Gramaic

I as a user of Wikipedia think, there should be a "History of the Mediterannean," that describes the whole Mediterannean region of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.

Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Gramaic, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Alai 22:30, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! If you like the idea of an article about the history of the Mediterannean area then why not start it and invite others to join you? George 22:48, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

History of the Mediterannean

Taking George's advise, I've started a new article called History of the Mediterannean. If anybody is interested in this new article I have started, please feel free to check that page out. If anybody wants to edit or add to that page, please go ahead. Mediterannean history is very important.--Gramaic 03:44, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Update: I have discovered that there already is an article on Mediterranean History, and the article is History of the Mediterranean region. The article I have created now relocates to this existing Mediterranean History article.---Gramaic 07:50, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pan Aryanism

What's with the blanking and recreation of this article? Having a hard time making up your mind? I almost tagged your article for speedy deletion because it was empty. Need help? Rl 19:39, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Yes, this is very confusing. If you want it deleted, please be clear about what's going on: blank but with a history is not acceptable. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:01, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

My apologies, I forgot to comment in the summary. I've been thinking that we don't need an article about Pan Aryanism, the information I wrote about Pan Aryanism in the White supremacy article is more than enough. So please, delete the Pan Aryanism article, and again sorry for the confusion.--Gramaic 01:22, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No problem. I have turned it into a redirect. If you want it deleted, you can tag it as speedy (db|The sole author reckons it's covered elsewhere or something). Rl 06:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Rl. I think it's a very wonderful idea that you made Pan Aryanism a redirect to White supremacy.--Gramaic 07:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Syria, Lebanon and Beirut

I realize you didn't ask me...but the name Syria is from the name of the city called Tyre in English, S.ur in Arabic, Tyrus in Greek, Tzor in Hebrew, which was apparently Tzur in Phoenician, and meant "rock". The historical name for the area that now comprises the modern nation-state of Syria is actually Aram (whence the language of its inhabitants before the muslim invasion, Aramic) (Far northern modern Syria was formerly Ashur, viz. Assyria, from the Greek name, which was modelled by analogy with Syria). So anyways, technically, Syria is "Phoenicia", although the current nation-state has nothing to do with the ancient Phoenicians, and indeed covers very little of the are of ancient Phoenicia, and a lot of area that was well beyond the influence of the Phoenicians. Lebanon is from the Hebrew word for white, "Labhan", whence the name of the perpetually snow-covered mountain in Hebrew, Levanon. Berut is an ancient Phoenician city, and if I recall correctly, its name means "Cypress" (a kind of tree). Tomer ^TALK 02:47, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Phoenicia

I didn't think you meant to put me in the wrong, but in general when altering a previous comment that has already been responded to it is much better to strike through it (like this) than simply to alter it invisibly. It makes it much clearer what is going on. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:28, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Christian emigration

I have created a new article that is called Christian emigration. It focuses on Christian migration that is mainly from the Middle East, Indian Subcontinent and the Far East (Far Eastern countries such as China). So if anybody wants to visit that article, or add more useful information to it, be my guest.--Gramaic 01:00, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Famous White supremacists

When I first saw White_supremacy#Famous_White_supremacists I worried, fearing the potential POV such a list represents. But then I started checking out the entries and in each case I had to agree with its inclusion. I reluctantly agree to the merit of having such a list, but I enthusiastically applaud your care in assembling it. Good work. Cheers, -Willmcw 09:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Willmcw. Just doing my best in contributing to the articles here at Wikipedia. :-) --Gramaic 00:29, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

White Supremacy

I added Miller and Lindstedt because they are (or were in the case of Lindstedt, who is currently in jail during his trial) quite active on the net.

IIRC Alex Linder isn't on the list. Somebody, perhaps me if my laziness goes away, should add him, since he runs Vanguard News Network last I checked, or at least the forum.

And it is true, they hate each other. Lindstedt and Miller especially, it sort of felt unfair to have one and not the other, so I did both. I think Lindstedt once challenged Miller to a fistfight in front of a Wal-Mart. It might have been the other way around.

The Phora

I honestly think the Phora doesn't count as a white supremacist site. Chuck it in with the white nationalists, or call it "neutral". If a bunch of anti-racists wanted to show up, and didn't just generally behave in an abusive fashion, they would be allowed to post there, I believe.

--Edward Wakelin 02:33, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Animated GIF

Do you really need an animated GIF in your signature? I find it very distracting: it makes it hard to focus to read surrounding text. It seems to me to introduce the opposite of accessibility: I know from studies on web design that it will make it very hard for anyone with even mild ADD or dyslexia to read that portion of the page. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:29, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for killing that. BTW, non-animated images do not present a comparable problem (though, in a context like this it's hard to make a case that they add value). -- Jmabel | Talk 02:26, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
• Thanks for removing the animated gif. I appreciate the enthusiasm though! Cheers, -Willmcw 04:27, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

Didn't know that the animated gif brings problems. Had I known that the graphic emoticons were a problem, I wouldn't even think about putting them up.--Gramaic 28 June 2005 04:15 (UTC)

Not to worry. No harm done. Cheers, -Willmcw June 28, 2005 04:25 (UTC)

Whites

Hi Poli. I've noticed that you've inserted an image of Mariska Hargitay into this article. Don't you think you're being a little too bold, because everybody knows what a white person looks like. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 07:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello Gramaic. To tell you the truth I just got by that article and I thought it could benefit aesthetically from an image. I had no intention of being that bold about the characteristics of a white person, but now that you named it, I think you are right. I just need to think about something better to improve the article. Thanks, Poli (talk • contribs) 08:08, 2005 July 11 (UTC)

Nationalist Movement

I'm still getting up to speed on this group. Your participation in this and related articles would improve them, I'm sure. My initial 'take ' is that it is a one-man show, and that the one man (or a close associate) is trying to get additional attention for the group with vanity articles. Anyway, thanks for your contributions. Cheers, -Willmcw 11:19, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Will. I'll see what I can do with that article, I've just put it in my watchlist. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:52, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

list of white supremacists

Gramaic, I've added a few obvious folks to the list (Jefferson Davis, Hitler). However, I'm still not sure a list of famous white supremacists is a great idea. White supremacy was pretty much the status quo assumption in the Western world from the 1600s to the mid-1900s, at least. Most any white person of note during that period could probably be described as a white supremacist (with a few notable exceptions, like John Brown and Eleanor Roosevelt). Any list by its nature is almost certainly going to both minimize the extent of the philosophy's sway and single out certain people unfairly and almost at random -- I mean, I've put Thomas Jefferson here simply because I've seen evidence that he was a white supremacist, but I'm pretty darn sure that virtually all the founding fathers were. I dunno -- you've creaed it now, and I'm not going to put it on Vfd or anything -- just thought you might want to think about whether this is really such a good idea..... (I've posted this message to both the white supremacist talk and list of white supremacist talk pages as well, which is probably more exposure than my prose really requires, but there you go....) NoahB 12:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

So, do you think it would be best if I put this article up for VfD? Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 07:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The term "white supremacist" has always bristled. Most people on the list would not, I guess, object to being called "white nationalists" or "white separatists". It is a small difference but one of great degree to some. And it really isn't limited to just those who, from Jefferson to Lincoln to (Mrs) Roosevelt, may have felt that western European or Anglo-Saxon culture was superior to others. Such a list would be too long to be of use. It'd be much better to list those who weren't. This article is (or should be) a list of those who sought to enforce or extend perceived differences between the races. While Jefferson, Lincoln and Roosevelt may have personally expressed supremacist leanings, they did not express primarily separatist views (Yes, Lincoln talked about repatriation to Africa, but did not pursue it.) For those reasons a "list of white nationalists (separatists)" may be a better, more focused article with most of the same names. - Willmcw 10:10, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

The "Lists" category

Please do not place any articles in Category:Lists. All articles should be placed in one of the sub categories. Thanks so much! -- Reinyday, 10 August 2005

---

You asked Why do the articles need to be put in sub categories?

The "Lists" category, like all categories, exists to help people find what they want. There are thousands of lists, so having them all in one category doesn't help people navigate. By separating them, people can find what they want, like Lists of people or Nature lists. Cheers. -- Reinyday, 11 August 2005

Hello Gramaic

Gramaic, I see that you have changed my introduction to "White" on the ==White people== page. I suppose that I can accept your definition as a standard U.S. government definition, but this is NOT the definition held by the American general public. If one calls himself an Arab, that almost invariably excludes him from being white. In fact, most Arabs I know don't like to be called white. They prefer the blanket term of Arab and/or Middle Eastern, in the same way that in America, white is a blanket term for Europeans. Also, Persians and Turks obviously like to be differentiated from Arabs, but still accept Middle-Eastern. In fact, Arabs and Persians are pushing the U.S. census bureau to add a 'Middle-Eastern' race category to future censuses. Your thoughts?...user: Antonucc

Hi there, Antonucc. Actually Arabs, Turks and Persians in the United States prefer to be called White. Yes, there are Middle Easterners in the U.S. that refer to themselves as non-White, but only a minority view themselves as such. For example, in the United States many Italians say that they and all other Italians and Southern Europeans are non-White, but does that mean Italians, Greeks and Southern Europeans are non-White. About the Arabs and Persians trying to make the U.S. census put a Middle Eastern race category to future censuses, it's only a small group of people who are trying to make such a measure. So, Arabs, Turks, Persians and even Hebrews in the U.S. consider themselves just as White as the Germans, English, Irish, Italians, Slavs, etc. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 19:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Alex Linder

Regarding Alex Linder, he's one of the people formerly associated with Bill White (activist). Such people have been the particular targets of bad edits. So when an editor, possibly Linder himself, says "deleted subjective slurs which strongly deviate from NPOV, and deleted unsubstantiated gossip", it is quite possible that he is correct. White inserted slurs and gossip in many articles and I'm not sure that we got it all cleaned out. He edited as Baxter2 and as an anon before that. There are plenty of bad things that can be said about Linder, but we should only have the real ones. If you have a chance can you review that recent edit [1] and check to see if any of it looks like gossip or uncalled-for slurs? Thanks, -Willmcw 10:20, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Expediency

(This is just a thought, not a campaign.) I've always considered the distinctions between White-supremacists/separatists/nationalists to be discernible yet relatively insignificant. However, such distinctions are important to the people who hold those views. I'm inclined to think that moving "nordish.net" from the "White supremacist" article to the "White nationalist" article might settle things down and bring Wikipeace. I see that there's a nice set of similar links already lined up in the "nationalist" article. Why not add it over there? It seems silly to keep restoring the link time and again in "supremacist" if a slightly different designation will make everyone happy-ish. Cheers, -Willmcw 10:27, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think we should add "nordish.net" to the White nationalism article. But, by removing it permenantly from the White supremacy article, I'm a little worried that this will give other anonymous editors from these kinds of websites the idea that if they keep deleting certain links from the article, they will succeed. Yes we should add "The Nordish Portal" to the the WN article, but I don't think it will be good in our part if we removed them from the WS article. Anyway, do what you think is right for the article. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I see your point. Let's do it that way. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:39, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you

See you around at Mt. Sac. T-1000 20:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales to Attend San Diego Meetup on October 18 2005

Hello, Jimbo Wales will be in San Diego to attend OOPSLA and has agreed to come by and visit with the San Diego wikipedians. If you are interested, you will find more info on my talk page. Johntex\^talk 00:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Mootstormfront

I may be mitaken but I think it may be back up now. Btw, are you/were you registered on there? XYaAsehShalomX 15:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello XYaAsehShalomX. I just checked the site, and it is still unavailable. Unfortunately, I have never registered at Mootstormfront, but I do hope to register there pretty soon. :) Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 03:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Damour

Just checked the new Damour page and I think you handled it just right. The article should be there but it should include information on the town and only brief mention of the massacre. I say leave it as you have it and we'll hope somebody fills in more general info on the town itself. Regards, Babajobu 22:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You're right. In that case we'll do it that way. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 23:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Mark Gabriel

Hi Gramiac, this was just an anon reviewer on Amazon, so we can't use it in the article, but if you're interested, you can find it here. If you scroll down, it's the review from Jeremy Block, and it says: "Now the bad news: This book is written in a horrible, inarticulate form. He writes as if he is a 10 year old student, with the most unenlightening thoughs [sic] and descriptions. It may be one of the worst books I ever read in this regard. For those wanting an insider account of how Muslims may think of Jews from someone who is from an Arab/Muslim country, it doesnt get any better than this. However, make sure you have the patience and sense of humor to sit through this guys style of writing, because it is quite bad." Note that I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this. Haven't read it, so I've no idea. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I really appreciate it. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 02:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Syria, History of Syria, Syrian occupation of Lebanon

Hey Gramaic. I know you are a contributor to Syria-related topics so I thought you would be interested in what's happening on these articles. A certain right-wing anti-Syrian has been making highly POV edits about how Syrian workers "colonized" Lebanon. If you could revert his edits it would be appreciated. Yuber^(talk) 00:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Yuber, long time no see. :) I've just put Syrian occupation of Lebanon in my watchlist, and as you can see I've just created the "Compare" sub-section in that article, which is just below the "See also" section. As I said in my summary, "hoopefully this will end the edit war." When I have more time, I will look into those articles more. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 03:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Did you know?

Paul Vogel (talk · contribs). -Willmcw 08:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I had no idea. I'm hardly familiar with this user. So the person we've been having this dispute with for quite a while is actually Paul Vogel himself? --Gramaic | Talk 09:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It almost certainly is - I don't know why I didn't think of it to begin with. Persistent reverting and a reverence for Pierce are trademarks of his. I can't imagine that there are many other people who care so much about cosmotheism. There's not much we can do since he uses dynamic IPs except revert freely and vprotect when necessary. He's been quiet for a while, but I see someone else spotted him in November. Yep, he's one of Wikipedia's legendary contributors. -Willmcw 10:05, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, it looks like I spoke too soon. I'd asked an expert, user:Mirv about it and he recently responded that he didn't think this guy is Vogel. Too erudite, apparently. Oh well, you'll get your chance I'm sure. BTW, have you seen User:Silsor/Neo-nazi watchlist? Cheers, -Willmcw 08:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, so it's not him afterall. Anyway, we should still keep on eye on Vogel and others like him. About User:Silsor/Neo-nazi watchlist, I've actually edited that page a few times, most recently adding Caucasoid and Mootstormfront to that list. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 09:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Removing Labels

Thanks for the welcome message! I have a dumb sounding queston but I haven't found the code to remove labels. I don't want to fix any thing and leave these up, and I can only find code to construct them in the first place. Can you help me? Veritas Liberum 23:21, 8 December 2005 (GMT)

Your very welcome! :) By labels, are you referring to the edit summaries? If you are, as far as I know, edit summaries can't be edited, changed or removed. --Gramaic | Talk 08:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Of interest

Hey Gramaic, from the previous discussions we had on the definitions of White (particularly the exlusion of Arabs outside the American context), I though you may find it interesting to know of recent events in Australia. As you probably have gathered, Arabs in Australia (the Lebanese to be specific, since they are the most numerous) are not White in popular or goverment definitions (unlike Italians or Greek which aren't white by the popular definition, they are wogs, but are white by the goverment definition).

Due to escalating ethnic violence in Australia, now would be a good time to review the press here to get an insight on race relations in Australia (particularly Whiteness). In the past week there has been an increase of violent attacks and hostitlity between white Australian and Arab Australians. As a result of the understanding of racial defenition here, "Racial tensions errupting" is a common title of most media here.

Here's an article of the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday which gives insight also on the popular Australian usages of both white and wog. By the way, in the article you will notice "Lebs and wogs" mentioned seperately, this is because Arabs here are de facto wogs, because technically the definition of "wog" also excludes Arabs (originally in Australia wogs were non-Whites from Europe only. Many wog purists still accept only this definition, rejecting the inclusion of Arabs and other Near Easterners).

A Sydney mayor says he understands the sentiments behind a text message call for vigilante behaviour at one of his shire's beaches. But Sutherland Shire mayor Kevin Schreiber has called for calm and says violence is not the answer. A major police operation has started around Cronulla Beach after two violent incidents in the past week, including an attack on two lifeguards on Sunday. Yesterday, a brawl erupted at the beach when a gang of youths allegedly turned on a media crew. As a result, email messages have been reported calling for vigilante action. One message circulating in the shire urges "Aussies" [white Australians] to take revenge against "Lebs and wogs". "Bring your mates and let's show them that this is our beach and they are never welcome," the message says. Today, Mr Schreiber called for NSW Premier Morris Iemma to meet with the local community in an effort to solve the problems. "I can understand the sentiments and can see what some of the people in the shire are trying to achieve, but this energy needs to be redirected into a collective voice of the people not into a gang of outlaws," Mr Schreiber said in a statement. "We need the NSW premier to lead high level community discussions that can bring about a peaceful solution. "And this is how angry shire residents can respond - by voicing their concerns so the politicians take action." Mr Schreiber said locals should allow police to continue the job of investigating the recent violent incidents. He said they should not take the law into their own hands. "We hold grave concerns that further outbreaks of violence could erupt whilst this text message is in circulation," Mr Schreiber said. He said the beach hosted children's activities on Sunday and any violent behaviour could endanger "thousands of innocent children and beachgoers". Mr Iemma promised the "thugs" and "morons" responsible for recent violence will be brought to justice. He said violence at the beach would not be tolerated and said locals must let police do their job. "Place the trust in the police; they made some arrests, they had success, they made a breakthrough," Mr Iemma said. "Let the police finish the job and bring those thugs, those morons, to justice, but don't you take the law into your own hands." Stephen Leahy, rescue services manager for Surf Life Saving Sydney, said one message forwarded to him had urged vigilante style attacks. "It really is quite a strong message, encouraging Australian men to go to the beach on Sunday to act as vigilantes. It's nothing short of that," he told ABC Radio. "I'm led to believe there's a similar message sent to the Middle Eastern community to make sure that they're protected as well, through just force by numbers." Despite the recent violence, Mr Leahy said a weekend surf carnival, expected to attract 1000 nippers and their families, would go ahead. But he said extra precautions had been taken in case the situation erupted into violence. Mr Leahy said members of the Middle Eastern community had previously discussed fears that lifesavers might not rescue them if they got into trouble. "I'm more than happy to reassure anyone, irrespective of who you are, what colour you are, what creed or race or religion you are, is that if you're in trouble ... you will be looked after," he said. The Liberal state Member for Cronulla Malcolm Kerr also appealed to people to ignore the text message urging people to rally on Sunday. "We don't want to see that happening," Mr Kerr told ABC Radio. Police yesterday charged an 18-year-old man over the weekend attack on the two lifesavers. A 20-year-old man was also charged with malicious damage after a press photographer alleged he had his equipment damaged in the beach brawl yesterday. A Sydney mayor says he understands the sentiments behind a text message call for vigilante behaviour at one of his shire's beaches. But Sutherland Shire mayor Kevin Schreiber has called for calm and says violence is not the answer. A major police operation has started around Cronulla Beach after two violent incidents in the past week, including an attack on two lifeguards on Sunday. Yesterday, a brawl erupted at the beach when a gang of youths allegedly turned on a media crew. As a result, email messages have been reported calling for vigilante action. One message circulating in the shire urges "Aussies" to take revenge against "Lebs and wogs". "Bring your mates and let's show them that this is our beach and they are never welcome," the message says. Today, Mr Schreiber called for NSW Premier Morris Iemma to meet with the local community in an effort to solve the problems. "I can understand the sentiments and can see what some of the people in the shire are trying to achieve, but this energy needs to be redirected into a collective voice of the people not into a gang of outlaws," Mr Schreiber said in a statement. "We need the NSW premier to lead high level community discussions that can bring about a peaceful solution. "And this is how angry shire residents can respond - by voicing their concerns so the politicians take action." Mr Schreiber said locals should allow police to continue the job of investigating the recent violent incidents. He said they should not take the law into their own hands. "We hold grave concerns that further outbreaks of violence could erupt whilst this text message is in circulation," Mr Schreiber said. He said the beach hosted children's activities on Sunday and any violent behaviour could endanger "thousands of innocent children and beachgoers". Mr Iemma promised the "thugs" and "morons" responsible for recent violence will be brought to justice. He said violence at the beach would not be tolerated and said locals must let police do their job. "Place the trust in the police; they made some arrests, they had success, they made a breakthrough," Mr Iemma said. "Let the police finish the job and bring those thugs, those morons, to justice, but don't you take the law into your own hands." Stephen Leahy, rescue services manager for Surf Life Saving Sydney, said one message forwarded to him had urged vigilante style attacks. "It really is quite a strong message, encouraging Australian men to go to the beach on Sunday to act as vigilantes. It's nothing short of that," he told ABC Radio. "I'm led to believe there's a similar message sent to the Middle Eastern community to make sure that they're protected as well, through just force by numbers." Despite the recent violence, Mr Leahy said a weekend surf carnival, expected to attract 1000 nippers and their families, would go ahead. But he said extra precautions had been taken in case the situation erupted into violence. Mr Leahy said members of the Middle Eastern community had previously discussed fears that lifesavers might not rescue them if they got into trouble. "I'm more than happy to reassure anyone, irrespective of who you are, what colour you are, what creed or race or religion you are, is that if you're in trouble ... you will be looked after," he said. The Liberal state Member for Cronulla Malcolm Kerr also appealed to people to ignore the text message urging people to rally on Sunday. "We don't want to see that happening," Mr Kerr told ABC Radio. Police yesterday charged an 18-year-old man over the weekend attack on the two lifesavers. A 20-year-old man was also charged with malicious damage after a press photographer alleged he had his equipment damaged in the beach brawl yesterday.

I should point out that in Australia race is considered independantly from religious background. Thus an English Protestant, Irish Catholic, and German Ashkenazi Jew are all white. Meanwhile, an Iraqi Mizrahi Jew, a Syrian Muslim, and Lebanese Christian are not white, they are a seperate group. As a comparison, there are also Indian Muslims, Indian Christians, and Indian Jews, and they all are in the Indian group. An Indonesian Muslim, Filipino Catholic, and Thai Bhuddist are all in the Asian group. That's the Australian conocept. It is the Australian standard that racially categorises even Australia's Jewish community.

"The Sydney Jewish community is dynamic and vibrant, with many communal, social and religious institutions. This book investigates the Sephardic community of Sydney – their history, their experiences as new immigrants in a host society after arriving from traditional Moslem cultures, as well as the changes they have undergone since they arrived in Australia. The Sephardic community comprises about 5,000 of the 50,000 Jews in Sydney, whose majority reside in the eastern suburbs, in Sydney's multicultural inner city “ethnic belt”. Although the Sephardim share some cultural features with the Jewish majority, there are substantial differences: they emphasize their cultural heterogeneity. Their experiences are viewed through the prism of their relationship to both the Ashkenazim and the larger Anglo-Australian society. Their inability to acculturate and assimilate into the Ashkenazi and Australian groups contributes profoundly to their self-image and to ethnic marginalization."

"A negative ethnic identity and self-rejection, enhanced by rejection from the Ashkenazim and Australians, has a major impact on their everyday life and their perception of their social standing, especially on the younger Sephardic generation. This issue has been particularly relevant since 1988, when the Australian government moved to restrict Asian immigration. This became a media issue, with the [white] Ashkenazim taking the side of white Australians and seeing themselves as superior to the Afro-Asian Jewish Sephardim, who are viewed as “Asians” by both the [white] Ashkenazim and the white majority. The result is a sense of “double rejection”, which pervades this group’s political and social standing." Al-Andalus 06:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC).

Hi Al-Andalus. Thank you for this message. I've just read what you left me, and man that is pretty disturbing and sad. This makes the Bilal Skaf incident look very marginal. Let's pray that this violence, racism and hatred comes to an end very soon. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 09:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. What Skaf did was beyond belief! - Ta bu shi da yu 02:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Council of Conservative Citizens

You might be interested in the discussion at talk:Council of Conservative Citizens over what terms to use to describe that organization. Regardless, I hope you're having a nice holiday. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Will, I've just left a comment on that page. Thank you for sharing that with me. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for contributing. Cheers, -Willmcw 07:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Erwin Loh

This article was deleted as it failed to estabilish any reason why the subject was notable enouth to warrant an entry in an encyclopedia.--nixie 03:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Caucasoid

West Asia is not caucasoid because Egypt is in West Asia, and currently wiki disputes egyptians and some other groups in the west asian region origins. Other than Egyptians, take african israelis from ethiopia or and other places in africa. They are black but Israel recognizes them as jews so they are black people indeginous to Israel. There are also some Asian jews but tIsrael doesn't recognize them so I won't get into that. The point is there are a substanial number of people in West Asia who wiki does not define as caucasoid in West Asia that it would unfair to claim them as all Caucasoid. Also Yemen was part of an ethiopian empire for some time so thats just one more reason why it doesn't make sense to claim all of West Asia is caucasoid in origin. As well Somalians come from Yemen and they are considered negroid. This means there must have been a large number of indigenous negroid living in Yemen for some time. I won't speculate further if they were indegnous but there is too much evidence to claim all of wesr asia as caucasoid in indegnous.(--````)(Dualldual 01:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC))

Egypt is not in West Asia, it is in North Afica. All I know is that the definition of Caucasoid in the dictionary is in reference to the original people of Europe, West Asia, Indian sub-continent, and parts of North Africa. So how exactly does that violate NPOV? You say that there's a dispute on Wiki regarding Caucasoids in West Asia. Can you show me? Because, you're the only person I've seen on Wikipedia disputing the Caucasoid issue. Speaking of the mixture with Ethiopians, yes some West Asian Caucasoids have mixed with Ethiopians, but the original inhabitants of West Asia are Caucasoids. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 07:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

"Brown" usage

Hi. I noticed that, in the "Use of the term outside the United States" section of White (people), you removed "and Middle Easterners/North Africans" from the end of this passage:

Eventually, in the U.S.A, "black" came to denote African ancestry and "brown" became attributed to mixed-race Hispanics and South Asians (people of the Indian subcontinent). In Australia, on the other hand, "Black" denotes Aborigines and "Brown" came to denote South Asians and Middle Easterners/North Africans.

Your given reason for the deletion was

The only people I've seen refer to Middle Easterner and North Africans as "brown" are white supremacists.

I have not read this article in detail yet; but it is in my watch list because I want to read it fully and then monitor it. So I noticed your edit. And I must say that I question your edit, for two reasons:

1. Wikipedia edits should be made on the basis of something stronger that what the editor has or hasn't heard.

2. When an article, or a section of an article, is about use of the term, isn't it better to specify different groups' different usages of the term, rather than simply to operate on the basis of "Well, I've only ever heard group X use this term in this way; I dislike that group (or that group doesn't represent the majority), and so I'm just gonna remove all mention of that group's use of the term"? Imagine if there were a dictionary giving two definitions of the word jumper as a garment—one being the American definition (a kind of dress), the other being the British (a sweater)—, and an editor came along and said "I've only ever heard British people use jumper as a name for a sweater—and the U.S. has a much bigger population than the U.K., so let's just cut out the British definition."

Just two points to consider. I think this White (people) article could use a lot of improvement (I plan to work on it later); but I can at least suggest that your point might better have been made by adding something like "White supremacists also use 'Brown' to describe Middle Easterners and North Africans." Better to ADD specificity than simply to DELETE something that's too general. And, as I tried to convey in point 1, I think there should be more support for the possibly factual basis for your deletion than merely your own recollection of the only group you've heard use a term in a certain way.

I know it can be hard to judge tone of voice in written words; so I'll just end by saying none of this was written with hostility. :-)

I hope you're enjoying the start of spring. President Lethe 04:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

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'Antiochian Greeks' vs “Antiochian Greek Orthodox". Important Nuances

Dear Gramaic, One has to be careful here: I think your ‘merger’ of the two categories is unwarranted at this stage. I’m one of the original drafters of the “Antiochian Greeks” article and also one of the main contributors to the “Antiochian Greek Orthodox Christians” article, and I share some of your ideas and concerns.

BUT:

1) It’s true “not all Antiochian Greeks are Greek Orthodox”… but 98%+ of Anticohian Greeks are Greek Orthodox! The bulk of the remaining ≈ 2% being “Uniat” Greek Catholics = who belong to an offshoot of the Greek Orthodox community

More importantly 2) “Antiochian Greek Orthodox Christians” simply + CLEARLY means members of the “Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch and the East” = a (relatively) easy to define religious and ethno-cultural group… Things are more complicated with “Antiochian Greeks” which can EITHER be used as a mere synonym of “Antiochian Greek Orthodox Christians” = a rather recent convention, which, I personally, quite like… BUT it can still also be used in an older, much narrower sense.

Narrower geographically = limited to the Southern Turkish province of Hatay/Iskenderun ((+in the old days/before 1936, to a few adjacent villages/hamlets near Adana and Aleppo)).

Narrower ethically = limited strictly to the Greek-speaking direct descendants of European or Northwestern Anatolian Greeks who had come for the most part to Southern Turkey and Northern Syria/Lebanon AFTER the 17th century AD (and in many cases after the 18th century).

as opposed to the autochthonous “Greco-Syrian” or “Greco-Semitic” or “Syro-Lebanese” Byzantine “Rûm” Christians = descended from earlier, much older waves of gentile European Greek, Greco-Macedonian, Greco-Syrian, Hellenized Syrians, local/Syro-Cilician Hellenized Jewish, Cypriot and North African Hellenized Jewish, Galilean/Palestinian Hellenized Jewish and also gentile Hellenized Italian migrants...etc. Their descendants are called “Antiochian Greek Orthodox Christians” and “Antiochian Uniat Greek Catholic Christians” in modern English.

Hope it all makes sense

Hello, Gramaic. You have new messages at Gramaic's talk page.
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--B.Andersohn (talk) 12:07, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Antiochian Greeks/Antiochian Greek Orthodox

Please stop adding Tony Clement (his father is from Cyprus. The mother is Syrian Jewish) and do not delete population sources for Syria and Lebanon. MaronitePride (talk) 19:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Let's take this to Talk:Antiochian Greeks...

• Please answer to your or my talk page and without personal attacks. MaronitePride (talk) 19:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

You wrote: "Why do have a problem with Levantine Greeks identifying as Greeks??? Why do you keep changing Syriac to Ghassanid??? Antiochian Greeks are Greeks, not Arabs or 'Arab Christians...'"

For the Ghassanids there is a source that you keep deleting. If you were full Greeks why you do not speak Greek language and do not have Greek sounding surnames? Currently, most of you speak Levantine Arabic (Lebanese, Syrian) and all this makes you Arabic-speaking Christians. We Maronites, also belong to this category and we do not have any issues with this. (Of course, there is always an exception, especially far right Maronites). MaronitePride (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• The Ghassanid theory is propaganda. As for being 'full Greeks,' nobody is pure friend. Everybody is mixed...You also asked why we don't speak Greek or have Greek last names...Simple, Antiochian Greeks, along with the Syriacs have lost their language thanks to 1400 years of Arab occupation...A little bit after the 7th century Arab invasion, the Arabic language was imposed on the non-Arab indigenous population, the Arabs would even cut off the tongues of those who spoke Greek, Aramaic, and any other language besides the Arabic-language...We changed our last names to simply avoid persecution and discrimination from the Arabs...When the Arabs first invaded the Levant, the Roum didn't speak Arabic, they spoke Greek...The Arab invaders communicated with them through mediums, translators, and interpreters...The majority are Orthodox, but we have Antiochian Greeks that are not Orthodox, such as the Melkites...The external links are valid links...Levant Party is a legitimate political party that embraces the Antiochian Greek identity, and Operation Antioch is a a legitimate Antiochian Greek movement...Also speaking Arabic does not magically turn us into Arabs, in the same sense that speaking English does not magically turn us into Englishmen... Antiochian Greeks are ethnic Greeks, and are of Greek ancestry... Gramaic | Talk 19:55, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Really interesting comment! I have never seen something similar like this one.

You wrote "nobody is pure friend." But still you believe that "The Ghassanid theory is just propaganda."

"the Arabs would even cut off the tongues of those who spoke Greek, Aramaic, and any other language besides the Arabic-language...We changed our last names to simply avoid persecution and discrimination from the Arabs" Do you have sources for all these?

"Levant Party is a legitimate political party that embraces the Antiochian Greek identity, and Operation Antioch is a a legitimate Antiochian Greek movement" From what I see you seem to have far right views like some of our far right Maronites (ex. Phalangist party), or may be you just try to adjust within the United States without being viewed as Middle-eastern and instead to be Greek in order to reduce the discrimination possibilities.

BTW You could make an article for Levant Party and Operation Antioch.

Nevertheless, try to contribute to the article calmly without biased views, keep it multiple points not one-sided. And try to understand the views of others like me. Have a good time in sunny California. MaronitePride (talk) 20:29, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• • Yes, the Ghassanid theory is propaganda...It is used to force Arabism upon the natives of the Levant...
  • DNA testings of the Levant proves them be descendants of the pelasgians and that Corel-Syria is the same borders as the Greek Orthodox population of Greek descent. The ones east of the Orontes are Assyrians and, Aramean is not a real ethnicity according to any scholars. Nobody is using Antiochian Greek to avoid discrimination in the United States...Greekness of the Roum is a fact... For instance, take Apollodorus Of Damascus, and many philosophers from modern day Syria...They are documented as ethnic Greeks...Nobody is denying the Antiochian Greeks are Middle Eastern...They are Greeks from the Middle East... This view is not right or left wing, it is just facts my friend... Gramaic | Talk 21:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

"it is just facts my friend" Or facts based on your biased opinion, which see "the Ghassanid theory is propaganda" and accepts only facts that are close to your view.

Recent DNA tests of Lebanon proved, for example, that all Lebanese people have primary Phoenician DNA structure regardless of religious affiliation (that includes out brothers the Orthodox Christians). Crusaders' DNA also well represented within all Lebanese Christians including Orthodox, and small percentage within the Lebanese Muslims. In addition, most likely many Muslim Lebanese have Greek, Assyrian and whatever population occupied the area. All these shows to people like you and me that there is no pure ethnic or ethnoreligous group. MaronitePride (talk) 23:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• • A good amount of the Muslim population in the Levant are Islamized Greeks and Syriacs, I'm denying that...And, it is not facts based on my own views...Like I mentioned, Apollodorus Of Damascus and many philosophers are documented as ethnic Greeks, they were from what is today Syria...In this case, my view is both fact and opinion...Yes, as Levantines, we have Phoenician blood in us, and we do have Northern/Western European Crusader blood in us...It is also worth mentioning that the Phoenicians were a result due to mixing between the Greek Sea Peoples and the Canaanites...We are a mixed people, there's no denying that. We're not pure, however this doesn't prevent us in having pride in our Greek heritage. Historically, the Roum had a Greek culture, and were Greek speakers prior to the Arab invasion of the 7th century, and the Roum obviously have Greek ancestry. Culturally, in the Greek Orthodox and Catholic Churches in the Levant, the Greek language is still used in the liturgy... Also, other ethnicities like the Armenians, French, Germans, and Irish are not pure either, yet they still have pride in being Armenian, French, German, and Irish...As for the Ghassanids, they mainly intermarried with themselves, and barely mixed with people outside their group...The Ghassanid theory is constantly exaggerated by Arabists in order to fight the Antiochian Greek and Syriac identities, and have them Arabized...Also, prior to the First World War, no Roum or Syriac declared himself/herself to be an Arab...but only after the hostile infiltration of the churches by priests that espoused the Arabist/Arab Nationalist ideology... Gramaic | Talk 07:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I am very happy to see that you managed to write that: "We are a mixed people, there's no denying that. We're not pure". But nevertheless you still oppose only Ghassanid DNA possibilities.

"no Roum or Syriac". Most of the scholars do not see the existence of the Syriac ethnicity. Usually is seen Syriac = Assyrian. (Off topic: when someone writes about Roum/Rum, many people including me, see the funny connection with the Roma people.)

"no Roum or Syriac declared himself/herself to be an Arab" but the Orthodox Christian Michel Aflaq was one of the founders of the controversial "Arabist/Arab Nationalist ideology". What do you think about this?

BTW You could make an article for Levant Party and Operation Antioch.

MaronitePride (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• • • The reason the Ghassanid theory is mostly a myth is because only less than 7% of the entire Syrian population shares its DNA with the Arabs/Ghassanids...Meaning, the rest of the 93% of Syrians do not have Arab DNA, Muslims and Christians included...The Ghassanid issue for our people is just like the Arab exaggeration of the Sicilians, where Arabists try to make everybody seem like an Arab, when in actuality only a small minority of the population has Arab genetics...As for Roum/Rûm/روم, it is nothing more than a corruption of the Greek word 'Romioi' (pronounced Rumi), which was used by Byzantine Greeks of the past to self identify themselves...
    • As for the Roum or Syriacs not declaring themselves to be Arabs, I clearly stated that was before the First World War...Michel Aflaq was born a few years prior to the First World War, so by the time he was an adult, the Arabist ideology (aka Arab Nationalism) had already had a strong grip on the Levant's population...
    • According to Prof. Steve Tamari of Southern Illinois University. During the 17th century, the "Arab" identity in Syria was ONLY held by a small Sunni Muslim elite, which would mean that Syrian Rûm and other predominantly Christian Levantine groups at the time DID NOT identify as "Arabs". The following quote was taken from Prof. Tamari's paper "Arab National Consciousness in Seventeenth and Eighteenth Century Syria"...

Gramaic | Talk 19:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I wrote about your opinion about Michel Aflaq (the founders of the controversial "Arabist/Arab Nationalist ideology") and your sock-puppet immediately wrote:"So I removed two Arabists with famous ancient Antiochians". Unfortunately, we are both Christians (different denominations, possible both of us also Lebanese), but we cannot have open discussion without hidden actions. If we as Christians cannot have meaningful understanding and dialogue, how we could expect to have a meaningful dialogue between us (Christians) and them (Muslims) for better future of Lebanon and the area.

Therefore, unfortunately and I insist on the meaning of unfortunately, there is no point to have a meaningful discussion with you and your many sock-puppet accounts.MaronitePride (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• • • Sock-puppets? This is the only account I have...I don't do anything in the dark, I do everything under this account, and only this account...and we cannot have a good dialogue with ridiculous accusations of using sock-puppets... There are many other people that share my view, and they are rapidly growing...

Gramaic | Talk 18:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Gramaic, you are obligated to use reliable scholarly sources for the claims you are making. Please provide sources that specifically state that members of the Greek/Byzantine Orthodox church are in fact ethnic Greeks. George Al-Shami (talk) 05:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello George, Sources have been provided, one of them being from Pavlos Koralidis...More sources will be provided in the future... :-) Gramaic | Talk 05:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Consider yourself whatever

You can consider yourself a martian, it doesnt matter. You need reliable sources to add this on Wikipedia and since the academic consensus is that you are native syrians who adhered to the old church of the county who occupied Syria then you cant present yourself as Greeks on Wikipedia. You can do it out of it nobody care.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:21, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Mentioned at WP:SPI

At Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gramaic an editor has suggested you might be operating multiple accounts, or joining in an effort to affect Wikipedia with people you are affiliated with off-wiki. You may respond to that report if you wish. I'm also leaving you a notice of the discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBMAC, below. When I reviewed the complaint at WP:ANI it seemed to me that some organized POV-pushing might be going on, since links were being added to an apparently small association concerned with a group of people they call Antiochian Greeks. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 04:38, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Here are the pagelinks for Antiochian Greeks:

• Antiochian Greeks (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

You and your IP 172.56.17.68 together have reverted Antiochian Greeks six times on June 6 and 7. Can you explain why you should not be blocked for violating WP:3RR, and for abusing multiple accounts? EdJohnston (talk) 04:59, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello there, My intention was not to violate any rules. My changes under the IP address was an honest mistake on my part, due to the fact that I have forgotten to log in to my account at times... Gramaic | Talk 05:07, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

During May you made about 11 edits at Antiochian Greeks with a different IP. Was that also an oversight? If you agree to take a break from Antiochian Greeks and its talk page for one month, including both your account and all your IPs, you may be able to avoid a block for edit warring. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 05:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, that was an oversight...Any edits I have made under an IP address was a mistake I did not mean to do...I'll take a break from the Antiochian Greek page... :-)

Gramaic | Talk 05:38, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Antiochian Greeks are covered by discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBMAC

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding the Balkans, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

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Hi Gramaic, your fellow Antiochian Greeks need your help

Hi brother, this Edmond from Ancient Philadelphia, our wiki page (Antiochian Greek Christians) is continuously being attacked and vandalized, we are trying to keep it legitimate, could use your support since you are a recognized editor on Wiki and fellow Antiochian Greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Levantinerum (talk • contribs) 12:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

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Apollodorus of damascus is syrian

Can you stop editing and adding false sources to claim apollodorus as Greek when he's Syrian? We made a Reddit thread about you. If you vandalize again we will do the same about your history as well we know you are a Lebanese. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskLatakia/comments/14m636w/alert_guys_can_you_correct_this_wikipedia_mistake/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1 <IP removed> 11:21, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica is one of the most reliable sources available, and I'm sorry, he was Greek no matter how much some people dislike that fact. Gramaic | Talk 19:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

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