Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Fictional elements
Points of interest related to Fiction on Wikipedia: Category – Deletions |
This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Fictional elements. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.
- Adding a new AfD discussion
- Adding an AfD to this page does not add it to the main page at WP:AFD. Similarly, removing an AfD from this page does not remove it from the main page at WP:AFD. If you want to nominate an article for deletion, go through the process on that page before adding it to this page. To add a discussion to this page, follow these steps:
- Edit this page and add {{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PageName}} to the top of the list. Replace "PageName" with the relevant article name, i.e. the one on the existing AFD discussion. Also, indicate the title of the article in the edit summary as it is particularly helpful to add a link to the article in the edit summary. When you save the page, the discussion will automatically appear.
- You should also tag the AfD by adding {{subst:delsort|Fictional elements|~~~~}} to it, which will inform editors that it has been listed here. You may place this tag above or below the nomination statement or at the end of the discussion thread.
- There are a few scripts and tools that can make this easier.
- Removing a closed AfD discussion
- Closed AfD discussions are automatically removed by a bot.
- Other types of discussions
- You can also add and remove other discussions (prod, CfD, TfD etc.) related to Fictional elements. For the other XfD's, the process is the same as AfD (except {{Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName}} is used for MFD and {{transclude xfd}} for the rest). For PRODs, adding a link with {{prodded}} will suffice.
- Further information
- For further information see Wikipedia's deletion policy and WP:AfD for general information about Articles for Deletion, including a list of article deletions sorted by day of nomination.
watch |
The guideline Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) and essay Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) may be relevant here.
- Related deletion sorting
- Television
- Film
- Anime and manga
- Comics and animation
- Literature
- Video games
- Science fiction and fantasy
Fictional elements
edit- Survivalism in fiction (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Survival fiction is a notable topic, but it is just a redirect here. What we have here is a very poorly referenced indiscriminate laundry list of works that violates MOS:TRIVA, WP:IPC and WP:LISTN. WP:ATD-R suggests that for now, we could just redirect this to Survivalism#In_popular_culture and wait for someone to create this one day. PS. Given we live in the age of AI-aided listicle churnalism, I expect we could find sources to save this - but given abysmal referencing, WP:TNT is another salad letter consideration to keep in mind. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:30, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Popular culture, and Lists. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:30, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Kunimitsu and Kunimitsu II (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I'll be frank: I recognize a lot of work went into this and it feels like a significant passion project. But that said I also recognize there's a lot wrong with this article: several sources feel like they were synthesized to say far more than they did, and a vast majority say really next to nothing.
There's not a lot of indication to give any real-world importance of the character; you get some gameplay commentary but that exists in a bubble related to their relative games and much of it is strictly from reviews. What isn't from reviews is bare bones reaction and a lot of repetition. It just resoundingly fails notability and SIGCOV. Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Weak merge: Though I myself created an article for Kunimitsu a couple years back, I don't see this article holding up very well, given the current standards held for character articles (which I have mixed feelings on, to say the least). There might be a couple good sources in there to help notability, but it's not enough. There is some impressive work in there, but some of the sources are also either questionable or outright unreliable. Fighter's Generation, for instance, is a fan site, thus its unreliable. Also, Event Hubs, which the article heavily cites, is deemed unreliable at WP:VG/S. Some of this content can go in Characters of the Tekken series. MoonJet (talk) 22:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Merge Seems like a WP:REFBOMB that lacks significant coverage. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:17, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- List of Industry characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
A contested redirect, an unreferenced list, and technically too old to draftify. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 14:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television, United Kingdom, and United States of America. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 14:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Lists. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 18:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep and trim if needed. 1) The topic is Industry (TV series) so notability is established. 2) as a SIZE OR WP:SS split of a notable topic, primary sources are just fine for meeting V and NPOV policies. 3) LISTN is satisfied by WP:CSC point 2, every entry is non-notable. Jclemens (talk) 22:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as a reasonable split from Industry (TV series). Sourcing is terrible (this is pretty common across Category:Lists of television characters in my experience), but that doesn't mean the topic isn't notable or shouldn't be covered in a standalone article. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Quadling Country (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This article was brought to my attention after it was brought up in the Wikipedia Discord server, and I did some digging on my own, and this location doesn't seem to be independently notable of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. The current article's sources are entirely plot summaries and what appears to be a self-published blog post, and a BEFORE in News, Books, and Scholar turned up nothing except TRIVIALMENTIONS, plot summary, and the text of the original work it was featured in. This article doesn't satisfy GNG given a distinct lack of SIGCOV, and should likely be redirected to Land of Oz, where the subject is mentioned several times and of which Quadling Country is apart of in-universe, as an AtD. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Literature. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. A search only shows WP:TRIVIALMENTIONs and plot recaps, without WP:SIGCOV that can provide meaningful reception and analysis. A redirect to Land of Oz could be an WP:ATD. Shooterwalker (talk) 03:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Land of Oz. There is detail and there is insane level of detail and this is the latter. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Land of Oz - While there are plenty of mentions of it as part of broader discussions of Oz as a whole, I am not really seeing enough significant coverage on Quadling specifically that would really justify having a separate article. As it is discussed throughout the main article on the Land of Oz, redirecting there is a preferable WP:ATD. Rorshacma (talk) 07:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect. I went through the sources and added one. For the sake of explanation, I'm going to exclude the primary source since that can't give notability. That leaves us with three sources:
- The Dictionary of Imaginary Places: Written by a very notable academic (Alberto Manguel) and put out by a reliable publisher, the source looks great on the surface. The issue with it is that as others have stated, it is just an overview of Oz history with no critical insight into any of it. I'd see this as generally usable for notability-purposes, but it's not the strongest possible source when it comes to establishing how a specific country within Oz is notable.
- Fairy Tales Reimagined. This was one I added. It's a McFarland book, so definitely usable as a source without question. The book does give some critical overview into the world from what I can see, although it's somewhat mentioned more in relation to the character of Elphaba in Gregory Maguire's Wicked.
- Nathan DeHoff blog: This is a SPS, so the issue here is twofold: is this person someone who would be considered a RS enough to overturn the general consensus that SPS are unusable and if so, does the source help establish notability. To answer the first part, I think that DeHoff could generally be considered a RS on the topic of Oz. He's written a few pieces for The Baum Bugle and he was also used as a resource this McFarland book. He's also been published by a couple of the more major, notable Oz organizations. That last part is a bit murky as far as establishing him as a RS goes, but does point towards him being generally considered an authority since those groups are kind of selective. However even if we were to all agree that DeHoff and his blog is usable, the bigger issue is with the second part of the problem. Coverage of the country is pretty light and when some commentary is given, it's not really about the country itself. At best this would make it a general overview of the history/plot of Oz.
- I couldn't find any other sources. This leaves us with two sources that summarize the country in relation to Oz history but no critical commentary that would show why this country is independently notable. The other source has commentary, but not enough to do the heavy lifting to make up for the shortcomings of the other two sources. To add to all of this, the country is already generally well covered in the main parent article, to the point where I don't think we really need a spinoff article. I suppose the McFarland source could be used in the Maguire section of the article, but that would be about it. I think a basic redirect would suffice here. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 16:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Neutral Here is an entry in The Wizard of Oz Encyclopedia: The Ultimate Guide to the Characters, Lands, Politics, and History of Oz; although the book seems more like a classroom resource for school teachers. There is some brief analysis/commentary in [1], [2], [3], and a rather odd thesis on cooking in Oz which discusses food and recipes in Quadling Country. I think there is maybe enough WP:SIGCOV to have an article, but ultimately it might just be better to cover this in Land of Oz.4meter4 (talk) 19:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect the sources above probably pass GNG, but this has such a high degree of overlap with the other page, is almost entirely in-universe content, and there isn't such an overwhelming amount of material to make it a clear pass, so per WP:PAGEDECIDE it is better to just cover it there PARAKANYAA (talk) 07:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep if more sources can be found or merge with it's section at Land of Oz in the spirit of WP:PRESERVE. --Rtkat3 (talk) 02:54, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Land of Oz#Quadling Country, seems to be plotcruft of the highest degree. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Shanhe University (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I do not believe that this article meets the notability criteria. While some news sources have reported on it, it does not appear to be a long-lasting phenomena that would be of relevance to anyone on English Wikipedia. Most sources discussing it seem to merely use it as a vehicle to discuss educational inequality in China, and it doesn't seem to have captured public attention for any notable period of time. --IntergalacticOboist (talk) 22:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete as WP:NEOLOGISM / WP:NOT. It's possible there is a burst of news coverage around this topic, but it should be redirected to an article about internet jokes, at most. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per Shooterwalker. Seems to be a short-lived meme that doesn't really garner enough coverage for even a proper Stub. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - a made up in one day meme. Bearian (talk) 04:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Per Bearian. - Ratnahastin (talk) 00:39, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Emily Prentiss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Prentiss is a non-lead character in a TV show, and fails WP:NFICTION, also cross-checking with WP:NBOOK and WP:NFILMCHAR. The most notable aspect of this character (outside of the show narrative itself) is that the actress who portrays the character left the show twice and returned twice. TiggerJay (talk) 22:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. TiggerJay (talk) 22:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- I just realized that this is the 2nd nom, and the prior result was a merge, and it appears that @User:DocZach brought this article back to life from draft space of their own accord without resolving the concerns originally brought up at the prior AfD. TiggerJay (talk) 22:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, we encourage people to do precisely that, especially when they're rewritten the article in question. Jclemens (talk) 00:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I have addressed such concerns below. DocZach (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- However, the basis of my nom had nothing to do with the prior AfD, and thus the "rewrite" is an irrelevant factor, because the principle concerned that came to my attention about this article exists in the current version. It just so happens that the question of this fictional character has come up previously, and the concerns last year happen to be the same concerns that I currently have with the current version. Rather the concern should be if an article survived a AfD/Prod/CSD and then it was hastily brought up again for the same reason. However in this case, it did not survive the first action, and there is clear contention on this relisting. TiggerJay (talk) 03:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- You are aware of the effort the restorer spent in improving the article, which means you know, or should know of, the timing involved. To neither mention the currency of the rewrite nor the rewrite itself in your follow up is still unreasonably inconsiderate. Not properly acknowledging such things evokes memories of bad old days' BATTLEGROUND behavior; let's not go there. Jclemens (talk) 17:14, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for recognizing that. I spent a lot of time researching about this character and writing this article. I have just spent the last few hours revising the article to add more sources and information, and please let me know if you think it looks better now. DocZach (talk) 23:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I would agree that many edits (over 17k bytes) DocZach has made which has increased the overall article size, and breadth of coverage. Even an additional 6k since this AfD was raised. Adding plenty of source material to flesh out the various sections that were added. However, size/length has never been the qualifier for inclusion -- hence why many STUBs are acceptable. Rather the question is that beyond simply being that Prentiss appears to be a well written character (ie has a specific personality, with a background, and an evolving role), couldn't be said about anyother main character of a popular TV show? For example, when you look at the main cast of the even longer running NCIS (TV series) with ~130 more episodes, of their NCIS (TV series) § Cast and characters you can see that characters with similar lengths of appearances are simply redirects to a "List Of..." page. Certainly you could fill a page with "verifiable facts" about each character, but that isn't the criteria for having a dedicated article -- that is what fandom and IMDB are for. The majority of things which seem to have received WP:SECONDARY coverage have been far more about Brewster (thus Prentiss tangentially) - for example, the impact of choosing the go grey instead of dying her hair or that she left the show so she could "return to her comedic and sitcom roots". That is real life choices of the actress impacting the character that needed to be accommodated. What might make the noteworthiness is the other way around; if the show creators wanted to make a big statement to the industry by specifically directing the actress to go gray, that then had a domino effect on the industry. Otherwise it's just a random factoid. TiggerJay (talk) 18:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- With this newer rendition of the article being up for only a few days, I have made significant contributions and devoted a lot of effort to research and writing in relation to this article. After reviewing the relative policies, it is clear that Emily Prentiss, the character HERSELF, meets both WP:GNG and WP:NFICTION, and deleting the article or restoring it to a simple redirect is a very ignorant and foolish idea, especially when this article is being continuously improved day-by-day.
- Emily Prentiss is a key figure in Criminal Minds, especially Season 12 and onward, when she becomes Unit Chief and later Section Chief, cementing her as one of the most important characters in the show’s 17-season run. She has been in all but three of the seasons, and has been brought back two times by fan demand. Her storylines—like her faked death to evade Ian Doyle and her leadership during high-stakes cases—are not just central to the series but have also been widely discussed in reliable secondary sources. Outlets like ScreenRant, Collider, and TVLine have provided in-depth analysis of her character, her role in the show, and her significance in cultural discussions. Many of these sources explore how Prentiss’s narrative and Paget Brewster’s portrayal have resonated with audiences and contributed to broader conversations, such as those about representation and aging in Hollywood.
- The article has expanded significantly in recent weeks (as the proposer for deletion acknowledges), with thousands of bytes of new content added to deepen its coverage of her backstory, personality, storylines, and reception. This growth reflects my effort to continue developing this article to surpass the minimum requirements set by Wikipedia for an article like this. Removing it now would dismiss that progress and deny room for future improvements. Articles are not expected to be perfect from the outset, but this one has already demonstrated substantial progress, and its continued development would benefit readers and contributors alike.
- The individuals suggesting we restore this article to a redirect have suggested that Prentiss’s article isn’t warranted because some characters from other shows, like NCIS, are treated as redirects. Firstly, I find this hypocritical because those same individuals are the ones complaining about me using the David Rossi article and the failure of deleting his article as one of the justifications for keeping Emily's article. As explained in the WP:OTHERSTUFF policy that those same individuals cited, Wikipedia evaluates articles individually, based on the notability of the subject and the availability of independent secondary coverage. However, the survival of the deletion on David Rossi's article is allowed to be used as an argument per an exception in that policy regarding outcomes of deletion proposals on related articles. And, if we are going to do comparisons to characters of other shows, I'd like to point to Grey’s Anatomy, where over a dozen characters—including multiple minor characters who are less central to the show and less notable than Prentiss—have their own articles. If those characters meet notability requirements, there is no valid reason why Emily Prentiss, a lead character who drives major storylines, should not. If they do not meet the notability requirements, then I struggle to understand the proposer's specific decision to delete this article rather than focus on other character articles that are obviously less notable, less covered, and less detailed. However, as I said before, the existence of other articles is not an argument for the existence of this article. I am just writing this paragraph to emphasize the hypocrisy and inconsistencies in the opposition's argumentation.
- The real-world impact of Prentiss’s character further underscores her notability. Fan demand played a key role in Paget Brewster’s return to the series after her departure, highlighting the character’s importance to viewers. Additionally, Brewster’s decision to embrace her natural gray hair, which was written into the character, sparked cultural conversations about aging and beauty standards. These discussions were covered by major outlets like TODAY and E! Online, showing that Prentiss’s relevance extends far beyond the show.
- Deleting this article would go against Wikipedia’s principles of being an open and comprehensive encyclopedia. Emily Prentiss is clearly notable under both WP:GNG and WP:NFICTION, and the article’s ongoing development should not be hindered by what appears to be an ignorant and abrupt attempt to discard it. Removing it now would erase a valuable resource and dismiss the ongoing effort to improve articles relating to Criminal Minds. DocZach (talk) 04:06, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I would agree that many edits (over 17k bytes) DocZach has made which has increased the overall article size, and breadth of coverage. Even an additional 6k since this AfD was raised. Adding plenty of source material to flesh out the various sections that were added. However, size/length has never been the qualifier for inclusion -- hence why many STUBs are acceptable. Rather the question is that beyond simply being that Prentiss appears to be a well written character (ie has a specific personality, with a background, and an evolving role), couldn't be said about anyother main character of a popular TV show? For example, when you look at the main cast of the even longer running NCIS (TV series) with ~130 more episodes, of their NCIS (TV series) § Cast and characters you can see that characters with similar lengths of appearances are simply redirects to a "List Of..." page. Certainly you could fill a page with "verifiable facts" about each character, but that isn't the criteria for having a dedicated article -- that is what fandom and IMDB are for. The majority of things which seem to have received WP:SECONDARY coverage have been far more about Brewster (thus Prentiss tangentially) - for example, the impact of choosing the go grey instead of dying her hair or that she left the show so she could "return to her comedic and sitcom roots". That is real life choices of the actress impacting the character that needed to be accommodated. What might make the noteworthiness is the other way around; if the show creators wanted to make a big statement to the industry by specifically directing the actress to go gray, that then had a domino effect on the industry. Otherwise it's just a random factoid. TiggerJay (talk) 18:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for recognizing that. I spent a lot of time researching about this character and writing this article. I have just spent the last few hours revising the article to add more sources and information, and please let me know if you think it looks better now. DocZach (talk) 23:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- You are aware of the effort the restorer spent in improving the article, which means you know, or should know of, the timing involved. To neither mention the currency of the rewrite nor the rewrite itself in your follow up is still unreasonably inconsiderate. Not properly acknowledging such things evokes memories of bad old days' BATTLEGROUND behavior; let's not go there. Jclemens (talk) 17:14, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, we encourage people to do precisely that, especially when they're rewritten the article in question. Jclemens (talk) 00:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep GNG is met, and even without the VALNET sources, which are just fine in this case. This is a particularly inconsiderate nomination in that the character article has been materially expanded and sources added within the last day or two. Of all the things that need cleaning up in Wikipedia, the notability of contemporary TV show characters is probably one of the least problematic areas. Jclemens (talk) 00:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Restore Redirect - The article is still nothing but detailed plot summary, without any kind of reception or analysis, and the added sources that are not primary or just episode summaries are not really significant coverage on the character. Many, in fact, are just news bits about the actress that portrayed her joining/leaving/returning to the show, rather than any kind of discussion on the actual fictional character that this article is about. Searches really are not bringing much up that is about the character, rather than the actress, that goes beyond summarizing plots. I have no problem if the current article was returned to draft space to be further developed, but its current state was not ready to be moved back to the main space. Rorshacma (talk) 00:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- If an article can be improved, then you should propose ways to improve it instead of deleting it because of a reason that doesn't even match the original proposer's logic behind deleting this article. He is arguing about a lack of notability, and you are arguing about the way this article is written. Yes, this article can be improved. No, deleting or redirecting an article is not the solution to issues that can easily be fixed in an article. DocZach (talk) 03:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 00:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Keep: The premise for this deletion nomination is false. Emily Prentiss is a prominent lead character in the show, and her character has gotten even more notability over the past year due to recent events she has experienced. She is the Section Chief (lead) of the BAU, and if David Rossi is going to have his own article (who is notably less present in the series than Emily Prentiss), then Emily most certainly meets the criteria to have her own as well. I will attach just a few examples of her being mentioned by reliable sources.
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14]
- DocZach (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - WP:OTHERSTUFF is never a good argument - there could very well be reason for David Rossi to also not have an independent article, but that is not what is under discussion here. The sources listed here, like the ones in the article, are either short announcements about the actress leaving/returning to the show, which are not significant coverage of the fictional character at all, or plot summaries that are largely from content farms. How important a character is within the show has no bearing on passing the WP:GNG or whether or not a independent article is appropriate or not. Rorshacma (talk) 01:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Please read the part of the policy that explicitly states, in relation to references to past failed deletions with similar reasoning, "this can be a strong argument that should NOT be discounted because of a MISCONCEPTION that this section is a blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates." DocZach (talk) 03:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - WP:OTHERSTUFF is never a good argument - there could very well be reason for David Rossi to also not have an independent article, but that is not what is under discussion here. The sources listed here, like the ones in the article, are either short announcements about the actress leaving/returning to the show, which are not significant coverage of the fictional character at all, or plot summaries that are largely from content farms. How important a character is within the show has no bearing on passing the WP:GNG or whether or not a independent article is appropriate or not. Rorshacma (talk) 01:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- ARGUMENT FOR WHY THE ARTICLE SHOULD REMAIN
- The Emily Prentiss article satisfies WP:GNG, WP:NFIC, and WP:NFILMCHAR for fictional characters. This article and recent improvements to it address prior concerns from last year's AfD, and it demonstrates the character's significance both inside and outside of the show, Criminal Minds.
- ----
- A) Significant Coverage in Reliable, Independent Sources
- The article includes multiple secondary sources that provide coverage of Emily Prentiss beyond plot summaries. Examples include:
- Looper and Collider: Discuss her leadership roles, character development, and importance to the show’s dynamics.
- ScreenRant and The List: Analyze pivotal moments in her story, such as faking her death and her return to the team.
- E! Online and TODAY.com: Highlight how her character is discussed in broader cultural contexts, such as Paget Brewster’s decision to embrace her gray hair, which has been woven into the show.
- CNN and Yahoo: Covers on her leaving and returning on the show multiple times.
- These sources go beyond simple mentions and delve into how Prentiss has been portrayed, her role in the show, and her impact on the series and viewers. I have already attached the references to both the article and this page.
- ----
- B) Prominence as a Lead Character
- Leadership Roles: Prentiss becomes Unit Chief in Season 12 and later Section Chief, making her one of the show’s most significant characters. She has been in the series since Season 2, and has been a main character throughout most of it.
- Impact on the Series: Prentiss's arc includes some of the show’s most dramatic and memorable moments (e.g., her undercover mission, faking her death, and leading the BAU). These storylines, especially her faked death, have all been covered by reliable sources numerous times.
- ----
- C) Reception and Real-World Discussion
- Fan Demand: Her return to the show was largely driven by public outcry, which indicates her importance to the audience.
- Brewster Herself: Discussions about representation in media, particularly Brewster’s portrayal and refusal to adhere to Hollywood norms, tie directly to her character’s ongoing relevance.
- This kind of real-world analysis satisfies WP:NFIC and distinguishes Emily Prentiss from lesser-known characters who belong in a list or merged article.
- ----
- D) RESPONDING TO ORIGINAL DELETION ARGUMENTS
- Claim 1: “Most sources are primary”
- This is no longer accurate. The article now cites numerous independent, secondary sources, including:
- Analytical articles (Looper, Collider, ScreenRant).
- Coverage from established entertainment outlets (E! Online, TODAY.com, CNN, Yahoo).
- Reviews and discussions of key storylines involving Prentiss.
- These sources show significant coverage of Emily Prentiss specifically, not just the show or Paget Brewster.
- ----
- Claim 2: “A Google search doesn’t prove individual notability”
- Recent searches reveal ample sources discussing Emily Prentiss’s character arc, leadership role, and real-world impact. The expanded article now demonstrates this with concrete examples and citations, countering this claim.
- ----
- Claim 3: “Not worth a standalone article”
- Emily Prentiss is one of the most prominent characters in Criminal Minds. Articles for similar characters, such as David Rossi (which is the other character of the series that has an article), have been maintained despite less coverage and screen presence. Prentiss’s depth, narrative significance, and real-world attention make her more than worthy of her own article.
- ----
- Claim 4: “Should redirect to a list of characters”
- Merging Emily Prentiss into a list would strip away the depth of analysis she receives in her standalone article. Her character arc and real-world significance cannot be adequately covered in a brief summary. The current article structure allows for a more nuanced exploration of her impact.
- ----
- The article meets GNG by demonstrating significant independent coverage.
- It incorporates real-world analysis, development, and reception, addressing prior critiques of being overly plot-focused.
- The character is central to Criminal Minds and its revival, with a clear legacy and cultural relevance.
- The rewritten article addresses all prior concerns and stands as a notable, well-sourced piece.
- Deleting or merging this article would undermine the depth of coverage for one of the most significant characters in Criminal Minds. The current article satisfies all criteria for notability and has been improved significantly since the original deletion request. I am also continuing to improve it regularly, and would definitely appreciate help from others to do so. Deleting the article without any suggestion or discussion of improvement seems unproductive and antithetical to Wikipedia's policies and purpose.
- ----
- DocZach (talk) 02:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- (e/c) Stating that a "premise is false" is meaningless without actual support, instead of simply claiming but it's true! However I welcome you to substantiate your claim that the
"character has gotten even more notability over the past year."
What independent, reliable sources to you have to support that claim that the character's notability has significantly changed in the past year? Simply reposting all of the references from the article is not helpful, as many of them establish Brewster (actress) as notable as her life events and acting career have evolved around this show and character, but Brewster's notability does not automatically transfer to the character she plays. Of the 14 source you provided, many of them were from 2016 and prior. Of the 4 that were published in 2024, two of them were from Screen Rant ("marginally reliable") and 1 from IMDB ("unreliable") and the Yahoo news one focused on the actress, not the character. (For clarification the reliability is based on WP:RSP.) TiggerJay (talk) 02:49, 25 November 2024 (UTC)- Per WP:RSPSS, ScreenRant is "considered reliable for entertainment-related topics." The "marginally reliable" attribute applies broadly because it is not recommended to use ScreenRant for "controversial statements related to living persons." DocZach (talk) 02:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Can you explain how NBOOK applies to this article? Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 02:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- The individual who proposed this article for deletion was the one who brought up the policy "NBOOK." DocZach (talk) 02:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- But yeah, NBOOK has no relevance, so I removed that from my statement. DocZach (talk) 02:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- In the original nom, NBOOK specifically listed as part of a broader "cross-check" for fictional characters, since there is no direct guidelines for fictional TV characters -- instead we have simply fiction, books and films... But to show comprehensive checking for anything else policy related that might apply for a fictional character, those places were also checked since people also desire to create articles about fictional characters from other works, and those guidelines can be helpful when a direct guideline does not exist. Instead we're basically left with WP:N and WP:NFICTION. TiggerJay (talk) 03:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- The individual who proposed this article for deletion was the one who brought up the policy "NBOOK." DocZach (talk) 02:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- (e/c) Stating that a "premise is false" is meaningless without actual support, instead of simply claiming but it's true! However I welcome you to substantiate your claim that the
- Let me break down for you step by step the issues with these arguments:
- To begin, Looper is unreliable. Screen Rant falls under Wikipedia:VALNET. CNN and Yahoo are just casting announcements, which are not relevant to the fictional character's notability (They would be important when covering the actress). Both CNN sources are just announcements of her casting return. The gray hair source discusses Prentiss's actress and her acceptance of her hair, rather than the character. If the character's hair was discussed, it'd be different, but this is specifically Paget's hair being discussed here. I can't access the Yahoo source, so a new link would be appreciated.
- In-universe importance is not relevant to a subject's ability to get an article. This is included in nearly every fictional character guideline in the book. If these things are important, they need reliable sourcing showing that impact to back it up (None of which is illustrated in the sources provided)
- Brewster's coverage is Brewster's coverage. Unless there is significant overlap between Prentiss and Brewster, such as an analysis article discussing how Brewster's performance greatly affected how Prentiss's character was formed, for instance, then maybe that could be viable, but all the sources provided are very clearly either about Prentiss or about Brewster, with only mentions about the other. Fan demand is relevant, but needs Wikipedia:SIGCOV to back it up. Additionally, that trivia is summarizable in a sentence or so, easily mergeable back to the character's list.
- Most of your claims here I've already responded to (A Google Search one is a weird argument and I don't think it should've applied either way) but on the character list point, the current article has entirely plot information in it. This is summarizable at a list without much being lost, and many of the sources acknowledged at this AfD don't have enough coverage to build up substantial substance in the present one, since many of them are not about Prentiss and instead about Brewster, or fall under the scope of trivial coverage. I can go into a far deeper source analysis if you want clarification, of course.
- Overall, there's a distinct lack of SIGCOV that hails from reliable sources, and the coverage doesn't really seem to exist that justifies the separation here. On the topic of Rossi, his AfD seemed to have a very inaccurate close; there was one Keep vote, and yet the AfD was closed as Keep despite two strong Merge arguments. Rossi should probably be rediscussed at a later date, since I don't believe he was discussed in-depth enough during his first AfD. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 14:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I have revised much of the article to address much of your guys' concerns. Again, I find the proposal to delete this entire article very inconsiderate when it can very easily be improved rather than deleted. DocZach (talk) 23:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate the effort to improve the article, but the issue with the sources, as described throughout the AFD, is still there. Most of the sources are trivial coverage, and nearly the entirety of the sources being used in the new Reception section are about Paget Brewster, the actress, with very minimal discussion about the character. Announcements about Brewster leaving/returning to the cast or articles about Brewster not dying her hair, where the only actual coverage on the fictional character is a sentence or two saying nothing more than it being the character Brewster portrays is just not significant coverage or analysis of the fictional character of Emily Prentiss. One of the articles on her hair does not, as far I can see, even mention the character of Emily Prentiss, so trying to tie sources like that into analysis of the character is starting to drift in to WP:SYNTH territory. Rorshacma (talk) 00:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- So your solution is to delete an article that you think has some issues instead of helping improve it first? DocZach (talk) 00:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate the effort to improve the article, but the issue with the sources, as described throughout the AFD, is still there. Most of the sources are trivial coverage, and nearly the entirety of the sources being used in the new Reception section are about Paget Brewster, the actress, with very minimal discussion about the character. Announcements about Brewster leaving/returning to the cast or articles about Brewster not dying her hair, where the only actual coverage on the fictional character is a sentence or two saying nothing more than it being the character Brewster portrays is just not significant coverage or analysis of the fictional character of Emily Prentiss. One of the articles on her hair does not, as far I can see, even mention the character of Emily Prentiss, so trying to tie sources like that into analysis of the character is starting to drift in to WP:SYNTH territory. Rorshacma (talk) 00:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- I have revised much of the article to address much of your guys' concerns. Again, I find the proposal to delete this entire article very inconsiderate when it can very easily be improved rather than deleted. DocZach (talk) 23:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Restore Redirect. Rorshacma has summed up my thoughts quite nicely above, both in terms of source analysis and on this article's current status. This article is quite literally exactly the same as it was last time, and Jclemens's above showing of page history just shows minor text alterations and nothing more. Nothing has changed that would change the outcome of the last AfD, and the BEFOREs of several editors above have turned up nothing. This has no reason to be a separate article and is better off redirected like it was before. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Then why does David Rossi have his own article when he is a less notable character than Emily Prentiss? DocZach (talk) 02:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Good question, perhaps Rossi should also be up for an AfD... But just because Rossi exists does not mean that Prentiss should exist -- see WP:OTHERSTUFF. TiggerJay (talk) 02:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- The policy you are citing explicitly states:
- "Sometimes arguments are made that other articles have been put forward for AfD and survived/deleted (the most famous example being the Pokémon test); these may be effective arguments, but even here caution should be used. Yet a small number of debates do receive wide participation and result in a decision that is effectively final, until new evidence comes along. If you reference such a past debate, and it is clearly a very similar case to the current debate, this can be a strong argument that should not be discounted because of a misconception that this section is a blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates."
- The David Rossi article has already received a deletion proposal over a year ago as well for the same reason. The article survived.
- See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Rossi DocZach (talk) 03:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- To quote Rorshacma, "WP:OTHERSTUFF is never a good argument - there could very well be reason for David Rossi to also not have an independent article, but that is not what is under discussion here." Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 02:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Please read the part of the policy that explicitly states, "this can be a strong argument that should NOT be discounted because of a MISCONCEPTION that this section is a blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates." DocZach (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- You're missing a key part of that sentence: "If you reference such a past debate". While you have eventually mentioned the prior AfD for Rossi, that was not included in your initial statements regarding the character. You can use the Rossi article to discuss specific points, but the fact that the Rossi article exists is not a good argument. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 15:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am not solely referencing the fact that the Rossi article exists. I am referencing the fact that there was a deletion attempt on the Rossi article for the SAME reason, and that deletion attempt failed. Under the policy you referenced, that's an appropriate argument. DocZach (talk) 15:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Rossi honestly should undergo revaluation. His discussion was closed as Keep with only one detailed Keep and two detailed Merge votes, which doesn't seem to be a proper consensus, especially given the low discussion turnout of that AfD. Besides, similar characters being kept is nowhere precedent. Even though I slightly disagree with the outcome, Vislor Turlough was kept at AfD as a Doctor Who companion, yet other Doctor Who companions (Such as Katarina, Kamelion, and Dan Lewis) were merged into other articles despite similar arguments and backgrounds. Consensus for notability of a subject is very much on a case-by-case basis, and having articles of similar backgrounds does not instantly guarantee that the same argument applies to another subject. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 17:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- At the time I mentioned OTHERSTUFF, you hadn't mentioned the other deletion discussion. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 18:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- A few thoughts on the Rossi:
- While Rossi did survive an AfD, as per WP:OTHERSTUFF, "caution should be used..." because most do not receive wide participation -- and that could be said of Rossi. His AfD received little attention, with only 5 other people !vote. But moreover with an even split 3/3 keep versus merge -- the decision that there was consensus is somewhat questionable.
- Of the top four characters by number of appearances per IMDB (whereby Prentiss is 7th).[4] only half of them have an actual article, while two of them have redirects. Of those with redirects they still have over 100 more episodes each compares to Prentiss.
- And looking at the current List of Criminal Minds characters the top two listings here as well are simply redirects. Those redirects were previously articles as well that were merged and deleted per GNG in 2023.
- Interest in show and characters is falling significantly (WP:RECITISM), the page views for Criminal Minds alone has dropped off 50% and 70% for the characters of Reid, Prentiss, Jareau, Garcia and Rossi [5].
- But all of that simply speaks to the dangers of introducing WP:WAX. It is a slippery slope to introduce the existence of other things (surviving AfD) as there are also other examples of other things were deleted with arguably more significance. This is really what the essay expresses, and instead the arguments should focus on why Prentiss (what the essay expresses as individual merit), not some of the common notability fallacies. TiggerJay (talk) 03:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Once again, I find it inconsistent and hypocritical that you are arguing against comparing articles while continuing to do just that. The argument that similar characters in other shows have been merged or redirected does not negate Emily Prentiss’s notability under WP:GNG or WP:NFICTION. Notability is determined on a case-by-case basis, and Prentiss clearly meets the criteria. She has been the subject of significant independent coverage in reliable sources such as ScreenRant, Collider, CNN, and TODAY, which analyze her pivotal role as Unit Chief and Section Chief, as well as her cultural impact and importance to the show. These sources go beyond plot summaries to discuss real-world factors like fan campaigns that brought Paget Brewster back to the series and the broader conversations about aging and representation sparked by the decision to integrate Brewster’s gray hair into the character. There's even articles about her romances within the show. These are not trivial mentions; they are substantial discussions about her relevance both within and beyond the show.
- Wikipedia evaluates notability based on reliable secondary coverage, not arbitrary metrics like episode counts. Her role as a lead character in major story arcs and as the head of the BAU from Season 12 onward makes her far more central to the narrative than some characters who have been redirected. And potentially, articles for other Criminal Minds may also warrant creation, and I would not be opposed to such a decision.
- Please read over WP:NOTTEMPORARY. Firstly, I reject the argument that declining page views signal reduced relevance. Secondly, notability is not temporary, and the character remains central to the currently airing Criminal Minds: Evolution. Interest naturally fluctuates, but revivals and major developments have historically reignited attention on Prentiss and the series. DocZach (talk) 04:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am not solely referencing the fact that the Rossi article exists. I am referencing the fact that there was a deletion attempt on the Rossi article for the SAME reason, and that deletion attempt failed. Under the policy you referenced, that's an appropriate argument. DocZach (talk) 15:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- You're missing a key part of that sentence: "If you reference such a past debate". While you have eventually mentioned the prior AfD for Rossi, that was not included in your initial statements regarding the character. You can use the Rossi article to discuss specific points, but the fact that the Rossi article exists is not a good argument. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 15:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Please read the part of the policy that explicitly states, "this can be a strong argument that should NOT be discounted because of a MISCONCEPTION that this section is a blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates." DocZach (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Good question, perhaps Rossi should also be up for an AfD... But just because Rossi exists does not mean that Prentiss should exist -- see WP:OTHERSTUFF. TiggerJay (talk) 02:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- There have been many changes since the last AfD. There are many more secondary sources from established outlets (E! Online, TODAY.com, CNN, Yahoo), there has been more news coverage in relation to events on the series (faked death, gray hair, departures and returns, relationships, and changes in series structure). The article itself carries (and has the potential to carry much more) information that is valuable and useful to many readers, especially those who wish to learn about Emily Prentiss from Criminal Minds. Redirecting her character once again to the list of characters would result in an obnoxiously long description of her, and anything short of that would not do justice to the coverage, notability, and attention this character has received. DocZach (talk) 02:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- While I would agree that there have made "many changes" since the last AfD, and there have been more secondary sources added, that does not itself equate to the requirements of independently reliable sources which establishing notability. There is enough source to verify that this fictional character exists, and that most of what is presented in the article is verify that they did occur. You mention a character arc, but I don't seen any reliable sources (through independent research or those provided in the article) which go to any depth to talk about anything significant about a character arc. Instead most focus on "she use to be X and now she is Y" or trivial other mentions about why something has changed, or that she went from a reoccurring role to being a regular on the show due to "fan demand". Those are facts more about the actress and not the character who was basically beholden to the whims of real life, instead of the character imposing it on the real people. Those are great for the Brewster article. TiggerJay (talk) 02:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- You're misrepresenting the sources. Reliable, independent sources like ScreenRant, TODAY, and Collider do more than verify her existence—they analyze key aspects of her character, including her leadership as Unit Chief, her faked death arc, her multiple departures and re-appearances, her special appearances, her romances, and her role in sparking broader cultural conversations about representation and aging. Just because some of Paget Brewster’s decisions shaped some of the narrative doesn't erase the fact that the focus of these sources is also on Prentiss’s impact as a character and her resonance with audiences. These discussions are not trivial mentions—they demonstrate the significance of her character within and beyond the show, meeting both WP:GNG and WP:NFICTION. This article is 100% warranted on its own. DocZach (talk) 04:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- While I would agree that there have made "many changes" since the last AfD, and there have been more secondary sources added, that does not itself equate to the requirements of independently reliable sources which establishing notability. There is enough source to verify that this fictional character exists, and that most of what is presented in the article is verify that they did occur. You mention a character arc, but I don't seen any reliable sources (through independent research or those provided in the article) which go to any depth to talk about anything significant about a character arc. Instead most focus on "she use to be X and now she is Y" or trivial other mentions about why something has changed, or that she went from a reoccurring role to being a regular on the show due to "fan demand". Those are facts more about the actress and not the character who was basically beholden to the whims of real life, instead of the character imposing it on the real people. Those are great for the Brewster article. TiggerJay (talk) 02:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Then why does David Rossi have his own article when he is a less notable character than Emily Prentiss? DocZach (talk) 02:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, notable in fiction, plentiful sources. Not going to write a long-winded defense. It is what it is. Hyperbolick (talk) 07:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Criminal Minds characters#Current main characters. Appears to be mostly, if not entirely trivial coverage of the character. No objection to a split later if significant coverage can be found, but people here appear to be confused about the definition of WP:SIGCOV. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:22, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- So you think we should merge an entire article-length coverage with over 30 sources of a character into another article that already has a long list of characters? Did you even take the time to read any of the sources provided in this article? DocZach (talk) 21:54, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- WP:SIGCOV requires significant coverage in reliable, independent sources that address the subject in detail, not just in passing. Sources like ScreenRant, Collider, and TODAY provide in-depth analysis of Emily Prentiss’s narrative arcs, including her faked death, her return as Unit Chief due to fan demand, her romances, her appearance, and her evolution as a leader in the show. This is precisely the type of sustained, independent coverage that WP:SIGCOV defines as significant, and it establishes Prentiss’s clear notability as a standalone topic, making a merge inappropriate. DocZach (talk) 21:57, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Clear consensus to Keep this article. Liz Read! Talk! 03:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Titus Andromedon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I don't think this character passes WP:GNG. Toby2023 (talk) 04:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Passes WP:SIGCOV. There's lots of queer studies lit on this character. See the following books and journal articles with character analysis: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18] Best.4meter4 (talk) 04:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Television. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 07:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per 4meter4 - The article needs to have the sources integrated into it (and probably have the pot summary cut down), but as demonstrated above, there is more than enough discussion of the character in reliable sources to pass the WP:GNG. Rorshacma (talk) 00:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per 4meter4's sources. Toughpigs (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. 4meter4 turned up some fantastic finds, and even a glance at the sources shows some good promise. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per 4meter4. I am persuaded that sources exist. This article can be improved, and deletion is unnecessary. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 04:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Gaylord Ravenal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I have not been able to find significant sources that talk about the subject. Jinnllee90 (talk) 04:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 November 24. —cyberbot ITalk to my owner:Online 04:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Easily passes WP:SIGCOV. Much scholarship has been published on Ferber's novel and its characters, largely because of the importance of Kern and Hammerstein's musical Show Boat which is widely recognized as a landmark musical. There is significant coverage of the character in Kreuger, Miles (1977). Showboat: The Story of a Classic American Musical. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-502275-0., Block, Geoffrey (1997). Enchanted Evenings: The Broadway Musical from Show Boat to Sondheim. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-510791-8.,Decker, Todd (2013). Show Boat: Performing Race in an American Musical. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780190250539., Blacklegs, Card Sharps, and Confidence Men: Nineteenth-Century Mississippi River Gambling Stories. LSU Press. 2010. ISBN 9780807137369. among a host of other books.4meter4 (talk) 04:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per 4meter4. When you add these refs to the article, see if you can note the most important plot differences from the musical's script that affect Gaylord's character in the 3 film versions. For example, in 1951, a much shorter period of time has gone by at the end when Ravenal returns to Magnolia and his young daughter. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Literature. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 07:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete There's little point in doing a Google book search and then claiming that any results represent significant coverage. Mention of a fictional character in plot summaries of an influential or popular book is not in itself SIGCOV. We don't have an article dedicated to Magnolia, who IS the central character in the book. Ravenal is not the central character or even "the leading male character" as the article claims. He PLAYS the male lead on the showboat, but is not the lead. He comes, he goes. He's not a good person. But he is not discussed at any great length in these books beyond plot summary, he is not more notable than the central character of the book and its adaptations and there is not, actually, SIGCOV about him at all. There's no point doing a merge, the information's already in the Showboat article. Likewise a redirect - the character is more than adequately covered in the showboat article. Notable. Good grief. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Having spent over a week reading these books recently while rewriting the musical article, I can categorically say your assessment is inaccurate. There is indeed critical analysis of the character in these sources beyond plot summaries, and in particular discussion in how the character was fundamentally changed between Ferber's novel and the musical, and also altered further in successive film and radio adaptations. The coverage is substantial and not at all brief. It's obvious you haven't read the material. One of the weaknesses of the current character article is it does overstate the prominence of his role in the novel; although in the musical it is a more central role because the story was changed into a romance. The character article needs a lot of work, but it is a notable topic. FYI there is also coverage of Ravenal in books on Ferber, and cross comparisons between the men in her other novels in that literature. 4meter4 (talk) 20:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per sources provided by Ssilvers, which show SIGCOV. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 03:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- CU note nominator blocked as a checkuser confirmed sock.-- Ponyobons mots 22:33, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. We have clear consensus against deletion. Whether to keep or merge some or all of this content is better suited to a talk page discussion, since we've got multiple articles to merge the content to, and it looks like it needs to be extensively trimmed down in any case. asilvering (talk) 23:14, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- List of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Unfortunately, this is something i don't wanna do. I understand that Lucifer Morningstar (Hazbin Hotel), Vaggie, and Angel Dust (Hazbin Hotel) have all been AfD'ed before and this redirect page is really useful, but unfortunately, looking back on this, this fails WP:LIST and there is not much to say. If you wanna create a list of characters, it must discuss about the characters in groups, not standalone. I couldn't find any that discuss the characters in groups.
Again, this is something i do not wanna do, but i can't find any sources that discuss the characters in groups or anything useful, i don't know if a useful redirect target would be Hazbin Hotel#Voice cast or Helluva Boss#Voice cast or it should be deleted, whatever it is, it doesn't meet WP:LIST. Toby2023 (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television, Comics and animation, and Lists. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. I don't know these shows. Is there a reason they are together? Are they cross-over series with characters in common? The answer to that question will impact my vote. Best.4meter4 (talk) 03:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Dude, you series? They are both made by Vivienne Medrano, of course they are together. Toby2023 (talk) 04:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- From what I can gather, they share the same universe. Not sure how closely connected they are since I haven't seen it, but I'd assume it's something due to that. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 04:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, as both of these shows are covered here. The characters seem to have a lot of fluff that can likely be trimmed down and fit into the respective main articles. I feel Vaggie and Lucifer's Receptions can also likely be trimmed down extensively and slotted somewhere into their show's, especially since many of the sources are sourced to trivial mentions, content farms, or lower-end sources. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 04:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect/merge per Pokelego999. The characters don't have WP:SIGCOV. This can even be split and merged into two articles, if editors agree. I support whichever target is logical, per WP:ATD. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss. This article worked well before the shows had released many episodes, as it simply was a lot smaller back then. But after the release of the first season of Hazbin Hotel, the article saw a lot of content addition that falls into the category of fancruft and general is unhelpful to anyone looking for a general understanding of the series. However, one should be aware before merging the articles that this article currently lists every single character in both series. Merging them is likely to lead to edit wars regarding which secondary characters are important enough to have information written about them. Something may need to be decided as to which secondary characters are relevant enough to still be included in the main pages for the shows. Blubewwy (talk) 02:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep
or mergeThe three deletion discussions mentioned above should not just summarily be overturned by deletion. So at the very least the sourced reception sections with a balanced amount of plot summary should be preserved, which is kind of an akwardly large amount of information to put into the series' articles. The reception sections on Vaggie and Lucifer Morningstar alone already are beyond the length of a stub, each. If push comes to shove, Vaggie could possibly be merged to Charlie Morningstar.
- This paper contains a brief observation on the characters as a group. Longer treatments can be found in these web, articles. Daranios (talk) 11:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Additional briefer characterizations of the characters as a group can be found here and here. Not to mention the many more detailed articles by ScreenRant and Comic Book Resources. Daranios (talk) 12:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- And this and this web article are two more which talk about the characters as a group and are findable from the suggested target articles. So overall I feel that a WP:BEFORE search should be done with more effort than seems to have been the case here. Secondary sources discussing the items of a list as a group are the most common critereon for stand-alone lists, but they are not a "must". (WP:LISTN: "One accepted reason...".) Other considerations are outlined at WP:LISTCRITERIA. However I do feel that in this case, if we take the sources I have listed together we have enough discussion of the characters as a group to fullfill this requirement. And I believe the content can be better presented here in this list rather than in the main articles. Which does not mean the list as is cannot benefit from some trimming, but that's an editorial decision and therefore not relevant for the question of deletion. Daranios (talk) 16:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Additional briefer characterizations of the characters as a group can be found here and here. Not to mention the many more detailed articles by ScreenRant and Comic Book Resources. Daranios (talk) 12:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to The Nut Job. Liz Read! Talk! 22:19, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Surly Squirrel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
All the sources are movie reviews and not about the character, this article shouldn't exist in the first place. Toby2023 (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to The Nut Job per WP:ATD.4meter4 (talk) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect Couldn't find any sigcov of the character to justify its own article. Noah 💬 20:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Film, and Comics and animation. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to The Nut Job - There does not appear to be significant coverage on the character himself that would warrant a separate article - even the sources being used are just movie reviews for the Nut Job films rather than any substantial coverage on the character. Redirecting to the first movie is a viable WP:ATD. Rorshacma (talk) 06:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect as above. The three sources listed seem good to me at first blush, but they all pertain to the movie, not to the character. Would reconsider if more sources establishing notability were added. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:31, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Chicago Fire (TV series). Liz Read! Talk! 22:17, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Kelly Severide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This characters a lot of issues that are still aren't fixed, so this is suitable enough to AfD it. Toby2023 (talk) 22:20, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 November 23. —cyberbot ITalk to my owner:Online 22:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Television. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Chicago Fire (TV series) per WP:ATD. I could find no WP:SIGCOV on this character.4meter4 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete/redirect per 4meter4. Doesn't pass WP:SIGCOV. A redirect could be an WP:ATD. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- Yoshimitsu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The reception section is a mess of listicles and "anything not nailed down" types of articles. While there can be some degree of commentary gleamed for Yoshimitsu, it's brief and often repetitive. Even checking sources I've used in the past for Soulcalibur characters doesn't offer much at all. There's just no meat on this bone that I can find. Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Honestly, I'm leaning forward to being neutral in this situation. I feel like there's a chance the character might be notable since they have been involved in two fighting game franchises and have almost appeared in every main game of each franchise and gone through multiple distinct designs. Otherwise, the best source I could find about Yoshimitsu is [19]. These sources might also help [20], [21], [22], [23], and [24]. Aside from that, this character has three incarnations throughout the Tekken and Soulcalibur franchises, so if the character information is going to be merged, then the Tekken version of Yoshimitsu should be merged in Characters of the Tekken series, and the Soulcalibur version of Yoshimitsu should be merged in Characters of the Soulcalibur series. Kazama16 (talk) 07:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- The Den of Geek one is the strongest source coupled with Jasper's commentary on the Tekken character ranking list. The main problem though is that the Game Rant and CGMag refs are echoes of some of the commentary from that one on the designs and could be summed up as "his appearance changes frequently", PushSquare is basically death battle commentary in this case, and The Gamer and 3DPrint refs are both about fan works (I checked to see if the designer on the latter had some notability that could help but no dice). I feel there may not be enough actually said for SIGCOV when the sources are lined up is my concern.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect Just not notable. The WP:GNG is clearly failed here. If this page is redirected, it should be moved and the DAB made primary. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per others. Very little SIGCOV and a very clear-cut case of not much notability existing for him. I'd redirect Yoshimitsu (Soulcalibur) and Yoshimitsu (Tekken) to their respective character lists, since he's a character of two different franchises, and redirect Yoshimitsu (No distinction) to the DAB page to be the primary topic, per Zx. Both lists just redirect to his article, so content will need to be merged to them for the information to be retained. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 04:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Per Kazama16's sources. Den of Geek (both of them) and CGmagonline are the strongest sources. Those two, plus GamesRadar and Bloody Disgusting and Game Rant, which all discuss his design and unorthodox fighting style, compared to other fighting game characters, may also be of some help. The more trivial sources can definitely be trimmed down, but overall, I feel this isn't redirect-worthy. I can see this being a Voldo type of situation, where most of the notability comes from his "freakish" design and unorthodox fighting style. MoonJet (talk) 22:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Isolated, the Bloody Disgusting source would be good...but it's just saying the same thing as the CMag and previous Game Rant sources. Much like there's only so many times you can say "this character is sexy" in an article, "this character is freaky" starts to get repetitive fast.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:25, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per others. This is borderline, but merge is a good WP:ATD that will WP:PRESERVE this in case better sources come along later. Shooterwalker (talk) 03:56, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Fictional element Proposed deletions
editno articles proposed for deletion at this time
- ^ Schwindt, Oriana (2016-07-21). "Paget Brewster Returns to 'Criminal Minds' for Multiple Episodes in Season 12". Variety. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ Gonzalez, Sandra (2016-08-30). "'Criminal Minds': Paget Brewster back for good". CNN. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ "Paget Brewster Is Returning to Criminal Minds (Yes, Again)". E! Online. 2016-02-10. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ France, Lisa Respers (2016-07-22). "Paget Brewster returning to 'Criminal Minds'". CNN. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ "Criminal Minds: Evolution Season 2 Ending Explained: Does Emily Prentiss Survive?". IMDb. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ Dumaraog, Ana (2024-05-29). "Prentiss' Criminal Minds: Evolution Season 2 Story Nods Back To Her Past, Teases Showrunner". ScreenRant. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ Dumaraog, Ana (2024-07-02). "Prentiss Is Hilariously High In Criminal Minds: Evolution Season 2 Episode Clip". ScreenRant. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ "Paget Brewster Got Nostalgic About Her 'Criminal Minds' Run Ahead of 'Evolution' Season 2". Yahoo Life. 2024-06-01. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ Mondor, Brooke (2021-05-31). "The Prentiss Scene On Criminal Minds That Went Too Far". Looper. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ Spencer, Samuel (2020-02-06). "'Criminal Minds' Season 15: Will Prentiss Break Up With Mendoza?". Newsweek. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ "Criminal Minds' Paget Brewster Embraces Her Grays in New Photo". E! Online. 2022-08-09. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ "'Criminal Minds' fan recap: Paget Brewster returns as Emily Prentiss". Yahoo Entertainment. 2016-03-31. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ Mitovich, Matt Webb (2016-03-28). "Criminal Minds Boss: Prentiss' Visit Brings 'Laughs and Love' — 'The Timing Couldn't Have Been More Perfect'". TVLine. Retrieved 2024-11-25.
- ^ "Criminal Minds: Top 8 Prentiss Moments". TVGuide.com. Retrieved 2024-11-25.