Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2021 September 3

Welcome to the Wikipedia Help Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current Help Desk pages.

September 3

Alphabetisation of Länsiviitta

I recently started an article about the Länsiviitta shopping centre. How is this supposed to be alphabetised in List of shopping malls in Finland? According to Finnish alphabetisation, Länsiviitta comes after both Lauttis and Lippulaiva (article does not yet exist), because in Finnish, "ä" is a separate letter and not a modification of "a", and comes at the end of the alphabet. However, on one hand, this is the English Wikipedia and not the Finnish one, but on the other hand, all of the names of the shopping centres involved here are in Finnish. JIP | Talk 01:03, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Oof, interesting question. We appear not to have a rule for it. The article Alphabetical order says that for French anyway, letters with diacritics are treated as the base letter ("rôle comes between rock and rose, as if it were written role"). But right, it says for Finnish that the extra non-Latin letters Å, Ä, and Ö come at the end after Z. So... since that is how Finnish is handled in the wide world (I guess) and, since the proper noun Länsiviitta is a Finnish and not an English word (it wouldn't and I guess couldn't have an ä in it if was an English word), I suppose using the Finnish order would be proper and you could do that. That would be correct I guess. If it was me, I'd use the French method anyway cos I think that's friendlier to English readers and for my part that's more imporatant. Others may advise differently, but it looks like our Manual of Style doesn't cover this (Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (regional) doesn't include advice for Swedish or Finnish), so it's up to you to what you think best. Herostratus (talk) 01:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@Herostratus: Wikipedia:Alphabetical order does not seem to be correct anymore. Should it be marked as historical or deleted? GoingBatty (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh right User:GoingBatty, I saw that but I didn't realize it applied to article titles generally. Thanks. Hmmmm, that page is just a page -- it's not marked as any kind of rule, even a guideline, but it's not marked as an essay or anything else... it's just a page. You do see that, and its fine, but I guess its just a page that somebody wrote, wouldn't take it a rule that needs to be followed I guess. I does contradict how French is handled. It does support the Finnish method used in the real world. There does seem to be some activity on that page. I left a note on the talk page. Herostratus (talk) 11:19, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@JIP: This doesn't answer your question, but I suggest that the redlinks be deleted, as most pages of standalone lists require each entry to have a Wikipedia article to demonstrate notability. GoingBatty (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@JIP: You could check some other Finnish lists, for example List of Finnish municipalities uses Finnish alphabetisation. TSventon (talk) 07:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• I would say to go with the Finnish order, at least because it would be hard to draw a line with other languages. Clearly the alphabetisation of Chinese or Japanese dialects will not be feasible based on English rules, but what about Greek or Russian (where many of the letters have a 1-for-1 correspondance with their Roman counterparts)? What about Danish, where "ø" does not resemble "o" all that much and is actually prononced entirely differently? Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 08:54, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

It's possible that this is one of those cases were it might be reasonable to provide Manual of Style guidance? Basically we could just point to the article Alphabetical order or something. The plus on this would be to provide a framework for consistent alphabetizing. Then we would not have to slop around looking for answers every (rare) time the question comes up. It's also neater but for my part so what, as it'd be another gosh-darn rule, it comes up really rarely and even then I doubt it's of any real importance, so letting the person doing the work do what she thinks best and not micromanaging her is fine with me and neatness at the margins at this level is overrated IMO. Also any discussion would maybe end up ~50-50 and nothing would happen. I'm not going to start that discussion, but if someone wants to it might be good. Herostratus (talk) 11:19, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I Just think a list that goes goes (I'm making these up) "Arphi, Helsinki, Oulu, ... etc etc etc... Zentria, Årnheim" might seem wrong to an English speaker and make it harder for her to find the Årnheim entry (if the list was long)? Not sure. But most people aren't as up on the details of this sort of thing as the typical Wikipedia editor particularly the typical editor that can read Finnish. Most people would pronounce "wäßrig" as "wabrig" for instance I'm pretty sure. Herostratus (talk) 11:30, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Just ignoring diacritics and non-English letters would be consistent with what is done with category sorting. – Rummskartoffel 11:35, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that as stated in the article ä, in some languages it is a separate letter and in some languages it is a form of a. The software that sorts the character can't tell whether the article is German or Finnish, and so has to treat it in a single way. In this case, the letter in the list is a separate letter, so I think using the Finnish order would be appropriate (at the end of the Alphabet)

Agreed with using Finnish alphabet and clarifying this in WP:Manual of Style for the future. In the case of German, ü can be replaced with ue and ß with ss, which is often done for website urls, in which case I'd sort a German ü between uc and uf, since Umlaut is a letter modifier/combo. How do Finnish websites handle it? ~ Shushugah (he/him • talk) 12:41, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Following Shugshah's comment, ä can be replaced by ae. Mjroots (talk) 13:12, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Only in German. In Finnish, a and ä are separate letters. JIP | Talk 13:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Go with the finnish order at Finnish Wikipedia & the english order at English Wikipedia, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 22:23, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Alright, I've opened up an RfC here: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC on alphabetization of extended-latin characters (eg "ä" etc). Now see what you've done User:JIP! (Just kidding, thanks for bringing this up.) Over to there then I guess, lads and lasses. Herostratus (talk) 19:01, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Collapsible Tables

I've been unsure whether I'm allowed to make tables collapsible. WP:COLLAPSE and MOS:COLLAPSE seem to indicate that collapsible tables are deprecated due to inaccessability for some users. The discussions that lead to my question are at the Podcasting WikiProject (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Podcasting#Lists_of_Episodes) and articles that I started split discussions for, such as Talk:Up_and_Vanished Talk:The_Adam_Buxton_Podcast. TipsyElephant (talk) 02:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

TipsyElephant, I think the main thrust of MOS:COLLAPSE is that pre-collapsed tables (as by mw-collapsed) are inaccessible to many mobile and low-bandwidth readers. Collapsible content in general doesn't seem to be deprecated. I think that accepted practice would be to remove the mw-collapsed from the table in The Adam Buxton Podcast, keeping mw-collapsible.

The other point MOS:COLLAPSE makes, in my reading, is that pre-collapsed content is accepted practice for certain items not critical to the article, such as supplemental details or information already in the text. I think the episode list is too pertinent for this rationale. – Anon423 (talk) 10:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@Anon423: for Up_and_Vanished is there a template I can use to collapse the tables without doing it by default/pre-collapsed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TipsyElephant (talk • contribs) 14:29, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

TipsyElephant, I don't know if there's a template but simply deleting mw-collapsed (while keeping mw-collapsible) from the start of the wikitable formatting works. I've gone ahead and just done it in this edit. – Anon423 (talk) 08:47, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

TipsyElephant, on further inspection for Up and Vanished, one problem is that the {{Episode table}} template doesn't support collapsing on its own, and unlike tables you can't simply edit the CSS classes within to add mw-collapsible. And the current solution on the page, the {{Collapse top}}/{{Collapse bottom}} template pair, appears designed for talk pages, not articles. It does support an |expand=yes parameter that allows the box to be expanded by default, which you might want to use. With that said, the collapse templates are not designed for articles, so maybe you could use plain HTML/CSS <div class="mw-collapsible"></div> tags. (I am not an expert, merely looking at documentation here and at Help:Collapsing.)

All my technical suggestions might be moot though, as I other episode lists I've seen around Wikipedia aren't collapsible at all. Maybe collapsible content is generally not a good idea for accessibility and technical reasons. – Anon423 (talk) 15:22, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Print

I want to print a graph that is part of a page. How do I do it?2A00:23C7:A606:1C00:1CD:770:FA4F:B7CA (talk) 07:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Which graph on which page using which browser? PrimeHunter (talk) 07:56, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

The quick and dirty way is to use your snipping tool.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:25, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Creating a page about my boss

Hi there, I wonder if someone could help me. I have been tasked with creating my new boss a wikipedia page. He is a relatively successful entrepreneur here in Scotland and is referenced in other pages without having a page himself (including Central FM). I have tried creating a page but it saying it is still a draft. Is this because it is going through an approval process, and if so, how long will this process take? Just so I can update him with what is going on.

Any feedback would be appreciated, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CentralFM (talk • contribs)

Hello, CentralFM. I'm afraid you and your boss have a fundamental misunderstanding about Wikipedia. If your boss meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability, then we could have an article about him. The article will not belong to him, will not be for his benefit, will not be under his control, will not necessarily say what he wants it to say, and should be based almost 100% on what people with no connection with him have chosen to publish about him, not on what he or his associates say or want to say. He and you will be strongly discouraged from editing that article directly, but instead should suggest edits you would like to see, using the edit request mechanism.

Having said all that, you are not prohibited from trying to create an article. about him. The steps you need to take are:

1. Rename your account (or, more easily, abandon it and create a new one). Accounts which appear from their name to be on behalf of an organisation are not permitted, and all accounts are personal. "JohnnyatCentralFM" would be OK.
2. Make the formal declaration required of you as a Paid editor.
3. Look for reliably published sources which have significant coverage of your boss. Ignore anything written by him or his associates, anything published by Central FM, anything based on a press release or interview, or anything which merely mentions him.
4. If you cannot find at least three such sources, tell him that the task he has given you is impossible, and spend your efforts somewhere else.
5. If you can find such sources, then you are ready to begin the extremely difficult task of writing an article about somebody you know. You will need to forget absolutely everything you know about him and the organisation, and write an article based only on what the independent sources say. You should have a look at MOS:BIO too.

You have done correctly to create a draft: I have added a header so that when you think it is ready, you can submit it for review. Be aware that on Wikipedia, everybody is a volunteer, and there is no deadline.

--ColinFine (talk) 14:32, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @CentralFM: Thank you for being upfront about this. Since your boss requested it, it falls under our guidelines of paid editing, which require you to make a formal disclosure. Please see WP:COIPAYDISCLOSE for how to do so, and make the appropriate disclosure before continuing to edit.

Once that is done, let us have a look at Draft:John Quinn (born 1952). The biggest problem right now is that we should only have articles about "notable" topics, which means roughly that we can find multiple sources that are simultaneously (1) independent of the subject, (2) reliable, and (3) deal with the subject at length. As of now, the draft contains only that source, which pretty clearly fails point (3) (John Quinn is mentioned only in passing; furthermore, it would not be a great source for the company itself, because routine newspaper coverage counts for little to meet point (3)).

If you find appropriate sources, you should add them to the article, and then turn to the second problem, which is the promotional tone. Honestly it is not that bad for an article created for pay, but there are still a few issues. For instance, Jointly they have taken revenue and listener figures to a[n un]precedented high is peacockery and should be replaced by something such as In [year], the revenue of the station was [X] with [Y] daily listeners. followed by a source. Once these problems are met, you will be able to submit it into the "approval process" (WP:AFC) where review can take anywhere between one day and multiple weeks.

If you cannot find any appropriate sources, you should stop working on the draft, because it is unlikely to ever be accepted. If your boss thinks you are lazy, you are welcome to show them the above exchange. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 14:34, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks very much, my boss certainly doesn't think that I am lazy, but thank you for the appropriate/support, I will make amendments to the more "promotional parts" to the current draft, both my boss and myself want the page to be fully fact driven. With regards to my account name, I will change it after this exchange. Over the next week or so, my boss is going to forward me more articles that help flesh out his profile in a more factual, and less promotional manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CentralFM (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your feedback and I will continue to look at any further amendments required to help the page be published/improved.

@CentralFM: Before you go much further please read Wikipedia:An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing and ask your boss to read it. I don't want you to get blamed if things don't go well. -Arch dude (talk) 15:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Need 0.5 acre for convert template

I need the spelling for Alexander_Purdie_(publisher)#Dwelling (first sentence) to read on a 0.5 acre lot. When I use the convert template it spells acres and is NOT what I want. Can an expert put into the convert template the parameter needed to have it spell acre with no "s" at the end. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:37, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@Doug Coldwell: Hi there! Instead of the template, you could simply write "on a half-acre (0.20 ha) lot." Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 14:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• Nope!!! In this case I am following instructions of an ongoing review, which recommends the template. If you will notice I previously did that writing you recommend, HOWEVER I must use the template -> and apparently for the template there is a parameter that can be added that WILL spell just acre. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@Doug Coldwell: OK, how about "on a {{convert|0.5|acre|ha|adj=on}} lot", which generates "on a 0.5-acre (0.20 ha) lot" ? GoingBatty (talk) 15:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) The parameter appears to be "|adj=on", which changed 0.5 acres to 0.5-acre (with a hyphen). Joseph2302 (talk) 15:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks GoingBatty and Joseph2302. You BOTH have been very helpful in improving the article.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:13, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Can't find my declined article

Hi. I recently submitted an article for consideration, which was declined by a Wikipedia editor. The title of the article is "Not Even Emily (Emily Fan)". If I am understanding correctly, the draft should still be held in some space on Wikipedia (besides my own sandbox.) I've looked for it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:AfC_submissions_declined_as_lacking_reliable_third-party_sources?from=No and here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Declined_AfC_submissions?from=No. But can't find it. Can anyone else find it and tell me where it is? Thank you. Greg Dahlen (talk) 15:56, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Still in your sandbox, I believe Greg Dahlen.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@Greg Dahlen Welcome to Tea House! It's here: User:Greg Dahlen/sandbox#Not Even Emily (Emily Fan), happy editing! Shushugah (he/him • talk) 16:00, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

You can copy and paste the relevant bits (minus the title which is already created) to this now Red Link User:Greg Dahlen/Not Even Emily (Emily Fan). If you need assistance, I am happy to directly move it for you, but it's better you try it yourself first! Good luck! ~ Shushugah (he/him • talk) 16:03, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Please do not copy and paste the information, simply move the page to retain the edit history. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:07, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} and Shushugah (he/him • talk). So are you saying you can see my sandbox? Yet when I go to other users's userpages, such as either of the two of you, I don't see a way to see their sandbox(es). Is it there, and I'm missing it?

If you can see my sandbox, can you edit it?

Do you know if the declined draft was in either of the lists I mentioned searching in my original post? If not, might you know why not?

Thanks, Greg Dahlen (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Greg Dahlen. All pages on Wikipedia are publically viewable, and the majority are editable by anybody - this is not just articles, but drafts, and, yes, pages in user space. It is customary not to edit pages in somebody else's user space without their permission, but there's no technical limitation on it. To find another user's (or your own) subpages, you can go to their user or user talk page and pick User Contributions (there are other ways to get there, but that's often easiest). THen either you can find the subpages they've created in their contributions, or there's a link "Subpages" at the bottom. --ColinFine (talk) 17:07, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Post nominals: Template:Small vs Template:Post-nominals

I came across Tikka Khan, and noticed that the post-nominals in the lead used Template:Small. I've usually seen post-nominals on Wikipedia use Template:Post-nominals, and on checking MOS:POSTNOM, couldn't find anything on changing one to the other. Is there any reason to change? INDT (talk) 16:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

My guess would be that whoever added them simply did not know about the template. I didn't until right now. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

On looking into it further, MOS:FONTSIZE states: "Editors should avoid manually inserting large and small fonts into prose. Increased and decreased font size should primarily be produced through automated facilities such as headings or through carefully designed templates". Based on this, I edited the aforementioned page, and will do so to others like it if I come across them. Also, Template:Post-nominals doesn't show up on the page preview when hovering over a wikilink, which does look nicer IMO. INDT (talk) 10:44, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Why didn't my proposed article disappear?

I initiated an article on Wikipedia, Tea dance (gay event). When it was still a draft, I got a notice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Greg_Dahlen#Your_draft_article,_Draft:Tea_dances_(gay_event) 12 October 2020 that it had been deleted for inactivity. Yet I think on 20 July 2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_dance_(gay_event)&oldid=1034523562, a user moved the draft article into the mainspace. So I'm wondering, if it was deleted in 2020, how was a user able to see it to move it into the mainspace in 2021? Greg Dahlen (talk) 16:38, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

It was never actually deleted - an edit was made [1], that stopped the deletion from happening. Then, when it was likely it would be deleted again for six months of inactivity, someone moved it to mainspace as a likely notable event. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:44, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

It looks like, according to the logs, it was deleted for inactivity in October of 2020, but Liz thought better of it and restored it a few minutes later. Several people then took over working on it and got it ready for mainspace. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 17:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Staveley FC 1927

Staveley won the byron cup in1927. Ernest (nudge Needham owned a winners medal. I can only assume he had some involvement. In the game. My grandfather owned one too. I'm wondering if there's any record of the full line up of the team.

It appears there are four different "Stavely FC"s. Staveley F.C., Staveley Miners Welfare F.C.Staveley Welfare F.C. and Staveley Works F.C., so we'd need to determine which one we're talking about as a first step. I'm afraid it is unlikely Wikipedia has a full team roster from that far back, but it's possible. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:40, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

This probably requires an expert football historian: the only mention of the Byron cup that I could immediately find online was to the effect that Chesterfield F.C. have one in their trophy cabinet. Per that article, they have also(?) won the Derbyshire Senior Cup, which article mentions that "Staveley" were its first winners in the 1883–4 season, and again in –85, –88 and –89 (plus being losing finalists in –86 and –88!). The article does not list the winners for –1897 to –1944 inclusive.

I wonder if "Byron cup" was an older/alternative name for this competition? I suppose someone at Chesterfield would be able to tell us. I note that it's not listed in Category:Defunct football cup competitions in England (or the corresponding Category:Football cup competitions in England). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.2 (talk) 18:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Notability of award

I was looking at Rabindra Puraskar, the article claims that it "is the highest honorary literary award given in the Indian state of West Bengal." I have been unable to find a specific notability guideline for awards and this fails GNG. To start with, the article cites no valid sources – of the four cited three do not exist and one is a link to one of the awardee's personal website. I have tried Googling "Rabindra Puraskar" in both English and Bengali and zero reliable sources have come up. The award may exist but it clearly isn't notable enough or the "highest" literary honor. 2405:201:4013:80F5:B187:1062:5D0:21A1 (talk) 21:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

If someone can also check Upendranath Bhattacharya, which seems to derive it's notability from being a recipient of the above award, again with no supporting sources. 2405:201:4013:80F5:B187:1062:5D0:21A1 (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)