User talk:VenFlyer98/Archive 1

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Virgin Atlantic MCO to BFS

Hi. You have been deleting Belfast as a destination which Virgin Atlantic serves from the Orlando International Airport page. However, if you check Virgin's website you will see that Virgin is serving MCO/BFS on Sundays over the European summer 2022 period. For example Sun Jul 10, VS162 will depart MCO at 17:40 arriving non stop at Belfast next day at 6:25am on Airbus 330. Please can you not continue to delete? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.96.57 (talk) 00:15, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi,

Sorry for the deletion. I checked Virgin's website and it seems like the route only runs very specific days and not for long. I checked a bunch of dates but missed the one it was actually operating, so that's my bad. I only deleted it off of MCO because another user deleted it off of BFS's page. I am not "continuing to delete," I only removed it off of one page. (VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC))

May 2021

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Icelandair, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Nguyen QuocTrung (talk) 07:28, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Usually single deliveries (unless it’s a major delivery like a new aircraft type) do not get any articles or sources written about them, and the general source for the Icelandair fleet isn’t updated when new planes are delivered. My bad for not including a source, but there were pretty much none that existed. Have a good one! VenFlyer98 (talk) 05:41, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Super Monkey Ball Banana Mania.jpg

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United Newark-Prague; Newark-Stockholm

Hi. Someone keeps re-adding that United is resuming flights to Prague and Stockholm from Newark on May 25, 2023 but did not provide a source. They keep insisting that the flight is bookable on the airline’s website. Can you take a look and confirm? Thanks! Rzxz0839 (talk) 08:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@Rzxz0839: Hey, just took a look and yup UA shows both routes as nonstop resuming 5/25/23. EWR-ARN with a 757-200 and EWR-PRG with a 767-300. Thing is, you know the rules of Wikipedia, anything getting added needs a source, and the user saying “I talked to UA on Twitter” or using their booking engine isn’t independent/good enough. Not sure how to handle this. I would personally remove it until a source comes out, but that’s just me. (VenFlyer98 (talk) 17:58, 21 July 2022 (UTC))

Bradley International Airport

Please do not change edits showing Cancun, San Francisco and Las Vegas in the JetBlue section. All 3 flights have been cut from future scheduling and are done flying. Source: The Points Guy. West Palm Beach is also seasonal only. Saturnpilot (talk) 18:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@Saturnpilot: Thanks for the message. However, the way Wikipedia works is you need a source for everything and it would be nice to explain edits. If you just remove something without explaining it, it’s going to be reverted. A simple “flights are removed from schedule” or something like “no longer bookable” is all you have to do. Additionally, no one seems to bother with changing it on the other airport’s pages (removing BDL from Cancun’s page, for example). You cannot say “don’t remove it” when you don’t initially provide a reason. VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Airport Flag Icons

Clutter? The flag icons are found on numerous other airport articles in similar boxes. They are colorful and are hardly clutter. I won't fight with you about it but I think you are dead wrong. Bgreatarrington (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello,

While I appreciate the response, I didn’t revert a single one of your edits. Think you clicked the wrong name. Thank you! VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

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Airline destination maps

Hi VenFlyer98. I am new to editing airline destination maps; can you please give me a link as to what was previously discussed regarding the etiquette on this? As you may have noticed recently, I added two new destinations on the Rhode Island T.F. Green International Airport destinations map (which already had confirmed verifiable citations and sources); I see that map has now been removed altogether citing redundancy. I've also noticed that no Wikipedia articles covering major United States airports had any destination maps – a trend I was trying to break for the sake of reader convenience when I started creating a new destinations map for New York City's John F. Kennedy International Airport. Are all destination maps eventually going to be removed due to redundancy?

Although there is a detailed list of airlines and nonstop destinations on every page, I firmly believe that the average reader should also have a choice of seeing a geographic map to find out if their desired city can be reached from a particular airport. It's also faster and easier to find this out on a map rather than reading a long list to spot their desired city (that's just my opinion), so I was trying to improve the page from a reader's standpoint. If the maps take up too much space in the article, it can always been hidden by clicking on the "hide" button at the top right. The destinations for Rhode Island T.F. Green Airport in particular are constantly fluctuating; they now have 32 nonstop destinations compared to just 17 nonstop destinations in 2017 (please see the link below). https://www.flyri.com/blog/rhode-island-t-f-green-international-airport-routes-update/ Geometric11 (talk) 03:56, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi,

I’ve dug around the talk archives over at WP:AIRPORT and over the years, there hasn’t seem to be a firm conclusion on how to handle maps, thus several users started to remove them. There also seemed to be some agreement between users that large airports (JFK for example) shouldn’t have destination maps as the maps would get pretty cluttered (look at all the regional destinations for an airport like JFK or LGA that are close together). However, as mentioned there doesn’t seem to have been a firm conclusion or any mention of it in the Wiki Project’s page content section, so I wouldn’t be opposed to a new talk conversation over there to bring the topic back up. Honestly, I’m indifferent to maps but as I said, seems no one has had a definitive answer yet. I’ve only been removing them since a few others have, but like I said I may just open a talk conversation over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports just to see if we can finally reach a conclusion.

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 19:59, 25 December 2022 (UTC))

Hi! I saw you removed a map from my edit as well. Thanks for the clarification. I like the maps, but agree they can be a bit cluttered. Is there still a discussion over at the WikiProject?

I'm also curious to see what conclusion there is. It would be cool to have maps that are interactive. Are they switching to destinations maps like the one for CMH?

A2,304 (talk) 14:08, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Hey @A2,304:,

Not sure. Don't think a discussion has ever happened again (I kind of forgot about making one, this original topic is from over a year ago), but would still love one since there still isn't really any guidelines. Most editors remove them since in general, most editors seem to be against them, but most of the discussions are reaching a few years old, so I'm still supportive of a new one.

Thanks! VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

List of American Eagle Airlines destinations

Hi. Please explain why these edits were reverted on talk page prior to changing back. These edits were made to tighten article, fix incorrect name, and spell out abbreviations in main space that is consistent with manual of style. Thanks. Semper fi! FieldMarine (talk) 04:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi User:FieldMarine,

That’s my bad, it’s an airline’s destination page so abbreviations should be spelled out. Got confused since as I’m sure you saw, your edits on several airport pages got reverted for spelling out abbreviations (airport pages are fine with just the 2 letters for a country or state) and the way the American Eagle destinations table is laid out made me think it should be the same way when it shouldn’t. In fact, I’m not sure why it’s even laid out that way, it should be in table in style similar to List of United Express destinations or List of Delta Connection destinations. Proper table layouts are also given at WP:ALD so no idea why American Eagle’s page has its table laid out like that. But ignore my revert, shouldn’t have done it. VenFlyer98 (talk) 10:52, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks VenFlyer98, I appreciate you getting back to me and your comments. I'll check out my prior edits. IMHO, it is easier for international readers to have locations spelled out. I understand if the table has set columns and the abbreviation helps maintain space formatting, but this table does not have that. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 12:22, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

No problem, I get where you’re coming from and I’m not disagreeing. Have a good one! VenFlyer98 (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Newark Airport GAN

Hey I noticed you edit Newark Airport a lot, and I have just nominated it for GA for the second time so if you think I can expand or improve anything, or would like to do it with me let me know. Jibreel23 (talk) 14:54, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Alright, will do if I notice anything. I notice you’re always editing it and I think you do a great job with it so I’d say it’s fine for now! VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:33, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Alright thanks, appreciate it bro. Jibreel23 (talk) 21:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

American's SEA-PVG flight

Hi VenFlyer98

I see that you mistakenly edited American's destination page. It appears you missed the web article's part where it says this, "And unfortunately, the launch of flight services between Seattle-Tacoma International Airport and Shanghai Pudong International Airport will also be pushed to October 29th"

Here is the URL of the article: https://simpleflying.com/american-airlines-nonstop-shanghai-flights

Thanks! Joelaviacion1 (talk) 08:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

I did miss it. However, a few things to note: I can't find any other article that mentions the SEA-PVG flight, nor is the flight even bookable on AA's website (all flighsts show up as going SEA-DFW-PVG), as well as SEA never being added to the PVG page for AA. With that in mind, I'm not sure how accurate the article is, especially since it says all other flights to China are currently paused.

Thanks! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 02:00, 27 February 2023 (UTC))

Northern Pacific Airways

Ven,

I notice you keep deleting the ICAO references for NPA. NPA is the same company as Ravn Alaska. It says so right in the body of both pages. Every airline can only have one two and three IATA code (7H and RVF). This means it has the same call sign (RavnFlight). Thank you. Flyalaska21 (talk) 20:46, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I understand they're owned by the same company, but that does not mean the codes are the same or the callsigns are the same. If they treat Northern Pacific has a separate subsidiary, it may have different codes. Any websites that list airline codes for NP currently do not list what the airline's codes are, being owned by the same company does not matter. Everything added to Wikipedia needs a source, hence why I've been removing the codes, if that's understandable.

Thanks! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:59, 1 March 2023 (UTC))

Ven,

It is more than they are owned by the same company, they are the same company with one AOC, one IATA code, one PSS, one ICAO code... What proof do you want to stop makeing these edits? You can search now and see 757 flights from ONT to LAS on Fridays and returning on Sundays that show the N logo and the Ravn Alaska name. Flyalaska21 (talk) 20:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to add that those LAS flights start after June 1. Flyalaska21 (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Companies can switch codes around if they view it as a separate airline. Same applies to callsign, see an airline such as ITA Airways, same IATA code as Alitalia, but different callsign. You can't assume the codes are the same, and as I said, any website that lists airline codes currently do not have any codes listed for Northern Pacific. I can spin it right around and say what proof do you have aside from saying "they are owned by the same company"? I'm not changing the edits because I want to, but because of Wikipedia:Verifiability, rules are you need to source information that is added. When the airline gets closer to launching operations, websites should list their codes. If you can't verify the edits, they get removed, that's the rules on Wikipedia. Not trying to edit war or anything. Additionally, I can't find any recent flights the airline has done, as you stated. Any flights I do find simply use the plane's registration as the callsign when I search by recent flights their 757s have flown.

Thank you! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2023 (UTC))

You only find the N number on recently flown flights because ops specs have not been issued yet. Again, I politely ask, what proof will you accept to stop inappropriately editing our company's page. I don't want an edit war either. I know for a fact as to what I have entered to be true, and I am not "assuming" anything. Thank you. Flyalaska21 (talk) 08:55, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

If they haven't been issued yet, then don't include it without a source. We can add it later when a callsign is officially issued. Again, going to point to Wikipedia:Verifiability, it is not inappropriate editing. If the callsign is the same great, when ops start I'm sure they'll be sources that list it and there you go, but you need to follow Wikipedia:Verifiability, if you work for the company that necessarily isn't good enough (see WP:SPS). This is just how Wikipedia works. Sorry to make you think it's "inappropriate editing," but if you don't have a VERIFIABLE source, it gets reverted. Again, Wikipedia:Verifiability has everything on that.

Also as for flights not starting yet, going to point over to WP:CRYSTAL, again need a verifiable source for everything. Finally, as it sounds like you do work for NP, I'll link to Wikipedia:BFAQ (specifically WP:BFAQ#EDIT).

Thank you (VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC))

I could easily find a dozen airlines without references for callsigns. Please take some time, and delete all of those airlines for having unreferenced call signs. You are not serving anyone by continuing to edit our page without any knowledge. You are also applying a standard to us that you are not applying to every other airline in the world. Please, Please stop. Thank you. Flyalaska21 (talk) 23:30, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Because those airlines have sources you can go to. If I want, I can go to most airlines on Wikipedia and find a source for their callsign. There are other, reputable websites that list what those callsigns are. There is no site I can find that list's Northern Pacific's callsign. Even if sources aren't included directly on the page for another airline, there are websites that list them to back it up. Northern Pacific does not have this. When flights get closer to launching, there will be sites. This is on top of some airlines including sources, such as Lynx Air or Norse Atlantic UK, and sources are typically used on the page with newer airlines. I'm not trying to do anything in particular, but follow how Wikipedia works. You need to follow Wikipedia:Verifiability and again, since you seem to work for Northern Pacific, there are rules at WP:BFAQ#RULES.

At this point if it's added back, I'll probably just throw on a citation needed tag so this does not continue any longer. Not trying to start anything, just trying to enforce the fact everything added to Wikipedia needs to be backed with a verifiable source, even if the source itself is not on the page.

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 04:51, 6 March 2023 (UTC))

Regarding Andreweys

I'll give a little more background here, Jellywings19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (the master account of Andreweys) is not just blocked, they are banned, which means that anyone can revert their edits, solely for that reason (WP:BANREVERT). Jellywings19 is an LTA and their changes include some good content, and then some bad content mixed in with it. Sorting the good from the bad individually would take a good deal more effort than they deserve, and other LTAs use this tactic purely to waste everyone's time by trying to force them to comb through every last edit, hence the mass reversion. Of course, any user in good standing (such as yourself) is welcome to reinstate anything good from those edits. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 11:26, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah, was unaware it was a mass reversion. Just reverted your edit since the edit happened to be one of the actually “good” edit. I should’ve assumed it was a mass revert.

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC))

Your arbitral removal form Milan Malpensa airport

Hi

why did you arbitrarly removed referenced routes from Milan Malpensa Airport? the routes were already operated in summer 22, but were improperly removed, reson why were recently re-added. Given that, a resumal date it is NOT needed. Anyway, if there is no way to avoid them, they are already published on Milan malpensa official website, if needed I will re-add. Please do not arbitrarly remove.
Riktetta (talk) 15:11, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

First I did not know these were already flown from Milan. On top of this, the routes are not on the page for Cagliari Elmas Airport. Additionally, what the airport's page says is irrelevant as sources must be independent (says when you edit at the top of the page) which means the source cannot be from the airline or airport itself. Finally, as I mentioned in my edit summary, the source does not list the EXACT date the routes start/resume which is necessary, it only lists routes launching from MXP in the summer.

Thanks, (VenFlyer98 (talk) 20:26, 26 March 2023 (UTC))

Hi

1)"the routes are not on the page for Cagliari Elmas Airport. " that does not authomatically mean that the routes do not exists.

2)"what the airport's page says is irrelevant as sources must be independent (says when you edit at the top of the page) which means the source cannot be from the airline or airport itself" these info regards charters, that are not advertised for obvious reasons. If this principle have to be kept, thus it is not worthy to list charters.

3)"the source does not list the EXACT date the routes start/resume which is necessary, it only lists routes launching from MXP in the summer." again, it is NOT a launching, routes were already operated but improperly removed (for both). It is not needed to have a new date for seasonal/charters services.

anyway, instead of arbitrarly remove (because, again, this is what you did) you can place the "citation needed" tag. Routes are established, took place and will take place again. Removing them it is a vandalism.

regards Riktetta (talk) 06:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I would've placed a cn tag if I was to do it again. It is not vandalism because the source you are providing is not independent. Charters are already a bit confusing to list, WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT states to only list regular charters, as I'm assuming that's what these routes are, they need to follow the rules of how other routes are referenced. there are plenty of charter announcements that have had independent sources on other airport pages.

It also doesn't matter if the route is new or a resumption. You included a resumption date, so the source must show the date to be verifiable. The source did not, and instead only mentions "summer." While the other airport page doesn't matter, it's also just nice to edit it's page too with the routes so the pages aren't mismatched. Again, this is not vandalism if your source cannot verify the dates you are writing. That's all verifiability explained at WP:VERIFY.

Thank you!

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC))

Various airline fleets

My reasoning behind splitting these airline fleets into separate articles is that It already exists for several airlines- see United, American, Delta, Air Canada, Lufthansa, BA, Emirates, Etihad, Qantas, Air India, ETC. I do not believe there is any reason not for ANA, JAL, Korean, Asiana and Qatar to have their own fleet articles as well. All five of those airlines have a larger fleet than Etihad, which has its own article. SurferSquall (talk) 04:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Again, no consensus. See talk page for Qatar Airways as an example. VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:51, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Nobody seems to want to come to a consensus. I believe it would most make sense to do it the way those other airline article have been done. SurferSquall (talk) 03:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Might I ask why you are against having separate pages? SurferSquall (talk) 03:52, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not specifically, but there needs to be a consensus. I don't think "nobody seems to want to come to a consensus," it's only been a few days and a consensus isn't just going to happen in a few days. Give it time. VenFlyer98 (talk) 00:38, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Charter vs. Regular Passenger at BNA

Good morning! Wanted to discuss the Red Way/JSX inclusion on the destination lists at BNA. Even though they sell individual seats and operated on a schedule, JSX and Red Way are still public charter airlines legally speaking (from JSX: "Flights are public charters sold by JetSuiteX, Inc...." and Red Way: "Flights are public charters sold by Red Way acting as a Sales Agent on behalf of GlobalX Air Tours, LLC..."). I'm a little less concerned about Red Way, as they appear to at least use the public terminal, however JSX appears to use FBOs instead of the public terminal. Perhaps we find a middle ground here and label them as Charter in the table, which is an acceptable thing to do per the WP:Airports style guide. nf utvol (talk) 13:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

In the interest of transparency and public comment, moving this to the BNA talk page. Thanks! nf utvol (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Understood, discussion moving over there. VenFlyer98 (talk) 14:59, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I didn't want to air this out on the BNA talk page, but I'm a little frustrated with your rapid fire reversions of good faith, sourced edits. I made the edits based on the WP:SILENCE principle, as I tagged them as charter airlines over 2 months after my last post on the talk page, and you had , by my reading, not addressed the points I had raised. The second source of frustration is that in your first reversion, you said they weren't sourced (which you were right to do, I should have provided sources for the 2 of the 3 that didn't have the charter status already addressed in their existing sources). I added sources, as asked, and you reverted it again, seemingly moving the goal post. You may feel like these airlines don't operate as charters, but to be frank the onus is on you now to provide sources that state otherwise. Simply stating that their status as Part 135 charter airlines is irrelevant is confusing at best, and your seemingly arbitrary assertion that they aren't really charter airlines because they share some operational traits with traditional airlines is getting into WP:NOR territory.

If you really disagree with this as strongly as you appear to, I think that instead of reverting sourced edits it would have been more appropriate to do what I did, and take the conversation to the Wikiproject Aviation talk page for some additional opinions, or alternatively submit a Request for Comment. Reverting sourced, verifiable edits only leads to frustration from other users, and the risk of an edit war starting, and no one wants either of those! nf utvol (talk) 00:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Nfutvol: Understood, and maybe I am in the wrong. I totally agree with taking it to the talk page, and I didn't mean to move any kind of goal posts. BNA's page listed them without the charter tag for a while, so I was thinking along the lines of keep them removed until a consensus is reached. Happy to have it on the project's page, I just didn't want uneven pages with only BNA listing those destinations as charters when all the other ones weren't. Let's keep the discussion in the project so it isn't uneven across BNA/my talk page/and the project and is kept in one place. Guess I was just thinking backwards, as in keep it as it was until consensus. Hoping for no hard feelings! We're all in this for making sure Wikipedia has the most accurate information! VenFlyer98 (talk) 20:17, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

EDIT: Whoops, just saw your note on the BNA page. Disregard the last edit that I just removed!!! nf utvol (talk) 12:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Pittsburgh International Airport

Multiple IPs continue to add same unsourced info to this page. Time for protection. Jz0610 (talk) 17:46, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Jz0610: Would agree. I’m sure you also saw one of them didn’t exactly have the kindest words to say to me (hence one of my reverts was for WP:PA). Seems they had the similar words to say to you on your talk page as well.VenFlyer98 (talk) 08:07, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

ISP-FLL on SWA confusion

Hello! this is the IP user (you'll know who I am) In the end, it is probably better that you removed SWA's seasonal FLL resumption, because now on MacArthur Airport's FB it says that FLL is now resuming 1/6/24 instead of 11/25/23 and then I looked on SWA schedule for 1/6 and FLL is gone from ISP destinations, completely! That's unbelievable! It used to be 2x daily! I think we can all agree that SWA betrayed ISP! But enough of my venting! Sorry about my editing mistake! I'm a rookie to editing on wiki, and I've seen so much unsourced stuff that I guess I thought not everything needed a source. Sorry again about my mistake. 67.80.134.47 (talk) 19:42, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

You’re good, just make sure things have sources, like I said check out WP:VERIFY, and yes as a Long Islander I haven’t been thrilled with SWA at ISP haha.

Thanks! VenFlyer98 (talk) 21:31, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry getting back to you so late, I had received a ban that was supposed last for a year or two but it must've been repealed or something.

Anyway, hopefully Breeze can pick things up at ISP, also I'll keep looking for SWA flights to FLL if there's any news about that 67.80.134.47 (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Yea no problem, just make sure it's from a reliable source. Breeze recently extended the ORF route from ISP back to year-round so there's that.

Also reverted your edits about the Southwest bases, you can see here they are not full bases like the other airports: https://careers.southwestair.com/flight-attendants

Just letting you know why that was reverted so you're aware. (VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC))

All good. Didn't realize wasn't supposed to list it since it was still a type of base. Do you think there should be a separate satellite base parameter or is that a waste of space? 67.80.134.47 (talk) 10:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Ehhh, probably a waste of space since it isn’t a “true” base and would apply to very few airlines. VenFlyer98 (talk) 19:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree 67.80.134.47 (talk) 14:46, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Operating Base vs Focus City

I noticed you reverted my edit - was their ever official consensus on whether to classify bases with focus-city style operations (e.g.: WN at MCO) as Operating Bases, or Focus Cities? WN's operations in MCO are the definition of how a focus city operates - the question is if that supersedes that being a base or not. For the purposes of the travelling public, I would argue that an airport being known as a focus city is more useful than being an operating base. I scanned WP Airports, but couldn't find anything about this topic. Avgeek2863 (talk) 01:40, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Avgeek2863: Operating Base was added as a field to the infobox. Additionally, Southwest’s MCO ops definitely fit the definition of a base more, they have pilots and flight attendants based at MCO and it matches the actual Southwest page itself better that lists bases. Additionally, on pages like BDL, Breeze has a base, the article outright says Breeze opened a base with a reference in the history section, so go with what is referenced in that case. VenFlyer98 (talk) 16:34, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

ISP-RSW on Frontier Resuming

I checked the Frontier schedule and ISP-RSW resumes November 16, but other than seeing that the flight is bookable, there is no source. Just putting it out there in case you find a source, but either way, RSW is coming back 67.80.134.47 (talk) 14:47, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I’ll keep a lookout, thanks. VenFlyer98 (talk) 17:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

No problem, just trying to help make wiki pages complete 67.80.134.47 (talk) 17:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

How funny, I just saw your edit when I was about to let you know I saw the FB post! 67.80.134.47 (talk) 02:05, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Reverting instead of discussing on the Talk page

Hey, I started a discussion on the topic we have a different opinion about. Why don't you state your arguments there instead of reverting again? That's the normal way in these cases. See WP:EW WikiPate (talk) 22:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @WikiPate:,

First of all, I did respond on the Ryanair talk page. I said there was no consensus since you reverted my edit claiming “there was no opposition on the talk page,” but you didn’t even wait 2 days before reverting. You didn’t notify me or anyone else so how was I supposed to know you made a topic on the talk page? No one was alerted and you waited less then 2 days, of course there was no opposition because no one responded yet. Additionally, as I stated there was no consensus. The page has had the individual operators listed for well over a year, changing it because it’s “easier to edit” isn’t really a valid argument. Perhaps wait for more people to reply or open a discussion where more can see it like at Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Aviation. I also don’t see how 1 revert is considered edit warring, especially after I responded to the talk page. VenFlyer98 (talk) 00:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I wonder I wasn't notified via e-mail about your reply on the Ryanair talk page. From other Wikipedia discussions I saw 24 hours are a normal waiting time and I waited longer than that. Hm users that are interested in discussing topics have the according talk pages of articles in their watch list.

Both of the current Fleet tables of Easyjet and Ryanair you stated are factually wrong. So I wonder if even an experienced user does not state the figures in the Fleet table correctly, who else is going to do so in the future.

Even as you also removed my note to help calculating the amount of unfullfilled orders. WikiPate (talk) 10:29, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I updated them to make them accurate. I like going on fleet pages every so often and making sure they’re good. It also helps that a lot of the other operators (especially in the case of Ryanair) don’t have many orders left so it should be pretty simple to keep up to date, especially with the sources. Just think some users forget to change some numbers, but that can happen on any fleet page and is an easy fix. VenFlyer98 (talk) 03:20, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I mean current figures that you stated in the Fleet tables in both the Ryanair and Easyjet article are incorrect.

That made me wonder who will take care that the figures will be correct in the future. WikiPate (talk) 18:54, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

People will take care of it, and what do you mean current figures are incorrect? I went through and updated them based on the provided references and lined them up with their operator’s fleet tables. VenFlyer98 (talk) 00:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

In both fleet tables the total amount of unfulfilled orders is incorrect based on the figures stated above. In the Ryanair fleet table the amount of unfulfilled orders of the MAX200 is incorrect as the total order ever made is 210. WikiPate (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

In the Ryanair fleet table the total amount of planes in service is also incorrect based on the figures stated in the column above. WikiPate (talk) 20:27, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

So how, exactly, is it wrong? It matches the included airfleets reference, a reference that you put a hidden note with saying to make sure the table accurately matched it. Order number was wrong, someone must of changed it so I went in and fixed it. But for active aircraft, it matches the sources included so I’m not sure how that’s wrong. VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:13, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

The Ryanair planes in service:

29+1+410+123 does not equal the total amount of 562.

The unfulfilled Easyjet orders:

132+33 does not equal the total amount of 161. WikiPate (talk) 15:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, all fixed. Just to point out though, instead of responding on my talk page about how tables are wrong, you could just fix them yourself if you know the numbers are incorrect. Not sure how telling me helps. VenFlyer98 (talk) 07:29, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Arajet First Class seats

Hey, do you have a reference that Arajet has first-class seats in its aircraft? Which airline ordered a seat layout of Economy and first-class seats for the Boeing 737 MAX 8? Otherwise that statement would be unsourced. WikiPate (talk) 22:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@WikiPate:,

First of all, you referenced PlaneSpotters in your edit. Over at, Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Aviation, there was another discussion about using PlaneSpotters as a source, and it was pretty much agreed upon that it’s unreliable (although I don’t necessarily agree with that).

Here’s 1 source mentioning the seat layout: https://simpleflying.com/flight-review-arajet-boeing-737-economy-class-mexico-city-santo-domingo/

The fleet was originally intended for Russian Ural Airlines, but like most 737 MAXs destined to Russian airlines, other airlines picked the planes up including Arajet, the planes retained the same interior configuration and feature 8 first class recliner seats: https://aviation.direct/en/arajet-neuer-b737-max-billigflieger-fuer-die-domrep VenFlyer98 (talk) 01:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Hm,

as Planespotters is said to be unreliable I wonder it is still used and referenced for quite a number of Fleet tables. If there were a consensus of not using Planespotters, it would have been banned to be used on Wikipedia and a better reference would have been agreed on. From my experiences, Planespotters has sufficiently good data as the Airbus Orders&Deliveries Document.

Your stated Simpleflying and aviation.direct references do not confirm, that those are First Class seats. The references do not name the type of the seats at all.

The Wiki page of Ural airlines states, that the airline has Business class seats in its aircraft but not First class.

I googled if Ural Airlines intended to use First class seats on their 737 MAX planes, but no search result confirms that.

I asked the user who stated the First class seats in the Arajet article, and the user comfirmed not having a reference.

Seatmaps.com also suggests that the airline offers its cabin in (Premium) Econonmy.

Arajet itself in its booking process calls those seats just "Wide Seats".

I'm still in favor of Premium Economy, but could find a compromise on Business class. It's simply not First class. WikiPate (talk) 10:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Like I said, I don’t agree with the PlaneSpotters consensus and it’s continuing to be used across numerous articles despite the discussion, so no idea where that will end up.

You can find trip reports of Arajet online on places like YouTube, including ones in the seats upfront, and they’re pretty much the same seats that American uses in their first class. Arajet sells them as Premium I believe, and later MAX deliveries will have a different all-economy seat layout. The level of service is pretty much the same as economy I believe, but since Arajet ended up with the seats they sell them essentially as extra leg room or upgrades. The reason I was calling them First class is because they are essentially first class seats in a 2-2 layout, compared to most typical Premium Economy seats which are usually just Economy with extra leg room. The level of service isn’t quite First Class, however, so perhaps labeling it as such isn’t correct. It’s a weird situation. VenFlyer98 (talk) 02:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

ISP-TPA on SWA resuming on 10/5

Hello, you removed my edit without looking for a source to add to it first. I believe you are probably more talented than me so maybe you could make my source work (I couldn’t get it to go onto the page) https://wieck-swa-production.s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/page-3b00a21770a21c5c30a52599d18aed48/attachment/25b5ee8cfa71b62a200579ff95f4bda121efee45 67.80.134.47 (talk) 13:48, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I removed it because as I’ve said before on the numerous other times I’ve reverted your edits, you need an inline source (WP:IC) to support your edits which you did not include. This is all a part of WP:V, specifically WP:BURDEN.

As for the link you provided, it’s preferred to use independent sources not from the airline or airport. Additionally, I’d say it’s fine to leave the page alone since Southwest’s TPA-ISP flights seem to have only been suspended a bit and run all the way through the end of the booking schedule (April) instead of March like the link you provided said, so more than likely it seems to be returning as a year-round route. Finally, you mentioned how I removed it without looking for a source first. Again, WP:BURDEN, which states “Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source.” Please make sure you give WP:V a read.

Thank you, (VenFlyer98 (talk) 20:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC))

Amsterdam Airport Schiphol

You really think that a source from 2018 is still relevant, despite air traffic nearly coming to a standstill during COVID-lockdowns? The Banner talk 23:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@The Banner: Hi,

Which source are we talking about here? I'm assuming it's all the ones on the AMS page that say archived 2018. Well:

-The KLM one, despite saying 2018, takes you to a flight status page where you can verify all current flight schedules as of the current date (today's date). So despite what the source details say, it is up to date.

-Same thing for the Kenya Airways one. Despite the 2018 date in the source details, it takes you to their current website with up to date information.

-Same once again for JetBlue. It takes you to their current route map.

If you actually click on the sources, you'll see despite what they say about being archived in 2018, the links take you to the current version of all of these airlines destinations/route map pages which verify the information in the table. Just seems to be a problem with the citations details, but the links are current, so that's something that can be changed.

Not sure if you're trying to accuse me of thinking they're outdated when if you click on them, you'd see they aren't.

Thank you! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 04:01, 24 September 2023 (UTC))

At least you improved the sources. The Banner talk 09:22, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Only one that really needed it was Korean since that just linked to the Korean homepage and definitely looks like the old link was outdated. VenFlyer98 (talk) 20:13, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

JFK to LAS on AA

You reverted my edit on the JFK article that added JFK to Vegas as a seasonal route for AA. AA does run it seasonally around peak times and during CES. 38.140.191.157 (talk) 19:47, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I reverted it because the route got cut several years ago and is not a current route. AA does not fly JFK-LAS seasonally anymore. CES is basically an ad-hoc/irregular flight so it does not get included in tables. VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

CLT-MAD

CLT-MAD is still year-round. The Charlotte Observer piece that referenced the new Vancouver flight states "In April, for instance, the airline said it was offering year-round flights from Charlotte to Madrid on a route that previously had been limited to seasonal summer travel," but does not mention that the flight is now seasonal. Mstep081 (talk) 16:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Msteo081:,

Realized this, just read the article wrong. All fixed now. VenFlyer98 (talk) 16:23, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Oops

I missed the news that Red Way disbanded. Caleb M1 (talk) 19:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

JFK Airport hectares conversion

Hello. I noticed your edit about converting 21km2 to 2,104 hectares. Dont have a problem with that whatsoever. I believe it should be to the precise hectare. However, a lot of users on Wikipedia do the roundings method, i.e. 2,104 hectares would be rounded out to 2,100 hectares when the acreage is 5,000 acres, 6,000 acres, etc. The Laguardia Airport article has 680 acres=280 hectares. It is 275 hectares. A lot of my airport additions of that nature have been rounded off in that situation, and I dont change it back. I was blocked 11 years ago because I got into edit wars with someone. Involved Harry Reid Intl Airport. I changed 2,800 acres=1,133 ha, was changed back to 1,100 ha. There should be ground rules on roundings on Wikipedia to make it more consistent. What are your thoughts on this? You have a great day. Im an ex-New Yorker myself.Theairportman33531 (talk) 13:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Theairportman33531:,

Mainly just did my edit for consistency. I agree, there should be a consistent unit used across all pages. I really don’t edit this kind of content often, so I’m not really sure what to do in this case. I simply edited it for consistency with the unit and unit label. Perhaps creating a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports would be your best option.

Have a good one! VenFlyer98 (talk) 19:30, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources T F Green

I know that you know that Savannah is returning as you referenced that richmond is no longer bookable on the breeze website and uses that as your source. You can see that Savannah is now bookable. I have added a source so that you don't take it down again, but if you really think it is so necessary for there to be a source beyond the airline website for something that is obviously true, just find it yourself. Sources for regular text is one thing, airlines routes are hard to find sources for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrangeRye (talk • contribs) 23:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi @OrangeRye:,

I mentioned it when removing Richmond as there never really is articles when airlines stop flying certain routes. However, when airlines add routes, you need to include a source. This is all WP:V. Additionally, you’ll see the top of the page when editing says to use independent sources and not the airline/airport. Finally, the source you included doesn’t mention the route at all and only other Florida routes. All information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable, again this is WP:V.

Thank you! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 00:05, 9 November 2023 (UTC))

Bradley International Airport

Please stop. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at Bradley International Airport, you may be blocked from editing. FYI, Delta operates seasonal Connection service on CRJ-900's on Endeavor Air from Minneapolis-St. Paul to Hartford, especially on weekends. Please see WP:V. Additionally, please try to avoid using bare URLs as references. See WP:IC for more information. Thank you. Saturnpilot (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Saturnpilot:,

While I do think it’s funny copying pre-written Twinkle messages, listening to your own message may be a good idea. WP:IC is a good place to start if you need help with adding sources to edits.

Thank you! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC))

ORF - MSP

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/delta-to-resume-flights-from-norfolk-to-minneapolis-st-paul/ . Here is the link Anhelito26 (talk) 09:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

@Anhelito26:

Ok, not sure why you’re telling me. Sources have to be included inline on the articles. See WP:IC.

Thank you! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 15:55, 14 November 2023 (UTC))

Your revert

The amount of orders for the MAX8, 9 and 10 in the Alaska Airlines article wasn't sourced, so I added a reference. No idea, why it was removed by you. Now it's unsourced again...

"Keep current source until there is updated" needs further explanation. WikiPate (talk) 02:31, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@WikiPate:

Sources in the notes column were the sources, they listed the order numbers. Doesn’t need another ref on the actual number.

Thanks, (VenFlyer98 (talk) 09:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC))

The ch-aviation ref and the Simpleflying ref don't confirm the stated order figures (15 MAX 8, 80 MAX9 and 102 MAX10) and that is okay for you? WikiPate (talk) 16:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Of course not, I did not realize the current refs didn't match. Dug through the page history, the current refs were there for the original MAX order, then when they added more planes a new ref was added and got removed, going to re-add it. VenFlyer98 (talk) 06:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

November 2023

Calling your attention to a discussion on the World2Fly Portugal talk page I started about an edit you made. Thanks! Avgeekamfot (talk) 08:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

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Harry Reid Airport

Hi VenFlyer98, this was not just a discussion but a Request for Comments (RfC) posted at the Village Pump. It was advertised at multiple places, including WT:AIRPORTS and the talk pages of people who participated in previous RfCs on the topic. There was indeed a consensus, as indicated by the person who closed the RfC, ScottishFinnishRadish. You're right that my edit went against nearly every airport page on Wikipedia and broke WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT. That's why I started an RfC on the tables and waited to see what the consensus would be. I believe that my edit was based on the consensus that was reached. Also, I did not merely remove the tables and leave it at that (the RfC closing summary states, There is not a consensus for wholesale removal of such tables), but replaced them with a summary of the airport's current operations. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Sunnya343:,

Thanks for the comment, was hoping for a discussion. Just want to say I do completely understand the reasoning for the removal stated in the RfC, and I missed it being posted at WT:AIRPORTS, that’s my bad. I understand it was closed, but the RfC just seems to be a bunch of users either for or against it. Even the user that closed it wrote “should” which doesn’t seem 100% certain about a consensus. The main issue is you removed it from LAS’s page, but there are literally hundreds to thousands of airport articles with these tables. Why should LAS be the only one where it is removed? In my opinion, it should be none or all, and judging by the huge amount of articles, if it is indeed decided to remove them off ALL pages, it wouldn’t be no small task. There are many users in WP:AIRPORTS and WP:AVIATION who routinely edit these tables who were not involved in the RfC that are probably unaware it exists. I just think this needs to be an all or nothing type of situation for all airport pages. The user who closed the RfC seems to have basically said there were weak arguments for the supporting side of keeping the tables, and “the context could be provided in prose form” but that really doesn’t seem to be the same as “consensus is to remove them,” just “well it could be and it’s probably better” but it doesn’t read definite to me. Additionally, the consensus by the user says to keep it if there are independent sources. The LAS table does include plenty of independent sources for routes. Not all, but there are some and as some users have said, these tables can be improved. I just think there needs to be a more definite conclusion with more users aware of the conversation and if it does indeed need to be removed, that there aren’t some airports with tables and some without.

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 06:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC))

Thank you for your civility. Actually there is no consensus to remove every table all at once, nor am I in favor of that. My understanding of the closing summary is that editors should look at each article individually and determine whether it is possible to provide independent, reliable, secondary sources for the table. I said in the RfC that if someone decides to remove a table, they should replace it with an alternative description of the airport's operations that is in line with Wikipedia policies. I like this approach because it requires an editor to put in some effort, as opposed to just going on a table deletion spree, which would be disruptive.

I think the word "should" is just a reflection of how I phrased the RfC question, Should airport articles include tables that display all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to? (I based it on an example at WP:RFCBRIEF.) Regarding the phrasing of other parts of the closing summary, I view it in the context of the first sentence, ...it is clear that there is consensus that airlines and destination tables may only be included in articles when....

You're correct, there are some independent sources in the table, like for Alaska Airlines' upcoming route to PVR. However, all the references in the table, including the timetables, are primary sources, and the RfC says we need to find independent secondary sources to show the table meets WP:DUE. (Another editor actually taught me the difference between primary and secondary sources in that RfC. WP:PRIMARYNEWS was informative.) Secondary sources are unavailable for most of the routes, such as the ordinary flights on legacy carriers to their hubs. Also, there is the issue of the table going against certain parts of WP:NOT that I and other people mentioned in the RfC.

Would you be open to discussing your concerns with ScottishFinnishRadish? I think it would be useful for us to hear their perspective as well. At WP:CR it says, If you disagree with a particular closure, please discuss matters on the closer's talk page, and, if necessary, request a closure review at the administrators' noticeboard. Sunnya343 (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Sunnya343:

Thanks for the reply. I don’t really think discussing it with them is necessary, it does seem a consensus was reached so if you feel the table should be removed, go for it, although I’m sure other editors may have questions about it. I do want to point out that WP:PRIMARY does say “A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.” Wouldn’t a timetable meet this standard? If someone wanted to verify a route in the table and a timetable was a source, they could go to the source and see. Not 100% sure though, I’m obviously still not that experienced at Wikipedia. I’d rather not go on a big back-and-forth over this if the removal of tables is the consensus.

Thanks for your civility as well, always appreciated!

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 01:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC))

Some other editors mentioned that as well in the RfC, like Reywas92 and Oknazevad. Other people such as JoelleJay countered that maintaining complete, current lists of destinations goes against policies like WP:NOTDB, while ActivelyDisinterested asked whether the information is WP:DUE if only primary sources are describing it.

Also (I hope it doesn't seem like I'm stalking; I have the LAS article on my watchlist), I noticed you added JSX as an airline with a base at LAS, but is there a source for that? It's listed as a base in the JSX article, but there's no reference, and I haven't been able to find one. Sunnya343 (talk) 06:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Only thing I could find is a primary source, that being JSX's job page which lists crew bases: https://jsx.avature.net/careers/JobDetail/Direct-Entry-Captains-First-Officers-Multiple-Locations/127 VenFlyer98 (talk) 01:52, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I think that works, thank you for finding one. I believe primary sources are acceptable in this context. I used them for some of the other bases as well, like Avelo's. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Mco-tys, mco-abe beginning or resuming controversy

These two routes were served until 2011 according to this source from aeroroutes https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/231129-g4ns24 Lucthedog2 (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi, @Lucthedog2:

A route starting nearly 13 years after its last flown is not really a resumption. A resumption is more or less if an airline temporarily suspends a route then restarts it. (VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC))

ok thanks for the clarification. Lucthedog2 (talk) 23:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Banning Someone from editing.

this person keeps adding unsourced content and he has already had his three warnings so could you help me ban him? here is his ip address for his talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:70.179.24.102. Lucthedog2 (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

@Lucthedog2:

Hi,

I’m not an administrator and don’t have any power to ban someone over editing.

Thank you (VenFlyer98 (talk) 21:59, 16 December 2023 (UTC))

ok thanks i didn't know. Lucthedog2 (talk) 03:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Adelaide Airport Edit War

Hi I found your account by looking through aviation-related Wikipedia articles and seeing how you make necessary changes when parts of the article are incorrect or unsourced. If you wouldn’t mind, there is a user by the name of Luke848 who on Adelaide Airport has been adding flights to the list of airlines and destinations, which he claims will occur in the future but there is no valid source confirming a date of when these will begin, or if they will begin at all. Those who have tried to remove his edits have their edits reverted by him. He claims to work at the airport and have inside knowledge but there is no valid source. If you wouldn’t mind please take a look at the page and give your thoughts on the situation. Thanks SmileSmite83 (talk) 14:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi SmileSmite83 (talk · contribs),

Yes, according to WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT, routes need exact dates, not just months and year. Additionally, since the user works at the airport, this is WP:BFAQ (users should NOT edit pages about their organizations). Hopefully this gets taken care of.

Thank you! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 16:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC))

FYI, the User:Luke848 in question has also breached WP:3RR and is pretty much hasn't been WP:CIVIL per the Adelaide Airport edit logs. I don't have the time to fill a report, but if either you or any one watching the page can fill a WP:3RR within the 24 hours, it probably would be appreciated. Coastie43 (talk) 12:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I will be bringing this to the article talk page. Think report is the way to go if that does not resolve anything. VenFlyer98 (talk) 14:11, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on the MacArthur Airport article

Hey there @VenFlyer98,

Thanks for all your continued work ensuring that the Long Island MacArthur Airport article remains compliant with WP:AIRPORT; I saw the edit log and noticed all your efforts! As an editor who primarily focuses on Long Island-related articles, I appreciate all your hard work! –Infrastorian (talk) 18:45, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

No problem! As a Long Islander myself, I try to keep it accurate. Thanks for the kind words and also all the work you do on LI articles!

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 21:27, 20 January 2024 (UTC))

United Dulles-Beijing flight

United is apparently resuming this route on March 31, 2024 but the source is from the UA booking engine and not an independent source. Apparently UA is resuming all the pre-COVID US-China route despite Russian airspace restrictions. Jz0610 (talk) 06:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

The sources still need to be independent on the page. Keep that in mind despite what booking engines may say. VenFlyer98 (talk) 19:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Ryanair fleet order

Hi VenFlyer98, You keep on changing the order of the fleet list on Ryanair, and me and other editors keep reverting you. Wikipedia works by consensus. There is a discussion on Talk:Ryanair – if you wish to convince other editors, you'll have to participate in the discussion. Regards, cagliost (talk) 11:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Contour Airlines

Hello. User:Fredfurt removed the "charter" tags for Contour Airlines at the BWI and Middle Easter Georgia Airport pages saying that they are not charter. I have directed him to the BNA Airport talk page regarding the discussion. Thanks! Jz0610 (talk) 07:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, yep, seems like the right thing to do.

Thanks! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC))

Sources and start dates

Please do not remove source of a connection when that has started. It still source the connection itself. The Banner talk 20:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for that. I usually leave the sources. However, the route is covered by the main ref in the third coloumn. VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:21, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Air France Denver flight

The IP failed to add a source saying the flight is year round and left it as it is and deleted my message at his talk page. He said to it up on google flights. Jz0610 (talk) 15:00, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jz0610:

Just noticed it, I reverted initially since it wasn't changed on the CDG page, but I do see it's available year-round. Thanks for the fix. VenFlyer98 (talk) 00:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

US Air Carriers

We do not list options for US air carriers. Firm orders only. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 20:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@RickyCourtney:

Ricky, not sure where this consensus comes from. WP:ALFC states "Orders are for new aircraft only, other aircraft to be acquired second-hand or leased should be mentioned in the Notes." New orders only in the tables, but mentioning information about leases or options is fine if it's in the notes column.

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 05:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC))

DL seasonal suspensions

The source I linked clearly says "seasonal suspensions". Don't know why you reverted all of them. Temporary or otherwise, the routes are no longer operated year round, and should be listed under "seasonal", according to WP:AIRPORTS page content section. Also, whether the suspension is for 2 months or the full 5 months of winter, it doesn't matter. The main point is, it's no longer served year round, and should be indicated as such.

Thenoflyzone (talk) 20:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Thenoflyzone:

I understand that, but Delta typically makes flights seasonal by suspending flights entire seasons (ex. entirety of winter/summer). These are temporary for only 2 or so months, which could be for a variety of reasons. The source states seasonal, but that just seems to be a choice by the post and not actual a shift to seasonal for these routes. These are the types of suspensions that usually resume their normal schedules the following season (again due to the temporary nature of the suspensions) so they'd be listed as seasonal only to move them back the following year. Aeroroutes typically uses the "seasonal" wording for any suspension. For example, they just posted a new post about American where they write "seasonal suspension" for some routes only getting suspended for 2-3 weeks. That's not really seasonal, is it? Same is true for the Delta suspensions, they are still likely year-round with just a 2 or so month break for this specific year rather than a full seasonal suspension.

(VenFlyer98 (talk) 10:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC))

@VenFlyer98:

I understand your point as well. I agree about a 2-3 week suspension, but even then, what do we do? Do we leave the destination as is, as if it's year round, or are we going to start adding start and ends dates on these flights, which is something wiki clearly doesn't want us to do, as per WP:AIRPORTS guidelines. Hence why the seasonal mention makes sense. Several other airlines have routes they operate 9 or 10 months a year. Air Canada comes to mind. They are all listed as seasonal. Not year round. What Delta specifically does or doesn't do is not relevant. And it's not guaranteed they wont implement the same suspensions next season. I think my way of doing it is a good compromise. If ever Delta reverts the route to year round next year, we can always remove the seasonal remark.

Thenoflyzone (talk) 22:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Thenoflyzone:

Yes, I agree with you. This exact situation was actually brought up before in a discussion, see [[1]], but looks like it didn't get very far. In a lot of the cases for routes, such as the Air Canada ones, they're usually announced as seasonal which isn't the case for the Delta ones, but I'm fine with whatever at this point. VenFlyer98 (talk) 05:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. I see no consensus was reached. Maybe I'll thrown the question again and see which way the wind blows this time.

Thenoflyzone (talk) 18:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, like I said, didn’t get very far. Wouldn’t be against another discussion, but fine with however it’s listed at this point. VenFlyer98 (talk) 20:43, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Bonza

Hello, just wanted to let you know I undid an edit you made reverting a previous edit on Gold Coast Airport. You reverted it as you said the changes (reflecting Bonza flight suspensions) were unsourced. The company has entered Voluntary Administration and announced all flights are suspended until further notice. This is a headline story across major national news outlets in Australia - eg. [2]. Just wanted to make you aware so you don't revert any other edits reflecting this unnecessarily. It looks pretty likely they'll resume as their aircraft have been repossessed and they have no real assets, so it's likely Bonza will be removed from Airlines and Destinations in the coming days once liquidation formally announced. Dfadden (talk) 00:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Dfadden:

Hello,

Of course I understand what is going on with Bonza. However, the user I reverted (and further more your revert of my edit) is unsourced. Please see WP:V and WP:RS. You need to include inline citations when making edits (see WP:IC).

Thank you! VenFlyer98 (talk) 04:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand what your point and respect you rigid adherence to policy. I dont wish to argue with you, but I would I suggest since you are aware of the situation, rather than reverting good faith edits, wouldn't it be more productive to add a citation rather than revert the edit on the grounds of policy? In this case, reverting the edit is actually removing information that you know to be true and can be easily verified to enforce policy, which comes across as somewhat disingenuous, goes against the spirit of WP:BUREAU and doesnt improve actually Wikipedia. Furthermore, if you want to apply the rules in such a bureaucratic way, why only this article and not all the other Bonza destinations that show as suspended without inline citations? I would argue that it is highly likely the data relating to Bonza is going to be removed from these lists in the coming days (and you cant provide an inline citation for removed content - although its a good idea to annotate in the edit summary). Even if you dont want to add the citation, I think its reasonable to apply WP:Ignore here. But I'm not going to climb the Reichstag dressed as Spiderman over something that won't likely wont matter in a few days. Thanks for responding and hearing me out! Dfadden (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Dfadden:

I understand, but can't I say the same to you? You've had your account for over a decade at this point, I'm going to assume in good faith you know how inline citations work when citing articles. If that is true, and you saw my revert for being unsourced (as it included no inline citations), couldn't you do a manual revert and add them rather than just revert and put the citation in the edit summary? That just brings it back to the original unsourced state. I only reverted some Bonza destinations as I wasn't actively going around to all of them, but going to do that now to clean them up. As I said, going to go clean things up now and yes, I should've just thrown the inline citations in myself, and not trying to WP:SHOOT, but it was more that I was doing several reverts at a time from a user who was listing the suspensions unsourced, and you know how WP:V is. Not trying to start anything, as we both know, Bonza is probably done in the coming days, but that's just my side of it. Thanks! VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I accept that I also could have done better here and I apologise if I came across as confrontational. At the time when I reverted the edit, I was a little busy - it just jumped out at me as something that was obviously true and assumed that you may not have been across the news (I know, assumptions are dangerous!) Reverting was a quick fix. I left the citation in the edit summary as clarification in the honest belief that Bonza would be removed from the box within a day or two anyway, or at the very least there would be substantial changes to their route network rendering the source out of date by the time I had a chance to do a more comprehensive edit and clean up all the Bonza articles, or to help someone who may beat me to it.

Current and rapidly developing events are often the subject of contentious edits. I dont think we are far apart in our intent and I believe we both edit in good faith. Clearly we have a difference of opinion on where discretion is warranted regarding policy and will not change each other's minds, but I wouldnt want that to stop us from working to improve aviation content in a collaborative way! Thanks for all your contributions! Dfadden (talk) 03:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Bus Routes

I saw that you undid my revisions for all the bus routes, but I feel that they should be added somewhere because they are technically operated by American Airlines and are included in the passenger count (the busses are just replacements for E-145s and other American Eagle Aircraft). BlindGiraffe123 (talk) 10:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@BlindGiraffe123: Hello, these routes are not replacement routes. Additionally they are not operated by American or any American Eagle carrier, they are operated by Landline which is not an Eagle carrier. This was previously discussed at WP:AIRPORTS and bus routes are a violation of WP:NOTTRAVEL.

Thank you! VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. BlindGiraffe123 (talk) 01:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2024

Please stop. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at SkyTeam, you may be blocked from editing. Adding unsourced entries and marking them as needing sources is clearly accepting that there is a policy on citing every piece of information. You have violated WP:VERIFY. Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Just digging the fact that this is a level 3 warning assuming bad faith. That's fun. VenFlyer98 (talk) 01:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You already had a second-level warning for adding uncited material and are well aware of WP:VERIFY. I don't see the fun in this,--Jetstreamer ^Talk 13:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You must certainly be fun at parties. Just seeing what accurate information I can get on that page since you pretty much safeguard it. Totally get it violating policy, just seeing what I can push (understand that’s wrong). Have a good one! VenFlyer98 (talk) 21:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Mexicana Embraer Order

It was just confirmed by Embraer, see above section that I also edited and sourced. In planespotter.net, which is the source for this section, it says that the ERJ-145s are in Mexicana's possession, so they should also be listed here. Aeromax38 (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your help (MacArthur Airport)

Hi,

Thank you for your help in editing & improving the article on Long Island MacArthur Airport – and for helping me better understand WP:AIRPORTS and WP:NOTTRAVEL. I have been wanting to start doing more work on airport articles for some time now (especially in and around the NY metropolitan area), as a local who has always adored infrastructure & aviation and as someone who has long enjoyed contributing to Wikipedia – and so I appreciate the feedback which you have provided me with in the change logs. I am hoping to eventually get the article to a rating of at least GA (it needs a reassessment no matter what, though, as it is still rated as start class; I believe the last time it was assessed was 2009), and so the refresher was greatly appreciated. Again, I apologize for those good-faith errors I made and appreciate all the feedback you left.

That said, I have a question regarding destination maps out of curiosity (I recall from a year or so ago that you told me they are sometimes unnecessary, when I added one to the article without realizing they weren't necessary for the article): when is it appropriate to include those maps in an article (if ever)? I have looked through the WP:AIRPORTS talk archives and read through the content section, but have yet to find any clear, straight-to-the-point answer to that respect (then again, I saw through the archives that they have long been a subject of debate). I will not be re-adding a destination map unless I know for certain that one is warranted – and would like to help add/remove them from other airport articles that I may come across, and so any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.

Cheers, Infrastorian (talk) 19:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey, no worries! We're both just trying to make the article as best as it can be, and I appreciate you trying to get it up to GA. As for maps, there really hasn't been any clear consensus on it, but most users in the aviation project seem to be against it. Really could use another discussion over at WP:AIRPORTS, but I think it's generally agreed to not use maps. Again, could probably use a new discussion on it. Thanks! VenFlyer98 (talk) 04:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

AMS Delta PDX date

What did you change the date format? Since this is a European airport, shouldn’t the format be Day/Month/Year? 2600:1700:8544:D000:CD4C:E5E4:C3C8:23DC (talk) 12:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Correct. Don’t know why you changed it to MM/DD/YYYY after, then. It’s all fixed now. VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

New Orleans Airport - Breeze Airways routes

I've changed the sources to Simple Flying for both MSY-LAS, MSY-LAX. Both of these websites correctly source what you can find and book directly on flybreeze.com. I wouldn't source an O/D pair without it being bookable directly on the airlines webpage. Bretonrlong (talk) 04:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Bretonrlong:,

I know Breeze has these routes bookable. However, none of the sources you’ve provided meet WP:RS. SimpleFlying is not reliable either (see WP:SIMPLEFLYING).

Thanks! VenFlyer98 (talk) 02:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard of. So because someone considers these data sources to “not be reliable” the page is displaying incorrect destination information for the airport. This page is UNRELIABLE!! The route is literally bookable directly on Breezes own website, how much more reliable can you get. Bretonrlong (talk) 22:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Bretonrlong:

This is the policies of Wikipedia, please see WP:RS and WP:V. You need reliable, secondary sources. The ones you are providing are not reliable. I am not the only one who would consider these unreliable, plenty of users do. Not sure how often you edit airport articles, but they need to follow Wikipedia's policy on reliability. If you find a reliable source, then add it so the article is accurate, but don't get angry at me for following Wikipedia's own policies. VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I've actually been editing airport articles for years. It makes zero sense to need a secondary source if the airline themselves offer said service FOR SALE on their own website. What exactly is needed for proof a receipt of purchase? I would never trust any secondary source over the primary airline source. By reverting the page it not only makes the wiki page unreliable, but also reduces public trust in the page. As for some of the airline blogs, especially those that appear to now be AI generated, I understand your point completely and agree those shouldn't be sourced. However, if the airline itself is offering the service and its bookable directly on their website (not through a third party website) that should be considered a source truth (better than a secondary source). Bretonrlong (talk) 00:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

This is the part I have a beef with

"I know Breeze has these routes bookable. However, none of the sources you’ve provided meet WP:RS. SimpleFlying is not reliable either (see WP:SIMPLEFLYING)."

Curious, why are you just undoing rather than contributing and providing better sources? In the above statement you even admit the routes are bookable. So if several hundred passengers book this service, but no one writes an article about said service, that service doesn't exist? Bretonrlong (talk) 00:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Does this article suffice?

https://neworleanscitybusiness.com/blog/2024/07/08/breeze-airways-adds-nonstop-route-from-new-orleans-to-tourist-destination/ Bretonrlong (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Bretonrlong: It has been discussed numerous times at WP:AIRPORTS that you need RELIABLE SECONDARY sources for airline routes (see WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT, which states "airlines and destination tables may only be included in articles when independent, reliable, secondary sources demonstrate they meet WP:DUE. A review of the closure of that RfC yielded no consensus to overturn it"). There has been RfCs about this before and most recently, it was agreed that these tables need secondary, reliable sources when adding information. As for me reverting, I have been trying to find better sources but none are available yet and I couldn't find any. The link you provided is the best one I found, it just doesn't mention the date for the LAX route. Additionally, using the airline's own website and booking engine is WP:OR, which is why that isn't allowed to be a source. Feel free to trust the primary source, but on Wikipedia we use secondary reliable sources. VenFlyer98 (talk) 01:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you joking? With airlines routes you have to use published schedules…not news articles. Tofutwitch11 (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Stop adding incorrect information

I don’t know what the deal is, but BDL-IAH does not resume until March 2025 per United schedules. Your source is incorrect, just because it’s published on the internet does not mean it is right. It is outdated and inaccurate, please stop adding incorrect info. Tofutwitch11 (talk) 21:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tofutwitch11: You need a reliable, secondary source. The airline’s schedule is a primary source that is WP:OR, and WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT states “The consensus among the participants in a 2023 request for comment (RfC) was summarized as follows: airlines and destination tables may only be included in articles when independent, reliable, secondary sources demonstrate they meet WP:DUE.” You can’t use primary sources (airline’s websites) as a source. Thank you. VenFlyer98 (talk) 01:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Wrong wrong wrong. So you are letting articles show wrong outdated info? I don’t get it. How can you keep saying that BDL-IAH starts in September when that is simply not true? Are you for real? What a joke this has become Tofutwitch11 (talk) 11:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, every single airport article has the AIRLINE SCHEDULES listed as a source for the destinations table. JFK- every source for the timetable is literally the airline schedules. So with your mindset I should be OK to remove the entire airlines and destinations page on every airport unless there is a source that isn’t from the airline or the airport (that would be too accurate or primary) to source the info from. Right? Tofutwitch11 (talk) 11:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Stop adding wrong information to the protect Tofutwitch11 (talk) 11:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tofutwitch: Again, please see WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT. There was a big RfC at WP:AIRPORTS and the consensus was, when adding any information to destination tables on airport articles, you need a reliable, secondary source that supports your information which you have been failing to provide. The only reliable source for BDL-IAH shows the date. If it’s wrong, then please find a RELIABLE SECONDARY source that supports a different date. If you cannot, then leave the information alone. This is Wikipedia policy, please see WP:V and WP:RS. Thank you. VenFlyer98 (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

So then we should be deleting the entire destinations page for every airport, right? Because they all list the AIRLINE TIMETABLES as a source. Tofutwitch11 (talk) 18:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tofutwitch11: This has been discussed before at WP:AIRPORTS and I’m not disagreeing with you about it, but that’s a much bigger issue for a different time. When it comes to adding information, however, you need a reliable, secondary source. VenFlyer98 (talk) 19:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

You can disagree about the tables, but arguing that you need a news article when nothing is more accurate than the primary source (airline) is ridiculous. It’s openly putting false information on the project. Airline schedules change constantly, and assuming there is a news article to report them all is insane. Yet even more insane is ignoring obvious truths to post a lie just because you have what you consider a “reputable source”, though outdated, clearly. Following “policy” (as you interpret) in a way that makes you publish inaccurate information is a waste. Tofutwitch11 (talk) 19:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tofutwitch: It’s not about it being a “news article,” it’s about it being a reliable source. Booking engines (like Google Flights) do not meet WP:RS. If you add it again, I’ll probably just throw a “citation needed” or “better citation needed” since you seem to rather want to edit war than find a reliable source. Waste of energy on my end at this point. VenFlyer98 (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I’ve provided 2 different sources for BDL-IAH. Tofutwitch11 (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tofutwitch: Ok, that’s great, but they aren’t reliable sources. How many times can I say booking engines like Google Flights and FlightsFrom are not reliable? They are WP:OR. That makes them not reliable. You’ve been on Wikipedia for 15+ years at this point, you should understand Wikipedia policy. Seeing as you’d rather call my edits vandalism, you refuse to understand policy but I’m done at this point. VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Lol, this is ridiculous. You are out here putting obviously false information on Wikipedia, citing an outtdated and wrong source. When all the other tables are cited via airline timetables - what is wrong with this? Or why don’t you delete the whole table? Tofutwitch11 (talk) 22:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

If you really care about the accuracy of Wikipedia why are you sitting here debating me when it is glaringly obvious that the flights are not resuming September 25? Do you think United really would have this route NOT be bookable if it was starting in 2 months? And the many sources that you say are not reputable (yet they aren’t from United, and are reputable) that show March 30? FlightsFrom literally states on the website that flights start “03302025”. …. Tofutwitch11 (talk) 22:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tofutwitch11: Of course I know when flights are beginning, but for Wikipedia, you need reliable sources that state this. You are not providing reliable sources. I really don’t understand what is so hard about understanding that and finding a reliable source. VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

So you are admitting the information for the September start is wrong and your source is out dated? Tofutwitch11 (talk) 22:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tofutwitch11: and there is no reliable source that states such. Unless you find one, add it. You keep adding sources that are not WP:RS and edit warring with me. That’s vandalism. Why is this so hard to understand? VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding accurate information isn’t vandalism. Every airline / destination page is sourced to airline timetables. That being said, I found another source, FlightsFrom, that literally states the route starts 2025-0330. And yet you continue to revert my changes with your out dated source? No, that is vandalism. It is clear also that my source is correct, when cross referencing with the airline. Are you trying to make Wikipedia worse? spreading false info? Tofutwitch11 (talk) 22:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

All I’m saying is your sources are NOT reliable. Reliable sources are required on Wikipedia to be used as sources. You refuse to understand that and I’m starting to think we may be dipping into a competence issue here. Not sure how many times I can explain it. VenFlyer98 (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Certainly a competence issue. So what happens September 25 when the flights don’t start? We just leave the wrong information because there is no newer source? And how can you say that FlightsFrom is any different than your source? Also, again, if every airlines/destinations table uses airline website / timetables as a citation, how is this different? Still found another source… and you debate it. Imagine believing in the integrity of Wikipedia and then obviously publishing false info using an old source. Tofutwitch11 (talk) 22:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

However you want to cite it is up to you, but Avelo DAB-BDL starts November 8th. The only reason I'm even addressing this is you Level 3'd me for not citing, yet reverted it each time to your post and source which yields, at least regarding this city pair, incorrect information. Even after correcting with secondary sources to verify the date (DB News-Journal, WFTV), you again reverted it to November 7th. JSprague24 (talk) 04:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jsprague24: All good, it was my bad. Think I just got confused. It’s all fixed now, my mistake. As I said on your talk page, just remember to try and not use bare URLs. As for the level 3, that was due to the original edit in addition to past edits you made unsourced. You’ve been making edits for several years, so you should be familiar with the policy regarding that. Anyway, as I said it was my bad. Thanks! VenFlyer98 (talk) 06:38, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

All good! Jsprague24 (talk) 17:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Disrespectful Without Permission

⚠️@VenFlyer98 If You Do It, Or If You Disobey me, I'll Block You For Watch You Did! You Blocking Me Because I Was Try To Replace Change To New Planes, Not Old, As Been 23.1 Years Ago, In You Don't Understand, YOU KNOW WHAT???? I HAD NO CHOICE, BUT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BLOCK IT, AND YET, YOU JUST BLOCK IT ME BECAUSE WATCH YOU DID, IN THAT IT SO UNACCEPTABLE SO PREPARE YOURSELF. JUST YOU WAIT IN SEE!!! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOU ANYWAY!!!!!!! Holoanimetiktok (talk) 15:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@Holoanimetiktok: Uhhh…ok then. Just don’t WP:PA. VenFlyer98 (talk) 17:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Good! Holoanimetiktok (talk) 17:58, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@Holoanimetiktok: I mean, don’t threaten me or anything like that. I don’t even really understand what you’re saying, but hey, you do you. VenFlyer98 (talk) 18:08, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I know i know, but i'll stop that, and then, i'm calm down, In You apology accepted! I believe you!:) Holoanimetiktok (talk) 02:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)