Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 August 31

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August 31

Learning English

hi how you i am sukhi so i speaking no english .but i understand english . and i read english .i want speak english.so i ask you .aduelt school is open / no open / what is the time open. morning.afternoon.evening.so pleage my quest the answer. i speak english.i good speaking english. thankes.good bye. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.46.131 (talk) 00:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

[I added a heading ("Learning English") to this section.—Wavelength (talk) 00:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)]

This reference desk is not a place to help you find language classes. Locations, times, and dates for language classes are not the same everywhere; you should ask for help from someone who lives in the same city as you. rʨanaɢ (talk) 00:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion that doesn't answer the question

What's a sukhi? 92.80.21.55 (talk) 07:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC) From the context, it is obvious sukhi is the OP's name. The IP address sahows Sukhi is in the United States, but it is a big country and without knowing which city and state they are in I don't think we will be able to help. Astronaut (talk) 09:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Well, Wikipedia's default geolocator puts the IP to Sacramento, if it's any help. I'm not sure how reliable this is.—Emil J. 11:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC) How is it obvious that it's his/her name? "i am sukhi so i speaking no english" sounds to me as if being (a) sukhi means that you don't natively speak English very well - because sukhi is an ethnicity or something, even though apparently it isn't. Rimush (talk) 12:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Given the OP's acknowledgment that their English is far from great, we can expect them to use words in a way we would not. But look closer in edit mode. "i am sukhi" is separated from "so i speaking no english", which says to me they're not meant to be read together. Sukhi is an Indian name. Lots of people come here and start their question with "so" - "So, I'm majoring in Latin this year and I need to know blah blah". Apparently Sukhi has seen this and done the right thing by copying them. That's my take. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 14:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Granted, but not knowing English is no excuse for not using punctuation. Rimush (talk) 14:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Several questions bother me: On one hand, the OP writes (in the beginning): i speaking no english; On the other hand, they write later: i good speaking english. Not knowing English is no excuse for bad logic... As User:Rimush has pointed out, not knowing English is no excuse for bad punctuation (e.g putting full stops when unneeded, avoiding full stops when needed, putting redundant double blank spaces, and avoiding blank spaces when needed)... The OP writes: so pleage my quest the answer. Which human language can permit such a syntax? Additionally, they say: what is the time open; Not knowing English is no excuse for an impossible syntax in any human language... How about the OP's grammar? On one hand, they say: how [are] you[?]...i [am] speaking no english, so they are not aware of the copula are and am; On the other hand, they say: i am sukhi...school is open...what is the time, so they are aware of the copula am, and is... How about the OP's spelling? On one hand, their spelling looks satisfactory: afternoon, answer, but, bye, english, evening, good, how, quest, read, school, speak, time, understand, what, you. On the other hand, The OP "misspelled" three words: aduelt, pleage, thankes. If they opened dictionaries, then how could they misspell so many words (aduelt, pleage, thankes)? If they opened no dictionaries, then how did they know the correct spelling of so many words as mentioned above? The OP's IP proves they are in the States. If you were in Germany and didn't speak German, would you refer to the German Wikipedia for finding schools that teach German? Even in my homeland I wouldn't refer to Wikipedia, but rather would use Google instead. Much simpler... Eliko (talk) 17:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Is this some kind of conspiracy theory? It's perfectly possible that last part was intended to mean "Please answer my question so that I can [learn to] speak English well" or something, that is, the "bad logic" is only insufficient grammar. Not being a native speaker of any language written in the Latin alphabet is an excellent reason for not knowing the rules of punctuation common (more or less) for languages written in the Latin alphabet, the OP may be used to a completely different punctuation system. It's quite odd to assume that when someone struggles with the syntax of an unfamiliar language, they replace it with a coherent syntax system of their own devising. People are not always consistent. —Emil J. 18:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC) What bothers me the most is the grammar (see my 4th question.) and the spelling (see my 5th question). Eliko (talk) 18:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Seems to me you're subjecting the OP to more scrutiny than you would to native English speakers who spell atrociously and whose grammar makes one want to puke. Why the 3rd degree in this case? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Because what makes me suspect the OP, is not one thing only, but rather an accumulation of several things. Eliko (talk) 10:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC) I agree Jack, a lot of huffing and puffing for no unidentifiable reason. If you think this person is a troll (and I do) then let's say so and leave it. I believe this [1] might be relevant. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 09:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC) I don't think the OP is a troll. I just think that they may be a native English speaker who tried to pretend as if they weren't. That's my opinion. Eliko (talk) 10:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC) "Pretend as if they weren't" - what variety of English is that? Looks like you're a non-native speaker masquerading as a native speaker, Eliko. See, this sort of stuff goes both ways. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC) I'd written something with "as if" (as if they were native English speakers, or something), and then I changed it and added "to pretend", but forgot to delete the "as if". Eliko (talk) 12:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC) We're here to answer the question, not question the OP's motives for asking -- Hidden. Astronaut (talk) 12:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Susan Howatch

Does anyone know why Susan Howatch (English author) has not published any new books since "The Heartbreaker?"Small text —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.109.173 (talk) 03:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

This is the language reference desk. You may want to try asking at the Humanities desk. rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Laissez-passer in English

Is there a corresponding term in English (intelligible to ELF readers) for the borrowed laissez-passer? The context: a document issued to health care personnel for repeat visits to a British detention camp for enemy aliens in WWII. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 07:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Transit permit (although laissez-passer is much more common) Eliko (talk) 07:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard "laissez-passer" here (North America). I think we'd just call it a pass. "Transit" permit sounds like permission to enter a restricted place for getting to the other side, not for getting inside. --Anonymous, 19:40 UTC, August 31, 2010.

Yeah, laissez-passer is less common in Canada, where you were born. I've been referring mainly to US, where the OP was born. Eliko (talk) 20:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't. But I've lived in Canada most of my life. I was guessing it was a British usage. --Anonymous, 02:29 UTC, September 1, 2010.

In the context of the United Nations, a laissez-passer is a travel document like a passport, which in theory enables staff members to cross borders without hindrance. (I have one and it's never been very useful to me, I must admit.) This term is widely understood throughout the UN and there is no corresponding term in English. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 20:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

"On pain of"

As for an adverb "on pain of," can it be used as "on the following pains"?

For exmaple: "Parental authority shall be exercised by both parents. On any of the following pains, parental authority shall be exercised by either parent: (1) Where the other parent is deceased; (2) Where the other parent is placed in a hospital by reason of mental infirmity; (3) ..."

182.52.101.91 (talk) 11:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

"Pain" did mean "punishment" in the 1300s, but this usage is now archaic, so no, it can't. The phrase "on pain of" is a fossil. Marnanel (talk) 11:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking to a point

From time to time, I hear the phrase "I'd like to speak to that point" when someone is about to give their view on an issue. It always sounds strange to me. After all, you're speaking to someone about the point, not speaking to the intangible point/argument. When did this start and why? Is it another example of corporate jargon? Dismas|^(talk) 11:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

"speaking to the point" means not getting lost in (semi-)irrelevant details, but I don't know about "speaking to a point". Rimush (talk) 12:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I've heard it and I agree, it's pointless management speak. They should be saying "speak about that point" or "speak on that point", but it seems those constructions aren't whizzy enough for these jargon freaks. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 20:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to speak to that point. Would you please speak to the motion before the house? Mr X will now address the third question (where address means speak to). So the construction is not limited to the exact phrase, it is a newish use of the preposition to in the same way as meet with or talk with are newish forms. Not universally appoved of, but quite commonly used. --Sussexonian (talk) 18:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The OED says s.v. "Speak", 13e: "To treat of or deal with, to discuss or comment on, (a subject) in speech or writing", and gives examples from 1610. Only moderately newish. --ColinFine (talk) 21:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Motherboards and pigs

Mother and baby pigs

Motherboard with space for daughterboards

1. There's a question on the Computing desk about the word "motherboard", and its relation to "political correctness", in case any of you want to hop over there.
2. But I do have a question. When I first learned about the innards of a computer, back in the eighties, I asked where the terminology of "motherboard" and "daughterboard" came from, and the other person said that it looks like a mother pig with her piglets, which it rather does. Was this just something my interlocutor made up, or was there actually once a standard porcine metaphor? Marnanel (talk) 11:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that might have been a way of illustrating a more mundane explanation. A mother pig is a big pig that has little pigs attached, a mother ship is a big ship that has little ships attached, a motherboard is a big board that has little boards attached (even more so in history, as the article observes). More mysterious to me is why, in biology, parent cells have daughter cells and not child cells. A binary tree has parent nodes and child nodes, but isotopes, languages, and, delightfully, cysts, can all be mothers and daughters. I guess it just sounds more technical. The pig metaphor goes some way to combating accusations of sexism, since if the board is named for the typical situation of a generic female mammal, that raises no moral issues; and it does seem rather unlikely that whoever first named it was thinking "Hey, that piece of electronics resembles a barefoot and pregnant wife with a dozen kids which by the way is a woman's proper role". 81.131.45.95 (talk) 13:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I've always assumed it was 'daughter cells' because of the idea that female is the default, and male is the gender that must be added to go from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. Tied in with the Y chromosome being different to the others, whereas females have a full complement of 'normal' chromosomes. Not advocating this idea, but I assumed that was the thinking. 86.161.108.172 (talk) 17:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was because "son" would be easily confused with "sun" (and that would be especially confusing in reference to computers). Adam Bishop (talk) 19:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Why especially confusing, Adam? Are you referring to Sun Microsystems? They were founded only in 1982, after this terminology was created (btw, that Sun is an acronym for Stanford University Networks). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh. Well, it still could be confusing even if Sun Microsystems was not around, I guess. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Stanford University Networks it is (and I didn't know that) but I always reckoned it was no coincidence that Sun was a couple of years behind Apollo Computer, and looked as if they were watching what worked and what didn't for Apollo. --ColinFine (talk) 21:15, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Senostoma is in French...

I need to ask a big favour, :) I'm working on a genus article, Senostoma, and am struggling to find information, particularly regarding morphology. I finally managed to track down the original 1847 work in which the genus was first described, along with the type species. The catch is that it's in French, and my French is almost but not quite limited to politely telling French speakers that I don't speak French. Due to the technical vocabulary, you can imagine what online translators do for me here.

The document is huge and takes a long time to load (for me, anyway) so I've pasted the text below. Here's a link to the document if you're interested, page 96, Diptères Exotiques.

So you know where this is going . . . could I have a translation, please? I know it's big, but the phrases are short and uncomplicated, mostly, and it's for the good of those lovely parasitoid flies! Perhaps the biology terms will be a little challenging.

(If I get any bites, the article's talk page is fine, to save cluttering the language desk.)

Here is a first attempt, but please regard it as work in progress ...

Proboscis protruding slightly beyond the epistome. Hidden antennae. Facing keel fairly broad with a longitudinal groove ;strongly projecting epistome; extended narrow peristome.

Broad, projecting ... forepart; underside of head is straight. Antennae scarcely reaching half of the forepart ; second segment slightly extended: third segment twice the size of the second; style has short villi. Oblique, naked eyes. Abdomen oval, depressed. Wings: first posterior cell ending close to the extremity ; a small pointed structure at the extremity of the exterior mediastinal (rib). This new genus, with all the characteristics of the dexiae (?), combined with others which are peculiar to it. The projection of the epistome,and the narrow and extended shape of the mouth, gives it a remarkable facies which differentiates it from the other members of this tribe..We were unable to observe ... the proboscis and the antennae. The name of the genus signifies "narrow mouth". The type is from Tasmania.

Ehrenkater (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks in expectation, :P Maedin\^talk 20:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Trompe dépassant un peu l'épislome. Palpes cachés. Face à carène assez large avec un sillon longitudinal ; épistome fort saillant; périslome alongé, étroit. Front large, $, saillant; dessous de la têle droit. Antennes atteignant à peine la moitié de la face ; deuxième article un peu allongé :, troisième double du deuxième; style brièvement velu. Yeux obliques, nus. Abdomen ovale, déprimé. Ailes : première cellule postérieure aboutissant près de l'extrémité ; une petite pointe ù l'extrémité de la nervure médiastine extérieure. Ce nouveau genre , à tous les caractères des Dexiaires, en joint d'autres qui lui sont propres. La saillie de l'épistome, la forme étroite et alongée de la bouche, lui donnent un faciès remarquable qui le rend étranger aux autres membres de celte tribu. Nous n'avons pas pu observer sufBsamraent la trompe et les palpes.

Le nom générique signifie bouche étroite. Le type est de la Tasmanie.

Senostoma variegata, Nob.

Nigra albido pubescens. Abdomine variegato. Tibiis testaceis.

Long. 4 l. • Face et carène fauves ; côtés noirs, à duvet gris. Front : bande noire, à duvet gris ^ côtés gris. Antennes fauves. Thorax à duvet gris et lignes noirâtres. Abdomen tacheté irrégulièrement de noir. Cuillerons blancs. Ailes à base et bord extérieurjaunâtres: un peu de brunâtre au bord des nervures transversales.

(Reply:) French text, corrections in bold:

Trompe dépassant un peu l'épistome. Palpes cachés. Face à carène assez large avec un sillon longitudinal ; épistome fort saillant; péristome alongé, étroit. Front large, ♀, saillant; dessous de la tête droit. Antennes atteignant à peine la moitié de la face ; deuxième article un peu allongé ; troisième double du deuxième; style brièvement velu. Yeux obliques, nus. Abdomen ovale, déprimé. Ailes : première cellule postérieure aboutissant près de l'extrémité ; une petite pointe à l'extrémité de la nervure médiastine extérieure.

Ce nouveau genre , a tous les caractères des Dexiaires, en joint d'autres qui lui sont propres. La saillie de l'épistome, la forme étroite et alongée de la bouche, lui donnent un faciès remarquable qui le rend étranger aux autres membres de celte tribu. Nous n'avons pas pu observer suffisamment la trompe et les palpes.

Le nom générique signifie bouche étroite.

Le type est de la Tasmanie.

Senostoma variegata, Nob.

Only additions I can make to the translation are "Forehead broad, ♀, projecting" (meaning that it is projecting in females, perhaps?) and "we were unable to observe the proboscis and palps sufficiently.". --ColinFine (talk) 21:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

French country names

Why are so many French country names different than the country's English name and its name in its language? Examples: Angleterre (England), Allemagne (Germany/Deutschland), Pays-Bas (Netherlands/Nederland), etc. --75.33.216.97 (talk) 20:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know but I suspect the reason is that each country refers to a nation by its own name - Angleterre means land of the Anglos (see Angleterre. Also see List of country names in various languages. Basically it's not just the French who do this - we call Italy Italy but the Italian's called it Italia. We call their cities different names (Naples vs Napoli, Florence vs Firenze for example). ny156uk (talk) 20:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Most of those examples are somewhat similar to the native languages' versions, but the ones I listed above are completely different. --75.33.216.97 (talk) 21:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

See Names of Germany. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Where did Pays-Bas for the Netherlands come from? --75.33.216.97 (talk) 21:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

From the same place as "the low countries" came from in English. That is still used to refer to the Netherlands, Belgium and surrounding areas collectively. It's all about topography and geography. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The word (more specifically, the name) "Netherlands" means low lands—see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Netherlands&searchmode=none. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Names of countries are just words. Like all words, they vary from language to language, each with its own rich etymology and unique connotations. Paul Davidson (talk) 09:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

"Pays-bas" means "low countries" or "low lands" or ... "nether lands"; "Angleterre" means "land of the Angles" or "Angle land" (sounds familiar ?); "Allemagne" refers to the Alamanni. As for other country names, here's a quick selection of European countries in French, English & native form(s):

Italie/Italy (Italia); Portugal/Portugal (Portugal); Espagne/Spain (España, Espanya); Belgique/Belgium (Belgique, België, Belgien); Suisse/Switzerland (Suisse, Schweiz, Svizzera, Svizra); Pologne/Poland (Polska), Luxembourg/Luxembourg (Luxembourg, Lëtzebuerg), Suède/Sweden (Sverige), Danemark/Denmark (Danmark), Slovaquie/Slovakia (Slovensko), Ukraine/Ukraine (Україна -> Ukrayina)), Biélorussie/Belarus (Беларусь -> Belorussia), Roumanie/Romania (România), Bulgarie/Bulgaria (България -> Balgariya), Hongrie/Hungary (Magyar~).

I can go on and on should that be with country names or regions. Nothing special about the French language here really. Equendil Talk 20:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

A look at the article "Exonym and endonym" explains some of this. — Michael J 21:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Origin of the word "Dutch"

Where does the word "Dutch" come from? Demonyms are generally somewhat similar to their country's name, but "Dutch" sounds nothing like "the Netherlands" or "Holland". --75.33.216.97 (talk) 20:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

See Dutch language#Names - "The origins of the word Dutch go back to Proto-Germanic, the ancestor of all Germanic languages, *þeudiskaz (meaning "national/popular"); a cognate of Old Dutch diets, Old High German duitsch, Old English þeodisc and Gothic þiuda all meaning "(of) the common (Germanic) people". ny156uk (talk) 20:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

See also Names for the Dutch language. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Other words that come from the same root are Teutonic, Deutsch, and Tedesco. Steewi (talk) 09:26, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Words for left and right in european languages

The word for right in many european languages are quite similar (actually I know that two roots are involved the latin dexter=right and the latin directus=straight) - right, droit, derecha, direita, destra, rechts, while the words for left are generally very different - left, gauche, esquerda, izquierda, sinistra and links. Is this all to do with the apparent 'oddness' of left-handedness? Mikenorton (talk) 22:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Gauche comes from a Germanic root (the same as English "weak") and izquierda is from Basque. Maybe it's because "sinister" in Latin developed its, well, more sinister definition, but I'm not sure. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

We have a longish writeup of all this here. Marnanel (talk) 23:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Some of the vocabulary replacement may be due to the so-called Euphemism treadmill... AnonMoos (talk) 03:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Scandinavian languages use different words for both (høyre/höger and venstre/vänster), the Norwegian Wikipedia has an (uncited) etymology from Norse; interestingly without a sinister origin for left (claiming it is related to the word for "friend", "venn", and associated with left being the side of the heart). Jørgen (talk) 17:56, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Cadence?

This prolly isn't the right word. I'll try to describe it. I want to know how sentences go "up and down" For example the English sentence

I am going to the store with my aunt Margaret

when speaking your voice kind of "goes up" at "go-" (as in going) and down from "to" to "store", up again at aunt and down at "-gar-" It's hard to explain! As a native speaker (GA) I know how this works in English sentences, but how do they work in French and Spanish? Thanks. PS: I want to know how this differs between statements and questions too. I know that different sentences might have a few quirks, but I'm just looking for a general outline; I can speak these two languages naturally in short phrases, but it sounds wrong in longer sentences even if my pronunciation is right. Thanks again! 76.229.235.27 (talk) 23:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

It is called "cadence," although it looks like we don't have an article on it yet. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

General linguistic term is intonation... AnonMoos (talk) 03:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Intonation is a good one, but you might also be interested in reading about prosody. Steewi (talk) 09:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Spanish quirk

On the subject of Spanish, why do they sometimes put a feminine definite article and an initial-vowel word together and sometimes not? FOr example: "agua" is a feminine word but you say "el agua" not "la agua". At first I reasoned they didn't want to put two vowels together (like in my more familiar French, you say "mon amie", not "ma amie") But then they have words like "la actividad"! Why do they do this, and how do I know if a particular word does? 76.229.235.27 (talk) 23:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Note that "actividad" is stressed on the final syllable, whereas "agua" is stressed on the first syllable. That was my first hunch, and that's also what this blog writer says:[2] I found that simply by googling ["el agua"]. He gives some examples. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Note also that u is used for o only when the following word has a word-initial stressed o. ¿SFGiДnts! ^{¿Complain! ¿Analyze! ¿Review!} 03:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

For basically the same reason, to avoid slurring words together. Excellent point. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Although a lot of Spanish teachers claim the reason is to prevent slurring/preserve the contrast, the precise reason is etymological: Latin illa ("that" (fem.)) led to the proto-Romance/very early Spanish *ela, which evolved into the Spanish article la. The [e] *ela fell away in all nouns preceded by *ela (e.g. *ela mujer --> la mujer) except those beginning with a stressed [a]. When spoken fluently, noun phrases like *ela agua slurred the [a] but compensated by preserving the [e], so el agua. Therefore, etymologically el as in el agua is just a different another form of la, and it was indeed the slurring that led to this evolution, not avoiding the slurring, which is commonly incorrectly cited as the reason (perhaps because the real reason would just make things more complicated for students, and it makes more sense to tell them "to avoid slurring"). Reference: El Diccionario panhispánico de dudas--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 05:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Awesome. That explains a lot. And I'm guessing that the masculine "el" (and "il" in Italian) also come from that Latin root (in whatever its masculine form would be - "ello" and "ella" probably likewise). Which doesn't explain "le" in French, but that's another story. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The Latin pronoun is "ille" in the masculine and as El aprendelenguas said, "illa" in the feminine, which explains the French (those are also where "il", "elle", "ils", "elles", and "les" come from - actually they technically all come from the accusative forms illum, illam, illas, and illos, and "lui" comes from the dative "illi"). Adam Bishop (talk) 15:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

masc/fem

Just a shot in the dark here, but does any authority have a theory on how masculine and feminine nouns came to be, in Latin in particular? One general observation, about non-living objects anyway, is that feminine often seems to be connected with things created by "Mother Nature", while masculine often seems to be connected with things "man-made". But that doesn't seem to hold true all the time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

There must be an authority about that, but I can't think of one in particular...presumably it goes back to proto-Indo-European. Grammatical gender doesn't always make a lot of sense in Latin though. Trees are feminine but look masculine; sailors and farmers are masculine but look feminine. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Makes perfect sense to me. The Romans wanted to allow English-speaking kids to talk about people other than women when they've learned only the first declension: Nautae agricolas non amant. Deor (talk) 15:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Not linked yet in this discussion: Grammatical gender. Jørgen (talk) 17:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)