Bluefoxicy

Hi.

Kay.  :)

Welcome to the Wikipedia

Here are some links I find useful

• Wikipedia:Policy Library
• Wikipedia:Cite your sources
• Wikipedia:Verifiability
• Wikipedia:Wikiquette
• Wikipedia:Conflict resolution
• Wikipedia:Brilliant prose
• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
• Wikipedia:Pages needing attention
• Wikipedia:Peer review
• Wikipedia:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense
• Wikipedia:Village pump
• Wikipedia:Boilerplate text

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~.

Cheers, Sam [Spade] 05:43, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Message For You!

True to my word, I am leaving you a message! I hope we can talk again sometime. :-D Mike H 02:21, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

My, oh, my, you just have a penchant for discussion, don't you? Mike H 15:12, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

PaX on Debian

Zocky tells me you've got some question about $topic... mail me if you like. I know some people who know some people. :) --Shallot 06:48, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think I got anything. My nickname on freenode is "Joy", you can try that too... --Shallot 14:12, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A tip

Blue - FYI, you should sign all your comments on Wikipedia with ~~~~. On the featured article candidate nomination for PaX, there's a lot of unisigned comments which I assume are yours, but without going through the page history it's impossible to tell. It makes it a lot easier for the rest of us to know who's saying what. →Raul654 20:18, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

I'll do so.  :) --Bluefox Phoenix Lucid 16:41, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

re comment on PAX nomination

Blue, I'll be glad to help with the article with a view toward improving it for featured status. Modulo time available, and with only a general knowledge of the project. I'm generally familiar with OS security dodges (or at least with quite a few) and may be able to provide some general perspective. I can certainly make suggestions as to article structure, narrative arc, and phrasing generally. If you're willing to put up w/ such limited help, let's have at it. ww 16:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Re your material on comparison of PaX with ES. The material is good. See my response in the featured article candidate page. Thanks for your work. - Taxman 22:33, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Template new spoilers

I have moved your "Template new spoilers" to User:Bluefoxicy/Template new spoilers, as you accidently created it in the main namespace, not the template namespace (you forgot the ":" in "Template new spoilers"). You can play around with it now already - just put {{User:Bluefoxicy/Template new spoilers}} on a page. However I'd suggest you discuss your proposal on Template talk:Spoiler before you actually use it in an article, or move it to the Template-namespace. andy 07:44, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Barnstar

For the work you did bringing PaX to featured article status, I award you this barnstar. Thanks, and keep up the good work. →Raul654 06:37, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

Hey hey, I had lotsa help, as noted on Talk:PaX, but thanks ^_^ --John Moser 22:45, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Peer review?

Hi, do you still want PaX listed on peer review now that it is a Featured Article? Peer review needs some cleaning up to make way for comments for other articles. If you don't specifically want the listing to stay there, can you remove it please? Thanks, and good work on the article. - Taxman 21:56, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

Edit attribution

Hi. Edits from 68.33.185.81 have now been reattributed to you. Regards — Kate Turner | Talk 07:56, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

Word of advice

Writing about someone with world-record long fingernails is fine. Making that article into a barb at other users isn't so hot. Might I ask you to please re-edit your contribution before it's removed again as nonsense? Thanks much.  :) - Lucky 6.9 08:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Request for edit summary

When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labelled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:

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== Pronunciation of Debian =he was so fat )

Stirling Engine Animation

Thanks for the help on how to get the animation smooth. Frames 1 and 3 turned out fuzzy, I assume because I had to scale them down. At least it doesn't jump around. I also slowed it down. You can find it here. --SuperCow 22:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

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Ingo Molnár

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PaX is listed at FAR

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AfD nomination of Dick Wertheim

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Klingon Wikibook

Bluefoxicy: I've been adding stuff to the Klingon Wikibook, and noticed that you were one of the most frequent contributors (a few years ago, anyway). So come on back! (please). --Bozwaldo (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Learn to Play Go

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If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. -- mitchsurp -- (talk) 17:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Ctrl+Alt+Del/Penny Arcade

Since I couldn't fit a proper explanation in the edit summary, I thought I'd elaborate here. With regard to your recent additions to Kinect, there are a couple of things to note, so I will go through it point by point.

"Kinect has taken frequent ribbing by various gaming news sites such as Penny Arcade and Ctrl-Alt-Del." This first part has a few problems. First, it is written in informal language (ribbing isn't exactly an encyclopædic term); this is a minor gripe though.

Second, neither site is a gaming news site; they are webcomics. That is not to say that they are non-notable (they are in this case but I'll come on to that later) but it is inaccurate and misleading to label them as such.

Finally, the source you provided (a CAD strip) isn't an appropriate source to show anything other than the character (Ethan) in the comic "thinks" something. From a personal perspective, it is fair to deduce that Tim Buckley feels the same way about Kinect, but to include such a conclusion in a Wikipedia article would constitute original research/synthesis.

"Tycho Brahe volunteers the introspection, "I'd say that enthusiast gamers are singularly bad at predicting broad market success. If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?"" This part isn't too bad, but is out of context. The quote provided doesn't even mention Kinect and is more about the enthusiast press (and gamers) in general. It may be notable if provided in context, but not as-is.

Now to the issue of notability. Generally a site is only considered notable for a reception section if:

1. they are one of a few "major" sources (CAD and PA are not… heck even Joystiq and Kotaku aren't)
2. they provide some specific insight/commentary that is lacking from other reviews AND are at least considered a reliable, noteworthy source (Joystiq, Kotaku and PA would fit into this category, CAD would be dubious).

As such, the PA quote could be included as long as it was presented properly (just calling it Penny Arcade would be fine rather than labelling it as a news site, which is false) and is presented in a form that is relevant to Kinect specifically rather than simply to game reviews/reviewers. Something as simple as the CAD addition would probably not even qualify as noteworthy from one of the "big" sites (Game Informer, IGN etc) without some elaboration.

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

Alphathon™ (talk) 17:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I am certainly not saying that anything from CAD or PA are not usable within the article, only that they aren't in the way you added them. This is a fairly difficult issue to explain so bear with me.

I am not saying that their opinions are invalid because they are primarily web-comics (PA has certainly grown into a more general gaming site, but as I see it they are still a comic first and foremost). What I am saying there is that it is false to label them (CAD especially) as gaming news sites. Assuming that was the only issue, I'd have left the edit mostly alone and simply removed the news sites title (to something more like "Penny Arcade and Ctrl+Alt+Del did not review the device as favourably [as the previously mentioned reviewers]"). There is no reason to mis-label them as news sites unless to try and raise their credibility (which PA at least certainly doesn't need).

The problem is though that it was not the only issue. The CAD thing is definitely not notable (a negative or positive opinion alone isn't notable from any source without expansion or it being part of a trend etc, and in that case it is the trend that is notable, not the single opinion). Anyone can show specific sources to show that something is either good or bad, so without some additional commentary its inclusion is meaningless. Also, unless reasons are given the whole section is fairly pointless (unless you list every single person who has either a negative or positive opinion, which is impractical at best).

As for the Penny Arcade addition, I can see that it may well be relevant and that it was a quote from a discussion/review about Kinect. The problem with that is that it wasn't talking about Kinect but about reviews/reviewers, which without the rest of the review is not relevant. The fact that is is sourced is irrelevant, as it needs to make sense within the article. That doesn't mean that the whole article needs to be quoted, only that the quotation made was not appropriate.

To help explain, here is an except from your post:

"Tycho Brahe volunteers the introspection, "I'd say that enthusiast gamers are singularly bad at predicting broad market success. If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?""

Now here it is paraphrased:

Tycho said "I don't think gamers are a good judge of success of a thing, so if we don't like something, does that mean it is good?"

You should be able see the issue - it in no way makes reference to the Kinect, or even the reviews/reviewers for that matter. The main issue is the context in which it has been included - it has been added as simply a quote, which on its own doesn't actually say anything about the Kinect. Now if the section around it were changed from "Tycho Brahe volunteers the introspection" to something more like "Although he reviewed the device poorly, Penny Arcade's Tycho Brahe doesn't think the gaming press are good judges of the device, saying" it would at least be slightly relevant (although I wouldn't use that wording in an article). Heck, even removing the bit about him reviewing it poorly would work. The thing is it still says little about what he actually thinks of Kinect. A better way to go about it would be to avoid quoting all together and simply paraphrase the article.

I haven't read the article on purpose so as to not inject meaning into the quote (anything I have said is based on what your edit contained and having already seen the CAD comic) - the Wikipedia page has to make sense from the point of view of someone who hasn't read the article and shouldn't rely on them following the citation (a citation is kinda like saying "Don't believe/trust me? Here's the proof", not "this is an excerpt from this article which you should read for more info"). As such, you need to put the quote in context unless it is self explanatory.

Alphathon™ (talk) 16:24, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

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Media:Clinton-vegan-powerband.jpg

Hi, I was just wondering where you found this picture that was sourced to the EPA -- I was unable to locate it on their web site. Thanks A13ean (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit: whoops, just found the LA times article, thanks A13ean (talk) 14:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

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Anita Sarkeesian

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Speedy deletion nomination of Hacking: The Art of Exploitation

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Your contributed article, Garden window

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The Comparison Chart to Comparison of Electoral Systems

Hi, just letting you know that this edit was reverted because you changed the color on "Scoring." Now I admit I have some strong feelings about this change, and admittedly, I'm biased, so I'd like to hear your perspective on this change. ⸺RandomStaplers 03:03, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I need to get around to making that column all gray, after a discussion on the IRC channel. It hadn't occurred to me to use a neutral color. Generally, people recognize solid colors as stronger than washed-out, and they recognize green as good and red as bad. In the literature, cardinal voting rules are considered non-viable, and occasionally score voting advocates comment that they're treated like climate change deniers in social choice theory academia; as the table gives an impression that one of these is better than the other, I had aligned it to this view from the literature. It's either appropriate to shade them as such or to not shade them at all. John Moser (talk) 13:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

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August 2022

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Benford's law, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Youtube is not a reliable source EvergreenFir (talk) 21:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I see:

Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources ***with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy***. This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of ***reliable authors***, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves. The following examples cover only some of the possible types of reliable sources and source reliability issues, and are not intended to be exhaustive. ***Proper sourcing always depends on context***; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.

The data is available, and has been analyzed. The Youtube video in question is published by an author who is well-respected for mathematical expertise and reliable analysis. Each source is individually judged, not subject to your blanket judgment of the media type.

The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. John Moser (talk) 21:29, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

See what they say at WP:RSN if you don't believe me. Youtube has not editorial oversight and is not consider appropriate as a source for anything other than WP:ABOUTSELF EvergreenFir (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Then neither is arXiv, anything published by any independent "think tank" like the Economic Policy Institute, or anything published by any news media outlet, as none of these face rigorous peer review outside their own organization; and in the case of news media outlets, they don't even rigorously support their own analyses. As well, many books cited on many articles are not published by peer-reviewed clearing houses. John Moser (talk) 21:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

From WP:SELFPUB:

elf-published works are sometimes acceptable as sources, so self-publication is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to automatically dismiss a source as "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". While many self-published sources happen to be unreliable, the mere fact that it is self-published does not prove this. A self-published source can be independent, authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, and expert-approved.

It's nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you're trying to portray it, and it leans in my favor to say the least. John Moser (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Go ask RSN if you need to hear it from someone else EvergreenFir (talk) 22:00, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, welcome to the problem of trying to find good reliable sources for Wikipedia articles. If you think that your Youtube video is a viable WP:SPS, then please bring it up at the reliable sources noticeboard, which is staffed by Wikipedia editors who have also noodled on this issue for more than a moment.

The broad issue here is that YouTube allows for arbitrary user-submitted content, so it is largely impossible to make good, generalizable claims about the validity and the provenance of information that shows up there. Nothing stops me from making a YouTube video about Benford's law, but there are many independent barriers to my publishing a similar view in the pages of The Economist.

Furthermore, the subject of interpreting Benford's law vis a vis election results is fraught with pitfalls both analytical and rhetorical, so we don't just want a good source on the subject, we would prefer the best possible source. Protonk (talk) 22:03, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's the "extraordinary claims" thing. Notably, the claim made is that a different application of Bedford's law to the same data (in this case, analyzing the last pair of digits) produces no fraud for Biden but massive evidence of fraud for Trump, and is also invalid—meaning the same tool can be put to the same data and produce different results, i.e. you can manipulate the data to get the narrative you want. That's not an extraordinary claim (whereas claiming that this application is "actually correct" and thus Trump did commit massive fraud would be extraordinary). His explanation of why this fails is more than just "but it's wrong," he examines what precisely causes it to fail, how it fails, and why it fails that way—as in, why the failure mode look even more severe for Trump than for Biden. This leaves little room for manipulative analytical and rhetorical analysis, to say the least.

Further, WP:SELFPUB does mention that in some cases, the particular information may just not be published in an academic journal or other source. I'm skeptical to how much value The Economist would see in publishing further analysis, whereas it can be argued that the abuse of a tool on the same data in different manners can allow one to fish out completely opposing narratives, both faulty, seems encyclopedic. A debate over how encyclopedic that is is one thing; a debate over whether this would be considered an appropriate source for a claim that's verifiably correct is another. John Moser (talk) 22:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

The issue isn't manipulative analytical or rhetorical actions (though that is always a worry) but simply erroneous ones. Benford's law is deceptively complex and does not (despite our ability to couch it in pithy terms) lend itself to straightforward analysis. In this case, as someone has already pointed out in the talk page, there isn't really an application of Benford's law to "last" digits of a number--the law is mostly interested in first digits (and to a markedly lesser extent second and third), "last" digits aren't really of interest especially since they are more often than not the result of a truncation or rounding process. Protonk (talk) 22:50, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe. Second digit I've seen, also in the same paper:

A second example illustrates a less formal type of theory we deem essential for evaluating any proposed forensic indicator of fraud. We refer here to the argument of Berber and Scacco (2008) for the relevance of looking at the last and next to last digits of vote tallies.

There are also papers that dispute that 2BL is even related to Benford's law, basically asserting that Benford's law applies to the first digit, singular, and that examining second digits is silly and pointless. Applying the analysis to last digits is not unprecedented in the literature though (it also appears to be complete trash).

Truncation and rounding are valid problems in some cases (e.g. bad accounting, or IRS tax returns maybe since they round to the dollar), but this is about vote tallies and so that argument's a bit weaker in context; at the same time, the context is that the analysis is invalid for this use so whatever, not important here. John Moser (talk) 23:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

2nd, 3rd, and 4th digit results exist and do (we think! as you note there's still a bit of theoretical mystery) stem from the same process that produces 1st digit outcomes, but the distance from equipotential is smaller and smaller as you move away from the first digit. However, there is no special characteristic of 'last' digits which come from Benford's law. There are other analyses which can be applied to the last digit of a number to learn some things about the process which generated the number but I'm much less sure those are connected to a law of first digits.

Either way, it's important to insist on reliable sources on the subject ESPECIALLY because there is so much potential for confusion even in a purely mathematical realm. Adding in questions of fraud, politics and tabulating election results and there is an even higher chance for confusion or misrepresentation. It's also worth noting that we don't need to be in a rush to update our encyclopedia article on a mathematical relationship with information/speculation about a recent(ish) election. There is no deadline and we can afford to be patient. Protonk (talk) 01:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Conversation at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC:_Evaluation_of_self-published_sources doesn't even have anyone suggesting something isn't a reliable source because "it's YouTube" and the conversation has entirely supported the source as valid, with one comment suggesting SPS may address topics that don't meet a standard of contribution to the field appropriate for an academic journal (i.e. it may be correct and rigorous, but not something that would merit appearing in a prestigious research periodical), and another pointing out that the SPS has a book published and that publication doesn't need to be an academic source. Whether the information belongs in the article is another matter; but the validity of the source isn't even in question. John Moser (talk) 20:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

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