Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 July 31

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July 31

Have cognitive scientists explained why it's tedious to not use pronouns?

Everyone knows, intuitively, that it's tedious/disorienting to not intersperse a passage with pronouns -- e.g., "After Jane Smith ate a sandwich, Jane Smith took a walk, where Jane Smith saw Jane Smith's favorite tree next to Jane Smith's favorite house ..." (etc. etc.)

But, I have always wondered -- do we know what causes this feeling? In other words -- why do we have pronouns?

I could venture a guess. Perhaps, some tediousness occurs whenever the brain has to search its memory-archive to identify a word's referent. So, we've evolved the heuristic, that concepts will tend to recur in speech. Pronouns exploit this "shortcut." They inform the brain that it does not need to search its archive to identify what a word is referring to; instead, the brain can just follow the sentence-syntax to help it choose the most appropriate meaning that has already been primed into short-term memory. Conversely, where the speaker does not use a pronoun (in a place where he could), the speaker is about to refer to another, distinct, NEW concept ... and so the brain starts looking through its entire archive to generate an entirely new, distinct referent.

Does any of this have basis in, like, science? Andrew Gradman ^talk/_WP:Hornbook 01:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• P.S. can someone refer me to further reading on the subject? I'm only familiar with Steven Pinker's books. Andrew Gradman ^talk/_WP:Hornbook 01:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Not answering your question, but why did you post a link to this question on the computing desk? Not only does it have nothing to do with computers, we also have strict rules about double-posting questions. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I think he meant science, which is related. Kayau Voting IS evil 03:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Language is not particularly scientific, it's cultural. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Bugs, perhaps you have heard of the disciplines of cognitive science (which has a lot to do with language), or linguistics, or cognitive linguistics? There's a lot of science devoted to studying how language works with the brain, and the question is explicitly asking for a cognitive explanation! (And saying "it's cultural" doesn't get you out of being scientifically studied, either.) --Mr.98 (talk) 13:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

In general, we don't like double posting because it produces two strings of answers; in this case, when it could easily fit under two different reference desks, it's helpful to post at one a request for help at the other. Nyttend (talk) 04:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

It's on the Science desk as well, and people have already started to answer there. This is why we should not have double-posting. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Nyttend, that's what I did! Andrew Gradman ^talk/_WP:Hornbook 05:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

This is probably related to the processing limitations of the mind. it's a well-established fact that people can only hold 7±2 items in short-term memory at any given moment, and that the brain has chunking mechanisms to get around this (for instance, you can talk about 'your family' - one chunk - without having to hold each and every person in your family in mind). not using pronouns is probably unpleasant because each time you use a proper noun (as you say) the mind will try to place it as a separate chunk, and have to backtrack and re-associate it with the original use to conserve resources. I suspect that if you constructed a sentence that used 7+ instances of the same proper name (just like if you constructed a sentence that incorporated 7+ different proper names) readers/listeners would have a tremendously difficult time parsing out the meaning of the sentence. --Ludwigs2 19:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Greek Etymology: Zeuxippe

What does the name Zeuxippe (Ζευξίππη) mean? She's a minor female character in mythology (well, 4 minor characters).

Is the first part related to Zeus (Ζεύς)?

What about the last part? Maybe hippos (ἵππος) -- "horse"? Because the closest name I can find with a translation is Leucippe (Λευκίππη) "white horse"

So... Thanks in advance!! 108.3.173.100 (talk) 04:11, 31 July 2010 (UTC)Rorrima

It's late on Friday night, and I'm tired, and I don't have a source to cite; but I'd say that the first element is related to ζεὐγνυμι ("to yoke")—cf. the related noun ζεῦξις ("a yoking")—so "a yoked horse". (Or rather just "yoke + horse", since combining the roots to make a definite "meaning" is a stretch.) Deor (talk) 04:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I would guess that the originally-intended meaning was more likely to be "horse-yoker". 108.3.173.100 -- the stem of "Zeus" is actually "Di-" (archaic "Diw-"), and "Dio-" is what would generally appear in compounds of the name (e.g. "Dioscuri" etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 05:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Yup, you guys are right. According to [1], Zeuxippe means "she who yokes horses," from zeugos, "yoke of beasts" / "pair of horses," and hippos, "horse." I'll add it to Zeuxippe now. Andrew Gradman ^talk/_WP:Hornbook 06:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! Extra kudos to Andrew for improving Zeuxippe's page. 108.3.173.100 (talk) 18:51, 31 July 2010 (UTC)Rorrima

Chinese bicycle vocabulary and tone confusion

A quick request to Chinese speakers.

I'm a cycle journalist writing a humorous column. To illustrate one point, I need an example of how a foreigner's inability with Chinese tones might cause confusion when trying to buy a bicycle part.

Imagine a hopeless western cyclist (me, say) in a shop, pointing at a tyre (or whatever), and repeating desperately 'zhu! zhu!' (or whatever the syllable is). But because the wrong tone is being used, the assistant doesn't understand, and thinks they're asking for a zebra or a sofabed or a stick of dynamite or something.

Can you suggest an authentic piece of bicycle-part vocabulary whose wrong tones might cause some such entertaining confusion?

Many thanks.

Rob —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.152.233 (talk) 09:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

In Mandarin (remember there are a lot of other languages in "Chinese"): zìxíngchē　（自行車）＝ bicycle. There aren't a lot of words you could confuse this with... lúntāi (轮胎) = tire. Could be mixed up with Lúntái (輪台) which is the name for a county in north-west China. Suǒ　（鎖） = lock, like for a bicycle. It sounds like all the words on this list.Good luck! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.3.173.100 (talk) 19:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

And a foreigner getting the tones wrong could also pronounce one of the words at wikt:suō or wikt:suò instead. +Angr 20:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Just the job - thanks! (And valid point about Chinese/Mandarin/Cantonese etc duly noted)- Rob. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.152.233 (talk) 09:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I know it's for a humorous column, but I will just add that, realistically, both being in a cycle shop and pointing at the object you want will provide ample context to your average Chinese bicycle parts seller whether you get the tones wrong or not. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:09, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Just as a note, 腳踏車 also means bicycle. 單車, though, is incorrect, because this is Cantonese. Kayau Voting IS evil 09:15, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

How is it incorrect? It's perfectly correct Cantonese. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

japanese to english translation please

なんだか疲れて。。。恋、何もの？　眠りたいけどずっと眠れない —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.8.227 (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

'For some reason I am tired..... love, what is that? I want to sleep but have not been able to.' --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)