Wikipedia:ANI vs. WMF Indian editors

Contacted by one of the editors

The above section has gotten so long (and has started to go off on tangents) so I'll start this new.

I was emailed by one of the editors, who asked me to please post for them so they could remain anonymous. This is an editor with thousands of edits over multiple projects.

"Hello, I apologize for troubling you. As an admin, I trust you with this sensitive matter. Yesterday, I was notified that I'm one of three editors implicated in the ANI vs. Wikipedia defamation suit. As an Indian, I'm deeply distressed that the Wikipedia Foundation plans to disclose my personal details. With India being a significant market for the Foundation (receiving a billion views daily), I feel betrayed by their actions, which seem to prioritize their interests over our well-being.

I've done nothing but revert IP users' edits attempting to remove stable content without proper summaries. I haven't added any original content to the page.

Also, I'm worried about the Delhi High Court's jurisdiction outside India and its authority compared to India's Supreme Court.

"India's Supreme Court has overturned Delhi High Court rulings several times, with opposition parties labeling it a pro-government court. However, if Wikipedia were banned in India by the Delhi High Court and the Foundation appealed to the Supreme Court, WMF would likely prevail. Such a victory would not only benefit Wikipedia but also uphold free speech in India."

Valereee (talk) 10:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

So even reverting unconstructive edits was enough to get your name in the lawsuit. Ratnahastin (talk) 11:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing that they edits they reverted were removing the content ANI objects to. BilledMammal (talk) 11:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps those IPs belonged to ANI? Afterall ANI admitted that they tried to get the content removed until the page was placed under extended confirmed protection. [1] Ratnahastin (talk) 15:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The fact that at least one of the editors is in India changes things - it goes from concerning to a major issue.

I think it is time to start preparing our response, and I propose that we do it in two stages:

• First, we write a letter to the WMF similar to what Rhododendrites proposed above, expressing our stance that in circumstances like this we expect the WMF to protect editors, both as a matter of principle and because the chilling effect of not protecting editors will be significant.
• Second, we prepare a contingency for what we will do if the WMF does disclose the information. I propose, similar to Yngvadottir's proposal, we target WMF's fundraising if they do proceed with it, as based on past precedent they only respond when their money is under threat. Specifically, I propose we run our own banners above the WMF's banners during the next major fundraising event, informing our readers that the WMF has sufficient funds to not need their donations, and that editing community requests that they boycott donating this year, to send a message to the WMF about the importance of protecting editors and preventing censorship.

We would, of course, first need to determine that both of these have community support - probably through an RFC. BilledMammal (talk) 11:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Valereee: Above, Joe claims that they (WMF) had notified the users at the start of the litigation but here, we have the user claiming that they were only notified yesterday. Can you reconcile the two statements? Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 11:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I can confirm that what I've quoted is a direct quote, but I'll reach back out. Valereee (talk) 11:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, V. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Response:

Despite following news on the defamation suit, I was unaware that I'm one of the editors involved. I've been in contact with the WMF over the past three days. They informed me that my name may be disclosed by November 8th and offered to recommend lawyers to assist me tomorrow. The foundation also assured me that they will cover all my legal fees.

Valereee (talk) 14:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

For all the criticism we're sending their way in this thread, just noting for the record that I very much appreciate The foundation also assured me that they will cover all my legal fees. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I also appreciate that they're doing their job and directing donations to the programs they were earmaked for... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

That's the least they could do after exposing editor identities to a kangaroo court. Ratnahastin (talk) 14:33, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It's like thanking FEMA for assisting you on a disaster. The help is appreciated, but that's why your taxpayers/donations are for. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 02:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

If court summons the editor in their personal capacity, and if it finds the editor guilty, they'll ask for apology, which will make wmf's appeal weaker. Also, there is a real fear of reprisals once the name is outed like here. — hako9 (talk) 14:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The possible knock-on effects of any disclosure in a cases such as this are too numerous to even summarize. Providing access to a legal defense fund is not an act anywhere in the same universe of effectively negating the consequences of sharing this PII in the first place. We are talking about nothing less than the stone cold betrayal of these volunteers, and an offensive denial of the community's place in deciding if this is the Wikipedia we want, and what our priorities should be in this case. Whether the encyclopedia being more easily available in India is worth 1) obviating principle protections to our volunteers working and 2) allowing the kind of suppression of content as is involved here--or indeed, whether either is even a functional possibility for us without doing immense organizational and value damage to the whole endeavour--are questions we should all be answering together. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• To the person concerned about the suit. Don't be. Unless and until a court issues a summons against you, nothing will happen. And court cannot summon you until wmf gives out your info. — hako9 (talk) 12:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Two things: Valereee, have you verified what the user says is an accurate summary of their edits (ignore this if it's impossible to answer without outing this user, of course)? Also, BilledMammal, while I've been clear that I'm down for a statement of principle of some sort, I think we need more information before concluding the WMF is handling this incorrectly (and before embarking on some form of protest). If/when it comes to a protest, IMO the perennial WMF protesters who have gone after WMF fundraising/banners for all sorts of reasons in the past, down to and including the wording that appears on the banners, do not send a sufficiently strong message about this issue, especially with the same plays. I don't know what form of protest would be most appropriate. Worth talking about options sometime, but I don't think we're quite there yet. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I’m not sure what would be stronger than going after their money, with the added benefit that this would be a very visible protest.

  The issue is we’ve only got two tools at our disposal; a strongly worded letter, and going after their money. I suggest we try the letter first, and then the money if that fails. BilledMammal (talk) 13:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  BilledMammal, does that mean you don't agree with Rhododendrites' comment that we need more information before concluding the WMF is handling this incorrectly? Or just that you think some form of protest is appropriate now, regardless of whether the WMF is handling it incorrectly? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think we already have enough information to know the WMF is handling this incorrectly - disclosing editor PII in this case means they are handling it incorrectly, and they are now days away from doing so. This means we need to act now. BilledMammal (talk) 14:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  We don't have confirmation that the disclosing is actually going to happen. Don't jump the gun. Nakonana (talk) 17:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I have to disagree. When the disclosing happened it would already been too late. It's better to nip this on the bud before it happened rather than just protesting when it had happened. Protest against a government bill happened before the bill is passed, not when it had passed. The action is needed NOW to dissuade WMF from doing such actions. If WMF decided to not disclose, we can close up the campaign. If WMF decided to disclose, we can continue the campaign. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 02:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think the whole discussion here made it already more than clear to WMF that editors are not happy with the prospects of data being disclosed. Continuing to repeat the same things over and over again just distracts them from focusing on handling the legal case properly. Is there really anything that still needs to be said but hasn't been said by now in this whole discussion and that WMF really needs to know but doesn't know yet...? Nakonana (talk) 04:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think the WMF, who would be spending quite a lot to deal with these demands (and, it turns out, the legal fees of the users involved) has any philosophical or financial interest in setting a harmful precedent here. I also think we have a dearth of relevant legal expertise in this thread. I'm open to the possibility that the sealed cover offer was strategic, or that there's something else going on which would complicate the "WMF is selling us out" view. There's no way I'm going to support a protest action that's intended to interfere in those legal proceedings. We should make our stance clear, but decide what comes next only when we have the information. That mighty mean after the case, but if we make a clear statement in advance, it won't be a surprise. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:10, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  The issue is that the WMF is choosing to prioritize... something... over protecting the PII of editors acting in accordance with our policies and guidelines. There is nothing I can imagine that can justify that - can you? BilledMammal (talk) 15:28, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  The only things I can imagine are the real-life safety of an individual. I cannot imagine that that's true here, so I'd support the RFC for both the letter right now and the banner if PII is disclosed. Tazerdadog (talk) 15:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  These conspiracy theories are totally counterproductive. Theknightwho (talk) 21:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Rhodo, there is a minor inaccuracy in their description of their edits that in my view is both meaningless and understandable -- in fact I won't go further because it may make the editor identifiable -- and which I believe most other editors would also find meaningless and understandable. Valereee (talk) 13:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  But you do know the username, right? It's not just some random unidentifiable editor who claims to be affected — you can exclude that possibility, right? Nakonana (talk) 17:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I know the username. Valereee (talk) 20:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  You say "emailed" above, but the first message was through Special:EmailUser right (just to make sure)? fiveby(zero) 21:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  New questions have been raised, and I believe it's time to talk about a response. The goal is to tell the WMF that they should not do so, rather than wait and say they should not have done so. The affected editor says They informed me that my name may be disclosed by November 8th. The WMF must be aware that if they capitulate to a private organization's attempts to censor Wikipedia through a foreign court and compromise the safety of our peers, then they will be crossing a point of no return. As someone who's strongly criticized the wording of the donation banners in the past, that is very low on my list of priorities right now and I don't particularly care whether the banners specifically are a subject of our response. At a minimum, I'd like a formal statement signed by the community, whether it be an RfC, a list of signatures, or anything else. The next step is a more public, reader-facing response. And if neither of those are sufficient? Snow Rise, let us know when you've drafted the notice of departure you mentioned above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I fully agree with drafting a pair of formal statements, directed at the WMF itself and the public respectively. Compromising the safety of Indian editors in this way is unacceptable. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Am I the only one who, looking at what few communications we have received to date from the WMF on this matter now have the feeling of being accurate more to the technical letter of the truth than the spirit? I am not prone to this kind of cynical disposition when it comes to this movement, but there is just a feeling of being managed that hovers over the Foundation's approach to the community on this one.

  Mind you, I think the talk of fundraiser banners issue needs to exit this conversation, like immediately. Please don't bring any preconceptions about the WMF into this dialogue. Many of us find many of those arguments to involve a lot of conspiratorial thinking and absurd exaggerations--as have many habitual complaints about the WMF. More to the point, there is is no need for it here: it's quite easy to be someone who has generally had full faith and confidence in the WMF up to the present day (that's me, more or less), to still be horrified and adamantly opposed to the strategy being contemplated by the Foundation's leadership in this instance. Miring and tying concerns to older, different issues will not help bring clarity to this matter. And there's more than enough to be concerned about in relation to the immediate concerns. To the extent that the WMF's response to date seems to have mollified an outburst from the community initially, I hope some are starting to re-assess the wisdom of forgoing a strong and unified demand for deeper engagement to be made immediately. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Unfortunately TBUA, even in the circumstances I didn't think to believe I might need it so soon. I am so discouraged. I've never anticipated ever feeling so inclined to believe the senior WMF leadership could lose the plot so completely on such important issues. This is really a sea change for me. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you know what the last paragraph is a quote from? Nardog (talk) 23:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

My deepest sympathy for the emailer notwithstanding, I doubt WMF is "prioritiz[ing] their interests" by trying to maintain its presence in India. The billions of pageviews incur nothing but cost for WMF, and donations from North America and Europe dwarf those from Asia. I assume it chose to fight the case rather than close up shop out of inertia and not being nimble enough to do so. Nardog (talk) 00:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• What does "my name may be disclosed" mean? Surely all the WMF can do is disclose the IP address of a specified user? I know that is serious and could easily lead to full identification, but some clear wording would be helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 00:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  WMF could disclose the email of the editor, and in most cases it will "out" the editors anyway. And for a company ANI-size it is trivial to subpoena the ISP to give out the name as well. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 02:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee, I have some questions about the message you have received.

1. Is the editor who sent you the message one of the editors who had worked on the ANI article?
2. Did they share with you any correspondence with WMF with regards to this matter?
3. When was the initial email sent to you?

Am asking as the rest of us don't have the necessary information to verify the person and the message(s). – robertsky (talk) 02:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

There is an article here that somehow details what kind of edit that ANI have a problem with. Seeing what kind of edit they are trying to introduce we can see that a lot of innocent edits can be classified as "defamation" by ANI. We can also see how they wrongly identify "Wikimedia" and "Wikipedia administrators" as the one trying to remove their statement. To be honest, such edits that ANI tried to make will be removed promptly by anyone running an anti-vandalism tool. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 02:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I previously speculated after reviewing the revision history and their own admission regarding their involvement on this article that they could have filed lawsuit against the editors who reverted their attempts at whitewashing, rather than the actual authors. Ratnahastin (talk) 03:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the article, however it does not answer the questions I have above. – robertsky (talk) 07:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

[2] If the initial email came from wiki@wikimedia.org with the DMARC signatures then #1 should be answered. fiveby(zero) 10:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

yeah... If it is. – robertsky (talk) 12:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Robertsky, I'm not going to provide any details this editor didn't ask me to share. Valereee (talk) 12:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

New developments that might be relevant to this. Ratnahastin (talk) 15:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Per my reading of this, the disclosure of identities is one of the main issues being pressed right now, and the WMF is putting up a fight. That's good to hear, and I can completely understand why they don't want to lay out their full thought process while the appeal is still being considered. My concern right now remains with the anonymous email, particularly whether we can reconcile the WMF's statements and actions with I was unaware that I'm one of the editors involved and They informed me that my name may be disclosed by November 8th. Valereee I'm glad that you're leaning toward privacy and ask that you keep doing so, but more information is really needed here. Could you ask the editor in question for a rough timeline, namely when they were first made aware and when they were given the November 8 estimate (or if they're reading this, would you consider sending it to Valereee). Yesterday, I was notified and in contact with the WMF over the past three days suggests we don't know the true timeline right now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

tbua, I'm trying to be supportive rather than trying to investigate. This is undoubtedly very stressful for this person, and I'm not going to add to that. Valereee (talk) 17:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I can respect that you didn't want to push further; I wouldn't have asked if this weren't critically important. Based on the reply below, it looks like the timeline adds up and the WMF has done its due diligence in this regard. It remains to be seen what they do with the information, and what the consequences end up being, for the victims, the community, and the WMF's operations in India. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Update:

"I received an email from WMF on July 24, but unfortunately, I didn't notice it. Had someone notified me on my talk page, I would have taken action sooner. WMF sent a follow-up email on October 28, which I didn't notice until November 1. Seeking clarification, I asked WMF if the email targeted all Indian editors or specifically those in ongoing defamation suits. They clarified on November 2, revealing my involvement and the initial email sent in late July.

Since November 1, I've been in touch with WMF. They've consistently stated (as recently as today) that they may disclose editor details in a sealed cover by November 8. Additionally, WMF is arranging Indian lawyers to assist me, covering fees under their Legal Fees Assistance Program."

Although the foundation may provide legal assistance, I'm uncertain about navigating the broader implications:

Valereee (talk) 18:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing they didn't want to use the talkpage in this context. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Update

"I received a new email from the WMF a few hours ago. They updated me that they are still arranging for Indian lawyers to assist me, covering their fees under the Legal Fees Assistance Program. I can expect contact information for the lawyer later today.

The Foundation clarified that they have not disclosed, nor do they intend to disclose, any co-defendant's personal information to ANI directly. This follows the Delhi High Court's August order to disclose data about Wikipedia users.

As mentioned in their email on November 1, 2024, the Foundation may need to provide limited user account data confidentially to the Court."

"I believe the Wikimedia Foundation's email indicates their intention to disclose editor details to the court in a sealed cover, potentially on November 8th. I consulted a lawyer friend practicing in a nearby session court, and they advised that given the current political climate, this development could be detrimental to me.

According to my friend, I risk:

1. Device seizure (used for editing)
2. Traveling to Delhi High Court, which is expensive or time-consuming
3. Facing online and offline backlash

My friend's assessment heightens my concerns." "I would appreciate it if you could share these new developments and my concerns related to this lawsuit with other editors."

Valereee (talk) 20:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding #2, advocate can appear on your behalf. You won't need to be physically present for every hearing.

Regarding #3, from wmf's comments above, I don't think they will agree to disclose your info. It looks like the most they are willing to do is give it to the judge in a sealed cover, so it won't be in the public domain. — hako9 (talk) 05:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hako, let's please be careful about giving assurances to this editor that we can't possibly guarantee. Once the court has the information in question, it can, and in all likelihood at some point will, give to plaintiff. We also have absolutely no certainty that they will not be named a form, and potentially liable party to the case (and again, in fact, probably will), nor can we begin to predict the scope of liability or potential size of awarded damages. So it's no really appropriate to try to soothe this party in this manner, however good the intention.

Rather than attempting to manage this volunteer's entirely reasonable anxiety, we should be discussing next steps to make make a powerful statement to the WMF about how unacceptable this course of action is. What they are about to do to this individual is, in my opinion anyway, an unconscionable violation of trust and profound breach of movement values. And all to temporarily safeguard availability of the encyclopedia in a country with a current political and legal landscape with regard to human and personal rights that will probably force the WMF and community into a corner that will require us to call the same bluff sooner rather than later, regardless of any capitulation in this particular case. We have mere days to act now to keep this threshold from being crossed, to the detriment of this project's culture and feasability forever after. It is time to wake up the rest of the community to this situation. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 08:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Snow Rise I think the time is now to create the move. Outside certain small circles I am not sure the readers of Wikipedia are aware of the situation. I am quite active on Wikipedia but if not for the random thread on /r/wikipedia I won't know about this case. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 10:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Evidently, I was correct with calling this court a kangaroo court[3] and criticizing the situation of India. This battle is not just about the problematic outlet ANI, but every Wikipedia page that does not align with the pro-government propaganda. Ratnahastin (talk) 07:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Update:

I've consulted a lawyer recommended by Wikipedia's legal team for legal advice. They assured me of confidentiality and attorney-client privilege if I engage their services. However, despite promising a prompt response, I haven't received a reply to my two follow-up emails in the past 24 hours.

With the November 8 deadline looming, I'm uncertain about the next steps. Could you please update the community on this situation?

Valereee (talk) 17:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Not that this is enormously comforting, but per [4], November 8 isn't necessarily a deadline. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict x2) It isn't necessarily one, but I notice the use of "intended" in the comment text. That means 'probably not, but maybe'. Considering the course of the trial, this 'maybe' has a good chance of happening tommorow. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 17:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Update from minutes ago:

Hi,

Hope you're doing well. I've been in touch with the lawyers suggested by the foundation. They've advised me to wait until tomorrow's hearing, which may take place within 12 hours. They've also warned that maintaining anonymity in court could be challenging if the foundation discloses personal details.

Thanks for all your help.

Best regards

Valereee (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: Apologies if this has been answered but the editors in question have been referred to in court alternately as "admins" "administrators" "editors" and "writers" without any real clarification. For clarity's sake is the editor you are in contact with an administrator? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

HEB, I'm not trying to be coy, but I really don't want to add any details that might help this person be identified/outed. Valereee (talk) 18:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, based only on my (fairly exhaustive) reading of the sources over the past six weeks: the courts, ANI, ANI's lawyers, and most of the media have zero idea what an admin is/does vs. what an editor is/does. Much of the coverage seems to make the assumption an admin is appointed by WMF to be some final arbiter of content. Valereee (talk) 18:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand that safety is paramount but I've also noticed a lack of clarity between admin, extended confirmed editors, and editors in general (and I've seen nothing which touches on the dual nature of admins, that they make both admin actions and regular old edits). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back, re: and I've seen nothing which touches on the dual nature of admins, that they make both admin actions and regular old edits: In the media coverage? I don't think we're likely to see that level of understanding by anyone who hasn't made a few thousand edits themselves. I've seen confusion over that even from editors who've made tens of thousands of edits. I'm sure you have, too, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at? Valereee (talk) 22:34, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, in the media coverage. I would hope that the Foundation's in-house lawyers are wikipedia editors themselves (and thus able to explain that sort of nuance to the court), it never really occurred to me that they wouldn't be but I guess its probably not required. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

We can barely explain it to experienced editors successfully in many cases. Valereee (talk) 23:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps my faith is misplaced but judges are in general highly intelligent people used to dealing with complex and opaque networks who should be able to get it if given enough time and information. It is early days yet, I wish all the best. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Would you have the same faith in judiciary if this lawsuit happened in China or Russia? Ratnahastin (talk) 01:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think your characterizations of India's political status in this discussion are entirely fair. The country has been undergoing democratic backsliding like many parts of the world, but relatively speaking, it's still a free democratic country. It's nowhere near the level of China or Russia, and it's not accurate to portray it like a dictatorship running a "kangaroo court". The lawsuit is a problem that needs to be solved, and casting things as great evils generally makes it harder to solve them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien: Russia and China are not working to convince their citizens that their countries were horrible before 2014.[5][6] This is happening only in India under the Modi government and for that laughable but poisonous agenda they have to use these outlets like ANI for running massive disinformation campaigns. Nearly whole Indian media is in the ruling party's favour. The court appears to be running on some government directive given that the government itself is parroting claims made by ANI[7] and the fact that only WMF is getting attacked at every hearing by the judges who inspite of having only the layman understanding of Wikipedia refuse to use this opportunity to actually understand how it really works. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Honestly I would say that WMF is unfair to decide to "disclose" by themselves without consulting the editor in question or Indian editors in general. If the Indian editors decided to trust the Indian court system that's on them, but if they didn't trust them WMF shouldn't throw them under the bus. The Indians are the one that is best positioned to judge the whether they believe the court systems of their own country or not, and WMF should have respected it. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 06:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Let's not forget the case of Satyendra Dubey[8]. The Indian state machinery does not care one bit about anonymity. Ratnahastin (talk) 06:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that, according to Reporters Without Borders, freedom of the press has deteriorated so substantially in India that it is now on more or less the same level as that in Russia. The Modi administration and its allies have routinely brought defamation cases against journalists in order to silence them and censor any criticism.[9] This case isn't an outlier, it's part of a broader problem. I don't think we do ourselves any favours by ignoring the wider material context. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Update

It's late here, but I'm still awake thinking about tomorrow.

I sent this 👇🏾 to WMF , in response to their email and I would like to share this with other editors too as I would want them to see the absurdity of this situation

I have additional questions, several issues which I don't understand.

1. The edit in question is still on ANI's wikipage. You said you don't remove edits from wiki just because courts rule they should be removed and your privacy policy makes it clear you only share PI if you reasonably believe it necessary to satisfy a valid and legally enforceable court order. How can there be a valid court order in this case, if the very basis of this case if frivoulous, namely that me reverting an edit that is well sourced and would not be removed from wiki no matter what this court rules, no matter what ANI wants, is somehow defamation.

2. You say you won't share my PI with ANI itself, but it cannot be reasonably assumed that if you share this info with the judge he and only he will ever see it, and the plaintiff, who wants this information, won't have access to it. From there, ANI can go after me, they can leak this info and I can suffer damages, maybe threats or worse, just because I reverted an edit that is evidently won't be removed from wiki due to any kind of ruling from this same judge.

3. I asked about juristiction, because I find it odd that an Indian court would dictate what an American company should or shouldn't do. My question is, what would happen if you simply informed this judge that you won't disclose editor PI for a frivolous lawsuit, and this court has no right to force you to do otherwise.

Thank you for your response, in advance.

Valereee (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Having checked the edit history, I'm really dumbfounded as to why did WMF even bothered with this frivolous lawsuit, the only one at fault was ANI trying to whitewash their page without disclosing COI/PE, not the editors who reverted their attempts. Ratnahastin (talk) 01:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Judging from the statements above from Jimbo and WMF staff, the WMF is clearly of the opinion that Wikipedia remaining not-blocked in India is more important than the rights for editors' anonymity they are theoretically reponsible for protecting. Unsurprisingly, the editors who actually create the encyclopedia strongly disagree—hence the petition, and likely further, more hostile action if the warnings are not heeded. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

With this case, the demand from the Indian government and now the threat from Republic TV, perhaps the option WMF needs to be looking at is to close down all official ties with India. A concern I have right now is the courts taking steps that will punish WMF staff in India with contempt fines / imprisonment. Two courts now have demonstrated they have a lock of understanding about how Wikipedia works from an editing model and both have made outright hostile comments about both WMF and Wikipedia's model.

So cut all ties with India. No staff members there, no representatives, no officially supported user groups. Nothing. Think Russia. And then just ignore the courts entirely. The only lever available to the Indian courts would be to demand the entire website be blocked in India, which would be quite interesting to see them actually make that happen and make it stick.

When a country shows hostility towards an open collaborative editing model, should WMF have official contacts with that country? Ravensfire (talk) 04:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think WMF have no presence in India - so no staff and no representatives to punish should DHC decided to retaliate. A redirect to a page explaining why it had happened and who are the culprits (Asian News International) should be made to explain why Wikipedia is not available anymore. Hopefully it will push some people to stand against such overreach of government power. On the other hand, WMF's first choice to "disclose" is still an issue that has to be discussed intently with the WMF. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 05:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think WMF have no presence in India This is categorically wrong. – robertsky (talk) 14:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikimedia India was closed back in 2019, what other presence do they have? Ratnahastin (talk) 15:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

First, on Wikimedia India. Wikimedia India was the community chapter in India, which is a separate entity from Wikimedia Foundation. Currently, there are other user groups within India that the foundation have recognised, you can check out meta:Wikimedia movement affiliates#thorgs. Just because there is no overarching chapter/user group at the national level (India is not the only country in this situation if you are wondering, there're China, Philippines, and USA), that does not mean there is no IRL activities within the country by various groups of editors/contributors to the Wikimedia movement.

Second, presence of the Foundation. It does not have an office strictly speaking, but there is a number of staff working in India, working on a wide range of projects and initiatives. I know some of them in the course of organising Wikimania.

A ban on Wikimedia Foundation and/or Wikipedia in India may mean that people may be put out of their livelihood, projects getting halted, community groups having to scatter, etc, in general. – robertsky (talk) 05:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Having a physical foundation was the point which Wikipedia totally lacks in India. Since Wikimedia India was shut in 2019, it becomes clearer that anything that happens in India with regards to Wikimedia is ultimately irrelevant for them.

Your message reads like Wikipedia is supposed to comply with POV, no matter how absurd, of every single country because they have workers and volunteers in just every part of the world. Anybody having them is not a big deal today. I am sure all of the editors who are writing here also have contacts outside their native countries. Ratnahastin (talk) 07:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Since Wikimedia India was shut in 2019, it becomes clearer that anything that happens in India with regards to Wikimedia is ultimately irrelevant for them. The Foundation lacks physical presence almost everywhere in the world by its very nature. If they deemed what happened in India as irrelevant, then why the continued engagements with the various user groups in India? Why continue employing staff directly in India to work in India? Why even bothered trying to fight this case? Wikimedia India had its issues which I am not totally familiar with (Is ChatGPT right? Hi @Bluerasberry, your 2014 post turned up as a reference in the AI chat! Amazing.), but Wikimedia India is not the only organisation they can work with to better the editing/contributing environment in the country.

Your message reads like Wikipedia is supposed to comply with POV, no matter how absurd you are putting words into my mouth. I come from a country whose freedom of speech laws is no better than India's, and yet I am editing in my own name, and have seen the laws being utilised to go after anonymous speech (first with corrective orders for falsehoods in statement about a public hospital, then a defamation case.

If there is anything that I want to say, it is actions have consequences, and I am laying down what's the worst case that might have happened in the event of an outright ban without Wikimedia Foundation seeing a day in the court, not only to Wikipedia, but to your fellow editors and contributors whose identities are of no secret in the country. By all means, edit anonymously, and what I am seeing is the foundation is trying to fight for that right/status quo, even as the court and ANI is trying to compel them to release the information they are requesting for. Whether they ultimately release the information is another matter, but if we go down (ie Wikipedia getting blocked), we go down with a fight. In the earlier timeline, we would have seen Wikipedia getting blocked weeks ago, and not much time at all for the exposed editors/contributors to evaluate and secure their own safety if needed. Personally, I think what would be a win is that the case continues without the need to release the requested information and ultimately setting new precedence for freedom of speech to proliferate better.

I am sure all of the editors who are writing here also have contacts outside their native countries. Not sure what to make of this. This is beside the point I am making? – robertsky (talk) 12:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Update:

I apologize for the scrutiny you're facing due to sharing my emails with the community. To clarify, the lawyer didn't claim in court that WMF would cover one editor's legal fees. Instead, they stated Wikipedia's legal team informed editors about the case on Village Pump and offered aid. Furthermore, I haven't publicly questioned the court's neutrality, nor did I sign the open letter to the foundation.

Personal note: I've let them know the scrutiny (which I'd barely even characterize as that) isn't causing me any stress whatsoever. Valereee (talk) 16:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)