Firefangledfeathers

Contentious topics awareness notices (reviewed July 29, 2024)

NPOV Discussion

Hi Firefangledfeathers I would like to check with you with regards to the discussion at NPOV board where you commented. According to WP:RSP, The Economist is considered generally reliable. However some editors argue that this Economist article is an opinion piece, because WP:RSP also states that "The Economist publishes exclusively articles in editorial voice with no byline". Referring to this statement - on tone and writing, some editors consider every Economist article to be an opinion piece, and therefore not suitable for use in Wikipedia. In my opinion, that certainly contradicts the strong community consensus that The Economist is generally reliable, which was reached at the last RFC: [1] Also, in that RFC, I don't see any consensus for the wording about The Economist publishing articles exclusively in editorial voice. Checking through history, I see that this wording was introduced by one user: [2], who referred to his own comments here: [3] Previous wording appeared to suggest that The Economist published both regular articles and editorial pieces. I don't see that The Economist article in question is identified as an opinion piece on The Economist website, and blanket dismissal of all Economist articles is in my view against Wikipedia policies and general consensus. I would like to have some guidance on this, as it seems the longer this difference in opinion continues without admin guidance, the more agitated the disagreeing user(s) are becoming, and the goal here is progress and updating the article, rather than getting in to a back and forth. What would be your advice in this situation? Should I raise this question at WP:RSP again? Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 12:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest asking at WP:RSN, which has more viewers. I do think Economist doesn't distinguish clearly between opinion and fact, but maybe there's a better way of saying so; "exclusively in editorial voice" seems a bit off to me. Incidentally, it's not true that the current description makes the Economist not suitable for use here, just that attribution is needed. It's a very reputable publication, and most topics that aren't bursting at the seams with reliable non-opinion sources should probably include any relevant Economist commentary. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Much obliged for the comment, I will follow your advice. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 17:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers Hi there! Apologies for reaching out again, but I would greatly appreciate some further experienced guidance on the dispute resolution process. The recent discussion at WP:RSN resulted in a consensus that not every Economist article should be considered an opinion piece, and that it is up to editors to discern which parts of an Economist article are news reporting and which are commentary. Consequently, the cited Economist report should not be dismissed under RSOPINION. With this understanding, I believe the RSP entry needs to be updated to reflect the community’s stance. What would be the best way to go about making this change?

Additionally, the argument that news reports are unacceptable based on WP:MEDRS was also not upheld, as WP:MEDPOP provides a clear exception. This leaves us with objections based on WP:DUE. I am wondering, how many reliable sources are generally required to establish that a topic is DUE? For instance, the story about Dr. Levine's pressure to remove minimum age requirements for treatment has been reported by The Economist, The New York Times, The Hill, and The Telegraph, all of which are recognized as reliable sources per WP:RSP. I have not included mentions from lesser-known outlets, focusing only on highly reputable ones. Moreover, this issue sparked public debate, as evidenced by op-eds in prominent outlets like The Washington Post, The NYT, and The Guardian. While op-eds aren’t considered reliable sources themselves, and while not RS, their presence indicates the topic has garnered significant attention. Furthermore, the U.S. administration responded to the NYT reports by denying its involvement, strongly suggesting it may have been Dr. Levine’s personal initiative. Adding to this, the U.S. Congress Subcommittee on Health Care and Financial Services has launched an investigation, seeking documents related to health officials' interactions with WPATH based on the NYT's reporting. All these factors point to a significant controversy covered by numerous reliable sources.

The user opposing the inclusion of this material claims it is already covered in the SOC8 article, but I have not been able to find it there. Moreover, it seems unlikely that a story reported in 2024 would be included in discussions of reports from 2022, which are referenced in that article. My final question is: what would be the best way to request opinions on the assertion that the issue of external influence on WPATH's decision-making is already covered in another article?

I really appreciate your time and any advice you can provide on these matters. Thank you! Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 08:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll be able to check out the discussions later today. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

If I'm reading the article talk page discussion right, the thing the other editor said was at the SOC article is

This version of the protocol gives no specific age limits for treatments, emphasizing the need to decide individually for each patient. An earlier draft would have required several years of transgender identity before an adolescent could begin treatment. After criticism from transgender advocates, this provision was removed in the final release.

I assume you're looking for a version that mentions Levine's advocacy specifically. Since other editors feel content about the SOC is better suited to its own article, have you considered expanding there first? It would be reasonable, I think, to assess how due the content is at SOC before assessing how the expanded/altered version there should be summarized at the WPATH article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers thank you for the consideration, and the advice. Per your suggestion, I added the information with attribution to the sources Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 10:31, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers I see that User:Raladic has removed the mention of Dr. Levine, and the reference to The Economist has also been removed, despite the community confirming that it is a reliable source. [4] Initially, the concern raised was about the reliability of the sources cited, such as The Economist, on the WPATH page. However, it seems that the underlying issue, according to what i see in the reversion, might be more about the content itself rather than the validity of the sources.

The entire controversy revolves around the involvement of this particular official, Dr. Levine, in influencing WPATH's decisions, which is documented by multiple reliable sources. How can this removal be justified when it has already been established that these sources are valid and notable? Is this not an example of tendentious editing? Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 12:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the best next step is talk page discussion. Feel free to ping me and I should be able to get to it soon. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers ok great, I will follow your input on this matter. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 09:15, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

New pages patrol September 2024 Backlog drive

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Question from Hydronym89 on Joseph Al-Zehlaoui (19:13, 26 August 2024)

Heya, I have no idea how this works, but this article is missing a pretty important section on the controversy surrounding his deposition. When I write it up do you mind letting me ping you to take a look at it to make sure I'm covering a sensitive topic like this correctly? --Hydronym89 (talk) 19:13, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Hydronym89. Sure! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Perfect! I added the section, as well as wrote out some information on the talk page that may be relevant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Joseph_Al-Zehlaoui please advise! Hydronym89 (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll be able to check it out in the next few hours. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Lumbarschen

Hello, the user whom you recently p-blocked is now edit-warring at Epirus [5]. Also almost certainly a sock of the indeffed Arbe21 21 (talk · contribs). Khirurg (talk) 11:23, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Wow, "edit warring" and accusing me to be someone. I reverted an Edit which is more accurate than the cited source that was there about "Epirus is the northwestern area of ancient Greece" while it talked about modern Greece, i'm not edit warring but i'm reverting an edit which has a better source than the ones that were cited before — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lumbarschen (talk • contribs) 11:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Lumbarschen, you are edit warring. Even though you only reverted once, it was participation in an edit war over that version. I'm not going to sanction for it, but if this pattern continues, you are likely going to be blocked or topic banned. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Khirurg, based on a quick look, I'm not seeing the connection as obvious. If you have evidence, please file at WP:SPI (you can ping me, and I'll check it out if I can). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers But why am i "Edit warring" when i'm simply reverting a better option for that page? May i please know it? And how am i supposed to Edit or Revert more accurate things without "edit warring"? At this point i just should stop editing since none of my edit or reverts seems to be useful and is considered edit warring — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lumbarschen (talk • contribs) 12:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Lumbarschen, please read through the edit warring policy. If you have any questions, ask them. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

And still edit-warring [6]. Note the edit summary is dishonest, that edit is anything but a "small adjustment with a better source". Also, this user is almost certainly a sock, the SPI can be found here: [7]. Thanks. Khirurg (talk) 11:09, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted them. Now, I might not know a lot about Epirus, but I find it very hard to believe that "the cited source on "Epirus being the northwestern area of ancient Greece" seems to refer to modern Greece rather than ancient Greece" when the source is The Oxford Classical Dictionary. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 12:07, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring continues. I've reported them, seeing Firefangledfeathers hasn't been active for a couple of hours and might be getting a good night's sleep, hopefully. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 12:15, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

A restful sleep and a nice family weekend morning. I blocked the user for 48h for the edit warring. Hope to look at the SPI soon. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

statutory city help

Thanks for your help. It was easier than I thought. I'd not created a page before. Seananony (talk) 17:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

No problem, Seananony. Congrats on your first page creation! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Question from MWinter4 (09:03, 9 September 2024)

I accidently created the article Direct sum (polytope theory) in main space. I actually wanted to create it in my user space. Waqar moved it to drafts, but I would really prefer it to remain in my user space without a redirect from a draft page. Can you move it to my user space? --MWinter4 (talk) 09:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey MWinter4. So moved. I believe you have all the user rights necessary to enact such moves in the future, Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I was hoping to leave no redirect from the draft page since it was created unintentionally. This was also the reason why I did not move myself. MWinter4 (talk) 13:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry. I misread that "without". The redirect is at least potentially useful to someone else, and it's relatively harmless. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Re: Barnstar Award

		The Wikipedia Motivation Barnstar
		Appreciation for all your Motivation within Wikipedia Community TriosLosDios

TriosLosDios (talk) 21:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

What a kindness! Many thanks, TLD! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Create article

Hello my dear friend. I want to write an article. Please allow me to make an article because I have translated many articles. ZZ510 (talk) 15:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi ZZ510, and welcome to Wikipedia. If you have a background as a translator, your experience will be very useful here. You may want to get started by translating articles that exist on other language Wikipedias. Wikipedia:Translation has info on this process. Whether you're translating an article or creating a brand new one, you'll want to start in draftspace. You won't be able to create a new page in our main article space until you're autoconfirmed, which will happen once you've made 10 edits and been around at least four days. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks my dear friend. ZZ510 (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 64

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Thanks

Hey, just wanted to drop a quick note of thanks for your note on the talk discussion. I try to hold back, but sometimes it can get exceedingly frustrating when having to rehash the same things over and over, so thanks for your note on the tone :) Raladic (talk) 14:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for holding back and stepping back! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

African American History Page

Hello- just circling back with you because you reversed some work I contributed to the African American History page. Im a bit unclear from your comment what the concern is?? Can you help me better understand? RFAvaria (talk) 19:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing I'd prefer to discuss at the article talk page. If you start a discussion, fee free to ping me. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:49, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I apologize im not sure I know how to do that.... do you mind starting a talk there or can we discuss here? Im interested to hear your thoughts... I know its a work in progress with a long way to go, but I am trying my best to honor the contributions of others and not delete them so trying to add relevant content and put events in chronological order gets a bit more difficult.

I just feel like if someone put their hard work into writing something I should try to work around it so it just seems to take longer. anyway.....ill wait until you start a convo "ping" lol on some other area thanks RFAvaria (talk) 20:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

when I clicked the "talk" button it routed me back here RFAvaria (talk) 20:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

just making a not here to let you know I started a topic over there ...awaiting your feedback thanks ! RFAvaria (talk) 20:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)