Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/June 2006

June 1

más que

In Spanish, can this mean 'even if' or 'even then'? ( as in Tagalog- 'maske' or 'maske na')?--Jondel 00:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep. --Chris S. 01:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see this in the dictionary. I can say 'Más que vivo (vive?) en Japon, no significa que hablo/e japones.'  ?(Even if I live in Japan, this doesn't mean I can speak Japanese.) (feel free to correct)or 'Más que sea el presidente/dueño, no significa que no necessita trabajar.' (Even if I/he am the president/owner, this doesn't mean, I/he does'nt have to work.)--Jondel 01:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the short reply earlier, was in a hurry. Anyway, I don't use the construction myself, I prefer aunque. But I think it's used por más que + subjunctive. So, por más que viva en Japón, no significa que hablo japonés. However, I'd say aunque vivo en Japón, no hablo japonés. Since I am not a native speaker, I suggest checking with one just to make sure. And I guess for some reason, we Filipinos simply removed the por and just used más que. --Chris S. 06:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Chris.--Jondel 07:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Por más que + subjunctive is better translated "No matter how much...." For example, "Por más que se esfuerce, nunca podrá mover la peña." = "No matter how much he tries, he'll never be able to move the boulder."--El aprendelenguas 20:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks El aprendelenguas.--Jondel 09:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

English for Maths

Do you say:

1. The "number" or "numbers" of students who like different sports is/are given as: 23,40,33 etc..

3. The bar graph shows the "number" or "numbers" of students in 5 different classes.

4. Let's compare the "number" or "numbers" of tourists in three holiday resorts.

An authority says it is "number" but I think it's "numbers" in each case. How do you decide?

I think they mean different things (although I can't quite articulate what the difference is...hmm). Adam Bishop 03:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Number of" sounds OK to me. The fact that the second part of your sentences includes a plural doesnt matter. (Thats what you mean, isnt it?) Jameswilson 03:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd use "numbers/are" in 1. (you're actually citing the numbers in the sentence), and "number" in 3. and 4. (to emphasise that for each class/resort you're discussing a singular number). That said, I speak EngEng; I know AmE has different rules for plurals. -- EdC 01:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's "numbers", definitely. There's more than one number in each of your 3 examples.

• In example (3), if you drew the bar graph you'd write the word number along one axis, but when talking about the graph you'd say "The bar graph shows the numbers of students in 5 different classes".
• In example (4), you're not talking about an aggregate tally of all the tourists in the 3 resorts, but the number in each resort separately. That means you're comparing 3 different numbers with each other. There have to be at least 2 things for any comparison to be made. You can't refer to those things as "the number".JackofOz 04:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Either is fine, but 'number' would be short for 'number in each class/resort'. Henry^Flower 09:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

i'm plumping with the "authority" - regardless of how many students there are (in all cases) the number representing them is still singular. e.g you dont say "the numbers 50" but i doubt anyone would pull you up on it 87.194.20.253 19:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"We play three sports in this school: hockey, baseball and tennis."

• "The number of students who play these sports is 75". That's a tally of all the students who play some form of sport, whether it be 1, 2, or all 3 sports. That's only a single number.
• BUT "The numbers of students who play these sports are 20, 30 and 40 respectively". That's a separate tally for each sport, and there are 3 numbers. This is what Q.1 was about. JackofOz 01:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. We haven't arrived at any conclusion though. :)

This comes by way of a COP (now University of the Pacific) Honors Graduate; High School Math and Music Teacher, and Junior College Math Teacher. He also writes test problems for a well known publisher.

His reply to your question, as written -

If you are referring to one number, use the singular, "number".

If you are referring to more than one number, us the plural, "numbers".

Katiebugggg13 00:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Quite a few

Means a lot right? I proofread Japanese to English translations and this caused a lot of trouble since my Japanese boss's were insisting this meant 'quite few'.--Jondel 04:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it means "a lot", and paradoxically almost the same thing as "quite a lot". It certainly means more than "few" or "a few". Btw, there's no such recognised English idiom as "quite few". If you wanted to stress that it was a small number and no more, maybe you'd say "only a few". JackofOz 04:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd disagree with you there. "Quite few" is a recognised English idiom. It tends to be more English English though. Example: "Altough we were quite few in number, we managed to beat them soundly." It's probably not wise to use it much though, as "quite a few" is more common, and it's easy to slip an "a" in.--SeizureDog 05:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. JackofOz 05:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks SeizureDog and JackofOz.--Jondel 07:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

No mention of "heaps" Jack? Just something I've been wondering about for a while now. Do you have some sort of translation software that you use to translate Australian into English or do you actually speak the way you write?

I actually have a VERY good friend down in Sydney with whom I chat with as much as possible. I've known her for some 10 years now, but she never ceases to surprise me with that unsual Aussie fascination with both diminutives and downright peculiar sounding Australian inventions (probably borrowed from Aboriginal languages). She's a musician who plays the "Clarry", goes to "Uni" and loves to "willywogga" in the "gandaloo" in her spare time. (Ok, so I made up the last two). Loosen up and speak a little Aussie once in a while, Jack! You're beginning to make me suspect that you're actually a "Pom"! Loomis51 05:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

FWLIW, neither "clarry" nor "uni" is peculiarly Australian; I've heard both in natural conversation between native Poms at home in Pomgolia. 85.210.4.124 14:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronouncing Japanese

I'm moderately new to Japanese and I'm trying to make sure I have the pronunciation as good as possible, at least until I can meet a real Japanese person to help. Most of it is pretty straightforward, but I have a couple of rather subtle issues/questions.

1. The Japanese "R": Japanese phonology describes it as "a lateral apical postalveolar flap," which is fine - I've taken enough linguistics courses to grasp that concept. But it also says that to English speaking ears it sounds "most like d before /i/, and most like l before /o/" and among Japanese speakers I've noticed what sounds like various pronunciations before various vowels. So, ignoring the effect of dialect, are there real differences here and what are they?
2. The Japnese /s, z/: The article describes them as laminal, and my textbook as "pronounced further forward in the mouth," but I'm not sure how this differs from General American. Though raised in central Alabama my default accent is General American, and I could swear I pronounce those phonemes as laminal alveolar fricatives. Am I missing something, or do I perhaps just have an idiosyncratic English pronunciation (or is this a "got to hear it to be sure")?
3. The Japanese "shi" and "chi": Though that's how we're told to pronounce them, I notice that the chart at Japanese phonology doesn't list a voiceless postalveolar fricative or a voiceless postalveolar affricate. Is "shi" then a voiceless alveolar affricate, or what's really going on here?

Thanks for all your help. --George 06:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The only part of your question I can answer is (3). The Japanese "shi" and "chi" are an alveolo-palatal fricative and affricate respectively: they're on the chart at Japanese phonology as ɕ, tɕ. Angr (talk) 09:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That's tremendously helpful. Thanks very much. --George 16:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

translation to english from german.

I have bought a chocolate named "MACADAMIA NUSS". All text on it is written in german which I dont understand. I am reproducing the part of text which I think is about its ingredients. Can someone please help me out by translating the text, which I think is German, to english (What does its name mean?).

Thank you in advance.

The text is as follows:

--Start of text--

Zuaten: Zucker, Kakaobutter, Vollmilchpulver, Macadamia-Nüsse (10%), Kakaomasse, Milchzucker, Haselnüsse, Magermilchpulver, Emulgator: Sojalecithin, Malzextrakt, Aroma.

Kann Spuren von Mandeln enthalten.

Kakao: 30% mindestens in der Milch-Schokolade.

--End of text--

There may be a spelling mistake or two. If you find any kindly ask me to retype the word. I want to know if any of the ingredients contains egg as I am a pure vegetarian. I wish to make it clear if before I enjoy the chocolate.

P.S.: It is Swiss Made.

--Siddhant 10:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't contain egg, but it does contain milk, so if you're a vegan you'll have to give it to someone else. (E-mail me for my private address where you can mail the chocolate to.) It says: "Sugar, cocoa butter, powdered whole milk, macadamia nuts (10%), cocoa solids, lactose, hazelnuts, powdered skim milk, emulsifier soy lecithin, extract of malt, flavorings. May contain traces of almonds. Cocoa: At least 30% in the milk chocolate." Angr (talk) 10:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And it's called "macadamia nut". — QuantumEleven 11:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Pain in the sitter

Hi everyone! In the French Wikipedia, somebody is asking us what a "pain in the sitter" means in English. Is that like a "pain in the ass" or something completely different and much more formal? :) Thank you very much.

Not at all different, and not at all formal. :) Henry^Flower 13:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your answer. It helps us a lot :)

I have never heard the word "sitter" as a euphemism for "ass," although in this context this is its obvious meaning. Much more likely is a typo; the word "shitter" is frequently used in this sense and "pain in the shitter" is undoubtedly just a vulgar adaptation of "pain in the ass."

Origin and meaning of expression "ripped and snorted."

I have always heard the term "ripped and snorted" as praise for tearing into a project and getting it done. (Example: Well now, you have just ripped and snorted on this paint job!) Friends say "ripped and snorted" comes from horse racing, as does the term "ripping and racing" now used to describe a very busy day. (Example: Whatcha doin? Rippin' and racin'!)

I was surprised that my usual search engines could not provide origin or meaning on "ripped and snorted." Can you?

Thanks for your time and attention.

e-mail removed

Gee, it sounds like surfer dude lingo for like, cathcing a great wave man, but wiping out in the sand to close to shore. Or it sounds like doing a few lines of, you know, cocaine man. :) DDGordon --[[User:]] 16:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Can't help with the answer, but I removed your e-mail address. See the instructions above, unless you want tons of spam. --George 16:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen "ripped and snorted", but "ripsnorting/rip-snorting" and "ripsnorter" are common slang. It basically means strong, and possibly emotional, like a "rip-snorting good time", a "ripsnorter of a storm", etc. Generally with a genial, fun connotation. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) It's a neologism based on ripsnort v., to go boisterously, to rollick. Ripsnorter: Someone or something exceptionally remarkable in appearance, quality, strength, or the like; spec. a storm, a gale. Rip-roaring (OED). --Shantavira 17:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

There may be a horse racing connection from the snorting noise a horse makes when it's flat out caused by the flaring or "cracking" of it's nostrils as it expands the folds of the nasal tissue to get maximum air through ,like the plaster strips American athletes use.Hope you can visualise this,if not listen to a horse after a hard race(often seen on TV,The Derby is coming up so an opportunity presents itself there.)---Hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 08:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

conjugation of spell

I spell You spell We all spell for ice cre.. wait nevermind

Which is correct: spelled or spelt. As in: You spelled/spelt that wrong. Is spelt just a shorthand way of saying spelled?

They're both correct. Spelled is typically American English, spelt British. Henry^Flower 19:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

In theory 'spelt' is the past participle of the verb 'to spell'. So it is correct to say 'I spelled' but 'I have spelt'. In practice, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. --Richardrj 19:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Your theory is unorthodox. :) It's both: [1]. Henry^Flower 19:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And here I thought you could only eat spelt. Rmhermen 19:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ladakh in Tibetan script

How is Ladakh (pronounced लद्दाख़) written in the Tibetan script (used in Ladakhi language.) Is ལདཁ correct? deeptrivia (talk) 21:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

June 2

Journey plural

(moved from the Humanities Desk)

Why journeys and not journies? --Username132 (talk) 02:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Y → IES rule only applies when the Y follows a consonant. The plural of boy isn't boies either. —Keenan Pepper 02:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And there are exceptions to every rule. That well known American political dynasty is the Kennedys, not the Kennedies. JackofOz 02:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

An exception is monies (used in a few set phrases like "public monies") from money. --Cam 02:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW this should definitely be on the language desk, not humanities. —Keenan Pepper 02:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It is kennedys because Kennedy is a proper noun, it doesnt apply to proper nouns. Boies just looks funny. It seems to me that the rule doesnt apply if the letter at the end of the stem is a vowel. Show me an exception.

The exceptions to that statement are those words that end in -quy: soliloquy becomes soliloquies, obsequy becomes obsequies, and so on. —Bkell (talk) 06:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

A few years ago I compiled a list of irregular plurals in English, and so I had to define exactly what constituted a regular plural, in my opinion. This is the set of rules I came up with:

Regular plurals are formed by following these steps.

• Words ending in -quy form plurals by changing the -y to an -i and adding -es.
  • colloquy → colloquies
  • exequy → exequies
  • obloquy → obloquies
  • obsequy → obsequies
  • soliloquy → soliloquies
• Words ending in -ay, -ey, -iy, -oy, and -uy (except -quy) form plurals by adding -s.
  • Wednesday → Wednesdays
  • journey → journeys
  • convoy → convoys
  • guy → guys
• All other words ending in -y form plurals by changing the -y to an -i and adding -es.
  • baby → babies
  • potency → potencies
  • lady → ladies
  • enemy → enemies
  • party → parties
• Words ending in -ch in which the -ch makes a /sh/ or /ch/ sound form plurals by adding -es. This includes most words ending in -each, -oach, -eech, -ooch, -ouch, -lch, -sch, or -tch. The -es ending is necessary to produce a pronounceable word.
  • sandwich → sandwiches
  • nonesuch → nonesuches
  • peach → peaches
  • approach → approaches
  • speech → speeches
  • pooch → pooches
  • grouch → grouches
  • gulch → gulches
  • starch → starches
  • watch → watches
• Words ending in -ch in which the -ch makes a /k/, /kh/, or another sound other than /sh/ or /ch/ form plurals by adding -s. In these words, the -es ending is not necessary to produce a pronounceable word.
  • stomach → stomachs
  • Czech → Czechs
  • hexastich → hexastichs
  • loch → lochs
  • eunuch → eunuchs
  • monarch → monarchs
• Words ending in -sh, -s, -x, or -z form plurals by adding -es. If the word ends in -as, -es, -is, -os, -us, -az, -ez, -iz, -oz, or -uz, the final letter may be doubled before adding -es. The -es ending is necessary to produce a pronounceable word.
  • glass → glasses
  • relish → relishes
  • quincunx → quincunxes
  • waltz → waltzes
  • bus → buses or busses
  • fez → fezzes
  • schnoz → schnozzes
• Words ending in -i or -o form plurals by adding either -s or -es. Most -i words pluralize by adding -s. Many -o words derived from Spanish, Italian, and other Romance languages add only -s.
  • kiwi → kiwis
  • chili → chilies
  • alkali → alkalis or alkalies
  • hero → heroes
  • piano → pianos
  • radio → radios
  • silo → silos
  • tomato → tomatoes
  • banjo → banjos or banjoes
• All other words form plurals by adding -s.
  • apothem → apothems
  • floe → floes
  • liar → liars
  • machine → machines
  • raisin → raisins
  • ten-year-old → ten-year-olds

Obviously not all English words will follow these rules. Those that do not are called irregular plurals, and must be memorized. But these rules will give the correct spelling of the plural for most English nouns. —Bkell (talk) 06:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

We have an article on English plurals which may cover this. Rmhermen 17:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

It pseudo prnounced "sudo" or "saydo"

"Sudo". Rhymes with Judo. Angr (talk) 06:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Those aren't the only 2 options. Down under, we say "syudo". JackofOz 07:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard it pronounced "saydo". Doing so would lead to a dangerous homophony between pseudomasochism and sado-masochism. Angr (talk) 08:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

In British English and possibly Australian English as well, [juː], commonly referred to in English nomenclature as "long u", occurs in many words that American-English speakers pronounce with [u] or [uː] instead. For example, British-English speaker pronounce duty /ˈdjuːtiː/, but American-English speakers say /ˈdutiː/. Regarding the original question, Webster's Third New International Dictionary lists only "sudo" (or in IPA, /ˈs(j)uːdou/) as a pronunciation for pseudo.--El aprendelenguas 20:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Certain East Coast dialects of American English have the same pronunciation. But it seems to be dying out -- you hear it more in old movies. Though Erika Slezak uses it on One Life to Live and it drives me crazy.  :) User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Not all Brits. Specifically, Received Pronunciation speakers pronounce duty [ˈdjuːtiː]. Estuary English speakers pronounce it [ˈdʒuːtiː]. 85.210.4.124 15:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Amusingly, in Russian, it is pronounced pseh-oo-do or psey-oo-do, with the 'p' pronounced. It sounds silly to my American ears, even though it's much closer to the original Greek pronunciation. Tesseran 22:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

In Russian, it's /ˈpsʲevdə/. And psycho is /ˈpsʲixə/, we tend to pronounce that 'p'. Conscious 12:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

(I changed your title to the correct spelling 82.131.189.233 16:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

It's pronounced like that in Finnish too, and I guess in every language other than English as well. JIP | Talk 13:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure I've seen American movies or TV shows where someone pronounces it "sway-doh". JackofOz 23:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Sway-doe, but that's just me. -zappa.jake (talk) 01:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Sway-doe might be understandable if it were spelled psuedo-, but it's not. —Bkell (talk) 02:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

What does this mean?

Arabic http://www.royalaccord.com/images/arabic_text.gif http://www.royalaccord.com/images/arabic_table.gif and dutch?

DEN HELDER DUIK - EN BERGINGSBEDRIJF

Welkom bij Den Helder Duik en Bergingbedrijf. We zijn gevestigd aan de noordkust van Nederland en we zijn de nummer 1 duik- en bergings firma van het land. Met over 30 jaar ervaring in het bergen van schepen, onderwater onderzoek en industriele ervaring, moet je ons hebben wanneer je iets te bergen hebt.

Den Helder Duik en Bergingbedrijf is een fictieve website. Het is niet echt. Klik aub op de contact button bovenaan de pagina voor meer informatie. DUIKEN EN BERGEN Den Helder Duik

Duiken en Bergen zijn maar twee van de dingen die wij doen bij Den Helder Duik. Bovendien geven we advies op het gebied van onderwater boren, olie-platform onderhoud, kabelleggen en vele, vele andere gebieden.

DH: ERVARING IN BERGEN

We hebben ervaring in Bergen over de hele wereld, inclusief de Noordzee, de Atlantische Oceaan, de Indische Oceaan en de Middellandse zee. We hebben een emergency team dat overal op locatie kan zijn binnen 24 uur.

Den Helder Duik en Bergingsbedrijf is een fictieve website. Het is niet echt. Klik aub op de contact button bovenaan de pagina voor meer informatie Den Helder Duik en Berginsbedijf PROBLEEM AAN: GROOT OF KLEIN

We zijn trots op onze duik expertise. Met een team van 5 duikers, 8 ingenieurs, en 12 onderwater specialisten kunnen we elk probleem aan: groot of klein. We zijn altijd beschikbaar om onze klanten te woord te staan, 24 uur per dag. Daarom is den helder de eerste bergingsfirma met customer support.

Klik aub op de link rechts bovenin voor meer informatie over ons. Den Helder Duik en Berginsbedijf BOVENDIEN GEVEN...

Duiken en Bergen zijn maar twee van de dingen die wij doen bij Den Helder Bergen. Bovendien geven we advies op het gebied van onderwater boren, olie-platform onderhoud, kabelleggen en vele, vele andere gebieden. BERGINGSWERK IN DE NOORDZEE

Onze lokatie in Den Helder leent zich uitstekend voor bergingswerk in de Noordzee. Er zijn twee helikopter platforms in de buurt, waardoor onze ingenieurs en duikers snel bij vele van de olievelden in de buurt kunnen zijn.

Tevens bieden deze platforms een handig aankomstpunt voor onze vele internationale klanten

I don't have time to translate all of that but essentially it says they are a dive and salvaging company. Their location would be excellent for salvaging in the Nordic sea, they have two helicopter platforms neaarby, such that their engineers and divers can reach many of the nearby oil fields guickly. These platforms also serves as a convenient arrival point for many international clients Evilbu 10:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it also say that the company is fictitious, and doesn't exist for real? deeptrivia (talk) 21:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in a clumsy way (it says the website is fictitious, rather than the company) and if you go to their website (which is quite real), and click contact, as they ask you to do, it says that the website is part of a game where the players have to search the site for hidden clues. David Sneek 22:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone said sway-do because they were an idiot. Anyway, it's "soodo" in America.

Use of "the"

Why do we say, "Let's go to McDonalds" but with the name of a hotel, for example, we say "Let's go to THE Hilton."?

My guess is that it is decided by the founder of the company. Also, one would say: Lets go to THE Mcdonalds if they were specifying a single one.

Compare "Let's go to Donald's house" and "Let's go to the old hotel." --KJ 14:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I get the part about specificity, e.g., "Let's go to the McDonalds on Main St." "Donald's house" has kind of confused me, though (lol). How 'bout this: "Let's go to Blockbuster then check in at the Hilton."

"The" is the definite article and defines one specific thing. There is only one Hilton in any city, so it would have to be the Hilton. But there are usually plenty of McDonalds and Blockbusters knocking around. --Shantavira 15:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That still doesn't explain why it's not a McDonalds. I suspect that's because, all McDonaldses being the same, you're talking about the institution rather than the place per se. Henry^Flower 16:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd think that to be the other way around. You say "Let's go to a restaurant", or "a hotel", only if you don't have a specific one in mind. Anyway I think this is a pretty moot discussion, because I don't think there's any rule at all involved. It's just a matter of convention. It varies with the English dialect. E.g. in US English you "go to school", but are "taken to the hospital". Brits are taken "to hospital". And Indian English drops the definite article even more often. --BluePlatypus 18:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All grammatical rules are 'matters of convention'. To clarify:

• 'a McDonalds': one of many MacDonaldses considered as separate entities;
• 'the McDonalds': a particular outlet;
• 'McDonalds': McDonalds considered as an institution. Henry^Flower 18:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All grammatical rules are matters of convention. Yes. And conventions are somtimes well-defined and sometimes not. This is an example of one which is not well-defined, and which varies across English dialects and usage. Attempting to define a simple rule is futile at best, misleading and wrong at worst. I already gave counterexamples to the rules you gave. Americans often say "taken to the hospital" even when not implying some particular hospital. --BluePlatypus 05:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

the easy way to answer this is that there are unsaid, but implied, words. to decide how to address an institution, consider the unsaid words: Let's go to McDonald's (Restaurant); Let's go to the Hilton (Hotel), where McDonald's shows possession (Jim's place, Sam's car), whereas Hilton is a proper name on it's own, with its description or by its description alone (the Hilton, the Hilton Hotel, or the hotel). It is just as one might say the Police, the Police Station, or the Station.

another situation in which the implied words are considered to decide which word to use is in the case of the he/him - she/her and I/me dilemma. apparently american children are no longer taught how to know which is proper anymore, but it is very easy to figure out. just add in the implied, but unsaid, words, and the answer is clear. first of all, I/me always comes second. now let's see an example: "___ and ___ want to go home," or "they want to come home with ___ and ___." selecting from she/her and me/I, just add in the implied words and which word to use is obvious - she (wants to go home), and I want to go home, therefore, she and I want to go home. they want to come home with her, and (they want to come home with) me, therefore, they want to come home with her and me. easy, huh?

Easy, but wrong. In any of the examples above, you could replace McDonalds with Pizza Hut; no possession implied or possible. Henry^Flower 21:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure there are many cities with more than one Hilton. But you'd normally say "the Hilton", whether you had a particular one in mind or not. Answering the question "Where did you stay when you were in New York?" with "The Hilton" would not be to suggest there was only one Hilton in NY. To distinguish one from another, "I stayed at the Hilton on Main St, not the Hilton in Upper Downer Heights". Compare this with "I ate at the McDonalds on Main St, not the McDonalds on Smith St". Or would you say "I ate at McDonalds on Main St, not McDonalds on Smith St"? Younger people would probably say the latter, older people probably the former.

On a tangential note, I've often noticed the use of "the" is sometimes gender-related. At the deli section of the supermarket, a man will usually say something like "I'd like 10 slices of double-smoked ham and 300 grams of Jarlsberg, please", but a woman will usually say "I'd like 10 slices of the double-smoked ham and 300 grams of the Jarlsberg, please". Don't believe me? Watch and listen next time you're there. JackofOz 23:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone. You've been a big help! I'm gonna print this out for future reference.

Sorry to come in late, but I think the correct spelling is McDonald's, with the 's, as in Tiffany's or Ben's, etc. McDonald's standing for McDonald's place/restaurant. This alone seems to me to explain that there is no article. (You could have the McDonalds' of course, if the firm had been created by the whole family, not Ronald alone.) Aurelien Langlois 13:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Two problems with that. It wasn't founded by Ronald McDonald, but by the brothers Dick and Mac McDonald. That might suggest the apostrophe should go after the s, however the name they chose had it before the s. It's a proprietary name that could have been spelt any way they liked without offending any spelling rules. But this is moot in any event, because the company considers its real founder to be Ray Kroc, not anyone named McDonald. Whether one uses 'the' before it has nothing to do with where the apostrophe is. JackofOz 20:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Which way is correct?

"I'm trying to figure out what the problem is."

"I'm trying to figure out what is the problem."

I see #2 on the internet a lot but it seems wrong to me.

I'd go for #1 every time. --Richardrj 14:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

don't trust how people talk on the internet, or in real life for that matter. Many words and conjunctions have been integrated into english. A lot of people use them except they are not in any dictionary. As for the question, #1 is right. #2 is like half a question and half a statement.

See Prescription and description for a discussion. Personally, I use the first form. --KJ 14:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say "I'm trying to figure out what the problem is." or "I'm trying to figure out 'What is the problem?'", suggesting 'What is the problem' is a specific phrase I'm trying to figure out :-) English derives a lot of its meaning from the position of words. 'what is' indicates a question. Skittle 14:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I think these responses are correct -- and fast, too :)

Sorry for the late thought, but both sound correct to me. What introduces a noun clause. In the first sentence, it is the predicate nominative: "...the problem is what." In the second, it is the subject: "...what is the problem." Therefore, the argument becomes something like "Which is correct: 'Penguins are a type of bird' or 'A type of bird is penguins'?" In other words, the only difference is personal preference and emphasis. In several languages (English, Spanish, and Latin, for example), the word that introduces a noun clause can "jump around" in the clause and fulfill a variety of functions. Compare "The baseball is what the player hit," where what is the direct object of hit even though it precedes the verb and "The baseball's design is what has enabled the players to hit more homeruns," where what is the subject of has enabled. By the way, it surprises me we don't have articles for these terms, unless they are listed under different names.--El aprendelenguas 20:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't have any logical reason why I think the second phrasing is incorrect, but it really sounds wrong to me. You can use what as a subject in sentences like "I'm trying to figure out what goes in this hole" and "I'm trying to figure out what makes the sky blue," but when a form of be is the verb it should always come at the end: I'm trying to figure out who you are. I'm trying to figure out when the party is. I'm trying to figure out what this red thing is. I'm trying to figure out what that loud noise was. I'm trying to figure out who I am. —Bkell (talk) 20:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Bkell brings up an interesting point. I hear what as the subject of the copula much less frequently. This infrequency cause me to see the clause as more like a question and with more enphasis. If I reword the last example to "I'm trying to figure out who am I," it sounds more like something a serial killer would say after he starts to see himself as a monster.--El aprendelenguas 21:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the person who said #2 is like half a statement and half a question is on the money. If you were asking a question, it would be "What is the problem?", where the normal subject-verb order is reversed. But this is not asking a question, it is stating that I am trying to figure something out. That something should not be in the form of a question. Hence #1 is correct and #2 is not, but you will often hear #2 spoken colloquially, which probably accounts for the confusion. What one hears in everyday speech or reads on the internet, and what books say is correct English, are often miles apart. JackofOz 22:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

A little knowledge of German sheds a lot of light on this question, I think. In German, all subordinate clauses have their main verbs in final position. Thus in German you would say "I'm trying to figure out what the problem is" (in translation). English, as a Germanic language, has this grammatical feature, though it's not as strong. For example, you would say "I want to know whether he comes from Alabama". In this subordinate clause, the verb follows the subject, but precedes the rest of the clause. If you want to add an interrogative main clause, then it's "I want to know: does he come from Alabama?" In this case, the verb comes first. The question is only whether you want a subordinate clause or a main clause. The particular wording of the sentence under consideration suggests subordinate clause, so #1 is correct. -lethe ^{talk +} 23:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for the help :) I really appreciate your time and effort.

Aren't they both right? — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Three Spanish Verbs

I know if a verb in Spanish directly follows another, you conjugate the first one and leave the second one in the infinitive. But if there are three right next to each other, what do you do to the third one. Like for "I want to eat to live." How would you say that? Is "Quiero comer por vivir" correct? That's the only example I can think of. Any others? What would you do in those situations? Thanks. schyler 17:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's better to say "Quiero comer para vivir." Here's an example of a "triple verb": "Quiero poder hablar español." = "I want to be able to speak Spanish." Here's a "quadruple verb": "Quiero poder saber comunicarme en español." = "I want to be able to know how to communicate in Spanish." Because of the versitility of language, it is theoretically possible to form nearly endless chains of verbs. Be careful, though. The "double verb" rule commonly employed by Spanish teacher to help students remember to say "Yo quiero ir" instead of incorrectly *"Yo quiero voy" isn't a characteristic of Spanish. Rather, it's the government of verbs. For example, querer can take a subordinate clause or infinitive as an object. Ayudar, on the other hand, must take the preposition a before an infinitive in the argument of the verb ayudar (e.g. "Yo lo ayudé a hablar español." = "I helped him speak Spanish."). Watch out for these prepositions that break up verb chains or the so-called "double verbs."--El aprendelenguas 19:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to point out that it's le ayudé, not lo :)--RiseRover|^talk 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, according to the Diccionario panhispánico de dudas of the Real Academia Española, both lo and le are acceptable with ayudar. I wanted to make sure I wasn't becoming too much a loísta. :) --El aprendelenguas 21:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Here it's much more common to use it as intransitive (or to "keep the dative" as the Buscón says), so "lo" does sound weird. But if you want to say it, say it by all means. :) --RiseRover|^talk 21:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Having learned Spanish as a second language, I appreciate your input about how the construction sounds to native ears.--El aprendelenguas 22:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I picked up Spanish in the street and never learned how to use "lo" and "le" properly :( My formula has been to just copy the natives.

Reading a Japanese-spelt name

Hello everyone,

I'd very much like to know how to pronounce a certain character's name. She is featured at http://namco-ch.net/namco_x_capcom/character/index.php , second one from above (the blonde with a spear and pistol).

Here's the name image: http://namco-ch.net/namco_x_capcom/character/img/name_02.jpg

I'm not sure what kind of glyphs are those (Katakana, Kanji, etc). Can someone help me out? Thanks!

--Pedro.

The two on the left are kanji, the ones on the right are katakana (to tell you the pronunciation of the kanji, which is 'shaomuu'). Henry^Flower 21:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The stuff between parentheses in the JPG seems to read Shaomuu, as you could see at Katakana. AnonMoos 21:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! I've already passed the word. Great job. :) --Pedro

It is written in a way to imply that the katakana are an indication of the Chinese pronouncation (because it's a Chinese name). I can't remember my pinyin very well, but "Shao Mū" (a Japanese romanization) is probably written "Xiao Mu" in pinyin, though you'll need to ask someone with better knowledge of Chinese to be sure. The double length "ū" is used in katakana because final vowels tend to be much longer in Chinese than in Japanese.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Sunny Jim (or Sonny Jim)

I have heard this name, "Sunny Jim" used as a multi-purpose name referring to someone to whom the speaker is talking. It seems to be used primarily by speakers of British English. An example would be: "Listen here, Sunny Jim, I told you.....," as someone would call another person "Bubba," or "Toots," or whatever. Does anyone know the derivation of this expression? The only thing I can find is a reference to the jockey/trainer, Sunny Jim Fitz-something, but I haven't found anything explaining why his name might have been used in such a way. Thanks in advance for any help.

I doubt this has a specific origin. "Sonny" is a general term of endearment (or patronisation) for any male younger than you, and "Jim" is a placeholder name like Joe Bloggs, or John Doe; so this is just a combination of the two. The "sunny" spelling I think is a pun on the original, used to refer to people's disposition (as with Jim Callaghan and presumably this jockey). Henry^Flower 21:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The official name of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge is the James "Sunny Jim" Rolph Bridge. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Sunny Jim was a character in an ad campaign for Force {see here) Jameswilson 01:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If Americans don't use it, I'd be more tempted to see it as 'sonny Jim'. It's used a bit like 'young fella-me-lad', but tends to carry accusatory overtones that the latter doesn't always. Skittle 12:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Americans use it. My brother-in-law used to call his son "Sunny Jim" when he (the son) was crying. Angr (talk) 14:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

June 3

In Hindsight?

A friend of mine recently told me a story about how he had become insensed because of a journalist repeatedly using the term 'in hindsight'. He emailed the guy, explaining that he had got it wrong and that he should be using 'with the benifit of hindsight' instead. The journalist replied very quickly, and was most gracious, saying that he appreciated the feedback and that he would try not to fall into this 'faux amis' again. Or words to that effect. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with 'in hindsight' and that 'with the benifit of' is just a flowery way of saying the same thing. Now I need some hard evidence to prove it! Any help would be hugely appreciated. Thanks.

Well, if you're a descriptivist, then this and this provide pretty strong support for your argument. I'm inclined to agree with you, though, that the original is fine even in a prescriptivist sense, and it certainly sounds better. -Elmer Clark 07:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't see anything the least bit wrong with saying "in hindsight". You do agree that you can say "in retrospect", right? And "hindsight" and "retrospect" mean the exact same thing, "a look back". --BluePlatypus 18:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I need a song title translated, please

I have searched for the meaning of this song "Si Vuelves Tu" but I don't exactly understand what it means. I would appreciate any help and it would satisfy the curiosity of one of my friends as well!

Thank You

"If You Return" (I don't know the meaning of the song 'cause I've never heard of it but that's what the title means :)

It's something very much like....

If You Return

I saw you leave, yesterday by that door,

I said goodbye, with grief in my dead soul, and you heard,

Well, if you return to my door, which I did not open to you........

If you return, you have to want me, have to cry (for) me, have to worship me,

If (you) return, (our) life should not be what (it was)

(sorry, I have no idea what "aqui" might mean)

She sounds like an awful lot of trouble to me. There's plenty more fish in the sea. ;)

TheMadBaron 14:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I found a second verse of the song. Here it is:

I return to see you, standing next to that door

that I left open for your goodbye,

but remember well, if you come to my door,

I won't open it for you so that... (seems to be aposiopesis)

If you return,

you have to love me

you have to cry for me

you have to worship me

If you return, life isn't supposed to be

what it was when you were here.

It won't be the same, if you return.

Translated by El aprendelenguas 21:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC).

June 4

Nostril puff signifying laughter

I'm searching for a word to describe the short nostril puff that is frequently used as a form of subdued laughter. It isn't correct to call it "laughter", nor "puffing", nor "exhalation". I'm sure everyone is familiar with this phenomenon, but I've never known of a word for it. Does one exist? Bhumiya (said/done) 03:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A snort, maybe? СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 03:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

When I hear "snort", I think of something louder and sharper, while the phenomenon in question is a very soft, almost whispery puff.Bhumiya (said/done)

I always thought the standard Internet exclamation "heh" was an approximation of this sound. Adam Bishop 07:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. You may be right. It's the only thing that really comes close. Bhumiya (said/done) 07:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Ripsnort?---hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 07:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

Ask Stephen King, he always knows the right words to use. — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Chortle is something like what you mean. --Cam 19:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Chortle is too loud and too animated; I've always taken heh to mean something you do with your mouth. I think we need to invent a word. Henry^Flower 20:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I had used the nonce word "nosepuff" to describe the sound, and the onomatopoeia "fhh!" to approximate it. But "heh" seems close enough for my purposes. Bhumiya (said/done) 02:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

In my usage, "heh" definitely refers to a voiced grunt of amusement in which the nose is only peripherally involved, while the "nose puff" is a completely seperate phenomenon. I don't have a clue what you'd call it, but I do know that it sure ain't "heh". 85.210.4.124 15:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I would go with "snigger" or "snicker" or an onomatopoeia like "pff". There is also the suppressed snort, as opposed to a blowing of soft air, which is also well known for a sarcastic suppressed laugh. Pff! The vagaries of man :)sandman

I do that all the time...usually I just called it laughing, or when I'm typing, lol. Bob 15:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've seen "hmmf" before but maybe in a different context. What do you guys think?

Betelgeuse

Other than as "Alpha Orionis", what is the correct way to pronounce this star's name? If I say "Bayt'l-zhurz" (as it would be in French) it's met with "oh, you mean Beetl-joos" (as in the Michael Keaton movie). if I say "Beetl-joos" it's met with "oh, Bettel-goyzer" (as in German - and presumably the original Arabic). So which is it? Grutness...wha? 08:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

According to Betelgeuse, the Arabic is actually yad al-jawzā. I don't recommend trying that one. Consensus on the talk page seems to be 'as in the film', and FWIW I agree. Henry^Flower 08:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I always said it "Beetle-juice". — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just looked it up in my dictionary, and it says we're all wrong. It says the primary stress can be on the first or last syllable, but that the last syllable rhymes with furs - "beetlejers". Henry^Flower 09:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no single correct way to pronounce the name. Different dictionaries give different pronunciations. I suggest you pick a pronunciation from a dictionary that you like and boldly use it. --Cam 19:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

FWIW M-W offers three possibilities, none of which are the same as my dictionary's. [2] Henry^Flower 20:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've also heard 'Bettle-geez' with a hard 'g' like in 'geese'. But who knows? Skittle 12:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Preposition "to"

Why can we say: "I'm going to Canada." "I'm going to school." but we can't say: "I'm going to home."

The short (and admittedly unsatisfying) answer is that 'go home' is an idiom, and idioms just have to be learned. Henry^Flower 12:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's no doubt a very old expression, perhaps a holdover from the time when English was inflected and prepositions were not always necessary. Like Henry Flower says, it's now become an idiom. On a related point, you generally say "yesterday", and not "on yesterday", although I have heard one educated person (my school principal) consistently say the latter. However, I've never heard anyone say "to home". Peculiar. Bhumiya (said/done) 13:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This construction also appears in other languages. In Russian, there are a couple of prepositions used to indicate motion toward something. But with the expression "going home", the word "doma" (home or house) changes to "domoi" and no preposition is used. JackofOz 14:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A small point: дома (doma) means "at home", not "house", though I'm not sure whether it would be called a preposition or an adverb. (In "Anybody home?", what would you call "home"?) The noun meaning a house, home, or building is дом (dom). You're right about домой (domoi). Tesseran 23:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

W/r/to the on yesterday locution, this section of the American and British English differences article is enlightening. Joe 20:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

'Home' is not a single location as such, it's an abstract concept, and isn't the same for everyone. So you don't need the "to". If you substitute 'my house' for home, you would, however, re-add the "to" - 'I'm going to my house'. Proto||type 10:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't really work. The concept/place distinction applies to other examples (school, hospital etc.) but it's the reason we don't need an article, not the reason we don't need a preposition. Henry^Flower 18:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess the thing is there are three distinctions: some destinations require both preposition and article ("I'm going to the bank", "I'm going to the school reunion"), some require a preposition but no article ("I'm going to school", "I'm going to bed", "I'm going to France"), and some accept neither ("I'm going home", "I'm going outside", "I'm going abroad"). "Home" is not unique, it's merely a member of the third category. 85.210.4.124 15:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Latin does the same thing with the word for "home". It uses a vestigial locative case. It's such a common usage that I would accept that explanation for English as well. -lethe ^{talk +} 05:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

English syllable stress

What is statistically the most common syllable to be stressed in most English words, e.g. the penultimate? the first syllable? etc.--Sonjaaa 12:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That's an impossible question to answer, as there are words of different lengths (the pattern for three-syllable words might be different from two-syllable words, for example) and there are different ways of describing the patterns (is accent stressed on the first syllable, or the penultimate?); the way you count these things will affect your statistics. Personally, when in doubt I go for the penultimate, which I think is at least as good a guess as any. Henry^Flower 17:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

5 vowels convert to English

When people whose languages only have 5 vowels (aeiou), such as Spanish Japanese or many African languages, pronounce an English word like "word" or "bird" with a thick accent, which of these 5 vowels do they tend to prefer?

• [wed], [bed]
• [wok], [bod]
• [weak], [bead] (some sort of dipthong?)
• or other?

--Sonjaaa 12:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Japanese people would say /waːdo/ for word. Generally, people tend to substitute vowels (edit: unfamilar ones) with other vowels (edit: familiar ones) that are closest in vowel diagrams. --KJ 15:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC) --KJ 15:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The article Non-native pronunciations of English would interest you. Note also that the vowel common to word and bird is not pronounced the same in English English and American English, where it is rhotacized, so accents may also differ depending on where the speaker learned English as a second language.--El aprendelenguas 19:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

During my English classes, I was once criticized for pronouncing "work" indistinguishably from "walk". Conscious 09:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

chinese name

How is : Ho-Shang Kung written in traditional chinese ? ( He is a famous writer if a Tao Te Ching commentary ) Hhnnrr 13:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

河上公. Henry^Flower 13:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you , but is this traditional or simplified ?Hhnnrr 21:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's both- these characters are the same in each system. Henry^Flower 21:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Literary Present

I have recently been informed that Lit Present is appropriate when contributing to an article which summarizes fictional events. Such as in comic book articles. However, at what point do we intertwine Lit Present and Lit Past? Like some wikipedians who claim to be "professional writers" (even though in most cases there is no proof of these claims), I also hold a Bachelor of Arts in Creative Writing. Therefore, I feel my edits are valid ones. In most novels and fictional universe guides (Star Wars, Star Trek), past events are not summarized in present, but in past tense. I fail to see how it makes sense for all articles to reflect Lit Present, when the events being summarized are no longer current, but historical within the said fictional universe. I would be more than willing to site examples in order to resolve my concerns when I am contacted by an administrator who is a professional writer (such as a copy writer, technical writer, or even an editor). Thank you. Chee-sen 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This is really a Help Desk question, not a Reference desk one. It's cite, by the way. :) Henry^Flower 16:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say it is a Reference Desk question too. Furthermore, literary present must be destroyed! Adam Bishop 19:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's become standard PBS documentary practice and I hate it! --Cam 19:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Henry Flower, it is "cite" not "site"! I am a terrible person! Why would it be help desk? Isn't a help desk for technical issues, not grammatical? Chee-sen 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:Help desk is for any questions about Wikipedia. As I understand your post, you're wondering why/whether the lp should be used on Wikipedia, not whether it's grammatical. If you are asking whether it's grammatical, then I say yes, but that whether to use it is a question of style, not of correctness. Henry^Flower 20:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

So anyone have suggestions on what to do about the Lit Present academic that has infected Wikipedia comic book articles? I have examples if anyone wants to read them, make sure it's not just me who thinks I have a point... --Chee-sen 23:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Quite simply, it depends.  ;)

If you are objecting to some self-described academic insisting that all literary references should be present tense, then you are in the right, and you should attempt to reason with the editor in question, and possibly start a Dispute resolution process if necessary; just remain polite and make sure you don't do anything disruptive that might lose you the moral high ground. If you are objecting to every single usage of the literary present, on the other hand, then maybe you should take a step back and consider the possibility that you are the one who's taking things too far.  :)

Examples would certainly be helpful, if you want opinions on specific cases. 85.210.4.124 15:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I know I should How to do

the thing happened during in my secondary school. my father have a good friend; he treat everyone friendship, I think I have a good uncil. but only my mother didn't like him. one day all of us set together eat lunch. my father said some about uncil's things, then mother said don't talk him, he eat neals in my familiy now month, he not honest, don't trust him. i heared this thing I'm very angry sag to my mother "why do you treat him in this way," and quarraled with my mother, I felt I have a selfish mother at now. I hatred her. I'm no cry, but mother's tear continue at eye. she didn't said anything. suddently, I felt I hurt my mother's heart. All house in silence, A moment, Father and old sister see me same time. The moment I felt I wrong . Two day ago , mother didn't say anything with me. m heart very uncomfortable.. I realized I lose mother love the world change not perfact for me.

Mother love is great . If you have terible, no people can always help you . except mother and father. they heart always for you.

please, giveing same love to you parents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Linyuan89 (talk • contribs)

• Done. --Halcatalyst 19:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

See also PostSecret. --DLL 21:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Latin translation help

I am attempting to add a translation of some quoted latin text to a stub I just created from the catholic encyclopedia. Looking at the article might give your some context for the translation: Alphonso de Spina.

The text is: Incipit prohemium Fortalitii Fidei conscriptum per quendam Doctorem eximium ordinis minorum anno MCCCCLIX in partibus occidentis. Which I have word for word looked at with a latin dictionary; best I can make out, given context is something like: "Beginning in 1459, in order to prevent the faithful from falling into perfidy, I present my excellent teachings in the battle against the menace" (of hell I presume). I'm sure that contains a bit of the gist but is quite wrong. Any help appreciated.--Fuhghettaboutit

Wow. You'd be fun to play telephone with! I'm not near a dictionary, but it's closer to "Here begins the first part of "Fortalitii Fidei" (Stronger Faith) written by a certain distinguished doctor in minor orders in the year 1459 in the West." - Nunh-huh 22:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Nunh-huh has it, although "prohemium" is the preface or introduction to the book rather than the first part of the text itself, and we put the book titles back into the nominative when translating them so it is Fortalitium Fidei. If he's part of the "ordo minorum" in 1459, he's probably a Franciscan. Adam Bishop 23:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Much appreciated. --Fuhghettaboutit 23:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A question about the name of the book. The full title was apparently "Fortalitium fidei contra fidei christianae hostes". I was wondering about that "fortalitium". It seems to be a word compounded from "fort-" and "-litium". For "fort-" = "strong" I'd expect "e" or "i" to follow, whereas for "fort-" = "luck, chance", I'd expect the "a". But this is 15th century Latin, not the stuff I learnt, so "e" may have become "a", and the root still mean "strong". Then the "litium" (?gen pl) part gets added, which I'd take in the context to mean "of legal arguments / quarrels" . So my translation would be: "Of strong arguments of faith", "Of strongly expressed arguments of faith". How would one put that in modern English? "Strong defence of the faith against the enemies of Christianity"?. "Concerning Strong Arguments of the Faith Against the Enemies Of Christianity"? Or is the "litium" considered here as a singlar neuter, which would explain the "-litii". Then it might be "A strong argument of faith against...", "A strong defence of the faith..." And when did litium become neutral singular, if lis litis is F. Or does that happen when the word becomes part of a combined form? Can one learn this medium aevum Latin on the net? --Seejyb 19:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, to start at the end, the way I learned Medieval Latin is just by constantly reading medieval texts. It's not a different language, but just imagine if Latin was still a living language into the fifteenth century, instead of ceasing to exist at some arbitrary point in the 6th century or whenever...that's medieval Latin. They have to use a lot of words that didn't exist in classical Latin, but which are based on normal classical words. They learned Latin the same way we do, by reading lots of classical texts. Sometimes there are some strange medieval spellings, but not in this word. In fact, it has nothing to do with chance or luck at all - it comes from fortis, strong, which became the noun fortium, stronghold, or fortress, etc, and from that the word "fortalitium" was made, also meaning stronghold or fortress. I'm sure the suffixes have specific meanings that I don't know, so I can't explain that. So it means "Fortress of faith against the enemies of the Christian faith". I hope that makes sense. However, since this is the 15th century, he's probably influenced by Renaissance humanism, and that's a whole different subject...(we do have Medieval Latin and Humanist Latin articles, though.) Adam Bishop 20:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It always surprises me when people say that Latin "ceased to exist" or is "a dead language". Neither of those is remotely true. JackofOz 20:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I beg to differ on the latter. A dead language is usually defined as one that is no longer learned as a native tongue, and Latin certainly qualifies. - Nunh-huh 20:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

When you learn classical Latin (or at least when I did) there is the impression that it is dead, it did not survive past the second century, and that it survives only in pretentious or scientific English borrowings :) But it was certainly alive and vital in the Middle Ages. Adam Bishop 20:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If that's the definition, I don't care much for it, Nunh-huh. JackofOz 23:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought a living language was one that was changing to reflect usage, or some such thing? So it qualified as long as people were writing in it and speaking in it, as they were in the Middle Ages. It certainly went through changes in the Middle Ages, with words like 'sanguine' attracting different endings. If you do a lot of singing, you find that French Medieval Latin is slightly different to English Medieval Latin which is slightly different to German Medieval Latin, because it was being used and adapted. Skittle 11:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

June 5

Today today today

I dunno where to put this, so I'll put it here. What is it called when you see a word so much that it doesn't look like a word any more? Vitriol 04:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Defamiliarization? AnonMoos 15:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I know the feeling -after typing the same word a large number of times in a short space of time, I become absolutely convinced that I am speeling it wrong. And Wikipedia still doesn't have a Spell-checker! Rmhermen 15:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Rmhermen, sp. "spelling" (I would have corrected it, but I couldn't resist the irony). Daniel (‽) 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you consider the possibility of deliberate irony? On another note, please do not correct spelling mistakes you find in other people's posts. Outside article space, it is considered rude.Skittle 21:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Except that he did not correct it, he merely pointed out the error (and with good humour). I, for one, think that the policy of never drawing attention to grammar or spelling errors for fear of offending people is plain dumb. It fosters and rewards ignorance, which is surely the antithesis of what we're all here for. Wikipedia is all about being bold in changing the posts of others if some improvement is warranted. The ref desk is certainly a special case in that it is dialogue-based, but that doesn't mean we have to be so utterly PC towards each other that the whole process of communication descends into some sort of pit of stygean ordure. On the one hand some people complain that Wikipedia doesn't have a spell checker, then on the other hand we're told it's rude to correct the spelling mistakes of others. Let's get real, people.  :--) JackofOz 23:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't refering to pointing out errors, but to editing other people's posts. "I would have corrected it" implied sie was going to. And yes, sie didn't, which is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with pointing out 'I think you mean "spelling".' or doing as sie did, but actually editing the other person's post can be perceived as rude and lead to confusion. For example, you don't know for sure that it wasn't intentional, or making a point. You may have misunderstood their meaning. It may make the later conversation confusing to follow. And it can feel violating, if other people edit your conversational words. It is not about leaving errors unchecked, it is about not changing other people's words without their consent. I also appreciate a kindly spelling/grammar correction being pointed out, as it enables me to learn and avoid the mistake a second time. However, I feel angry when someone edits my words. It also makes it hard to remember what I have and haven't done, which I already have a problem with. Skittle 10:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. JackofOz 11:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I for one,appreciate a kindly spelling/grammar correction ..hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 08:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC))

Just wondering, you seem to have used the word "sie" for "she" on three different occasions in the same paragraph, making it extremely unlikely to be a typo. Was there some particular point that you are trying to make by using "sie" instead of "she"? Perhaps you'd like to introduce the German version of the pronoun into English? Just curious. Loomis51 01:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

See Sie_and_hir. It's a gender neutral pronoun. But I'm also wondering about something: seeing how Skittle used it to refer to a Wikipedian called Daniel, which is a pretty unambiguously male name, I would like to ask: huh? Rueckk 12:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't really trying to make a point, I'm just too lazy to click through to people's User pages to see if they call themselves something different to their usernames. Dbmag does not seem especially masculine to me, and even if it did I have encountered people with rather masculine usernames asking for advice on their menstrual cycles etc, so I try not to assume anything about anyone unless it is spelled out. At some point in the construction of that post, 'they' became ambiguous and I replaced it with 'sie' because I personally find it very weird to be referred to as a gender-specific pronoun that does not apply to me. It then became a matter of consistency to use it throughout. Nothing more, nothing less. Skittle 13:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation from French Wikipedia.

Can someone please translate this article into English from French-- [[3]] on Georges Sagnac.

As English wikipedia does not have an article on it, I can create it after translation.

Thank You in Advance.

P.S.-Please also copy the translated text on my user page.

--Siddhant 07:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the place to request translations of French Wikipedia articles is Wikipedia:Translation into English/French. Angr (talk) 08:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't really have the time (and both languages aren't my native either) so I won't do the translation. But "des ammées 70" doesn't look too correct.

The French page is corrected. We have an article for this guy here. The text looks like a translation from French.

Alas, Npovers and Citationnerds may destroy it, as the level of the French WP is base and almost primitive compared to this WP. So take a quick look quickly. --DLL 21:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I've put up a revised translation with some fixed wiki links in the Georges Sagnac article. I'm not personally familiar with this scientist, and the original article in French is lacking in details, so caveat lector, as I may have misunderstood what was intended. I've put hidden comments in the article for those who are inclined to improve it. --Tachikoma 16:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Question about a question

Does the following sentence require a question mark at the end? "In practice, the question facing us is how are we to know how many roads a man must walk down." --Shantavira 13:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No it does not require one. Sentences only require a question mark if they're direct questions to the addressed. JIP | Talk 13:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No. It would, however, require a question mark if it were rewritten as follows: In practice, the question facing us is "How many roads must a man walk down?" --DavidGC 14:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You have confused yourself by your wording which, while correct in conversation, leads to this apparent conflict when written. I would reword it "In practice, the question facing us is how we are to know how many roads a man must walk down." since this avoids any expectation of a question mark. Yours could also be rewritten 'In practice, the question facing us is "how are we to know how many roads a man must walk down?".'. Skittle 14:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Not all questions are necessarily questions. JackofOz 20:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It's Good to be King -- origin of phrase

What is the origin of the phrase "It's good to be king"? When was it first used? Does it pre-date Mel Brooks? 198.134.2.62 19:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure many kings have said that, at least until people started getting wise to them. How about King Tiu? --Shantavira 13:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

June 6

Ablative of opus

Moved by JackofOz from Wikipedia Talk:Reference Desk

In Classical Latin, could anyone please tell me if the word "pro" takes the ablative; I am thinking, in particular, of Newman's Apologia pro vita sua. If so, what would the ablative be for the word opus!

Thank you in advance!

Yes, pro takes the ablative. The ablative of opus is opere. Angr (talk) 12:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that we are talking about ablative : is there a difference in pronuncation between vita sua in ablative?Evilbu 14:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends which conventions of Latin pronunciation you're following. In Classical Latin, the nominative is [ˈwiːta ˈsua] and the ablative is [ˈwiːtaː suaː] with a long ā at the end of each word. In both Italianizing and Germanizing pronunciation, though, no pronunciation distinction is made, and both are [ˈvita ˈsua]. Angr (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I am mostly interested in classical Latin. My books often explicitly wrote ${\bar {a}}$ , but actually WRITING that difference is "not done" right?Evilbu 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the first time I've ever seen someone use the math markup to indicate a long a! It's right there in the "insert" box below the edit box. Anyway, marking long vowels is customary in pedagogical works (textbooks, dictionaries, etc.), but the Romans themselves very rarely marked long vowels. Occasionally in some inscriptions you'll see an acute accent or a doubled vowel, but both of those are pretty rare. Angr (talk) 18:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In Renaissance / 18th-century citations of Latin, you'll occasionally see an a-circumflex â used to distinguish the singular ablative case of the first declension from the singular nominative case of the first declension (so that you might write "pro vitâ suâ"). However, this was usually only done when necessary to avoid ambiguity, and there's no ambiguity here. AnonMoos 03:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So it wasn't just my book that did that, thanks. About the ā I was wondering how you did it, I though perhaps one of the (few!) disadvantages of Azerty :) Evilbu 09:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I'm in Germany, I use Qwertz, and ā isn't on it! :-) Angr (talk) 10:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

using brand names instead of proper names

Hi, I know a word exists to describe using a brand name instead of a proper name (for example Hoover instead of vacuum cleaner, sellotape instead of stickytape, tippex instead of corrrection fluid etc). But I can not recall what the word is. Any ideas? thanks

Genericized trademark? -lethe ^{talk +} 13:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Using a proper name (e.g. a brand name) instead of a common noun is usually called antonomasia. Aurelien Langlois 16:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

English dictionaries usually flag these as proprietary terms. --Shantavira 18:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article is at genericized trademark. Are you British? You must not be North American, as I have never heard of sellotape or tippex. moink 05:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Those are certainly brands used generically in Britain, so it seems likely they are British. However, they could be used in Australia and other places too for all I know. Skittle 09:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Tipp-Ex is actually a German brand, but it's the best known correction fluid throughout Western Europe, including Britain. Sellotape is indeed a British brand, and it too is also available in continental Europe. Not in Australia though - the best known adhesive tape there is Durex. This causes some amusement to British people, as in Britain the name Durex is used for a brand of condom! AndyofKent 10:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

gross domestic readership skills.

what does gross domestic readership skills mean and its significance to developing countries?

Higher literacy rates in a population improve the chances that a piece of homework given out will be completed by the receiver rather than being passed out to strangers to do it for them. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 15:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

other words for "healer"

I'm looking for ancient words for the word healer, preferably from English/Northern European roots. Could you also include pronunciation? Many thanks..

Uhh...well, Old English had lǽce for "doctor", pronounced like "LAH-kuh" or something... - Greatgavini 16:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was pronounced [ˈlæːtʃə] (sort of like "LATCH-uh" but with a nice long vowel in the first syllable). Angr (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And the words for "doctor" in the Scandinavian languages stem from the same root:

• Swedish: Läkare
• Norwegian (nynorsk): Lækjar
• Norwegian (bokmål) Lege
• Danish: Læge

--vibo56 ^talk 17:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably, as well as Slavic "lek" (cure)

• Serbian: Lekar
• Croatian: Liječnik
• Czech: Lékař
• Polish: Lekarz

--Duja 13:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hence leech. Isn't language great? EdC 18:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

German question

The phrase "in the underground/subway": is it "in den U-Bahn" or "in der U-Bahn"? It seems to me that U-Bahn would be in the dative case (and therefore "in den"), but a sentence in this wikipedia.de article disagrees. I google-d wikipedia.de and both forms seem to be prevalent. --Doug (talk) 19:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it seems that "in der U-Bahn" is suffixed by another word, changing the gender. But I'm still confused. Isn't U-Bahn feminine? Isn't 'den' masculine accusative? I have a German exam on Thursday, I should really know this :( --Doug (talk) 19:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Dative = dem der dem den, gah, nevermind --Doug (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It is "die U-Bahn" in nominative, thus feminine. "In der U-bahn", that is a dative.

Evilbu 19:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to explain those Google results, in case anyone's still confused: there are many hits for phrases such as in den U-Bahn-Stationen, which will show up on a search for in den U-Bahn. Henry^Flower 19:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And "in den U-Bahnen" that would be correct too right?Evilbu 19:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. I thought that the dative case went (masculine to plural) "dem den dem den" for some reason when in fact feminine dative is "der". Bah. And yeah, Henry, you're right about that. --Doug (talk) 19:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What is this text?

http://www.royalaccord.com/images/arabic_text.gif

This was asked about above, part of the same game show, I guess. It looks like backwards Arabic, for example, the word on the far left of the top line is a reverse of مرحبا marhaba which means "Hi." I also see familiar prepositions in there backwards, like في fi ("in"), على `ala ("on"). I am sorry I don't really know Arabic well enough to figure out what the whole thing says, but it does look like the same few lines are repeated over and over, so there isn't much work there for whoever might be able to translate it.

I note that last year this same game show was accused of using Wikipedia for viral marketing, though a producer denied it … [4]--Cam 23:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Quebec City - French Speaking population

What percentage of Quebec City speak French at home?

According to Statistics Canada, 647,925 of the 673,105 residents of the Quebec City Census Metropolitan Area are francophones, who presumably all speak French at home. That makes 96.3% just with francophones. Including a few of the English/French bilinguals, it's probably about 97%-98%. However, for just the City proper, (the "ville") it's slightly lower, about 95% francophone. --ByeByeBaby 21:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

last names

i need some help with the meanings of a few last names. Castellucci is one of them and Gronski is the other.-thank you

Gronski sounds Eastern European. Maybe it means "one from Gronsk?". could be Polish. Castellucci is almost definitely Italian. It looks plural, and is probably derived from Castello, or "Castle." --Dlayiga 05:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Gronski might mean "Greenlander". —Bkell (talk) 05:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually that's probably unlikely. The word Grónsko means Greenland in Czech and Slovak, producing the adjective grónský for Greenlandic; but the name Gronski looks Polish, and the Polish word for Greenland is not Grónsko but Grenlandia. The other Slavic languages appear to use words more similar to Grenlandia than to Grónsko. —Bkell (talk) 05:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There is the Polish village of Grońsko, though... —Zero Gravitas 08:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

According to ancestry.com, Castellucci is the patronimic or plural of Castelluccio, which at the same time is the habitational name from any of numerous places named or named with Castelluccio or Castellucchio, from a diminutive of castello ‘castle’, ‘fortified building’. As to Gronski, it's the habitational name from Gronsko in Poznan voivodeship. --RiseRover|^talk 19:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, wow...one of my favorite topics! My last name means loudmouth— Schnautz

Bob 15:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

June 7

Audio in Latin and other langauges

I 'm trying to learn Latin, French, Spanish, and other languages. What I need is to hear conversations in those languages and I frequently search video.yahoo.com and video.google.com. Are there any other free audios in those langauges ? Not much for the classical latin though. --Jondel 06:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

For Latin, you could try YLE's Nuntii Latini] - the broadcast version is made available in RealAudio format. 85.210.4.124 16:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Gratias ago!--Jondel 23:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"Gratiam ago"? --212.202.184.238 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Beware that since everyone that once spoke Classical Latin died before Bell invented sound recording, no one really knows 100% how Latin sounded. So there are two competing traditions in how to pronounce Latin, a Germanic inspired one, and a pronounication that sounds like modern italian. H@r@ld 11:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Gratias

That would be if gratia is a verb, for the noun 'gratia', 'gratias'-plural, and 'ago'(agere)--Jondel 04:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

knowledge of other languages (like English) in Japan

I was just wondering what kind of languages children/adults normally learn in Japan. Japan is quite a modern country and has a decent educational system. One might expect that they another language at school?

My uncle who has been to Japan tells me that one can be quite lost there as a foreigner. Not only are even in airports most signs only in the Japanese writing system, most people there don't know any English.

I must say, when i watch Japanese manga (as my names suggests I like to do that :) ), I sometimes have doubts too. In Neon Genesis Evangelion they speak of "the fifth children" for instance. Isn't there anyone who notices such a thing during production. Sometimes when some parts of a song are in English, I don't hear it because it is pronounced in such a weird way.

Could it be that, regardless of economic status a foreigner like me (Dutch speaking but with some French/English abilities) is actually better off in Asian countries like Vietnam or China than Japan?

Evilbu 18:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

They normally study English, but I wouldn't say that they learn it. Interestingly, English used to be compulsory; AFAIK it no longer is, but it's by far the most common foreign language studied. Henry^Flower 18:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, usually the number of years is quite a good indicator...although my best language is not the one I had to study the most. I've had two years of German which was a joke. Is it comparable?

All languages have about the same complexity: "Very complex." If the morphology is easy, maybe the syntax is hard. If the syntax is simple, maybe the phonology is complicated.

This might lead one to think that all languages are difficult to learn. However, some languages are similar to each other but some languages are very different, which can make learning either easier or harder depending on your native language and your target language.

English and Japanese are very dissimilar, more so than English and German, AFAIK. Japanese and Korean have a lot in common, and not surprisingly, English is hard for Koreans too. Most people in Korea who have learned English for more than 12 6 years probably can't read English novels. --KJ 02:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

So I'd say, "Not comparable." --KJ 02:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

They don't try to speak the language although they can perfect the grammar. I live in Tokyo and studied Spanish. My Japanese classmates perfected the grammar specially in tests but I could speak the language to get by. They are too conscious of mistakes that they would make. They have what they term Japanese-complex , something like inferiority complex when outside of Japan or when not speaking EnglishJapanese. Yes they study English throughout their school life but they prefer not to use English.--Jondel 02:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I teach English in a Japanese high school, and I find that in many cases, Japanese students' only desire with regard to English is to learn enough to pass tests and get into University. Beyond that, they aren't interested. So for the majority, they learn rules and vocabulary without learning to communicate. Plus Jondel is right in that many students don't try to do stuff for fear of making a mistake and looking foolish in front of their peers. Even so, English is a lot more commonly studied than other languages. I would, however, take issue with what you say about the lack of English in airports, etc. All the Japanese airports I've been in (Narita and Centrair) had most signs in English (some in Thai, Chinese and Spanish too), and I had no trouble finding my way around the country when I first arrived and spoke no Japanese. I live in a fairly rural area and signs on the road and at railway stations are all in both English and Japanese, and the announcements on trains are translated into English too. I'd say it's a fairly easy country in which to get around. Phileas 04:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Tanga = thong?

Some languages use the word "tanga" for a thong or G-string underwear. What is the etymology of this term "tanga"?--Sonjaaa 18:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

OED says it is from ntanga meaning loincloth in the Kimbundu language via Portuguese. MeltBanana 19:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I thought it had a Tupi origin. —Gennaro Prota^•Talk 19:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Many thanx,I knew it was nothing to do with the pop but never did know the origin(hotclaws**== 12:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

Greek word question

What is the Greek word for someone who has a fascination with some animals? For example, ants. "Myrmecophile" could be seen as implying a sexual desire for ants, which is not what I'm talking about. "Myrmecomaniac", OTOH, could be seen as implying an all-encompassing obsession with ants, which won't do either. What I mean is a person who enjoys learning things about ants and observing ants in nature. JIP | Talk 18:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The -phile suffix doesn't indicate a sexual desire; it just means "love" or "affinity". Bibliophiles don't have sexual desires for books, for example. That being said, the word myrmecophile does exist; it means "an invertebrate or plant that has a symbiotic relationship with ants (for example, being tended and protected by ants, or living inside an ant nest)", according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Myrmecologist is a word which means "an expert in or student of myrmecology". I don't know if that's closer to what you want. —Bkell (talk) 18:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean about the -phile suffix, but it does have a sexual meaning in some terms (such as zoophile). But neither of the words you suggest will do for what I'm after - myrmecophile won't do, because I'm looking for a word for a person, and myrmecologist won't do, because I'm looking for a word for a layman. JIP | Talk 19:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

A colombomane is a pigeon fancier, with no connotations of obsession as far as I know. The same with balletomane. So myrmecomane or "ant fancier"?

Yes, Latin is not so bad. Why tryin' Greek words all the time ? Did they rule the world once ? (Maybe Alex was an hellenophone, but he was from Independant Makedonia).

Myrmecomane is a heavily Frenchified form of a pure Greek word. A Latin word would be based on the root "Formic-". AnonMoos 13:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Czech preposition "od"

Czech has seven cases: nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, locative, and instrumental. I was wondering which case corresponds to the preposition "od", meaning from. My guess would be dative, but I could imagine it being genitive or instrumental as well. I thought I'd check here before I go in search of Czech-speaking Wikipedians. Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 19:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's the genitive case. —Bkell (talk) 21:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ano. Jedu od Prahy do New Yorku. -- Mwalcoff 23:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Dĕkuji vam! Bhumiya (said/done) 23:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Another Czech question

Encouraged by those quick responses, I have another question about the pronunciation of the short vowels. Are "y" and "i" always pronounced as in "tick", even at the end of a word? And what exactly is the pronunciation of "u"? I've been told that it rhymes with "book". Bhumiya (said/done) 23:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but from what I can gather from Czech orthography and the vowel tables on IPA, "y" and "i" are pronounced the same (like "tick"), as are í and ý (both pronounced like "beet"). And "u" (close back rounded vowel) is indeed a bit like "book".

Wow, I'm learning things myself from this. :-) I wonder if there is actually someone who knows Czech out there who can back me up on this... -THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 20:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Every orthographic guide I can find says "i" and "y" should be pronounced as in "tick", but it seems strange to pronounce it that way at the end of a word. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont speak Czech but why would it be strange? Jameswilson 22:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems strange to our ears because English doesn't have too many (if any) words that end in a "short i" sound. Actually, in my experience, "y" and "i" without an accent mark actually sometimes do sound a bit like long i, especially at the end of words. -- Mwalcoff 23:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That's precisely right. I always end up pronouncing it like "ee", or else lapsing into a schwa. Bhumiya (said/done) 02:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought Czech has only five vowel phonemes. The difference between i/y and í/ý is a matter of vowel length and not a different vowel. That's the impression I gather from a Czech recording I'm listening to. --Chris S. 06:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

June 8

Italien translation

Hi, could someone translate this to English for me please?

"In Italia non esiste una lega professionistica ma dilettantistica di lacrosse, Roma lacrosse club fondata da Robert Corna. Inoltre esiste l'inter-crosse, gioco simile al lacrosse, giocato però in spazi piccoli e chiusi. Si gioca tra 4 squadre, tutte della Provincia di Lecco (Lecco, Vercurago, Merate e Olginate)."

It's from it:Lacrosse#In Italia. Thanks! --Yarnalgo 01:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops! I didn't see the link to the wikitionary page. I'll post this there but you are still welcome to translate it here. --Yarnalgo 02:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it says "In Italy there is no professional lacrosse league, only an amateur league, the Rome Lacrosse Club, founded by Robert Corna. Elsewhere there exists Inter-Crosse, a game similar to lacrosse, played (I don't know this part). (Something) four teams, all in the Province of Lecce (Lecce, Vercurago, Merate, and Olginate)." Sorry...but hey, that's pretty good considering I never learned Italian...it's just like French and Latin. Adam Bishop 06:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The middle part is "...a game similar to lacrosse, but played in small and enclosed places. It is played between four teams..." --Cam 06:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thank you guys. --Yarnalgo 20:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Make sure to..." / "Make sure and..."

I am having trouble finding reference to this phrase in a style / grammar guide.

Which is correct? ("Make sure to..." sounds better to me, but I cannot find anything definitive).

Either one would sound natural to me, depending on context. --KJ 04:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, the first one seems more formal than the second. --KJ 04:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone say "make sure and." It seems like the phrase requires an infinitive verb, which is what "to (whatever)" is. Adam Bishop 04:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that "make sure to" is the better of the two, although "make sure and" is common in informal use (at least where I'm from). Using and doesn't really make sense, though. If I say "Please go outside and check the mail," I can split this up into two sentences:

Please go outside. Please check the mail.

The sentence "Please make sure and close the door," on the other hand, can't:

Please make sure. Please close the door.

This indicates that this sentence isn't two things joined together, so and doesn't make sense here. —Bkell (talk) 04:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it makes just as much sense as the first example. --SeizureDog 08:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Or even better, "Make sure that you..." —Keenan Pepper 04:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It may not make sense, but it is widely used. Still, I would always prefer "to". Bhumiya (said/done) 05:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Of the two, definitely "Make sure to", although "make sure that you..." is better. Think about it logically: what are you making sure of? Doing something. So you are making sure that something has been done. If it's something in the future from the time the words are said, then you're making sure that something to do has been done (hence "make sure to do"). There's no point in making sure and (then) doing something, since if you've made sure then it's already been done. Grutness...wha? 10:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What about "try to ..." / "try and ..."? Conscious 11:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd find both of these natural as well, although the first would seem more formal. Anyway, IMHO it would be a logical fallacy to try and split "Try and split" into two sentences, then exclaim that it doesn't work, and then claim that the sentence is wrong. "And" is clearly something more than a simple "sentence/word joiner" in this case. --KJ 12:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

And if you've never heard someone say "make sure and" or "try and split" before, now you've heard it more than twice. For the record, I learned my English in Greater London, although most of the English I've heard since then is American English. Today I heard someone from Australia say "try and answer" as well. --KJ 12:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

To me, "try and do" sounds like determination to do something at all costs, rather than merely "trying to do". But I guess it's indeed a fallacy, and the meaning is equivalent. Are these variants equally frequent in US and UK/Commonwealth? Conscious 20:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

To me it's the same as "make sure". What the point of "try and do"? If you succeed when you try, there's no need to "do" afterwards, so "try and do" - which logically means "try, then afterwards do" automatically assumes that the try will be a failure. You don't say that you are "trying and doing" something - you say you are "trying to do" it. So there's no excuse for "try and do". Grutness...wha? 03:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Language doesn't need to have a point; it's language. :) --KJ 04:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I found that the very first google link for "try and" says it's an error (it's a page of Paul Brians, Department of English, Washington State University). Conscious 05:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

People have said the same for split infinitives. Don't trust the "experts" on language. Don't trust dictionaries. ;P --KJ 06:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

here's a potentially useful conversation on this matter. KWH 14:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sign language demographics

What is the most widely spoken form of sign language (as in 'deaf sign") and how many people are fluent in it (and in sign languages generally)? There doesn't seem to be any information about the demographics at either sign language or list of sign languages... My guess is American Sign Language, which is listed as having upwards of 500,000 users. Grutness...wha? 10:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems likely; British Sign Language only has 250,000. I'm guessing looking at each article's page will tell you, tiresome as it is. Skittle 13:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

BANZSL or Turkish Sign Language could be contenders, but it seems unlikely. Hard figures are tricky to get for many of these. Skittle 13:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation of Latin "Ut Sit"

There is a 1982 papal decree entitle "Ut Sit". What does "Ut Sit" mean?--Alecmconroy 15:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"So that may be". It's probably the first two words of the first sentence; the entire sentence (including the subject!) is needed to make sense out of it. Angr (talk) 15:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

One of the prayers of Opus Dei's founder Josemaría Escrivá was Domina, ut sit! ("Lady, that it might be!"), according to our article on Escrivá. (The 1982 decree was about Opus Dei.) --Cam 16:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The sense is that of Amen! --DLL 21:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

From the song: "Mother Mary ... words of wisdom, Let It Be". Any connection that anyone knows of? --Seejyb 20:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No stronger connection exists! So the Beatles, more poplar than Jeez, wanted also to beat the pope. --DLL 18:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

June 9

Chinese title: Lu lu ching i

Prince Chu Tsai-Yu first calculated the twelfth root of two in his treatise lu lu ching i or "a clear explanation of that which concerns the lu". What are the tones of lu lu ching i? What other transliterations are possible for lu lu ching i and Chu Tsai-Yu? I've seen the name of the instrument spelled lü, with an umlaut. Is the umlaut correct? Does it mean anything? —Keenan Pepper 00:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Equal temperament gives us his name: 朱載堉, Zhu Zaiyu (first tone, third or forth, don't know). Checking for the rest. Kusma (討論) 00:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The book is the 律呂精義, Lǜ Lǚ Jīng Yì. We have an article about the guy at zh:朱載堉. The umlaut is correct, and means that it is pronounced like a German "ü", not like a German "u". (Probably this is explained in Hanyu Pinyin). Kusma (討論) 00:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! So what's that in IPA, something like [ˋly ˇly ˉtɕiŋ ˋji]? —Keenan Pepper 00:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, what is the modern name of the lu? Is it one of the instruments at Traditional Chinese musical instruments#Bamboo (竹)? —Keenan Pepper 00:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that 呂 is an instrument? According to this, it is the name of a scale. 律 can mean "tuning instrument" in Classical Chinese, according to [5], not only "law" and "rule" as in modern Chinese. Due to my almost complete lack of knowledge of classical Chinese, I can't say very much about how to best translate the title. Kusma (討論) 00:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the lü wasn't an instrument for musical performance, but only for tuning, somewhat like a Western pitch pipe or tuning fork, so that makes sense. —Keenan Pepper 01:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Keenan is correct, there're 12 律呂 (indeed 6 is called 律, 6 called 呂), corresponding to the Western C, #C, D, #D...--K.C. Tang 02:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Spanish Ojala

Can I say, 'Ojala que me dijieras más antes/temprano.' for 'I wish you told me earlier.' ?--Jondel 01:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I asked a chilena at a store down the street and got 'Hubiera sido mejor que me dijera antes.' Thanks myself... and uh others who will participate.Ojala is used only with the future or hopes, etc. I wonder if Ishould do more of this one man conversation. :D --Jondel 03:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you wanted to use Ojalá, it's best to use it in the future -- "I hope that you will tell me afterwards", Ojalá que me digas después. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll reiterate that ojalá is best for the future, but having said that, I have heard it used for the past in the way that you have written (usually without the más). - Draeco 06:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Mil gracias, Zoe and Draeco.--Jondel 05:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"(spanish-speaking here) I hope it rains: ojalá llueva, or ojalá que llueva. For those examples you were giving, the best way of saying it is "espero que me digas después," or "ojalá me hubieras dicho antes," or "ojalá me dijeras (if s/he doesn't want to tell you)."

Other use of the word is: -are you going on vacation this summer? -I wish! (-¿Te vas de vacaciones este verano? -¡Ojalá!) I hope it helps, and it isn't too late ;)"

Password Game

What's a word that is the same in both German and English, doesn't need to be translated into either, is 5 letters long, and has the letter "A" and "W."

• I believe the answer is "waltz". Bhumiya (said/done) 10:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. Isn't the English word "waltz" derived from the German "walzer"? JackofOz 11:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

JackofOz is right. The German for "waltz" is Walzer. Angr (talk) 11:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Aaaww! meaning an exclaimation when you see something cute(hotclaws**== 12:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

Um, a German would pronounce that "aaaww" as "ooovv". I haven't heard any Germans making that sound. Anyway, I'm going with "wagon". --BluePlatypus 16:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As in "Volkswagen"? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"wagen" is more common. But "wagon" is existing spelling variant though. --BluePlatypus 22:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Would "Wales" be counted as a "German word"? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 17:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

How about diwan? Admittedly, it's not a common word, nor the most common spelling in English. —Bkell (talk) 18:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Or fatwa. —Bkell (talk) 18:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The question was "What's a word...?" so I assume there's multiple answers. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Aha. I think I know the answer the question is looking for: Schwa. —Bkell (talk) 19:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also squaw. —Bkell (talk) 19:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

One more and I'm done: Wicca. —Bkell (talk) 19:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation to Spanish (title added)

How would one say "system-on-a-chip" in Spanish? 198.237.142.5 18:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sistema en un chip? (Not a native speaker, so not sure how that sounds.) —Keenan Pepper 18:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there any way you could put that phrase into context? Otherwise it's pretty hard to translate. - Draeco 06:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You probably want Circuito Integrado para Aplicaciones Especificas. That's the title of the Spanish article on Application-Specific Integrated Circuits (ASICs). --Halcatalyst 18:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

disc-ing?

Hello. I work in a television newsroom (WNEP-TV), and it seems the language is not keeping up with technology. Several decades ago, our photographers shot on film, and as a gerund verb they were said to be filming something. With the advent of videotape, the photographers would be taping their news stories. Recently we got rid of tape, and are now using video discs. (They are similar in appearance to DVDs and CDs, but formatted for higher-quality video.) My question is, does this now require a new verb form, disc-ing? — Michael J 22:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Recording? We still "dial" a phone. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think English so far has come up with burning as in "burning onto a disc". The verb disking is used for agriculture, there's no precedent for discing that I know. - Draeco 06:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably because it would fly in the face of English orthography. It should be disking or even discking rather than discing. —Keenan Pepper 06:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The word discing is a perfectly acceptable way of spelling disking, as used in agriculture. For years it's been my example of an English word with a hard c before an i. In fact the Oxford English Dictionary lists the verb disc as the primary spelling and disk as an alternate, and explicitly gives the spelling discing, as well as citations for disced and discing. There is no mention of the spelling discking. If you're going by analogy with picnicking, is the difference possibly because the c in disc does not immediately follow a vowel? —Bkell (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems silly to me to choose words for things that will likely need to be replaced every few years, as the technology changes. "Recording" seems like a better way to go. If I can segway into a related topic, what would one call riding a segway scooter using such technology dependent wording, "segging" ? "scooting" ? StuRat 16:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, please - you don't segway into a topic, you segue. Segway is only ever a proper noun. Natgoo 23:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was making the pun more obvious by spelling it the same way, too. StuRat 05:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyways, people will only start "segging" when Segways become cool, and with people like the PM of Japan endorsing it, I don't think that's ever going happen.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think they need to bring the price way down. Several thousand dollars for something that's basically just a fancy electric scooter (which you can get for 1/10th the price), is never going to sell all that well. StuRat 05:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Another word with a hard c in front of an i is arcing, as in "electric arcing". —Bkell (talk) 06:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

On the naming of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

Talk:Saddam Hussein/naming has a long discussion over whether or not Saddam Hussein should be referred to as Saddam or Hussein (or al-Tikriti). Based on that precedent, shouldn't we be referring to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as "Abu Musab"? (I have also listed this at the Village Pump). User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This page on Arabic naming conventions might be of help. --Halcatalyst 18:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the difference is, Saddam Hussein is the man's real name, while Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is a pseudonym. Calling Saddam Hussein, "Hussein", would just be inaccurate as that's his father's name. I don't think it really matters which part of the Abu Musab al-Zarqawi pseudonym we go with, except that there is a very clear preference in English writing for "Zarqawi".--Pharos 02:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Odd Writing Behaviour

I'm not sure whether to post this here or in the Science section, as it appears that it can apply to both.

When writing, I have the odd habit of occasionally, but often enough that I'm curious, skipping either the first or last letter of a word that I'm writing.

For example, when writing the word "WIKIPEDIA", (I tend to always print in capital block letters and never use cursive, the reason for which is a whole other story for a whole different question) although I'd usually get it right, an unusual number of times I'd look at the page and see: "IKIPEDIA" or "WIKIPEDI". The same goes for numbers like telephone numbers, which is far more problematic, as it can be maddening to look up someone's number that I've jotted down and find that I'm one digit short!

The problem isn't all that serious, merely an inconvenience at times. I'm just wondering if this is a common enough phenomenon for which perhaps there is even a name, or if this is simply my own, personal, unique habit that few if any others tend to experience. Loomis51 00:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Happens to me to. Sometimes I'll even write down several letters of a word starting with the second, then realize what I've done and go back and write the first letter. I wouldn't worry about it. Call it very mild dysgraphia. —Keenan Pepper 05:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This happens to me, although only when typing, not in handwriting. I think it's because I tend to hit the first and last keys lighter than the middle keys, and apparently this isn't always hard enough to register. StuRat 15:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a similar sort of problem - in words that contain "chn" such as "technique" or "arachnid" I almost always omit the "n". I'm a good speller, so this is one of the only things I have a problem with. Does anybody have a possible reason for this? --Bearbear 16:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I've never heard of someone that does that. I have a similar problem that I write completely different words than I intend to write, for example "anyone" becomes "anywhere" or "complicate" becomes "competition", but I know that's just because I sometimes write faster than I can think! (I just wrote "thought" instead of "think" > <)  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think these things are just results of being distracted. The mind will do all sorts of patchwork and omission when you're concentrating on too many things at once, as is common the U.S. and Western Europe. That's why we have editors. -LambaJan 03:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

June 10

Rounders/Netball

I was looking at a French-English dictionary, and I saw they had to explain what these games were because it said people in France never played it. So my questions are: 1. Do (at least some) French people have any knowledge of these games and how they are played? 2. Is it just in France or are these games specific to few countries. 3. I'm sure the translation for "netball" would follow the same pattern as other -ball games (i.e. remain the same in French) but would "rounders" be given another name? If not, would the pronounciation be anglicized or would it follow the pronouncation as if it were a French word? --Bearbear 16:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

According to our articles on netball and rounders, they seem to be confined primarily to Commonwealth countries; in particular rounders which is essentially only played in Great Britain and Ireland. (I'm from Canada, and I've never heard of anyone playing it.) Handily, our Netball article has an interwiki link to French Wikipedia, where they call it le Netball. Because both Rounders and Netball are such peculiarily English and English-Commonwealth phenomena, I'm guessing most other languages would simply use those names and the anglicized pronounciations. Of course, baseball and basketball, which are similar, are much more popular and better-known worldwide. --ByeByeBaby 17:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

My Spanish/English dictionaries also give a description and no translation (thus "netball" and "rounders"); the same goes for my Arabic dictionary though it's not very comprehensive. As an American, I also have no idea about either sport, and I would bet a large majority of my countrymen are equally ignorant. - Draeco 23:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Homophones of World

Is whirled a homophone of world? Are there any more?Patchouli 17:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it might be in some pronunciations - not mine - and I suppose that "whorled" might be as well. - Nunh-huh 18:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

When spoken in some accents, weld, welled, walled, wild and wold are pretty close too.--Shantavira 18:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster's dictionary has \' wər(-ə)l\ = whirl and \' wər(-ə)ld\ = world. Does this mean the standard American way of pronouncing whirled and world is exactly the same?Patchouli 18:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably, although some Americans pronounce wh differently than w (they pronounce the former as /hw/). I pronounce whirled and world differently for this reason, although I appear to be in the minority, at least in my part of the country (Nebraska). My friends occasionally make fun of me for this. ;-) —Bkell (talk) 19:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"the standard American way of pronouncing" does not exist. --LarryMac 23:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

They're exact homophones for most people here in Tallahassee, Florida. —Keenan Pepper 20:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say they are. Visualize Whirled Peas. --Zemyla^t 21:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

We used to have an article on this; now it's been merged into a larger article. See Phonological history of English consonants#Wine-whine merger. Angr (talk) 21:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Aaaah! Thank you Zemlya! I've been wondering what "Visualise whirled peas" meant for years! Grutness...wha? 01:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It is for me. --Proficient 06:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It's mixed in northeast Ohio. Most say them both as 'world' while enough preserve the 'h' sound of the 'wh' so that you're not surprised to hear 'whirled' or 'while' or 'wheel' etc. pronounced with a noticably different 'wh' sound. -LambaJan 03:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

In England, "wh" has all but disappeared for anyone under the age of 50. I think "w/wh" is still a live distinction in Scotland though. Jameswilson 22:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Evildoers vs Do-gooders?

Why do we use those two terms? Why not do-evilers or gooddoers? --Zemyla^t 21:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing to avoid the awkward combination of two vowels or two consonants? --ByeByeBaby 00:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "Evil-doers" represents a common type of English compound (noun + verb + agent suffix) which goes all the way back to Indo-European, while "Do-gooder" represents a verb+noun type of compound which is not too common or productive in the English language, and which approximates towards pure phrasal words such as "wannabe" or "has-been" (which are not true compounds at all). I would assume that the difference is that "evil-doer" is an ordinary (or even slightly literary) English word formed in a normal morphological manner, while "do-gooder" originated as a kind of derogatory or semi-contemptuous slang term (which explains the minor anomaly of the agent suffix "-er" being added onto something which is not a verb -- neither "good" nor "do-good" are verbs). AnonMoos 14:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You can find many things that can be juxtaposed in the manner you're describing. It's just that way. --Proficient 06:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

June 11

Japanese "Just kidding!"?

This has been bugging me for a long time now, but what is the exact Japanese phrase that is often translated as "just kidding"? Examples of the phrase in use are:

• Soul Calibur 2 (in Japanese) - Xianghua says it ALL THE FREAKING TIME (she actually says several variations.

The best I can get is nanten ne (難点ね), which would be something like "you're so weak (gullible)". I'm not certain of what exactly they're saying though, which makes this really hard for me to translate on my own. Would like romaji and kanji of what is being said please. --SeizureDog 03:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Note: I made the file start pretty much as soon as the phrase does, and it ends up skipping over the sound in my Windows Media Player, you might want to try an alternate player (VLC works fine).--SeizureDog 03:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

She is saying nan te ne (何てね). --Kusunose 13:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Which said sarcastically apparently implies that what was just said is rediculous, hence the "just kidding" translation. It's not very common, I've never actually heard anyone say it in that way before.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So they're literally just saying "what"? A lot seems to be lost in translation here... And I have been finding it to be rather common in anime. I know I've heard it used at least 5 times. It's used more than "uso desu" from what I've been watching at least. Any other phrases that could be translated as "just kidding" I should know? --SeizureDog 06:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not "what". I think it's more like the short form of "なんて言ったけど、実は違うんだよね // I said so(なんて), but actually it's not true. ("ね" does not have actual meaning)". BTW note this word is usually written in hiragana: なんてね. About usage, it is used when you would like to obfuscate your real intention or to hide your feelings (shame or something). The basic structure is "(statement of something very cool or impressive) + ... なんてね (negateing the statement = オチ)". Here are examples:

• Joke: "寿司をおごってあげようか？ ...なんてね（= なんて言ってみたけど冗談だよ）。 // Shall I buy you Sushi? ... Well, it's just a joke." - The translation I'm kidding might come from this type of usage. In this case, the speaker probably would not and will not buy Sushi. The person who are talked to may also know that the speaker cannot afford to.
• Showing humility: (for instance in a diary) "今日はメッチャ頑張りました！ ...なんてね（= とは言ってもたいしたこと無かったかな）。 // I worked quite hard today! ... Uh, well, actually not that much." - Several cases can be thought. 1) The writer/speaker really feels that he or she did work very hard but he or she does not want to show it off. 2) The writer/speaker feels he or she have done a relatively good job, but is also aware that compared to some other's work it's far from satisfactory. 3) Joke. In reality the speaker worked no harder than usual.

なんてね seems to have something in common with "なんちゃって", though this can also be used as an adjective.

I feel these expressions are mainly used in written Japanese. You can google and find many examples, but you probably will not hear they said, I guess. They're too dramatical (They may respond, "Manga no yomi sugi ja naino? // You read too much Manga..."). --marsian 14:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. I have this image in my head of a college student scratching the back of his neck with a grin (苦笑い) saying "なんてね", but I doubt anyone has actually ever done that seriously, intentionally. If were talking about natural, common expressions, try on this (slightly Shibuya-ized) quote: "あいつと付き合うなんてありえねぇ！" (Go out with that guy? No way!/As if!/Screw that!/You're kidding!).

Maybe it's a Tokyo thing but I don't really know any Japanese that use overtly sarcastic speech, and I am misunderstood frequently when I attempt to be sarcastic. Too bad : (.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This has all been very informative. I didn't even consider it being a contraction (and even if I had, there's no way I would have been able to figure it out on my own). Much thanks to everyone for helping me figure it out, especially marsian for his long explanation. --SeizureDog 03:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Unduking?

Is there a term for the dismissal or deposition of a nobleman, e.g. an earl, duke, marquis, etc, analogous to the term "defrocking"? Bhumiya (said/done) 04:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a single term, as such. Speaking only of the British peerage system, if someone inherits a title he doesn't want to have, he is (since the passage of the Peerage Act 1963) able to "disclaim" it. Once this is done, it cannot be undone. On his death, and only on his death, the title will pass to his heirs as if he had held it. A peer can involuntarily lose his title by several means: the more common was being "attainted" on being convicted of a crime, imaginary or otherwise. His title and all his worldly goods were thereupon forfeited to the Crown: his heirs got nothing (often this was reversed after a generation or two). A peer can also be divested of his titles by Act of Parliament: notably this happened via the Titles Deprivation Act 1917 by which British peers or princes who served in an enemy military force, or rendered assistance to or voluntarily resided in an enemy nation were deprived of their British titles and honours. And, of course, when a peer becomes king, the title is said to "merge in the Crown" and ceases to exist. - Nunh-huh 05:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 08:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

About the Vocabulary

I am stedent of Ninth class my name is Zubair and I have a question about the english language I have need easy vacabulary and those words are use our daily life and mostly sentences. I have hope that you give give me a suggestion about that and tell me about that how can I improve English language more my pronounciation is week how can I Improve this skill. Thankyou Sir Bye —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22:37, June 10, 2006 (talk • contribs) 80.247.152.67.

Make sure that you all know all of the basic 1500 words shown here.

Corrections to your post:

• Vacabulary → vocabulary
• stedent → student
• Ninth class → ninth grade
• week → weak (a week is seven days; weak is to be not strong)
• pronounciation → pronunciation

Hope that helps.--SeizureDog 08:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

'Ninth grade' is American; UK is 'year nine'; Indian is 'class nine' or 'ninth standard'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.92.196.79 (talk • contribs) 10:11, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

In Canadian English, "Ninth Grade" is referred to as "Grade Nine", (or, in my jurisdiction, at least, it's official name is "Secondary III", (referring to the third year of High School) but nobody I know actually uses that form in casual conversation. It's much more commonly known here as "Grade Nine"). Loomis51 21:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It is also called a freshman year in the US (when you are in your freshman year you are a freshman).--Yarnalgo 18:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Australia also uses year nine, Hong Kong uses Form three (I believe the UK sometimes uses forms as well). Freshman year doesn't only refer to the first year of high school, it can also refer to the first year of college. --ColourBurst 18:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

You might find the Simple English version of Wikipedia useful.--Shantavira 10:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Your post using correct grammar (and spelling, etc.):

I am a student in ninth grade. My name is Zubair and I have a question about the English language. I have a basic vocabulary and the sentences and words I use are sentences and words used in daily life. I hope that you give me a suggestion about my English and tell me how I can improve my English. Also, my pronunciation is weak and I hope that you can tell me how I can improve this skill. Thank you sir. Bye

--Yarnalgo 18:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

For learning natural English, outside of school, I recommend you watch English movies with English subtitles (this is easy if you have a DVD player).

• Your reading speed will increase
• You will become accustomed to English at a natural speed (it will be easier to understand fast English)
• You will learn common, useful English, not boring, often useless textbook English
• You can watch interesting movies while you learn

If you want to improve your pronunciation, talk to your friends in English. If you don't have English speaking friends, then you can only practice by yourself. Listen to what you hear in English, and try to copy it exactly.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree that both the audio and the subtiles should be on English though. For learning it is better to have one be your native language and the other be English. It's not fun to watch a movie full of parts you don't understand, and he's not going to learn anything if there's nothing to judge by.--SeizureDog 09:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Though I don't have any studies to back me up, no, I don't believe that works at all. I've watched foreign movies with English subtitles for more than a decade and while I've learned a few phrases here and there, I never developed any skills that way. While you hear the spoken language, you don't actually attempt to understand it, and you become completely dependant on the subtitles. True it is a bit frustrating to watch foreign movies when you can't understand much of what's going on, but that becomes the key to learning, as you naturally adapt to the unfamiliar situation and your brain starts accepting unfamiliar input at an increased speed. It is a fact that immersion is the fastest way for most people to learn languages, not by translation, which is basically what watching a foreign movie with English subtitles is like. Also, it's not like there's "nothing to judge by"; he can see gestures, facial expressions, and he obviously has a basic English ability to lean on. A handy dictionary is also a big plus, because you can just look each new word up as it comes.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  02:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

...The BBC broadcast programs on the World service which can be listened to on the radio and computer and many people use it to improve their English by listening to it.(hotclaws**== 11:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC))

Also

Which is the correct use of the word also

1. There were several others also.
2. There were also several others.
3. There also were several others.
4. Also there were several others.

are they all correct in their respective languages (american/british english) or is one a colloquialism, or something. Philc _T^E_C^I 16:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Number 3 is a little stylistically awkward, and Number 4 demands a comma. Otherwise, numbers 1,2,4 are all perfectly fine, but could have different rhetorical emphases (depending on exactly what the intended function of the sentence is with respect to the sentences surrounding it). AnonMoos 16:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say 1 is colloquial, 2 is standard, 3 is dubious. 4 is considered dubious by some, which may be a reason not to use it. Henry^Flower 16:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think 3 is fine. It's a bit more emphatic. Maybe, it requires commas or pauses on both sides of the also mnewmanqc

Hmm, if you put commas in, then it seems to me to be saying "In that place, as in other previously mentioned places, were several others." —Bkell (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

As can 4. I'd say 2 was the clearest and least ambiguous, to my ears. Skittle 21:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

They all seem valid to me, I'd want some more context before determining which phrase to use, and what additional punctuation might be necessary. --LarryMac 14:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

i'd say 1) sounds like what you often hear non-natives (especially scandanavians) say so i for one have come to accept it as normal even though deep down i know its probably not. 3 and 4 dont really work as stand-alone sentences but could be shoe-horned in somewhere. i'm plumping for number 2 but who knows! 87.194.20.253 00:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Most people just use whichever is more common in their area. --Proficient 06:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeh, I know, but that would make it a colloquialism, which is not (necessarily) correct. Philc _T^E_C^I 10:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

June 12

Examinations

What does a student do with an examination? Does he "give the exam" or "take the exam" or "sit for the exam" or "participate in the exam" or ...?

Also, what happens when he succeeds? Does he "pass the exam" or "be successful in the exam" or "qualify the exam" or ...? I get the feeling that "qualifying an exam" is a peculiar result of translation from some Indian language, because (1) I hear it very often, but it sounds odd to me (2) most search-engine results for "qualify {an|the} exam[ination]" are pages from India.

How do I type ellipses? Shreevatsa 05:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

A student can "take the exam", "sit for the exam", or "participate in the exam" but the term, "take the exam" is a lot more widely used. If they were the one to "give the exam" they would be the teacher. Also, "passing the exam" and "being successful in the exam" are also both correct, and I think you theory of the Indian translation is correct because the term "qualifying an exam" is not only not used but it is not correct grammar (it would be "qualifying for an exam" which means something different).

To type an ellipse, just type three periods ("...") or you can type it with spaces in between (". . ."). It also works the same way with asterisks ("***" or "* * *") but periods are more widely used. --Yarnalgo 05:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"Indian translation" seems to be alive and well (lol). What you just described is ellipsis. An ellipse is an elongated circle. JackofOz 07:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

And remember an ellipsis (or a pregnant pause) should have a space before and after it. Something most people don't bother with ... which mildly irritates me :) Proto||type 11:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry didn't see that he said "ellipses" instead of "ellipsis", and sorry about the space thing :). Yarnalgo 17:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

But he did say "ellipsis". Or rather, he said "ellipses", which is the plural of "ellipsis" as well as the plural of "ellipse".

Isn't English fun?  :) — Haeleth Talk 21:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually in fine typography the spaces between consecutive periods in an ellipsis are less than a full-width space. There's a special Unicode character for an ellipsis for this reason (…); when editing a Wikipedia page, you can find it in the box of characters below the edit box. In TeX, you would type \dots to get an ellipsis. But for normal typing you can get away with three periods. —Bkell (talk) 21:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Grandparent

Do people in some cultures differentiate granny from grandma, likewise grandpa from grandad, to address mother's parent and father's repsectively? Or was it just my imagination? --Chan Tai Man 09:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Tamil people do distinguish them. For example, ammaachchi/ammaththaa (a conflation of ammaa (mother) and aachchi (grandma)) and appaayee/appaththaa (a conflation of appaa (father) and aayee (grandma)). There are variants in the different dialects of different regions. But, this distinction is fading away in urban dialects and people are settling for a common paatti. Interestingly, such distinctions don't exist for grandpas, at least as far as I'm aware of. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Your question is not completely clear to me, but yes, there are kinship terminologies which distinguish mother's father from father's father, and also mother's mother from father's mather. In a unilineal non-moiety system, only one of your four grandparents will generally belong to the same kinship group that you do... AnonMoos 09:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a real article on comparative kinship terminologies... AnonMoos 09:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Please see kinship terminology. — Reinyday, 04:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me. I did make it clear that I was asking from a language usage perspective. Okay, let me rephrase my question. In English speaking cultures, especially Yorkshire in England. When someone says granny, who does s/he refer to? What about grandma, grandpa and grandad? --Chan Tai Man 09:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well in my family (originally from Birmingham) we make a distinction, but I think it's a convenience thing rather than a tradition. Since my parents were the first from both their sets of siblings to have children, they basically got to choose both sets of grandparent names. I'd say it isn't tradition in this case because, certainly on my mother's side, the names we call her parents are not the same as the names she called her grandparents. Everyone I know has some method of distinguishing which grandparents they are talking about, but often they take the route of adding actual names to the 'titles', rather than the route we take, which is more like what you are talking about. I've never noticed a pattern of names linked to maternal/paternal sides, and I can imagine such a thing being confusing if the grandparents had a mixture of sons and daughters, but then I don't know that many yorkshiremen/women. Skittle 10:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of this sort of distinction made on an individual (family-by-family) basis, but I haven't heard of such a distinction being systematically made in any English-speaking community. In my own family we called our grandparents on both sides "Grandma" and "Grandpa", and if disambiguation was necessary we added the last name ("Grandma Smith" vs. "Grandma Jones"). Angr (talk) 10:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not as black and white as "mother's mother is called X and father's mother is called Y". There are various names a grandmother might be called in English speaking countries - Grandma, Granny, Nan, Nanna, Nanny, etc. It's quite possible the same grandmother will be called all of these things by different grandchildren. Same for grandfathers (Grandad, Grandpa, Grandpop, Pop, Poppy .....). What each is called comes down to (a) what the grandparent prefers to be known as (b) the parents' wishes and (c) that fact that it's confusing for a small child to call both grandmothers the same thing, so usually if one is "Grandma", the other gets a different name for the children of those parents. JackofOz 10:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your clear explanation. You suggested that "names linked to maternal/paternal sides ... confusing if the grandparents had a mixture of sons and daughters". I think you're right. Nevertheless, in other cultures where father's parents and mother's are clearly distinguished, it wouldn't be a problem at all. Tamil was suggested earlier. As a Chinese man, we -- at least for old fashion people like me -- would hardly mention the names of our parents or parents-in-law in our whole life written or spoken, unless for filling a form or something similar. Among my siblings, my sisters have kids much eariler than I do. Thus, my parents are usually refered as mother's father and mother's mother. I sometimes called them the same (as pet names) as if I were a grandson. Since I have my own kids, I changed to call them father's father and father's mother instead when I wasn't addressing them properly father and mother. Sometimes, I do slip my tougue and call them otherwise. As for my kids, they always address my parents as father's father and father's mother correctly without fail. I suspect my parents will be upset a little (or maybe just a mild surprise) if were addressed otherwise. My kids always understand mother's father and mother's mother relate to my wife not me. --Chan Tai Man 10:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

In Swedish, yes. Grandfather is farfar (father's father; paternal grandfather) and morfar (mother's father; maternal grandfather). Then, as you can probably guess, the words for grandmother are mormor and farmor. --Chris S. 23:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

In most Indian languages, yes. Like in Hindi 'Dada' and 'Dadi' are paternal grandparents and 'nana' and 'nani' are maternal grandparents. In most Indian cultures there are a hundred different names for all the uncles and aunts too :P --Siddyjain 06:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

In Chinese there's different phrases for both mother's parents and father parent's, but I can't remember the exact phrase right now.... Wizrdwarts (T|C) 22:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Platypus schmatypus

Hello all. A question - when it comes to articles on animals, the standard policy seems to be to have the general animal in lower case (such as: dog, shark, bear, toad), and capitalise specific animal species (such as: Great Dane, Great White Shark, Grizzly Bear, Cane Toad). So, my question is thus: a) is this right? Not all the articles are in this form (see, for example polar bear). b) The platypus article - should platypus be in lower case, or upper case? Is it "platypus" or "Platypus"? My instinct says lower case, because upper case just looks wrong, but the people who edited the article reverted me when I changed it. Proto||type 11:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

This is an issue on which editors disagree, and no attempt to resolve the issue has succeeded. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna)#Capitalization of common names of species for a rough summary of the current compromise, and the archives of WT:TOL for the discussions that led to the compromise. (Start with this discussion from 2004 and work your way forward through the archives...) Gdr 12:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'd say lowercase, except as used in my username :). At least that's what the Australian Platypus Conservancy uses in their platypus-related texts, and they'd know, wouldn't they? And the plural they use is "platypus", not "platypuses" or "platypi", although I personally prefer the sound of the last one. (Who doesn't?) --BluePlatypus 19:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Who doesn't? Anyone who's studied ancient Greek and therefore knows the correct plural of "platypus" is "platypodes". Angr (talk) 19:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

But it's not a Greek word (wouldn't it be "platypous" then, too?), it's an English word. You don't pronounce it as Greek, do you? :) Anyway, the usage of "platypi" is pretty established. Try googling it. --BluePlatypus 00:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd vote for lower-case species names, but this is an issue that's been going on for years with no consensus. To me a species of animal is like a flavor of ice cream. One doesn't write "I went to the store and bought some Chocolate Chip Ice Cream," so why would you say "I went to the zoo and saw a Great White Shark"? —Bkell (talk) 21:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Mmmm, Platypi.

BluePlatypus, given your well-known views about the absurdities of English spelling, I'm surprised that you have no objections to the use of a Latin plural for "an English word", and one that's not even of Latin derivation. If established usage makes platypi an OK plural of platypus, why doesn't the "established usage" argument satisfy you when it comes to apparently crazy spellings of English words generally?  :--) JackofOz 02:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

True, it's not the correct Latin plural AFAIK. "Common usage" is an argument for what people are saying, not how it should be spelled. (Obviously "platypus"/"platypuses"/"platypi" are not variant spellings!) But anyway, I don't see how this really contradicts the idea of sane spelling, because I don't propose a total reform making every single word follow the regular pattern. I don't propose changing words that are in use. You have to prioritize the most used and most misspelled words. That's what they've done in every other language that's had spelling reforms. And even those, such as Norwegian, do still retain some irregular Latin forms. (They still spell the more common words sanely. "Central station" is "Sentralstasjon", which in the 'equivalent' English would be "Sentral Stayshun". ) --BluePlatypus 19:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Uggh !!! Best of luck with that, mate. JackofOz 14:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And how many platypuses in a gaggle? - Nunh-huh 02:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the plural is a platter of platypi. And if it isn't, it should be. Thanks to all for your responses :) Proto||type 12:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. "Platter of platypi" makes me want to reach for the mint jelly.... - Nunh-huh 22:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Language :Chinese to English

The word in chinese language for word in English "Vegetarian" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.177.11.134 (talk • contribs) 07:42, June 12, 2006 (UTC)

Hm...the interwikilink gives zh:素食主義 but I don't know what that says. Best to wait for another Wikipedian to come by. In the meantime, you can reach this by going to the English article on Vegetarian, and then clicking on 中文 for Chinese. --HappyCamper 15:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Not very helpful, the original question (which wasn't a question, more like a command). There are two dialects of written Chinese, traditional and simplified. For some reason I'm guessing he/she wants to use the word on a Chinese language tattoo, in which case I'm going to point him/her straight to [6]. --ColourBurst 17:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it's one word.Yanwen 20:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

素食者or素食主義者--K.C. Tang 01:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Or in uglified characters: 素食主义者. Kusma (討論) 01:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope you're only kidding... but then many people misunderstand the raison d'être of simplified Chinese characters.--K.C. Tang 08:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I doubt whether the chinese even have a word for 'vegetarian'. --Siddyjain 06:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

you can write 茹素者 if you want it sound more "literary"--K.C. Tang 08:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

And I must ask User:Siddyjain why you doubt whether there is a Chinese word for "vegetarian"? There are, of course, many Chinese vegetarians, and, in fact, you can be certain that the word "vegetarian" exists in every language in the world large enough and old enough that such a topic has come up at some time.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Since many Buddhists don't eat meat (among other dietary restrictions) there's an important school of Chinese vegetarian cuisine. See our article on Buddhist cuisine. Gdr 09:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering if, even if there is a roughly equivilent word, that the definition carries over culturally. I say this because I'm under the impression that the Chinese generally don't consider fish to be on the same level as other meat and could therefore consider someone who eats fish but no other animal meats to be a vegetarian. This is not the soundest bit of information, but it seems to be supported anecdotally in my own experiences. -LambaJan 04:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Not considering fish to be meat is hardly unique to Chinese culture. Kashrut prohibits eating meat together with milk products, yet a classic Jewish favorite food is bagels with cream cheese and lox (smoked salmon) -- because fish doesn't count as meat. Or traditionally in Roman Catholicism, meat was prohibited on Fridays and during Lent (nowadays it's the intersection rather than the union of the two sets: meat is prohibited on Fridays during Lent). But fish is allowed, because again, fish doesn't count as meat. Angr (talk) 05:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

i remember that there is an old joke about the Catholics baptizing meat into fish on Fridays.--K.C. Tang

Josephus Work

I need to find out if Josephus works are available in the Spanish language, and if so, where can I get copies of it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.33.108.186 (talk • contribs) 22:36, 12 June 2006.

You may want to check out es:Flavio Josefo, there appears to be a link to a PDF of the Jewish War.--Andrew c 23:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

But be careful -- the accuracy of modern versions of Josephus is often debated. -- Mwalcoff 00:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

June 13

Korean tongue twister

Is there a well known Korean tongue twister that focuses on the "ch" syllable? --HappyCamper 02:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

경찰청 쇠창살 외철창살, 검찰청 쇠창살 쌍철창살. It means, "Police Agency's iron-bars [are] single-iron-bars, Prosecutors' Office's iron-bars [are] double-iron-bars." --Kjoonlee 11:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful - thank you so much!!! :-) --HappyCamper 21:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The Korean Wikipedia has a list of tongue twisters. Gdr 09:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The iron bars example is already a pen twister. --DLL 18:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Rape Rooms

Wassup, peeps. What in the world are these "rape rooms" I hear so much about whenever people talk about Iraq? I tried searching Google, and came up with three kinds of webpages: Bush talking about shutting down the rape rooms, porn sites making their own rape rooms (in reality, presumably consensual-sexual-intercourse-with-adequate-minimum-wage-or-other-compensation rooms), and one question site with somebody asking this exact same question, and a bunch of other people attempting (and failing) to answer. Black Carrot 03:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never actually heard of those rooms at all before. Nor do I wish to google them up. But it seems interesting that they're not widely discussed or heard about in the news, if I am not mistaken. --Proficient 06:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That's odd. I've heard about them quite a few times, and if you do google it (look for news sites, that'll steer you clear of the rest) I think you'll find that Bush has mentioned it often. Black Carrot 20:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Yo, peeps, maybe it's so hard to find info on these apparently government sanctioned "rape rooms" because they simply DON'T EXIST. Yes, rape, and "rape rooms" may indeed exist, but not every bad thing in the world is the responsibility and creation of mean old George W. I know to many, the current president of the US is, quite plainly, the source of all evil. If that's your position, peeps, I'm sorry, but I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise. Loomis51 01:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No need to convince anybody of anything. Black Carrot was merely inquiring about the so-called "rape rooms" that many people are talking about, I assume because he wasn't sure either if they existed or not. Since I myself have heard occasional mentions about such rooms, I am also a bit curious.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, nobody was suggesting they were caused or sanctioned by Mr B. :-S Black Carrot was asking about them because he had heard Bush talking about taking action against them. Seems like you have a reflex reaction of your own when you see "Bush" and "Iraq" in the same paragraph. Skittle 09:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Loomis, I think you should be a little less sensitive. Not everything is an anti-semitic attack, and not every question about Iraq is a rant by an irrational liberal. You are of course welcome to your opinions, but attacking the questioner is pretty counterproductive for the reference desk. -lethe ^{talk +} 22:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Italian Names

Oh, and do you know of any Italian surnames that don't end in a vowel? Black Carrot 03:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

According to this list, there are none. Related fact: there are none in Japanese either, though that's kind of pushing it, because the only consonant final syllable in Japanese (at least as far as romanization goes) is n, which doesn't appear at the end of any originally Japanese names.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I can think of one: Furlan. I'd bet there are lots of others. JackofOz 06:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking at List of Italians, I see Enrico Berlinguer and Mario Berlinguer, though the name might be of French extraction originally, I suppose. There's also Vittorio Gassmann ... User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A lot of Italian names of Roman origin don't end in vowels, such as "De Laurentiis". --66.54.184.41 18:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

But can you really call those Italian names? I don't know I figured he was only considering traditional Italian names, as I'm sure there's loads of Giovanni Smiths in Rome.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Andrea de Cesaris? JackofOz 06:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Tullio Serafin? JackofOz 07:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sophia Loren? Nicolas Cage? Oh, wait... Angr (talk) 08:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Gianluigi Buffon? Ken 17:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Category:Italian footballers has quite a few ending in "-n" which suggests that it can be a "genuine" Italian ending for surnames.

Another odd writing behaviour

Sometimes while writing (not typing) I often start writing a 'b' instead of a 'p' and i start writing 'd' instead of 'g' (like after the circle thing I draw a line upwards instead of downwards). Is this normal? This has only started happening recently like from 2 years ago. Am I strange or what? --Siddyjain 06:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of left-handers doing "mirror-writing" but this is a new one. You're not left-handed, perchance? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

All this writing behaviour sounds normal to me but I'm dyslexic Maybe it's mini-dyslexia? a mild form? I'm not being sarcastic(hotclaws**== 12:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC))I typed "behind " by mistake,sometimes dyslexia is fun

An inversion of ascenders and descenders (French - hampes and queues). This is nothing sexual I presume ? --DLL 19:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

If you write the way I write, they actually aren't that different. I write a 'b' by drawing a long stroke down, then a clockwise circle/oval from there. I write a 'p' by drawing a long stroke down, then coming all the way back up, and continuing into a clockwise circle/oval from there. In the same vein, I write a 'd' by drawing a counterclockwise circle/oval, continuing it into a long up stroke, then coming all the way down again. I write a 'g' by drawing a counterclockwise circle/oval, stopping, and drawing a long, curved down stroke. So, it's not such a big mixup. Black Carrot 20:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Top to-bottom aaand up and round." (I doubt we have this link) Skittle 09:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Plural of faust in German

Hi,

If I am correct, "die Faust" is a feminine noun in German, for 'the fist'

But what is the plurar

die fauste, die fausten, die fäusten?

ThanksEvilbu 19:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"die Fäuste". Kusma (討論) 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. So when Wolff Biermann sings about "aus die Fäusten", a dative must be used? In that case I was just confused, because for accusative, nouns themselves do not change.Evilbu 17:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

aus takes the dative, so aus die Fäusten is incorrect. It should be aus den Fäusten. Most nouns inflect for plurals (eg. ¨-er), genitive singulars (eg -s), and dative plurals (-n), but not accusitive singulars, as you point out. Some nouns inflect for all oblique cases though. Words like Herr and Namen. -lethe ^{talk +} 22:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Languages during the Crusades

I presume that during the First Crusade, the Seljuk Turks spoke some form of Turkish, while the Crusaders spoke Old French, Old High German, and other such languages, and the Byzantines spoke some form of Medieval Greek. Would there have been a lingua franca for all the Crusaders? Was one language dominant? And if the Crusaders ever communicated with their Turkish enemies, what language would they have used? Latin? Greek? French? Also, during the Third Crusade, it is known that Saladin and Richard I of England exchanged letters and established treaties. What language did they use for their correspondence? Bhumiya (said/done) 21:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As a partial answer, the article Kingdom of Jerusalem discusses the languages used by western settlers of the Holy Land after the conclusion of the First Crusade. Road Wizard 21:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

On the First Crusade the majority of crusaders would have spoken whatever language they used at home, which for most of them was some sort of "French", but since they came from all over France there would have been a bunch of dialects. And what about the Normans from Italy? Did they speak the same Norman French as the Normans from Normandy, who were also on the crusade? They tended to travel together but I honestly don't know if they spoke the same dialect. The lingua franca for the leaders was probably the most intelligible French dialect, although they wrote in Latin (and anyone educated enough to write knew how to write in Latin). Latin was probably also the lingua franca among the clergy, and they could have then translated things into the dialect of their followers. When communicating with the Greeks, Turks, and Arabs, they used translators - the Greeks had a lot of western translators with them (often Normans from Italy), so they could translate from French and probably Latin to Greek, and there were some Byzantine translators travelling with the crusaders after they left Constantinople, who could translate from Arabic or Turkish (and you can see them at work in the sources, at least implicitly, when so-and-so crusader who obviously wouldn't know Arabic is talking to so-and-so emir who obviously wouldn't know French). On the First Crusade they also had to interact with Armenians, but they had been in such close contact with the Byzantines that there were lots of Armenian-Greek translators around. By the Third Crusade, a lot of crusaders native to the Latin Kingdom knew how to speak Arabic, and some of them (Humphrey IV of Toron and Reginald of Sidon spring to mind) acted as translators between Richard and Saladin. If they were writing letters someone would have translated it for them while reading (or wrote a second copy in translation). I don't know if any Muslims ever learned Latin or French, they don't seem to have ever bothered making the effort. Adam Bishop 21:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Adam and Road Wizard! That's about everything I needed to know. Bhumiya (said/done) 22:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The Turks called all Crusaders "Ferengi" (Franks), it's possible that that's because all of the Westerners they encountered spoke some form of French. Or Frankish. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

In the middle ages, most of what we know call Romance languages were mutually intelligible. Also, there was not really much of a sense of one being the standard. So a knight from Provence could speak Provençal while one from Paris spoke his version of French, and they just would understand each other mostly. They might also have accommodated to each other, the way that some Portuguese sometimes make their speech more comprehensible to Spanish speakers when they talk to them. I imagine that old Franconian would have fallen into disuse in Romance speaking areas. In the Germanic ones, it would be evolving into Dutch and other Low German dialects. mnewmanqc

My name

My name I go by is the same as my Username (Schyler). I was wondering what it means/where it comes from. My family came from Denmark in the late 18th century and Schyler was also my Great Great Grandfather's name. I have always been told it means wealth or close to that, but I don't know. It is pronounced "Shy" (like timid) and then "ler" By the way, what is a person from Denmark called? Danish? And what do they speak? Dutch? Thanks. schyler 23:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A person from Denmark is a Dane, they speak Danish (not sure if spelling is right). If your name is Germanic it is pronounced "shy" "ler." Emmett5 00:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yah, I know how to pronounce my name :) I never knew a person from Denmark was called a Dane. Any idea what it means though? schyler 01:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Danish is from Denmark; Dutch is from the Netherlands; Deutsch is from Germany. —Bkell (talk) 01:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Dutch version of your name might be Schuyler. I'm not sure how it's pronounced in general, but the town in Nebraska is pronounced "sky-ler". —Bkell (talk) 01:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If you put "Schyler meaning" into a search engine you will find there are numerous name origin websites which suggest that Schyler means sheltering.MeltBanana 02:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I deliberately didn't use Google because I was sure it wouldn't return anything. Thank you again. schyler 02:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

While this Google Search doesn't give any results, this Yahoo! Search gives what you want. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 07:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Dutch is not only spoken in the Netherlands, but also in neighbouring Belgium (in the northern part Flanders) and in Suriname. Five million compared to 16 million definitely makes us significant. Actually every Wikipedia article about a country gives a list of languages spoken there?Evilbu 17:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I didn't mean to slight Danish, Dutch, or German speakers in other countries; I was just trying to associate the names of the languages with the places they are named after. For example, I would have said that English is from England, even though many more English speakers live in the United States. The articles on each language should give a list of where the language is spoken. —Bkell (talk) 18:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah. It's a female name. It turns out that it was also my great great great grandmother's name, so that's where my great great grandfather got it. Thanks you. schyler 21:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

June 14

Korean Hanji of Sinanju

Please, any Korean or someone who knows Korean, what are the Hanji characters of Sinanju? I can write the first新 and last州 but not the middle.--Jondel 00:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a place in Pyeong-an namdo called Sinanju. Google tells me that it's 新安州 in Hanja. --Kjoonlee 01:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much Kjoon Lee. An yung hase yo.--Jondel 02:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

spanish words

what is the longest word in spanish?

la palabra más larga. Wait, that wasn't what you were after? GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 17:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Here you have some... My personal favourite is esternocleidomastoideo.--RiseRover|^talk 20:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Creo que la palabra mas larga es "Electroencefalográficamente". --vibo56 ^talk 20:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The longest spanish-sounding word in the spanish wikipedia appears to be Hipopotomonstrosesquipedaliofobia, an irrational fear of pronouncing long, unusual, or scientific words. According to the wictionary, is is synonymous with sesquipedaliofobia, perhaps the hippo and the monster were prepended just for emphasis. --vibo56 ^talk 21:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No, you'll find the version with "hippo" in English, too. Emmett5 23:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If I am not missing something, the most non-medical spanish word is "anticonstitucionalmente," which means anticonstitutionally

About the letter e prepended to word roots beginning with s

English and some other languages have some words which include a prefixed letter e (or maybe i) in front of a word root that likely begins with the letter s. Examples in English: the words estrange, estop, escrow. I am trying to remember what this prepended letter e (or i) is called. BillWhite 14:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• All of those come from Old French, which is where the "e" was added, except for "estrange", which comes from OF estrangier, which comes from L. extraneus. So it's not English doing it -- but indeed, what is the name for the phenomenon? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the "e" was added already in Vulgar Latin; the term for adding a vowel sound at the beginning of a word is prothesis. Angr (talk) 15:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

So it's a prothetic e, then. I attended a class about 39 years ago in which a teacher of Italian must have referred to a "prothetic i" (yes, i, actually), and I have tried ever since to pin down that word. Thank you very much indeed. BillWhite 16:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in Vulgar Latin it was actually a prothetic i. (Not to be confused with a prosthetic eye.) Angr (talk) 16:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That was especially humorous, Angr. JackofOz 20:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What's a "scrow"? Loomis51 01:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Special Italian Translation

Hello,

My name is Xander Lorenz, and I'll get to the point. I am dating a wonderful young lady of Italian decent. Her mother still lives in Italy and her father goes to visit regularly. I am planning to ask this amazing girl to marry me and I thought it would be nice to ask her fathers permission in Italian. I don't want to spend the money on an entire Italian language resource for just a few sentences, so if you could help I would be MOST appreciative. I need to know how to say, "Mr. Velardo, I would like your permission to ask your daughter to be my wife". Also, how would I ask her as well? "Wendy, will you marry me?"

I know that these quick phrases would help make the moment that much more memorable. Please help if you can, and if not, could you point me in the right direction? I am planning on asking her THIS weekend, the 16th-18th while we take a short vacation. This isn't last minute, I've been scouring the internet for weeks to find a translator program or something, but to no avail. You are my last hope!!!

Forever in your debt,

The hopeful bride-groom, Xander Lorenz

ANYONE out there!!!! can you help me???????????? PLEASE!!!!!!!

I don't speak Italian. But I do know of a fairly good translator online. Try Babelfish. — Michael J 21:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you VERY much, that's all I needed. Wish me luck!!!! Xander

I wish you luck. Especially because there is good reason to be cautious with automatic translations ("The vodka is good, but the meat is rotten"). A humourous mistranslation (or a mispronunciation for that matter) might make the moment even more memorable :-). Good luck! --vibo56 ^talk 21:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

A French speaker/writer cannot hide his/her gender.

Hi,

when you write French, you have to take genders into account.

I am sorry. = Je suis désolé. (for a man)

           = Je suis désolée. (for a woman)

But if I am not mistaking, you actually hear it too when talking :

I am strong. = Je suis fort. (for a man)

            = Je suis forte.(for a woman)

This is correct, right? Now I was wondering, what other languages have this too? I don't know any other language (except Latin perhaps) that does this (I know Dutch, English and enough German to know it doesn't do it either.)

And by the way : isn't this very hard to teach a child. Usually you learn talking by hearing conversations between other people, and by being talked to. But if you are a boy and you have a sister, wouldn't you find it very confusing that what you say isn't necessarily correct for your sister. And suppose you are a girl living in all female family, doesn't that profoundly influence your language?

Well, those are my questions, I've been learning French for eight years but I never realised that this is quite unique. Evilbu 17:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

As to your second question, I heard of a man learning Korean as a second language. He learned from a group of women, and was later told he "talked like a woman." Apparently there's significant gender differences in the spoken Korean language. moink

The same thing happens in Japan. --ColourBurst 19:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's much stronger in Japanese. Japanese has different verb endings for male/female speech, but Korean doesn't; it must have been the style/manner of speech that had given him away. --Kjoonlee 02:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Many Romance languages (possibly all) only have two gender forms for nouns: masculine and feminine. Therefore, most nouns inherently indicate gender. In Spanish (maybe others, too), many adjectives also recieve gender, so to say "You are excited" in Spanish becomes "Estás emocionado" or "You are excited for a man." Spanish has the distinct advantage that adjectives only recieve gender if they end in a or o and that o endings are always masculine (for adjectives) and a endings are always feminine (again, for adjectives). Emmett5 17:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

All the Romance languages I'm aware of will make this distinction: in addition to French and Spanish, also Portuguese and Italian inflect predicate adjectives for gender, and in those languages too most adjectives will end in o when a man says "I am (whatever)" but in a when a woman says "I am (whatever)". Adjectives ending in e or a consonant don't change, though. In Portguese this even affects the way you say "thank you": a man says "Obrigado" but a woman says "Obrigada". In German, adjectives only inflect for gender in attributive position, not in predicative position: there's a difference between ein kranker Mann "a sick man" and eine kranke Frau "a sick woman"; but both men and women say Ich bin krank. The only sort-of exception is nouns that are inflected like adjectives. If a man says "I am a representative (in the Bundestag)" he says Ich bin Abgeordneter, but a woman says Ich bin Abgeordnete. Angr (talk) 18:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Semitic languages have gender distinctions in finite verbs (not just adjectives and pronouns), and for both 2nd and 3rd persons. Korean and Japanese don't have grammatical gender at all (as far as I'm aware), but do have somewhat well-defined masculine vs. feminine manners of speaking -- in Japanese this includes the use of more honorific forms by women, and the use of somewhat different pronoun forms and sentence-final grammatical particles by men vs. women (though such distinctions are partially breaking down in recent years). AnonMoos 19:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

FYI, there is article gender differences in spoken Japanese. --Kusunose 22:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC).

In French, the gender of possessive pronouns is governed by the relevant noun, rather than by the sex of the person concerned. For example, "His majesty" and "Her majesty" are both "Sa majesté" (literally, "Her majesty"), because "majesté" is feminine. JackofOz 20:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say Sa majesté should be translated literally into Her majesty when refering to a king. This would appear too odd to an English speaker to comprehend. The language simply works differently, and Sa majesté, le roi, should, in all fairness be translated "literally" as "His majesty, the king.

I think we're saying much the same thing, just in our own uniquely personal ways, Loomis. A literal reading of the individual words is "Her majesty the king", But translation of phrases or passages is not about putting down the literal meanings of individual words divorced from their surrounding context which gives them their ultimate meaning. I agree that the only correct translation of the meaning of the phrase is "His majesty the king" ( ... unless we're talking about Edward II or William III, where it'd be a toss-up between "Her majesty the king" and "His majesty the queen").  :--) JackofOz 00:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It is simply not true that son means "his" and sa means "her". His and her refer to the gender of the possessor, sa and son refer to the gender of the possessed. Sa is most literally translated "xyr feminine noun" and son "xyr masculine noun". Angr (talk) 06:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Mercy buckets, Angr. Strange concept that, letting the thing possessed control the case of the pronoun. The pronoun seems to be performing quite a different role, and even representing a different word, than in the English equivalent. In English, "his" represents the king, but "sa" in French seems to be representing majesty. Is that right? If so, why is a pronoun even required, if the word it's representing is still there? JackofOz 11:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sa is a pronoun, meaning it's standing in for a noun. The noun it's standing in for (called its antecedent) is indeed roi. However, its gender agreement is linked to the noun it governs, majesté, the same way the definite article agrees in gender with the noun it governs (le roi vs. la majesté). In German, possessive pronouns have to agree with both their antecedent and the noun they govern: sein is "his" or "its" before a masculine or neuter noun; seine is "his" or "its" before a feminine or plural noun; ihr is "her" or "their" before a masculine or neuter noun; ihre is "her" or "their" before a feminine or neuter noun. So "his Majesty" in German is seine Majestät while "her Majesty" is ihre Majestät. "His dog" is sein Hund and "her dog" is ihr Hund. (And that's just in the nominative; German has three more cases to go!) Angr (talk) 11:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Shudder ... Thanks again, Angr. JackofOz 09:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

With regards to the original question, the same holds true for Russian adjectives: In order to say "I am fat" a man would say: "Ya tolstoy", while a woman would say "Ya tolstaya". Similarly in Hebrew, should a man wish to say "I'm old", he would say "Ani zaken" while a women would say "Ani zkena".

The truth, it would seem, is that all these languages that have been referred to are not exceptions, but quite the norm. Oddly, it would seem that English is the oddball language that seems to have ridden itself of as many grammatical gender distinctions as possible. I think it's great, and I just wish other languages would follow. I do my best to hold back from laughing when, say, a francophone carpenter comes by and says something like: "The chair, she's broken". Huh? How am I supposed to know the gender of a certain piece of furniture like a chair? Bend over and look underneath...perhaps? Loomis51 22:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't speak for all Semitic languages, but Arabic does have gender distinction in verbs as User:AnonMoos noted, plus also in its nouns and adjectives. Speakers can also "speak like a woman" in the way they pronounce certain letters like ع, but not so much in their word choice, as others seem to be describing for Oriental languages above. - Draeco 04:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not hard for a child to learn. I just heard a two year old girl say "Estoy malita" (I'm not feeling well) as opposed to a boy saying "Estoy malito". It's easy because when people talk to the girl, they describe her using feminine variants. Native speakers don't make errors in inflectional distinctions like gender that can be a challenge for adult second language learners. I still don't always get the gender right in Spanish and Catalan despite speaking them for years. The same goes for those who learn nominal case endings if their L1 lacks those distinctions. mnewmanqc

Even in English, children learn to use gender in speech. If a child calls a woman a "he", you say, "No she's a woman." and so forth with other gender-specific words. I'd imagine it's something of the same in all languages. --Keitei (talk) 08:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

As a native Finnish speaker, I had imagined that grammatical gender distinction was an Indo-European oddity; it is not found in Finno-Ugric languages. Even learning to make the distinction between "he" and "she" causes much difficulty for Finns. However, the article on grammatical gender indicates that there are both languages with grammatical gender and languages without it all over the world. 84.239.128.9 07:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

But Finnish has the tar/tär feminine noun suffix, which traditionally (apparently not today) was used more widely and invariably than corresponding English suffixes, such as "-ess" etc. -- wiktionary:-tar AnonMoos 15:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

"A French speaker/writer can hide his/her gender." Instead of saying "I'm sorry", just say "My sorrow is great" in French (Ma désolation est ample). Looks a little like Chinese, too. --DLL 22:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, a much more common neutral term, without sounding Chinese, or seeming to have walked out of some sort of time machine, would be to simply state Je m'excuse. [Yes, I'm completely aware that I just used a split infinitive, ("to simply state") but dammit, split infinites just seem to flow better and I don't get the whole rule against them...but I digress] Literally it may sound like "excuse me", but in reality, for most cases where "I'm sorry" would be used in English, Je m'excuse would apply perfectly well. Most cases that is. Loomis51 01:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

ARR, MATEY!!

I checked the article on pirates, but it only partially answered my question. The article pointed out that much of what we believe in today of pirates in centuries past is fiction. However these pirates did exist, and whatever fictional depiction we have of them must have been at least partially influenced by fact.

What I'm curious about specifically is that peculiar accent pirates always seem to be depicted as having. As in: "Arr, matey!", "Yo ho ho and a bottle o' rum" (actually I think that one was made up by Robert Louis Stephenson in his Treasure Island). In any case I'm sure there was a good degree of reality to it (the accent at least). The accent actually seems mostly English (as in English English,) but of what regional accent I don't know. It also seems to have a bit of a tinge of Irish English, but that I'm not entirely sure about.

Of course not all pirates of that period were even English speakers, as many other seafairing nations had no doubt produced their fair share of pirates. In any case, in the case of English speaking pirates, if this is indeed a specific regional dialect of English, why would that region have had such a strong influence on pirate "culture"? Loomis51 18:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It's from the West Country dialects; the area's had a strong nautical connection, and several pirates were from there. —Zero Gravitas 18:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! That's actually fascinating, since it never occurred to me to match "pirate" English with "Carribean" English, as the two seem to be spoken which such different sounding accents. But now that I think of it, despite the huge difference in the accent, the grammar is remarkably similar. For example, compare the phrases "I be a pirate." with "I be Jamaican.", or the phrase borrowed from the article on West Country dialects: "If I'd a-know'd I 'ooden never a-went". Without hearing the actual accent, one couldn't be blamed for not being able to distinguish whether this was a quote from an English speaking native of the Carribean or an 18th century pirate! The unmistakable similarity in grammar had never occured to me. Thanks again! Loomis51 01:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

When I was a kid, school books even frightened us, with stories about pirates in the past who would show no mercy what so ever. I one heard a story about pirates cutting off hands of victims then tying them to a pole with honey all over them and finally leaving them for the bees to come. Was this complete and utter fiction then? Evilbu 08:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Reality is worse than fiction. Such torture, with ants or rats, is, or was, common. But not only amongst English seafarers I can assure : there were seas all over the globe. --DLL 22:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I heard once, from a less than reliable source, that it was one particular actor's bad imitation of a Welsh English accent in one famous pirate movie that started the ARRRRR thing. moink 01:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably Robert Newton playing Long John Silver in Treasure Island, though I have no idea if the character was supposed to be Welsh. moink 01:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This page] claims Silver was supposed to be Cornish. moink 01:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Another page crediting Newton with the creation of this stereotype. This just says a West Country accent, with Newton from Dorset trying to be Blackbeard from Bristol. moink 01:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For anyone interested in a good book about pirates that is supposed to be historically accurate fiction, I suggest "Wyvern" by A. A. Attanasio. It's one of the best books I've ever read. Enjoy! DDGordon. 70.230.195.199 01:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

word definitions

  What is the difference between judgement and opinion?

THank you.

See the wiktionary entries for judgement and opinion. Emmett5 22:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

One's opinion is to try to find homework done, and another's judgement is that it is very evil and should propel one directly into the flames of an infinite inferno. --DLL 22:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In legal proceedings in the USA, a judgement is the court's ruling. An opinion is the explanation of a court's ruling.

Language variants

I was browsing through the Manual of Style in the section about English language variants (British, American, Australian, etc.), and a question came to me. Are there such variants in other languages? For example, are there significant differences between Iberian Spanish and Latin American Spanish? Or Iberian Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese? French spoken in Canada and French spoken in France? Or other languages spoken in different parts of the world? The articles on these languages didn't seem to address this issue. (Or maybe I missed it.) — Michael J 21:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you missed it. Halfway down the page: Spanish_language#Variations and main article Spanish dialects and varieties. I'll bet if you look a little more carefully, you'll find information in the articles on French and Portuguese as well. -lethe ^{talk +} 22:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Grr, I am an idiot. <Bonks self in head.> Thanks for pointing me in the right place. — Michael J 22:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Latin languages all originated from the same spring some centuries ago. Now you must use a dictionary. The same should come for such distant countries, and quickly (no more petrol for planes, final crash of the Internet, &c. :) --DLL 22:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

As for Canadian French, there's certainly quite a difference between it and French French. (Too bad, unlike English English, French French is in red. It would be interesting to have at least some discussion on the difference between the French spoken in France and that spoken in other francophone countries. I realize it's not nearly as relevant as English English, but it would still be interesting).

I'm not quite sure what degree of difference you're looking for, so it's kind of hard to answer your question. In any case, don't hesitate to follow up with a more specific question about Canadian French, I'd be more than pleased to answer. Loomis51 22:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Welsh (Cymric) equivalent

I am looking for a translation of the name/referrent "Sara(h) of Tyre" "Sara(h)the Tyrian" "The Tyrian, Sara(h)" "Tyrian Sara(h)" or any reasonable phrase that denotes an un-married woman named Sara(h) who is designated as having lived in, or been born in Tyre (in modern Lebanon) anytime between 300 and 1500 CE. I haven't been able to find out how to formulate the name in either modern or medieval Welsh. Thank you very much for your help.

The very day the Tyrian reverend did marry Sara, it rained frogs. This tiny looking anecdote would be very important at the end of the story. --DLL 22:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

"Sara o ...." for "Sarah of ...", "Sara y ....es" for "Sarah the ...." - I can't recall what the Welsh form of Tyre is, and my old Welsh Bible including maps of the Holy Land is 40 miles away. -- Arwel (talk) 00:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Pennod 28 of Llyfr y Prophwyd Ezeciel talks about "Tyrus", so presumably that's the Welsh for Tyre. And Sarah does indeed simply seem to hbe Sarah, if Llyfr Genesis is anything to go by. Grutness...wha? 11:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

June 15

ancient aramaic translation

i am desperately searching for a translation from elglish into ancient aramaic. the passage comes from the book of revelations and it reads "I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE FIRST AND LAST, THE BEGINNING AND THE END." i have been searching in vein for a fair while but due to the fact that i am about as computer literate as a monkey with a keyboard up its bum, i am not having much luck. any help in this matter would be massivly helpful.

First of all, the passage in the original version of the New Testament as we have it is in Greek, not Aramaic (part of it is quoted at Alpha and Omega (Christianity)). Since Alpha and Omega are letters of the GREEK alphabet (there is no Omega in Aramaic), it would be rather speculative to try to transpose this into Aramaic... AnonMoos 04:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

AnonMoos is correct. Also, the Book of Revelation is absent from the early Syriac scriptures. The text that appears in the modern printed Peshitta, the Syriac text of Rev 22.13, is: ܐܢܐ ܐܠܦ ܘܐܢܐ ܬܘ ܩܕܡܝܐ ܘܐܚܪܝܐ ܘܫܘܪܝܐ ܘܫܘܠܡܐ, which can be transliterated as Enâ Ālap wenâ Ṯaw qaḏmāyâ wa'iḥrāyâ w-šûrāyâ w-šûlāmâ. — Gareth Hughes 18:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps interesting to note, that in Syriac, it reads "I am the alaph and the taw" ... ----Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 19:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Which are, of course, the first and last letters of most Semitic languages (BTW, I changed your link on Taw above to link to the article on Taw). Daniel (‽) 19:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

diplomatic language

Howdy, In diplomatic messages the wording appears to be of vital importance in the sense of, if a country is "concerned" about the behavior of another nation, it means, ho-hum. If on the otherhand they state that they are "gravely concerned", it means that the bombers are already in the air. Or something to that matter. What I am looking for is a glossery, dictionary, listing, of what the words and wording used and heard in daily newsbroadcasts really mean.

Can't resist again : Politically Correct Little Red Riding Hood
"There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived on the edge of a large forest full of endangered owls and rare plants that would probably provide a cure for cancer if only someone took the time to study them.
Red Riding Hood lived with a nurture giver whom she sometimes referred to as "mother", although she didn't mean to imply by this term that she would have thought less of the person if a close biological link did not in fact exist.
Nor did she intend to denigrate the equal value of nontraditional households, although she was sorry if this was the impression conveyed.
One day her mother asked her to take a basket of organically grown fruit and mineral water to her grandmother's house.
"But mother, won't this be stealing work from the unionized people who have struggled for years to earn the right to carry all packages between various people in the woods?"

See the rest. --DLL 22:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

English word for a Hindi word

Kindly tell me what we say "mundan"(means a baby first hair cut) in English

"Baby's first hair cut" seems to work for me. Like "baby's first step". English may not have a single word with this meaning. Probably because the English hate babies. -lethe ^{talk +} 14:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also — besides the hatred of babies (-: — there's no religious/cultural significance to a baby's first haircut in the UK/England. Probably not in the rest of Europe, either. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong. — vijay (Talk) 14:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Tonsure? deeptrivia (talk) 14:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear child! His mane is so mundane! --DLL 22:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, we have a whole first haircut article describing practices in different cultures.--Pharos 10:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Spelling bee analogues

Do any other languages besides English allow for spelling bees? I mean, having a spelling bee in Spanish or Italian would just be silly, but I'm sure there are other languages with less regular orthography, right? What about, say, Chinese? Do they have competitions in which children try to remember the right characters or something? The article has interlanguage links to Danish and Chinese, but the Chinese article looks like it's about English-language spelling bees. —Keenan Pepper 14:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The Chinese writing system certainly does allow for the theoretical possibility of spelling bees -- since often dozens of different written characters are all pronounced exactly the same in modern Mandarin, having to produce the correct written characters corresponding to an obscure word could be a real test of memory.

The French mainly have dictée in place of spelling bees -- i.e. taking dictation from an oral text, where the focus is often on grammatical rules (such as the convoluted rules of past participle agreement in the written language, which rarely have any actual phonetic realization in speech). AnonMoos 14:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe German schoolchildren also do dictation exercises like that, where the focus is partly on spelling but also largely on punctuation, which has much stricter rules than in English. Angr (talk) 15:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure we do dictation exercises as part of German class (until 8th or 9th grade), but I have never heard of spelling competitions like spelling bees in Germany. If they exist, they are not widespread. Kusma (討論) 15:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In Hindi there is little scope of ambiguity in sound-to-script conversion. Any word can be written on the fly even if you hadn't heard it before, and there are no spellings to remember. So, obviously, no such contests. deeptrivia (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Danish is irregular enough for spelling bees. Bhumiya (said/done) 19:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope, Danish spelling is reasonably predictable from pronunciation, just as Spanish and Italian are. --vibo56 ^talk 19:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Korean writing is basically phonemic, but it's also morphophonemic to a degree. There are no spelling bees in Korean, but dictation exercises are common. --Kjoonlee 00:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool, add that to the article Dictation (exercise). Use the Korean name; we'll get all multicultural and stuff. —Keenan Pepper 00:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

In France, Bernard Pivot has his dictées on TV (e.g.). This is a short example that you can hear and type on line : "La ronde des mots
Dans toutes les langues, jouer avec les mots est un passe-temps fort agréable, à la portée de tout le monde, des blancs-becs, des rimailleurs, des étudiants, comme des linguistes chevronnés et des académiciens tout de vert vêtus. Les mots sont des amis fidèles, des serviteurs zélés, qui se sont toujours prêtés à nos fantaisies, à nos manigances, à nos acrobaties intellectuelles. Les mots sont des cailloux, des bijoux, des cachous, des joujoux.
Sauf homonymie, chaque mot a un son qui n’appartient qu’à lui. Il y a des mots moelleux et des mots âpres. Des mots bien-aimés et des mots dont la réputation est détestable. Des mots vifs comme des libellules et des mots lourds comme des hippopotames. Des mots discrets comme des violettes et des mots m’as-tu-vu. Mais, quels qu’ils soient, tous les mots, même ceux qui désignent les maux les plus effroyables de l’humanité, méritent d’être connus. A nous de faire prospérer ceux qui nous font honneur." --DLL 22:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That's neat. I knew French had some things that were different in writing but not in speech, but I didn't know how hard it could be just to write down what someone says. I started an article Dictation (exercise); please expand it. —Keenan Pepper 00:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No spelling bees in Japanese for the same reason as Korean, but there are many other tests of ability (competitions implies a more serious participant group) such as reading ability (there are many old kanji and combinations of characters that are very difficult for even cultured Japanese to read) and even quiz/IQ shows based on puns, called dajare.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Dictations are also a popular exercise in Spanish schools. --RiseRover|^talk 13:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

origin of "the living daylights"

Hi

We are looking for the origin of the phrase or cliche "scare the living daylights out of someone". If you could help us to determine from what this quote came from, that would be great!

Thank you

That's a strange one isn't it? Apparently daylights used to be a slang word for eyes. The first written record in the OED is dated 1848, but it would have been well known before then. "We’ll catch the fever and ager,..and that’ll shake the day-lights out o’ us."--Shantavira 18:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Cannot point you to the origin of the phrase, and I'm probably stating the obvious, but anyway: I'm pretty sure it's a euphemism for "scare the shit out of someone", referring to the involuntary defaecation that can occur when you're in a state of terror. --vibo56 ^talk 19:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Penner

Is the German word "Penner" acceptable for daily use? I learnt it as the word for a homeless-person used in daily language in preference to the more formal "obdachloser" or Wohnungsloser". I have science been told however that it is derogatory and insulting. which word is preferable for daily use and which for formal use? Ken 17:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it's about parallel in tone and meaning to American English "bum"; like "bum" it can be used to mean a homeless person but also as a mild insult to a friend you're annoyed with. Because it comes the verb pennen (informal for "to sleep"), though, it can also suggest a careless or inattentive person in a way "bum" doesn't necessarily. Like most such words, how derogatory and insulting it sounds depends a lot on the tone of voice and general atmosphere in which it's said. I'd probably never call a homeless person "Penner" to his face unless he was a good friend. Maybe sort of the same level as "whore" for "prostitute". Angr (talk) 18:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

"Penner" is acceptable in informal conversations and for other colloquial uses. However, when used to address someone it is quite insulting, so just don't (unless kidding a good friend or something). For formal levels it's preferrable to use "Obdachloser". --82.207.217.5 00:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Fonts

How do I download fonts for non-Roman characters in Wikipedia? I'm still getting some of those "little squares" instead of the proper character.

You need a "Unicode font". Our article lists lots of them. --Heron 19:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

English language usage

I am writing about characters who lived during the 1930's all over the world. Specifically, I wonder when the usage of the word "joshing" (meaning kidding someone or teasing them) came about. Also, if it was used in the US or the UK or both. Any information about where I can go for time periods certain words or phrases were used would be extremely helpful. Thanks so much in advance for the help.

Evan Morris to the rescue. "Joshing" dates to the mid-19th century, and is (at least originally) an American word. —Zero Gravitas 20:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

A or An?

Is it a eulogy, or an eulogy? "A" sounds right, but my teacher said it was "an" because of the vowel. Thanks! 70.111.251.199 19:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd go with "a" because even though the word start with a vowel, the sound of the first syllable begins with "y", a non-vowel. On the other hand, if your teacher is going to put this on an exam, I'd use his or her answer. --LarryMac 20:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Fowler's Modern English Usage says a eulogy. It goes by sound, not by spelling. See A, an. --Heron 20:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. If your teacher tells you to say "an eulogy", it's time to get a new teacher. Angr (talk) 20:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• As LarryMac said, you must pay attention to the sound. That is why I say, "I got an F."Patchouli 21:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Similarly, I run into people who write "an history" which confuses the heck out of me, since it is neither written starting with a vowel, nor (in my pronunciation) is the "h" silent. Is the "h" silent in any other variety of English? moink 22:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Historically there were varieties of English which deleted /h/ in initial position in unstressed syllables. (I think I just wrote about this the other day farther up the page.) So "an historian" would have been correct in those varieties. The trouble is, people overgeneralized this rule, so you see "an history", though the first syllable isn't unstressed and nobody elides the /h/. · rodii · 23:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

If I saw "an historian" I'd get it, and drop the "h" if reading aloud, though I think I myself would say "a historian" and say the "h". moink 00:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Just found A, an#Using "an" instead of "a" before a pronounced "H". moink 00:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I listened to an entire audiobook that used "an historian" repeatedly (with h pronounced), and it irked me every time. Just doesn't sound right to my ears. — Laura Scudder ☎ 01:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's scary when you find teachers providing such incorrect information. I'd confront him or her, armed with a printout from one of the hundreds of webpages that agree with the people above, that it is the sound, not the letter which controls a or an usage. See for instance: [7]--Fuhghettaboutit 23:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Teachers have been providing wrong information since the beginning of the profession (I'm a teacher), and when they don't their subject well, they can get defensive and therefore punitive. It's not a good idea to confront them in that case. I just saw an English exam with "very well" as one of the possible scores. I wouldn't advise the student to correct that!

That's why it's best to have a teacher who speaks the language natively. I'm assuming this teacher is a non-native speaker, rather than simply a hypercorrector. I once studied German from an American. She had actually spent much of her childhood in Germany, and seemed very intelligent and fluent, but I discovered later that she had bungled the case system and pronunciation. I've found this to be particularly common among teachers of Spanish. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

US Marine Corps

Is it true that the s in Corps is always silent even when we say,"two US Marine Corps divisions?"Patchouli 20:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you don't pronounce the ps, and when it's plural you don't pronounce the p. — TheKMan^talk 20:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the Wiktionary entry with a list of pronunciation changes. Road Wizard 20:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• So in all instances, Corps is pronounced like core or \'kōr\ in the phonetic alphabet of Merriam-Webster. Right?Patchouli 21:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Not really. According to the Wiktionary entry, the pronuciation is kôr when singular but kôrz when plural. In the plural only the p is silent. Road Wizard 21:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In your particular example, Corps appears to be singular as the word divisions holds the plural. In that example you would pronounce kôr. If on the other hand you said "the US and Canadian Marine Corps landed in Boston" the word Corps would now be plural and pronounced kôrz. (Note: I have no idea if the Canadians have a Marine Corps, I just added it to make the sentence plural). Road Wizard 21:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Just in case you didn't realise, Corps in two US Marine Corps divisions is singular — divisions is plural. — Gareth Hughes 21:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you.Patchouli 22:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Ass Over Teakettle

Hi, I would like to know the meaning of the expression "ass over teakettle" (or "tea kettle").

I was first looking for this other one, "head over feet," from the Alanis Morissette's song, but read it's actually "head over heels." I read a couple of definitions and asked my english professor for a more accurate definition, which I got, but he was not able to tell the meaning of "ass over teakettle," nor did other teachers.

I would appreciate if someone posted information about its origin, context in which to use it and a sentence using the phrase as an example on how to use it. Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.235.201.70 (talk • contribs) .

"Ass over teakettle is one of many variants of an expression meaning 'head over heels; topsy-turvy; in confusion'. The usual British version is ass over tip (or tit), which occurs in James Joyce's Ulysses, among other works. This form also occurs in America. For instance, in The Grapes of Wrath Steinbeck has a character say "You jus' scrabblin' ass over tit, fear somebody gonna pin some blame on you."

The earliest known example of the phrase is in an 1899 book about Virginia folk exressions, which defines "ass over head" as "Head over heels; topsy-turvy."" From [8]--Fuhghettaboutit 22:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I originally heard the expression (from my Oklahoma-born English-derived mother) as "ass over tincups". I assumed (apparently correctly) that the original expression was "ass over tits", i.e. upside down. I've never heard "ass/arse over teakettle", so presumably Americans and Britons chose different euphemisms. I've also heard "ass over tulips", but only in the South. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I recently heard something regarding the origins of this phrase. Whether it's true or not, I've yet to determine. I was at the field artillery museum at Fort Sill, Oklahoma and there was a display of an experimental piece of firepower which mounted a small cannon on the back of a donkey. The plaque stated that whomever decided to try this method of delivery hadn't factored in the animal's reaction to having an explosion occur on its back. The resulting fiasco sent the animal "ass over teakettle", according to the plaque. This is the closest I've found to an origin, as "donkey" and "ass" are relatively interchangeable. Can anyone comment? User:KaHOnas 13 June 2009 0046 (UTC) - all while watching the Stanley Cup Finals

Another similar phrase is "ass backwards," which has nearly the same meaning but is of odder origin - after all, the ass is supposed to be backwards, right? (Read Part 4 of Gravity's Rainbow for an interesting/funny discussion about that.) zafiroblue05 | Talk 21:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This phrase is also heard with a deliberate spoonerism as "bass ackwards". --ByeByeBaby 15:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

June 16

Looking for a word to describe someone who enjoys the thrill of fighting,

someone who thrives on the adrenalin rush, not in a sexual way (so sado-masochist is out as a descriptor), and not in a pathological sense either (so sociopath is not the word I need). Just a word to describe someone who's tough, can fight and can take a punch. Not situational, so boxing terms are out. The kind of persona reserved I guess for people in special ops, Navy SEALS and the like. Many thanks. I've drawn a blank.

Bravado is the first word that came to mind, but that's not quite it either.--Andrew c 02:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Manly? The problem here is that over time the meaning of these words is perverted and they no longer function in the same situations any more. Macho sounds like an insult, though it most certainly describes what you're asking about. Hell, calling someone manly sounds to me like you're implying that the guy's gay.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• adrenalin junkie?(hotclaws**== 10:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

thanks for the suggestions. You see the difficulty. Nothing quite fits. Bravado has the sense of falseness, and macho and manly have become sexually charged, which is not what I had in mind. Machismo is a very good word which comes the closest to describing the characteristics I've listed, but it's hard to come up with a noun for a person who exudes "machismo"

How about pugnatious? Daniel (‽) 18:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Pugnacious is close too, but has a connotation of aggressiveness which is not quite on the mark for what I'm looking for. It's the best I have though, and I thank you

Maybe one of the meanings of hard? Hard, adjective: (of a person) not showing any signs of weakness; tough. [9] It is often used to describe an aggressive male, but I have heard it used to describe someone who is competent at fighting without being overtly aggressive. Road Wizard 18:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Would simply stating that the person is a fighter convey the intended meaning? --vibo56 ^talk 18:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I prefer "hard", which is more neutral. A "fighter" again (to me anyway) sounds more aggressive than I like. Keep It Simple Stupid, right? Thank you all!

Competitive might also fit. People who use any opportunity to be in the thick of the real action. JackofOz 23:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If I were describing, say, a soldier who gets a rush from combat, I would use terms like martial or warlike, which seem stately and dignified. If I were describing a drunk looking for a fight, I would use terms like truculent, bellicose, hot-headed, etc. If I were just describing someone who can proficiently kick ass and take a punch, I would use terms like hardened, rugged, hard-bitten, tough, flinty, lethal, etc. Bhumiya (said/done) 06:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Bhumiya provided all those (and more) that I was going to add. Truculent brings to mind a post-fight upbraiding of Muhammad Ali undertaken by Howard Cosell, in which a flustered Cosell observed that Ali was being extremently truculent, about which appellative Ali rejoined whatever truculent means, if that's good, I'm that. Joe 05:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. How bout a scrapper? --Fuhghettaboutit 06:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Howdy, How would you describe a "belligerent warrior"? /Pendragon

pirate accents..

hi, the pirate question inspired me to ask what i've always wanted to know: if i want my child to speak like a comedy pirate (arrgh matey, shiver me timbers etc), is there a place in the world where this accent still exists or has it died out? it seems like it "started" in cornwall/devon etc but now the accent there is a lot more genteel (alow me luver etc) and, dare i say it, more associated with farmers and country bumpkins than cut throat rulers of the high seas. i suspect i will be dissapointed by the answer (so little Johnny will have to make do with boring RP) so by way of a second question, does any one know how english-speaking pirates speak now a days? are there any? (i guess i'm really asking, if you saw the skull and cross bones on the horizon, where would they be from (most likely)) also, whilst i'm on a roll, do any modern day pirates still use the skull and cross bones (if only for novelty and retro chic) or does it suffer from the same social stigma that the swastika now does. thanks 87.194.20.253 10:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What is traditionally thought of as a pirate accent is based on the Westcountry dialect. The Westcountry has had a strong tradition of seafaring. Modern pirates wear shades and carry automatic weapons — real pirates are scary, and don't care for the romantic stuff — see pirate. — Gareth Hughes 10:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Modern pirates wear white at home and gray on the road, and haven't been scary since the Carter administration. Angr (talk) 12:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The Oakland Raiders still use the skull and crossbones, although there are many football fans who think Raider fans should be stigmatized. User:Zoe|^(talk) 15:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

At times like this, I forget that one country was so bad at football that they had to invent a gameshow where men pad up and run into each other. — Gareth Hughes 17:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

'Twas apathy, not lack of ability. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahem. -- Mwalcoff 23:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Moving swiftly back to the original question (!), I live in the West but most of the words mentioned on the West Country accents page are completely unknown to me, but you certainly do hear the stereotypical "Ooh aah" a lot (meaning "oh yes"). IIRC there was a grammatical difference between "he is/he be" (moods?) in the West Country which didnt exist in other varieties of English where they only used "he is". Jameswilson 23:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

portuguese (br) for to

hi, i'm currently teaching myself portuguese before a trip to brazil. can someone please explain what the various words for "to" are and when you use them? especially when it comes to verbs, i'm just pulling my hair out. why, for example does "acredito na tia feia" (a phrase from my teach yourself book)have na in it?. i get that some verbs in portuguese, when referring to people, use 'to' alot, e,g "i believe to the ugly aunt" but na doesnt mean to- it means in/on (the). can someone please explain this? in other contexts the cd which i'm working from slots in AO and para to similar effect. any ideas? thanks 87.194.20.253 11:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The phrase does mean "I believe in the ugly aunt." I speak EuroPortuguese, so "tia feia" might be some sort of Brazilianism. --Nelson Ricardo 00:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Two questions regarding the question and first reply:

1. Is this the same thing as in Spanish - that a direct object needs an "a" in front of it when the object is a person, such as "Amo a mi madre"?
2. "Tia" in this sentence would probably not be "aunt" literaly, but a colloquial term for lady - right? --vibo56 ^talk 12:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

"Na" in Portuguese is a combined form of em+a, em+o->no.--69.171.123.148 05:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Trainspotting (Irvine Welsh book) - language question

Question posted here from humanities reference desk by EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 14:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC).

I know this seems like a trivial matter, but i was just wondering as to what Scottish people mean by the word 'Draftpak' which crops up frequently in Irvine Welsh's novel Trainspotting. It seems to be a container for carrying beer, but the characters also refer to people they don't like and consider beneath them as 'Draftpaks' so I was hoping someone would clear up the meaning(s) of the word for me. Thank you very much. This unsigned comment was added by 81.111.23.140.

It is a term for a 6 pack of beers that have a 'draftflow' system in them that, when the beer cans are opened, infuse the beer with gas of some kind to make it more like beer poured from draft. In the context of trainspotting, the connotation is of someone pretentious or middle class. No real, working class drug addict would drink such a thing. See Widget (beer). Trepan 16:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think this is a reference to people at the opposite end of the social scale.

Well, ah'm fed up to ma back teeth wi losers, no-hopers, draftpaks, schemies, junkies and the likes.

Cassell's Dictonary of slang says it refers to drunkards and that draftpaks were takeaways from pubs.

Thill be a couple ay draftpaks gittin well filled up oan the train gaun doon, he sais.

Trainspotting was set in the early 80s and the widget, according to our quite good article, did not appear until the late 80s so it was probably not one of them. There must be some authentic Scotch sots here on Wikipedia to ask. And for your delectation another sample of the demotic vernacular. MeltBanana 23:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

These draftpak cunts are at the bar, jostling each other, and every other fucker. Getting served is a nightmare. A mosaic shell ay scar tissue and indian ink, ah presume that there's some cunt inside it, is screaming: - DOUBLE VODDY N COKE! DOUBLE FAAHKIN VODDY N COKE THEN CUNT! at the nervous barstaff

Spanish sentence

what is the Spanish for this sentence:"Why don't you study Spanish instead of asking question endlessly?"

I would translate it as "Por qué no estudias español, en lugar de hacer preguntas sin fin?" User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want to be formal it's "Por qué no estudia usted español, en lugar de hacer preguntas sin fin?" Emmett5 23:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

ISTR that both of these questions should actually begin "¿Por qué ..." Grutness...wha? 07:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right, Grutness. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, formally, it should also be "...de hacer pregunta usted sin fin?". --zenohockey 21:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Commentary?

In this set of lyrics, [10], what does the word "government" mean? Is the song in particular some sort of commentary on large social institutions? --HappyCamper 15:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Woah dude,like rully hard t'say! I listened to the song and read the lyrics several times and have to say like many "pop" songs,they don't really appear to mean anything coherant. As far as I can tell,the singer is in some way a free spirit who requires that people don't stop him doing his thing, though the beauty and beast and powdering references seem to imply some sort of transvestite thing going on. The "government" or the "man" in the sixties was authority of any sort. Thus, I think the singer was expressing that he was a free spirit who requested that those near to him let him do what he wanted to do and to his disappointment his girl couldn't deal with this and left him for a more convential type of person. Also,"energy" and perhaps "powdering" had drug implications and was a veiled (well not very!) reference to speed or extascy so going off with the "government " man showed how very unsuited the couple were for each other.

Hazel Dean rules!---hotclaws**==(81.136.157.206 06:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC))

What do you call literary device used to emphasise a point?

E.g. someone posts in a group complaining that the group is full of meaningless short posts. Then a reply:

"Exactly. (This is a meaningless short post.)"

Or a post: "Don't use smilies! :P"

The bold words are used to emphasise the point.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 16:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Irony? · rodii · 17:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The examples you quoted are examples of hypocrisy, but that's not a "literary device used to emphasise a point." but it's an accurate description of your examples. --ColourBurst 06:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Irony is the first word that comes to my mind as well. i don't think something like this would have a more specific technical name, since it doesn't really emphasise the point as much as it is just a little joke, in my view. --Alex.dsch 18:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be a form of irony, I agree. However, this device does differ from irony in some ways. For example, the person using the device is fully aware of what he is doing. He deliberately adds the words to emphasize his point. Regular irony, on the other hand, usually involves the ignorance of the person making the ironic statement.

Here's a better example of this device. In my Google group, two people - X and Y - are engaged in a heated political debate. X accuses Y of being a troll. I then remind X that most trolling is actually calling each other trolls. X responds that he is sure that Y is a troll. Then I accuse X of being a troll to emphasise my point.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 12:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I am a jelly donut

When President Kennedy in 1963 said in Berlin "Ich bin ein Berliner", was he speaking German incorrectly, and really saying "I am a jelly donut"? A Berliner is just such a German pastry. Wouldn't it have been correct to say "Ich bin Berliner", for German does not use the article "a" for nationalities or professions? 66.213.33.2 17:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• That's an old and slightly funny urban legend; I took advantage of it when I was 11 years old in Berlin in 1965, putting a flag on a jelly donut at a party, and the grownups tittered a bit, but not much. It's not the case, though. The ein makes it metaphorical rather than literal. At least according to [11]. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• See Ich bin ein Berliner. It seems like there's always a Wikipedia article on these things.  :) User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

A related question: if I want to say "I am English" in German, is it correct to say "ich bin Englisch", or should I say "ich bin ein Engländer"? --Richardrj 19:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Most likely you would say "Ich bin Engländer". Angr (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Had Kennedy found himself not in Berlin, but rather in one of a couple of other German cities, I suppose the same ridiculous urban legend would develop. Think about it. Ich bin ein Hamburger, or Ich bin ein Frankfurter. Would that mean that JFK was calling himself a burger or a hot dog? People just seem to love making fun of politicians whenever they make the slightest of linguistic mistakes, and even when they don't, people still manage to make one up.(Btw, YES! I'm aware JFK was a Democrat! Loomis is actually sticking up for a Democrat! Enjoy it while it lasts!) Loomis51 22:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

There are indeed people who use any opportunity to criticise politicians for the slightest transgression. Then there are people answering ref desk questions who use any mention of a politician's name as an opportunity to sneak in a reference to their own political allegiances, no matter how irrelevant that may be to the question. Maybe we should shoot both of them. (lol) JackofOz 23:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Jack, my parenthetic remarks were an afterthought. Everyone knows I'm just another right-wing Republican freak. My true intention was to just make reference to the inexplicable silliness of a US president referring to himself as a hamburger or a hot-dog. Sometimes a sausage is just a sausage, Jack. ;) Loomis51 02:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of sneaking in references to one's own political allegiances .... are you aware you've just done it again? This is what I'm talking about, mate. Don't worry, you've got me to keep you honest.  :--) JackofOz 08:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, once again you've left me clueless, Jack. No I'm not aware of any reference to any political allegiance I've just made. Maybe you can help me out. Was it the sausage thing? You truly are the most cryptic person I know. Loomis 21:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

How about "Everyone knows I'm just another right-wing Republican freak"? Hmm? JackofOz 22:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

What JFK said means "I am a citizen of Berlin."

Are dance styles proper nouns?

This is currently being discussed at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dance, initialized by a discussion at Talk:Lindy_hop whether or not "lindy hop" should be capitalized.

My question is: Are dance styles proper nouns and should be capitalized as such? If not, what rules for exceptions are there (e.g. a dance style named after a person or place)? Wintran 21:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Only when they are derived from another proper noun. That's the conventional rule in English. If there was a guy named Lindsey or a place called "Lindsey" that was involved with the hop, then it must be capitalized. Otherwise, no. --Diderot 21:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick answer, that sounds logical to me. In your example, if it was derived from a guy named Lindsey, would that mean that "Lindy hop" would be correct, but not "Lindy Hop"? Wintran 21:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It is derived from a guy! But not Lindsey, rather, Charles Lindbergh. moink 02:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe not. Lindy_hop_history#Origin_of_the_name. Apparently even I can fall for folk etymology (though in my defense, this one is disputed and pretty widespread). moink 02:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

By the definition of a proper noun, the name of a dance style should be capitalized, whether or not that name is derived from another proper noun (i.e. "the Tango" vs "a tango"). I've been searching through literature on dance, and the great majority of what I have found indicates that this is the common usage. In the case of "Lindy Hop", both words are almost always capitalized. --Michael Richters 14:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is what I've started to doubt and hoping I'd get an answer on. According to Noun#Proper_nouns_and_common_nouns, proper nouns name unique entities. Are dance styles really unique entities by this definition? I find them too abstract to be called that, just like most sports and other physical acitivities. Could someone who studies linguistics comment on this? Wintran 01:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Different groups of people (or fields of study) have different conventions for the treatment of abstract entities as proper nouns. There is an extensive discussion of this at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization), on the subject of network protocols. A particularly relavant piece of the discussion can be found in the section "On the definition of a proper noun". If you reject the argument that each field or group should have its own conventions for abstract-entity proper nouns, then perhaps we should look for examples in fields that are more well-established, and have a larger body of written work. The first place I looked was in the article on "Baroque", the name of a style applied to different art forms. I am not an expert on the subject, and this is only one point of data, but the author(s) of that article seem to believe that "Baroque" used as the name of an artistic style is a proper noun, but when used in other ways (as a synonym for "elaborate"), it is not. --Michael Richters 14:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Please continue in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dance#Capitalization. `'mikka (t) 07:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

June 17

IPA

What do the dots & lines in the IPA Vowel table mean?

Thanks; [email removed]

24.70.95.203 07:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you be a little more specific as to which dots and lines you're talking about? Angr (talk) 09:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Assuming that we're talking about #Vowels|this, they show the relative positions of the vowels in the mouth: front to back and open to closed. Henry^Flower 09:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes that's what I was talking bout. But what bout the unconnected vowels?

[email removed]

Thanks

24.70.95.203 22:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by unconnected? Sorry, I don't understand. I know IPA pretty well and I've never heard of unconnected vowels. Also, please don't list your email. It's for your own protection. Wikipedia pages are listed on many websites, and your email may recieve spam en masse if you list it here.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 23:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you perhaps talking about ɪ, ʏ, and ʊ, which don't fall onto any of the lines in the vowel chart? That just means they don't correspond exactly in height to any of the cardinal vowels. Angr (talk) 23:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Disappearing languages

I frequently read despairing commentaries on the rate at which languages are becoming extinct. What I never read is any reason why this is a bad thing, beyond the rather wooly idea that diversity is lovely. Are there any such reasons?

People often see events caused by injustice as bad things. So when language death follows from something commonly seen as a human rights violation, e.g. genocide, it is often seen as a bad thing. (Not all language death, in my opinion, is caused by human rights violations though.) --Cam 14:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Languages aren't just collections of words arranged by arbitrary grammatical rules; they are indelibly linked with thought processes and ways of seeing the world. You may have heard of how the Inuit having twenty-odd words for snow, each one referring to different types of snow (hard, soft, crunchy, mushy, etc). I believe it's an urban legend, but it still illustrates my point.

Languages are tied with history and societies. By comparing words across languages, scientists can theorize how different populations travelled, made contact with other people, or even subjugated them. One example of this is how the English language, following the Norman conquest of England, picked up many words from French, and the vocabulary used by the ruling invaders became favored in polite society (e.g. "urinate", "excrement", "perspiration"), while the original English/Anglo-Saxon words grew to be seen as crude in comparison (e.g. "piss", "shit", "sweat").

The loss of a language means that we lose the opportunity to see the world, however imperfectly, through that culture's eyes. We also lose the chance to see how that culture may have interacted with other societies. In short, we lose a bit of the world's collective history.--Tachikoma 14:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The loss of a language reduces our understanding of the human language faculty. Linguistics aims to understand what is and is not possible for human languages, and every dead language represents a lost opportunity to learn more. The extinction of a language is just as tragic as the extinction of a species. Angr (talk) 15:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

See also the philosophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein. Yes don't blame me that it is hard work, his basic idea is that our knowledge of the world is closely tied to our use of language. One famous quote is: "The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." MeltBanana 15:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The group whose language becomes extinct will lose the awareness of its history and culture, its "cultural identity". Imagine English became extinct and was replaced by Chinese during the next 50 years (I assume you are a native English speaker): all English books, movies, songs, documents would suddenly stop being understandable to the average person. No more Shakespeare, no more Declaration of Independence, no more Mark Twain, no more Beatles, no more The Simpsons. None of your grandchildren would be able to read anything you wrote, or watch any of the movies you watched. Chl 16:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually they'd all be translated, plus we'd get the benefit of access to the Tang poets.  :) Most of these arguments look very Sapir-Whorfian, which comes under my idea of wooly; Angr's point is more substantial, but I don't see any difference between loss of information about a language and loss of information on collar styles in the 1760s; in any case, I doubt many of the people who worry about this would be satisfied with documenting the languages before they die. Henry^Flower 21:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I also think the Sapir-Whorf stuff is "wooly" as Henry Flower says, but what would be lost forever are all the puns, wordplay, nursery rhymes, and poetics that resist translation. So a piece of the culture is lost. In addition, there is often a generational rupture with grandchildren unable to talk to parents.. Finally, societies often feel their identity is in some sense diminished. It could be argued that the near loss of Irish has had little effect on Irishness as an identity, but a lot of people there think it's important enough to keep as a testimonial symbol and constantly try to revive (in particularly poor ways for the most part). Of course, as societies get larger, languages are going to be lost, but to the extent that even small ones can be kept vibrant, their continued exists adds to cultural richness at no particular cost. BTW, the Eskimo snow words is a bit of an urban legend. [[12]] mnewmanqc

Languages are considerably more complex than collar styles in the 1760s. It is probably impossible to completely document every linguistic fact about any language. Take Sanskrit, for example: even though its grammar was written down in excruciatingly comprehensive detail by Pāṇini, there are still aspects about it that will never be known because there are no native speakers. Angr (talk) 21:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The death of a language cuts people off from continuity with the past. It kills the institutions that are theirs, and over which they have some power, to replace them with institutions in which they are newcomers and over which they may have little or no power. Rebuilding adequate institutions is difficult and poses burdens on those who are culturally displaced.

As examples, the loss of the Irish language cut off Irish people from their history and their own institutions. It took until the 20th century to partially construct new ones. The loss of Native American languages in the US made the maintenance of useful native institutions impossible, and new institutions haven't even begun to fill the gap. In Peru, Bolivia and Paraguay, in contrast, despite being ruled by a Hispanophone quasi-aristocracy for centuries, native languages persisted, and with them native cultures were able to keep their institutions evolving with their conditions. Indians in Bolivia are piss-poor, but they do have intact communities and now they even have an elected President.

Wherever we see language loss, we see mass disempowerment not only because of the forces that killed the language but because cutting people off from their language cuts them off from a past and culture that are really theirs. Where language is retained, ordinary political processes - things like ethno-linguistic nationalism and democratic social mobilization - have been relatively effective in reversing disempowerment.

--Diderot 22:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Sapir-Worf? What does this have to do with Star Trek:The Next Generation?

Seriously, my own reaction upon reading Angr's response was that my viewpoint was an essentially romantic (or wooly, if you prefer) one, while Angr's was an essentially analytical perspective. Most interesting. Thanks to everyone for a fascinating discussion. --Tachikoma 01:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, you can't just translate Shakespeare, and get the full effect. I've read Marcus Anthony's speech in Julius Caesar in German, and it slaughtered the effect, drained the imagery, the impact. I'm sure there's been better translations, but no translation can carry exactly what the original did. [13] shows you how the two Chinese, the Japanese and Vietnamese translations handled Harry Potter; in a summary, at the worst points it fell back to English or lost the heart of the matter, and frequently the best translations turned something uniquely English into something uniquely Japanese or Chinese, which is no longer the original. From the other direction, Azumanga Diaoh rambles on about Blue Three the martial artist for a while; at best the English viewer can catch it intellectually (Bruce Lee = Blue Three with a heavy Japanese accent), but never viscerally. It would be hard with animation, but any translation that kept the visceral effect would no longer be the original. --Prosfilaes 18:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

If it is verifiable that some people other than us have made these arguments, it belongs as a new section in language death. moink 01:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Just imagine there are no flowers other than a pink coloured roses in this world. Would it be a rich place? Language is like a complex lifeform or a thiving eco system. To destroy a language, is like destroying an eco system with mutiple lifeforms.--Aadal 15:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC)Aadal

Transparent

It seems that this word describing the desired state of negotiations, contracts and explanations has arisen only in the last ten years. And it really bugs me. So many other adjectives should be used, such as clear, concise, readily understandable, simply put, etc. Am I mistaken as to its recent usage, or would Jefferson and Lincoln have used this word? 66.213.33.2 14:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

It might bug you, but when Shakespeare writes:

Transparent Helena! Nature shows art,

That through thy bosom makes me see thy heart.

I don't think he means that Helena was an early Polythene Pam. But it used to mean something frank and open rather than simply put. MeltBanana 15:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a wider issue here that your example ilustrates, 66. One could write a very long list of commonplace words that are silly, unnecessary, misused or overused (and in some cases, all four). The latest one is "garner". Nobody in the entertainment world ever receives or collects or gains awards anymore, they "garner" them. I would go on at great length, but I don't want to garner criticism for a soap-box post. You have garnered my deepest sympathies. JackofOz 16:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand transparency as being about how easy it is for an outsider to see the inner workings of the process and in particular the motives of the actors involved. Ideally, transparent negotiations leave no doubt that the negotiators are conspiring together to the disadvantage of each other, or of third parties--if there are such harmful intentions, they are clearly stated. In this sense, I would see 'frank' and 'open' as better alternatives than 'clear' or 'concise'. Even a complicated contract can be transparent, if it is accompanied by a record of the discussions that lead to it, and they make it clear that the complications are all necessary in order to reach the stated goals of the negotiators. 84.239.128.9 09:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Words that contain certain letter combinations

Do you know HOW or where I can find or compile, for instance, a list of all the words in the English language that contain various spellings such as -- "ie", "ou", "ow" and "ue"?

I am trying to write a paper that lists all the words in the English language and the various pronunciations for each of certain common combinations. I have listed, off the top-of-my-head, about 34 letter combinations and 3,400 words that fit -- but I am sure there is a more elegant way to find the words.

Martirc 16:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure I understood your question, but assuming you meant "how does one list all words in the English language that contain a particular letter-combination?":

The only way I can think of would require programming: Get hold of a list of English words, as big as possible, alternatively download large text documents (for instance from Project Gutenberg), and write a program which goes through the text, and for each word determines if it satisfies your criteria, and keep it if it does, and has not already been put into your list. A data structure such as a set or a map would be suitable for the task. A C++ program doing this would require about 50-100 lines of code. --vibo56 ^talk 17:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

As the above person said, the easiest way is to get hold of a list of words, and search it for "ie", "ou", etc. For example, if you're using Linux or some Unix-like OS, it's very easy:

grep ie /usr/share/dict/words
grep ou /usr/share/dict/words
grep ow /usr/share/dict/words
grep ue /usr/share/dict/words

Be warned, though -- the above give 4620, 3483, 1516, and 1061 results respectively. --Shreevatsa 17:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

If you first pipe your text file through sort and uniq, it will be a lot simpler. This page (the reference desk language section, when I saved it as a text file a few minutes ago) had 83 words with the letter combination "ie" in lowercase. If you have a text file with each word on a separate line, you can simply type:

cat sample.txt | sort | uniq | grep ie

To convert a text file such as this page into a file with each word on a separate line, you can type something like:

sed 's/[ -9:;<=>?]/\n/g' textfile.txt > sample.txt

I'm not sure how well this approach scales for really big files, however. --vibo56 ^talk 19:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

If I understand your question correctly, most word processors and dictionaries will answer queries such as this. For example, you would typically input *ie* in the find field of the dictionary (or the dictionary module of the word processor) to find all words containing the letters "ie" together, or *i*e* to find all words where i and e appear in that order and might or might not be separated by other letters. You may have to specify that you're searching for all the whole words in the dictionary. (The OED seems to contain about 600 of the former. In this case plurals and other derivatives of each word are excluded. A word processor would include these but not have as large a vocabulary.) --Shantavira 18:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

June 18

“Proper Adjectives”?

I don’t know why, but odd questions sometimes pop into my head.

Is there a term for adjectives derived from proper nouns? (Such as Napoleonic, Ruthian, or Capraesque.) I think they should be called proper adjectives — Michael J 00:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's what they're called. We don't have an article on them, but a quick Google for the phrase gives 491,000 hits. —Zero Gravitas 00:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That is a very surprising omission. There must be a long list we can all put our minds to.

just thinking aloud: I'd guess that most of them end in -an or -ian (Dickensian, Shavian, Herculean, Beethovenian), but there are enough of the -esque and -ic (and probably other) varieties to make me wonder what the rule is for creating them. Is it the coiner's privilege, or is the form determined by the ending of the original word, or is there something else? JackofOz 01:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it has a lot to do with the sound of the original word, but obviously it isn't consistent. Usually you can just add "-ian":

Clinton, Boston, Jefferson --> Clintonian, Bostonian, Jeffersonian; but Byron, Napoleon --> Byronic, Napoleonic

Borges, Marquez --> Borgesian, Marquezian

Shakespeare, Caesar, Kramer --> Shakespearean, Caesarean, Kramerian

Wesley, Tolstoy, LaVey, Garvey --> Wesleyan, Tolstoyan, LaVeyan, Garveyan

Erasmus, Plautus --> Erasmian, Plautian; but Pyrrhus --> Pyrrhic

Freud, Hegel --> Freudian, Hegelian

Recently, politicians have often had "-ite" placed after their names:

Reagan, Thatcher, Blair, Bush --> Reaganite, Thatcherite, Blairite, Bushite

Some names have multiple adjectives, obviously coined spontaneously and probably recently, possibly over the Internet:

Tarantino --> Tarantinian, Tarantinic

Simpson --> Simpsonian, Simpsonesque

Bhumiya (said/done) 05:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a great start to the article, Bhumiya. Hint: "If you build it, they will come". Byronic is an interesting one: Who got to decide it was Byronic and not Byronian or Byronesque? There are also the ones where the form of the word changes (Moscow > Muscovite; Manchester > Mancunian; Oxford > Oxonian). JackofOz 06:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately the Wiki got there first, which is quite likely given its etymology. MeltBanana 20:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The moral: Don't recreate the wheel; chances are the Wiki has already done it. JackofOz 21:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Brechtian, Joycean, Kafkaesque, Marivaudian, Orwellian, Machiavellian and Pinteresque. -lethe ^{talk +} 20:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I created a new article Proper adjective with a broader scope than List of eponymous adjectives in English. Words like Kafkaesque, Shakespearean, and Napoleonic are eponymous adjectives, which is just one type of proper adjective. Eponymous means "derived from the name of a person." Words like Icelandic, Californian, and Jewish are proper adjectives but not eponymous adjectives. --Mathew5000 19:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, it is not true that an eponymous adjective is a type of proper adjective, as I said. Some adjectives like chauvinistic and narcissistic are eponymous adjectives (because they are derived from a person's name) but not proper adjectives (since they do not take a capital letter).--Mathew5000 03:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

How come most eponymous adjectives take a capital letter, but some others don't (quixotic, chauvinistic, etc)? Are the latter the eponymistic equivalents of second-class citizens, or is there a less sinister explanation? JackofOz 03:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say quixotic and chavinistic are ordinary adjectives; you can define them without mentioning Don Quixote and Nicolas Chauvin. You can speak of a Napoleonic stature, the Napoleonic era, a Napoleonic attitude, with the only connector being Napoleon himself.--Prosfilaes 04:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The words quixotic and chauvinistic are eponymous adjectives because they are derived from a person's name. They are common adjectives (i.e. not capitalized) because over time the derivation has become remote. To put it another way, they "developed a life of their own" to the point where they are no longer proper adjectives. They will always be eponymous adjectives, however, because of their etymology. --Mathew5000 08:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Use of latin phrases in other languages

I am interested in the differences in how latin phrases are used in English, compared to other languages. Do English speakers use more or less Latin phrases (ad hoc, in vitro, de jure) than, say, French or Dutch speakers? Do other languages use the same latin phrases, or have they adopted different ones? Is there a Wikepedia article that addresses any of this? ike9898 03:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Latin phrases covers Latin used in English. Don't know about other languages. Rmhermen 18:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Language convergence

It seems that many languages arose when two groups of people weren't in very close contact with each other for long enough that their languages developed in different directions. Is there any evidence that, in the modern world, some languages are actually becoming more similar, maybe due to modern communication, transportation and trade? I'm wondering if modern Portuguese and Spanish are a little more mutually intelligible than their counterparts from 1700. ike9898 03:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Check out Language convergence, which is just a short stub, but contains some useful links. See also language merger. Bhumiya (said/done) 05:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It didn't link to Sprachbund! (fixed) AnonMoos 06:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

If anything, they are probably less mutually intelligible. I mean, just look at Brazilian Portuguese vs. European. --Nelson Ricardo 09:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a well-known phenomenon that Portuguese-speakers often find it easier to understand Spanish-speakers than the reverse... AnonMoos 15:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

IPA for "Pardon"

Hi, how is "pardon" pronounced in French? I'd like to see an IPA transcription. The #Examples_of_French section doesn't say. Thank you, in advance. :) --Kjoonlee 03:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Basically like [paRdõ] (where "R" means uvular [r]). Insofar as stress is relevant for French pronunciation, it would be on the second syllable. AnonMoos 07:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. :) I ended up adding /paʁdɔ̃/. --Kjoonlee 07:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Past tense? Perfect tense?

I'm slightly unsure as to where the perfect tense is or isn't appropriate, as opposed to the past tense. Obviously, biographical articles on those who are dead should be written in the past tense, and articles about places should be written in the perfect tense, but what tense should be used when writing articles about fictional media? Or is it entirely optional? --FrostyBytes 18:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The relevant articles are past tense and perfect aspect. What is often called perfect tense is the application of the perfect aspect in the present tense — it implies something that is complete

• Brown is famous — present
• Brown was famous — past
• Brown has been famous — present perfect (perfect)
• Brown had been famous — past perfect (pluperfect)

Therefore the present perfect is appropriate if the effect still exists. You might need to give an example or two if you need more help. — Gareth Hughes 18:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

If I can use the story-line of a game as a rather complex example, the article would generally follow the same tense as was presented in the game. Information detailed in the pre-story/historical background (usually immediately preceding the events of the story) are usually presented in the perfect present (The Empire has established a strong hold on the universe...), story-line details are explained in present tense as they do when developing in the game (...and Luke suddenly finds himself underwater, pulled down by some sort of serpent), and in certain cases the future tense can be used to explain possible outcomes (...but if you press the big red button, you will not be able to advance to the Hoth stage).

Past perfect is most useful for explaing background history that may not immediately precede the events of the ongoing story, especially if the history contains many sequential details (...and though the Jedi had become the most fearsome fighting force in the galaxy, the Empire was quick to crush them...).

There are some works of fiction that choose to be different and use non-conventional tenses to make the story more interesting, so there will be many exceptions. Look at other similar articles and see how they've been written if you're not sure.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  23:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

June 19

latin is not a dead language!

please please please help me! i have been searching in vein for a english to latin translation of a saying that is of massive importance to me. The saying is "always outnumbered, never outgunned." any answers that i recieve will be appericiated beyond words. thank you

• sorry I can't help but want to know the source of the original quote as I wish to use it myself!hotclaws**==(81.136.157.206 07:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC))

Serching in vein could lead to blood loss, and all your searching would be in vain (see homophone). Therefore, in order to receive hyperlexical adoration, I would suggest Semper numero, nunquam armis superatus. — Gareth Hughes 13:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Excellent translation! —Keenan Pepper 18:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The superatus form is masculine singular. For a female, use superata, and for a group of people, use superati. —Keenan Pepper 00:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Finnish to English translation

Roman Schatz is quoted as saying that many middle European cultures need 18 separate lines of dialogue to convey the same information as the following Finnish dialogue:

- Mitä jätkä?

- Paskaaks tässä.

It more or less means "What's up?" "Nothing much." but I have tried, in vain, to express it in English preserving all the inflections. Can any other native Finnish speaker give an attempt at a more faithful translation? JIP | Talk 11:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, 18 separate lines? Can you give us a few examples of other meanings which are conveyed besides "what's up? nothing much"? -lethe ^{talk +} 20:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You have to ask Roman Schatz about the 18 lines thing. The overall information is "What's up?" "Nothing much." but I'm trying to find a way to say it the same way it is said in Finnish, without sounding awkward.

Jätkä is Finnish for dude or bloke, and "mitä jätkä?" means something like "what does the dude know?" or "what's up with the bloke?".

"Paskaaks tässä" is harder to translate. It's a variant of "mitäs tässä", meaning something like "well, what would be going on at this time?", with an implication of downplaying the presence or importance of any news. "Paska" in this case is an adjective and means "shitty", so it's probably something like "there isn't [anything worth] shit going on at this time." So how could I express this in a way that sounds like natural English? JIP | Talk 18:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

How about:

- What's up?

- Jack shit.

Second person references in videogame articles

The use of the personal pronoun (you) is common in WP's videogame articles. I don't personally like the use of the personal pronoun in WP articles, regardless of whether or not the reader may become an active participant in the activity described, and would prefer using third person pronouns (e.g., 'the player', or 'player character', depending on circumstance)

But my question is, are there any generally accepted guidelines regarding the use of the second person in WP? --FrostyBytes 12:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. I'd say this is a question for the village pump, not the reference desk. User:Angr 12:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia-centred answer should go to village pump and/or an appropriate WikiProject. The use of you to refer to a 'generic other' is quite common in coloquial English, especially when spoken. It is usually considered inappropriate for formal writing (as WP:MOS says not to use contractions like it's, I would say that WP is formal writing). Instead, the generic other should be referenced in the third person. However, English lacks appropriate pronouns in the third person for a generic other: the pronoun one often feels a little too stilted in English (compare French on and German man). Therefore, I would agree that circumlocution like the player, and so forth, is the best option (or your best option). — Gareth Hughes 13:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The Manual of Style says that use of the second person is discouraged. When I come across it, I'll fix it if I have time, but if it's pervasive throughout an article and I don't have time to fix it all, I'll slap an {{inappropriate person}} tag on it. Chuck 23:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

@

this sign in english

Not sure what your question is, but you might find answers at the article At sign. User:Angr 13:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

if you just mean 'what is the English word for this sign?' then it is 'at'. and yeah, read the article posted above. --Alex.dsch 13:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I've also heard it called a "commercial A" Emmett5 17:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As in 40 widgets @ $2.00 total $80.00. --Halcatalyst 19:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

True, though it is also pronounced "at" in that context. Grutness...wha? 02:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The folks at the Oxford Dictionaries have a short article on this [14]. --George 04:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

German to English lauguage

Going to Austria would like to translate their language to English

Erm, could you please be a little more specific? I've re-read your question six times and I still have absolutely no idea what you mean. People in Austria speak German (well, Austrian, which is German with an accent). In the big cities you should be able to find people who speak English well enough to help you if you don't speak any German. I suggest you buy a phrasebook before going - it should help you with the most common phrases you'll need to use. If you're looking for real-time translation while speaking to an Austrian, I'm afraid we haven't invented that yet - come back in fifty years or so. — QuantumEleven 14:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course we've invented that, it's just very expensive. User:Angr 15:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of a machine you carry around with you, rather than a person you carry around with you... ;-) But, of course, Angr is right - you could always hire a translator. — QuantumEleven 09:45, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

An Esperanto translation

Could someone get me an Esperanto translation of the following (taken from various pieces of A Softer World, some modified):

1. You still surprise me / Waking me up to watch our guests / I want to put their hands in warm water / You want me to put their hands into you. / (they don't know what they're missing).
2. When the government outlaws sex, I will kill the president / I will burn the flag / I will touch you where you need
3. The ice-caps are melting / But I am prepared / with my waterproof valentines / with my scuba gear for kittens.
4. My new year's resolution is to only date women who speak Esperanto / that's just who I am now.

Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.7.176.132 (talk • contribs) .

For a very basic translation, you could try Free Translation.com.

It's by no means that accurate, but if you know how to decline verbs etc it can help. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 17:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me try:

1. Vi tamen(? Not sure) surprizas min / vekanta min por gvati nia gastojn / Vi volas mati ilian manojn en varma akvo / Mi volas ke mi matas ilian manojn en vin / ....

That's all I've got so far for the first line, I don't know how to write "what they're missing" in esperanto.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 18:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll give it a go.

1. ... / (ili ne scias tion ili estas maltrafantaj) [@ The ikiroid: trafi is "to catch", therefore maltrafi is roughly "to miss". Then maltrafanta is "missing" or "in a constant state of 'miss'". However, that is the literal translation, which might not be what this guy is looking for. This kind of means "they don't know what they are not catching" or "not hitting".]
2. kiam la registaro [outlaws (not sure)] seksumon, mi mortigos la prezidanton / Mi ekbrulos la flagon / Mi ektusxos vin kie vi bezonas
3. La [ice-caps (not sure)] estas degelantaj / Escepte mi estas prepara / ...

And I'm spent. That might not all be terribly correct, but it's probably pretty close. By the way, EvocativeIntrigue, Free Translation.com doesn't have support for Esperanto translation. That would defeat the purpose of learning Esperanto anyway. -- Torvik 17:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

neglection

In scoring SAT essays I find a number of students using the word neglection in place of neglect. One dictionary quoted a Shakespearean usage and called the word obsolete. Does anybody know if the word is commonly used in a particular part of the USA? ----Halcatalyst 15:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Google doesn't seem to think it's a real word, so it can't be!

However, slightly more reliably, Dictionary.com does have an entry for "neglection", even though I'm convinved it's not a word. Not sure which part of the USA it came from, though.

EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 17:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The OED confirms it was used briefly around the turn of the 17th century, with two quotes from Shakespeare and one from Feltham, dating between 1591 and 1628. And neglectio was a real Latin word. However, what these SAT kids are doing is probably not remembering their Shakespeare and Latin, but rather coining a word by analogy, along the lines "reject : rejection :: neglect : X", X = neglection. It's possible that it's more common in some regions than others, but I kind of doubt it. User:Angr 18:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are misinterpreting "neglection" as meaning neglect. Rather, I think you should read "neglecting" for this word. Thus, a Google search for "my neglecting" returns 434 hits, such as "it's all to do with my neglecting of religious duty". A google search for "my neglection" returns 63 hits, such as "because due to my neglection of the blog the comments more than doubled because of spam" (third hit). Actually an interesting parallel is that the second hit from the former query (with "neglecting") is "...is my neglecting of this blog since Monday, gasp, Monday". Very interesting parallel. Anyway 434 to 63 implies that hardly anyone who phrases a sentence calling for "neglecting" thinks to replace it with "neglection" instead. If you're interested enough, I would suggest you read through those 63 pages to see if any educated speakers prefer this term. Then just for kicks you can try the same game with a word we replace an "-ing" form with. For example "my hestitating" would in most speakers minds be struck and replaced "my hesitation" in nearly all contenxts. Indeed, it wins in this case by a margin of 122,000 to 547. Hope this helps. 82.131.190.200 18:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Several dictionaries define the word as "The state of being negligent; negligence." This is probably what the SAT essayists meant, since they were referring to the environment. Funny, I don't have a definite recall that anyone actually used the word "negligence."

The Google references seem to be mostly young people on blogs or other very informal environments. Sometimes they seem to mean "failure," "ignorance," "overlooking, "inattention," or "indifference" as well as "neglect," "neglecting," and "negligence."

So maybe we're seeing the early stages of resuscitation of the word. --Halcatalyst 20:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

English

I heard somewhere that German and Dutch are the easiest languages for an English-speaking person to learn. Is this true?

It obviously depends on the person, and at what age they start learning. However, I would assume something using the Latin alphabet would be easier for an English-speaker to grasp, which could make French or Italian easier. Greek wasn't too difficult for me, but the alphabet could be tricky, and I'm guessing Chinese, Japanese and Russian are much harder!

EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 23:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, because of the way my mind works, I found trying to learn the Latin derived languages to be very difficult. Due to all of the similarities between the languages, my mind kept jumbling up the similar information making it all an untranslatable hodge podge. On the other hand, due to its distinctive structures, I find learning Japanese to be comparatively easy. So in answer to your question, if your mind likes working with similarities, a European language should be easier to learn. If your mind likes to work with differences something from one of the other continents will be easier. Road Wizard 23:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why people get scared of non-latin alphabets. I can understand this with regard to Chinese, which is not really an alphabet at all, but not for roughly-one-letter-per-sound languages. Is it so hard to learn a few dozen symbols compared to thousands of words you must learn anyway? --Ornil 01:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Many people assume Russian is a degree of magnitude harder than other foreign languages because it uses a non-Latin alphabet. The cyrillic alphabet is really not a problem. Fluency with it comes very quickly if you're a serious student and once it's in there it's fine. I can't see why the same wouldn't be true about Greek. I'd be much more scared of Finnish, with its abundance of cases and its bizarre proportion of "umlauted" vowels that make it look so ... well, weird. JackofOz 02:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Russian is hard; Defense Language Institute classified it one step below Arabic and friends. That corresponds to everything else I've heard. I suspect Finnish is pretty evil, too, but you don't get many comparisons since it's not one of the major languages.--Prosfilaes 05:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

English is considered a Germanic language because it, like German, is descended from Proto-Germanic. But that doesn't mean it's easier to learn than a Romance language like Spanish. Some German words are similar to English ones, but German has a somewhat complicated grammar system. German has four cases of nouns, meaning the ending of a noun will be different depending on the role it plays in a sentence. German also has three genders compared to two in Spanish. -- Mwalcoff 00:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're going to try for an easy second language, I've heard that Esperanto, being a construct language designed for simplicity, is pretty easy. But you really should opt for a second language that makes sense for your local area or travel plans. I've tried my hand at both German and Spanish (although I had to stop German and have forgotten most of it} and found them roughly equal in difficulty. Emmett5 01:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Spanish is not that difficult, in terms of rules. Spanish has so many more rules than English does, and there are less exceptions. —Mets501 (talk) 01:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Interlingua is even much easier and very similar to Spanish and Italian. You can be understood in those languages. --Jondel 02:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yay Interlingua! Sooo much better than Esperanto. —Keenan Pepper 04:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm baffled by the statement "I would assume something using the Latin alphabet would be easier for an English-speaker to grasp, which could make French or Italian easier" above. German and Dutch use the Latin alphabet too! As for Esperanto and Interlingua, they may well be easy to learn, but since they aren't languages, they're not really relevant to this discussion. User:Angr 06:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Since they are languages, they are relevant. Henry^Flower 06:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, right. They're languages the way Data is a human being. User:Angr 07:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Bad analogy. Haven't there been children who have grown up speaking Esperanto? --Kjoonlee 07:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Data isn't a biological being, and will fail all trivial tests for such. Whereas if Esperanto is not a language, it's mightly similar; children learn it as if it were a language, it's used for communication as if it were a language, it's made of the same basic parts as any other language.--Prosfilaes 05:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The US Army's Defense Language Institute in Monterey groups the Romance languages (and Dutch, I think) as the simplest languages for its soldiers to learn. German is a step above them. Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Arabic are the hardest. Personally, I think Afrikaans would be easiest for an English speaker to learn. It's a very simplified version of Dutch. --Chris S. 06:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Right. I think the original poster would be interested in this edit. If you're looking for similar languages, I doubt anything can beat the Frisian language. --Kjoonlee 07:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

How about Scots language? ;-) --Chris S. 14:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

kjoonlee draws the "Dialect" card from his deck. --Kjoonlee 15:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Scots has a separate history, a unique orthographic tradition, and its own literature. It may be that Scots and English are both dialects of Anglo-Saxon, but Scots is certainly not a dialect of English. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly not Anglo-Saxon, which isn't intelligible at all to a modern English speaker, but both Scots and British English are descended from Middle English and could barely be considered dialects of it.--Prosfilaes 05:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To be truthful, I've never read the Scots language closely, and The Story of English had convinced me earlier that Scots was a dialect. I've reread it last night, and it still looks convincing, regardless of orthography or literature. The Story of English seems to point to an English origin for Scots as well. (OT: In the Scots Bible, only the Devil speaks Standard English.) --Kjoonlee 08:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Many people do not understand that spoken language and written language are very different things. One could even make an argument that the phrase "written language" is an oxymoron, though I wouldn't go that far. How difficult it is to learn a given language is very dependent on whether you wish to speak or read (and write) that language. My own experience with foreign languages (I am a native American English speaker) is with Russian and French. For spoken language, I found French to be marginally easier, because of the numerous similarities between French and English words. For written language, I found learning the cyrillic alphabet trivial. In fact, when trying to read aloud, I found Russian easier because there was less confusion derived from the same symbols being used for different phonemes. --Michael Richters 16:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

June 20

Looking for a political term in English

Some five years ago, I took an introductory political science course in which the instructor mentioned a kind of (governmental) policy which is used as a red herring: to distract people from some other policy. There was a technical term for it, but I just can't remember it. I looked thru my college notebooks, and couldn't find it. Any ideas what it is? It's not obviously descriptive stuff like "red herring", "boondoggle" or something else, and if I remember correctly, it was an ____ (adjective) policy (though I may be very mistaken). It's also not something you hear/read on news that often, or I probably wouldn't have such a hard time remembering it. Hints would be most appreciated! --dcabrilo 05:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC) P.S. I now realize this probably should've went onto Humanities, not Language... but I won't move it now. --dcabrilo 05:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Political jargon is a little like regional dialects, it evolves in one particular place and only migrates after close interaction between the different speakers. If you can specify where you were when you encountered the phrase, it will help narrow down the search for your answer. Thanks. Road Wizard 06:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you be talking about a "rider", which is a proposal for a law or governmental action that is discreetly added onto a bill for an unrelated law? This is done in the hopes that the voting legislators won't notice the addition and approve the whole thing. For example, if someone wanted federal funding for a bridge to nowhere, and added the proposal to a public health bill.--Tachikoma 13:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Tachikoma, no, that's not it. I'm talking about a policy used to distract the public from another policy. Let me give you an USA example (which I'm pulling out of my ass just to demontrate, not true or false): NAFTA is failing, but so that we don't think about it, the government passes an abortion bill.

Road Wizard, I heard it in the US Midwest. I don't think the term was too regional though... --dcabrilo 15:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a policy, but there's the colloquial "hot-button" topic, which may not be quite what you're looking for.--Tachikoma 18:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not it. Thanks for trying though :) --dcabrilo 19:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard the variations of the term wag-the-dog policy a number of times, though I've never seen the film.--Pharos 04:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

A (deliberate) distraction? A smokescreen? Jameswilson 22:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

fait ac·com·pli (fā'tä-kôN-plē', fĕt'ä-)

Quote on language complexity

"All languages have about the same complexity: very complex." I'm quoting this from memory. I've heard some of my professors saying it, but who said this first? --Kjoonlee 07:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Franz Boas was one of the first whose thoughts tended in this direction as a result of his more or less scientific researches. Though language wasn't his main interest (and I doubt he would have said the exact wording above), the above quote is probably ultimately Boasian-influenced. AnonMoos 09:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I saw the same quote in a book lately that was attacking the idea, but I've forget who the book claimed said it. It's referenced in McWhorter's book Defining Creole. As a disclaimer, I disagree very sharply with McWhorter's conclusions: he constructs an argument on the notion that some languages are objectively simpler than others. But he does cite the idea's pedigree. --Diderot 09:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's ridiculous to say that all languages have the same complexity. Some languages such as Latin and Russian are highly inflected with many different noun cases and verb declensions. This makes them more complex grammatically than languages like Spanish or English whose grammar relies on syntax to a much greater extent than inflection. That pertains to grammar, but in other aspects like spelling, English is more complex than most other languages. At an extreme, Esperanto is much less complex than any major world language. As a general rule languages become simpler as they evolve; for example, Anglo-Saxon was much more complex gramatically than modern English. This evolution from complex to simple grammatical structure is continuing today; for example the word whom is becoming gradually obsolete. --Mathew5000 19:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like you're mixing up the linguistic sense of the term "grammar" (which includes syntax, semantics, morphology, phonology, phonetics, and pragmatics) with its narrower sense, which just means syntax. Spelling is irrelevant to a language's complexity. As for evolutionary linguistics, I don't think your link supports that claim, and I doubt a general survey of current and past languages would support your claim. --Kjoonlee 18:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Latin morphology is difficult, as you mention. As a side-effect, that makes its syntax simple. Which you also mention. Esperanto seems to have complex morphology, lenient phonotactics (potentially complex phonology), loose syntax (in English, questions normally only start with modal verbs or wh-words). Judging from the above, it would look like Esperanto is pretty complex. --Kjoonlee 18:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, if you ever find a language where every aspect (phonology, syntax, slang, vocabulary) comes to you incredibly easy, it's either extremely similar to a language that you already know, or you discovered a weird gap in the learning process.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

heiratic script converot

looking for anyone who can help me write a phrase in heiratic script...TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE.... can anyone help..please....

First you need to translate it into the ancient Egyptian language, and then deciding how to write it is a whole separate level of complexity. I don't know why you specify hieratic, since hieroglyphs are generally more impressive looking. Most of the people who could give a definitively-correct answer to your question are probably professional academics with lots of other tasks (which they would consider more important) to occupy their time. AnonMoos 11:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

thank you for responding anon moos.. but its heiratic i want..the history and beauty of this writing means alot to me.. i wanted the phrase tattoed to remind my self of the quote,,,i already have heiroglphics...thanx anyway....

the only letters i cant find in heiratic script are..O,E,L..does anyone know if they exist in heiratic alphabet???

We have an article on Hieratic, which may help you, and the article on the Egyptian language will help you put this stage of the language into perspective. A translation into Egyptian hieroglyphs would be easier, and probably easier to tatoo. It would take me some time to get a translation right. — Gareth Hughes 11:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I wonder if you really "have" hieroglyphics -- using a table of simplistic 1-1 correspondences between letters of the modern Latin alphabet and ancient Egyptian uniconsonantal hieroglyphic signs might be moderately adequate for transcribing your name into a cartouche as a gag, but if you try to transliterate the Latin letters "T-O-T-H-I-N-E-O-W-N-S-E-L-F-B-E-T-R-U-E" into hieroglyphics using such a table, this would result in a gibberish which would convey no meaning whatever to an ancient Egyptian scribe... AnonMoos 12:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"T-O-T-H-I-N-E-O-W-N-S-E-L-F-B-E-T-R-U-E" would make no sense to an ancient Latin scribe, either. That doesn't mean it should be written in Deseret or Shavian. Most scripts have been used for multiple languages, and there's no reason why Egyptian hieroglphyics or heiratic shouldn't be used for a personal message in English.--Prosfilaes 03:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Even if you want to just transcribe English sounds into Egyptian in any moderately slightly authentic way, that demands a certain degree of linguistic sophistication (since it involves a degree of complexity that goes far beyond a simple 1-1 table of Egyptian hieroglyphs which supposedly correspond to Latin-alphabet letters). Asking what Egyptian signs correspond to the Latin letters "O" and "E" is simply the wrong question. AnonMoos 02:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You may want to request that they extend support of WikiHiero to include hieratic script. Also keep in mind that "to thine own self be true" basically means the same as "be true to yourself", which is much easier to translate.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  11:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Hieratic does not have an alphabet like English: it has one-consonant signs (or uniliterals), signs for two or three consonants (biliterals and triliterals) and signs for determinatives and logographs. — Gareth Hughes 11:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not use Meroitic script?

Dear anonymous questioner:

Egyptian writing may just be too convoluted for you to handle in a way that would assure you of validly meaningful results, or allow you to personally verify what may be proposed by others (and I know that I would want something to be absolutely 100% correct if I were going to have it engraved into my body!) -- unless you have at least some degree of basic academic linguistic knowledge, and are willing to work hard to master the various complexities of the ancient Egyptian language and script. Trying to work with a fixed and rigid equivalence of one Egyptian sign for each letter of the Latin alphabet is guaranteed to give bogus and meaningless results. Trying to simply transcribe the English sounds into Egyptian script (and so avoiding translating the English-language phrase into an Egyptian-language phrase) is itself a rather complex task, which demands a certain degree of linguistic sophistication to perform somewhat correctly -- made even more difficult by the fact that the basic Egyptian writing system does not write vowels at all (in any direct or simply understandable way). There's a so-called "syllabic orthography" for transcribing foreign-language proper names, but this is also a lot more complex than any simple fixed 1-1 correspondence between modern Latin alphabet letters and ancient Egyptian signs.

So why not use Meroitic script instead? It has both imposingly mysterious hieroglyphic forms and more squiggly hieratic-looking forms, and it's kind of half-way between an alphabet and a simple syllabary, and only contains two-dozen symbols in each of the visual forms, so that the complexities are much reduced. And since no one understands the Meroitic language, the question of translating from English into another language just doesn't arise -- the only possibility is of a simple transcription of English sounds, and Meroitic (unlike Egyptian) has plenty of vowel symbols for the task. And if you're of any Afrocentric tendency, then Meroitic is indisputably 100% Black African. So my advice would be to go for Meroitic... AnonMoos 16:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

German names

Why e.g. Schweinsteiger is called Bastian while Kehl - Sebastian? Are they a separate names? --Brand спойт 11:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are separate names. Why not actually? That's a difference similar to the one between Dan and Daniel. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 11:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, not really separate names; Bastian is probably a diminutive of Sebastian, which basically means it's a shorter version of the same name, with a nickname-ishy twist.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  11:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

They're of the same origin, that's true. Dan is also a shorter version of Daniel. However, they're each used separately, which makes them separate names in my eyes. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 11:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

*shrugs* I sometimes call my sister "Andrea", "Andy", and "Anne" all in the same sentence.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  11:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but in that case you use nick names. She surely has only one of the names in her ID and elsewhere. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 11:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Katherine and Kate

I'm unsure about Bastian and Sebastian, because I don't know about German culture. But I have a question too. Kate is a short form of Katherine, originally from a time when the <h> did not influence pronunciation. Would Kate be a different name from Katherine? --Kjoonlee 12:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

As mentioned for some other names above, Kate is a nickname for Katherine, but it could also be a separate name. That is, there are probably women officially named Kate who would never call themselves Katherine. --Cam 12:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Some people would, if introduced to a person called Katherine or Catherine or Katerina, immediately start calling her Cathy, or Kathy, or Cath, or Kath, or Kate, or Katie, or Cat, or Kat or even Cathers. For them this is automatic, whether the person likes it or not. In other cases, the person has take the nickname as their common name, and uses it instead, but they would not usually change their official name, so that bank accounts, passports etc. would use their full, long name. Other parents might choose the name Cathy, or Kathy, or Cath, or Kath, or Kate, or Katie, or Cat (etc.) for their child; that would be their official name and appear on their birth certificate, passport etc. So the answer is "it depends". In the eyes of the law of the UK and USA, your name is what you were christened unless you change it officially; but you can call yourself by any name so long as there is no fraudulent intent (which would be the case on a bank loan or passport application). Notinasnaid 12:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If someone has the name Katherine in her ID and some else just Kate (which I'm sure is the case), I would regard them as two separate names, of common origin though. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 12:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Differences between the tenses

When will I use:

• I forget,
• I have forgotten,
• I forgot, and
• I had forgotten?
• (By the way, does "I am forgetting" ever exist? Is there any idea of "my memory is losing/fading away/...", like the patients of Alzheimer's disease?)

Let's say,

• in case 1, I couldn't remember anything before Mary reminds me "Have you paid the bill yet?". What's my response? "No, I _____(forget)."
• in case 2, I suddenly remember I haven't paid the bill. How should I tell Mary? "I _____(forget) to tell you I haven't paid the bill."

Thank you. Kahang 12:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I forget is present tense: it can mean an immediate forgetfulness or a repeated one. I forgot is past tense: it simply indicates that the forgetting happened sometime past. I have forgotten is present tense with perfect aspect: this means that the act of forgetting has already happened, but that its effect is present now (so it would be appropriate in case 1 above, where Mary uses the present perfect Have you paid?). I had forgotten is past perfect, it is used when talking about a time past when a previous act of forgetting has its effect ('I went to collect my winnings last Tuesday, but I had forgotten to validate my ticket on Monday'). The present with the progressive aspect — I am forgetting — is not much used outside of dialectal English. It emphasizes that it is an immediate act of forgetting, rather than a habitual one. This distinction is important with some verbs ('I play football' vs. 'I am playing football'), but not so important with forget. Of course, this aspect also exists in the past tense — I was forgetting. — Gareth Hughes 12:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In the two cases above, either forgot or have forgotten would work. As Mary's reminder in case 1 and my own memory in case 2 mean that at the time of speaking I have not forgotten, it might be more appropriate to say I forgot: the state of forgetfulness is no longer present, but it was in the past. — Gareth Hughes 12:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Where I'm from (England), I forget is idiomatic and means I don't (can't) remember. Is this what the original poster is driving at? —Blotwell 13:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

An example of "I am forgetting": "I am forgetting to tell you something that I know I promised someone to tell you... what the devil was it!"  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how that "example" can be correct. Surely "I am forgetting" implies a deliberate act of forgetting something in progress, which is not really possible.--Shantavira 18:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's using 'forget' in the sense of 'failing to remember', which is dubious. You could however use it in the sense of 'in the act which I am currently engaged in, I have forgotten', e.g. 'Sorry, I'm forgetting my manners'. Henry^Flower 18:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Both are common where I live, and although the first one is a rare formulation, I have heard it. One phrase that comes to mind is "forgetting oneself", as in "you're forgetting your place, peon". I always figured it was an Americanism, for some reason. Americans seem to use the present participle more often. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks all!! -- Kahang^{Shall we talk?} 11:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

proscription

where can I get a proscription? 82.131.190.200 15:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The Second Triumvirate? AnonMoos 16:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe L. Cornelius Sulla was also prepared to issue them at a moment's notice. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 16:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The links seem to be ancient. Where can I get a proscription? 82.131.190.200 17:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Who is trying to wind up whom? The proscriptions in our article are indeed ancient. Search first! See proscription. --Shantavira 18:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you don't mean a prescription, as in an order given by a medical doctor, for obtaining medicine? You would need to see a doctor for a prescription.--Tachikoma 18:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I always mess this one up too, as I pronounce them identically but it should be "A doctor prescribes medicine and proscribes cigarettes". Jameswilson 22:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Roman banana

I believed that there is no Latin word for "banana" (btw. Musa was called after Octavian's physician, Antonius Musa). However I found the word ariena which according to my Latin-Russian dictionary was used by Plinius for "banana". Thoughts? --Brand спойт 15:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What is your question exactly? (By the way in English he is usually called Pliny). --Cam 16:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

the question seems to be whether the original "factoid" was not therefore erroneous: was whoever said there is no Latin word for "banana" mistaken? The second half of the question seems to be a cite showing this. I think someone should trot out the "apple" reference from the old testament, which some people believe is a tomato. What? Why? It does not make sense. Therefore, you must equit.

The banana is native to India, so it is quite possible that Alexandar the Great encountered it. However, the word ariena has only one citation in the Perseus Project, from Pliny's Natural History, here given in translation: [15] Read the description for yourself and see if it sounds like a banana. There's no other way to know. —Keenan Pepper 02:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm quite sure there is a Latin word for banana, as Latin is still used for producing new documents even now. I'm sure Linnaeus had some way to refer to the banana. --Prosfilaes 03:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Linnaeus called it Musa. But "banana" already has a handy first-declension construction! Oh well. Adam Bishop 05:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, 'musa' comes from Arabic 'Moza', meaning 'banana'.CCLemon 05:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Apostrophe use

It is generally known that an apostrophe, followed by an 's' denotes the possesive case. Also, it can denote an omission, (i.e., where characters are actually missing from words, such as in 'planes, 'phones and photo's.

I note that many people, when using initializations in the plural, place an apostrophe before the 's'. e.g., "PCB's are known carcinogens". Is it correct to use an apostrophe here, (although I believe its use if intended to show an omission is not appropriate as there is no omission by virtue of the fact that PCB is an initialization). Should it not read, "PCBs are known carcinogens"?

Thank you.

That's known as the greengrocer's apostrophe, but I doubt that your "'planes, 'phones, and photo's" examples are the preferred usage there, either -- all of those examples are considered standalone words now (as opposed to, say, 'cept for except or the usual contractions like it's). — Lomn | Talk 17:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's really a greengrocer's apostrophe in this case. The question of how to pluralize initialisms has had two competing answers for a while. The issue of whether you should write (for example) Q.E.D. or QED has received different responses in our lifetime, and the old style looks weird without an apostrophe (compare P.C.B.s versus P.C.B.'s). As the norm moved in the direction of eliding the periods, the question of plurals had to be hashed out all over again. Older style guides recommended using an apostrophe to delineate the suffix, and I believe some still do. Newer style guides tend to follow the no-apostrophe style. I have seen editors of linguistics journals change "NPs" to "NP's" as recently as the early 90s (or 90's), so I don't think there's a really solid consensus for the newer style. It's hard to have a definitively correct answer when change is happening all around you. · rodii · 18:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Arguably, the plurals of initialisms should involve the duplication of one of the initials. Hence the plural of M.S. (manuscript) is properly M.S.S. This is analogous to the use of p for "page" and pp for "pages". Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 21:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Ms. isn't an initialism, as far as I know. That is, it doesn't stand for "Manu Scriptum" or something. It's just an abbreviation. But if you were right, what would the plural of N.G.O. be? · rodii · 21:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, manu scriptum is quite literally the Latin for "written by hand", so I see no reason why it shouldn't be an initialism, if a slightly affected and pompous one. Well, purely theoretically, I suppose it would be N.G.O.O., since the organisation is the actual noun and the other initials are purely adjectival. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 22:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sam, where are you getting that "rule" from? Are you just using induction on pp, and mss? Those are very specialized, idiomatic constructions, like ff for "following pages". · rodii · 22:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert. That said, I'm not talking completely out of my neck. To quote manuscript, 'by an old convention, it doubles the last letter of the abbreviation to express the plural, just as pp means "pages".' Maybe it is highly specialised and idiomatic. I didn't say it should be used. All I said was that it is arguable. I am being absolutely inductive, and I see no problem with that, as long as it is clear that I'm not presenting an absolute rule. I'm theorising and hypothesising. Some people like hockey. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 22:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, people who like hockey suck. No, I'm just talking too, not trying to give you a hard time. It was an interesting (<subliminal>crazy</subliminal>) hypothesis. :) · rodii · 02:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's what the NYT Style Guide had to say (I don't have an exact cite, unfortunately): "Use apostrophes in the plurals of abbreviations and in plurals formed from letters and figures: M.D.'s; C.P.A.'s; TV's; VCR's; p's and q's; 747's; size 7's. (Many publications omit such apostrophes, but they are needed to make The Times's all-cap headlines intelligible and are therefore used throughout the paper for consistency.)" So at least one supposed authoritative source allows the apostorphe. · rodii · 22:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone really say "photo's" with the apostrophe meaning omission of "graph" and not the greengrocer's apostrophe, as in "we have postcard's with picture's and photo's"? JIP | Talk 19:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

My personal preference is to omit all periods within an abbreviation, and omit the apostrophe with plural abbreviations. My argument would be, we don't use apostrophes for any other plurals so why make an exception for abbreviations? But in some circumstances, eg. advertising signage where unusual or custom-made letter designs are used, and periods may appear between letters, it might be appropriate to use the apostrophe for clarity, and I wouldn't necessarily say they were "wrong" unless they did it inconsistently. What looks best:

• DVDs
• DVD's
• D.V.D.s
• D.V.D.'s
• D.V.Ds
• D.V.D's

The answer could vary from sign to sign. That "old convention" on plurals of abbreviations also applies to "opp.", the plural of "op." (for "opus", in titles of musical works). JackofOz 02:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• Don't put periods in the word DVD, that's not correct. As for using an apostrophe to show missing letters. In this case you shouldn't. You don't do it for the first D and V and it confuses plural and possesive forms. DVDs is the only correct form. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
• On a side note: when using abbreviations as words (initialisms), periods make it harder for a reader to read. HAVO and VWO (Dutch school terms) aren't written with periods either, even though they are initialisms. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing that is rarely mentioned about this sort of extended use of punctuation for delimiting letters is that it probably has much more to do with hand-written text. Typed text is clearer and does not really need extra information to tell you that QED should not be pronounced as a word. A scibbled 90s could be interpreted as gos, photos might be pronounced phow-toss and PCBs might seem like PCBS some other initialism. Just as punctuation is used to break up writing for readability, it was also used to highlight trickily used words but clearer typography has rendered them mostly unnecessary. MeltBanana 14:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Quoting a website in a press release

I'm writing a press release and I've done a heap of research on how to do it right, but there's something I haven't found; what's the legality of quoting something that's been said by a particular person on a website? Do I have to get permission, or is it available to be quoted by virtue of being public? I would be crediting the originator.--Anchoress 23:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Is that website aimed at reviewing the product or service the press release is about? Did you ask them to say anything about it? - Mgm|^(talk) 08:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Not really, but I'm not sure I understand your question.--Anchoress 10:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

When you're asking a question about legality you should specify what jurisdictions are involved since something that is legal in one country might be illegal in another. Aside from that you may want to elaborate on your question. Are you concerned about copyright issues? Whenever you quote somebody else's words there is the potential for a copyright law issue to be involved, even if you credit the original author. See the article public domain. If your question is whether text that someone puts on their web site thereby enters the public domain for copyright purposes, the answer is no. However, most countries have exceptions in their copyright law, known by terms like "fair dealing" or "fair use"; this can vary by country. Or was your original question asking about whether you can be sued for libel just for quoting something from a web site? Or does it involve hate speech? Or what specific issue of legality concerns you? --Mathew5000 19:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, lots of good questions, I'll try to answer them. The press release is on a topic related to skin care. The page I want to quote from is by a doctor writing about a skin condition. I want to include in the press release, 'According to Dr X, "______"', which would be a quote from the essay. I am in Canada and the release will go to Canadian and US newswires and publications. I just want to know if it's OK to do this, if including a credited quote from a website by a named author is legal, or if I need to get permission. It's not that I have a problem asking permission, but if I ask and he says no and it turns out I didn't need to ask, that would be a waste of time and might get me into more trouble.--Anchoress 20:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If it's a very short quote then it probably qualifies as fair use or fair dealing, so it probably wouldn't be a copyright violation. It sounds like you're worried that by quoting Dr. X, it may appear that Dr. X is endorsing the organization issuing the press release? (Or endorsing the product that the press release is about, or whatever?) I'm not really sure about the legality on that point, but as a point of ethics I'd say you should draft the press release so that no reasonable person would infer that you have the endorsement of Dr. X. --Mathew5000 03:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the info, Mathew.--Anchoress 04:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

June 21

dolphin language?

what language(s) do dolphins speak?--Bee(y)^Ti 02:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

See Cetacean intelligence#Communication. —Keenan Pepper 02:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Portuguese. Definitely Portuguese. Loomis 22:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Help in translating a Korean sentence

Hi there, I'm learning Korean and I'm trying to translate this sentence. I've done some of it, but if someone who speaks Korean could help me translate this sentence completely, explaining each word if possible, that would be very much appreciated.

제5회 태국 채널 V 뮤직비디오 어워드에서 처음으로2관왕을 차지한 그룹 동방신기도 붉은악마에 가세했다.

Fifth time Thailand channel V music video awards-[from?] first time [2 crown kings?]-[object particle] take up a group Dong Bang Shin Gi (a band name) [in?] Red Devil [did help?]

A quick question as well, why does 동방신기 have a 도? Does that mean "also"? Alex Ng 07:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

You've almost got it finished.

• -에서 can mean "at" as well.
• -으로 means that it's a description of manner. (Not to be confused with -으로, describing a destination.) It's kind of like the English word "with"; it has several uses. 1. Together with. 2. Using. If you clean house with your friend, you're doing it together. If you clean house with a broom, you're using the broom. -으로 can mean "how they did it" or "where they're going".
• 2관왕 is a combination of 2 crown king, but it actually means they "won two medals/awards/etc." at a single ceremony.
• 차지 means to take or to claim as one's own.
• Correct. -도 means "also." Someone else must have joined/helped/got together with the Red Devils as well.
• -에 means destination.
• 가세 means to join forces with someone.

So in full, it would be "Dongbangshingi, who won two awards at the 5th. Thailand Channel V Music Video Awards for the first time, joined the Red Devils as well." --Kjoonlee 10:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Kjoonlee! Now I can actually understand this sentence x.x

I have another question, would you use Sino-Korean counters or Native Korean counters when counting number of times (회) and awards (관왕)? I tried looking at the Korean count word article, but it merely acknowledges the fact that there are two sets of numbers, without saying which one is used to which. Alex Ng 21:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd use Sino-Korean numbers with both, since 회 and 관왕 are Sino-Korean as well. I wouldn't call 회 or 관왕 counter words.

In general, for small numbers, you use native Korean numbers together with counters. If the numbers get big, like 50 or 100, then sometimes you can use Sino-Korean numbers together with counters.

However, there's no hard-and-fast rule for picking which system to use; I think the article used to mention a rule, but I think I edited it out. --Kjoonlee 02:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thanks so much again Kjoonlee! Alex Ng 03:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

inquiry v. enquiry

Is the difference only in English v. American spelling, or in its use?

If it is used differently, what is this difference?

Thanks. Sinead

AFAIK, that's it. —Wayward ^Talk 12:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There can be a difference. 'Inquiry' is used to mean a formal investigation into some matter of public concern. You wouldn't use 'enquiry' in that context. --Richardrj 12:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

To continue from that comment, 'enquiry' simply means a question. Thus you make an enquiry about a friend's health, but the police launch an inquiry into a crime. This difference is slowly blurring, however - it's becoming far more common to see the inquiry spelling for both (but that doesn't mean it's right, dammit!). It might well be that "inquiry" is used in both senses in the US, but the two forms are differentiated in this way in International (i.e., British and Commonwealth) English. Grutness...wha? 12:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I looked up enquiry in Chambers 9th ed., since my American dictionaries only indicated a British variant of inquiry, and it states "inquiry or enquiry (or esp US /inq'kwi-ri/) n the act of inquiring; a search for knowledge; (an) investigation; a question." —Wayward ^Talk 13:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

In British English, the two words should usually be used quite differently. An enquiry is simply a question; an inquiry (on which we have an alarmingly long article) is an investigation. However, the Concise Oxford does say that enquire tends to be preferred in the context of an academic investigation.--Shantavira 18:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation also differs transatlantically. In American English they're stressed on the 1st syllable, but in British it's the 2nd. JackofOz 08:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Brackets

Hi there, I have a question regarding square brackets when used in a single letter of a word. I know that when used in the middle of a sentence it usually indicates a word that is absent from text but was implicit in the situation. Also other uses as explained in the bracket article.

But more than once I have seen it like this:

[T]he word the here has only its first letter in brackets.

This appears on Sallie Baliunas comment here

I can't recall if it's just on the t on the that I've seen this, it just might be.

So, could anyone explain what these brackets are supposed to mean? VdSV9•♫ 11:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

An educated guess: it means that, in the original text, the phrase quoted was part of a longer sentence, hence the t in The would have been in lowercase. Since you're quoting only this fragment, it would look strange if you began with a lowercase letter, so you start in uppercase, but put it in square brackets to indicate that you are not quoting exactly. — QuantumEleven 11:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It does make sense, but then shouldn't one use bracketed ellipses in this case?

[...] and you too have been slacking around at the office all morning, eh?!

VdSV9•♫ 12:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Ellipses are not usually needed at the beginning or the end of a quotation. However, if deliberately omitting the ending of a quotation results in a grammatically incomplete sentence, use an ellipsis. —Wayward ^Talk 12:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The bracketing means that the case of the first letter has changed. This is done, especially in legal writing, when a writer wants to quote his source with the greatest possible fidelity. Doing so is required, for legal citation, by the [Bluebook] manual of legal citation style.--192.35.17.11 14:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes when I am communicating with friends in English-speaking countries that are not the United States, I will write something like "colo[u]r", but I suppose that's something like original research. --LarryMac 19:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The more common way to punctuate that would be "colo(u)r". Square brackets are usually reserved for editorial changes. - Nunh-huh 04:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Please translate the German phrase "Sonnen- und Mondgleiche"

It comes from the article de:Astronomische Uhr#Straßburg which I translated at Strasbourg Cathedral#Astronomical clock. The full sentence is:

Der astronomische Teil ist von außergewöhnlicher Genauigkeit; es werden Schaltjahre, Tagundnachtgleiche, Sonnen- und Mondgleiche und viele weitere astronomische Daten angezeigt.

Schaltjahre means leap years, Tagundnachtgleiche means equinoxes, but I can't figure out Sonnengleiche and Mondgleiche. Thanks! --Mathew5000 19:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm German and not completely ignorant in astronomy, but I have no idea what those are, either. Googling didn't help, so I forwarded your question to the German reference desk equivalent, de:Wikipedia:Auskunft. This certainly needs an explaination in the German article, too... —da Pete (ばか) 21:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Judging by the etimology of the word, I think it shouldn't be taken as two words (Sonnengleiche and Mondgleiche) but as one (Sonnen- und Mondgleiche), just like the word "Tagundnachtgleiche" that's also mentioned. That said, I think it may refer to the time when the Moon is in conjunction with the Sun, see New moon, and Dark moon. At least that's my guess from looking at how the word is formed. --RiseRover|^talk 21:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Correct is Sonnen- und Mondgleichung. -- Martin Vogel 21:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

See solar equation and lunar equation in Computus. -- Martin Vogel 21:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much, da Pete and Martin! --Mathew5000 04:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

alphabet

I have a good friend where I work. He is Wiccan. For my birthday he wrote something down on a rock in this language. I have no idea what it says and am dying to figure it out. If you could send me the alphabet so I can hopefully figure it out or even a link that I can go to to look it up I would appreciate it very much. My e-mail address is [not here anymore. questions are answered here on the desk] Thank you, Jamie

Hi Jamie, Wicca is not a language. it is "a Neopagan religion and a religious movement" (that's from our article, accessible by clicking on the preceding link). That article is not one of Wikipedia's best, but it might give you some resources, although I suspect your friend might be pulling your leg. --LarryMac 20:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

He probably wrote it (or thinks he wrote it) in some kind of Runic alphabet. Adam Bishop 22:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

One approach would be to scan your rock and post the photo here. Odds are someone would know what to make of it. - Nunh-huh 04:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Right. I know how to read "Five feet high the door and three may walk abreast," in Futhork. --Kjoonlee 04:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you can take a picture of the rock. --Proficient 22:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Ogham?--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 00:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Plural of "dwarf"

Is the correct plural "dwarves"? I seem to recall a documentary some years ago about the making of Walt Disney's 1937 animated film about Snow White and her friends. Walt used "dwarfs" in the title, but some English teachers were upset. Walt replied that "dwarfs" just sounded better to him. Is either spelling acceptable? 66.213.33.2 22:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Dictionary.com seems to think dwarves isn't a real word...EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 22:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The article says "Its plural was traditionally dwarfs, but Tolkien used the plural dwarves, which has gone into general usage". Trollderella 22:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Dwarf (looking at Wikipedia first is good) says that dwarfs is traditional and that Tolkien, whose impact would postdate Disney's Snow White, perfered dwarves, which has become popular, but as per Dwarfism, dwarfs is popular for real-life people.--Prosfilaes 22:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Right. Also, if you look at fantasy novels, you'll probably notice that "dwarves" has replaced "dwarfs" as the plural form in the genre. --Kjoonlee 04:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Tolkien wrote a note about it in The Hobbit explaining how he preferred 'dwarves' and now, as has been said, that's come into acccepted usage.

June 22

De dicto vs. de re

Suppose someone asks, "What's the Dow Jones Industrial Average?" I could answer this in two ways:

1. "It's one of several stock market indices created by Wall Street Journal editor and Dow Jones & Company founder Charles Dow."
2. "It's 11,079.46."

Is this an example of a de dicto/de re distinction? Seahen 01:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"It's one of several stock market indices created by Wall Street Journal editor and Dow Jones & Company founder Charles Dow...but that's not important right now." Have you looked at De dicto and de re? Adam Bishop 02:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

the article doesn't actually say anything, it's all just hot air. so, sure, it's a "de dicto/de re" distinction. Likewise, if I say "What is the Dow Jones Average" and you answer that it is the second-best known symbol of the performance of the American stock market (after NASDAQ), it also could be "de dicto/de re". If you ask someone "what is the Dow Jones Average" and they curse you out and steal your wallet, that is also a de dicto / de re distinction. It's all a bunch of postmodern claptrap not worth the paper it's written on. It's a good thing Wikipedia is not paper..

I think the de dicto/de re concept could become something meaningful if it were more clear. Or do you mean the Dow Jones isn't worth the paper it's written on? Seahen 12:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Jack, Jacques... Joaquín?

I believe the English name Jack is equivalent to the French "Jacques," but are they in turn related to the Spanish "Joaquín" or another name I'm missing? Thanks, - Draeco 03:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the name Joachim, while Jacques comes from Jacob. Adam Bishop 03:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

French "Jacques" is equivalent to English James (or Jacob), and to Spanish Santiago. Santiago comes from "Saint Yago", (Yago coming from Jacob). Yago is also still used (or used as pet form of Santiago), so it's another Spanish equivalent to Jacques/James. --RiseRover|^talk 04:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Jack is closely related to John, not to Jacques. Jack (name) gives some background. JackofOz 06:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Santiago is specifically related to St. James of Compostela. In general, the Spanish version of James is Diego. As in San Diego, which refers to an entirely different saint altogether. User:Zoe|^(talk) 01:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Diego alternates with Jaime and Jacobo as the cognate of James and Jacob, much like in English, Mitchell and Michael are doublets. Joaquin was the maternal grandfather of Jesus (of course I'd like the meet the paternal one ;). James/Jacob was a disciple.

I have a cousin and uncle by the name of Joaquín. My cousin's nickname is 'Wacky' the other one is 'Kingky'.( Joaquín just fyi is pronounced hwakin with Spanish spelling.)--Jondel 06:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Wacky and Kinky? Sounds like they're second cousins of Itchy and Scratchy. (lol) JackofOz 08:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

People from the same town

Compatriots is the name given to people from the same country; is there a name to refer to people from the same town? --RiseRover|^talk 08:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

townsman?

Looks like it! Thanks. :)--RiseRover|^talk 11:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the name Barlaam

Hello,

I'm curious as to what the proper pronunciation of the name 'Barlaam' would be.

Thanks

Adam s 09:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I would assume it's pronounced as follows: "bar-lamb"...EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 12:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why would it have a B on the end? I would have thought "bar-layem" more likely if it's Hebrew, but I don't know for sure, I'm afraid.--Shantavira 14:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You may be interested in our article on Balaam, as I would imagine you are interested in him. His name is spelled בלעם bil‘ām, which may be pronounced /bilˈʕaːm/. — Gareth Hughes 14:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In English, his name is usually pronouned /ˈbeɪləm/ (to rhyme with Salem); however, there's no reason to think Adam s wasn't actually asking about Barlaam. Especially since he's asked the same question at Talk:Saint Josaphat. User:Angr 15:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Jumbled Words

1. was/the/Twain/American/writer/in 1986/sent/India/to/country/describe/the.

2.in/nearly/pen/defeat/threw/he/his/away.

3.wonders/decided/the/he/to/land/call/of/simply/it.--Saksham Sharma 10:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Describe India, the country the American writer Mark Twain was sent to in 1986.

2. He nearly threw his pen away in defeat.

3. He decided to call it simply the land of wonders.

You might also be interested to know that solving such problems has a very perceivable effect on our short-term psychology, which I read about in Blink. So, it's a "trick question" since the test really isn't on solving these problems, but the subconscious effects of doing so. (Students solving such problems revolving around the idea / terms associated with "patience" afterwards waited almost indefinitely for a professor's attention who ignored them, talking to a colleague, whereas the control group did not wait for such an unreasonable time (15 minutes plus!) for the professor to turn to them.)

actually, I solved the first one wrong, but it doesn't really matter. the test isn't really on solving these, but rather on the psychological effect of doing so. (For example, the second sentence makes you think of defeat. I would expect students to perform worse (by a large, statistically significant margin) after solving question 2 than a control group solving a sentence about success or triumph.

here's my second try at question 1 : "Was Twain, the American writer, sent to describe the country India in 1986?" Likewise you can transpose "was twain" to "Twain the American writer was sent" so it is not a question. likewise you can put "in 1986" in a number of places. etc. as I said, it doesn't matter.

'All's fair in Love and War'

This is one phrase i've never understood fully. Is it used as an excuse for treacherous behaviour i.e. a boy is after a girl and his friends knows this but still decides to go after her too, using as his justification 'All's fair in Love and War', or is it infact that opposite, saying that love and war are two things where everything must be done fairly, and not treacherously? i hope i've been clear enough there, i'm aware i tend to sort of ramble on in questions. thanks. --Alex.dsch 11:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

it's the first version. "anything goes". likewise: does "waste not want not" mean if you don't waste anything you won't desire anything, or if you don't waste things, you won't be wanting in things. (short of things).

That's an interesting proverb. It reminds me of a Chinese four-character idiom. Bhumiya (said/done) 16:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

No news is good news! Tesseran 06:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It means "Faint Heart never won Fair Lady", and such a faint heart would never win a war of any other kind either.

In Russian, it's "All means are good in war and love". It's a justification. Conscious 19:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Artemis Fowl

Could you help me out and tell me if Artemis Fowl is set in the distant future, near future, or now? Thanks --86.139.216.231 13:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

When I read it, I was given the impression of "now, but with gadgets", like, you know, James Bond or something. I'm not 100% sure, though.- THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 16:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Questions for Commonwealth English speakers

I have a few subjective questions, sort of an informal survey. Which regional variety of North American English do you find most pleasant? Which do you find most prestigious? Which do you find least pleasant/prestigious? Of non-North American varieties, which strikes your ears as most/least pleasant/prestigious? Responses from North American English speakers are also welcome, but please do identify your place of origin. I'm primarily interested in the perceptions of British/Australian/NZ speakers. Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 16:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, they're all kind of similar. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 16:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I am a frequent visitor to the US but I cannot answer the question posed as I don't know all the variations on offer. Wasn't it Winston Churchill who suggested that Britain and America were two countries divided by a common language? As to the second part of the question inviting non-North Americans to indicate their perceptions of spoken English, let me explain that as a North East of England citizen of the UK, who has lived in Scotland for the last 32 years, in my opinion, the best and most attractive form of spoken English I have ever heard is to be found in a town in Inverness-shire in northern Scotland called Beauly (Byoollee). It is the clearest and sweetest sound to emerge from the lips of humans; not quite a song, more of a lilt, with never any vagueness of diction or intent. I cannot vouch for the story I was told when I first visited there over 30 years ago, but it was held out to be the case that when the newly created BBC were struggling to choose which British dialect to use as BBC Broadcast English, "scouts" were sent all over Britain charged with bringing back recommendations for which regional dialect/s might be most readily understood by all the regions. The end result was apparently a very close won decision in favour of Oxford University English as against the Beauly Dialect, which in my opinion, even though I speak as an Englishman living in Scotland, was entirely the wrong choice. But you would have to judge for yourself.

(George Bernard Shaw, actually. --Kjoonlee 19:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC))

He's got it - he's got it, I do believe he's got it !!!

Don't take this the wrong way, but I consider the idea of a prestigious North American accent to be rather amusing. I'd say a Canadian accent is the least unpleasant/vulgar, but I suspect my opinion is tainted by ideological rather than purely aesthetic considerations. Texas or valley girl would tie for the worst, for similar reasons. New York has pleasant associations of Woody Allen, but beyond that I'd have trouble telling the difference. Henry^Flower 19:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You'd probably hate my accent (Cleveland+Richmond), but I'd probably like yours. I consider a Scottish accent, particularly the Edinburgh variety, to be the finest in English. I'm not familiar with Aberdeen's sound. I also like non-rhotic southern accents such as AAVE and my own Virginian (Vuhjinyuhn) English. Of course, I don't necessarily connect "pleasant" to "prestigious". I consider the Iowa/Tom Brokaw accent to be the most prestigious, but I find it very dull and grating. Likewise, I don't particularly care for Estuary English or BBC English. It's interesting that most Britons seem to find American accents uniformly unpleasant and scarcely distinguishable. To my ear, American regional varieties seem to have great variety (which is natural, I suppose, for an American listener).

And Henry, what do you mean by "ideological considerations"? Do you dislike the Texan twang because of its unfortunate association with the one who shall not be named? If that's the case, you ought to prefer the Massachusetts accent, given its political associations. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course! GHWB was born in Brookline, MA, so to me the Massachusetts accents is the finest US accent of all. ;) Loomis 02:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

From my limited contact with North American English listening to news programmes, television shows and films, I only have two distinct classifications for the accents and dialects: Southern USA drawl and not Southern USA drawl. Road Wizard 19:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Ach! I didn't answer the rest of the question. I am from North West England and I don't really have any accent I consider to be most pleasant or prestiguous. I have a few which grate on my nerves, but I am not going to mention them in case I provoke an argument. :) Road Wizard 19:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Jorja Fox's accent is pretty irritating. Jameswilson 23:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

She has an accent? User:Zoe|^(talk) 01:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Everybody has an accent. See idiolect. --Kjoonlee 04:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

My (pretty intentionally) sarcastic comment meant that I don't hear her having any different accent from General American. User:Zoe|^(talk) 01:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I know; that's why I replied like that. Nobody speaks General American; everybody speaks slightly differently. --Kjoonlee 11:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I thought Andie MacDowell's performance in Groundhog Day was very pleasant. --Kjoonlee 05:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I find Canadian accents and Northeastern US accents fairly pleasant, and dislike southern drawl. Worst, though, are the voices used on US television documentaries that seem to assume that the viewer has a mental age of four (obvious joke deliberately avoided here). Their voices either strive to sound "hard hitting and authoritative" while actually sounding dogmatic and slightly dense (news documentaries) or "cute and appealing" while actually sounding offensively patronising, puerile and childish (human interest/nature documentaries). I think the worst North American voices I've heard though are radio announcers - particularly those involved in soprts talkback. Ten seconds of that is enough to have me trying to claw my ears off. Grutness...wha? 05:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

How about AAVE? And what about west coast accents, such as that of California? Bhumiya (said/done) 06:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind Californian too much, though - as I said - I tend to prefer northeastern accents. AAVE is slightly annoying to me, but not so much in itself, more for the fact that a lot of people who use it seem to be doing so for effect. If it sounds natural, then it's no problem, but it's very easy for it to sound phoney. I must admit that my feelings towards AAVE are coloured (no pun intended) by the fact that urban Maori and Polynesians in NZ tend to use something that is influenced by it - and that is often very much a pose rather than natural.

I have to add that more often than not, a particular voice is either pleasing or annoying in itself irrespective of the accent. James Earl Jones could do his worst possible Cockney imitation a la Dick Van Dyke, and he'd still be more listenable to than Fran Drescher, whose voice is like nails down a blackboard irrespective of (although not helped by) her accent. Grutness...wha? 09:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

What's so great about Andie MacDowell's accent? I like how Christopher Walken speaks. What region is he from? --Mathew5000 07:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Walken is from New York, and has a fairly thick New York accent, but he also has a unique, clipped way of talking. Bhumiya (said/done) 08:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I tend to notice "extreme" accents - the southern drawl/twang, the New York-Jewish accent, the Connecticut accent, the Massachussetts accent, the Minnesota "yah" accent, and the Hispanic accent being some of the most obvious examples. I'm Ok with all of these, but the first can get tiring. The rest of the American accents tend to merge into one aural soup for me, although city accents are usually different from rural ones (or maybe that's just a Hollywood stereotype). Anglophone Canadian is more-or-less indistinguishable from soup-American except for words like "about" (which sounds like "a boat"). The only "accent" I particularly dislike is more associated with an age group (in my mind, anyway) than with a region. Hard to describe it - words like "do" and "to" sound like "dyeew" and "tyeew"; words like "engine", "started" and "Moses" (whose last vowel is normally a schwa) become "en-jin", "star-tid" and "Mo-zizz". Really, really horrible. JackofOz 09:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I find that annoying too. I think it may come from California. It's associated in my mind with young women who also happen to pronounce "-ing" as "-een". Could it be Valley speech? Bhumiya (said/done) 01:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The "dyeew" and "tyeew" pronunciatons are East Coast pronunciations. The other, I don't think I've ever noticed. User:Zoe|^(talk) 01:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I enjoy particular dialects which form a distinctive minority in pronounciation and vocabulary, such as Cockney and Ebonics, but beyond that, I don't have much of a bias in the realms of aesthetics. I'm often tempted to ask people where they are from because of their accent, but of course I have to hold back this pulse of curiosity. Sometimes I'll try slurring or distorting words as a sort of experiment to see if anyone will notice, and they usually don't (i.e turning I don't know but you could ask them into ɑ' n' oʊ' bə' tʃɯ' kʊ' dæs' kɪm').--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 02:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

As a Canadian, I'm both a North American English Speaker, as well as a Commonwealth English speaker. Best of both worlds, right? No? Oh well I tried. In any case, my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, as personally, I tend to be fascinated by the most incomprehensible and/or unusual, working-class forms of English.

I love Cockney, as I can't comprehend a word of it. Same with hard-core Glaswegian...but those are both British, so I'm veering off topic.

Newfoundland English has got to be the oddest form of North American English in existence. It's fascinating to listen to. I also have quite a fondness for blue collar Ontario English. It's the most "typical" Canadian English, the kind most people associate with all of Canada.

"I don't know, eh,...so I's been sitting on my couch, eh, and next thing I knows, eh, is my wife comes in and tells me she's leaving me, eh, so I'm like freakin' out, eh,...so I right away call my good friend Doug, eh, and I tells him to bring over a 2-4 of Labatts, eh,...so we're like drinkin' the 2-4, eh, and next thing I knows is my wife comes back, eh?..."

Well I hope you kind of get the idea. I just plain like the oddest and most idiosyncratic forms of English, but that's my thing. Loomis 03:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that it probably has less to do with the sound of the accent more than it has to do with associations of the accent with stereotypical cultural characteristics, in the same way a France-French accent is considered "sexy". On the other hand, I believe to a lot of Anglophone Canadians, a Quebecan-French accent is considered the opposite, because of again stereotypical cultural characteristics. --ColourBurst 06:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually prefer Québecois French to European French. European French is so damned cold and pretentious, while the Québecois are such a warm people. Of course it's a lot more difficult to understand, but then again, as I said, I'm fascinated by incomprehensible dialects. And of course, you'd probably think I'm biased because I live in Quebec, but in reality, most of my fellow "anglos" totally disagree with me on this one. Loomis 22:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm a North American, and I'd just like to say that the "rural Utah" dialect is the most annoying. It sounds like a combination of southern and Scandinavian accents, not to mention the copious grammatical errors. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking for a term in printing: Black marks in galley proofs

When a typesetter finds something that needs further clarification she usually puts a special mark such as a thick black bar into the galley proof in order to catch the author's or proofreader's eye that something is missing and especially alert the printer that the typescript is not yet ready for print. In German, such a mark is called a Blockade, as it is so thick and black that a printer will notice even with a casual glance that this typescript is "blocked", i.e. not cleared for print. How is this mark called in English? Simon A. 16:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Pages that are not ready to be printed should never be sent to the printer, only to the proofreader and the author. As far as I am aware (and I've been a typesetter for 20 years) we don't have an equivalent to the blockade, but a highlighter could be used to draw the reader's attention. Any outstanding queries are normally circled in the text, and a note such as "to be checked" would be circled in the margin. Pages that are not to be used would have a diagonal cross right through them. --Shantavira 18:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I've finally remembered: it's called a slug. 18.250.2.10 10:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Simplified phonetic transcription for Lithuanian

The page in the title is a phonetic transcription system which seems to be used in around six articles here on Wikipedia. The relevant talkpage only has three comments all suggesting a switch to IPA. I know this is probably not the right place, but it is one frequented by people who know IPA so I am seeking help in switching the phonetic guide on these articles, or commenting on whether they think this switch is a good idea. The articles are Mindaugas, Klaipėda, Kęstutis, Algirdas, Panevėžys and Kaunas. Then there are the examples on Lithuanian language. Stefán Ingi 18:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You could explain on the talk pages, then tag the article with {{Cleanup-ipa}}. The English approximations should be replaced with proper IPA as well, IMHO. --Kjoonlee 18:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, there is even a template for it, thanks. -- yes, when the IPA is there, it seems pointless to have an IPA-esque approximate pronounciation. Stefán Ingi 19:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Chinese??

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42+39+19+N,+94+10+02+E&ie=UTF8&ll=42.655274,94.167219&spn=0.004947,0.013561&t=k&om=1 What does this say in Chinese??--Sonjaaa 22:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparently it's "Long live chairman Mao!"--Sonjaaa 23:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

毛主席万万岁！
mao2 zhu3xi2 wan4wan4 sui4!
[May] Chairman Mao [live for] a hundred million years! --Cam 23:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

See Ten thousand years for the expression. —Keenan Pepper 00:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a forgery to me. It is a computer touch up instead of a real physical feature on the ground. --Chan Tai Man 13:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't assume so quickly. It appears to be real, and at approx 300m, it's entirely feasible. Very cool!  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

For more cultural revolution jollity, see http://sun-bin.blogspot.com/2006/06/new-google-earth-beta-better.html . 1960s China was a pretty surreal place. Henry^Flower 16:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It does look photoshopped to me, and Google does have controversial dealings with the Communist Party of China (see Internet censorship in mainland China#Search engines). On the other hand, it wouldn't be the first such message discovered by aerial photos; see forest swastika. Seahen 16:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The Chinese government may be nasty old buggers, but the idea of them asking Google to put Cultural Revolution-era slogans into satellite images is a bit of a stretch. Henry^Flower 17:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Why go through all that trouble when they could just pay people to paint it on, anyway? --ColourBurst 19:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

As someone else suggested, the picture looks like photoshopped. The words do not look 3D nor they follow the countour of the hills, but prefectly orthogonal to the satellite viewpoint -- which is highly improbable in the real world. --Chan Tai Man 13:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Microsoft's satellite service also shows this sort of thing, apparently. I would think that Google and MSN get their photos from different sources; it only makes sense that they would put exclusivity provisions in their contracts. Anyway, compare the images at the following two URLs. In the Google image you can zoom in and see that it is Chinese writing; the Microsoft image is much lower resolution but from a distance you can just make it out:

• http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.542,94.3278&spn=0.08,0.12&t=k&om=0
• http://local.live.com/default.aspx?cp=42.542~94.306&lvl=13&style=a&v=2

--Mathew5000 18:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was common sense but some people seem to be doubting so I guess it has to be said explicitly: the figures in those images are real. They were created during the cultural revolution, presumably to be seen from overpassing planes. They carry various messages, some communist and others, "learn from the mistakes of the war", not so.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  07:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the response from Google's help desk: "Thank you for your note. We have researched this location and the imagery. These are actually real landmarks placed in western China by a regional air force unit to serve as landmarks for use during pilot training." --Mathew5000 22:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

June 23

Thin ear needed

I'm moving this from Talk:International Phonetic Alphabet.

Hi, I'd like to invite a phonetics expert with a thin ear to resolve some doubts we have on Talk:Serbo-Croatian language. Basically, we agree that we hear different L's in Bulgarian and Serbian versions of a text, but can't find out what's the phonetic source of the difference. Thanks in advance, Duja 13:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but if someone can upload two speech samples of "a same word" spoken by a Bulgarian speaker and a Serbian speaker, then I can try spectrogram analysis with Praat. --Kjoonlee 04:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yikes, I've taken a look at your link, and the discussion is way over my head, and it would take me a lot of effort trying to figure out what velarization &c. looks like in spectrograms. I doubt I can help, but sound samples would help the real experts, I guess. --Kjoonlee 05:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

We already kind of figured out that Serbian is dental, more like English (tongue tip between the teeth) and Bulgarian alveolar (tongue tip at alveolar ridge), more like French. The IPA does not distinguish the symbols though. Duja 07:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, we didn't exactly figure it out 100%. Your interpretation was very convincing, but I'd still be glad to see more data and hear what other people think. BTW, the English-French parallel was about apical vs laminal. --85.187.44.131 12:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the IPA does distinguish between dental and spot-on alveolar if necessary, by putting a diacritic below the symbol [t̪] if it represents a dental consonant, and leaving out the diacritic if no distinction is made.  Denelson83  07:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Spectrographic analyses of /l/ are difficult, but if there's a word that is identical in the two languages, I would be able to do it. To give an English example, lull in isolation or holding phonetic context constant, pronounced in different dialects in English may have different variants of /l/, and you could distinguish them spectrographically by seeing how high the second formant is. However, if the phonetic context is different, then it wouldn't work because both preceding and following sound influence the /l/, and even worse, the //l influences them. It becomes a mess very easily. If you're still interested, I'd have a look, but I need an /l/ that is a perfect match because I dont' have time to sort it all out. mnewmanqc

Does it need to be a perfect match, or is it only the immediately adjacent sounds? Could Bulgarian Galileja vs. Serbian Galileji (genitive case) do? We might have a perfect match, too (slava), but I have my doubts about whether it is the best example of the difference between the two languages. Anyway, our basis for my discussion with Duja was this site, but it doesn't work for me right now. If it is fixed soon, I could extract the relevant words from the texts there and send them to you by email or, if you don't want to expose your email here, I could upload them (which would take more time, because I don't know how to upload sound files). --85.187.44.131 12:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Greek names

Hello, I want to know whether Plato's name (Πλάτων) is in the form of the masculine plural genitive declension. Thanks.--K.C. Tang 04:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It is masculine singular nominative, declined like this. --Cam 05:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I see, thanks a lot! the Ancient Greek grammar doesn't cover that...--K.C. Tang 06:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I don't know Greek. I see now that the link I gave is talking about Modern Greek, so proceed with caution, the declension may not be the same in Ancient Greek. --Cam 06:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is masculine singular nominative, third declension, declined Πλάτων, Πλάτονος (nominative, genitive). Cf. here for more info. Hope this helps -- Smyth is a good reference manual. --Anon.

In case the previous links didn't make it clear, that means that Πλάτων is nominative masculine singular, and it declines:

Πλάτων, Πλάτονος ὁ

Nom Πλάτων
Acc Πλάτονα
Gen Πλάτονος
Dat Πλάτονι

Nom Πλάτονες
Acc Πλάτονας
Gen Πλάτονων
Dat Πλάτουσι(ν) with ν if it is at the end of a sentense or preceding a vowel

Hope that clears every thing up. Daniel (‽) 18:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

"Πλάτονων" would appear to violate the usual accent-placement rules... AnonMoos 19:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Quite right, it does. It should be paroxytone. Maid Marion 10:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Swedish?

This advert for a pleorama seems to be for some kind of panorama or myriorama show. Can anyone see any more specific details about the entertainment, please? And can someone translate "Rörlig bild som framställer ett landskap som det visar för en förbiseglande" which I think is about moving panoramas? Many thanks --HJMG 07:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The passage you quoted means 'moving images that represent a landscape as it's seen by someone who sails past'. I can translate the rest for you in a few minutes. :) - ulayiti (talk) 13:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Here goes:

If weather permits, we will show at the Kupittaa well salon (?), for the first time on Saturday 22 May and the following days between 4 and 10 pm, a large pleorama and depiction from the newest battlefields and largest cities in Europe and America.

Programme for the first showing:

1. The battle of Isly (?) on the 14th of August 1844 (a 24-foot painting, by Horace Vernet).

   This scene gives an excellent and satisfying overview of the Moroccan-French battlefield. An army, nearly four times stronger than the victors, must give way here to the effects of the newest methods of warfare, even though the Africans fought with the most furious desperation, a fiery hate and a fervent religious fanaticism. Hundreds of bodies cover the battlefield, which is filled by Frenchmen under Marshal Bugeaud, Africans and Kabyles. The battle is raging and the rush of people is unpleasant, especially around the tent of Sidi Mohamed and his son Abberhamann, and the scene is terribly beautiful, as everywhere there are fleeing Africans, running Kabyles and victoriously advancing Frenchmen, while creating great and piquant formations.

2. Overview of Florence and surrounding regions in Italy.
3. The conquest of Vienna

   the night of 1 November 1848 (or 1818?).

4. The large battle by Sinope

   between Russians and Turks, where the Russians won.

5. Jerusalem

   the capital of the ancient Jewish kingdom in Asia Minor. This large painting is copied from a crafty oil painting completed in 989, which is kept in the Royal Bavarian Art Gallery in Munich, and it shows the holy city in the way it will have been in Christ's time. Besides many significant things, the whole story of the Passion with its consequential events is depicted on the painting. Gethsemane, Golgata and the Saviour's grave remind the viewer of great and sacred events.

6. View over inner Kingston in North America

   during the yearly market event, with around a hundred entertainments among other things.

7. The holy Grave Procession in Jerusalem

   a procession of Roman and Greek priests, which takes place every Good Friday.

8. A large sea storm by Gibraltar in 1854.

The collection is shown daily from 4 to 10 pm in brilliant lighting.

This panorama is one of the largest to be shown until now (between 60 and 70 glasses) and the glass is of its own class and best quality, and will not harm your eyes.

The entrance fee is 40 silver kopeks.

For the benefit of the public, every visitor will receive a free gift.

Dogs must not be taken along. - Smoking cigars is not permitted.

- ulayiti (talk) 14:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wow, ulayiti, thank you so much! It's very generous of you to translate the whole thing - and very helpful. (It all sounds sensational!) Thanks again :) --HJMG 15:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Translate: Vulnerant omnes, ultima necat.

Please would you help with the following:

I wonder if there is a definitive translation into English from the Latin: Vulnerant omnes, ultima necat. I recall seeing it scribed on the faces of old clocks.

Your help would be much appreciated. It is particularly at times such as this that I wish I’d had the opportunity to learn Latin at school!

Would you mind replying to: [cut]

Best wishes.

Every (hour) wounds, the last kills. (from a google search)--Andrew c 14:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

or a bit more faithfully, "All (hours) wound, the last kills". - Nunh-huh 14:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Rather found on gnomons than on clocks. There must be a collection of such sayings somewhere over the net (googlimages does not show engraved tests). --DLL 20:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Omnes means all, vulnerant means wound, how strange that the word 'hour' is not included, is a reader just expected to fill that in himself? Evilbu 17:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

If it was written on a saucepan, yes, it would be hard to use the context. --DLL 21:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Modern speakers of Romance languages would be familiar with noun dropping like this. If the Spanish phrase "Todos dañan, última mata" were engraved on a clock, a modern speaker would not hesitate to provide the implied subject "hours." I feel safe assuming that the same mood would be present in Latin, especially in modern usages. -Diabolic 16:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that it doesn't mean 'hour' specifically (as in time), but refers to 'experiences' in life. With 'OMNES' meaning 'everything', this would make sense.CCLemon 06:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

But omnes doesn't mean 'everything'. That would be omnia. And yes, the reader is supposed to supply the word for 'hours'. The clues are (a) the context, and (b) the gender (feminine) of 'ultima'.Maid Marion 10:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

June 24

German pronunciation

In the word "zwanzig", is the final consonant a voiceless velar plosive or a voiceless palatal fricative? I was led to believe it was the latter, but I'm not sure. Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 01:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I was taught to say it as the latter (like "-ich") when final but "g" in words such as "Zwanzigerjahren". Jameswilson 02:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

me too--K.C. Tang 03:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It varies; see German phonology:

Another common merger is that of /ɡ/ at the end of a syllable with /ç/ (after a front vowel) or, less commonly, /x/ (after a back vowel or /a/). In the case of the ending -ig, this pronunciation is prescribed by the Siebs standard, for instance wichtig [ˈvɪçtɪç]. The merger occurs neither in Austro-Bavarian German and Alemannic German nor in the corresponding varieties of standard German.

(I have a German song in which two different people use the word "traurig"; one uses the ich-Laut and the other just says /g/.) —Zero Gravitas 03:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, pronouncing final -ig as [ɪk] rather than [ɪç] sounds very Southern. However, Northern sometimes do it too as a form of hypercorrection, because in the North you hear [tax] for Tag and [tsʊx] for Zug. So when they're being careful about pronunciation, Northerners will remember to say [ta:k] for Tag adn [tsu:k] for Zug, but then will also say [tsvantsik] for zwanzig. This happened a lot in the Berlin choir I used to sing in; the choir director was always having to remind people to pronounce -ig as [ɪç]. User:Angr 05:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick responses, everyone. Bhumiya (said/done) 06:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

While on the topic of German pronunciation how is final "ng" pronounced? For example, is Zeitung pronounced [tsaɪtuŋ] or [tsaɪtuŋk]? I've read the phonology article, but it seems like I've heard the latter pronunciation. Or maybe I'm influenced by a faux German accent where they say "hello dahlink!" --Chris S. 18:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It's normally pronounced [tsaɪtuŋ]. [tsaɪtuŋk] is very non-standard, but people do use it sometimes. Rueckk 14:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronouncing final ng as [ŋk] is a Northern German feature. Studies on it have shown it occurs at the end of intonational phrases (in laymen's terms, roughly when a punctuation mark follows in written German). Thus in the sentence Die Zeitung ist da ("The newspaper's here") it will always be [tsaɪtuŋ], but in Wo ist die Zeitung? ("Where's the newspaper?") it can be [tsaɪtuŋk] in the relevant accents. User:Angr 14:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds about right. But I don't know, I still think it's non-standard even in the North. I only ever hear that from people speaking the local dialect (I live in Berlin). Rueckk 17:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

So do I. And I never said it was standard! :-) User:Angr 18:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Early romanization of Japanese

Is it true that the earliest improvised romanizations of Japanese sometimes made use of the letter L, such that "samurai" might be written as "samulai"? I read this years ago, but now I can find no evidence of it. Does anyone know if there's any truth to it? Bhumiya (said/done) 02:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, take a look at Non standard Japanese romanization. The fact that the japanese "r" is often a soft tap makes it resemble an English non-dark L more than than the approximated english "r." There are other differences too, like "tsu," "chi," and "shi" are often written as "tu," "ti," and "si" in order to make them fit related phonemes of the language.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 02:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 06:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect this isn't true of the "earliest improvised romanizations" (i.e. from the 16th century), but of more modern ones. I think earlier Japanese r was a trill (still is in some dialects), which is hard to mistake for l. --Ptcamn 10:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Chinese Languages Writingwise

Could, for example, Old Hakka, Old Cantonese, Old Mandarin, Old Toi Shan, understand each other in writing SYNTACTICALLY?

Please, [removed email to prevent spam], thanks.

24.70.95.203 03:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

For most of the pre-20th century period, a standardized classical form of the language prevailed in writing, so I'm not sure your question really has too much meaning... AnonMoos 04:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Some people say the above stated languages are dialects, but it is true that language CAN ONLY be officalized via Mutual Unintelligebility. So I was just asking the question, because these modern languages can understand each other in writing; That means that the syntax of the languages are the same, but I/we can't determine if they are different languages, if I/we don't know if the Syntax of the OLd languages were mutually intelligebable. Now, the reason I did not say just '....other SYNTACTAICALLY....' but '....other in writing SYNTACTICALLY....' is because you can't understand the langages phonologically, anyways, so it I just put the '....in writing....' to clarify, but if it didn't help, then I guess that was too bad, we're all sorry, & I'm sorry for everything:'(

But thanks for the reply:-D

24.70.95.203 05:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't mean that the syntax is the same. Written formal language is rarely if ever the same as the spoken language.--Prosfilaes 05:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Umm... I would say "yes" for your question. The dialects were not so different anyway.... -- Kahang^{Shall we talk?} 06:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks your for your reply. Now because of this new fact, how did it come to be that Chinese dialects became Mutaually Unintelligable, both Modern & the Old dialects?

199.126.157.249 21:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

This would be a history matter that I can't explain ;). I give it a try, but as a rough reference only:

Long time ago, the Chinese was located near the centre of now Chinna map (somewhere Shaanxi, Shanxi and Hubei). As the time changed, the country got populated and people started moving outward basically at all direction, but mostly to south and to east.

As a result, despite of language from now Tibet, Xinjiang and Mongol (people from those were always treated as the outsiders), Mandarin (language from the North) and Cantonese (language from the South) have the most difference between them. The languages from the places between have relatively less difference when compared.

It just like a gradient. Or a grayscale as eg, Mandarin is the black, Cantonese is the white, and other languages are the different grays between, the most near the North the darker, vice verse.

But in the old days, because the country was small, the languages had not varied too much. The writings were kept short in order to save ink and paper (and because Chinese hadn't got as many vocabulary as nowadays, too). So if some Chinese didn't understand the writings, the reason was always they hadn't been educated rather the meaning of the words. Another important fact is the whole China were using Traditional Chinese until 1952.

Remember, this is a rough explanation only. All the locations and facts have not been confirmed. You may wanna see History of China and Chinese Language. -- Kahang^{Shall we talk?} 12:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Kemal Atatürk

I am forwarding a request for somebody to put an IPA transcription of the name on the article on Kemal Atatürk. None of the other wikis seem to have this information. Is there perhaps a tag to ask for this? Stefán Ingi 20:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added IPA: [mustafa kemal atatɯɾk] to the article. Usually, asking here does the trick, or you could try WikiProject Phonetics. — Gareth Hughes 21:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Stefán Ingi 21:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It's [atatyɾk], actually. [atatɯɾk] would be spelled Atatırk. But I don't know where stress goes. Lexical words in Turkish usually have final stress, but names have their own rules of stress placement that I've never fully understood. User:Angr 22:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

June 25

Opposite of "Euphemism"

Is there a word that means just the opposite of euphemism. To call something good with a rather bad word?

What about dysphemism? Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 12:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Dysphemism is a good answer. It's actually the opposite of a euphemism in the sense that rather than taking a bad thing and making it sound better, it takes a something that might be considered somewhat bad and makes it sound much, much worse. An example would be calling a TV an "idiot box", or a cigar a "cancer stick". That may be what you're looking for, but if you're looking for the term for referring to a truly good thing in a rather terrible way, you might be referring to sarcasm as in: "Oh I'm such a terrible person, I actually had the nerve to actually try to help someone by answering their question at the RefDesk at Wikipedia when they were no longer in need of an answer. I deserve to be shot." Loomis 21:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Another antonym would be "cacophemism." Brian G. Crawford 06:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Dysphemism doesn't quite look like an opposite of euphemism. Actually, one of the examples in the article, 'Pushing up daisies' for 'being dead' sounds more like a euphemism. As I get it, a dysphemism makes something bad worse, but the question is about a normally 'bad' word being used in positive sense. Such as the word 'bad' itself, as used by Michael Jackson - "who's bad?". Or when someone is pleasantly surprised they might say "Fuckin' hell, that's brilliant!". Both the words 'hell' ("hell yeah") and 'fuck' are occasionally used in a positive sense, though with fuck is a bit complicated because it basically refers to something very positive. Puritanism then made it into something negative, which then changed to a strong expression for emotion in general, which then came to be used in a positive sense on some occasions. Weird.

I don't know what this phenomenon would be called, though. DirkvdM 12:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Tsk, tsk. Calling somthing weird is very derogatory. I would think that you having an intersest in language WOULD NOT be so low class. Tsk, tsk.

199.126.157.249 21:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

major revisions complete

The Half-life computation article has undergone substantial revision which has hopefully addressed everyone's concerns. If you have any further comments after looking at the article again, please list the items you do not like, make whatever comment you have and please be specific and allow time for further revision. If there is any reason I can not comply with your wishes then I will let you know the reason why. ...IMHO (Talk) 12:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks like it's already been deleted, and this is the wrong place anyway. Try Wikipedia:Deletion review. —Keenan Pepper 18:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not post the same more than twice. (I you had posted only twice, my advice would be diferent). --DLL 18:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like IMHO put this on all five reference desks. Not likely to win friends. —Keenan Pepper 19:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Disturbing Trend

I have been a teacher for over 30 years. In the last 15 years I have noticed that so many students simply don't use the contraction "you're". They write "Your my best friend" as well as "There is your dog." Sometimes I have corrected papers to change the possessive pronoun to the contraction, and they have crossed out the correction and changed it back! They seem not to know, and not to care to know. Did students always display such arrogance? What has caused this degradation of our language in the last few years? 66.213.33.2 18:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all, it's not a degradation of language, it's a spelling mistake. Spelling has nothing to do with language. Secondly, I suspect this spelling mistake has been around for as long as the two words have been pronounced the same. User:Angr 18:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think perhaps you're noticing it more; I observe intelligent people in their 40s making the same mistake. I may be oversimplifying, but as a teacher can't you just devote a minute or two of your lessons to teaching this point? Or if it's some other teacher's purview, can't you discuss it with that person? It would certainly be good if people emerging from the educational system could spell more accurately. Notinasnaid 18:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Nothing has caused the degradation of language in the last few years. Degradation (as you put it) is simply one way of looking at the constant change of language. Look back in history and you will discover that people have complained about the way youth (in particular) destroy, main and otherwise mangle language ever since language developed. Language changes over time and the forces that dominate this change often appear, with the shallow viewpoint of the present, to be destructive. However I assure you that over time language will not devolve into grunts, however annoying your students may be. On the other hand, however, I agree that this is very annoying. Perhaps spend some time explaining to your students how the words should be used. While we're on the subject of pedantry, the word 'so' in your second sentence was unnecessary, your second example ("There is your dog") is perfectly correct (although you may have been using it as contrast), your fifth sentence lacks an object, and your sixth sentence would, in more natural English, be "Have students always displayed such arrogance?". Daniel (‽) 18:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Angr (well, except that I wouldn't say spelling has "nothing" to do with language--but it's certainly more of an epiphenomenon than any kind of core aspect of it). If the claim was that students "don't know" it--i.e., theyhave lost the distinction between the possessive and "you are", it would be a (fairly amazing) fact about language change. But it's much more likely thay just are spelling by ear and haven't learned the complxities well. Perhaps this is an indication of post-literacy more than anything. Adults over 40 making this mistake--I do it once in a while--I think indicates sloppiness and inattention more than anything else. A typo, in other words, which is even less significant that a misspelling.

Why would spelling have anything to do with language? Sure, spelling can be a part of language use (namely accurately representing the sounds in written form), but language has existed and continues to exist without regard to spelling (illiteracy). Would you want to say that an illerate person has less language proficiency than someone who is literate? If you answer yes, then what about languages that do have a written script? I would agree that there are obvious advantages to having a written script, but I wouldn't necessarily say that someone is at a loss from not knowing how to spell (language does what it needs to do, and if spelling isn't needed then language will not have it).--69.171.123.148 21:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

As for arrogance--yes, students have always displayed such arrogance. :) · rodii · 19:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

In the past years students have been having more and more access to a certain reading material that's not always completely perfect grammar, vocabulary and spelling-wise: the Internet. In the past, what your students (anyone) read came from books, newspapers or media where some care was taken about this matter. Now the Internet has become a huge source of reading material, and the language there is not as carefully constructed - at least in some places (forum sites, chat rooms, not to mention sms language...). That's why spelling mistakes spread so widely and are seen as normal, since they're written all over the place. --RiseRover|^talk 20:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Though you're probably largely right, this has happenend before, in the Netherlands at least. As a kid (in the 1970's) I got very annoyed at the popularised use of language by newsreaders, not speaking proper Dutch. I can imagine the BBC would have stuck to proper English at that time, but they are now also popularising their use of language. DirkvdM 11:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Everyone has feelings, and anecdotes, about how the world or some aspect of it is going to hell, and language angst seems to be one of the more popular manifestations of this phenomenon. The adjective "proper" seems to be one way of expressing the idea, or prejudice, that one variety of a language is somehow more privileged than the others. But how? Is it because that's the way your grandma or your English teacher spoke, or the soi-disant educated classes speak or spoke, or the privileged classes, or people like you, or people with your political leanings, or what? "Proper" is a ubiquitous prejudice with nothing factual to back it up. If you try to observe language without that particular fixation, what you see is variation, change and socially meaningful norms; I submit that's a more neutral and empirical way to approach the subject than decrying change and identifying "disturbing" trends. · rodii · 13:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose by 'proper' I mean 'standardised' (ah, is that with an 's' or a 'z' (and is a 'z' pronounced 'zet' or 'zee'?)). I don't care much which rules are used as long as they're consistent and everyone uses the same rules. Now with EE/AE the latter is a problem, but within one set of rules one should follow those rules. That said, one should also make an effort to understand those who don't follow them. Although that can be problem when some one asks about why lines have mains and later it turns out that he meant why lions have mains manes. I'm not making this up - this was a question at the science ref desk today. He had us thinking he was talking about electricity. :) DirkvdM 16:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

So the lions have electricity in their dens? Or was the person asking why lions have manes? Philbert^2.71828 00:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops, now that was a silly mistake .... :) DirkvdM 05:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Come on how is that disturbing its just a spelling mistake, your worring to much.

No offence, but as a teacher, isn't it your failing if they do not understand these things. Have you ever tried teaching them? or have you just told them what is wrong, and expected them to understand. Philc _T^E_C^I 15:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What do call a person who sets a bounty on something?

A person who attempts to claim the bounty is a bounty hunter, but what do you call the guy who creates the bounty in the first place? A bounty setter? I'm just wondering if there is a name for the concept already. 152.3.84.131 20:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of a more formal name, but there may be one. I am not quite certain. --Proficient 20:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I cannot think of an exact word either. However, some less precise terms that are sometimes used are; patron, guarantor, sponsor or financier. Hope this helps. Road Wizard 01:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well...I think the bounty is set pretty automatically; the bounty hunter gets a percentage of the money the bail bondsman gets returned from the courts when the fugitive is brought in. (And they're often the same person, anyway.) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Rabelais

What does "fay ce que vouldras" mean, and what does it have to do with Rabelais? (See Italian literature#The Renaissance.) zafiroblue05 | Talk 21:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

That'd be Fais ce que voudras, French for Do what you want. It's the rule of the Abbey of Theleme, see Rabelais#Rabelais and Thelema--RiseRover|^talk 22:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Your spelling, though (i.e., fay ce que vouldras) was okay; that's how it was spelled in the slightly less orthographically rigid French of Rabelais' time. —Saposcat 11:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

True, but it's more than just orthography. The /l/ in vouldras was still pronounced. The history of French is mainly one of consonant loss, vowel merger and syncope, as in Latin supercilium eventually turning into French sourcil. · rodii · 13:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Very true remarks ; they apply to plenty of languages and the opposite, adjoining consonants, is also true. E.g. in French : litterature, voudras (latin litera, volire ?) ; English litter (F. litière)).--DLL 17:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

June 26

ak u menically

Dear Wikipedia,

I was watching the movie "Pirates of the Caribean" and the work came up "acumencally" (sp?) I have been searching to find what this word might mean or relate to.

Thank you.

Presumably they were saying "ecumenically", but I have to say ecumenism doesn't seem like a fruitful topic for a pirate movie.--Pharos 06:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Pharos presumes correctly. The quote containing the word is "I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically." [16]--Melburnian 06:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Origin of s-plural

I'm wondering if the addition of 's' to singular nouns to form plurals -- used in English, Spanish, and French, and probably other languages -- has a known origin whence it spread to those languages, or if it was independently developed by each? It doesn't come from the Germanic or Latin roots of those languages. Kundor 17:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"S" was a frequently-occuring element of Indo-European plural case endings, so in that sense you could say that there's some overall general commonality of origin (though "s" did not always or only occur in plural case endings). The French and Spanish cases derive derectly from the Latin accusative plural endings (see Latin_declension). AnonMoos 19:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed. French and Spanish plurals came from Latin accusative plurals, most of which simply add s, while Italian plurals came from Latin nominative plurals, so they don't add s, but instead change vowels (a -> e, o -> i). I want to say Germanic languages usually add n instead, but I'm not sure... —Keenan Pepper 19:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It's in the sci.lang FAQ. Why do both English and French have plurals in -s? --Kjoonlee 01:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

In Dutch, plurals usually end in -en, sometimes in -s. Going through some plurals for things around me, I'd say especially borrowed words get the -s ending (computers, niveaus). But there are some exceptions, like 'hamers' (hammers), which I don't think comes from English (more probably a common origin - Danish?). One reason might be that verbs also end in -en, so 'hameren' means 'hammering', and that would be confusing. But another one is 'deksels' (lids, covers). That seems like a very Germanic word to me and there is no verb 'dekselen'. But by far most end in -en, though. DirkvdM 06:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

See also Proto-Germanic_language#Nouns - AnonMoos 17:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Root, root, root, for the home team. If they, don't win it's a shame...

Up here in North America, we usually "root" for our home team, meaning that's the teaming we're "pulling for" or "favouring to win". With the world cup and all, would it be safe to say in Australia that Australian's are "rooting" for the Australian football/soccer team to win, or is it too close to that other meaning to be said with a straight face? (Or in mixed company without blushing?) Loomis 19:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

We say supporting, whats the other meaning of rooting? Philc _T^E_C^I 19:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm told "root" is in use in Australia as a synonym for to do the nasty. I assume that most Australians would be somewhat forgiving to my fellow North Americans who were unaware, in much the same way as when a stranger once asked an acquaintance in a British accent whether he could "bum a fag". Good question, though. --ByeByeBaby 20:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is the meaning "to insert a rotating probe into a pipe to grind up any roots that have grown into the line", as used in the name Roto Rooter, I suppose that could easily be extended to have a sexual meaning. StuRat 21:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course, "pulling" for a side could also be interpreted another way, too. JackofOz 00:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Lightbulb

How many linguists does it take to change a lightbulb? --Dweller 20:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

This question has been posted on all reference desks (except /M) --hydnjo talk 20:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want to "change" (translate) it into every known language, it would take quite a few. StuRat 21:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It's official. This board has the least sense of humour. Even the mathematicians pointed me at the lightbulb joke article which, in its own way, is kind of almost funny. Fyi, the scientists won. --Dweller 06:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Q: How many lightbulb jokes does it take to get hydnjo into vandal patrol mode?
A: One *blush*, only one! --hydnjo talk 13:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I know of two linguist lightbulb jokes, but in each the question is not "how many" but simply "how":

1. How does a phonologist change a lightbulb?

   He puts the bulb on the floor underneath the socket and waits for the tiers to conflate on the next cycle.

2. How does a syntactician change a lightbulb?

   He throws 100 lbs of fish out of a helicopter over Wyoming, and the rest follows from independent principles.

User:Angr 14:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Translate please

This just appeared on my wiki under the title English Language. What does is actualy say? Gerard Foley 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[Dvoxlnv, znzgvfi hovfgsh. Gsrh rh lmob gsv yvtrmmrmt lu nb nzhhrev dliw hvzixs. Blf szev 5 ovggvih — mld tl urmw gsv ivhg. Gsv urihg kvihlm gl tvg zoo gsv pvbdliwh zmw fmolxp gsv hvxivg droo drm zm Cylc® drgs z xlkb lu Gsv Wz Ermxr Xlwv™ tznv, zmw z 2P Erwvl Tznvh kzxpztv...] Sviv'h z pvbdliw gl hgzig blf luu: evilxxsrl

Ru blf wlm?g zoivzwb pmld gsrh, gbkv rm blfi pvbdliwh zg gsvwzermxrxlwvtznv.xln

Mld tvg xizxprm', Hsviolxp! Nzie H.

Blfi mvcg xofv xzm yv ulfmw zg: nbglkirguizmxv.xln

welcome, amateur sleuths. this is only the beginning of my massive word search. you have 5 letters — now go find the rest. the first person to get all the keywords and unlock the secret will win an xbox® with a copy of the da vinci code™ game, and a 2k video games package...

here's a keyword to start you off: verocchio
if you don't already know this, type in your keywords at thedavincicodegame.com

now get crackin', sherlock!
marv s.

your next clue can be found at: mytopritfrance.com

· rodii · 22:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a substitution cipher (reversed alphabet). It says:

"[Welcome, amateur sleuths. This is only the beginning of my massive word search. You have 5 letters - now go find the rest. The first person to get all the keywords and unlock the secret will win an Xbox(r) with a copy of The Da Vinci Code(tm) game, and a 2K Video Games package...]

Here's a keyword to satart you off: verocchio

If you don't already know this, type in your keywords at thedavincicodegame.com

Now get crackin', Sherlock!

Marv S.

Your next clue can be found at mytopritfrance.com" 128.197.81.181 22:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

oops, we posted at about the same time 128.197.81.181 22:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much!! Gerard Foley 23:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you win the xbox? DirkvdM 06:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Split Infinitives

I would like someone to explain to me why it's regarded so terribly to split an infinitive. Split infinitives often flow so much better than attempts to avoid them. I split infinitives all the time and I think it's fine time for English purists to give it up and recognize that split infinitives are indeed a valid form of English expression. I'd be interested for any of you to intelligently inform me (lol) why split infinitives are such a no-no. I think it's finally high time for the English language to [boldly and finally] acknowledge the legitimacy of split infinitives. Any ideas? Loomis 22:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Look over split infinitive, personally, I have no objection; from skimming the article, the reason that makes the most sense is that the infinitive is a single word in most languages and should be treated as one in English, too. Emmett5 22:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The story I'd always heard was the "ancient Greek and Latin as ideal languages" reason described in split infinitive. Most people (including most grammarians) don't care any more, but there'll always be some prescriptivists who insist against all reasoning. Ziggurat 22:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

That article is really good. No wonder it's an FA, I guess. Anyway, I'd have to agree that common sense is more important than following a set rule - that example given really can't be written any better than with the split. As a controversial rule, it's probably one of the less followed (compared to avoiding singular they, for example), mostly cause when you say "split infinitive", people give you that blank "you're one of those sorts of people" look. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 22:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I would give just such a look. Anyone complaining about not following such a silly rule is more concerned with showing everyone how smart they are than in communicating clearly, IMHO. StuRat 00:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What "example" in the article are you all talking about? The first one from Star Trek "to boldly go"? I'm a bit confused as to what part of the article you all think I should give a second look. Also, I'm sure that a few centuries ago, the same controversy arose over the dropping of all of those archaic forms of the second person singular pronoun. I can just see the "purists" insisting to no end: "It's thou dammit! Not you! Thankfully, common sense prevailed and all those unnecessary pronouns were finally dropped from the language. Loomis 11:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with split infinitives. I mean, if one can't split infinitives why is it acceptable to split the preposition from a verb? Like to turn off. One does not say *turn off it but turn it off. I mean, it is a unit right? This is a one-word verb in languages like Spanish and French, where it's apagar and éteindre respectively. --Chris S. 02:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. JackofOz 05:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"Bloody brilliant"

I'd like to get some British opinions on this. I read some comments on the CBBC Newsround website about the Queen's birthay party last Sunday and one of them complained about the boy in Mary Poppins' Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious song who supposedly sweared when calling her (Poppins) "bloody brilliant" and said that since it was performed in front of the queen the song should've been changed. IIRC, this phrase also appeared in the first Harry Potter film. If this is so objectionable, surely it would've been cut. Is "bloody" considered swearing in general to begin with? - Mgm|^(talk) 22:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

See Bloody. It is considered very very mild swearing in some circles. Ziggurat 22:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably like the American "Frickin'".--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It is very mild. I expect also they objected because it was a child swearing, which they are not supposed to do LOL. The traditional get-out was to hastily switch to "blooming" instead mid-word, as with "sugar", "fudge", etc. Jameswilson 23:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

To have an article on bloody and not mention George Bernard Shaw Iis a bit bloody stupid. The word caused a stir when used on stage in his play Pygmalion (play) but that was over 90 years ago. MeltBanana 02:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Would that line have caused the same furore today? Not bloody likely! FWIW, there has been a recent kerfuffle in the media in several countries (including the UK and Canada, IIRC) about an "Visit Australia" promotional advertisement with the tag line "So where the bloody hell are you?" Grutness...wha? 03:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That's probably more due to the word hell than anything else. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it's actually the word "bloody". This article by Michael Quinion discusses the issue in some detail. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Semi D

I saw in a ad for a house to share (in Ireland) this text : "3Bed Semi-D" . I am French and I wonder what "semi D" is? Can you help ?? Thank you very much.--Sebb-fr 22:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

My amaetuer opinion guesses it means sem-decent. But it could mean more. It appears to be a common phrase. Yanksox ^(talk) 22:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I assume it means Semi-detached. Ziggurat 22:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, semi-detached is correct. The other options are detached and terraced. Jameswilson 23:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is semi-detached. Thanky you very much. I will create a redirect:-) --Sebb-fr 10:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

June 27

Hebrew infinitive absolute

What is the infinitive absolute used for in Hebrew other than certainty (e.g. Mot yamut = he will certainly die)? Mo-Al 02:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Please clarify... you cite Hebrew, implying Ivrit (modern Hebrew) but (and I'm no specialist)your example sounds like Classical Hebrew to me. --Dweller 06:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Either way - I have only seen it used in classical Hebrew though, but I don't know if it's used in Moder Hebrew or not. Mo-Al 15:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

In Class. Hebrew (and again, I'm no expert) it can also be used as an imperative "he MUST surely die", with slight vowel fluctuation to "mot yoomat". --Dweller 15:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Czech grammar issues

Hi, I have a few questions I haven't been able to answer myself.

1. Does the subject of the verb být, "to be", take the nominative or accusative case?
2. Are collective nouns, such as "the Simpsons" or "the Germans", treated as simple plurals or as some sort of singular? What kind of gender do they take?

Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 04:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm breaking my own rule here and commenting on a matter I have no specific knowledge of. But if I can use the general principle that applies in all languages I've ever studied, the subject of any verb is ipso facto nominative (I wish, you spoke, he walked, she will read, they were kissing, etc). However, you may have meant to ask about the case of the object of the verb "to be". Usually it is nominative because "to be", unlike most other verbs, equates two things (rather than having one thing doing something to another thing, which is where the accusative comes in). But I can't speak about Czech specifically. JackofOz 05:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right. It works the same way in German. But I'm not sure about anything in Slavic languages. I've never studied a heavily inflected language and Czech is particularly irregular. Bhumiya (said/done) 05:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, Czech and Russian are related languages. Russian rarely uses its verb "to be" (in the present tense), but when it is used the subject is naturally nominative. Czech may be different, but I'd be very surprised. JackofOz 07:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, in that case, it's almost certainly as you suggested. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

IANA native Czech speaker, but JackofOz is right. All Czech nouns use the nominative for the singular (except when the genitive is being used due to the "5 or more" rule). Být is unique in that its object also usually takes the nominative. The exception is the set-up of Být + instrumental, which is roughly equivalent to the English verb "become." (Bush byl presidentem v 2001.)

Nouns like Simpsonovi take plural verbs. (Simpsonovi žijou v Springfieldu.) -- Mwalcoff 04:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, silly me. Russian has a similar rule about numerals greater than 4 taking the genitive case. So, the subject of a verb is not necessarily nominative - just almost all the time. In the Russian equivalent of "The bananas were on the table", the subject bananas is nominative, but in "Five bananas were on the table", five is nominative (but undeclined) and bananas is genitive. JackofOz 09:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. Thanks for the help! Bhumiya (said/done) 02:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Origins of American English

Does anyone know how and where exactly the American accent originated? I have a theory that it might have started when the Native Americans tried to speak English and they sounded like Americans today sound.-------Seclipse21 04:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Accents tend to change for a number of reasons, but generally when two populations are split geographically they 'evolve' in a different direction naturally (it's theorized that this is how new languages come about in the first place - see Language change) as a result of many social processes. In the case of the United States, speakers of Dutch, French, German, Spanish, Swedish, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Scottish Gaelic, and Finnish were also prominent in earlier times, and no doubt all of them contributed to the unique accumulation that is American English. Ziggurat 04:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thank you very much, Ziggurat.-----Seclipse21 04:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Nevertheless, If you compare "General American" and "Received Pronunciation", General American's probably closer to Victorian English. --Kjoonlee 05:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If not Victorian English, then certainly Elizabethan English. In many ways, American English is more phonologically conservative, preserving rhoticity and not participating in the trap-bath split. A few hundred years ago, English English sounded much more like American English. Bhumiya (said/done) 05:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Also cause for some joking; "I say tomato, you say tomato, I say palmtree, you say palmtree". :) DirkvdM 06:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to be careful about claims of American or any variety sounding "more like" Elizabethan or 19th century English. While some varieties have more conservative tendencies than others, this is just not enough uniformity in change in English to make such claims.

First, there is arguably more diversity within either British and American English than there is between the standard varieties of either. In other words White Texas vernacular is probably different in more ways from White New York vernacular than upper middle class English is in London and New York. The variation in Britain is probably even more profound, and in the US if non-White racial dialects are considered (as they should be), there is even greater diversity in America.

Second, while US English is mostly conservative in /r/ maintenance and lack of a short a split, it also has innovations such as the caught/cot merger. There are also very widespread but still regional innovations such as the Nothern cities vowel shift and the southern shift.

Third, there are features such as the southern shift, which afffect regions in the US and Britain, and also southern hemisphere English.

It is better to say that both varieties are historical and linguistic developments from a common source. BTW, before asking questions here, it would be a good idea to check out American_english mnewmanqc

The Story of English has a chapter on American English. It's also available as a video documentary. --Kjoonlee 09:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Another question one can ask is "how do you know?" Are there any records of how English was pronounced in Victorian or Elisabethan times? Did phonetic writing exist then? And if so, how do we know how to pronounce that if it's pronunciation was defined by pronunciations of the time? A bit of a vicious circle and I don't see a way out. One of those things we have to accept we can never know? DirkvdM 11:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You can ask the same question about how Greek, Latin or Sanskrit was pronounced, and the answer is, yes, we have detailed descriptions of how they were pronounced (although not IPA, of course, and sometimes there is a lot of scholarly debate about how those descriptions should be interpreted). · rodii · 12:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

To summarize What is known about prehistoric language?: A lot. The comparative method works well. --Kjoonlee 14:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The comparative method tells us very little about "how languages were pronounced," though. It works at the phonological level, and the reconstructed proto-phonemes are abstractions phonetically. See Glottalic theory for an example of controversy over the most basic, well-established set of correspondences we have, the Indo-European stops; the standard model posits a whole different set of proto-sounds from the glottalic model. We're dependent on Panini, Varro et al. for descriptions of how those segments were actually pronounced, in terms of positions of articulators in the vocal tract. We also have evidence from various kinds of pronunciation-related phenomena, including rhymes (two words that rhyme can be considered to have certain similarities in sound), prosody (which allow us to discern stress and vowel-length patterns), speech games like Pig Latin, and so on. It's a tricky area. If your interested in the Classical issues, W. Sidney Allen's Vox Latina and Vox Graeca are standard references. I don't know what the equivalents are for the history of English. (And just to add a small voice of caution on the comparative method in general, try reconstructing Latin from the Romance languages without using what we know of Latin; it simply can't be done. The comparative method is no doubt valid, but it is limited in what we can discern from it.) · rodii · 15:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

To go back to the original question, I have never heard anyone make the claim that Native languages were a significant influence on the pronunciation of American English. English borrowed words from Native languages, of course, but that's about the exttent of the influence as far as I know. · rodii · 15:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

We know that rhoticity in British English had already disappeared by the time "Juggernaut" entered the english language. This is because it comes from the indian word jagannāth, where the first two "a's" in the indian word are pronounced like the "u" in but. So when it was transliterated in Britian, an "er" was written in place of the "a" because by that time the "er" sound had come to sound like "uh" in British English. "Er" became the british equivalent to the American "uh," they both sound like əː.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 15:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

re: the role of Native Americans. One interesting difference between the (future) USA and Brazil is that the Brazilian Indians spoke many languages but had a lingua franca that they used when speaking to members of other tribes (Old Tupi). Thus the early Portuguese settlers, although they regarded the Indians as primitive, all ended up learning Old Tupi too for convenience. Although Tupi was suppressed two or three hundred years later in favour of Portuguese, that language did have the chance to influence Portuguese as spoken in Brazil.

But as far as I know the same thing didnt happen in North America. There wasnt one convenient pre-existing Indian language that served as the general language of all the tribes for trading purposes, etc. So English-speakers never had any economic incentive to get to know the Indian languages. Jameswilson 23:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Webster made up American English. -- Миборовский 21:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Albion's Seed : Four British Folkways in America by David Hackett Fischer discusses how four regional accents in America map to different regions in the UK where those regions' settlers originated. Rmhermen 18:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

A US place-name

I listened to a radio show where I heard a US place-name, pronounced somewhat like /ˌp(ə)ˈkipsiː/. It's probably somewhere along the East Coast or nearby. What could it be? Thanks in advance. –Mysid^(t) 07:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean Poughkeepsie ? Lectonar 07:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Thank you very much. –Mysid^(t) 07:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Pixellized movable type

I suppose this question concerns language. It could just as easily fit in the science or humanities reference desks. I was reading an article about Chinese printing which mentioned that Hanzi were not well-suited to movable type printing since hundreds of characters had to be carved. It struck me that the Chinese might have expedited the process by fashioning their type using a pixel-based system. When precisely was the principle of the pixel invented? Is there any evidence that they existed in the pre-electronic age? Bhumiya (said/done) 07:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I would think that in those days, using a pixel-based system without computers would essentially have been the same as copying the books by hand. – The word pixel, though not the concept of picture element, was invented by Frederic C. Billingsley in 1965. –Mysid^(t) 08:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Mosaic tiles could be described as pixels. —da Pete (ばか) 08:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Would knitting/crocheting patterns count as well? --Kjoonlee 09:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

pointillism? DirkvdM 11:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I wonder what the heck a "printing pixel" would really have been -- building up each separate character individually from dozens of tiny little metal squares would certainly not offer the quickness and convenience of Gutenberg-style moveable metal type, and the nature of Chinese characters is such that they generally cannot be constructed out of a small number of square dots while preserving any degree of faithfulness to correct shape, and aesthetic appeal. But anyway, you can look up Jacquard looms (which were invented after Gutenberg, though). AnonMoos

Well, I hadn't thought it through very well. I just thought that the principle might be useful in some way. Perhaps a bunch of needles of varying length could be assembled into a punch for imprinting characters into wood. It seems to me that this would be faster than hand-carving every piece of type. Keep in mind that Chinese characters can be represented fairly well on a computer, even at a somewhat low resolution. But that's all speculation. As far as ancient pixels, I hadn't thought about weaving. Certainly, many tapestries used the very same principle to create images. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

English words translated into Cantonese characters

I have a good friend whose birth name, in Cantonese, translates into "Ling Bird" in English. How would the name Ling Bird be written, using Cantonese characters and translation? Thanks, Leebo.

whyever

I would like to enter this word "whyever" into--24.56.224.140 17:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC) the encyclopedia. How do I go about entering a new word?

• You don't. Simple definitions of words belong at Wiktionary, a sister project of Wikipedia. Of course, neologisms are generally frowned on. Deltabeignet 18:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Code

What could this mean?

    Ecgb b bie be ebeb bml.

If someone can't break it, can they direct me to a code breaker? Thanks. schyler 17:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I'm pretty sure 'b' is 'a'. Unfortunately, it's not a simple Caesar cipher, unless the first word is 'dbfa'. Deltabeignet 18:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That would mane the second and third words "a a..", which is ungrammatical - it would be "an a..". Also, since it would make b=m (the only possible letter that would work with both be and ebeb), it looks like either gibberish or something not in English. Grutness...wha? 10:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It is what I got from the side of the Covenant ship in the Halo 3 trailer written in Braille. I changed the letters into their respective "Covenant Letters" from the 7th letter of the Conversations of the Universe booklet by changing each letter from the above "code." The letter looks somewhat like english letters so each letter in the "code" that corresponds with the letter it should be (in English). I changed it to that.

    lOgB B Bpl Bl lBlB BRl

Could it make any more sense?schyler 18:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Any chance you could show us the exact Braille characters? In higher levels of Braille, characters can stand for letter combinations as well as individual letters, depending on context. — Michael J 20:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Japanese single-character country abbreviations

Is there a list somewhere of the single-character country abbreviations used in Japanese? 日 for Japan, 独 for Germany, 仏 for France, etc. I've had a look around Wikipedia and can't find one, but feel sure there must be one somewhere.

Thanks in advance! --Auximines 19:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I have had a look and can't find one either. However, my Kanji dictionary has an incomplete list so I can make a start on a new page sometime in the next 24 hours. If you need to know the specific character for a country before that, let me know and I'll give it to you if I have it. Road Wizard 23:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that's great! --Auximines 07:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I am currently working on the text for the article, but I can't think of an appropriate name for it. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks. Road Wizard 15:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of anything better than "country abbreviations in Japanese". What's more important is which pages should link to it. --Auximines 16:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Dutch family names

I am writing to a Professor Theo van Rijn. I don't know him personally, so is it right that I write Dear Professor Van Rijn with a capital V? — Gareth Hughes 20:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed it is. -- Ec5618 20:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. That's quick and to the point. I'll get on with my letter... — Gareth Hughes 20:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The rule is that prefixes like van and den have to be capitalised when not preceded by the person's first name or initials. --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 21:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a related question regarding "de". I know someone who is called "Foo de Bar". He always prefers Mr de Bar but not Mr De Bar. Apparently, most other Mr Xxx de Yyy use Mr De Yyy with a capital D. How much of this is down to convention and how much personal choice? --Chan Tai Man 08:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, it only applies to the Dutch language, and perhaps only in the Netherlands. In Flanders it might be different.

Such may be the official rules, but I, for example don't follow it. I spell my last name 'van der Made' with a small 'v'. I only learned about this rule when I started editing the van (Dutch) article, which gives some more insight into this. DirkvdM 08:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

That could be, but when writing a letter in Dutch to someone in the Netherlands, it is generally considered appropriate to do so. Not following this rule might leave the impression of not knowing the spelling rules. --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 10:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Very yes-or-no question

Is "very yes" a grammatically valid construction? Seahen 00:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Very no. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• The reason is that "yes" is an absolute, so you can't have more or less of a yes. (The phrase "a more perfect union" is grammatically flawed for the same reason.) Instead, try "absolutely yes", which means "I am absolutely sure the answer is yes". StuRat 01:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not correct, but I don't even think it has much of a popular usage as opposed to the "a more perfect union." --Proficient 02:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

StuRat's reason is incorrect. The reason "very yes" is grammatically wrong is that "yes" isn't an adjective or an adverb, the only two parts of speech that can be modified by "very". As for "a more perfect union", it's perfectly grammatical, because saying "A is more X than B" doesn't have to mean "B is X, and A is even more so than B"; it can also mean "neither A nor B is X, but A is closer to being X than B is". This is shown by such statements as "Well, it isn't good, but it's better" meaning it's better (closer to being good) than it used to be, but it still hasn't reached a level I'd call "good". "In order to form a more perfect union" means the union wasn't perfect before, and it still won't be perfect after, but it will be closer to perfect. User:Angr 08:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. "To form a better union" or "a union more closely approaching perfection" or "a perfect union" would all have been correct (although the last one is clearly impossible). To say you want to form a "more perfect union" says that it was perfect, and now it's "more perfect", which makes no sense. There aren't multiple levels of perfection, but only one. StuRat 02:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course there's only one level of perfection, I never denied that. The point is that "more perfect" is simply shorthand for "more nearly perfect" or "better approaching perfection". I don't think the framers of the Constitution intended to suggest that the Union was perfect either before or after, and I don't think "more perfect" is an ungrammatical way of expressing that. User:Angr 14:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of what they were trying to say, but they didn't say it correctly, any more than I could say I want to lose weight with "I want to make my weight more zero" or I could say I want to increase the injuries to a person by making them "more dead". StuRat 18:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I bet I'm not the only RD/L regular who winces every thime someone says "very unique", either... Grutness...wha? 10:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

No, that might be entirely peculiar to you. Black Carrot 15:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm with Grutness on this one, so he's not unique in this respect (although he's still a Kiwi, which makes him pretty peculiar ...). There are no degrees of uniqueness. Either there is only one thing, or there is more than one. Unique applies only to the first case, and qualifiers such as "more", "most", "very", "extremely" etc have no meaning. If you mean "very unusual" or whatever, then say that, but don't morph it into the absurd "very unique". JackofOz 03:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

And you can't be "very eunuch" either. You are or you aren't, no in-betweens, :-) StuRat 15:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it

French uses "n'est-ce pas" to cover a wide variety of situations. I guess the sense of it is: "Is what I just said not the case". English has no such feature; you have to say "didn't she", "wouldn't they", "isn't it", "haven't I", "won't he", "couldn't you", "shouldn't we" etc, depending on the preceding words. There are probably many dozens of possible combinations. People from certain non-English speaking backgrounds (NESB) frequently say "isn't it" in all these situations, which can lead to humorous outcomes - "But you still love me ... isn't it?", Olga pleaded.

• What is this grammatical construction called?
• Is English the only major language where you can't use the same wording in different situations, à la "n'est-ce pas"? If so, why do we make it so hard for ourselves?
• Why do NESB people who have otherwise mastered English seem to find this feature of English a stumbling block? Is it because it is needlessly complex? JackofOz 04:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't help with the second two questions, but I can answer the first: they're called tag questions. That article does note that English is "untypically complex", but that doesn't go anywhere as to whether it's the only such language, or why...—Zero Gravitas 04:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

English isn't a language where you can't use the same wording in different situations. You know that, right? ;) --Kjoonlee 04:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't some form of British English use "isn't it" in this way? But pronounced and often spelled "innit"? As in "he's a right git, innit" (I don't know where I heard that but, not being British, it makes me laugh everytime). Adam Bishop 06:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Heh. The tag question article mentions it's a part of the London dialect, but I'd never heard that one despite having learned my English in Greater London. Quite fascinating, eh? --Kjoonlee 06:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, 'innit' is I think originally Cockney, though now widespread. The Welsh and an English teacher I once knew from Hong Kong both use the full form: "He's a right git, isn't it?". I take that to mean "isn't it the case that...", but I may be over-rationalising. Henry^Flower 06:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not too widespread, at least in Northern England. The only time I ever hear it is when there is a television programme set in London, or an American is doing an over-the-top Cockney impression. Road Wizard 06:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)*

I thought it had an Asian origin as I first heard it from Asian teens--hotclaws**==(81.136.162.4 06:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC))

I'd say "innit" is a stereotypically chav phrase, as well as being stereotypically Cockney. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 21:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It makes me laugh every time as well, and I am British. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 21:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

So in which languages would you be forbidden from using the same wording for tag questions? There might be some examples, no? ;) --Kjoonlee 07:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

(1) As far as I know, "isn't it" is a general tag in Indian English (spoken by South Asians in general). I know I've read this in some linguistic work or other, and it's been personally confirmed for me by a friend from Sri Lanka who regularly says things like "You're coming to church on Sunday, isn't it?" (2) Irish forms tag questions the same way English does, i.e. the form of the tag depends on the form of the statement they follow. The difference is that Irish tag questions (like Irish answers to questions) drop the subject: Tá tú ag teacht, nach bhfuil? ("You're coming, aren't?"). I think Welsh is the same, though I'm not 100% sure. Whether English does this because the Celtic languages do, or whether the Celtic languages do this because English does, or whether it's just a coincidence, I don't know. User:Angr 08:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "isn't it" is widely (ab?)used in Indian English in this sense. I think it's because in Indian languages we use pronoun-independent "correct?", "right?", "isn't?" etc., instead of "didn't she?" etc., -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

My question was actually prompted by noticing how my Sri Lankan-born partner speaks. And I've previously noted Indian people (including Fijian Indians) saying "isn't it", and also some Europeans. JackofOz 12:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"..., is it?" is common in Singlish; its similarity with "n'est-ce pas?" is noted in the article. --Vsion 03:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what the big problem is. It may sound "ethnic", but the simple word "no?" with the question mark would seem to cover all situtaions where the French "n'est-ce pas" would do. I've even adopted it in my general speach.

I'm right, no?

You agree with me, no?

Paris is the capital of France, no?

This dish is delicious, no?

That's one beautiful car, no?

etc...Loomis 01:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a variation from the standard English construction, no? Nothing wrong with that, and it's a valid solution as far as I'm concerned. This topic was how a lot of "ethnics" still use "isn't it" inappropriately. JackofOz 07:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

June 28

Same word, different meaning, ¡en español!

What is the Spanish word for finally, as in "at last!" I know the word is finalmente, but I have a feeling that is for an order of events and my dictionary doesn't specify. Could someone help? Thanks. schyler 12:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the expression you're looking for is "¡por fin!" Also, "¡al fin!" --RiseRover|^talk 15:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Finalamente translates better as "finally" than "at last". Emmett5 19:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Por fin is the best choice for an interjection. - Draeco 04:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Creek word for Fear

Could you please give the Creek word for FEAR Thank you

Maybe those noble people had none. --DLL 21:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Amazon has a Creek-English dictionary here, which should give the answer. I don't know if there are any free online resources that would have it or not. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 20:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Fray or Friar??

To whom it may concern: while doing some editing of the Aztec related articles within Wikipedia, I was puzzled by the term "Fray", which appeared as something of a title or descriptive term in front of several names. I have since learned that "Fray" is a Spanish term meaning "Friar". I am wondering therefore if we should not be using "Friar" instead of "Fray" in, for example, this article on Fray Juan de Torquemada. I would suggest "yes" since (a) this is the English Wikipedia and (b) the term "Friar" is understood by more average readers than is "Fray".

Thoughts anyone?? Madman 17:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Frustratingly enough, there is nothing in Wikipedia or Wiktionary addressing this use of "Fray".

• A Fray is a title for friars, but the title in English should be "Brother", not "Friar". For example Fray Luís would be Brother Luís, but only in case you really want to translate the title at all. --RiseRover|^talk 19:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as the article title goes, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Western clergy) is not very helpful, but there is a general guideline that lower-level clergy don't have their titles in the article title. That would mean the article should be called Juan de Torquemada. Since there's another Juan de Torquemada at that address, I think that the Fray is a reasonable disambiguator (love that word) and should be kept. Henry^Flower 19:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Henry. Yes, I debated exactly how to disambiguate "my" Juan de Torquemada from the other, and I decided that adding "Fray" to the title was probably the best way.

And thanks, Rover. So perhaps to make this term intelligible to the average reader, the Fray Juan de Torquemada article should start out "Fray (or Brother) Juan de Torquemada was a Franciscan friar, missionary and historian in Spanish colonial Mexico." OK?? Madman 19:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Or, "Fray (Spanish for Brother) Juan de Torquemada was a Franciscan friar, missionary and historian in Spanish colonial Mexico." --RiseRover|^talk 19:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"Val"

What does the Italian word "val" mean? I've seen it a few times, and it wasn't in any online dictionaries. I know it is in place-names fairly often (could it also mean valley?) but I saw it in the phrase "Val la pena litigare" which has me stumped. It doesn't seem to fit. Can anyone help? --Bearbear 18:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• "Val" it's the simple present, third person singular form of "valere" which means to be worth. Val la pena it's an expression that means it's worth the trouble. It's worth to litigate, would be your sentence. --RiseRover|^talk 18:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• I can't believe I didn't spot the connection with the French "valoir"! Thanks --Bearbear 09:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• But in, say, Val d'Aosta it does mean valley, or vale. · rodii · 19:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, but that's not Italian... Val comes from the local language Arpitan; in Italian it'd be Valle. --RiseRover|^talk 20:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for that--who knew? That is a terrific article--should be a featured article, in fact. · rodii · 02:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Does smoking harm Polish speakers?

hello English Wikipedia. Can you tell me what "Paleine tytoniu może uszkodzić nasienie i zmniejszać pŀodność" means, I found it on cigarettes, I assume in Polish language. Specifically, what does "zmniejszać" mean, and how do I pronounce it correctly? Looking at it as a word, I imagine it to be one of the most horrible-sounding words I've ever seen written (I don't read much Polish though, or Vogon poetry....hmmm, if anyone has a link to a text, or even better, to a soundbite, of the Polish translation of any Vogon poetry, then pray include it here). Anyway, I think I will give my pet mole rat the name "zmniejszać", should I ever get a pet mole rat. Thankyou. Unsigned comment.

"Smoking tobacco can damage sperm and reduce fertility." Zmniejszać means "to reduce". You could roughly pronounce it zmn-YAY-sha-ch. Which is hard for me to say. :o) --Cam 00:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

origin of the phrase "go soak your head"?

I've searched several sites, including Wikipedia, with no luck. I'd like to be able to answer a 13-year-old's question about the origin of this common phrase. Many thanks!

A mere 916 google results for the phrase suggest it is actually not so common. I for one had never heard it until just now. 128.197.81.181 22:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you say what country or state/county you are in? I have never heard of the phrase either, but knowing at least one location where it is used may help track the information down. Thanks. Road Wizard 23:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I haven't found a locality as yet, but the meaning of the phrase appears to be similar to Get bent. Road Wizard 23:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I have found an entry at answers.com that says the phrase originated in the first half of the 20th Century, but it doesn't specify where it came from. Road Wizard 23:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Cassell's Dictionary of Slang says is late 19th century and from the US. Sorry no other detail probably just a way to deal with hotheads [mid 17th C]. MeltBanana 00:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It might not be extremely common, but I think the majority of American English speakers would recognize it. Seems like something Archie Bunker would have said. --LarryMac 02:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Having been raised in Kentucky, I recognize the phrase though it's certainly not common. I know nothing about its origin but have heard it used like "go drown yourself" in playful banter. - Draeco 04:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps related to the Scottish "awa an' bile yer hied". Soak before boiling? Henry^Flower 17:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

My (English) mother once (c.1950) told an unwanted admirer to "go boil your head". But I reckon it sounds better in a Scots accent. --Dweller 17:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Marvin the Paranoid Android does this in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe --WhiteDragon 15:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to talk in the second person?

Obviously it's possible to speak in the first person and third person, but is it actually possible to speak in the second person in some weird way? Perhaps by having a duel personality in which you talk to yourself? --SeizureDog 01:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If nobody answers have you proved your point by talking to yourself. I expect when you realise how common it is to speak in the second person you will say to yourself "you idiot, why didn't you see that?" BTW the word idiot isn't covered by WP:NPA as this is the voice of your internal monologue. Actually maybe it is and maybe WP:NPA should be moved to Wikipedia:No interpersonal attacks. Sorry I'm going to bed now.MeltBanana 01:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia:No intrapersonal attacks??--Teutoberg 14:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose your question relates to how people sometimes refer to themselves in the third person (e.g. Dave says, "Dave's going to bed because he's tired" instead of "I'm going to bed because I'm tired.") Of course, you could always talk to yourself in a mirror and thus be referring to yourself in second person. It's less obvious when talking with others, though, since the second person can make an ambiguous reference (e.g. people may have to look at your eyes to see to whom you're directing the comment, and it would be difficult to indicate you're referring to yourself).--El aprendelenguas 02:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Only people such as Alexander Hamilton, Pushkin, Lermontov and Eugene Onegin had duel personalities.  :--) JackofOz 03:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You forgot Aaron Burr, Jack...I think you're getting lazy. Loomis 01:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You can write in the third person, as in the Choose Your Own Adventure books, and many interactive fiction games. --Cam 04:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Arrgh, I meant second, of course. --Cam 04:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

El aprendelenguas actually answers this indirectly with the sentence "Of course, you could always talk to yourself in a mirror and thus be referring to yourself in second person". We often use the second person to refer to hypothetical situations which could relate to anyone, the speaker included - a more stilted way of doing this in the third person is to use the neutral third person pronoun "one" (as in "one could write it like this if one wished"). Grutness...wha? 10:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Conversationally it's very common for people to talk about themselves in the second person, such as when they're describing their usual reaction to a certain kind of situation. For example, they might say "When someone shouts in your ear without warning, your heart beats and you get a shock and you almost shit your pants", whereas what they really meant to say was "When someone shouts in my ear without warning, my heart beats and I get a shock and I almost shit my pants". In psycho-babble I think it's called avoiding owning one's own experience. JackofOz 10:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

This sentence sounds like a typical usage of the generic you, that is to say it could apply to anybody, not just the person being talked to. --WhiteDragon 15:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Some parts of our language are so clumsy. Black Carrot 14:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

June 29

translation from english to chinese

Dear all,

I would like to translate the link of Aikido from English to Chinese. Anyone out there please teach me how to deal with the software so that I can do the translation for the benefit of all. Million thanks to all!

You could contact me at (e-mail removed, answers are posted at the desk) or (e-mail removed to prevent spam)

See : Help (left pane of every page). Then : language, translation, &c. --DLL 21:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What does this Japanese pamphlet say?

I found a potentially tasteless but mostly just confusing instructional pamphlet which appears to be written in Japanese. I see that it says "one day you'll thank us" as well as urging the user to use a non-permanent marker to draw butt-circles, but aside from that... WTF? grendel|khan 02:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks like Chinese to me. Can't read it though. --Cam 04:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the pictures are a bit of a clue... --Bearbear 09:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Cam is right: it is indeed Chinese, not Japanese. --Ptcamn 10:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) It's definitely Chinese not Japanese. other than picking out the odd character here and there (the third character in the top line is "friend", for instance), my knowledge of Chinese in not good enough to translate it, though. And this probably needed a "Not for office use" warning... Grutness...wha? 10:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's not as funny as it seems. It is really only instructional, literally. (It is Chinese, by the way)

A quick, rough translation: (largely incomplete, as most of it isn't really funny / meaningful anyways) "Enjoying your friend's asshole" (more specifically, the area between the two ass cheeks) Take a felt pen of your desired colour ... Draw two nipples on your friend's ass, making sure that it's soft and smooth ... In a thrusting motion, insert .. .. into .. .. .. Continue until 'excitement' is reached...

=/ Alex Ng 06:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

question on percentage

Hi Guys and Gals! Wikipedia defines percentage as:

"...a way of expressing a proportion, a ratio or a fraction as a whole number,.

what if a percentage is expressed in decimal form? (e.g. 2.45%)

Is there an exact term to call it? Thanks for your help.

The definition at Percentage seems odd to me because it excludes just that, whereas I've always understood (and the dictionaries I can consult seem to agree) that a percentage does not have to be an integer; I've raised the issue at Talk:Percentage. Ziggurat 02:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The article will have to be fixed up. I don't think there's a special term from 2.45%; it's just another percentage, isn't it? Melchoir 02:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I sincerely appreciate the exchange of thoughts. who would have known I can effect change in Wiki's definition. :-) how about calling it "decimal percentage" to suit my report? :-)

That's the whole point of a wiki. Anybody can initiate change, and if there's a consensus that it's a change we want, it stays changed. Until it's changed again, to something better, etc. The "whole number" thing is a complete furphy - a percentage can be an integer, a decimal, a fraction, whatever. JackofOz 03:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Bis repetita. --DLL 21:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

english to coptic

hi yes i would love the saying into coptic language only...only new at this so not sure how to respond to you directly..my user name is mioullos....thanx mia

Getting a tattoo, eh? Do you want it in English (language) and coptic script, or would you prefer it translated into a language that uses that script natively? Ziggurat 03:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that no-one is listed at Wikipedia who speaks Coptic; the language itself hasn't been spoken since the 17th century, so finding a translator is probably going to be tough! Ziggurat 03:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

thats what i thought..is there a translator table like they have for egyptian heiroglyphics?? and yes it is for a tattoo..having problems finding anyone who can write in the old scripters...

Try this page. Ziggurat 03:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you pay atention to some of the caveats and further questions raised by your previous query at Wikipedia:Reference_desk_archive/Language/June_2006#heiratic_script_converot ? AnonMoos 16:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Before getting a tattoo in a foreign language, you must see the cautionary examples on [[17]]!!--Teutoberg 10:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I would advise the questioner not to put tattoo needle to flesh until he's not only been assured by reliable people that something is corect, but he's also learned enough about the subject so that he can understand himself why it's correct. AnonMoos 16:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Barbel names in other languages

Hello, I'm currently completing an article Barbel (fish species) about those species of Barbus that are known as or fit the description 'Barbel'. Barbels are found in central Asia and Europe and also Africa. I was wondering if anyone could give a few translations of some of the native common names of these fish. It's not vital to the article but would be good.

I have links to lists to common names of three species:

[Barbus barbus] This is the barbel found in UK. Confirmation that most of these are simply variations on the term 'barber' would be appreciated. As would meanings of any other common names if possible.

[Aral barbel] Meanings of the Kazakh and possibly Farsi words if possible.

[Barbus bynni bynni] An African barbel - some of the languages used here aren't even identified, nevertheless translation of these native African terms if possible would be appreciated.

If anyone can give answers (or more info. even) that would be great.HappyVR 15:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Getting a tattoo, eh? just kidding · rodii · 01:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

(I was thinking specifically in terms of linguistic roots for the names)HappyVR 16:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Egyptian hieroglyph "K2" is supposed to be a drawing of a Barbel, but the source I'm using doesn't say what the actual ancient Egyptian word for "barbel" is.... AnonMoos 00:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Re the first one, some of the Eastern European languages refer to the River Danube (Dunarea, Dunavska).

Some refer to the colour. German Weissfisch, Romanian Alba, Bulgarian Byala all mean white.

Some refer to the habitat. The Scandinavian first syllables beginning with "f" all mean river, so does the Bulgarian Rechna, I think.

Mrena translates as barbel obviously but also "film", "pellicule" or "membrane".

Jameswilson 01:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - anyone know 'pigge' or 'parme' in German?

Funny Words In Spanish

Hi,

I'm wondering I anybody could provide me with some funny (Mildly rude) Words of phrases in Spanish?

Many Thanks

Me cago en los veinticuatro cojones des los apostoles de Jesus! David Sneek 18:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit more than mildly rude. In other words, I love it. :) DirkvdM 19:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard nalgas before? What does that mean? Pacific Coast Highway ^{(blah • not even doom music)} 18:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you telling us or asking us you've heard it before? Anyway, it means 'buttocks'. DirkvdM 19:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean Spanish words that sound funny to Spanish speakers or English speakers ? StuRat 19:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Words that are funny to english speakers mainly, but spanish humour would also go down well.

I have heard that "bicho malo" may or may not be vulgar, depending on the country.--Teutoberg 08:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

For the very offensive and later euphemisms, I remember being told by a Spanish girl that "Me cago en Dios" is converted to "Me cago en diez", which of course elicits the response, "Me cago en veinte, qué es más potente!" (Sorry if my accent marks are off!!)--Teutoberg 08:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It is worth noting that sometimes 'mildly rude' does not translate - especially in some Spanish speaking cultures, any insult at all (no matter how humorous) is liable to cause a fist-fight. Be cautious when using things which are 'mild' in literal translation — they may be highly offensive in another language and culture! Nimur 20:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Word for hair tie

Hi, what do you call that thing which women use to tie their hair? It's usually a frilly torus made of fabric, with an elastic string embedded inside. In South Korea it's called gobchangkkeun (Hangul: 곱창끈), literally "small intestine string." What is it called in English? --Kjoonlee 18:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

A headband? - Nunh-huh 18:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

A headband is called hedeubaendeu in Korean. ;) The one I'm looking for is used on ponytails. --Kjoonlee 18:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a hairband. A headband is completely different. And it isn't just women who use them, though the plain ones (a.k.a. hair elastics) are the ones usually worn by both men and women. The more frilly ones ("scrunchies") are worn by women. Grutness...wha? 02:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd call it either a hair elastic, or (what i think you're looking for) a scrunchie. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 18:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe it. We don't have an article about scrunchies? —Keenan Pepper 19:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

We call them a "Pony O" in Australia, I just did a Google search and it seems the same term is used in the USA as well. --Canley 03:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

In my corner of Washington state, I have heard my coworkers call them ponies to little girls. And I just asked my mother and she uses the word pony tail with my 7 year old sister; either that or Scrunchee^tm. --Chris S. 03:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your answers. :) I think scrunchy/scrunchie/scrunchee is closest to what I was looking for. I wanted to know the name for the frilly version; hair elastic, pony O, and hair pony sound as if they might be ambiguous in some cases. I'm slightly confused about hairbands, though. Can hairbands refer to scrunchies too? --Kjoonlee 09:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I think hairband's the generic term covering all of these things. Grutness...wha? 03:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

In suburban communities within the United States consisting of women that shop quite a bit (also known as Loops or Loopies), the most common association I have seen is with the word "scrunchies". Ebay members often use this term in regards to hair products for children matching the description. This is in contract to hairbows which server the same purpose but are bows instead of being fluffy. The non-fluffy kind of bands are called elastic hairbands and are usually black elastic rubberband-type articles. -- Freebytes

I am here vacationing in Kettle Falls, WA. My aunt from Spokane used the word "pony tail holder" yesterday. Just FYI. :-) --Chris S. 21:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Subplot usage

June 29, 2006

Wikipedia,

What is the purpose of a subplot? I have found your encyclopedia most helpful but would like to know more.

Thank you,

Shari C. Graber

Basically the same functions as a main plot; to entertain or deliver a message. It's a way to tell stories in parallel (all at the same time) instead of in series (one at a time). Especially in a long book, a single plot without subplots gets a bit boring. A series has a particular need to tell individual stories in each episode and still tell a main story over the entire series. StuRat 19:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Subplots are very useful in television shows with composite casts rather than one main character (I think Hill Street Blues was one of the first shows to use them regularly). They help because it gives the other characters of the show something to do onscreen while the main plot is being dealt with by one or two of the characters. Grutness...wha? 02:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

True, but one could also argue that they chose to have such a large cast so they could support a number of subplots. The same applied when Steven Bochco cloned Hill Street Blues as NYPD Blue. I suppose we can look forward to The LA Blue Line and Blue Miami in the coming years. I, personally have seen enough of Dennis Franz's ass to last a lifetime. StuRat 15:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Digressions are found in writing : Thousand and one nights, where it helped the teller to live one night more ; XIXth c. novels, where it helped papers to sell more paper ; everywhere ; and on TV also. --DLL 21:20, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Two-way homonyms

The word bow is a double homonym. (bow \baʊ\ = bough; bow \boʊ\ = beau) Are there any other double homonyms? — Michael J 20:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

To, too, and two! (Don't know the IPA, sorry). Emmett5 21:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Not quite what I meant. Bow has two different pronunciations, and is a homonym for each of them. — Michael J 22:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

This page has a list of homonyms in alphabetical order. Ones with blue bullets seem to double, triple, etc homonyms. There's even a sextuple homonym! schyler 22:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Gotta be careful with those, though -- some of them (in particular the 6-tuple) are highly dependent on dialect. I don't pronounce "err" and "air" similarly at all. (On the other hand, "air" has two syllables in my dialect; what can you do?) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you pronounce "err" and "air," Jpgordon? The way they're pronounced where I live, they rhyme with "fair" and "where." But another triple homonym would be read (red/reed). Seahen 02:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't speak for Jpgordon, but in my neighborhood we pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her."[18] · rodii · 02:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Where's that? I'm pretty sure the sextuple would, at least, work throughout North America. Seahen 02:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you click on the links? The traditional pronunciation is--oh, screw finding those IPA characters--the "her" one. Nowadays that's less common in the States than the "hair" one, but still widely heard. I'm from Michigan, but I didn't literally mean my neighborhood. However, I teach at a US university, and this is actually a word, like "forte", that I rarely use in class, because no matter which pronunciation I use, invariably someone decides they want to "correct" me. The lesson being that there are definitely two pronunciations in active use in the US. · rodii · 03:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Does your university attract a lot of people from out of state? Seahen 14:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but can you not just accept the fact that there are two ways of pronouncing this word? I'm not sure what the issue is here. Some people, yes, even Americans, do not pronounce "err" as homophonous with "air."· rodii · 16:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Rodii on this - the two words sound completely different to me, but each has only one syllable. Grutness...wha? 03:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I pronounce "err" with a flat "ehhr" but "air" with a more diphthongy "eyr". One rhymes with "heh", the other with "hey"/"hay". In some dialects these are the same vowel, but I try not to speak with too much of a dialect. --Geoffrey 23:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

So you're looking for homographs which are not homophones. How about lead ([lɛd] and [lid])? —Keenan Pepper 02:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, I found a triple one: slough ([slʌf], [slaʊ], and [slu]). —Keenan Pepper 02:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Note that the English town of Slough is near the homographic non-homophonic Reading (pronounced "redding", not "reeding"!). Also, some words have completely different pronunciations (unrelated to accent) on the two sides of the Atlantic (the one that comes to mind first is Derby). Grutness...wha? 03:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Read works; it can be pronounced the same as "reed" or "red". "Do" can also be pronounced as "/du/" (a homonym of "dew") or "/doʊ/" (a homonym of "doe"). --Cadaeib (talk) 12:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks like Seahen got "read" first. Oh well, next time I'm just going to have to read the other answers more carefully before I jump in... (By the way, Wikipedia has a list of homographs too, but it isn't as extensive as the ones linked below.) --Cadaeib (talk) 00:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I like your answer (I'm not the question-poster).

Incidentally, this list:

http://www.opundo.com/homographs.htm

should be useful to others looking to find an answer. (The key word is "homograph". I'm also investigating a term "heteronym" that is new to me). There are probably other lists too, than the above, that was the first Google hit on "list of homographs".

Actually, check out this list!

http://www.rinkworks.com/words/heteronyms.shtml

That means "are" is a two-way homonym per the question, since it can be pronounced "air", and therefore is a homonym of this word, or "ahr", and therefore a homonym of the spelling of the letter R.

In many speakers' dialects, "our" is pronounced variously as are or hour depending on the context/syntax (much like "the" for thuh [shwa] or thee), and therefore the letter words are its homonyms. (are/hour).

Of course, if you count "dialects" then children certainly say "winned" (which would be attested mostly in children who haven't yet acquired the word strong form "won"), thus "wind" is homonym to "winned" and "whined" or "wined". I admit this is stretching it, so that's all for now.

Oh! On more: sow (pronoucned so and sou). [19] and [20] give, respectively, "sow2 (sou) n. An adult female hog." and "sough \SAU; SUHF\, intransitive verb: 1. To make a soft, low sighing or rustling sound, as the wind." Thus "sow" therefore is homonym to "sew" and "sough". There seem to be no such shortage of words. It's a bit arbitrary to need a different spelling to consider it a "homonym" since the two different words "sow" and "sough" (plant seeds, and female hog), since the two words "sow[1]" and "sow[2]" are already homonyms, despite being spelled the same. 82.131.188.85 19:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the title to "two-way homonyms" since that's what the question is. If anyone minds they can change it back. 82.131.188.85 19:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

How about the word "do"? Pronounced one way it's a verb (i.e to "do") which sounds the same as the word "dew" (and possibly "due", depending on how you pronounce "due") and pronounced another way "do" is a musical note (as in do-re-me) which is pronounced identically with two other words: "dough" and "doe". Is that what the questioner was looking for? Loomis 10:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Fuck off and die

What language has the best/most swear words? --67.185.172.158 21:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

New words to offend somebody are always being invented (or just have had their meaning changed (e.g. gay)). I don't know anything about them, but West Slavic languages just sound angry/mean to me. schyler 21:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard the Germanic languages described as having exceptionally large numbers of swear words. --Serie 00:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Look at our article on profanity. Some languages have fewer distinct obscenities, but may have a more productive or complex means of using them (as in Russian mat). Other languages place greater emphasis on politeness, so rudeness is conveyed not by specific obscene words, but by inflection or tone of voice (as in Japanese). Bhumiya (said/done) 02:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, I'd say that German has a natural "angry" tone to it. If you're looking for something more 'exotic', try Cantonese - Swear Words and their English Translations

PS: Whenever I'm chatting with someone in Cantonese, other people who don't speak the language naturally think we're in a fight... If normal talk in a language seems offensive, then swearing might seem even more obscene. Alex Ng 06:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

In a book by Laurie Bauer and Peter Trudgill (actually an edited volume so they didn't write all the articles) called Language Myths, (isbn: 0140260234), a couple of chapters discuss the idea that some languages have a kind of inherent value, that is, they are uglier or prettier, and so on. In fact, this is based on social stereotypes of speakers. So German, say, gets classified as 'aggressive' whereas French is typically 'romantic' or alternative 'logical'. In fact, it's the French who think their language is logical and English speakers, who think it's Romantic. As for swear words, the original question, there is a journal called Maledicta [[21]]. You might want to check it out. My personal favorite is peninsular Spanish, which has an interesting combination of obsenity and blasphemy (e.g. obsentity and blasphemy warning: I shit on god.} mnewman

I too have heard that predominantly Catholic linguistic groups (like Spanish speakers) tend to have the most the blasphemous curses. Apparently almost all Québécois swearwords somehow derive from religious terms (sacre bleu! is a euphemism for sacrament! for example). A more extended version of the Spanish curse above is "I shit on the twenty-four testicles of the apostles of Jesus". User:Angr 07:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

y la virgen y todos los santos mnewmanqc

The church in Quebec put up some billboards trying to reclaim the words - they have a word like "calice" in giant letters and the proper definition in smaller letters below. Adam Bishop 16:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

There was a brief mention in the Finnish media that some British (or Australian?) guy had written a travel guide to Finland, and the guide said that there are no swear words in Finnish. If a Finn feels the urge to swear, he/she says "ravintolassa" (meaning "in the restaurant"). This is not true at all. Finnish has many swear words (see Finnish profanity): vittu (cunt), paska (shit), saatana (Satan), perkele (Finnish devil), etc. So who was it who supplied blatant misinformation to that guy? JIP | Talk 17:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

If I find out I'd like to have a word with them, lying to a tourist is simply not on.HappyVR 17:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The source I know of for this assertion is The Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson. See that article for some interesting discussion on the reliability of this book. —Blotwell 03:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that Yiddish has some interesting insults (although not neccessarily "swears"). Mo-Al 03:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to insults, Dutch has some nice ones. We wish each other diseases. For example, one could say "Get typhoid, you cancer-sufferer." I don't know of any other language that has that. DirkvdM 12:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think profanity is like race in that neither actually exist outside of some social agreements (which almost immediatly became social disagreements). Are there any anthropologists, linguists, sociologists, etc. who have written anything about that? -LambaJan 02:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Maledicta - AnonMoos 20:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. -LambaJan 15:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I was actually hoping for something a little more in line with the common standards of scientific journals. I guess there actually isn't a journal for everything... But thank you still, it presented some ... interesting... ideas. -LambaJan 00:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

June 30

Short packed

What does it mean for a toy to be short packed? Seahen 02:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is an example. Say you have Series Q of Super-guy action figures. There are 6 figures in Series Q. However, you can fit 18 figures in a case (for shipping purposes). So the most logical thing to do would be to have 3 of each figure in a case, correct? Well sometimes toy manufactures decide to package more of one figure in a case than another. The ones that are less per case are then "short packed". Make sense?--Andrew c 02:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC) I hope you don't mind, i changed series 17 to series q, because it took me forever to figure out what you were saying. 82.131.188.85 19:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. What's the antonym then, to describe the one you pack more than an equal share of to make up the total count? Seahen 02:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Shelf warmers? Hmm.. I actually don't know that. A shelf warmer is a toy in a series that doesn't sell well and you see in the discount bins a couple months after the series release. I'm not sure if there is a correlation between packing and shelf warming. I imagine the company purposely makes more of the toys they think are the strongest, thus packing more per case (except for the case of rare, collectors items, which may be highly sought after, but short packed anyway). I do not believe there is an antonym for short packed.--Andrew c 02:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be 'long packed'?!?!! --Spike iron 23:30 11/07 2006

words spelled the same forwards and backwards

Hi, I cannot find what you call a word that is spelt the same fowards and backwards. ie: mum, or dad, or racecar

It is driving me crazy. Thankyou

[email removed]

Palindrome. —Keenan Pepper 02:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Emordnilap. (Ha!) · rodii · 02:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Notlob is a good one if you're a Monty Python fan...EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME | IMPROVEME 10:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

A man, a plan, a canal... Panama! --Dweller 10:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Aoxomoxoa. Able was I ere I saw elba.--Fuhghettaboutit 10:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Rise to vote, Sir! --Bearbear 10:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Richard Lederer's Crazy English has an entire chapter dedicated to palindromes. It's about a man called Doctor Otto Rotcod who only speaks in palindromes. --Kjoonlee 11:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Doc, note: I dissent. A fast never prevents a fatness. I diet on cod. --Cam 14:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Golf? No sir! Prefer prison flog.--Shantavira 18:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Straw? No, too stupid a fad; I put soot on warts. 82.131.188.85 19:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC).

Mr. Owl ate my metal worm. —Bkell (talk) 19:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Go hang a salami, I'm a lasagna hog. --WhiteDragon 17:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC) (thanks to "Weird Al" Yankovic)

So many dynamos! schyler 20:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh no! Don Ho! · rodii · 21:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Dennis and Edna sinned. User:Zoe|^(talk) 01:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Satan! Oscillate my metallic sonatas!--82.207.197.17 02:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

A dan, a clan, a canal, Canada! Mo-Al 03:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

wow  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  03:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

heh heh heh --Chris S. 05:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

lol —Keenan Pepper 02:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I. DirkvdM 12:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and everything from here and here, even in more than one language...Lectonar 12:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Precaoiusly?

Hello all. I'm looking for a word i cant remember what it is- is someething like 'precoisuly/pracoisly, it's something hanging uncertianily over somehting. Eg 'the can hang precaiously over the pile of clothes'. Hope you can find it and thanks in advanc. ````

• Wikt:precariously ? Lectonar 09:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes thats the word thank you very much.

You have to pray to stay alive, that's why life is precarious (Did Aulde English have no word for that act of begging, that they borrowed it from latin). --DLL 21:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Look up the etymology of "bead". AnonMoos 21:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. --DLL 19:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Steps or Stairs?

Hello Volunteers!

Does anybody know the difference between steps and stairs?

Cheers, Paul

I would say that "stair/s" is collective, while "step" is individuative. In other words, "stair/s" is most often used when referring to a large number or a collective group, as in the phrases the stairs and flight of stairs. But when referring to one such object, or to a small number thereof, one would speak of "a step", never "a stair". Likewise, when talking about a few of them, one will probably use "steps". In fixed expressions, "stair" is usually used: downstairs, upstairs, stairwell, stairway, etc. Anyway, this is my analysis, based on my personal experience of how the words are used. Bhumiya (said/done) 13:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. At the house where I used to live, we used the front and back steps to get into and out of the house via the ground floor, but we had stairs to go between floors. Seahen 14:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

So stairs always have steps, but steps are not necessarily stairs. (sorry)HappyVR 14:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Quoting the famous Muppet Show song as a reliable source, "Half way down the stairs is the step where I sit." --Dweller 14:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding steps and stairs, have we rung out the distinction between the former and the ladder ? :-) StuRat 15:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ouch. Tread lightly, sir! <g> - Nunh-huh 19:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I get it! You used ladder instead of latter! Very witty. schyler 20:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What you didn't get is that he made it a point to say "rung". 82.131.188.85 19:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC).

Very good, together you got both puns. (I sometimes worry that people don't get my sense of humor, but then somebody throws a rock at me, so I know they got it.) :-) StuRat 20:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Going snake by snake, that's the latter of my mottos. --DLL 20:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

stair is used in the singular but usually when it actually means the plural, as in 'we met upon the stair', a line from David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold The World'. --Alex.dsch 14:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't stare up the stairs, just step up the steps! --WhiteDragon 17:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

French spelling

In French, there does not seem to be any word that ends with "a" except for certain verb conjugations (future simple and past simple). Does French have a rule prohibiting "a" endings and is there a reason for it?

Oh là là! Non, I don't think there's an explicit rule - it's just an idiosyncrasy of the language. There are also much fewer K and W in the French language than in English; and far more Q and X. Nimur 20:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm -- la plume de ma tante est sur la table. Plus ça change, plus ça meme chose. (Okay, they're little bitty words, but they are words.) --LarryMac 21:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Its true compared with other Romance languages. "mierda", "merda" (to continue the theme) lost their final vowel to become "merde" in French. On the other hand there are a lot of words where the final consonant is silent so they are pronounced with a final a (such as "baccarat"). Jameswilson 22:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting example words :-) —Mets501 (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Editing Help

Is this correct:

in-between

Herod the Great's

Ending a sentence with: 28 B.C.

Putting a space after a colon:

In the North and East, Syria was ruled by Seleucus I.

He did the same thing as Pharaoh Neco did; replacing one king with another.

"in-between" vs. "in between": depends on what you're saying. "in-between" means intermediate, "in between" means "between".

"Herod the Great's": if you're asking about the formation of the possessive, it looks fine.

Most of your other questions relate to style rather than correctness, and a style guide (whichever you or your organization use for this purpose) would govern your selection. The CMS says no double period, so your B.C. example is fine by them. Colons are usually followed by spaces (except in URLs). Unless "the North" and "the East" are specific geographic locations in Syria—that is, if they are directions rather than regions—they should be lowercase. Your last sentence is a little convoluted; if this is anything other than an example, you might consider recasting it as "He, like Pharaoh Neco, replaced one king with another." - Nunh-huh 23:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, good answers.

The last sentence would be replaced instinctively with "He did the same thing as Pharaoh Neco did; replace one king with another." to make it parallel, and probably the semicolon would be changed to a colon. The sentence might need rewriting, but in any case it should be parallel. (Just like "there's only one thing we can do: writing a book about it" -- do you see how writing would be immediately replaced by write, by anyone?) Hope this helps. 82.131.188.85 19:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what you just said.

I disagree anyway, as the second "did" is redundant and "thing" is just horrid. I'd phrase it as follows: "He did the same as Pharaoh Neco: replace one king with another." I'd use a colon as the end of the sentence (after the colon) flows directly and logically. --Dweller 12:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, do you find the following strange: "There's only one thing we can do now: telling his parents." 82.131.188.85 21:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC).

I sure do. "There's only one thing we can do now: tell his parents." "There's only one thing we haven't been doing: telling his parents."

This could also use the infinitive although English doesn't use that much, ie. "There's only one thing we can do now: to tell his parents." --WhiteDragon 17:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Back on the specific question: It would be correct to write "He did the same thing as Pharaoh Neco did: replace one king with another," as 82.131.188.85 does; but Dweller raises a very good criticism. Why not "Like Pharaoh Neco, he replaced one king with another."? --eritain 08:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)