Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2015 May 24

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May 24

Problem involving my personal sandbox

I have a problem I hope someone can help me with.  I was playing around in my user sandbox (just lots of miscellaneous testing of wiki code stuff, including some snippets I copied and pasted from a regular page).  Anyway when I have the stuff in my user sandbox user page everything is OK.  But when copy the exact same stuff into my user sandbox talk page, I immediately get the following warning:
This sandbox is in the User talk namespace. Either move this page into your userspace, or remove the {{User sandbox}} template.
I don't understand; I thought I could use both sections of my personal sandbox (User Page, and Talk) for more or less whatever I wanted (as long as it's not malicious or illegal).  Why am I being told to move it somewhere?  I don't even fully understand what they're telling me to do, let alone why they're telling me to do it.  I really appreciate any help anyone can provide.  Thanks.
P.S.  I apparently can make the warning go away by deleting the "{{User sandbox}}" at the start of the wiki code ; but I don't understand why this should be necessary in either section of my own personal sandbox.
Richard27182 (talk) 08:48, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Richard27182, While you may use sandbox pages pretty freely, it is usually assumed that a talk page is still a talk page. If you used a sandbox to draft an article, for example, the talk page would be where you and anyone you invited to join you discussed the draft. Or it could be where you experiment with wiki code designed for talk pages.

The template {{User sandbox}} includes code that checks what namespace it is transcluded into. If it is anything but the User: namespace, it displays the message you observed. This is present becauae it has happened that article drafts and other sandboxes were moved to other namespaces, including the main article space, in error. It is to warn about this that the message is generated.

You can hanve many persional sandboxes, as many aas you like (within reason). Your default sandbox is at User:Richard27182/sandbox. But pages such as User:Richard27182/sandbox2 User:Richard27182/sandbox_links or any similar name you like can be created and can hold anything that your default sandbox could hold, and each of them could have its own talk page. See WP:UP and Wikipedia:About the Sandbox for more. DES ^(talk) 12:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, but I'm still a bit confused.  I think my main problem is I still don't completely understand the concept of "spaces" (namespace, mainspace, user space, etc); once I fully understand the concept of "spaces," I think the above answer will make a lot more sense to me.  In the meantime, I'd rather not create any new personal sandboxes and have just my regular personal sandbox because it's so easy to access; I just have to click the "sandbox" link at the top of the page when I'm logged in.  As a temporary solution could I just make sure that, when I'm using my personal user talk sandbox, I'll make sure that "{{User sandbox}}" doesn't appear anywhere in the wiki code?  (The warning did seem to suggest doing that as one possible solution.)
Richard27182 (talk) 09:38, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Namespace. User talk pages are not intended for sandboxes. It's possible to use them for that but it may confuse others. And as you have seen, some things behave differently for different namespaces so for example {{User sandbox}} should not be used. User talk:Richard27182/sandbox is two clicks away but there are many ways to get multiple normal user sandboxes two clicks away. Assuming your browser has JavaScript, one way is to use User:PrimeHunter/My subpages.js by adding this to Special:MyPage/common.js:

importScript('User:PrimeHunter/My_subpages.js'); // Linkback: [[User:PrimeHunter/My subpages.js]]

For me the produced link to the left of "Preferences" is "Subpages". For you it would be "Subpages" which currently only lists one page, but if pages like User:Richard27182/sandbox2 existed then they would automatically be listed. Another method which doesn't require JavaScript is to add user subpage links to User:Richard27182, either manually for each page or all automatically by for example adding {{Special:PrefixIndex/User:Richard27182/}}. Edits to your user page are also visible to others who view the page. The JavaScript method would only affect you. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm still *very* new to all this and still have a lot to learn.  What I really need to know for the moment is this: will it cause any significant problems if I use my User talk:Richard27182/sandbox as a regular sandbox as long as I avoid having ''{{User sandbox}}" anywhere in the wiki code it contains?  I plan to eventually understand all this stuff about how the various spaces work, how to create additional sandboxes that are as easy to access as my regular sandbox(es) (User: and User talk:), etc.  But at this *very* early point in my Wikipedia editing "career," most of this is still foreign to me.  So my basic question is:
For the time being, will it cause any seroius problems if I use User talk:Richard27182/sandbox the same way I use User:Richard27182/sandbox, assuming I avoid having ''{{User sandbox}}" appear in the code it contains?
Richard27182 (talk) 23:08, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Richard27182, no doing that won't (or at least probably won't cause "significant problems". A few things might work differently if you are experimenting with template code. Ordinary wiki markup should work the same. Doing that might cause confusion to others working with you, and is not really a best practice, but it won't harm anything. DES ^(talk) 00:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

@Richard27182: You said you don't understand the concept of namespaces. Imagine you have a house. In the house you have a kitchen for cooking, a dining room for eating, a bathroom for pooping, a living room for entertaining company, and a bedroom for sleeping. Each room has a different purpose. Now, if I went to your house and tried to eat in the living room you might ask me politely to eat in the dining room. Likewise if I tried to cook in the bathroom it wouldn't work very well. If I tried to poop in the bed room you'd probably throw me out. On Wikipedia the different namespaces are like different rooms in a house. Each namespace has a purpose, and if you try to use them for things other than their purpose it won't go over very well; at best causing confusion (eating in the living room), at worst causing major problems (pooping in the bedroom). Article space looks like Example and is for articles that are ready to be presented to the public. Draft space looks like Draft:Example and is for drafts that aren't yet ready to go live. User space looks like User:Example and is for you to tell people about your self and your Wikipedia activities and interests. Talk space looks like Talk:Example or User Talk:Example and is for talking about an article or talking with a user - discussing how to develop a page. Wikipedia space looks like WP:Example and is for promulgating rules and guidelines and discussing the process of building an encyclopedia. Sandboxes are for practicing, playing around with wiki code and wiki markup. Make sense? ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 15:41, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

    I think I understand the concept of namespaces, but I'm not sure if I understand how they actually function,  ie, exactly what the System does with them.  For example, are there "spaces" that can only be accessed by some editors?  Or are certain "spaces" automatically archived while others are not.  Or do certain wiki codes or templates function one way in some "spaces" and differently in others?  Unless the System running Wikipedia itself somehow makes some distinction concerning what is and is not done with different "spaces," then I don't understand why they exist in the first place.  And by extension, don't understand what would be undesirable about using User talk:Richard27182/sandbox for editing practice, since no one besides me would be accessing it to begin with.
    UNLESS............. Is it possible that there is some way editors can automatically search all of Talkspace for changes (to see what new topics are being discussed); and if I've used User talk:Richard27182/sandbox for editing practice then that editing practice would show up along with all the new discussions (on talk pages)?   If that's the case then I understand everything.   And if that's the case then I should be able to avoid the problem by never hitting "Save page" when edit practicing in User talk:Richard27182/sandbox, since this would avoid changing anything in Talkspace to begin with.  Did I end up figuring this out for myself, or am I way off base?  I'm pretty sure it's one or the other.  Please let me know which it is.  (And if I'm wrong, you'll probably at least have a better understanding of why I'm confused.)
Richard27182 (talk) 10:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Richard27182, By default, templates and most other aspects of the system function in the same way in all namespaces. However, a template can detect the namespace where it is being used, and be coded to function differently in different namespaces. {{Userspace draft}} is one such template. Searches can be limited to a particular namespace or set of namespaces. Anyone can edit in any namespace, but unregistered and unconfirmed users cannot create new pages in the article namespace. Many talk pages are automatically archived, but this must be set up for each such page.

Mostly the different namespaces serve as a sorting device, to indicate what sort of things to expect on a page. Mainspace pages are for articles; Wikipedia pages are for policies, guidelines, essays and administrative pages that help the project function (such as WP:AFD); Draft pages are for articles in the process of being created, not yet ready for general view; user pages are for work by a particular user; Category pages are for grouping other pages. Each of these will have its corresponding talk namespace.

One of the ways in which the system does react to namespaces is that pretty much all pages come in pairs -- every page in a non-talk namespace has a (possibly empty) page in the corresponding talk namespace. So an article (in "mainspace") has a talk page in the Talk: namespce; a user page (in User:) has a user talk page (in the user talk namespace); a project page like this one (in the Wikipedia: namespace) has its talk page (in the Wikipedia Talk: namespace), and so on. In all cases the talk page is used to discuss the corresponding page and what goes on it, except for the very special case of the main user talk page, which is intended to communicate with the user. But all talk pages are designed to be used for communication among users. When a page is moved or deleted, the corresponding talk page (usually) goes with it. I hope this helps explain things a bit. DES ^(talk) 22:46, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi DES and thank you for your reply. I appreciate your taking the time to try to help me understand the namespace aspect of Wikipedia, especially as it applies to the talkspace. But the one thing I still don't understand is this: everybody is telling me that I shouldn't do edit practice in User talk:Richard27182/sandbox because other editors will see it there in talkspace and know that it doesn't belong there, or even become confused over it. But I don't understand how any other editor would end up seeing it to begin with unless he takes an uninvited look in my personal sandbox (and I can't imagine why anyone would bother to do that). The only possibility that occurred to me is that some editors might do some kind of search specifically of the talkspace and stumble onto the contents of User talk:Richard27182/sandbox that way. If that's the case, then I think I understand.   Is that in fact the case?
Richard27182 (talk) 10:27, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Richard27182, it is possible to search all of talk space for a particular string, but that is unlikely to turn up sandbox pages, although it might. There are people who monitor recent changes, looking for odd things that might be a problem, but they mostly don't bother with user or user talk namespaces. Still they could. Remember than any edit to Wikipedia, even in user or user talk spaces, is public, and anyone may look at it at any time. Doing so is not "nosy", nor does it need an invitation. What is more likely is if you had some sort of problem with code in a sandbox and asked for help, the would-be helper might be confused by experiments in a talk page. Also getting into a habit of using talk pages as they are designed will serve you well in the rest of the wiki. But IMO it probably won't hurt anyone if you use a talk page as a sandbox. Still I would advise you to learn how to create multiple sandboxes, each with its own talk page, as othrs have suggested above. DES ^(talk) 12:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

If you are active then many users who encounter you will probably examine your contributions at Special:Contributions/Richard27182 which is visible to everybody and can be restricted by namespace, for example user talk [1] if they want to see how you interact with others. The first thing they will see is that you mainly abuse the namespace for other things than interaction. If you request adminship one day then it will probably hurt your chances if you continue doing it. A large number of user talk edits is usually considered a positive sign of interaction in administrator candidates but if people think you are artificially inflating your count then it will hurt you. Simply noticing that you apparently don't know or care what user talk is for will also hurt you. There are many potential problems with using user talk pages for sandbox work, also if you never apply for adminship or other user rights. I can think of about seven off the top of my head. No major but a lot of minor, both for you and others. You have repeatedly been told that it's not intended for that. Instead of just accepting that and doing sandbox work in pages meant for that, you seem very insistent on gaming the system and getting others to spend their volunteer time discussing it with you. We are a collaborative project but I have already mentally flagged you as a problematic user. That may have consequences later, for example reluctance to answer questions if I fear being dragged into another long discussion where you try to avoid following clear advice. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Who created a deleted page?

What tool can I use to find out who was the author of a page that was deleted? I know that there is a tool, I saw it once, but I forgot the name, and now I can't find it. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:18, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

You can ask an admin like me. I don't know a general non-admin tool for pages, only Special:Log/upload for files. Help:What links here for a deleted page will often have a link to a user talk page where the author was notified. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:16, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) If you know the exact name of the page, you can navigate to the now deleted page and click on "what links here" to see if the page was mentioned on their talk page. You can also search the user talk namespace for that (in quotes if more than one word) or an exact but partial title match being mentioned in a notification to someone of the deletion – most creators are informed on their talk pages upon a page being tagged for deletion, with the name of the page included in the notification. For example (using a page deleted almost ten years ago), if I wanted to find who was the author of "testosterone (band)" I would find the warning to the creator via this search. The history of deleted pages is only available to administrators and others with higher permissions. Sorry, I know of no tool.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter and Fuhghettaboutit: Thanks a lot for taking time to answer me. I know all those methods, of course. But I think I saw a tool that can be used to determinate who was the author of a page that is now deleted. There are many Wikipedia mirror sites (like deletionpedia) that keep data about deleted Wikipedia pages, so the tool I'm asking for seams quite possible to exist. Vanjagenije (talk) 15:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

It may exist but as I said I don't know of it. I almost never touch another person post but I have unlinked above. Sites like that are an abomination. They are containment vessel for the enshrinement of, among others, scads of actionable defamatory content and copyright violations and should not be linked.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:42, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Pinging

Forgive the elementary nature of this question, but when I "ping" someone in the midst of a comment on a Talk page, as in User1, where/how does that show up -- as simply a red "notification" number next to his username atop the page? And, if so, what is the notification -- a link to the Talk comment? Or, instead, will the entire comment appear on his Talk page? (What I want is that he see the comment.) Thanks very much. Charles J. Hanley 15:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC) Cjhanley (talk)

Cjhanley, I just pinged you, see what shows up for you. Normally, this shows up in the notification box, a red box with a white number (if there is at least one notification, it is grey if there are none). A user can change they way this displays for him- or herself, but few do change it. When user clicks on the box, a list of recent notifications is displayed, and for pings it will indicate the username of the user who created the ping, along with a link to the section where it was done. I don't think you can change how a ping to another user will appear. If you want that user to see a specific text, then leave a message on that user's user talk page. DES ^(talk) 15:44, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

That's great, DES. Thanks so much. Charles J. Hanley 15:56, 24 May 2015 (UTC) Cjhanley (talk)

@Cjhanley: also note that the ping only works if the 1) ping template with 2) the exact spelling and case of the actual user account name are 3) completed in the same save action as a fresh signature. If you miss any one of those three and go back to "fix it" in another edit, the ping will not work. If someone pings me with @TPROD aka The Red Pen of Doom: , I will not get a message because that is not my username. ---- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:21, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

ref error problem

List of cocaine analogues

@ ref # five it says "Cite error: The named reference Singh was invoked but never defined (see the help page)."

But it is defined just the same as every other linked instance of it! The same name in the code and all.

AnomieBOT (talk | contribs)‎ came through and took out all of the citations, and I undid the revision, and now that one won't show right. It was fine before. The strange thing, is, that in the history of the article, it still shows that as having a cite error, when it didn't used to.

Please help, Nagelfar (talk) 18:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Nagelfar. I can see many references to <ref name=Singh /> but the one that actually defines that reference (which will have the form <ref name=Singh>...</ref> appears to have been removed at some point. --ColinFine (talk) 19:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Nagelfar. I think ColinFine was mistaken. The problem was that this uses both standard references (with the <ref> tag) and a notelist with {{efn}}, and those notes include their own references. The reference list for the notes is separate from the regular ref list, and an item defined in one cannot simply be referred to by name from the other. I duplicated the content of the "Singh" reference at the first non-notes use of it, and changed all other non-notes references to the new name "Singh2". Note that this problem has been present sicne the notelist was first introduced to the article, back in march of this year with this edit. DES ^(talk) 20:57, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much DESiegel. Your effort in correcting this is extremely appreciated. I've been nursing this particular article for nigh seven years. It was fine before, but just recently that one citation went kaput. Nagelfar (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

how come my {insert question here}

How come a wikipedia account doesn't transfer to another version? FamilycomputerFTW (talk) 18:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello, FamilycomputerFTW. It can do - see WP:Unified login. --ColinFine (talk) 19:04, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Based on your user name, FamilycomputerFTW , note that a Wikipedia account is for an individual, not a family. Each person using that family computer for editing Wikipedia will need their own personal account. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

The userpage suggests that the term "familycomputer" is a reference to the Famicom, not a group of people. Chaheel Riens (talk) 19:39, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Trying to remove bias in article on G. Edward Griffin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have changed the wording several times just to remove the bias...not change the facts. Someone keeps editing it back. They use 4-5 different names, however I believe it to be the same person as it's always within a minute or so and it's always the exact same wording as previously. If it cannot be changed so that it contains no bias then that leads me to believe most articles are biased so I will have to quit referring to Wikipedia ...and will instruct friends & family of the problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.112.152.148 (talk) 19:38, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

As multiple editors have explained, stopping you from inserting your personal bias and restoring the article to its sourced form is not inserting bias. As I have pointed out, your accusations of sockpuppetry (from a "govt defamation dept," no less) are just plain paranoid.

Your edits have gone from biased to sheer vandalism. By all means, leave the site and discourage anyone who thinks like you to stay away from it as well. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:41, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

To clarify what Ian Thomson has written, the IP is inserting non-neutral material non-consensus material. Multiple respected editors keep reverting the article. The IP doesn't recognize them as multiple respected editors and thinks that they are the same person. The IP has now taken to inserting attacks against the editors into the body of the article. Attacks in a talk page are a civility violation, but inserting attacks into the article itself is an unusual form of vandalism. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:35, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

talk page

what do I do if someone is leaving unwanted notes on my talk page?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

You may remove them. Ruslik_Zero 19:58, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

can I block them from my page?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

You may ban them from posting to your talk page. Certain required notices, such as notice that they have reported you to a noticeboard, override a user-imposed talk page ban. Other than that, if you have banned them from your talk page, continuing to post to it is considered disruptive editing. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I see that you already have been deleting the unwanted posts. However, before banning anyone from unwanted posts, please consider that they may really be offering you reasonable advice. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:20, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

that is true... but how could that be if ive never spoken to this individual at any article talk page or article??--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

thank you--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

It is extremely common for the first interaction between Editor A and Editor B to be on B's talk page, where A is seeking to offer suggestions, ask questions, issue warnings, or otherwise interact in order to improve the encyclopedia (just as I am now here at the Help Desk). --Orange Mike | Talk 21:20, 24 May 2015 (UTC)