Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 September 28

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September 28

Problems with the 's

Hi everybody! (yeah I love the Backstreet Boys but that's other thing), well, now serious, I'm having issues with the following; I saw a Columbine documentary (Zero Hour) and I didn't understand this: In a part it says "Eric Harris's house"... why another "S" If the surname already has an S?. Thank you all!. Hope to have been clear. --CoryGlee (talk) 20:17, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Most of us would say "Eric Harrises House", and "Harris's" is the way to write it so it doesn't look like a plural. SinisterLefty (talk) 20:29, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See Apostrophe#Singular nouns ending with an "s" or "z" sound. Including the "extra" s is a common practice, recommended by many style manuals—including ours. After all, most people say [ˈhærɪsɪz haʊs], not [ˈhærɪs haʊs]. Deor (talk) 20:31, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

(ec)We were always taught to spell it Harris' hence omitting the second s, though pronounced like Harrises. But you often see it Harris's as well. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:33, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

That seems as silly as spelling a word Worcester and saying it "Wooster". SinisterLefty (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Or spelling a word forecastle and saying it "folks'll". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:14, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Some folks'll say it that way, some won't. SinisterLefty (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you all for your quick(est) responses!, you've been rather than clear! --CoryGlee (talk) 20:35, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

But note "Socrates' plays", "Achilles' heel" etc. This is possibly the only instance of a rule in English that allows you to spell it as you would say it.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:09, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

It's "Achilles heel" according to the main references at WP's own article, although that itself gives both versions and is titled with an apostrophe. Bazza (talk) 12:30, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

St James's Park in London is a well known example of the "s's" construction. Alansplodge (talk)

Our article also uses "Achilles's" at several points. --Khajidha (talk) 15:19, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

According to our article that Deor linked to above, Achilles is an exception to the general rule because "Classical, biblical, and similar names ending in a sibilant, especially if they are polysyllabic, do not take an added s in the possessive". CodeTalker (talk) 19:39, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Dropping the apostrophe is also sometimes done with words not ending in "s". Two examples that come to mind are Pikes Peak and Popeyes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:07, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

In the style guides I used to consult as a professional editor, the default advice was to use –s's if the –s of the word was pronounced "s" (thus giving "–esez"), but –s' if it was pronounced "z", (to avoid "–ezez").

However, more subtle consideration may also come into play. For example, Hart's Rules (OUP 39th Ed 1983, pp 31–2) devotes two full pages to the question, and advises –s's for all mono- and di-syllables, and longer words with the stress on their penultimate syllable, unless they're classical (i.e. Latin (Mars' ) or Greek (Herodutus' )) or Biblical names (James' ) which traditionally take –s' . French names however (it says) should always (in English text) take –'s because, however spelled, their last letters are not pronounced (so Rabelais's). With institutions and place names, all bets are off as they do or do not use apostrophes on a case-by-case basis, so you just have to check them individually in/on an authoritative publication or map. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.161.82 (talk) 20:18, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

See also Apostrophe#Nouns_ending with silent s, x, or z and English possessive#Nouns and noun phrases. It seems that "s's" is less acceptable in American English than in the British and Commonwealth forms. Alansplodge (talk) 21:50, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Eh, this American always puts 's on possessives. All these complicated exceptions are just silly. And you don't have to pronounce it if you don't want.--Khajidha (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

I (American) think the "s's" form is ugly. I use it only on WP. There is no need to reproduce the pronunciation in the written form. Jmar67 (talk) 07:33, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

I adopt the natural approach, where the pronunciation dictates the spelling. If you would naturally say "Brahms's symphonies", then write that. If you would naturally say "Brahms' Lullaby", then write that. But never write "Brahm's Lullaby". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)