Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2023 August 5

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August 5

Eton College

ref numbers 29 and 32 is all wrong - please fix if able and leave in quote. Thank you 175.38.42.62 (talk) 05:09, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello Western Australia! It's hardly "all wrong". It merely says "date=Copyright © 2023". All you need do is remove "Copyright ©" from this. (If you have some problem making this simple edit, please describe what the problem is.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:33, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks but ref fumber 29 should have apublisher too - Oxford university. Please help if able.175.38.42.62 (talk) 05:35, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

If the publisher is Oxford University, then add "publisher=Oxford University", of course separated by a single "|" from both what precedes it and what follows it. (If you have some problem making this simple edit, please describe what the problem is.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Why CAPTCHA to show changes and show previews?

What is going on with Wikipedia that I need to solve CAPTCHAs to show changes and show previews? Are we under attack? 2001:1C06:19CA:D600:295A:FB7C:2359:62D (talk) 05:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

See #Why_does_wikipedia_now_have_CAPTCHA, above. -- Hoary (talk) 05:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

an Emmanuel Daniel page has disappeared

Hello,

There is currently only one page about Emmanuel Daniel (individual's name); currently, this is the Nigerian footballer, but the disambiguation about the Malaysian publisher of the same name has disappeared. What is the reason for this? Can the page about the Malaysian publisher be reinstated? Citizenzen (talk) 06:48, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emmanuel Daniel. Closed as delete, and from a look at the comments, a deletion review would be unlikely to succeed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The deleted article was about an "entrepreneur, author and ... influencer", not a publisher. There's also a British construction engineer. I don't see evidence that any of them is notable. Maproom (talk) 07:25, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Maproom, I quote this: "Emmanuel Daniel is an entrepreneur, author and top influencer in the finance industry. Daniel founded The Asian Banker in Singapore in September 1996 as a publisher of research and benchmarking, and events serving the financial services industry." Et cetera et cetera. So the article claimed that he was all these things. No comment from me on notability. (After all, I'm not a top editor.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:46, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Link to Specific Comment in Archived Talk?

Besides Special:Diff, is there another way to create a wikilink or hyperlink to a specific comment in an archived talk/discussion topic? StellarHalo (talk) 07:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

One can create a link to a specific sub-section of a thread like this: Link to Specific Comment in Archived Talk? The same can be done for an archived discussion. I do not know how to point to a specific clause or sentence within a discussion without quoting the passage in question (e.g., Besides Special:Diff, is there another way to create a wikilink or hyperlink to a specific comment in an archived talk/discussion topic?). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:46, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmm...It seems that the only way to do this would be to insert an anchor directly at the comment but that would never be appropriate for a talk page. StellarHalo (talk) 09:08, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@StellarHalo: MediaWiki has already done it automatically for some time and even highlights the linked comment: Wikipedia:Help_desk#c-StellarHalo-20230805090800-Cl3phact0-20230805084600. The anchor is in the generated HTML (maybe not in all circumstances) and not the wikitext. I don't know how stable it is. MediaWiki uses it in some automatically generated links but MediaWiki might change. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:58, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

This is exactly what I am looking for. How do I view the generated HTML for a comment? StellarHalo (talk) 13:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@StellarHalo: Use a browser feature called view source, inspect or something like that. It varies by browser but you probably get a relevant option by right-clicking the rendered page with a desktop browser. Mobile devices may be harder. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:50, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@StellarHalo: I did what @PrimeHunter suggested for your comment above. It is prefixed with a <span> tag with an identifier: <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-StellarHalo-20230805131100-PrimeHunter-20230805125800"></span>. Using that identifier as a URL fragment — [[#c-StellarHalo-20230805131100-PrimeHunter-20230805125800]] — gives this link. This will no longer work when this conversation is archived: the fragment will need prefixing with whatever path the archive has. For example, your conversation in November 2022 can be linked to by [[Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2022_November_2#c-StellarHalo-20221102055700-Cullen328-20221102051500"]] which takes you here. Bazza (talk) 16:59, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your help. StellarHalo (talk) 20:08, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hyphen vs. En dash usage (Wikidata)?

There is a conversation on Wikidata:Project chat that may be of interest to the en:wp community. (I'm not sure that this is the right thread for this topic – please correct if there's a better place to post this information.) Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:33, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Cl3phact0: Since this appears to be MOS related, you probably should post something about it at WT:MOS since this "Help desk" is more for asking questions about Wikipedia than for posting notifications about on-going discussions related to Wikipedia. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Marchjuly, I've added links to: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Current -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 11:33, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Access coding sites

how can I access coding sites in wikipedia Diyooz (talk) 09:33, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

We don't have coding sites, but you might want to take a look at Wikipedia:Phabricator. Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:03, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Diyooz: It may depend on what you mean by coding sites. If you clarify what you want then maybe we can help more. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Eton College

In the 19th century section of this article, I added a file of an old photo - sepia tone/colour - 1890s of Alan Cecil Lupton at Eton. Please get the link on Alan to go DIRECTLY to his section on the Lupton family page. I cannot do this. Thank you. 175.38.42.62 (talk) 12:58, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the photo. Neither of the people mentioned in the caption is even mentioned in the text, so the picture adds absolutely nothing to an article about the school. ColinFine (talk) 14:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

ColinFine, a Vodafone Australia customer has readded the photo, together with: In 1891, Science Master Dr Philip Herbert Carpenter died at Eton from an accidental overdose when he was House Master to Alan Cecil Lupton whose forebear was Eton Provost Roger Lupton and distant cousin was Catherine, Princess of Wales. This puzzles me, given that the article is, or purports to be, about Eton. I don't think we learn something about Eton from any of the following:

• The sadly deceased Carpenter "was House Master to Alan Cecil Lupton".
• Some "forebear" of Alan Cecil Lupton was Eton Provost Roger Lupton.
• Some distant cousin of Alan Cecil Lupton is/was Catherine, Princess of Wales.

Am I blind to its significance? -- Hoary (talk) 08:44, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

No, I agree with you, and I have raised it on the talk page.

ColinFine (talk) 17:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I have just removed a similarly irrelevant photo of a relative of Catherine Princess of Wales from St Anne's College, Oxford. TSventon (talk) 17:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

searching for non-alphanumeric character

Basically I am trying to find "£" in certain articles so I can add the wikilink £. To do this I put this into search: [ "£" deepcat:"Port Vale F.C." ] But nothing comes up. Any ideas how to get round the search engine ignoring the £ character? EchetusXe 13:59, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%2F%C2%A3%2F+deepcat%3A%22Port+Vale+F.C.%22&ns0=1

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I suggest reading MOS:UNDERLINK and MOS:OVERLINK. Personally, I don't think that wholesale linking of "£" would help readers. TSventon (talk) 14:14, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Here are some articles about Gabon that have the pound sterling sign. Mathglot (talk) 00:43, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh sorry, didn't notice Trappist already said that. Mathglot (talk) 00:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

URL with a ?disabled back button

Hello. Today, I inserted a link into the article Paul Martin (illustrator). It's at reference 307 (click "p. 11"). It's a good link to a newspaper that shows an illustration by the artist. The problem is that after one clicks on that link, they can't hit the upper-left go-back arrow on their computer screen, and return to the WP article. But rather get into a loop. (Hence, one would have to close that page, and return to the article via WP's home page.) Should the URL be deleted or left in place? It's really just a nuisance if left in place. I don't know any way around this. Thanks, JimPercy (talk) 17:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Mayhaps it's just your setup; your browser, your operating system, etc. Back-button works for me (win 10; chrome). I find that the claim "Martin's stable illustration is highlighted" is not true. The displayed Fall River Herald News page is positioned at the top of page 11; there is no highlighting. It would be best for your citation to name the article as it appears in the newspaper rather than rely on some sort of apparently inconsistent techno-magical-highlighting that may or may not be available to all readers.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the word "highlighted" can be tricky. I meant it's a large picture, hence, highlighted. I'll reword it since that word can seem opinionated. I actually only stuck in that word (and "is")

to make it a complete sentence, anyway. JimPercy (talk) 20:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

PS. Okay, I understand the word "highlighted" can be understood in the way you described. I just wasn't thinking that way. JimPercy (talk) 21:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@JimPercy: that is an interaction between your browser and that web site and there is nothing specific that Wikipedia can do about it. I see the same behavior using Firefox on Ubuntu. If you look at the browser "back" list, (right click on the "back" button on most browsers) you will see two entries, not just one. because of the way the web site jumped around to display the page. When you just left-click on "back", it jumps to the prior entry on the same page, and that, which then jumps you back to the requested page. You quick workaround is to select the Wikipedia page on the "back" list after right-clicking. A deep analysis of the very complicated action list embedded in the URL might or might not allow you to find a simpler URL that avoids this problem, but it's just not worth it. Many web sites specifically try to bounce you back to a top-level page if you use a deep link. -Arch dude (talk) 20:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

My browser is Firefox. So some browsers will go into that loop and others will go back to the article (after clicking the go-back arrow). Okay, so I probably will then just delete the URL. Maybe just give the directions to the 1927 newspaper. I sort of stated that at the end of the reference with the wording "Digital Archives of the Fall River Public Library." Maybe I will just type in front of those words something like, Can be viewed at "Digital Archives ... Library." PS. I will first try the "workaround" you mentioned. Thanks both. JimPercy (talk) 20:46, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Update. Okay, I right-clicked the arrow and saw "Wikipedia" in the drop-down, and that worked. But I reckon lots of people would get into a loop and end up closing the page. I deleted the URL and changed a few words so someone could figure out the location, about thirty minutes ago. I reckon that should take care of it. Thanks again. JimPercy (talk) 21:46, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Page move and subsequent content replacement - flow-on effects for other wikipedias?

Hi all, "Travelling North" was initially a stage play written in 1989 by noted Australian author, David Williamson. 8 years later it was used as the basis for a movie of the same title. Until recently, Wikipedia had an article "Travelling North" which referred to the movie only (although there was one paragraph describing the play on which the movie was based); in 2020 I floated the idea of using that page for the play instead, and creating a new page "Travelling North (film)" for the movie by moving the contents of the original page there, to which no-one has objected; so 3 years later and a couple of days ago, I did that move, and then created new content for the original play (in effect a new page) at the original location "Travelling North". I note now that there has been a new Wikidata item created (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q121175772) for the stage play, and the previous wikidata item for the film, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7836079 has followed my page move and now correctly points to the new page at Travelling North (film).

I also have taken appropriate efforts to assess and, as needed, modify all of the 100+ previous wikilinks to the original "Travelling North Page", which were an undifferentiated mixture of references to both the play and the film, so that they now point to the correct targets.

I note however that there are 2 translated versions of the original page for the film, now linked from the new location and without the name change, in Welsh (cy:Travelling North) and French (fr:Travelling North), in other words they are now out of synch in various respects (in particular, their title, possibly other aspects I am unaware of) following my page move. Is this something I should be concerned about? Thanks in advance - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 19:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

No, if I understand you correctly. The French article remains Travelling North, is still about the film, and still links through d:Q7836079 to en-wiki Travelling North (film), so everything is in sync. Fr-wiki doesn't have the exact same pagename as en-wiki, because they don't need disambiguation where en-wiki does. So, if your question was basically, "should fr-wiki's title now add parenthetical disambiguation in the form of '(film)' to their title", there is no disambiguation needed there as it is here. If your question was something else, can you explain? I didn't look at the Welsh situation, but I imagine it's the same thing. Mathglot (talk) 00:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Mathglot... actually I am not sure I really understand the situation myself!! I am imagining that the French and Welsh wiki pages were essentially translations of whatever was on the English page at the time the translations were made - but could of course be wrong. So at some point, maybe they might automatically update from -en wiki content, at which point 2 pages which were previously about the film might automatically become about the play without manual intervention; and there will be no pages specifically about the film unless those are then created to replicate my move. I must confess I am stumbling about here in waters I do not really understand - just wondering if by my action(s) on English Wikipedia, I have inadvertently created some problems for the others, which I or someone else should then address. Happy to be advised further. Tony 1212 (talk) 03:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

If by the phrase, "maybe they might automatically update from -en wiki content", you mean there's some kind of automatic process that watches articles in one language Wikipedia, and automatically updates articles linked through Wikidata in some other language, there is no such process. Separate Wikipedias have their own rules and their own databases, and none of your actions here have any effect on the other ones, so you needn't worry. But thanks for raising the question and checking in about it; that is appreciated. Mathglot (talk) 05:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks again @Mathglot for the additional info. Maybe I will then just add a note (in English, unfortunately) to the talk pages of the other wikis to explain what I have done, in case anyone wants to take additional action to keep them in step... Tony 1212 (talk) 07:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Tony 1212, each language version of Wikipedia is a separate and autonomous project with its own policies and guidelines. There is no expectation that editors will try to "keep things in step" between language versions, and the English version, although the largest, enjoys no special status in comparison to the others. Cullen328 (talk) 07:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot No worries (as we say here in Australia). Nevertheless I do feel a little responsibility for unintended flow-on effects of my actions, so have left relevant messages on the equivalent article talk pages on the other language wikipedias, see fr:Discussion:Travelling North#Change of name to equivalent page on English Wikipedia and https://cy.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sgwrs%3ATravelling_North#Change_of_name_to_equivalent_page_on_English_Wikipedia ... Now I will sleep more soundly at night I feel sure! Cheers Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 07:19, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Tony, tbh, that's probably overkill, and may confuse more than it helps (or possibly even touch a nerve, as other Wikipedias are quite aware that en-wiki is the elephant in the room, stomping all over the place). Rest assured that you don't need to notify them in the future, if a similar situation arises again. Happy editing! Mathglot (talk) 07:30, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

We will see I guess... my comments could legitimately come under the heading of "suggestions for improvements to this page" on the other wikis I feel (could always delete them if folk feel offended by them). Thanks again for your interest and assistance. Cheers Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 18:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Correction of Company Name & Logo

Hello,

I have to make a correct of our company name on Wikipedia. How do I edit the main title? It's corrected and updated accordingly in the copy itself.

How do I remove an old logo and replace with a current logo?

Many thanks CargilfieldMktg (talk) 20:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

OP blocked. 331dot (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Meaning of phrase

Hi Folks!! Does anybody know what "admits of various readings" mean. I found it in a document, searched for it and couldn't see anything. scope_creep^Talk 23:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It means "Can be interpreted in different ways". I found the phrase in William Penn's The Great Case of Liberty of Conscience, apparently written in around 1670, so it is old fashioned English. TSventon (talk) 00:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with TSventon's explanation. But I regard it as standard English, not as old-fashioned – and I rarely read anything written before 1800. Maproom (talk) 07:23, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Maproom, but I've heard it spoken, possibly as a stylistic archaism, in (at a guess) the 1980s. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Folks. That makes better sense now. scope_creep^Talk 10:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I probably should have said formal English rather than old fashioned. "admits of" can be found in online dictionaries. TSventon (talk) 10:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

scope_creep, two examples of "admits of" in an academic source published in 2008 and extensively revised just three years ago:

• This particular deduction is perfect because its validity needs no proof, and perhaps because it admits of no proof either: any proof would seem to rely ultimately upon the intuitive validity of this sort of argument.
• A bronze statue admits of various different dimensions of explanation. If we were to confront a statue without first recognizing what it was, we would, thinks Aristotle, spontaneously ask a series of questions about it.

-- Hoary (talk) 02:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

It was from a document, "Practising on principle : Joseph Lister and the germ theories of disease" Chapter 6 by Christopher Lawrence and Richard Dixey 1992. A modern context as well. It is really curious that I've not read it or heard it anywhere up until now and thought I was pretty widely read. Perhaps its not used much in the uk. I'll start using it now. scope_creep^Talk 08:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The Corpus of Global Web-Based English shows 96 examples of the phrase "admits of" from US sources, and 53 from UK sources (along with 39 from Canada and 54 from Australia). So it may be somewhat more common in the US, but not hugely so. CodeTalker (talk) 17:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

CodeTalker, that's a good source, but we have to be careful with such statistics from corpora. In "admits of various readings", the preposition phrase is a complement of admits: try switching the latter to says, and the result is plain ungrammatical. But among GWBE's tokens is "'I have to take some responsibility,' he admits of his support for Obama as we sit in his book-lined office." [I've tinkered with the punctuation.] Here, says can replace admits, as "of his support for Obama" is a mere adjunct. (Among other issues: separate websites may simply reproduce each other's content: See for example how the string "His statement then admits of but one explanation" appears twice, within identical text.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)