Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 July 6

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July 6

Floreat Castellum

There is a fanfiction writer with this pseudonym.[1] Can anyone translate it? I was able to find the Latin words in Wiktionary but I think what I got misses some nuance. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:3E20:0:0:0:9D5F (talk) 02:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC) Added: I'm thinking something like "let the castle bloom/flourish", where the castle is Hogwarts', since the person writes Harry Potter stories. Does that sound right? 2601:644:8501:3E20:0:0:0:9D5F (talk) 03:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Why no just ask the writer: the Bio includes contact details. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

That sounds correct. Floreat is the 3rd person singular praesens coniunctivus of floreo, to flower, flourish, of plants but figuratively also other things. Castellum is the nominativus or accusativus singular of castellum and means castle or fortress or any other fortified place, or maybe refuge. So it means "May the fortress flourish," or something equivalent. Normally, in Latin, the verb is put at the end (although native English speaking writers of Latin tend to use SVO order), but I don't think the inversion is significant. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Eton's motto is of course Floreat Etona, and there is the painting Floreat Etona!. DuncanHill (talk) 08:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

And there's Floreat Magdalena. Bazza (talk) 10:21, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

There is also a magazine named Floreat Castellum,^[2] associated with the Castle Junior Common Room of University College, Durham, nicknamed "Castle", referring to Durham Castle located on its grounds.  --Lambiam 11:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

And what we heard at the recent coronation: Vivat Regina Camilla! [3] (at 12:10) - a fairy tale in the true sense of the word [4]. The presence of a Church of England minister has been a necessary element of a valid royal wedding for more than a thousand years, and a sacrament has been efficacious the first time it is performed for twice that. 78.146.99.84 (talk) 13:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Or to translate that into English, Floreat is the 3rd person singular present subjunctive of floreo, to flower, flourish, of plants, but figuratively also other things. Castellum is the nominative or accusative singular of castellum and means castle or fortress or any other fortified place.

ColinFine (talk) 18:41, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Nominative case, in this particular phrase. AnonMoos (talk) 20:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

(From OP) thanks all. I saw the author bio page but the contact address is on Tumblr which is some kind of social media hellhole where I didn't want to make an account. 2602:24A:DE47:BAE0:A571:3763:7E69:EEC5 (talk) 07:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

enclosure

hi, what is the meaning of enclosure in the next phrase:

The animals seemed to have an instinctive trust and actual attraction to him. There in his animal enclosure, we saw his inevitable power over its many residents — foxes, badgers, hares, squirrels, weasels, an eagle, eagle owl, hawk, capercaillie and black game.

Is it possible that the painter was an owner of a little zoo? טל ומטר (talk) 15:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

An enclosure is just a secure, probably fenced area where he keeps his animals so they can't escape. --Viennese Waltz 16:01, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

(ec) Bruno_Liljefors#Style suggests that he indeed kept animals. So, why do we have to figure out the name of the painter ourselves? Is this a game, do I get a prize? --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. טל ומטר (talk) 17:42, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

It's a Black Game, it seems. An unusual way to say black grouse. (Orrspel, grouse-game, in Swedish.) I question how it's possible to keep foxes, badgers, weasels and several raptors in the same enclosure as hares, squirrels, and grouse, for more than a day or two.  Card Zero  (talk) 01:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

The Swedish seems to have been mixed up. Spel means game for play in Swedish, not game for prey, and in orrspel, spel refers to courtship display or lek. (Otherwise, spel and lek are near-synonyms which both could mean somewhat like game for play.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:28, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I hadn't even seen the "game" in the question. That's not what I meant, I was just wondering whether OP was playing a game with us. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Or maybe I just missed the joke... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Questions

1. Is there any Romance language with back unrounded vowels (including /ɑ/)?
2. Is ther a language with one open vowel with /a/ definitely a back vowel? I have thought that in prototypical five-vowel system, /a/ is a back unrounded vowel and there are no central vowels in such system.
3. Is there any Romance language with two open vowels?
4. Is there any Germanic language which has long vowels in unstressed syllables?
5. Can pronouns it and they be used as demonstrative pronouns like Finnish se and ne? Like se auto -> it car; ne autot -> they cars.
6. Is there any Mongolic language written in Latin alphabet?
7. Does any language uses special letters (with diacritics) in naming in either columns or rowns in map with grid which helps users to find the place?
8. Does Spanish have dark L? --40bus (talk) 16:58, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• 5. I would interpret that as a possessive it[s] car or the[ir] cars. But Cornish dialect mentions they as a demonstrative adjective – they books, so apparently it is possible in at least one variety of English. --Amble (talk) 18:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

1,3: French has /a/, /ɑ̃/ and /ɑ/ (the last may be missing in some dialects). If you consider /ɑ/ unrounded, that's yes on 1. It's also yes on 3. PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:16, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

2: Consider this. The standard value of a vowel can be defined as a single point on the vowel chart, but an actual realisation of that vowel is already a fuzzy area on the chart. When you extend this to an idiolect, a dialect and ultimately a language, that fuzzy area gets ever larger. If a language has only a single open vowel, chances are that the fuzzy area extends the entire width of the vowel chart, making any open vowel a valid realisation of this vowel; no more point in discussing front versus back. There's no need to make the invalid areas on the vowel chart any larger than necessary to avoid confusion. Larger fuzzy areas allow for less precise and faster speech. PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

4: What is a long vowel? Dutch has no phonemic vowel length (most dialects at least), but in some environments vowels get usually pronounced a bit longer than in other environments. There are also vowels traditionally called long, others short. The short ones can also be called lax or checked, the long ones tense or free. Now consider the words vóórkomen (to occur) and voorkómen (to prevent; in both cases the stress marks are optional), which only differ in stress. The first o, the one spelled double, tends to be a little longer than the second because it's followed by an r. Traditionally, both are considered long. In one word, only the first is stressed, in the other, only the second. PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:46, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

It has. The word taal has long vowel and the word tal has short vowel. The words differ only in vowel length. --40bus (talk) 11:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I think that technically, the distinction is vowel quality rather than vowel length, in Modern Dutch. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Taal is /tal/ and tal is /tɑl/ and any length difference, if present, is not considered phonemic, neither in standard Dutch, nor in standard Flemish. Although I can't rule out any dialects using the same quality for these vowels, but a difference in length. But if you call the a in taal long (and traditionally, it is, because there usɑed to be a length difference in pronunciation, now only present in spelling), you almost answered your own question: long vowels van be unstressed in Dutch. Take the word spreektaal (colloquial language), stressed on the first syllable. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

The phonology table and all IPA transcriptions I have seen include a length colon (:) in taal. Thus, it cannot be left out. Swedish tal is also [tɑ:l] definitely, not [tɑl]. --40bus (talk) 19:53, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

#2 contains so many errors it's unintelligible. Are you asking if there is a language with an open back unrounded vowel and no other open vowels? Nardog (talk) 22:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Linguistic term

I am translating an article from French and need an English word that's probably in my recognition vocabulary but that I can't quite seem to remember.

Basically, no fairies are involved in the history of the castle. It was in ruins from the 11th to the 16th centuries and it seems that "défait" (ruined) became "des fées" (of the fairies). The word "elide" keeps coming to mind but I don't think that's right. Suggestions welcome.

PS - Before someone points this out, yes, I am aware that the draft still contains untranslated French, and needs more references. Elinruby (talk) 21:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Metanalysis? Nardog (talk) 22:16, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Folk etymology... AnonMoos (talk) 23:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Mondegreen? -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 23:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

If it's a verb you want, taken for is all over the rebracketing article (which is the same article as Nardog's metanalysis). Perhaps mistaken for is clearer. I note that derive has the same vowel pattern as elide, so perhaps that's what was on the tip of your tongue. Or how about misconstrue? That means to parse wrongly. Ooh, or conflate. In fact Wiktionary gives that as the third meaning of elide, with a usage note: The third sense, “conflate”, seems to be a recent development. It is not recognized by dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster and can be considered to be incorrect. The reference there to this phonetics blog belonging to John C. Wells is worth reading. One of the commenters makes a connection to Elision (French), where (in the process of cutting a vowel out) two distinct items are joined together.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone responding. I looked up "ellide" before I came here, and the vowel did not get cut out, so that's not it. Instead, over the course of a 500-year period, "day-feh" became "deh fay", if that helps. And yeah, this is etymology, or toponymy, but what's the word for the vowels getting blurred that way? I haven't done much before now with the early history of (specifically) eastern France, but given the location it's pretty likely that the area was invaded a few times, if that sparks a neuron somewhere...maybe foreign Flemish incomers mispronouncing? (my unsourced speculation, and sort of off-topic since I am looking for a technical term that is a type of language drift, but maybe looking at it that way will give someone an idea) Thanks for any further brainpower applied to this question. I am going to go take a look at that blog and maybe click some see also links... Elinruby (talk) 02:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Mondegreen and metanalysis look useful for the explanation of where the name came fro, although neither is the word I'm going trying to remember. It's not drift either. That article is pretty technical but assuming I understand it, it describes the process that gives us false friends in translation. Thanks all, suggestions still welcome Elinruby (talk) 08:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

There's Metathesis (linguistics) and Quantitative metathesis.  Card Zero  (talk) 11:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the technical term is false splitting (for défait → des fées). The opposite transformation (des fées → défait) is called juncture loss.  --Lambiam 12:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

"Basically, no fairies are involved in the history of the castle." Are you quite sure? The little people might have something to say.

  Faeries, come take me out of this dull world,
  For I would ride with you upon the wind,
  Run on the top of the dishevelled tide,
  And dance upon the mountains like a flame.

― W. B. Yeats, The Land of Heart's Desire MinorProphet (talk) 00:32, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Yep. Pretty sure the chansons de geste would have mentioned that. They do say there was a magic steed, though <g> And thanks for the Yeats, I needed that Elinruby (talk) 02:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

To address the original question, this sort of mistaken evolution of words is often called "corruption" - see Collins Thesaurus: Corruption: "3 (noun) in the sense of distortion. Definition: an unintentional or unauthorized alteration in a text or data".

It gives an example: The name `Santa Claus' is a corruption of `Saint Nicholas'.

We also have on Wikipedia:

• The English name, dandelion, is a corruption of the French dent de lion meaning "lion's tooth".
• Wingaersheek Beach: According to the USGS the name is a corruption of the'earlier Dutch name "Wyngaerts Hoeck".
• The track was called Route du Roi, French for King's Road, which was eventually corrupted into "Rotten Row".

Alansplodge (talk) 20:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

thank you all. On deeper reading of the answers here, I think you guys have given me enough vocabulary to explain what happened, so I am calling this question well-answered. I still have this can't-quite-remember feeling but there's no reason to believe that the elusive term on the tip of my tongue would be better or even correct at all. I appreciate everyone's time. Elinruby (talk) 00:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

It appears to be a mistranscription - an example of one sound that can be written in two ways. To give an example of a corruption - the Portuguese for St James is Santo Iago. This may be shortened to Sant'Iago. But then someone came along and invented a completely different persona - São Thiago. 2A00:23C7:A103:CF01:F40E:89FF:FD2F:57D (talk) 12:03, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Another example is Court of Pie Powder. 2A00:23C7:A103:CF01:F40E:89FF:FD2F:57D (talk) 12:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Also Beefeater, said to be from buffetier. Alansplodge (talk) 12:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Isn't false splitting the term that fails to roll of your tongue?  --Lambiam 13:45, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Actually I was clicking around on this some more last night, and verlan jumped out at me as a word I at least recognized but hadn't seen in years. So that was probably it. Yes, I am weird. No, it isn't a linguistic term, or correct; I have only ever encountered it as a kind of thieves' cant, analogous to Cockney rhyming slang. False splitting is indeed correct, on the other hand, since one word became two. Some of the other suggestions may help explain the reversed position of the vowel sounds.

The article thanks you. (I guess this part would not be a translation, since it isn't in the French. It is common for a translation from French Wikipedia to need additional work.) Elinruby (talk) 18:37, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Verlan, just like gayle and polari etc. is the name of a particular cant variety. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:48, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and it specifically inverts the order of syllables, although it isn't a perfect match for the process in this case either, since the consonants remained in place. But I think that was the nagging not-quite-memory that was trying to surface. I encountered verlan when I was reading Louis-Ferdinand Céline, who is known for this sort of wordplay, and yes, that was quite some time ago. Thank you for the mentions of another two types of cant, and the corruption examples, as I am interested. So the Reference desk has given me some words I needed, and also, more indirectly, answered the more difficult question of what it was that I could not remember. With some Yeats thrown in for gorgeousness. Well done all around. Elinruby (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Switching around the vowels makes me think of spoonerism. CodeTalker (talk) 00:38, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Depending on the speaker, the difference may not be large. Listen to French speakers pronouncing as /de/ and as /defe/.  --Lambiam 10:09, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

In Quebec, for example, the sound of the final syllable of "défait" and "des fées" is very different, but in many parts of France, that phonetic distinction doesn't exist. Xuxl (talk) 17:10, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Add to that a few centuries of playing telephone. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)