User talk:Robert McClenon/Archive 50

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Archive 49

Archive 50

Please reply at the MfD

You're not making sense there. Nothing unusual is happening, except for the MfD for a draft article that is not finished or perfect. No rules have been broken. I am within the rules for article creation. I'm doing what many experienced editors do when they create articles in their userspace. Please explain yourself there. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

User:Valjean - I had already seen your questions at the MFD, but had other priorities besides answering your questions. Bludgeoning an AFD, MFD, or DRV is usually not the most effective approach. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Ngāti Tukorehe

Hi. You added a comment to Draft:Ngāti Tukorehe a few months ago that said it was a "draft on a subtopic of an existing article, Ngāti Tukorehe". But Ngāti Tukorehe is just a redirect, not an article. Did you mean to say something different? Thanks. Nurg (talk) 08:38, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

User:Nurg - Yes. I meant to discuss at Talk:Ngāti Raukawa, since there seem to be differences of opinion as to whether Ngāti Tukorehe is a subtribe of Ngāti Raukawa or a separate tribe. Yes, I made a mistake. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I see you have fixed your comment. Thanks very much. Nurg (talk) 03:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Camarines

Hi Robert,

You marked Draft:Camarines as "under review", and haven't accepted nor declined. Are you still reviewing this? A friendly reminder. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

User:SafariScribe - I forgot about it. I have dropped it from review so that you can look at it. I will take another look at it, but it's your turn now if you wish. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections/Evidence. Please add your evidence by August 20, 2024, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Party Guide/Introduction. For the Arbitration Committee, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 00:50, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

editing article at DRN

Hey, Robert, I edited that Nabongo article yesterday after the DRN request was posted. Should I revert or leave it? Valereee (talk) 11:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Valereee - You didn't agree not to edit the article. Leave it as you last edited it. We haven't started moderated discussion yet. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

dispute resolve wikipedia

Hello, I have informed the other party on their talk page and we are both ready for dispute resolution Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard on the Neith topic. Potymkin (talk) 17:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

August music

story · music · places

Thank you for explaining to a new editor! - I have three "musicians" on the Main page, one the topic of my story today, like 22 July but with interview and today's music at the Proms -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

On 13 August, Bach's cantata was 300 years old, and the image one. The cantata is an extrordinary piece, using the chorale's text and famous melody more than others in the cycle. It's nice to have not only a recent death, but also this "birthday" on the Main page. And a rainbow in my places. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

On Draft:The Doctor of Alcantara

Hello !!! Robert McClenon

You wrote that Draft:The Doctor of Alcantara does not meet the notability guidelines. However, you did not provide any specific guideline. I looked at Wikipedia:Notability (music). But I could not find any rule about opera. So please show me the notability guideline.

Thank you ブラン＝アルジャン (talk) 06:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Existential risk studies

Hello, Robert, how are you? I have just seem your commentary in the closure of my DRN notification. I really think that there is a content dispute in the article, the question about returning the article to the draft is secondary in relation to the dispute. The editors that contest the current version havent specified, in my understanding, any specific section or problem in the article, stating only general NPOV issues. I will try to refill the notification, as I am really really exhausted by this discussion, which seems unfair and unrelated to the principles of the Wikipedia. This is my last call, because if no one can help me with this kind of hindering pressure against the encyclopedia development, then i can no longer dedicate so much of my time to english wikipedia, JoaquimCebuano (talk) 16:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

User:JoaquimCebuano - I see that you found the neutral point of view noticeboard, which is a better forum for the general concerns that you want addressed. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Galician Wikipedia

Please histmerge Draft:Galician Wikipedia into Galician Wikipedia. It seems obvious that the current version is based on e.g. this, and even if it was written independently, the older history shouldn't have been erased like this. Fram (talk) 07:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Fram - I assume that you mean to tag it for histmerge. I don't have the toolbox to do a histmerge. The older history hasn't been erased. That is why I did the round-robin swap and moved the older history into the draft position, rather than tagging the older redirect for G6. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, User:Fram. I see that PK2 copied the former version from the redirect in creating the draft that I accepted. I have tagged it. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Hurricane Ernesto

Just a reminder that it has been over twelve hours since your edit beginning to review Draft:Hurricane Ernesto (2024). If there is anything I could do to expedite the process, please let me know. ✶Quxyz✶ 15:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Tropical Storm Sonca (2022)

G6'ed. Please proceed with draft acceptance. -- Whpq (talk) 03:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Page moves

Hello, Robert,

Please, if you want to move an article or draft to a page that has a redirect, use Twinkle, go to the page with a redirect and tag it CSD>G6 Move and in the field, put the name of the draft or article you want moved and an admin can handle the deletion and page move. Do not move a main space redirect to your own User space and then tag the page for deletion. Then we lose the page history of the original redirect which ends up on a deleted page in your User space which is kind of ridiculous. Let's try to keep a page's history together, whether it is the current page history or a deleted page history. There is no need to move pages to your User space when there is a simple way to keep all of the history together using Twinkle. Please do this in the future. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Liz - I hear you, and won't do it in the meantime until I get this resolved, but I only partly understand. First, and this is a minor point, AFC reviewers always use G6-AFC-Move for a blocking redirect rather than G6-Move, because we are asking the deleting admin not to handle the page move, unless they use the AFC script. The AFC accept script performs a considerable amount of useful cleanup work. If an admin does a regular page move of the draft into article space, a lot of manual cleanup work is required afterward. But, second, G6, either Move or AFC-Move, says it should be used if there is only a minor page history. So are you saying that the minor page history should be preserved also, or sort of preserved also? Third, what I am looking for is a way that I can immediately accept a draft when there is a blocking redirect, without needing to wait for the admin to delete the redirect. Are you aware of a way that I can do that (free up the article title immediately, without waiting for the G6 queue)? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Note

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calicut_FC#

Please can it be protected, if not constant ip vandal blocked, you spoke him recently Cenderabird (talk) 20:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Template:3O-notice

Hi, Robert. I created template {{3O-notice}} five months ago, then forgot about it, until I got a bot message just now that it was up for deletion as a stale draft. So I patched it up a little, and released it. If you are willing, could you have a look at it, critique the message text and parameter usage, and let me know what you think? Also, it would be great if you could try it out live a couple of times and lmk how it goes, and if there's anything you would change about it. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome, User:Mathglot. I have tried it right below this message, and that looks right. I have two comments at this time. First, I think that a few spaces and line feeds in the template code would make it a little easier to read for any third party. Second, I would have made this change myself, except that you are using safesubst, which I do not have experience with. Can you tweak the template so that Anomiebot substitutes the template? I think that is all for now. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

First, apologies for the length of this. Both of these issues (structured code, subst'ing) are things I am concerned with too, as template code can look abstruse, and make it very hard to modify. There is a solution, or workaround, but before I get into the weeds about that, my first priority is to template *users* (proper messaging, useful params, good doc, etc.) and only secondarily to *template writers* (ease of maintainability), although the latter is definitely a goal as well, and something I always do if/when it is possible, through various methods, including indenting/newlines, but also use of subtemplates. Most of your questions or issues appear to be in the second category. I will address them, but it requires some detailed, and I'm sorry—lengthy, explanation.

(Warning: weeds ahead!) Here's an example of a subtemplate: can you make sense out of this? I see plenty of templates whose code looks like this, and it's very frustrating trying to read or understand it:

Sample of fairly typical, unstructured and abstruse template code

{{#if: {{hasTemplate|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:MiszaBot/config}} | {{#switch: {{{1|}}} |bot = Lowercase sigmabot III |age = {{#if: {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:MiszaBot/config|1|algo}} | {{#invoke:String|match| {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:MiszaBot/config|1|algo}} |^%s*old%s*%((%d+)d%)%s*$|nomatch=}} }} |units = {{#if: {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:MiszaBot/config|1|algo}} | {{#switch: {{#invoke:String|match| {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:MiszaBot/config|1|algo}} |^%s*old%s*%(%d+(%a)%)%s*$|nomatch=}} | d = days | h = hours | #DEFAULT = seconds }} }} |minkeepthreads |minthreadsleft |min = {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:MiszaBot/config|1|minthreadsleft}} |#DEFAULT = }} | {{#if: {{hasTemplate|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis}} | {{#switch: {{{1|}}} |bot = ClueBot III |age = {{#if: {{{round|{{{r|}}}}}} | {{#ifexpr: {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis|1|age}} > 24 | {{#expr: ((2 * {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis|1|age}}/24) round 0) / 2}} | {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis|1|age}} }} | {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis|1|age}} }} |units = {{#if: {{{round|{{{r|}}}}}} | {{#ifexpr: {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis|1|age}} > 24 | days | hours }} | hours }} |minkeepthreads |minthreadsleft | min = {{tmpv|{{{2|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis|1|minkeepthreads}} |#DEFAULT = }} end #switch ClueBot III }} }}<noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude>

Got it all figured out now? I'm sure not, and I hate code like that. But it doesn't have to be that way. If you go to Template:Talk header/archivebotparse and have a look at the code there, you will see how I prefer to write template code. And now for the big reveal: the two are identical; the rubbish code in the collapse box is the exact same template, only without the newlines and spacing. So, believe me when I say I know what you are talking about, as far as writing accessible code, and I think we are totally on the same page about that. (It's on my to-do list to write a template-writing essay about that, but sadly. my to-do list is too long to envision it happening any time soon.)

That said, there are some places you can add newlines and blanks (before and after the pipe character in #if: and #switch: statements, for example) but not all templates are subject to that, so you have to add comment delimiters to protect the white space, and often that works, but there are still a fraction of templates for where it doesn't (or, more precisely, it would, but the comments would get emitted in the output, so the comment delimiters have to be <noinclude>d, and that may make the code line too long to be able to align the if's and else's, and just make things worse instead of better. And that is compounded in templates that must be subst'ed, making what was a short line very long, and alignment impossible.

I still have a solution for that, though, and that segues us into the subst'ing issue now (and more weeds). Subst protection for templates that may, or must be subst'ed is annoying, but necessary. The thing you mentioned about AnomieBot, is only about subst'ing a template placed by a user who used {{Foo}} when {{subst:Foo}} was required. But that requires Template:Foo to have internal subst-protection (safesubst); there is no such thing as a bot that fixes placement of a template that lacks subst protection in the code itself. So, unfortunately, the tweak you refer to is impossible—I cannot remove subst protection from the template. It would be great if we could, then we wouldn't have to have subst-protection in Template:Uw-vandalism1, and all the many other user warning templates that have it, but unfortunately there is no way to do what you wish by bot. (If it's possible at all, imho it would have to be via a mediawiki software change that alters how the template language works, and I wouldn't hold my breath about that.)

All of which by way of long explanation that, unfortunately, your tweak of removing subst protection from the template is not possible. But, I do have a workaround that may work for you, in this, and every template that uses subst protection. I find subst protection just as annoying as you do, and sometimes it makes it impossible to see the logic flow of the code. So the first thing I do, on any template I am updating (after moving it to the sandbox) is to strip out all the subst protection. Voilà, readable code! (Or at least, more readable than before.) Next, I add newlines, whitespace, and comments. I make my code changes, and the last thing I do is to reverse the process, stripping the white space and reinserting the subst protection. The good news is that stripping it out and reinserting it are completely mechanical, and you don't have to understand anything about subst protection. If you are familiar with PCRE, you can just use these two regexes.

Alternative method without PCRE

If you're not familiar with PCRE, to unsubstify, basically look for the string {{{|safesubst:}}} and remove every occurrence of it. Lately, an alternative method has become popular, which is <includeonly>safesubst:</includeonly>, so remove all of those. To re-substify, find all occurrences of two left curly brackets not preceded by another curly bracket (so exactly two, no more, no less) and replace them with two left curly brackets plus the subst phrase you removed before.

Still with me? This is probably way more than you bargained for, and maybe the core of this explanation could be bootstrapped into that essay I mean to write at some point. But the bottom line is that there isn't a way to easily modify the template wikicode appearance the way you might wish, but the template update method of:

1. simplifying the code via subst protection removal and adding white space to highlight the logic,
2. make code changes and test, and
3. undo white space (if necessary), and re-add subst protection (required)

will work here (and will work everywhere and simplify the changes you want to make to any template). If you look at the history and changes to Template:3O-notice/sandbox (which I just created for you), you will see step #1 in action. If you want to play around changing the code in the sandbox, be my guest. If your changes work in step 2 (note one missing item: I have not yet written the test cases page) then you can proceed to step 3, and if it still looks good in all the test cases, you can move the sandbox back to live. Nobody is using this template yet, so you are not going to break anything. That said, if you'd rather I make specific functional changes to how the template works, I'm happy to do it; just let me know. Mathglot (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Mathglot - You said that this is long, and it is long, and I will read it within 36 hours. Thank you, sort of. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Only if you wish to. In my OP, I was proposing a functional critique, i.e., how well would it suit a potential user of it, such as the message text, layout, linkage, parameter names and usage, even the image, and the doc page and that's easy to discuss (and no weeds). When the topic becomes what the wikicode looks like and why, and how to improve the code for maintainability by other template writers, that is very much a different question essentially unrelated to the functionality question that is more about template language, which opens up a huge can of worms and takes a lot longer to discuss. If it interests you, I'm game, and it sounds like it does because you asked about it, hence the long explanation. Otoh feel free to ignore it if it doesn't. Mathglot (talk) 09:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Notice of content dispute listed at WP:3O for assistance

This message is to let you know of a request for a third opinion (3O) regarding a content dispute you have been involved in. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to do so, to help this issue come to a resolution. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!