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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/C. O. Brocato/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 26 October 2023 [1].

C. O. Brocato

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Nominator(s): BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With my first featured article nomination out of 850 articles created, may I present to you C. O. Brocato. I first found out about Brocato last June when I noticed he was one of the candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and saw he did not have an article. This was one of my favorites to write and I believe it is one of my best works. A little bit about Brocato:

From Louisiana, Brocato attended St. John's High School and was the football team captain while playing fullback and placekicker. After graduating from St. John's, he attended Baylor University and became known as one of the best placekickers under pressure in the U.S. (while receiving the nickname "The Foot" ) for his making of several game-winning kicks which helped lead Baylor to their first major bowl game. He was chosen in the National Football League Draft after his college career but was considered too small and opted to enter coaching instead of trying to make a team.

After assisting the Haynesville High School team for a time he was named head coach at St. John's High School, where he had graduated from. He led them to several championships and some of the best teams in school history; in his third year, he led them to their first winning season since he had captained them as a player — which was featured as a WP:DYK hook. Following his time at St. John's (renamed to Jesuit during his stint there), Brocato coached college football as an assistant with the Northern Arizona Lumberjacks and Texas–Arlington Mavericks before resigning in 1973 to enter the scouting ranks, which he was best known for.

Brocato was a scout from 1974 until his death at 85 in 2015 – all but four of those years with the Houston Oilers / Tennessee Oilers / Titans. He became regarded as one of the greatest scouts in football history for his extensive research on every player and for his mentoring of many others in the field. He drove across the country and added around 20,000 miles (32,000 km) per year to his car to do his research on NFL prospects – even going into his 70s. He also invented several NFL Scouting Combine events, including the three-cone drill – which is considered a key test for players nowadays. He was responsible for the Oilers / Titans' drafting of four Pro Football Hall of Fame players – including Earl Campbell, one of the best players of all time – and many of those whom Brocato worked with have advocated for his induction into the Hall of Fame as well. He has been a candidate for the hall on several occasions and was a semifinalist the past two years; the NFL also recently named an award in his honor, given to those who have "dedicated a lifetime of service to the scouting community".

I have had several users with FA experience review the article, including Gonzo fan2007 (who also reviewed it for DYK and WP:GA), Cbl62 and PCN02WPS. Also note that I intend on using this for the WikiCup, so I would appreciate if this could be finished by the end of October. Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First-time nomination

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It is done here and you don't need to do anything other than respond to any points raised as and when it happens. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PCN02WPS

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Gonzo_fan2007

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Resolved Comments by Gonzo_fan2007
*Scout (sport) should be linked in the lead and the body of the article.
    • Done.
  • In the first sentence, his work as a scout and coach just take pre-eminence over his brief playing career. Per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE, we should try to get his nationality in the lead. Recommend rewriting to Cosimo O. Brocato Jr. (October 31, 1929 – September 1, 2015) was an American scout, coach and football player
    • Done.
  • The Houston / Tennessee Oilers / Titans part is confusing. I would just change to the Tennessee Titans or add a note explanation that the team changed locations and names during his tenure.
    • Note added.
  • In the lead, you use the acronym NFL in the first paragraph (as part of 1953 NFL draft) but then define it in the second paragraph. You just define the acronym once and then use the acronym the rest of the way (MOS:ACRO).
    • Done, I think?
  • I know later on in the article you discuss who considers him "one of the greatest scouts in football history", but it would be nice to touch on that in the league such as His colleagues considered him one of...
    • Done.
  • Texas Longhorn football is linked twice in the body of the article.
    • Fixed.
  • standout comes across as a bit of a weasel word. Either delete or reword. The second sentence makes it known that he was successful during his high school playing career.
    • Deleted.
  • Versus Arkansas in their third game, recommend "Against" instead of "Versus" as a more natural beginning to a sentence.
    • Done.
  • crucial match-up, "match-up" isn't the word generally used in American football. Recommend just "game".
    • Done.
  • He later missed all three against Texas, but rebounded by a six-for-six showing against Wake Forest, for clarity, I would recommend adding "extra points" after "three"
    • Done.
  • Bowl game should be linked
    • Done.
  • while playing on defense, remove "on"
    • Done.
  • He was also a baseball player at Baylor, being a backup catcher to Larry Isbell.[21] He additionally was a boxer during his time at the school and competed at several local Golden Gloves tournaments. sounds clunky with "also" and "additionally". Can you say something like "In addition to college football, Brocato played baseball and was a boxer. He was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell for the baseball team and completed in several Golden Glove tournaments as a boxer." Or something like that?
    • Done.
  • He signed his first contract on May 5, combine with the previous sentence.
    • Done.
  • He used the Winged-T offense probably worthy of saying "Brocato" again.
    • Done.
  • They then won five straight games to finish the season, the use of "then" after the previous sentence would make it appear that they won six total games. I would delete "then".
    • Done.
  • Brocato would add over 20,000 miles to his vehicle every year – even going into his 70s – to scout players, watching them in practice, in games, at pro days and at the NFL Scouting Combine, then interviewing coaches, trainers, team staff and family members, after which he would watch more film of the player, sort of a run-on sentence, recommend splitting into two.
    • Done.
  • Moment of silence is probably an overlink at this point. The English words "moment" and "silence" are clear enough to convey the meaning without a hyperlink and this topic isn't essential to understand Brocato.
    • De-linked.
  • There were suggestions to coach George Sauer that he find a new person, who made these suggestions? And recommend clarifying what you mean by "person"? Someone off the street, or another teammate?
    • The source (same as above) says "And no placement kicker had a poorer beginning In the Bears' 1951 opener with University of Houston, Brocato tried two, missed two. His efforts resembled the type of kicks you'd expect from a 10-year-old kid on the corner lot. Baylor won 19-0 with soph Jimmy Davenport kicking the only extra point. Sidewalk quarterbacks suggested that Coach George Sauer find himself a placement kicker for use in the close games sure to come. Sauer's answer was that Brocato would do all right - if the holder did a better job of taking the snaphack and teeing the pigskin properly. So Brocato and his holder Francis (Cotton) Davidson went back to work." I'm not quite sure who exactly is meant by sidewalk quarterback, do you understand it? As for the other part, I would assume it to be another teammate - would changing it to "new player" work?
  • including one that won the game 21–20., was this a walk-off extra point? Or did it just provide the difference. If the latter, then I would just reword to "during a 21-20 victory" or something like that.
  • one of the best kickers when under pressure, explain what pressure means here. Aren't kickers always under pressure?

That's all I got. Please ping me when you are ready for me to come back and take a look. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:54, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • Suggest adding alt text

Comments from Mike Christie

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I copyedited a little as I read through; please feel free to revert anything you disagree with.

  • Suggest saying in the lead that Haynesville High School is in Louisiana.
    • Done.
  • "three-of-four": I was surprised to see the hyphens; is this standard in AmEng? I see the hyphens are used repeatedly later in the article; they look quite odd to my eyes.
  • "successfully attempted" is used twice in two sentences.
    • Changed.
  • "He converted both extra points against SMU, which was the margin of victory in the 14–13 win." "Both" implies two points, but the margin was three.
  • "In addition to college football, Brocato played baseball and was a boxer. He was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell on the baseball team and competed at several Golden Gloves tournaments as a boxer." Suggest "In addition to playing college football, Brocato was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell on the baseball team and competed at several Golden Gloves tournaments as a boxer."
    • Changed.
  • "He left the team in August after being told by coach Joe Stydahar that he was not heavy enough—Brocato weighed 185 pounds (84 kg)—to play professionally, with the intention to get a master's degree and then enter coaching." If we know Stydahar told him this in August (rather than only knowing he left in August) how about "In August the coach, Joe Stydahar, told him that at 185 pounds (84 kg) he was not heavy enough to play professionally, and Brocato left the team, intending to get a master's degree and then enter coaching." If we only know he left in August I'd suggest something similar, but move the "in August" to "Brocato left the team in August".
    • Changed.
  • "When Cosmo smiled it was ear to ear": I thought this might be a typo but I see from the clipping that it's not, or at least if so it's a typo in the original. It's used twice in the original, but I think it's a typo there; some Googling has convinced me it was never used publicly as a general name for him. I would suggest adding {{sic}} after it in the quote.
    • Changed.
  • Per MOS:DASH you can have spaced en dashes or unspaced em dashes, but not both in the same article.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from WikiOriginal-9

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  • Do you think "Houston Oilers / Tennessee Oilers / Tennessee Titans" would be better, or no?
    • Eh, I kinda feel like its long enough already with "Houston / Tennessee Oilers / Titans" - I think with the note that's been added it should be alright.
  • Who is Tom Kelly in the image caption? Perhaps it should just say "with a player"?
    • Changed to "with a player"
  • "He missed all but one of his five attempts" Is that extra points or field goals or both combined?
    • Extra points, it appears - clarified.
  • Should we cite his height and weight in the infobox? It's from Pro Football Archives. We usually don't put citations in the infobox for players but this is a FA candidate. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 18:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support I don't see anymore issues. I didn't do a full source review but I expect that's been done by this point. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 10:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Source formatting is mostly consistent and all necessary information is there. I notice there is a preeetty strong reliance on newspaper sources here - are there no biographies?

Since a spot-check has been asked for and with the caveat that this isn't a topic I am familiar with (I've always thought that American football and baseball are the same thing):

Unrelated to spotchecking, but "St. John's was renamed to Jesuit High School in 1960" should probably be mentioned much earlier in the article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:48, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Currently we are waiting for a pass or fail from Jo-Jo. Once that happens one of the coordinators will have a more detailed look at things. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, forgot to ask a few questions, they are in now. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Responded to each of them. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:20, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, sorry for asking what seems like trivial questions. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: That's alright though, is this considered a source review pass? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FAC coordinators: Gog the Mild (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be heading in the right direction but I'd prefer to wait a little longer to see if it attracts another general review or two before I look at it with a view to closing. FrB.TG (talk) 19:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FrB.TG: Noting that since the prior comment it has gotten another support. Just wondering if sufficient work has been done or should I try to find another reviewer, as I've been really hoping to get this done in time for the WikiCup (end of the month). BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi BeanieFan, yes this is next on my list to go over for possible closure so sit tight. That is unless one of my fellow coordinators beats me to it. FrB.TG (talk) 07:08, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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