User talk:Grutness/archive53

This file is an archive - please do not add new discussion here - add it to my Talk page

Happy New Year, Grutness!

Happy New Year!

Grutness,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
–Davey2010 ^{Merry Xmas / Happy New Year} 00:35, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Seasonal events

I was going to nominate Category:Seasonal events subtree for deletion, except for Category:Seasonal festivals. Then I saw there was already a nomination on 2017-12-10 and you had undertaken to populate the categories.

I became aware of the existence of the category when you added National Famine Commemoration Day to Category:Spring (season) events in the Republic of Ireland. I disagree with this on two grounds:

1. in Ireland, spring traditionally runs from February to April, whereas National Famine Commemoration Day is in May.
2. The day happens to be in May but the event has nothing to do with spring as a season.

More generally,

1. for any of the categories I checked, inclusion criteria were not specified (e.g. the definition of "spring" for Category:Spring (season) events in Australia). Is it based on hemisphere + calendar date? That would be too crude; not everywhere in the Northern Hemisphere begins spring on 21 March, either culturally or climatically. Category:Seasonal events in India If the inclusion criteria are more sophisticated then they need even more strongly to be specified explicitly.
2. Events that happen to take place in, say, "spring" for some definition of "spring" would be overcategorised in "Spring events" unless the season is important to their identity. To what extent is Independence Day (United States) a summer event? Is Black History Month a winter event?

jnestorius^(talk) 10:27, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I was not aware of the unusual dates for spring in Ireland. In most countries, northern spring is March 1 to May 31 or March 21 to June 21, and southern spring is September 1 or 22 to November 1 or December 22. The whole tree was recently nominated for deletion and saved on the proviso that it be populated. I continued population on the basis that it was previously being populated which is, as the name suggests, events which occur within a particular season, on an annual or at least frequent basis. This seems a fairly reasonable reason for grouping them together. Yes, the US's Independence Day is in summer, which is an accident of history, but it's now associated with typical summer activities pretty strongly. I haven't added Black History month to a seasonal category, since its connection with a specific season is vague. Similarly, some countries hold events such as marathons, cycle races, air shows, flower shows, open-air music events, and parades in specific seasons for weather-related reasons, so their specification by season makes perfect sense. Other events are deliberately arranged for "off seasons" when tourism would otherwise be at a low - one of the reason film festivals are often held in late autumn or winter. School-related special "weeks" are often arranged for specific parts of the educational year, so as to avoid major holidays in Summer and Winter, and also to avoid end of year exam periods, so their season-related timing is also significant. As such, I'd say that .

If May is summer in Ireland for the article you mention, then moving the article to Ireland's summer category would make sense. Grutness...wha? 11:59, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I've added a hatnote at the top of Category:Seasonal events by country to explain the categorisation rationale. Grutness...wha? 12:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

"many non-Festival recurring events have perfectly valid reasons for being connected to certain seasons" — that may indeed be so but it needs to be established on a case-by-case basis. If the article on a certain event says the date was chosen for a particular season-related "historic, religious, economic, or weather-related" reason (to quote your hatnote) then it can validly be added to a season-related category, but it is WP:OR to assume that for all film festivals (or whatever -- and aren't film festivals festivals rather than events?) that some such reason exists. You agree that Black History month's connection to a season is vague, but as the National Famine Commemoration Day article states that it is sometimes in September I don't know what made you confident enough to assign it to Spring; it makes me fear that your zeal to populate the categories resulted in some overhasty inclusions. Separately, the hatnote should be Category:Seasonal events and probably on all subcats. In summary, more care is needed to ensure that the category is populated only with events that are verifiably season-related, rather than clogged up with events that by happenstance are held in a particular season. jnestorius^(talk) 17:22, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

I'll admit that that p[articular one was a mistake - the lede clearly stated that it was usually in May, and I went off that with the categorisation. The lede should have said that it had moved to autumn in recent years, which would clearly make it a "movable feast". As to Film festivals, all film festivl categories are subcategories of festivals categories - and all festivals categories are subcategories of events categories - understandably, since film (and all other) festivals are events. Grutness...wha? 01:32, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

The point is that even if it were always in July that does not automatically make it a summer event. jnestorius^(talk) 11:25, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

You're right - it's only a summer event (i.e., an event which occurs in summer) in the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere it would be a winter event. Which is why simply categorising it as a "July event/observance/festival" as it is at the moment is not particularly helpful. Categorising it by the season in which it it occurs is far more useful. Grutness...wha? 14:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

The point is that even if it were always in July in Ireland that does not automatically make it a summer event. jnestorius^(talk) 18:25, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

The point is that an event which only ever happens in summer is, by definition, a summer event. Look at it this way. Is Christmas a winter event? From the northern hemisphere point of view, the answer would be unequivocably yes - it is intrinsic to the winter season. But in the southern hemisphere, it is intrinsically a summer event. There is nothing which says "winter" about Christmas other than the traditions which have grown up around it. It is now a major highlight of the southern summer. It's all cause and effect. Events which happen specifically at one time of the year are now looked forward to as part of a specific season's activities. You might as well say US Independence Day shouldn't be categorised among Category:July observances, because it is only sheer chance that it occurs in that month. Grutness...wha? 00:59, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

"The point is that an event which only ever happens in summer is, by definition, a summer event" -- that is exactly where I disagree. If you really believe that, why did you not make Black History Month a winter event? 11:41, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Because it's held at on different dates in different countries. Same reason I haven't added Mothers' Day, Labour Day, or Fathers' Day. But if you think i should, then fine. Also, with the United States, simply got the categories to a point of viability and then left them with {{popcat}} hatnotes - a standard way of getting other editors involved. Grutness...wha? 11:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

About Pink Frost

It so annoys me that my passport is written in English and French while yours is in English and Māori. O Kuini Erihāpeti - who technically is my employer - and her family haven't spoken French as a native language for quite a long while now, etc. etc. etc
Would you be interested in whipping "Pink Frost" up to a little Wikipedia:Did you know? It's rather iconic of the Dunedin Sound.
Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Heh - thanks... I don't know how much more I could write about it though. Grutness...wha? 12:03, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Holidays

Hold on please! It makes no sense to cross reference categories the way you are doing. Simply appending Northern Hemisphere categories to Southern Hemisphere makes no sense. The problem arose because until I created Category:Summer holidays (Southern Hemisphere) less than a month ago, there was no listing of southern hemisphere summer holidays. Any that did take place had been included in the N. Hemisphere category, which was ridiculous. What should happen now is that any that appear there should be transferred to Category:Summer holidays (Southern Hemisphere). Please don't just cross-reference the two categories. I'm prepared to do this work to sort out the ones that need shifting. Akld guy (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Huh? I'm not appending northern hemisphere categories to southern hemisphere ones. I'm simply splitting observances into southern and northern where appropriate - I've been working on this task for a couple of months now and just got round to the southern summer - as I said, I was surprised it didn't exist before. I'm currently working predominantly on the southern spring holidays. Grutness...wha? 02:16, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

In fact you have done that. You've appended "Summer holidays (Southern Hemisphere)" to "December observances", "January observances", and "February observances", thereby bringing all the Northern Hemisphere winter holidays into our Southern Hemisphere summer holidays. It's not appropriate, even as a temporary measure. Akld guy (talk) 02:29, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

As I said, this is a temporary measure. But it's not appending them to Northern Hemisphere categories, it's appending them to worldwide categories. All the northern hemisphere events should be in the equivalent seasonal northern hemisphere categories. The northern hemisphere categories contain southern hemisphere items as well, which is just as bad - and have done so for a long time with no complaints. This sort of sorting, with temporary kludges - has been going on for as long as I've been on Wikipedia (nearly two decades now), and will no doubt continue for a long time as well - it's not ideal, but it's a viable nd valid method of working. Grutness...wha? 02:33, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, it's good to see that some sorting out is taking place, or at least the process has been kick started. I agree that for far too long the southern holidays were lumped in with northern ones. Akld guy (talk) 02:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I've been working on seasonal events by country/hemisphere mainly, which is probably why we hadn't crossed paths before. Almost all of that is done now, which is why I moved from there onto the holidays. Grutness...wha? 05:18, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

January 2018

Your recent editing history at Eastern Hemisphere shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. BilCat (talk) 12:27, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

@BilCat: don't teach your grandma to suck eggs. I am NOT in an edit war, I have reverted twice - well within WP:3RR. Also, don't treat me like a newbie - as I've been an admin here for over ten years, I have a fair idea about the rules. I've opened discussion about my proposed change on the talk page, which was the sensible move rather than an unwarranted threat of blocking. Now, pull your horns in, and if you've got anything constructive to say about my proposal, do it on Talk:Eastern Hemisphere. Grutness...wha? 12:37, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I must admit that I was very surprised to find out you were an admin. You obviously shouldn't be one. Good bye. - BilCat (talk)

Charmed, I'm sure. At least I have a fair idea why you're not an admin. Grutness...wha? 12:56, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Category:Autumn holidays (Southern Hemisphere) has been nominated for discussion

Category:Autumn holidays (Southern Hemisphere), which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:55, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Rostrogordo

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Rostrogordo requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the help or reference desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. MONUMENTA (talk) 20:15, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Speedy declined — MONUMENTA I left you a note at your talk page. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 20:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly. Defined places with listed features are not speediable. It's a long time since I've received a "welcome to Wikipedia" message, BTW! Grutness...wha? 00:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Makes ya feel young and alive! ~ Amory (u • t • c) 01:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

:) Grutness...wha? 01:56, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Brazilstubmap.png

The file File:Brazilstubmap.png has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Orphaned map.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 01:27, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

It served its purpose and has been superceded. Delete at will! Grutness...wha? 01:32, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Category:Songs from Carousel (musical)

Sorry I didn't respond to you on the CfD for the above, I was on a somewhat unintended break.

It wasn't my intention for this to be a test case, though there may be some virtue there. I was recently involved in a discussion about what actually constitutes a WP:SMALLCAT; that conversation fizzled a bit over a month ago, though I've just attempted to revive it to "recommend" that a small category generally has fewer than five members. My nominating this category was informed by the prior CfD that led to that discussion. In this case, I appreciate your creation of a new category to address the concern, versus a larger-scale upmerging.

I do think it would be worthwhile to review and potentially consolidate other small cats, but I'm not planning to actively hunt them down. Maybe we could have a bot tag them for review, assuming there isn't one already in play? DonIago (talk) 17:15, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Might be worth doing, though it's not really an urgent problem. There are a few obvious ones in Category:Songs from musicals, but I've no doubt they'll all turn up at CfD sooner or later. I added a couple more songs by writers from musicals categories which I think has helped a bit as far as categorising the loose songs is concerned, but there are a few musicals where that won't really help (one- or two-song categories from a writer's only well-known musical and the like). But as I say, they'll probably trickle into CfD gradually anyway. Grutness...wha? 00:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks! DonIago (talk) 20:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Any comment on NZ Wikipedian at Large grant?

Hi there. I have a Project Grant open for comment at the moment, to fund me for a year as a NZ Wikipedian at Large. I'd appreciate your opinion, as an experienced NZ Wikimedian, if you have a moment to take a look at it. If you think the proposal has legs, I'd be very grateful for your endorsement; if you can see problems, feel free to add suggestions to its Discussion page. There's no pressure, it would just be good to have more input from people who know the NZ Wikipedia scene. Cheers, Mike/Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 07:01, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Rowing stubs

Hi James, I've done a bit more work in the rowing space and there are now some stub tags that categorise to European rowing biography stubs but should rather point to their own country rowing bio stub category. This includes three countries: Denmark (117 rowers), USSR (88 rowers), and Czech Republic (74 rowers). Sweden, Ukraine and Russia are all in their 40s and are thus getting close; do I remember it right that 65 is the number that you need before you change things? What actually needs doing when the threshold is reached? Do I need to ask you (or another member of the stub sort group), or can I do the resulting changes myself? Schwede66 19:30, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

60 is the usual number. Given that these are pretty standard splits you could probably get away with doing it yourself, but the official process is to propose it at WP:WSS/P. Grutness...wha? 00:46, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

PS - good work! Grutness...wha? 00:48, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, I'll chance it and trust that I won't get into trouble. I've just tried to action Denmark. If I see this right, there are two things to do:

• At the existing template, change the target category to Danish rowing biography stubs, and
• Create a new category.

Correct? Is that all? Schwede66 08:54, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Yup. Looks good to me :) Make sure you're guided by the names of the existing categories when making the new ones. Grutness...wha? 14:00, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Ruziza for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ruziza is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ruziza until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Mangoe (talk) 17:09, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for making me laugh

[1]

Black humour of a fine grade. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

:) Grutness...wha? 01:39, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you for editing Mövenpick Ice Cream! I'm still learning so I am grateful to see how pages can be improved. Thank you!

SunnyBoi (talk) 04:03, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

No problem - have fun editing! Grutness...wha? 04:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

List of sportspeople–artists

Awesome work, and all the effort put into every detail of it! Svedlundp (talk) 16:27, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Grutness...wha? 23:41, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Category:People associated with bungee jumping has been nominated for discussion

Category:People associated with bungee jumping, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. SFB 19:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Air travel

Waiting on a copy of Richard Waugh's book from the library because I suspect it continued until 1976. Eddaido (talk) 05:09, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

William Jones (Welsh footballer, born 1876)

Please do not remove any Welsh players from Category:Welsh footballers! GiantSnowman 09:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• @GiantSnowman: Huh? I didn't realise I did! I've simply been replacing "People from town" with either "Sportspeople from town" or "Footballer from town". If I did, it was accidental. Grutness...wha? 09:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

No worries, thanks for explaining! GiantSnowman 09:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)