Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 March 11

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March 11

Mistranslation from Japanese

I'm watching an anime that's been translated from Japanese to English as both subtitles and dubbing. For the most part, the two agree with each other fairly well, but at one point, a line is translated in the subtitle as "Because I kissed you", and in the dubbing as "Because you kissed me" (I've got no idea what the original is; from the context, "because you kissed me" is more likely). Is this a reasonable translation mistake, or was someone being exceptionally careless? --67.185.172.158 (talk) 01:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Japanese generally uses directional verbs rather than pronouns, but much of the time the identities of participants need to be deduced from context. Without knowing the original, I can't say whether it's a careless mistake of grammar, or if they lost track of the context. — kwami (talk) 02:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be useful to know the show, the episode number, and approximate location within the episode. Then we could give you an exact answer. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In Korean, "키스했으니까" ("kisseuhaetsseunikka") is literally "kissed_is_the_reason". Although I'm not sure, I suppose Japanese would be similar with "kiss-shitte-takara" or something like that. --Kjoonlee 08:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Except it would be "dakara". ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Like they say above, the literal translation probably has no pronouns in it, something like "because a kiss was done". (My guess would be kisu wo shita kara.) --Masamage ♫ 01:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Margarine, Margaret and soft/hard g

I spotted a typo the other day, where someone had written "margerine" for margarine. It's an understandable error, though. And I got to wondering, is there any other word in English where a g followed by an a is pronounced soft, as j? I know that some people pronounce it hard, as in the g in Margaret. Which is very defensible since both words derive from the same source, the Greek word for "pearl". So, how come we (generally) say marjarine but Margaret? -- JackofOz (talk) 05:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Is the former a corruption based on Margery? — kwami (talk) 06:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The word gaol has always irritated me, and I remember exactly where I encountered it for the first time. In my head I initially pronounced it "gowl", and only gradually made the connection. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

When the hydrogenated oil spread was a newer phenomenon, English ladies of a certain class used to refer to it down their noses with a hard g. It appears that even in Australia some people still regard the hard g as correct. SaundersW (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I can remember margarine being pronounced with a hard g in TV commercials (probably for Stork) in the early 1960s, but it seemed old-fashioned even then and I don't think it lasted long. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, gaol. Apparently some older Australian correctional establishments are "X Gaol". Most of the newer ones seem to be called "prison" or "facility" or "centre" or such. But in everyday usage, "jail" is by far the predominant spelling. By far. Funny, I also remember distinctly the first time I came across the word "gaol", as a child, and I asked my Mum what it meant. She told me, and said it was the American spelling of "jail". Yet, our article says the exact reverse - i.e. that the original spelling was "gaol" and we've only latterly adopted the American version "jail". Either my Mum or Wikipedia is wrong - and there's obviously no contest which version I favour. So, margarine and gaol. Any others? Oh, kwami, your "Margery" idea sounds plausible (it's also sometimes spelled Marjery). -- JackofOz (talk) 10:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In fact, Marjorie is far and away the most prevalent version, so it's highly unlikely to have influenced the spelling of margarine. Malcolm XIV (talk) 12:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Every source I've ever read said 'gaol' was a British variant spelling (including my Mac OS X pop-up dictionary). I have never seen it used in Canada or the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Davidson (talk • contribs) 11:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Checking with the article margarine derives from "margaric acid" and it mentions that it can be illegal to colour it in some places. What does un-coloured marge look like? Pearly at all? Julia Rossi (talk) 11:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, margarine was named and invented by a Frenchman. In French, the "g" is always hard. Rhinoracer (talk) 11:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, "gentile" has the sound as in English "pleasure". --Kjoonlee 11:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess Rhinoracer means the g is always hard in margarine (in French). BTW, I presume you mean "gentil" or "gentille" AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

CMU Pronouncing Dictionary has the following entries:

ALLERGAN AE L ER JH AH N

BELGACOM B EH L JH AH K AA M

DIGAETANO D IH JH AH T AA N OW

DIGALAKIS D IH JH AH L AA K AH S

DUGAL D UW JH AH L

FOGAL F OW JH AH L

SCHMIDGALL SH M IH JH AH L

SIGAL S AY JH AH L

MARGARINE M AA R JH ER AH N

Most are names. But, CMU is not a particularly large list of words. OED online has the following:

Brit. /ˌmɑːdʒəˈriːn/, /ˌmɑːgəˈriːn/, U.S. /ˈmɑrdʒ(ə)rən/ Forms: 18- margarin, 18- margarine. [< French margarine MARGARIN n. (an application arising from a misconception about the chemical nature of the substance). Cf. OLEOMARGARINE n.

For the coinage in French note the following patents by A. M. Mège:

1869 in Descr. des Machines et Procédés: Brevets d'Invention (1884) 109 XIV. iii. 12/2 Le corps gras obtenu ci-dessus est composé, comme le beurre, de margarine, d'oléine et d'un peu d'huile odorante. 1874 in Descr. des Machines et Procédés: Brevets d'Invention (1884) 109 XIV. iii. 13/2 L'oléomargarine, nommé vulgairement margarine, sortant de la presse, a la même composition que le beurre.

N.E.D. (1905) gives as the pronunciation only (mā·ɹgărīn), with /-g-/; ; this pronunciation, which became rare in the second half of the 20th cent., prob. underlies the nickname Maggie Ann (see MAGGIE n. 4). N.E.D. (1902), however, s.v. Oleomargarine, notes that the latter is ‘Often mispronounced (-mā·ɹdʒărīn), as if spelt -margerine’ (i.e. with /-dʒ-/; ). The latter pronunciation is recorded in 1913 (with subordinate status) by H. Michaelis & D. Jones Phonetic Dict. Eng. Lang.; the shortened form marge, in which -ge also implies pronunciation with /-dʒ-/, is attested within ten years of this (see 1922 at MARGE n.²). The shift of stress, outside North American English, from the first to the final syllable is also first evidenced in the 1913 source.]

I would guess like kwami that the change from g > dʒ is due to analogy with Margery. Note its variant pronunciation and spelling:

Forms: ME margari, ME margary, ME margeri, ME margerie, ME margerye, ME margyrye, ME mariari, ME mariori, ME mariorie, ME mariory, ME marjory, ME-15 margery, 15 mariery; Sc. pre-17 margerie, pre-17 margorie, pre-17 marjory. [< Anglo-Norman and Middle French margerie (early 12th cent. in Old French), Middle French margarie (15th cent.) < classical Latin margarta MARGARITE n.¹

Commonly used as a female forename in England from the late 18th cent., at which time it was one of the most popular female forenames in use. In Middle English the g was variously pronounced /dʒ/; and /g/ (cf. the pet-forms Mag(ge), Meg(ge), Mog(ge), Mag(g)ot, Meg(g)ot, Mog(g)ot). For applications of the pet-forms of this name see MADGE n.¹, MAGGOT n.², MEG n.¹]

– ishwar  (speak) 13:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Since we are offering guesses, here is mine. Based on (too) many years of work in the private sector, I will guess that corporations marketing margarine conducted extensive market research and found that consumers were more likely to want to buy mar ja rin than mar ga rin with a hard g. The product already had an accepted spelling. What was needed was for appealing voices to pronounce the word mar ja rin in radio and TV advertising to entice housewives (since this transition happened mainly in the 1940s and 50s) to buy the product. That name would have stuck, since it was the pronunciation consumers preferred anyway. It is possible that they preferred it because it was similar to the pronunciation of Marjorie (though the mar ga rin is not so far off from the pronunciation of Margaret). It might also be that the softer pronunciation was more appealing because it subliminally suggested the pleasant softness and smoothness of butter at room temperature. Again, this is speculation on my part. By the way, my grandmother was born and raised in the United States, and she pronounced it with a hard g. She would have grown up before margarine was commercially available and probably came to know it before marketing campaigns imposed the soft g. Marco polo (talk) 16:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

More broadly, what other English words have soft g not followed by a front vowel (e,i,y)? I know of two: judgment (Fowler recommends judgement except in the legal sense) and digoxin (an extract of digitalis). —Tamfang (talk) 21:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

See the list from the CMU pronouncing dictionary above. Acknowledgment is another one like judgment. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 21:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating. Thanks, all. But I wonder if anyone, anywhere, actually pronounces margarine as "M AA R JH ER AH N". -een, -ine, sure, but -ahn? -- JackofOz (talk)

In the transcription system used by CMU, "AH" = /ʌ/ and /ə/. The usual American pronunciation is /ˈmɑrdʒərən/. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 08:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, so it's a schwa. Thanks, Angr. The Americans are welcome to that pronunciation. I have a great and abiding fondness for words ending in the sound -reen, preferably preceded by a vowel, so it's definitely maa-ja-reen for me. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Arabic

How would I write this surname in arabic? BREMNER

Thanks if you can help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.41.211 (talk) 10:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

برمنر --Omidinist (talk) 11:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Please correct my text about an excerpt from book about apartheid!

Hello guys!

I have three texts which I would like to have corrected / improved by you.

Thanks in advance

Isn't there some kind of injunction here against getting your homework done for free? If not, maybe there oughta be ... +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Look up there at the top of this page, the bit about homework. If it's not homework, what is it for? I'll go so far as to say that it's not bad at all for a German, better than many native English speakers could do. "We never did anything forbidden" was a dead giveaway, though. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes OK, I confess that it's homework. You shouldn't do my homework but just corrrect it, though. How did you know that I'm German? Did you look up my IP or was it my text? -80.171.41.249 (talk) 09:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I ran WHOIS on your address, but, again, "We never did anything forbidden" was a dead giveaway (verboten is in the English dictionaries, did you know that?). More natural would be "We never did anything wrong." Also, "They just made our life to a living hell" is unidiomatic, in American English, anyway. It should be "They just made our life a living hell." As for the rest, I hesitate to pass judgement because I don't speak Seth Efrikan. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

1) Explain what is happening to the Prinsloo family under the apartheid laws.

The Prinsloo family described in this excerpt from “Ah, but your land is beautiful” by “Alan Paton”, published 1981, is an conventional family which suffers under the apartheid laws in South Africa.

is a conventional family. "an" is used before words that start with a vowel sound. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Prinsloos’ life seems to work quite well.

Prinsloo's --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Not so much, I think. The name is Prinsloo, the family is the Prinsloos, things belonging to the family are the Prinsloos'. Some would make it "Prinsloos's", believe it or not, on the principle "always add apostrophe ess to form the possessive". --Milkbreath (talk) 16:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Milkbreath is correct, and I can only plead lack of sleep. --LarryMac | Talk 17:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Lodewyk Prinsloo is married, has got children visiting school and works as a clerk-in-charge. They are an average and respectable family. But then it turns out, that Mr. Prinsloo is classified as a coloured person on his birth certificate.

"But then" can be eliminated from this sentence, and the comma after "out" is unnecessary. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

He had labeled himself as a member of the white race, however. Therefore, two inspectors pay him a visit and tell him which consequences he has to face. Lodewyk tries to explain, that his most of his family was white and even his mother looked white even though she was classified as a coloured woman.

The comma after "explain" is unnecessary, there is an extraneous "his" in there. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the inspectors just ignore what Lodewyk said and inform him that he is discharged as from today because a coloured man is not allowed to be a clerk-in-charge. Moreover, he has to move from his current town to a place where coloureds are allowed to live. Even his children have to change school because they are not allowed to visit a school for whites anymore.

"attend" is probably a better choice than "visit". --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Finally, the policemen tell him that he has three month to meet these requirements.

months. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

So the well-ordered family life is totally mixed up in a few moments.

2) Analyse the effects that the situation has on the characters in this story.

These laws have quite huge consequences for most of the characters. The family will lose their social status and most whites will not want to have any contact with them, because they are considered coloured people. So they will probably lose most of their friends and the new situation might even cause problems within the family. It could be rather difficult for them to find new friends as they are caught between two stools: they look white but they are legally coloureds. So they could have problems with coloureds or blacks as well. Perhaps the whites will be afraid, that their relationship with the Prinsloos could do any harm to their reputation. Moreover, the family might impoverish, because Mr. Prinsloo will likely become unemployed. Even when he has found a new job, he will definitely earn much less. Simply because he is considered a coloured now he will have a harder and more tedious job. There are also serious consequences for the children as they have change their school. That's why they will probably get less educated teachers and they will get less educated themselves. Above all, as coloured children they surely will not make their career but have to work in low-paid jobs. Furthermore, the marriage could get destroyed because of these circumstances. Mrs Prinsloo is a “full-blooded white” so it is her choice: Accept the laws and live a less agreeable life or leave her husband and start over in life.

3) Write a continuation of the story from one of the children’s point of view.

Since the policemen visited my dad eleven weeks ago our life is completely destroyed. Now, we are faced with ruin. There is almost nothing we still have out of our previous life. We have to leave our home in about a week and I have to give up school in six days. What are we supposed to do after that week? We still have no new house and my parents did not find a new school for me yet. Another problem is, that we will run out of money because this is the last week my dad gets paid. Of course, he did not find a new job by now. There is even more to it than that. Most of my friends and acquaintances do not want to deal with me anymore, because the police told them lies about us. Furthermore the coloureds and blacks do not show real respect to us, because we are actually white and look like their enemies. They think we are unlike them and that we do not belong to them. Anyhow, the worst is that I don’t understand why all this is happening. We never did anything forbidden. We are white and even if we were coloured that would not be fair! My brother still thinks all of this is some kind of joke and we just need to appeal to someone who brings back our old life. I do not think that there is anything we can do. They just made our life to a living hell and we are helpless.

--80.171.32.226 (talk) 10:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

How old is the child in the third example? The child uses language that I don't associate with small children: faced with ruin, acquaintances, show real respect to us, forbidden, appeal to someone, living hell. HYENASTE 18:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe he is a clever teenager. --80.171.41.249 (talk) 09:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Russian translation

Hi everyone. I'm trying to write an article that's predominately about a Russian phenomenon. The source I would like to use is in Russian. If it's possible, could someone translate the text from beneath the bear picture to where the conversation about Preved Medved ends? [1] If you can post the translation in one of my sandboxes (User:Seraphim Whipp/Sandbox 3) so I can attribute it and have it deleted after, I would be most appreciative. Thanks :). Seraphim♥ ^Whipp 13:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Which bear picture? There are at least seven bear pictures on that page. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The first picture which shows a couple having sex and a bear, whose arms are raised in a Y shape. Seraphim♥ ^Whipp 15:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you are looking at the picture that's captioned "Коллаж «Превед!»", it can be translated as "The 'Preved!' collage". Hope it helps, although I have no idea why they called it a collage.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank-you for translating. However, I've not clarified myself again! *me/ hits head* I meant, could the paragraph of text with the conversation with the artist be translated. Sorry for being such a pain! Seraphim♥ ^Whipp 19:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

My Russian is still pretty poor, so I hope Ëzhiki or someone else who speaks the language better than I do can provide a better translation, but here are a couple of facts that I can make out of the first three paragraphs below the Preved Collage (but not including the interview):

• The bear's "preved" is quoted on more than 2,000 websites and 300,000 web pages. "Preved" returns 1,330,000 Google hits.
• It took only 14 days for "preved" to make its way to all corners of Russian language Internet.
• Many people are making their own art (referred in the text as аффтарские, that is авторские, or "original", in preved-speak) based on the preved bear theme.
• A new smiley has been invented; it's Y, the shape of the bear with arms outstretched in the air.
• A certain Vadim Sova bought the domain preved.ru for 20 USD and sold it for 1,500 USD on the next day. The domain's current owner, Konstantin Rykov provides @preved.ru email addresses.
• The word "preved" is used by protestors on their banners.
• You can buy T-shirts, caps, watches and even preservatives with the preved bear on them.

— Kpalion^(talk) 19:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yup, that's pretty much covers it. I'll translate the interview with the artist shortly (consider it a warning to avoid duplicate efforts) and put it into Seraphim's sandbox linked above.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I've started translating it (in User:Seraphim Whipp/Sandbox 3), but then, of course, something urgent came up, and I can't finish it. If someone wants to finish the final piece (I copied the untranslated part of the original to the sandbox), please do so; otherwise I'll try to finish it tomorrow. Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Finished translation, hope it helps--Luckib (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Orchestra's relation to conductor

An orchestra can be said to be "lead" by a conductor? In the sentence "performed by the XXX orchestra under XXX conductor", you can't say "under the conduction of XXX conductor", because conduction has only one definition and that isn't it - what word(s) do fit? ----Seans Potato Business 17:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Under the direction of ...? ---Sluzzelin talk 18:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Be aware that you've just made a very common misteak: the word you wanted is "led". The one you used refers to that heavy metallic element (and is the present participle of the verb "to lead"). +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You sure that "lead" is a mistake? How common? My dictionary (WordWeb Pro) gives an example: "This remark lead to further arguments among the guests" ----Seans Potato Business 21:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Common enough, I guess. That WordWeb thing got this one wrong. You should write and let them know. ("Misteak", huh? It never fails, does it?) --Milkbreath (talk) 22:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like they've already fixed it in their database. Don't understand what you mean about "misteaks" not failing...? ----Seans Potato Business 06:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps referring to my (intentional, ironic) misspelling of "mistakes". (Or maybe not.) Like how spelling flames often contain spelling errors. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 07:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

There are several possibilities. Yes, you can say that Bruckner's Symphony No. 8 was performed by the "the Munich Philharmonic led by conductor Sergiu Celibidache". You could also say "the Munich Philharmonic under the direction of Sergiu Celibidache", "the Munich Philharmonic conducted by Sergiu Celibidache", simply "the Munich Philharmonic under Sergiu Celibidache", or "the Munich Philharmonic under the baton of Sergiu Celibidache" (but not all conductors use a baton...). 194.171.56.13 (talk) 19:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. ----Seans Potato Business 21:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Rules of grammar

A long time ago, I came across a poster containing a list of prescriptivist "rules of English grammar", each written in such a way that it violated itself, such as "Remember to never split an infinitive" or "And never begin a sentence with a conjunction". Does anyone know where I could find this list? --Carnildo (talk) 20:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep. HYENASTE 21:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Not quite what I'm looking for: it's got sentences that are incorrect from any point of view. --Carnildo (talk) 21:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Obviously prescriptivists have some things right about grammar. I'm pretty sure this is what you're looking for. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

There are various versions of such lists around. One well known shorter list of 10 things not to do is attributed to William Safire; I have a photocopy of it, and I may even have seen a poster, but I don't know if it's online. However this suggests that he wasn’t the originator of the idea of putting together such a list - that honour goes to a George L Trigg. Apparently Safire thought this idea was ripe for further development, so he gave his readers a couple of starters and asked them to contribute further suggestions, which he published in his column. The link gives 33 of these rules (many, most or perhaps even all may be in Hyenaste's link which has 62). Safire later wrote a book called "Fumblerules" with, I assume, lots of further examples (I haven't read it). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sort of reminds me of the mnemonic names we gave to various phonological processes in grad school, names like "sync'pe", " 'pheresis", and "apocop' ". —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 10:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

An ambitious person

What are some words meaning someone who is very ambitious? I'm looking for a noun, not an adjective. Vitriol (talk) 21:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Go-getter; crusader (?); high-flier; self-starter; self-motivator. Can't think of any more at the moment. Hassocks5489 (talk) 23:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Overachiever, aspirant, workaholic, contender, a Gekko, a player, fast-burner, windsucker...?

I did an advanced search in the OED and came up with a few: ambitionist (1827), arrivist(e) (1944), Napoleon, mounter, climber, percher (obsolete and rare), and sky-flyer (1897). I would not have to look up "arriviste", "Napoleon", or "climber" if I ran into them in a text. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Rain maker. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC))