Gorwel2
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Happy editing! Nick Moyes (talk) 22:29, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
August 2020
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Hello, I'm Synoman Barris. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of your recent contributions —specifically this edit to Rhosneigr—because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Help desk. Thanks. Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 16:37, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I've changed it back. I live in the village and it's helpful to have the correct names (along with English versions at times).
- Unfortunately that isn't how the English Wikipedia works. Here English names take precedence and we don't use double naming of both Welsh and English version. There have ben many discussions over the years and some of these may still be on the relevant talk pages such as at Talk:Aberdyfi (was Aberdovey and there was a move it back to that name) and Bala Lake amongst others. You can see that at Bala Lake I tried to get consensus about moving it to Llyn Tegid but without success. However we do have some success such as Ynys Llanddwyn. Just changing things against consensus will result in a more entrenched position. It is better to start a discussion at one or two key articles to persuade others of the justification for change. Velella Velella Talk 23:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Sorry. Just seen this. What do you mean by consensus? As mentioned in my edit, there are several pages on Enlish-language Wikipedia where the name appears in one language with an English translation. I'm not even sure that 'Holyhead Mountain' is an official name in this case either. It's a good job I ddidn't add English versions of the names of the beaches and lake otherwise the Welsh ones would then have been removed.
PS. I won't make any other amendments to avoid going around in circles but I would appreciate an explanation regarding what you mean by consensus and what you mean by 'we'. Thanks.
- "We" in this context is the accepted position of the editors of Wikipedia as determined by discussion and consensus. A great deal of this is written down as rules, policies, procedure and guidance but it all derives from (often heated) discussions on talk pages. Have a look at the manual of style for example. Because it all derives from consensus arrived at by discussion, theoretically anything could be changed but a great deal is so well accepted that getting things changed can be very difficult. In cases like this. most editors will rely on reliable English language sources to determine what is best and also on what is commonly in use. Ordnance survey maps are regarded as reliable sources as are the English media such as the BBC, the press etc. Have a look at some of the discussions about naming conventions in articles about Welsh places such as those I pointed to in my previous post. There is also a Welsh wikipedia where the naming conventions rely on Welsh sources which you would be very welcome to make contributions. Regards Velella Velella Talk 08:44, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Gorwel2, you are invited to the Teahouse!
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Hi Gorwel2! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. We hope to see you there!
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Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!
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Please note that all old questions are archived after 2-3 days of inactivity. Message added by Nick Moyes (talk) 22:28, 18 August 2020 (UTC). (You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{teahouse talkback}} template).
Further to my reply to you at the Teahouse, can I just add that you referred in one of your edit summaries to potentially "being stuck in an endless loop" of editing and re-editing to make an article look the way you want it to look. That would not actually happen as you came extremely close to being blocked for WP:EDITWARRING. If you want to avoid being blocked (even when making what you feel is a justifiable edit to meet your objectives) the best advice I, as an administrator here, can give a newcomer like yourself who clearly cannot be expected to understand all our ways immediately is to "drop the stick" and discuss the issues on the article's talk page before attempting to make repeat edits that you have been told are not acceptable. Your actions were so disruptive that another administrator had to step in and protect the article for a while, so your actions have had the consequences of stopping both yourself and many other editors from improving the article until that protection period expires. If this ever happens again, you can expect to be blocked from editing. But I'm sure you've now come to appreciate the message, and I'm sorry your first experienced here has been rather more complicated than you had anticipated. Please ensure that you also communicate with other editors on English Wikipedia in English, and be aware that, with only certain limeted exceptions, we do not allow one person to create and use more than one account here as this is regarded as WP:SOCKPUPPETRY. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 22:43, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- Re: "we do not allow one person to create and use more than one account here as this is regarded as WP:SOCKPUPPETRY."Why are you telling me this? It's like you are insinuating something!
- Re: "Please ensure that you also communicate with other editors on English Wikipedia in English". I'm new here, but haven't seen this policy either. It would appear to be counter to legislation so let me know if it actually is a policy so that I can follow it up.
- We didn't get stuck in an endless loop because, as I said. I'd refrain from commenting until I saw the policy, which I still can't find. I've put this down now awaiting more discussion with a couple of official bodies regarding the relationship between the Welsh language and the English-language version of Wikipedia.
- Hello Gorwel2. I was telling you those things so that you were informed. I advised you that we do not allow one person to manage more than one account here because that is the situation. Your interaction with a newly created editor User:ITKSIRFON and the similar nature of both sets of edit summaries looked very much like those we see when one new editor creates a second new account to back up their editing activities, and pretends to interact with them as if they were a different person. You are free to take that as an insinuation if you wish; I simply told you the facts. I will also tell you that certain admins (see WP:CHECKUSER) have the technological tools to investigate and block any accounts where evidence such as that is presented which suggest they might be operating outside our rules, per WP:MULTIACCOUNT. That may not apply to you; but my feeling was that it might well be so, and thus you were politely advised of our rules. It seemed much more pleasant than dropping on a newcomer from a great height with a direct accusation, or initiating an investigation.
- Yes, it is clear you are new here - everyone has to start sometime, I get that - and, as such, it is common for experienced editors like myself to stop by to advise them of our guidelines if their actions show they don't quite know how things are done yet. On English Wikipedia we expect editors to be communicating in English because this is a collaborative project between English-speaking editors. If you want chapter and verse on that, see WP:ENGLISHPLEASE. One country's legislation on what language(s) may/must be used in that country has absolutely no relevance here whatsoever (see also WP:NOLEGALTHREATS for related topics).
- Your last point was a little unclear, but please read WP:EDITWARRING, WP:BRD and WP:3RR to understand what we expect if someone has a different idea of what is best for an article than the majority of editors. We edit by consensus, and so editing 'in a loop' to get one's way just results in a block for the warring party. See also WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I agree with you that we do indeed have a lot of policies and guidelines that new editors are expected to abide by, but which they may not yet know about. But, just as in law, ignorance is no excuse, so you may well find other editors dropping by to politely advise you if you make mistakes, just as I did. That's how things work here, so there's no need for a new editor who makes simple mistakes to be upset or defensive. The relationship between cy-wiki and en-wiki is one where we are each independent of one another, and each applies its community rules in the way its community has agreed upon. We do not set rules for Welsh Wikipedia, or vice-versa.
- Should you wish to engage with me further, or seek additional clarification, you may either post here - though please ensure you do so next time in a way whereby I am actually alerted by a notification next time (see WP:PING). Alternatively you may post directly on the bottom of my talk page, which results in an automatic notification, even if you fail to do the two essential things of including my username and signing your post within the same saved edit. Best wishes, Nick Moyes (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2020 (UTC)