Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2021 April 11

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April 11

Jesus Christ as a Co-Author

The end of Warren Jeffs § Jesus Christ Message to All Nations contains 3 citations, the first of which names Jesus Christ as a co-author. Is it standard practice in Wikipedia to cite a figure purported by the actual author to be imparting prophecy? If not, should Jesus Christ be removed from this citation? Thompcha (talk) 06:00, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Thompcha: I removed the author’s name. If he’s upset by that, he can discuss on the article’s talk page. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:40, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, Je... jeez, Tim, I literally LOLed out loud when I read this! Pelagic ( messages ) – (23:43 Tue 13, AEDT) 12:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Rollbacker's advantages

What more can rollbackers do than non-rollbackers in countering vandalism? Dr Salvus 08:05, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Dr Salvus: Not that much really, they just have access to the internal "rollback" feature that allows quicker revisions than the "rollback-like" features of Twinkle or other tools or the "undo" button, which each need to load an edit page first. See Wikipedia:Rollback for details. Regards SoWhy 08:56, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

They can use Wikipedia:Huggle. Ruslik_Zero 08:57, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

PEOPLE WITH Parkinson's disease

Linda Ronstadt, the one-time “First Lady of Rock”, is no longer able to sing due to Parkinson's disease = THIS LADY IS NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR LIST OF PEOPLE WITH PARKINSON'S DISEASE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.37.240 (talk)

She is on List of people diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, it appears. Was there another list you had in mind? Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I have added Linda Ronstadt to Category:People with Parkinson's disease. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Donation

Hi, I saw that you are looking for donations and I would be happy to help. However can you please make it easier to donate. Function Paypal is not the easiest and I will not add credit cards. If you would for example have Trustly service it would be a lot easier for many people to donate. Also trustly has low cost for you if you contact them as Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.174.186.88 (talk) 09:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello. Donations are made to the Wikimedia Foundation, which supports many projects of which Wikipedia is one: nobody editing Wikiepdia has any control or any particular influence in this. Ways to donate are described at m:Donations. If you want ot make other suggestions, please discuss them at that article's talk page. --ColinFine (talk) 12:52, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Question

Why can't non-sysop view delete contributions? Dr Salvus 12:43, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

That is because deleted contributions are generally deleted by admins. The point of deleting them is to not have them be readable anymore. There are quite a lot of reasons why we delete contributions, and some reasons why we wouldn't even want them readable by admins. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:50, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Dr Salvus, the information page Wikipedia:Viewing deleted content suggests that allowing non-sysops to view deleted contributions would cause legal problems. TSventon (talk) 12:53, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Because sysops want to make people edit more to get sysop, simple lol. 91.142.213.109 (talk) 17:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect Year Of Birth For American Singer Mariah Carey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariah_Carey

This is, for whatever reason, a highly debated topic - the year of birth for Mariah Carey. Formerly, the Wikipedia page for Mariah Carey stated that the singer was born in either 1969 or 1970, and as of recent, has been changed to the incorrect year, 1969. Mariah is undoubtedly born in 1970 - this has been confirmed by her OWN MOTHER on the Oprah Winfrey Show, back in 1999.

link to evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZfz3A-ptAw

timestamp, 2:25 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C8:7F88:9800:CCD1:6CC5:8926:6FD1 (talk) 16:03, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

The citation in the note following the date of birth given in the article shows that her birth was announced in a local paper in 1969. It's improbable (to say the least) that such an announcement would appear a year in advance of her actual birth. Deor (talk) 16:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Please see the note 'a' next to the DoB in the first sentence for clarification. However the video does state at ~2.33 that she was born in 1970. But, as noted above the local paper would hardly have published an announcement a year before her birth. It could easily just be a 'slip of the tongue' by the mother. If you wish to discuss further, please do so at the article talk page. (Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four keyboard tildes like this: ~~~~. Or, you can use the [ reply ] button, which automatically signs posts.) Thank you. Eagleash (talk) 16:24, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

See Talk:Mariah Carey#New evidence for 1969 birth. Huntington had 200,000 people. The chance of another Mariah being born exactly 1 year before her to "Mr. and Mrs. Alfred Carey" is extremely small. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:41, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

• Also note that many celebrities are not completely honest about their ages, for various reasons. 331dot (talk) 17:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Indeed. Laura Branigan is a case where the date of birth reported by reliable sources was obviously false based on study of early newspaper clippings, school records and the like. A diligent fan worked for years to get reliable sources to correct the record, and eventually succeeded. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

But Brannigan's dead. She's beyond caring what we publish. It's really different if the subject is still on the right side of the ground, as Mariah Carey is.

Looks to me like there are sources giving one date, one the other. Unless the sources on one side are near useless, we don't have any business picking which one is the stone truth. Carey's mother is a poor source, but there are apparently other sources that agree with her.

Morever, it is pretty clear that Carey doesn't want people to necessarily know her real birth date -- stuff like this Yahoo story sure as heck makes me believe that could be true -- and/or doesn't want them to think that it's 1969. She's alive and wriggling so that matters a whole lot.

WP:BLP (at WP:DOB) says

Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public.

It doesn't say "widely and uncontestedly published by reliable sources" although you could certainly infer that that'd be assumed. If you're a strict constructionist and you kind of squint, you can parse the text to say that sources that indicate that the subject does object can just be ignored rather than taken as guidance, and as long as you only use sources that don't happen to also include the subject objecting. That's obviously perverting the intent, and most people wouldn't agree with you I think.

But if you want to plow on and not admit you've already fouled out, you must at least agree that "widely published by reliable sources" is required. Alright, to prove that Carey was born in 1969 and no other year, we have five sources:

• A "birth announcement in Carey's hometown newspaper The Long-Islander [which] indicates 1969". That is not "widely published". How many people have read that. It's investigative work for us to have dug that up.
• The LA Times and Newsday both use math to back-figure a birthday from just the age, that's investigative journalism and we don't do that. That's right out. We don't do "Smith is 5'10" tall, as demonstrated by this photo of him standing next to Tom Hanks who is 6'0"" and like that.
• People Magazine is a good source, is widely read, and does straight up say she was born on March 27, 1969.[1]. So that's one. Whether one source is enough to fulfill "widely published", I don't know. It's reasonable to say so I guess. And of course there may be other good sources, but "may be" is not good enough for possibly fraught statements in a BLP; they have to be put in or the material removed.

But don't forget that there are also apparently some sources on the 1970 side. I haven't vetted them.

Bottom line: at best, you're skating on really really thin ice to give a single date as the stone fact. We shouldn't do it. OP is spot on and should not be blown off. Herostratus (talk) 04:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

In a case like this, a local newspaper is an ideal source, because there's no credible case to be made for it being falsified 52 years ago. The People article is solid verification. Nobody's offered a reliable source for the later date. --Orange Mike | Talk 05:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Calling "investigative journalism" or sources with less quality those who have cited the 1969 year seems disputable when the apparently reason is because preferred year is 1970. Yes, Mariah, her fans or relatives have said she was born on 1970 and we have the impression she is herself aware that her age has been disputed. A user commented something like "1 year doesn't make a difference". For her analogy a decade of difference makes more sense (I mean a person born from 1970s instead 1960s). Like it or not, there is no way to overlook the fact of a birth announcement IMHO. Maybe those who are really convinced that she was born in 1970, can take a look of something calling Age fabrication when a person changes information on her/his vital records, a practice among some celebrities. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 15:43, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Presumably Carey's birth was officially registered somewhere. In the UK, anyone can obtain a birth certificate for somebody else on application to a registrar's office and payment of a small fee. I don't know what the situation in the US is though. Mjroots (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

move page causes name conflict

I'd like to move a page, but the target title already exists as a redirect page. Essentially I want to swap the titles of the two pages. I figure I can do this by first moving the redirect page using a temporary title, but first want to see if there is a better way to do this. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biggleston (talk • contribs) 16:57, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Biggleston The easiest thing to do would be to simply delete the redirect first, then move the article, then recreate a redirect at the original article title. As deleting requires an administrator, you may request the page move at requested moves. If you think the page move will be at all controversial, you should first establish a consensus for what you want to do. 331dot (talk) 17:24, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Level 1 or level 4 warn?

How is it possible to define whether to warn a vandal with level 1 or directly at level 4? Dr Salvus 21:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Dr Salvus: You can see the guidance here on when to start at level 1 and when to start at level 3 or 4: Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_warnings/Usage_and_layout RudolfRed (talk) 21:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

A picture of possible value.

I have a picture that my great uncle took of the USS Rhode Island that may be of interest on the Wikipedia entry USS_Rhode_Island_(BB-17) It is unique because of the ship's paint job and I didn't see it on any of the US Navy History pages either. How would one go about uploading it and/or adding it to that wiki entry?

User S8635 — Preceding unsigned comment added by S8635 (talk • contribs) 22:39, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@S8635: if you own the copyright to it, I'd recommend uploading it to Wikimedia Commons: c:Special:UploadWizard. Then, you can insert it into the article. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:25, 12 April 2021 (UTC)