Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alexis Soyer/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 11 February 2023 [1].

Alexis Soyer

edit
Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Having been party (with SchroCat) to getting the English food writers Elizabeth David and Jane Grigson to FA, I now present for scrutiny a French chef, who made his career in London. He was an adventurous fellow, and eventually died, young, having picked up at least one horrible disease when helping Florence Nightingale improve the conditions of British troops in the Crimean War. Before that, he revolutionised kitchen design, transforming smoky hell-holes into healthier working spaces. He also did his bit to alleviate the Irish potato famine. Quite a lad! I hope I have done him justice. I'm grateful to Chiswick Chap for a most helpful review at GAN, and I offer the article for consideration here. Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Unlimitedlead

edit

Hey, Tim. I'll begin this review over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many of the aforementioned missing links likewise do not appear in the article either.
  • Please briefly mention Florence Nightingale in the lead before name-dropping her. Sadly, the only reason I even know who that is is the American sitcom Austin & Ally.
  • "Emery Soyer and his wife, who are thought to have been Protestants..." Though by whom? Historians?
  • "...his association with the fallen Bourbon elite made him..." The House of Bourbon was a royal house, so maybe "elite" isn't the most appropriate word to use here.
It just occurred to me: maybe aristocracy?
That is fine, and now adopted. Tim riley talk 20:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Early years section says that "[Soyer's] career in Paris was halted by the July Revolution in 1830", but the London section goes on to say "By the time of the 1830 revolution in France, Philippe Soyer had been living and working in London for several years". I don't know if it's just me, but these sentences sound like they contradict each other. How can Soyer's career in Paris be influenced by the 1830 revolution if he had been living in London for years before 1830?
  • The paragraph beginning with "The kitchen used a variety of fuels: coal, charcoal, and gas..." could use a lot of hyperlinks.
  • Afterthought: your raising the point prompted me to look elsewhere in the article, and I have added links to three culinary terms with which some may be unfamiliar: whitebait, lark and truffle. Thank you for raising the point in general. Tim riley talk 18:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably OK and not a violation of WP:OVERLINK − so done. Perhaps other reviewers would be kind enough to give a view on this, though. 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
  • The phrase "and to give up alcohol, of which he had long been a devotee" sounds awkward. Perhaps "devotee" is not the best word to use here.
  • I struggled with this when drafting, and will happily substitute a better wording if you can suggest one. From the sources, he clearly liked a glass or two, but to what extent is not clear. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe "partaker"? This won't affect my decision to support, however. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:32, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unlimitedlead (talk) 14:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, Tim; I enjoyed this light read. I'll go ahead and support this nomination. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your review and now for your support. I enjoyed writing the article and I'm delighted you enjoyed reading it. Tim riley talk 19:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Alexis-Soyer-by-Emma-Soyer.png: how can this be dated to 1847 when the author died in 1842?
  • File:Emma-Soyer-self-portrait.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Reform-Club-kitchens.png, File:Fanny-Cerrito-1842.png
  • File:Soyer's-soup-kitchen.jpg: suggest using the tagging from File:Pacha-iln-banquet.jpg instead

SC

edit

Support by Gog the Mild

edit

Recusing to review.

  • "He left the Reform in 1850", Optional: give Reform Club in full.
  • Once it has been given in full it seems unidiomatic not to refer it just as the Reform, rather as having referred to, say, the Savoy Theatre, one would then just call it the Savoy, and ditto the Ritz Hotel and subsequently just the Ritz. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In the Crimea, Soyer was seriously ill, and never fully recovered his health." I know I am a comma minimalist, but are you sure about those two? Or at least the first.
  • "persona non grata". I do not believe that this needs italics, but if it does it needs a language template.
WP is not a RS, and certainly not a HQ one. In my personal opinion this is not a foreign phrase, and so does not need italics. The MoS is clear: if foreign it needs a lang template; if not, it doesn't need italics.
Italics removed. The OED is clearly wrong. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The duke died in July". Upper case D?
  • "London's reigning celebrity chef." Optional: reigning is not encyclopedic; perhaps "London's most celebrated chef"?
  • "the recently-founded Reform Club". Perhaps a brief explanation of what this was/did?
  • Link entrée.
  • "During the Irish potato famine". Is it known when this took place?
You will have me quoting MOS:NOFORCELINK at you.
I don't see how it could be thought to apply here, but to appease you I have added the starting date of the famine. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Books: Langley seems out of alphabetical order.
  • "passed an Act authorising". Lower-case a.
  • Are you sure? I suppose 39 years as a civil servant and then a Crown employee have coloured my usage. I'd write "an act of treachery" but "an Act of Parliament". If the MoS says otherwise I'll comply, natch. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure. Every specialist, in whatever area, things that their important phrases should have leading italics. (Let us not speak of Military Persons' views.) Even if you were correct, a bare "the Act" would still be incorrect.
OK. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to it, and thanks for the comments so far. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "pro bono publico". A language template please.
  • "Soyer decided that each regiment". Now, "regiment" can mean two things in the UK, and a third, different, thing in the US. That being so, when your sources say "regiment", do they mean 'battalion'? (And yes, a (British) battalion would have a "regimental" cook. Don't ask.)
  • "He was then asked to design new kitchens at Wellington Barracks, which were opened in July 1858." To me "new kitchens" implies replacement kitchens, while "which were opened" suggests they weren't. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMHO the quantity of quotations falls the wrong side of MOS:QUOTE. ("While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate".) Consider some judicious trimming and/or rephrasing in your own inimitable words. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are very few quotations other than from press reports, which must obviously, I think, be given verbatim. "The Daily Thing said it was frightfully good" doesn't seem to me very helpful to our readers. Which of the quotes would you rewrite, and how? Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fresh look
edit

Apologies for the delay Tim. We have fundamental differences so infrequently that I wanted to take a break and come back with as fresh a pair of eyes as I could manage.

The main article has 31 quotations, I list them here. They total 915 words. The text of the main article - excluding the table at the end but including the quotes - has 3,912 words. I do not accept that press reports need to be given in full nor that the only option is to give them verbatim; surely the art of writing a Wikipedia article is paraphrasing one's sources [sauces?]. Which and how is for a nominator, but personally I rather like numbers 8, 15 26 and 28. Purely by way of example, I do not see that numbers 2, 6, the first part of 9, the latter majority of 22 and (all of) 30 are necessary as quotes and believe that the prose would actually be improved by paraphrased into your fine style. A sprinkling of quotations for piquancy is a fine thing, lathering the delicate texture of an article in them less so.

In any event, I continue be unhappy in relation to MOS:QUOTE. If you continue to disagree, then I hope that you can see why I am of that opinion. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:32, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

320 words of quotation removed and others paraphrased. Tim riley talk 19:04, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:14, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your support and your helpful comments, above. Tim riley talk 19:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by WhatamIdoing

edit

Looking only at the lead: It's the normal length for a FAC, but it has about half as many links (as calculated against both the number of sentences in the lead and by the word count in the lead) as the average TFA. That's not inherently a bad thing, but I suggest that it might be something you'd like to look at. The primary point of a link isn't to give people a dictionary definition. It's to give them navigation opportunities. For example, someone reading this article about a chef might want to read about Cookery books, alternatives to bread (a red link, so I understand if now's not the time to add it), or kitchen design. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:32, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, and point taken. Thanks for raising it. I'll revisit the matter, though I am conscious of the MoS's guidance (WP:OVERLINK) not to link familiar everyday terms. Tim riley talk 13:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a couple of extra blue-links. Do please suggest any more that might be OK within WP:OVERLINK. Tim riley talk 17:59, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from KJP1

edit

Not seeing much to quibble over, and it's an interesting retelling of a full life. What little I identified:

Lead
  • "He took a keen interest in social welfare - I wonder if "public health" more accurately conveys what he was interested in? But perhaps it was wider than just the health aspect?
  • "but his venture failed and lost a great deal of money" - "but his venture failed and lost him a great deal of money"?
  • "In the Crimea, Soyer was seriously ill;" - "became seriously ill"?
London
  • "Cambridge House, the duke's mansion in Piccadilly" - I hesitate to debate London street terminology with a renowned boulevardier, but isn't the In and Out on, rather than in, Piccadilly?
  • Good God, no! All right in AmE but not in BrE. A quick search in the online archive of The Times brings up 452 incidences of "on Piccadilly" (and that includes such phrases as "converging on Piccadilly") and 8,329 incidences of "in Piccadilly". Tim riley talk 16:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "William Lloyd, a rich landowner, who owned Upper Brook Street, Mayfair" - I'm sure it's what the source says, but did he really own Upper Brook Street? We're talking 1830s/40s and the Survey of London suggests it was, as it is, part of the Grosvenor estate.
  • "after Soyer moved on after a year" - "when Soyer..." to avoid the duplicate?
Reform Club
  • Image - merely a question, but why is there a dog in the middle of the kitchen? Is it a rat-catcher?
  • Done.
Crimea

And that's it. Aside from the Lloyd/Upper Brook query, the comments are so trivial that I'm fine to Support as it stands. I know you'll adjust as you see fit. KJP1 (talk) 15:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, KJ. Support and comments much appreciated. I'll certainly follow up the point about Upper Brook Street. Tim riley talk 16:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've redrawn the sentence about Upper Brook Street so that it now says only that Lloyd had a town house there, which all the sources agree on. We are so lucky in Wikipedia to have PR and FAC processes that can catch such errors; authors of printed books have to live with their mistakes: in a history of the English National Opera I came across the statement that so-and-so died of "cancer of the sarcophagus". Tim riley talk 16:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some years ago, I had a rather sad correspondence with the editor of the only book on William Burges's work in Ireland. He was very disappointed with the outcome, on which he'd worked for years, principally due to the quality of the illustrations. Rather unhelpfully, I also drew his attention to a chapter where one of the contributors claimed that Burges had travelled in the Middle East, when he never went further than Constantinople. The book will likely never be revised/reissued and someday someone will insert that "fact" into Burges's article. KJP1 (talk) 07:01, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Harry

edit
  • appalling privations endured by British soldiers "Appalling" and "endured" in Wikipedia's voice are editorialising, much as the phrase rolls off the tongue!
  • I try to avoid quotations in the lead, so have put "appalling privations" in quotes in the main text with a citation to the source. I've done likewise for the "endured"; the source actually says "suffered", but there is or was an editor with a thing about the word "suffer" and for a quiet life I try not to use it except in quotes. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • newly-appointed full-time chef you don't need a hyphen with an -ly adverb; ditto recently-founded Reform Club
  • He was unharmed he → Soyer
  • At the suggestion of his brother Philippe brother is already named; also, comma?
  • There were three other brothers, hence the use of Philippe's name (and, as it's a restrictive phrase, hence too the absence of a comma; with a comma it would be non-restrictive and Philippe would be Alexis's only brother.) Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stafford House (now Lancaster House), was considered the grandest in the capital. [by whom?]
  • The cited source says "The Sutherlands lived in unrivalled splendour … and Stafford House, their London home, was widely considered the grandest residence in the capital. … its magnificence showed up neighbouring Buckingham Palace for the draughty old farmhouse that it was. " Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article currently just says "it was considered" in the passive voice. Without attribution, the reader can't tell if it was considered such by Soyer, Queen Victoria, the postman, your Uncle Fred, or Wikipedia. "According to Cower" or similar is all it needs. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:54, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The link on Thames-side is a bit awkward; one would expect to be directed to an article called "Thames-side". Perhaps just "riverside" (with or without hyphens or spaces and no link) would suffice?
  • Soyer's kitchens at the Reform were the most talked of in the country "talked of" probably *does* need a hyphen
  • In the last days of the Symposium, Soyer received an unexpected letter from France. It was from his son with Adelaide Lamain. She had died in 1836, and their son, Jean Alexis Lamain, had only recently learned who his father was. He asked to meet him and Soyer agreed. The two met in London and the father acknowledged his son (and later made him his heir) though the two agreed not to publicise their relationship The whole paragraph seems a little verbose for the amount of important information conveyed. Can we pare it back?
  • undertaking another pro bono publico assignment "pro bono publico" probably belongs in italics
  • In 1855 reports of the appalling conditions, including inadequate food, endured by British soldiers same concern as above with "appalling" and "endured"
  • under the elaborate memorial he had erected to his wife Just because I rather like Victorian cemeteries and monuments, is there a freely licenced photo?

That's it from me. Mostly pedantry really. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:02, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these, Harry. (Nothing wrong with pedantry anyway: as Fowler says, "my pedantry is your scholarship, his reasonable accuracy, her irreducible minimum of education, & someone else's ignorance".) I'll enjoy working my way through your points tomorrow. Tim riley talk 20:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Responses as above. Thank you, Harry – some good points there. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Everything of import has been addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:08, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestions and support gratefully received − many thanks, Harry. Tim riley talk 15:50, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

edit
  • Should "persona non grata" be italicised?
  • The Oxford English Dictionary treats the phrase as assimilated into English, and does not italicise it. Our own Wikipedia article on the term lurches from italics to roman and back again; I think it prudent to stick to the OED's formula. Tim riley talk 19:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding the Reform Club, you refer to "Soyer's kitchens" but in the caption it is "Soyer's kitchen".
  • Good point. I concur that I need to be consistent, but I'm not sure whether singular or plural is the idiomatic form for the cooking area of a London club. I'll check the sources and (I hope) find out what the accepted form is. Tim riley talk 19:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the privations breing suffered by the troops" Is this the proper quote? Perhaps a sic if so?
  • "He was then asked to design new kitchens for the existing Wellington Barracks; he was present at the opening of the new kitchens in July 1858.[7]" I might avoid the repetition if possible. Better, I might consolidate the reference to the barracks kitchens under "death", since the opening is mentioned there, and the level of detail seems similar.
It appears an expert chef has well-prepared an intellectual meal. Well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these points, Wehwalt. All very much ad rem. Tim riley talk 19:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note to the coordinators

edit

I am about to be away for 12 days from Wednesday 8th, barging down the Nile. I am assured I shall have internet access most of the time but, just in case, if there is a long silence from me, I beg for your forbearance till I'm back in London. Tim riley talk 19:37, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem Mr riley. Enjoy your time as a galley slave. Don't buy any fake pyramids. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:06, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Alexis_Soyer/archive1&oldid=1138849737"