Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 May 9

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May 9

Al-Qaeda / bin Laden Manifesto

I've heard repeated mention of an Al-Qaeda / bin Laden Manifesto which lists as its third charge against the West the independence of East Timor. What is this manifesto and where can it be read? 58.147.52.162 (talk) 00:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, when I hear "Bin Laden manifesto" my first thought is his 1998 "War Against Jews and Crusaders" fatwa. However, that document doesn't say anything about East Timor. This message does, but not as the third in a list of charges against the West. Are either one of those what you are looking for? --Cerebellum (talk) 02:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. The first time I heard of it was in Christopher Hitchens' answer to a question at the Freedom from Religion Foundation here at 0:30 (full presentation starts [here]):

What are some of the items in the Bin Laden / Al-Qaeda manifesto? Well, oddly enough -- and this was to my surprise; I thought it would be lower down -- item three in the charge against the West is that it reversed course on East Timor, tried to undo the genocide, brought East Timor to a referendum on independence, sent Sérgio Vieira de Mello, one of the greatest UN civil servants, to East Timor to supervise the transition to independence and the election and made East Timor the newest member of the UN. Bin Laden says, "for this we will never forgive the Christian Crusaders and their imperialist friends. They took away a republic from a Muslim land."

I was hoping to read the full source he was paraphrasing. 58.147.52.162 (talk) 14:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I Saw that video and searched for the manifesto myself. I believe I have found it, although East Timor is actually the fifth point that Bin Laden mentions. You can find it here.

Communist founders in London

Did Stalin really visit London, as this article suggests? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8658408.stm Could Marx and Lenin both speak english, as their using of the British Museum would imply? Engels ran a factory in Manchester I think and probably visited London - is there any founder of communism who had not lived in or at least visited London? What was the attraction of London to them? Thanks 92.24.17.70 (talk) 00:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

[I am pretty sure, that Engels' family owned textile factories works (in Wuppertal) and Engels did work "nine to five" in those until retirement, and also for a time in Manchester. He did, as far as I know, not run them. Both E and M, regardless of what one may think about their philosophy, were not "challenged" linguistically - M. wrote and spoke? a German/English mishmash (lots of code-switching), but both read books in tons of languages and wrote in some.--Radh (talk) 06:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)]

Stalin, along with Lenin, Trotsky, Gorky and others, visited London in 1907 (not 1905) for the 5th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. I think this was Stalin's only trip to Britain although Lenin traveled there a number of times. Stalin first met Lenin in Tampere in December 1905.--Cam (talk) 03:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As for other "founders of Communism", I don't think Mao Zedong probably ever visited London. Ho Chi Minh, however, did spend some time working in a London pub, which is a pretty amusing coincidence. I don't see any obvious evidence of Fidel Castro having visited London but I wouldn't rule it out (he did travel a bit before the Cuban Revolution). --Mr.98 (talk) 15:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

To answer the "attractiveness of London", remember that pre-WWI, London was likely the most affluent city in Europe, maybe even the world, having largely dodged most of the major continental wars that ran across Europe in the 19th century (Revolutions of 1848, Franco-Prussian War, etc) and Britain was, without a doubt, the pre-eminent world power prior to WWI (see Pax Britannica). Britain was a western liberal society, which valued freedom of expression and intellectualism. Also remember that prior to the 1920's, Comminism was a harmless pursuit of ivory-tower academics and intellectuals, not an oppressive totaliarian regime. Londoners, even if they knew that the major players in Russia's communist movement were hanging out among them, probably wouldn't have seen it as a big deal. --Jayron32 03:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Err, it's not true it was just for ivory tower academics pre-1920s. It was also something pursued by working class agitators, labor unions, and etc. Of which there were many in London. It would have been a pretty natural place for a budding communist to go for awhile. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

London was very much one of the epicentres of revolutionary activity in the latter-half of the 19th century and in the beginning of the 20th. Many organizations from the continent established their presence in the city, to conduct meetings and publish press outlets there. See for example the article on the Hebrew Socialist Union in London, seemingly the first Jewish socialist organization in the world. --Soman (talk) 15:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I would have thought Paris to have been the epicentre of revolutionary ativity considering it had given birth to the Communards, who had allegedly inspired anarchists everywhere, especially Russia.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Paris in the late-19th century would have been a more turbulent environment for the visiting communist than would have been London. (See French Third Republic.) It certainly was a hub of socialist/radical/anarchist activity. I'm not clear how much of a hub it would have been for international rallying—it seems like most of what was going on was specifically related to change in France. But I don't really know too much about France in this period, so I am admittedly out of my depth. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

@London, as a paradise for revolutionaries ca. 1848: see Alexander Herzen, perhaps via E. H. Carr's famous book on him.--Radh (talk) 06:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

William Robson translation of The Three Musketeers

William Robson's translation is not mentioned in the Editions section of The Three Musketeers. Though I don't think it was available since the 60s/70s, Borders Bookstores now sells their self-published edition using Robson's translation, which is both ornate and flowery and beautiful to read. But the Wikipedia article brings up a good point: omissions of language to comply with standards of the time. I've never been able to figure out when Robson's translation was written and if, in fact, it is abridged in parts. I may be forced to read Richard Pevear's translation, but I'm worried about its use of modern phrases. Does anyone here have any information on Robson's translation? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 01:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

According to this, William Robson's translation was published in 1853. According to this guy, Robson's translation is not "absurdly bowdlerized." Hope that helps. --Cerebellum (talk) 02:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely wonderful. Translation based on Dumas's own revised version, and spot-checked against Pevear, though I may have to double-check a few passages of my own. It never occurred to me that Google Books could be used in such a fashion. You've therefore answered my question and taught me something new. Thank you so much! – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 03:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Glad I could help. : ) --Cerebellum (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Service of process

Removed. We cannot give legal advice here. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 21:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Homelessness resources in London

My 2nd favorite blogger in London, Penny Red, has just announced her impending homelessness. She's an early-20s smoker on this year's Orwell Prize short list. What resources are available for homeless women in London?

http://www.homelesslondon.org/details.asp?id=LP381

Are there any Londoners here with social networks capable of taking on a brilliant starving artist type as a couch surfer? 208.54.5.60 (talk) 03:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Is there any reason why she cannot rent a flat please? Even if she has no income, then she should get Housing Benefit (and other benefit money also) which should be enough to rent a cheap and/or small flat or at least a room. Many landlords are acustomed to having tenants on benefits. See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/On_a_low_income/DG_10018926 You can find out how much rent she would get paid here https://lha-direct.voa.gov.uk/Secure/Default.aspx For central London she should get paid at least £141 a week for the rent alone, plus other money to live off also. Some tenants of mine who live entirely off benefits just rung me up from Spain, where they are on holiday! 78.146.175.181 (talk) 11:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, people with no money in the UK are not forced to be homeless? It's been more than 10 years since I've visited, but I guess living in the US is actually more different than I ever imagined. 71.198.176.22 (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

No they are not. They do not starve or need medical treatment or go around in rags either. In my youth I spent some time living off benefits - due to enjoying the leisure time and freedom I have to admit - and my standard of living was like that of being a student. I did have enough money left over to spend on other things apart from the necessities. But if you spend your benefits on alcohol, drugs, smoking, or owning a car, then you will be short of money. 84.13.53.169 (talk) 12:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Would your youth have been in the '80s, by any chance? 86.180.48.37 (talk) 23:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Shelter are your go-to for housing advice: try here. She should phone their helpline on 0808 800 4444 straight away: they aim to help people avoid becoming homeless, as well as helping with access to emergency housing and more long-term solutions. If she hasn't actually left her home yet, they may be able to help her avoid that. For more detailed, general advice that might help deal with the underlying problems, she should contact her local Citizens Advice Bureau: here's the site that should help her find her nearest. This is something that you can't do for her: she has to speak to these people herself. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 21:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that you direct the person to The Manna Centre, one in South London near London Bridge and one in North London, they are drop-in-day Centres. From there advice is readily available and direction to suitable accommodation. Clothes and other necessities, clinics provided by local Councils, etc. Send me a note on my talk page if you need phone nos. etc. MacOfJesus (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Bernard Werber - 『Paradis sur Mesure』

Could anybody please tell me the names of the 17 chapters of Bernard Werber's novel 『Paradis sur Mesure』? both in French and in English? i've tried looking everywhere but couldn't find anything. thanks!!Johnnyboi7 (talk) 07:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The best I could do was this page from the Korean wikipedia, which has a list of the chapter titles in Korean. Google Translate gives this list of English titles, which unfortunately is pretty garbled. I'm not even going to attempt a French version.

"environmental destruction offender hanged," (a likely future) "Truth in the fingers" (short story interlude) "respecting the issue" (likely the past) "Flowers Sex" (a likely future) "lost civilization" (a likely future) "Murder in the Mist" (likely the past) "Tomorrow the girls" (a likely future) "Movie Masters" (a likely future) "Alignment of Paradise" (a likely future) "Sparrow ruin others" (likely the memories) "where jokes are born" (a likely future) "the teeth of the earth" (likely the past) "You're going to like" (a likely future) "brand war" (a likely future) "Scarecrow strategy" (likely the past) "Anti - Proverbs" (short story interlude) "Love in Atlantis" (likely the past)

Cheers, --Cerebellum (talk) 14:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

In French:

1. Et l'on pendra tous les pollueurs
2. Intermède : la vérité est dans le doigt
3. Question de respect
4. Le sexe des fleurs
5. Civilisation disparue
6. Meurtre dans la brume
7. Demain les femmes
8. Paradis sur mesure
9. Le maître du cinéma
10. Le moineau destructeur
11. Là où naissent les blagues
12. Les dents de la terre
13. Ça va vous plaire
14. La guerre des marques
15. La stratégie de l'épouvantail
16. Anti-proverbe
17. Un amour en Atlantide

AldoSyrt (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Sousa marches during religious ceremonies

I'm curious as to why John Philip Sousa military marches are played by bands during Catholic religious processions here in Italy? Stars and Stripes Forever is a particular favourite. When I queried my parish priest, he just looked blank. Jesus is supposedly a man of peace, yet the marches glorify warfare and make one eager to rush off to the nearest US Marines recruiting office than meditate upon God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Marches glorify warfare ╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 09:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, that my personal opinion, but its lyrics are martial (see article: Stars and Stripes Forever), and while patriotic also militant. Anyway, the marches are certainly not what anybody could possibly describe as dirges or hymns.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It's possible that someone just liked the tune and decided to claim it for another use. Consider What Child is This?, which is set to the tune of Greensleeves. I want to say that using any kind of march for that purpose is strange, but it occurs to me that some of the hymns Martin Luther wrote have a martial tone, as does Onward, Christian Soldiers. Paul (Stansifer) 12:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Then there's the Battle Hymn of the Republic which is surely an oxymoron if there ever was!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

March tunes in general, by matching the rhythm of (usually brisk) walking (obviously), both encourage and usefully co-ordinate the walking of a collection of people, which may be as desirable for a religious procession as for a body of military persons, though the two categories may overlap: the Christian Church has had quasi-military overtones for most of its existence right up to the present day; think of concepts and organisations such as "the Church Militant", the Salvation Army, etc. The Battle Hymn of the Republic, for example, was in my (English) Methodist hymnal at school and had no particular US or literal military associations for us.

Those who choose the musical programme for a particular religious event may well be interested in using works most musically various and interesting for the players, and uplifting or otherwise emotionally appropriate for the other participants and audience (and with scores for the band readily available), without worrying so much about the possible associations of lyrics which will not be sung and which, as in Jeanne Boleyn's example, are in a language foreign to most of those present. In the converse case of actual military marching displays (several of which I have attended, being an Army brat) non-military march-time pieces are often used - the theme tune of Thunderbirds has long been popular, for example. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The month March derives its name from Mars, the Roman god of war. I imagine the word march, for the music genre, also gets its name from the same source.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I would have guessed a similar association, but according to the Oxford English Dictionary the musical form's name derives, as one would expect, from the verb describing a manner of walking (often but by no means always done in a military context), but the verb itself derived in the 12-century from the French verb marcher which meant to tread or trample, and

"the etymology of French marcher is obscure; the prevailing view is that the oldest recorded sense 'to trample' was developed from a sense 'to hammer', and that the word represents a Gaulish Latin marcare, from Latin marcus hammer."

Thus, although (as the OED says elsewhere) various European cognates of 'march' (verb) came quite early to be associated with an often military style of walking, the word's origin is non-military and unconnected with Mars (whose name derives from archaic Latin Mavors, probably cognate with Oscan Mamers). Isn't etymology fascinating? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree! Jeanne, go and tell him. For if I were there listening I would. Your phrase comes to mind: "Jesus, wept", a quote from Saint John's Gospel, over the dead Lazurus. MacOfJesus (talk) 23:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

To me, there is nothing spiritual about Sousa marches. I cannot imagine Stars and Stripes Forever inspiring a person to do anything but march in time under the Old Glory dreaming of battles fought and won in foreign lands. Oh BTW, Jesus wept is an old Irish expression used to express disbelief, disgust, outrage or surprise. I use it all the time.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:26, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I have heard the expression before, but it does come from Saint John. Jesus also wept over Jerusalem (Saint John again). As you say Military Marches have no place in a Church setting! We agree! MacOfJesus (talk) 08:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not complaining about the use of Sousa marches in processions; in point of fact, they jazz them up and get the faithful to walk at a quicker pace. I was just curious-and amused. Alas, my former parish priest had not an ounce of humour, or knowledge of American history, I daresay.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:32, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

When I was in Lourdes last, we had a trip up to Gavannie a little village up in the mountains, where they still have snow in May/June. As we were going up near Pont Napoleon a shop of Alpine gear was meant to be playing Alpine Folk Music, instead they were playing Irish Ceili Music; The Fureys & Davie Arthur! How out of place is that? Maybe it is just me? When we said something they changed it to pure Ceili Band Music! MacOfJesus (talk) 16:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I have a Davy Arthur story to tell but this isn't the place for it. It hard to accociate him with Lourdes.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:16, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

This was 20miles into the mountains on Pont Napoleon many miles from Dublin among all the Alpine knitware. The natives say that if you were to throw youself off Pont Napoleon you would have time to say the full Confiteor before you hit the ground! But nobody can be sure for certain. I was priveleged in being at Davy A. & The Fureys last concert! But to get back to the original point; I would react strongly to bad Liturgy and untimely music. MacOfJesus (talk) 21:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

"Know Thyself" by Dr John Arbuthnot

Resolved

I have been asked by a freemason if I know about this poem which he says is supposed to be written by Dr. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735). It rings a bell but not in connection with the polymath. Can anybody help please? Kittybrewster ☎ 09:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Got it. Alexander Pope. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Twelve Caesars

Petrarch researched and wrote "bios" on Julius Caesar and other famous ancient Romans in his Illustrious Men. Is it quite likely he would have reseached and studied all of The Twelve Caesars? Would he have likely obtained the information on the 12 Caesars from Livy or Suetonius or both or other sources?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 10:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

He got it directly from Suetonius. See this book, for example, or this one. Basically Petrarch knew Suetonius very well and intentionally copied him. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Great answers Adam Bishop. Very helpful. Thank you very much.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 10:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Forbidden artifacts

I was reading the article regarding the Imperial Regalia of Japan, which is about three ancient mythical objects (a sword, a mirror and a jewel) that can be seen, more or less, only by the Emperor of Japan and few other very selected people. Are there any other example of important historical artifacts known to exist, officially stated as real, but forbidden to almost every person in the world (no allowed scientific/archaelogical studies, no photos, no pictures...)?--151.51.60.165 (talk) 11:23, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The one that springs instantly to my mind is the Ark of the Covenant which is claimed to be held in Ethiopia. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Is it Ethiopia? I always thought stuff like that was in the Vatican, and only Robert Langdon is allowed in there. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church claims to have the original ark at the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion. Only a single monk is allowed to see it. Naturally, most historians doubt that if there's any relic at all, it's truly the original Ark. See this article. Replicas of the Ark, known as tabots, are used widely by the Ethiopian's. Buddy431 (talk) 20:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Museum of Anthropology at UBC holds at least one artefact which can only be viewed by the holy men of the First Nations tribe which created it - even in the reference collection, its presence is signified by an explanatory note, rather than the artefact itself, which is in a sealed box in the store. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This reminds me of a picture I saw about 25 years ago at the National Gallery of Victoria - or, rather, didn't see. I was just browsing away, when I came across an object that seemed to be a small canvas covered by a sheet of white material. The description said something about the artist not wanting the world to see his work, so he displays it covered up. The NGV was wanting its patrons to accept that there was something of artistic merit beneath the cover, but in keeping with the artist's wishes, was not allowing them to actually see it. We just had to take the NGV's word for it. I still wonder what the point of that exercise was. A much better idea would have been to say to the artist "Of course we respect your wish not to display your work. When and if you ever change your mind, give us a call and we'll see if we're interested in showing any of them - but that will mean showing them and not taking up valuable wall space with covered works that nobody can see". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't the DPRK have a whole host of niknacks that they keep under lock and key for only Kim Jong-Il to see? Or that citizens are only allowed to see once in their life? I recall seeing something like that on the Vice Guide to North Korea... flagitious 06:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flagitious (talk • contribs)

John Wilkes Booth's fiancée

Resolved

Does anyone have an exact birthdate and death date for Lucy Lambert Hale, the secret fiancée of John Wilkes Booth? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

shhh! it's supposed to be a secret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.124.197 (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's out now!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

She died October 15, 1915.[1] I haven't found a birthdate more precise than the year 1842.--Cam (talk) 18:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Aha! Her gravestone gives her birth as Jan. 1. 1841.--Cam (talk) 18:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This is great. Thanks a million for your help.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The information you provided came in handy for Lucy Lambert Hale's article which I created this morning. Thanks again. The reference desk has come through yet again!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable Virginia Politicians

Does anyone know of any notable Virginia politicians from before the civil war? The politicians must of have been born in Virginia ex. James Madison. 72.94.161.188 (talk) 17:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Why must Virginian politicians be born in Virginia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.124.197 (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Patrick Henry, Nathaniel Bacon, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, John Tyler, John Johns Trigg, etc. Oh, there are so many. Why not look up the category: Politicians from Virginia? I'm sure there's a list somewhere!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Here it is:List of people from Virginia--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! That should be enough!72.94.161.188 (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Does abject poverty exist in Western Europe and/or the USA?

For the purpose of this question, "abject poverty" is loosely defined as "malnutrition owing to poverty". If not, when (abouts) would it have ended?--Leon (talk) 17:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd say the majority of homeless people should fit into a category as such, and many of these people exhibit malnutrition. You can find them living on the New York City Transit Authority trains and in places like Central Park. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Whilst I did say Western Europe and the USA, and thus am not disagreeing with you immediately, in Southern England more specifically that is not my observation. I do no observe them suffering malnutrition, or even anything very close.

If "owing to poverty" is preface by "directly" (meaning they have neither the capital nor the social support to feed themselves healthily), does the picture change? If "malnutrition" is replaced with "starvation", does it change again?--Leon (talk) 17:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I have seen reports that there are places in the UK where some people are unable to afford decent food and exhibit a degree of malnutrition as a result. Unfortunately my Google-fu has deserted me and I can't find the article on the BBC website regarding this. Most UK cases of malnutrition appear to occur among those who have health problems [2]. This report also claims that British teenagers are at risk of malnutrition, but mainly because of poor food choices. [3] --TammyMoet (talk) 18:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Malnutrition is certainly present in the United States. Depending on how you draw the line, the number of malnourished people in the US is between 17 million and 49 million, according to the Food Research and Action Center. See also Malnutrition#United States. Note also that the US has the problem that the cheapest foods tend to be unhealthy, so just because someone has enough money to buy the calories they need doesn't mean that they're able to get properly nourished. Paul (Stansifer) 18:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

You make a good point. A recent question asked about undernourishment, which I don't think does really exist in the modern world (there will be people that don't get enough food, but they could if they claimed the various benefits they are entitled to), but that doesn't mean there isn't malnourishment. I think a large part of the problem is lack of education rather than lack of money, though - you can eat a healthy balanced diet on a very low budget if you know how (try rice, for example, as a very cheap healthy carbohydrate and protein source). --Tango (talk) 18:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The will be a small number of people who aren't entitled to any benefits, such as people who have made themselves intentionally unemployed, or illegal immigrants, but the numbers are small enough that they can be served by charitable facilties such as soup kitchens and so are unlikely to be undernourished. Warofdreams talk 19:48, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

There are a large number of legal immigrants who cannot get benefits - people from the EU A8 countries who are not working, for example. --Phil Holmes (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

While it is over 100 years old, I would strongly suggest anyone thinking a large part of the problem is lack of education read Round about a pound a week. Among other things, it details the well-meaning attempts at educating the poor in cheap nutrition, which sadly ignore the practical realities of their lives. While I could feed myself very cheaply and nutritiously, the very cheapest options are quite time-consuming and likely to get boring very quickly. They would be difficult to sustain a child on. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 20:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Round About a Pound a Week. The People of the Abyss by Jack London gives another picture of the poverty in the east end of London around 1900, but things have changed a lot since then, including the NHS which started in 1948. 78.146.176.116 (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Things have changed a lot, some of it thanks to exactly these books, but they are still important to make people think. "Educating" people on how to feed themselves nutritiously without taking the details of their lives into account is an easy trap to fall in to, and I've seen it repeatedly in modern times. From "Round About a Pound a Week":

"[A doctor] ended his course by telling his audience that, if they wished to do good to the children of the poor, they would do more towards effecting their purpose if they were to walk through East End streets with placards bearing the legend "MILK is the proper food for infants" than by taking any other action he could think of. (...) He was, however, wrong in his idea that poor women do not realise that milk is the proper food for infants. The reason why the infants do not get milk is the reason why they do not get good housing or comfortable clothing - it is too expensive."

Especially still pertinent is this section below, on the well-meaning nutritional advice given to mothers. Porridge oats are cheap, and porridge seems a nutritious thing to suggest for children's breakfasts...

"The visitors in this investigation hoped to carry with them a gospel of porridge to the hardworking mothers of families in Lambeth. The women of Lambeth listened patiently, according to their way, agreed to all that was said, and did not begin to feed their families on porridge. Being there to watch and note rather than to teach and preach, the visitors waited to hear, when and how they could, what the objection was. It was not one reason, but many. Porridge needs long cooking; if on the gas, that means expense; if on an open fire, constant stirring and watching just when the mother is most busy getting the children up. Moreover, the fire is often not lit before breakfast. It was pointed out that porridge is a food which will keep when made. It could be cooked when the children are at school and merely warmed up in the morning. The women agreed again, but still no porridge. It seemed, after further patient waiting on the part of the visitors, that the husbands and children could not abide porridge - to use the expressive language of the district, "they 'eaved at it."

"Why? Well, cooked the day before, and eaten with milk and sugar, all children liked porridge. But the mothers held up their hands. Milk! Who could give milk - or sugar either, for that matter? Of course, if you could give them milk and sugar, no wonder! They might eat it then, even if it was a bit burnt. Porridge was an awful thing to burn in old pots if you left it a minute; and if you set the pot flat on its bottom instead of holding it all to one side to keep the burnt place away from the flames, it would "ketch" at once. An' then, if you'd happened to cook fish or "stoo" in the pot for dinner, there was a kind of taste come out in the porridge. It was more than they could bear to see children who was 'ungry, mind you, pushin' their food away or 'eavin at it. So it usually ended in a slice of "bread and marge" all round, and a drink of tea, which was the breakfast they were accustomed to."

A family living on benefits or minimum wage in the UK still faces many of these same problems in eating nutritiously and cheaply. As a century ago, they do not have the money to buy in bulk, driving up prices. They have limited space and equipment for cooking: families housed in B&Bs or equivalent often have no access to cooking equipment or refrigerated storage. Even in proper council housing, decent cooking equipment can be scarce. Systems are in place to help, but the processes are long and convoluted, taking a long time and requiring you to know which hoops to jump through. They cannot afford to make the 'nice' versions of healthy food, making it more likely that the children will refuse it. Living on a tight budget, they cannot afford to buy and prepare food which is not eaten. Think of how much it improves cheap cooking to have access to herbs and spices: that is an initial outlay that can't always be budgeted for. Bread is cheap, and children eat it. Utility costs for cooking are also a factor.

Seriously, we've come a long way, but living on benefits under the current system is not easy or pleasant. Is it made easier by advice like this? Supposedly, this is a low-cost option. Have a look at the proposed menus for the parent living on a budget: notice how many packets of things you would have to buy to provide the variety they say is "required to ensure that they are nutritionally balanced". How much would that cost, as an initial outlay? How much food would go off before you went round the cycle and needed another fruit fromage frais, or another pitta? Look at the investment of time, and the high risk of the child not liking the food that you bought a whole packet of. This is advice issued in 2010. Faced with experts saying this was required, and a hungry child, wouldn't you just feed the child anything they'd eat? 86.180.48.37 (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The sandwich recipies seem designed for middle-class families buying things at supermarkets, not those on the dole. I think you are exaggerating the problem - if people refuse to help themselves or put any effort in, such as not looking for a job or living hedonistically, then they are going to doom themselves to a bad situation. Smokers, drinkers, and drivers are going to be short of money. The benefits and health system in the UK works well and means people never have the same fears or worries that they do on the other side of the altlantic. Its foolish to use a set of up-market recipes, material from 1913, or imagining passively hedonistic families as evidence to to condem it. People on the dole are not really entitled to epicure food served by a butler, and by the way you can buy a large cannister of dried mixed herbs in Tescos for 15p. The key need may be that of teaching people how to do simple cookery, such as rice or pasta or cooking vegetables. Many less-well off people have no idea how to cook, in my experience, so have no choice but to eat bad and/or expensive food. I would make cookery and nutrition lessons in schools compulsory for both genders. I understand that "home economics" is rarely taught in schools nowerdays, and that may be a root cause of the problem. 78.146.87.143 (talk) 09:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

As I made very clear, the point of the 1913 text is in raising the issues. The advice from 2010 is advice given out in state primary schools to all parents, not just the middle-class ones. It is not upmarket. And it is very similar to the advice that was on a government website about 5 years ago, aimed at parents in general. It is 'middle-class' food, but that is because the people who write this sort of thing 'educating' parents on how to feed their children are themselves middle-class. I have never claimed that the poorest should receive "epicure food served by a butler", simply that education is not the main reason poorer families (who are at least as likely to be buying things in supermarkets, given they are cheap and accessible. I don't know where you were coming from there) are likely to be eating less-than-ideal food. As someone who lived for a good few months with cheap vegetable stock cubes for my main seasoning, I feel able to say that a large cannister of dried mixed herbs is not the way to variety of flavour, nor will it allow you to cook much: you need 4 or 5 separate herbs and spices, which will cost more.

The whole "it's just lack of education" argument is tied up in a very ugly way with class, in the UK: notice how you said "middle-class families" as a contrast for those living on the dole. In reality, particularly in this economic climate, many middle-class families find themselves having to claim benefits and are shocked to find how difficult and time-consuming it is to start receiving money (because the system assumes they are trying to defraud it), how little they get (most people assume benefits are twice as high as reality), how hard it is to make ends meet, harder because they will not have received any money in the time they were working through the system. I'm not talking about passive hedonists (the hell?), I'm talking about the practicalities of living on very little. The assumption that the working class (and that is what is meant, when they are contrasted with 'middle-class families') are too stupid and ignorant to know that they should eat less fat and sugar and more fruit and vegetables, often tied to the idea that if only the working classes could be more middle class everything would be fine, is all-pervasive. Look at the outcry when the government suggested middle-class people drinking a bottle of wine an evening should cut down: compare it to the reaction when the government cracks down on cheap cider or pubs that allow people to get very drunk. It's an irregular verb: I like a drink to relax, you are an alcoholic, they are binge-drinkers. I like good food, you occasionally pig-out, they don't understand nutrition. I'm sometimes tired and make something quick, you know a few short-cuts in the kitchen, they can't cook properly.

A higher proportion of the middle-class people I've known have shown a shocking lack of food knowledge than working-class people: wasteful stuff like roasting a chicken and only using the breast. But one of the things that makes roast chicken an affordable thing for me is that I use the carcass in the week for chicken sandwiches, chicken curry, and chicken soup. That requires me to have: enough refrigerator space and equipment to put chicken carcass in (a large tupperware box); curry paste or suitable mix of spices; a saucepan or pressure cooker large enough to fit a chicken carcass in; time to supervise the boiling; a working hob; the ability to afford gas to continuously heat the pan with for long enough; a blender or masher. Roasting the chicken requires me to have: a roasting pan of the right size; a working oven; tin foil. This isn't to make it especially nice, this is just to make it possible. Given access to all these things, I can make a roast chicken give 2 or 3 main meals plus sandwiches for 2 to 4 people: this is very cheap. Without access to those things, I cannot provide these cheap, nutritious meals. There have been many times over the years when I have lacked some of these, and then I have been unable to cook these things. I know quite a lot about cooking and food, but there have been times when I have been faced with the same cheap, relatively healthy mush for the fourth day in a row, and I have bought a happy meal instead, in the full knowledge that it was bad for me. Because I couldn't even afford edible cheese. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 21:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm unclear as to what points you are trying to make - would they be a) that living on the dole does not give you enough money to buy fresh herbs or booze? and b) that middle-class people patronise people on the dole who are not in fact ignorant or uneducated regarding nutrition as the middle-classes suppose? and c) that a lot of middle-class people are on the dole? 92.29.62.136 (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Simple lack of food is more of a problem than that in industrialized nations. For one thing, if food stamps can't cover the whole cost of food, someone might chose to just not eat as much in order to have money for, say, the medication they need. Also, the soup kitchens are often mainly providing food to people who would otherwise be forced to eat junk, so they're well-utilized already.

Nutritional education is certainly very important, but note that there are other difficulties in eating healthily on the cheap. If you don't have a stove, for example, you just can't eat rice. I seem to remember that Nickel and Dimed had quite a few times in which the author discovered, to her surprise, that many ways to live cheaply are only available to people who have some money in the first place. Paul (Stansifer) 21:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

These five links may be helpful.

• Living on Less - food poverty and malnutrition
• More than 3m Britons at risk of malnutrition, reports says | Society | guardian.co.uk
• Now we've got to save the children living in poverty in Britain | Mail Online
• 30. Malnutrition and Income: Are We Being Misled? (A Dissenting View with a Confusing Literature)
• List of countries by percentage of population suffering from undernourishment

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The situation in the United States is certainly different from the situation in most of western Europe. There are millions of people here who are not entitled to "benefits" or whose "benefits" are insufficient for adequate nutrition. Many of them go through periods of hunger, interspersed with periods with a stomach full of junk food. Others who get benefits or wages that could provide adequate nutrition nonetheless subsist on junk food (including most fast food) mainly because a lack of education. That said, even in the United States, you hardly ever see children with distended bellies or hear of deaths from starvation. Marco polo (talk) 15:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

If some people "hardly ever see" those things, that could be because they hardly ever visit underprivileged ghettos, and because they usually obtain news from the corporate media, which hardly ever report on those things. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I am frankly a bit offended by this comment, as I do pass through some very poor neighborhoods and have in the past worked as a tenant organizer in very poor communities in the United States. Moreover, I actively seek out alternative news sources. According to this organization devoted to fighting hunger in the United States, "starvation seldom occurs in this country". And they would have every reason to highlight if it occurred more often. Distended bellies are a symptom of kwashiorkor. This source states that kwashiorkor is "rare in the United States". This hospital likewise reports that it is "very rare". None of these sources can be called corporate media. If you visited "underprivileged ghettos" in the United States as I have, you'd know as well as I do that you generally do not see distended bellies. Before subjecting comments by others to ignorant criticism, I suggest you consult reputable sources. Marco polo (talk) 19:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Will Rogers said, "America has its poor people, but they're the richest poor in the world." There's no excuse for anyone to starve in America. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Are the richest poor rich enough to get free health care? 78.146.176.116 (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The usual question in the US is whether they are poor enough to get government benefits. FYI, there is no such thing as "free" health care. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a "no" then. 78.146.176.116 (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly. The premise of your question is false. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Marco polo, I meant no offense. The basis for my comment is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I found three more links.

• Overweight and Undernourished in America | Newsdesk.org (08 July 2009)
• YouTube - American Poverty-Homless and Starvation On the RIse [sic] (3:05) (I found this by searching on YouTube for "starvation america".)
• Google labs - public data "Malnutrition prevalence, weight for age (% of children under 5)"

-- Wavelength (talk) 22:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

In the UK the poorest people are usually the fattest, making a sweeping generalisation. They get enough calories, but due to ignorance or sometimes possibly not being able to buy fresh fruit and veg in a few of the most deprived areas, eat junk food. The second link in the group above refers to the elderly, and this often overlooked group may not be feeding themselves very well. Edit: a root cause may be that in my experience many people have no idea how to cook, so they can only eat pricey junk food. Showing people how to do simple cookery of pasta rice and vegetables would help greatly. 78.146.176.116 (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I did a Google search for school cafeteria junk food site:.edu, and the second result was Junk Food, Marketing, and Behavior - WikEd.

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

See World Hunger Notes -- 2008 United States Hunger Facts and Poverty Facts by World Hunger Education Service.

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable Virginia Attractions

Does anyone know of attractions to Virginia before the Civil War? Why would people settle or visit there? What was there to see? 72.94.161.188 (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but the Reference Desk will not do your homework for you. Xenon54 (talk) 19:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This is not homework, i would just like to know before the civil war were there any notable attractions in Virginia?72.94.161.188 (talk) 19:46, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Surely Mount Vernon qualifies. Then take a look at the categories at the bottom of the page and you'll see there are several Virginia historical categories there. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:50, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This does not sound like a homework question to me. If it were a homework question, I think it would probably be asking about before the Revolutionary War. In any case, the soils in Virginia are much less rocky than is typical in New England, but the climate is still temperate enough to grow crops familiar to European colonists which would not fare as well in the Carolinas or Georgia. And it's coastal geography is rich with harbors and bays, allowing for easy sea and river transport. The forests are still thick with useful lumber trees, and of course there are several coal seams near the surface, and exposed in places making their evidence clear and easy for prospectors. Between the Revolutionary and Civil Wars, Coastal Virginia was rich with agriculture, industry, commerce, and education. Tourists would have been attracted to the celebrities of the the D.C. area, as well. 71.198.176.22 (talk) 19:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

History of Virginia will be a starting point - there are two hundred years of (European colonial) history prior to the Civil War. Surely you're heard of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson??? Acroterion _(talk) 20:28, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Question for the OP: Do you mean placed that people who lived in Virginia would have visited before the civil war OR do you mean places that you can visit today that existed before the civil war did? Because the answer to the first question is likely nowhere since the modern tourism/vacation industry didn't really get cracking until the 20th century. As far as the answer to the second question, there's Monticello and Mount Vernon, there's natural sites like lots of stuff in the Shenandoah Valley, which has been there millions of years. Lots of pre-Civil war historical sites are in the Hampton Roads area, like Colonial Williamsburg, Jamestown, stuff like that. --Jayron32 03:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed that there was no such thing as tourism in North America before about 1800, but during the early 1800s, it began to be fashionable to visit spas. The main example in Virginia would have been Hot Springs, Virginia. Other than that, people traveled mainly for economic reasons. The main reasons people came to Virginia, mainly during the 1700s, in addition to the reasons listed above (ability to grow European crops, but better soils than the New England colonies, easy access to trade with England and the West Indies via the Chesapeake Bay and its many arms, a good supply of lumber), I would add that there was a large supply of land in the interior available to farmers who were willing to clear it for little or no cost. Also, like other American colonies, Virginia, particularly along its interior frontier offered relative freedom from the religious and class constraints of Europe. In addition, Virginia was well suited to growing tobacco, a lucrative crop. Finally, don't forget that many of those who came to Virginia before the Civil War came unwillingly as victims of the transatlantic slave trade. Marco polo (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Searching for a short story title and author

I read a story a number of years ago about a writer in a European country who wrote a short story which was read by the "wrong" people in his country & misinterpreted as to its political content. He was forced to move to another country with his wife. This process repeated itself in the new country when he published his story and so on, so on until he finally came to the US where thought he would have complete freedom of expression. But, it happened again. I think it was an American author and am fairly sure it was written after (maybe during) the McCarthy era. Can anyone direct me to the story and its author? Thanks in advance. ProfePerson (talk) 22:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not certain if its the same person at all, but could you be thinking of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn? He was basically thrown out of the Soviet Union for his writings critical of the Communist regime there. He live in Germany, Switzerland, and the U.S. for some time, and was also critical of the excesses of the western lifestyle, though AFAIK there was no effort to actually kick him out of any of THOSE countries. --Jayron32 03:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

For Whom the Bell Tolls

Hello all. I am doing a report on the book For Whom the Bell tolls, of which a plot summary is a part. I have most of the summary done, but I can't quite figure out which is the climax: the blowing of the bridge or the very end, when Jordan sights down the Lieutenant as his final act. It seems both build tension, and I would probably pick the first, but I'm told that tension shouldn't build anytime agter the climax. Can someone help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.248.227.1 (talk) 23:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Consider that Hemingway's plot might not correspond exactly to a theoretically ideal structure. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

See the Dénouement article; and consider that there are other possibilities rather than just these two. A single paragraph in the book doesn't have to constitute the entire climax. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The climax has got to be: ... "The Bell Tolls for Thee"... and the full quotation. MacOfJesus (talk) 14:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)