Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 September 4

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September 4

Danish letter

I want to see if someone here (preferably a native speaker, but anyone fluent or knowledgable will do) can translate the following letter into Danish, or the accompanying dialect spoken near Sakskøbing.

Good Day!
My name is Schyler Raadt, and I live in Texas, United States.
There is an old family story that says our progenitor hails from your very estate!
I hope and plan to someday visit your beautiful town as well as stay at your
Bed & Breakfast.
I have seen the pictures and they are amazing, but nothing is like real-life!
I was wondering, are there any documents concerning this matter, specifically, 
illegitimate children born of local nobility?
Also, are there any portraits of the nobility that once occupied your grand estate?
I want to take this time to send my many thanks to you yourself as well as
the entire people of Denmark.
Your society is an example for the whole world!

Thank you Wikipedians for any help you can provide! schyler (talk) 01:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

If you don't get a translation, I would point out that most adult Danes understand English. Marco polo (talk) 21:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

You could try Google Translate for a rough estimate. Lexicografía (talk) 01:26, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

It would be best just to send the letter in English. It's widely understood and you don't give away the false impression that you'd understand what they write if they reply in Danish... Jørgen (talk) 07:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I can recommend on tradukka, a multilanguage online translation. Gil_mo (talk) 22:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Help Desk Query

Discussions moved from Wikipedia:Help desk#Need a Translation of Kanji
♪ ♫ Wifione ♫ ♪ ―Œ ♣Łeave Ξ мessage♣ 04:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Kanji - Miyazaki The first part of the Kanji, the Surname, says Miyazaki but I don't know what the second part, the First Name, says. So far I've found three possibilities: Miyazaki Shigesaburo Miyazaki Shuichi Miyazaki Takeshi --Arima (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC) The best venue for this would be wp:Reference desk/language, which specialises in er, Language questions!220.101 talk\Contribs03:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC) It's Miyazaki Shigesaburō. Oda Mari (talk) 04:32, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Help desk#Need a Translation of Kanji. Any takers? (already suggested they come here). 220.101 talk^\Contribs 03:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Miyazaki Shigesaburou - Japanese Wikipedia article on him is here. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, KageTora. If you would please, I need to have a Kanji List of IJN Personell DOUBLE-CHECKED against a Translation List of the Names to see if I made some Identification Errors.

Kanji - IJN Personnel

• Isoroku Yamamoto
• Soemu Toyoda
• Mineichi Koga
• Shirō Takasu
• Nobutake Kondō
• Jisaburō Ozawa
• Chūichi Nagumo
• Nishizō Tsukahara
• Shigeyoshi Inoue
• Takeo Kurita
• Gunichi Mikawa
• Seiichi Itō
• Jinichi Kusaka
• Boshirō Hosogaya
• Takeo Takagi
• Kakuji Kakuta
• Matome Ugaki
• Takijirō Ōnishi
• Raizō Tanaka
• Ryūnosuke Kusaka
• Shōji Nishimura
• Sadaichi Matsunaga
• Kiyohide Shima
• Chūichi Hara
• Hiroaki Abe
• Sentarō Ōmori
• Tamon Yamaguchi
• Takatsugu Jōjima/Takatsugu Jyojima
• Ikuzo Kimura
• Masafumi Arima

--Arima (talk) 05:22, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Right, well, I am a bit busy, but I am sure somebody will have a go at it. I am replying so that people know the 'job' is still open. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I looked through them, and they seem to be alright, other than Shigeyoshi Inoue, (井上成美) who I'm not really sure about and is in my opinion possibly wrong. I can't be sure, though - I'm just in the middle of moving and I can't find my dictionary of personal names at the moment. For the same reason, I wouldn't mind if somebody else looked through these as well - as I said, I'm pretty certain the ones other than Inoue are legit, but I can't be 100% sure for some of them. TomorrowTime (talk) 07:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, TT. And Shigeyoshi Inoue's Japanese Wikipedia page is here (with pronunciation shown, as with the other link I gave above). A Google search on the names generally reveals links with their pronunciations, and usually more than one link for each. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's a reading I'd never have expected. At first glance, I'd say it was a female name, not the name of a salty seaman :) So Inoue's name is correct as well. In that case, I'm pretty certain they all fit. TomorrowTime (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

What about Matsunaga? I couldn't find any reliable information on him which is possibly due to the obscurity of his existence on the pacific front. So I'm specifically concerned about whether or not I got his name right. --Arima (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Matsunaga's name definitely reads as Sadaichi. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's the ja.wiki article that confirms it: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/松永貞市 TomorrowTime (talk) 09:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks for all your help guys. My research is complete. The only thing I'm missing now is Kimura's Kanji. --Arima (talk) 10:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Kimura Masatomi - here is the Japanese Wikipedia page. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:28, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

How did British English and American English come to use different quotation marks?

How did British English and American English come to use different (primary) quotation marks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.146.39 (talk) 07:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

British publishers have recently (in the last 50 years) changed the traditional rule that double quotes come first. Many of us in the UK ignore them and prefer the traditional British rule which is the same as the American one. Dbfirs 07:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

This sort of punctuation usage (along with other conventions such as spelling and layout) is more a matter of house style rather than national rules, and the most important consideration is to maintain consistency within an individual work. No-one ever (successfully) set out an official standard for such things (since no-one had the de facto authority to do so), so originally individual writers and printers went with their own judgement. Eventually the majority in each 'national publishing community' somewhat converged in their practices, but every publisher had their own set of preferences and until quite recently most major publishers issued style or house-rule booklets to their authors and editors for guidance (I possess several). Some of these, notably the Oxford University Press's, were published for general (optional) use and became a more generally observed standard, but none constituted "the English/American rules."

Inter-work consistency is obviously important in, say, a series of textbooks or references written by various hands, but is less so in fiction, and most publishers would allow a fiction author to use their own preferred punctuation and other styles rather than the house's default if he/she felt strongly about the matter. Then, too, titles are often individually designed overall to achieve a look consistent with their subject matter (which might be historical romance or futuristic space fiction), and their punctuation style might be modified to fit within this context.

People who frequently read books published on both sides of the Atlantic usually assimilate unconsciously the conventions of spelling, grammar and punctuation of a particular work in its first few pages and thereafter don't consciously notice them, just as one is not normally confused by different people speaking in different regional accents. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 10:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Two passages in Dutch

I have difficulty in understanding the following:

"Sommige Etruskische steden raken op de achtergrond, andere komen op. Zeker voerde Etrurie zelden of nooit als natie -wat het niet was-of als federatie- wat het ook niet was -oorlog". ...

Some Etruskan cities move into the background, while others emerge. It is certain that Etruria rarely or never went to war as a nation - which it wasn't - or as a federation - which it wasn't either.

"Afgebeeld zijn o.a. een gebonden man genaamd Caile Vipinas die bevrijd wordt een zekere Macstrna. Zijn broer Aule Vipinas doorsteekt een tegenstander en op een andere schildering wordt Cneve Tarchu Rumach...gedood door een andere aanvaller uit Vulci.

Pictured are a.o. a bound man named Caile Vipinas who is freed by a certain Macstrna. His brother Aule Vipinas stabs an opponent and in another painting Cneve Tarchu Rumach is killed by another attacker from Vulci.

Ondanks de vele raadsels die blijven, krijgt toch Claudius' versie van de Tarquinius servius Tullius affaire vastere grond onder de voeten, temmeer omdat een te Veii (en dat is veel dichter bij Rome) gevonden vaas een inscriptie draagt: Avile Vipiennas. ... De pikante mogelijkheid dat macstrna niets anders is dan een Etruskisering van de Romeinse titel 'magister'... opent duizeliingwekkende vergezichten".

Despite the riddles that remain, Claudius's version of the Tarquinius Servius Tullius affair is on more solid groud, even more so because a vase found in Veii (which is much closer to Rome) carries an inscription: Avile Vipienas. The engaging possibility that Macstrna is nothing but an Etruskisation of the Roman title "magister" opens dazzling views.

...

Wie de Romeinse verovering van Etrurie puur beschrijft als mensen werk, vergeet -wat de Romeinse historiographie in tal van legenden heeft verwoord- dat Etrurie's ondergang en Rome's opkomst volgens de antieke opvatting bovennatuurlijk bepaald waren. ...

Those who describe the Roman conquest of Etruria as the work of humans forget - what Roman historiography has put into words in many legends - that Etruria's demise and Rome's rise were according to the antique views supernaturally decided.

De reeds eerder genoemde Aulus Vibenna was na zijn dood nog niet uitgesproken. ....

The above mentioned Aulus Vibenna had not finished speaking after his death.

Andere bronnen verduidelijken de zaak: het hoofd heet "Caput Oli", deze Olus was niemand anders dan Aulus Vibenna, het hoofdt wordt gevonden tijdens het funderen van de tempel op het Capitool, de uitleg van prodigium werd gegeven door een Etrurier.

Other sources clarify the matter; The head is named "caput Oli", this Olus was none other than Aulus Vibenna, the head is found during the laying of the foundations of the temple on the capitol, the explanation of "prodgium" is geven by an Etrurian.

Sorry for the length and thank you for your help.Zanzan32 (talk) 07:48, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Entymology of "-ish"

What is the entymology of the English suffix "-ish"? Is it related to the colloquial usage in the UK meaning "sort of", "somewhat" or "a bit"? --Rixxin (talk) 11:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, 1983 edition has "-ish, adjective suffix signifying somewhat... or like or similar to... sometimes implying deprecation" and gives the root as the Old English suffix -isc. The colloquial usage simply shews that it is still a productive suffix. DuncanHill (talk) 11:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

It's cognate with ancient Greek -isk-os, as in "Meniscus"... AnonMoos (talk) 12:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

According to The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots the relevant root is *-(i)ko-, which also, through various routes, gave rise to a number of other English adjectival suffixes, such as -y, from OE -ig; -ic, from Latin -icus and Greek -ikos; and -esque, proximally from Italian but derived from a Germanic root. Related is the Slavic -sky seen in English coinages such as brewsky and Russky, as well as such names as Dostoyevsky and Tchaikovsky. Deor (talk) 12:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

@Rixxin: just FYI, what you are asking about is called etymology. Entomology is the study of insects. rʨanaɢ (talk) 12:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

According to the SOED: ORIGIN Old English -isc corresp. to Gothic -isks, Old Norse -iskr, Old High German, Old Saxon, Old Frisian -isc, German, Dutch -isch, from Germanic: cogn. with Greek -iskos dim. suffix of nouns.

Is it related to the colloquial usage ... meaning "sort of", "somewhat" or "a bit"? Probably. SOED includes: (d) colloq. from names of hours of the day or numbers of years, with the sense ‘round about, somewhere near (the time or period of)’, as elevenish, fortyish. Wiktionary also agrees with this. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

According to my Webster's, "-ish" comes from "-isc" and means "of, or relating to, or being". Taking it in that way, words like "English" and "childish" and "bookish" and "elevenish" all really have the same concept in mind. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Who was it who denied he was a Jew, but admitted to being Jew-ish? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

It was Jonathan Miller, in Beyond the Fringe. DuncanHill (talk) 09:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, thanks. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Latin

Did any sounds exist in latin (any variety short of proto-Romance) that do not exist in modern English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.230.146.8 (talk) 15:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Greek y, when they pronounced it the Greek way; Z may also have been /ts/ or /dz/, although I guess we do have those combinations of sounds too. English vowels, well at least in the kind of English I speak, tend to be diphthongized (/e/ is usually /ej/, etc), but Latin didn't do that. I also remember learning that the R is "trilled" but I'm not exactly sure what that was supposed to mean, since there are at least three different R sounds in European languages that I can think of. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

By the way, for more info about this, see Latin spelling and pronunciation, pronunciation of contemporary Latin (i.e. the way we learn it now, according to the most likely classical rules), and the traditional English pronunciation of Latin. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Word-final unstressed vowel + m sequences were actually nasalized vowels in the ordinary colloquial pronunciation of the empire period... AnonMoos (talk) 03:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Compass directions

When an English speaker says "southwest", he/she places north-south first. But in many other languages, east and west comes first. According to Wikipedia's links to compass direction articles of various languages, I learned:

• N-S first languages: da, de, es, fr, nl, no, pt, sk, sv (all European languages) and ja
• W-E first languages: zh
• I can't tell: cs, et, fi, pam, and pl

It's interesting that Chinese language is the only language I know that places W-E first. Japanese language places N-S first. I have no idea as to Korean and Vietnamese languages.

How do cultures order north-south and east-west?

How do they order front-rear and left-right? -- Toytoy (talk) 16:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Hungarian fits the "N-S first languages". There are more interlanguage links to cardinal direction possibly leading you to some more answers. Rosa ventorum the Latin version of compass rose shows several interesting roses, where the intermediate directions have their own special names. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Side note - remember that many smaller languages from premodern cultures don't have a cultural analogue to N/E/S/W. Steewi (talk) 04:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It's N-S first for all other Slavic languages I know or figured out from WP's links (cs, pl, ru, sh, bg).—Emil J. 12:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Asterisk and interpretation

Hello,

Newsweek's recent US issue, Sep 6, 2010, says this on the cover in stark red and white lettering against a black background:

The making of a terrorist-coddling warmongering wall street-loving socialistic godless muslim president*

and then beneath, it says in small lettering:

* who isn't actually any of those things

In English, doesn't this mean that Newsweek says he isn't actually the President, because of where the asterisk is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lantern Red (talk • contribs) 22:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

If one reads it super-literally, yes it could mean that. But consider the alternative: if the asterisk was placed after 'muslim', the meaning would still be unclear, as it would not be certain which of the preceding "those things" it included. Presuming it's referring to Obama, nobody in their right mind would be unaware he's the president (although some deny he's the legitimate president) - so I think it's fair enough to put the asterisk where it is, in the certain knowledge that nobody would read it to mean that his de facto presidency is being denied (even if his de jure presidency is denied, by some). After all, there'd be no point in calling someone a 'warmongering president', for example, if they did not first accept he was the president. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:17, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

In any case, 'not actually any of those things' means '[he] is actually none of those things', with 'those' referring to all of the nouns/adjectives in the sentence preceding the asterisk. Simple as that. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Which would be the super-literal interpretation to which I referred in my opening sentence. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd parse it as " The making of a [adjectives] [noun]*", "*to whom none of those adjectives apply" . I don't think I would have taken it to be de-presidentifying him until you mentioned that. Lexicografía (talk) 01:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, he isn't the making of a president. He is a president. There's a difference there. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Right. The "making of" refers to the adjectives, not the noun. Lexicografía (talk) 12:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Not so sure about that -- it's an allusion to the famous old Theodore H. White books: The Making of the President, 1960 etc. AnonMoos (talk) 15:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

That book is about the 1960 election which made JFK president. He wasn't president during the election. Actually, is the article in Newsweek about how Barack Obama became president, or is it something else? This has not been made clear from the start, unfortunately. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes; I was only referring to this particular sentence. Lexicografía (talk) 16:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, thinking about this again, the word 'who' in the second sentence refers back to the word 'president', meaning he must be the president in order for the second sentence's statement that the [other] words in the first sentence are not true be true. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Another answer to the original question is "No, because this is language, not logic, and pragmatics are at least as important as grammar in understanding language. --ColinFine (talk) 19:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)