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Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 13

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September 13

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Template:Diplomatic missions of Honduras

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Contains only 2 English WP links, one of which is up for deletion. LibStar (talk) 15:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now only has 1 English entry. LibStar (talk) 06:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Manual of Style

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Propose merging Template:Manual of Style with Template:Style.
I feel that this page should be merged with Template:Style, because people make edits to one and not the other, thus causing confusion about which pages are actually part of the MoS. JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 14:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A comparison of the sidebox (Template:Style) and footer (Template:Manual of Style) by User:AP 499D25

Sidebox:

  • Easily accessible since it's at the top of the article
  • Works on mobile
  • Significantly limited in width, so it may be harder/slower to look through than the footer for some people
  • It's much harder to see everything at a glance as you've got to expand dozens of collapsible sections
  • Has a search box

Footer:

  • A bit harder to find since it's at the very bottom of the article. Desktop users can use the 'end' key to get there in one key press, but mobile users will need to scroll down and expand the very last section of the article to see it
  • Works on mobile too, surprisingly (unlike a lot of these other purple footer type templates)
  • Not limited in width, i.e. adaptive to the browser window size, so it can be significantly easier to read through than the width-limited sidebox
  • Easy to see everything at a glance, as this navigational template is just one giant collapsible box that shows everything at once when you click that 'show' button.
  • Has a search box too, albeit at the bottom rather than the top — AP 499D25 (talk) 03:29, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 14:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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These are link templates only with no special function, which are not sufficiently complex to merit a template. Suggest subst and delete. Izno (talk) 14:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep These, like a lot of similar useful shortcuts, are often used with the subst function, so you can't tell how often they are used. Why are you trying to make things harder for editors? The-Pope (talk) 15:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Templates which are so simple distract from learning wikitext: bare links are preferable in general so that pages are easy to update. I did not make an argument about how much they are used, but it's true, they aren't used very often. Izno (talk) 15:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As Pope said: if they were subst'd then you can't tell the actual usage. It's not an issue of learning wikitext, it's ease and speed of editing and makes things easier. That's already two editors who edit in the project telling you this. --SuperJew (talk) 09:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Make that three editors (just saw Aspirex replied below) --SuperJew (talk) 09:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I've said this before, if links for teams, groups, companies, games, etc., need a template, then why aren't we doing this for every other one that doesn't use a template? While this might seem silly, this is actually a core design philosophy here, either a template should be used for simple links, or plain links and redirects should be used. Looking at 2023 AFL Women's supplementary draft, Template:WAFLW Cla is used there manually, which means that someone took the time and instead of writing a clear link, used the template. This to me is very unhelpful as it makes reading the Wikitext harder. If these templates would have been used in automated way where code takes part of an article titles and from there uses it to find a template, then that would have been a different scenario, which this isn't it. TL/DR: less helpful than plain links with no real added value. Gonnym (talk) 16:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In response to your first comment, there are templates like this for most Australian football teams. Maybe we are just lazy, and you think it's a worthwhile endeavour to punish us lazy people and force us to write out [[Claremont Football Club|Claremont]] instead of {{WAFLW Cla}} or {{subst:WAFLW Cla}} everytime. I just don't think you should be able to tell me how I should be editing. Shortcuts are good, especially on mobile. But I wouldn't be surprised if people like you now go and hunt out and try to delete all of the other shortcut templates because of very serious editor reasons. I would very much doubt that many people are reading wikitext without understanding how templates work. The-Pope (talk) 06:44, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I nominated the two batches I did with the intent to nominate all of them. I stopped because you raised objections about these batches, so we would not have to have the same discussion multiple times over with N batches instead of 2. "There are other ones" is not a defense of this set. Izno (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"There are other ones" is in direct response to Gonnym's "why don't we do it for all" comment. We do do it for all in this topic space. But the "people like you will go and hunt them" was directed at you. Under WP:NPA I removed numerous adjectives from that sentence before posting. The-Pope (talk) 02:32, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete, obfuscates the wikitext with no significant benefit. Frietjes (talk) 19:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as for WAFL templates, there appears to be no policy against using shortcut templates in the manner in which these templates are being used. The arguments in favour of delete all seem like individuals' editing preferences and 'an alternative exists', and I can't find any policy or guideline which either encourages or precludes this. Therefore I say keep; as pointed out by the Pope, these shortcut templates are a ubiquitous and efficient feature of WP:AFL editing; and their functionality should be so quickly obvious to editors of any experience level that it renders "makes the wikitext harder to read" no more than a minor inconvenience, not a reason for wholesale deletion. Aspirex (talk) 08:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep These templates (and similar ones) are very useful for ease of editing effeciency, and save valuable time. Regarding the issue of making the Wikitext more complex, who exactly is reading the wikitext apart from other editors? And they are either of the project and themselves use the templates in editing and are familiar with it or a one-off look in who it shouldn't really affect at such a level anyway. If it really is such a big issue, the use can be changed to automatic substing via a bot. --SuperJew (talk) 09:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Similar to reasons that Aspirex, SuperJew, The-Pope have outlined - templates like these save time and adds efficiency and seem pretty useful Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 14:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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These are link templates only with no special function, which are not sufficiently complex to merit a template. Suggest subst and delete. Izno (talk) 14:49, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep These, like a lot of similar useful shortcuts are often used with the subst function, so you can't tell how often they are used. Why are you trying to make things harder for editors? The-Pope (talk) 15:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Templates which are so simple distract from learning wikitext: bare links are preferable in general so that pages are easy to update. I did not make an argument about how much they are used, but it's true, they aren't used very often. Izno (talk) 15:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That said, if it were true they were substed often, Template:WAFL EP wouldn't have 300 links. Izno (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    editors use it in different ways. Why do you feel you can demand that other editors edit like you edit? Why are editor assistance shortcuts bad? To make it clear, because I don't know if everyone actually knows what these templates, and many more like them for other leagues, generally do, is they remove the words "Football Club" from being displayed whilst still keeping it in the link, so that prose reads better or tables or lists aren't overwhelmed by repeated Football Club. It's much easier to write {{WAFL SF}} or {{subst:WAFL SF}} than [[South Fremantle Football Club|South Fremantle]].The-Pope (talk) 06:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. (copying my comment from the nomination above this, however, if replying to me, please only reply in one of them) I've said this before, if links for teams, groups, companies, games, etc., need a template, then why aren't we doing this for every other one that doesn't use a template? While this might seem silly, this is actually a core design philosophy here, either a template should be used for simple links, or plain links and redirects should be used. Looking at Perth Football Club, Template:WAFL CC is used there manually, which means that someone took the time and instead of writing a clear link, used the template. This to me is very unhelpful as it makes reading the Wikitext harder. If these templates would have been used in automated way where code takes part of an article titles and from there uses it to find a template, then that would have been a different scenario, which this isn't it. TL/DR: less helpful than plain links with no real added value. Gonnym (talk) 16:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete, obfuscates the wikitext with no significant benefit. Frietjes (talk) 19:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I don't much care about the outcome of the discussion, but the all the template for deletion warnings make the article 2024 WAFL season almost unreadable, and probably all others before! Please have a look for yourself. How is that improving Wikipedia? Calistemon (talk) 13:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Calistemon I had somewhat meant to use the tiny tag rather than the inline tag and then left it after nominating everything. I have no issue changing that since you've brought it up. Izno (talk) 15:50, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question is there a policy against using shortcut templates in the manner in which these templates are being used? So far, the arguments in favour of delete all seem like individuals' editing preferences and 'an alternative exists', and I can't find any policy or guideline which either encourages or precludes this. Certainly I want to keep them if no such policy exists; as pointed out by the Pope, these shortcut templates are a ubiquitous and efficient feature of WP:AFL editing; and their functionality should be so quickly obvious to editors of any experience level that it renders "makes the wikitext harder to read" no more than a minor inconvenience, not a reason for wholesale deletion. Aspirex (talk) 23:31, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, Wikipedia:Consensus is a policy. Gonnym (talk) 07:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess that means there isn't. So I advocate for Keep. Aspirex (talk) 08:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep These templates (and similar ones) are very useful for ease of editing effeciency, and save valuable time. Regarding the issue of making the Wikitext more complex, who exactly is reading the wikitext apart from other editors? And they are either of the project and themselves use the templates in editing and are familiar with it or a one-off look in who it shouldn't really affect at such a level anyway. If it really is such a big issue, the use can be changed to automatic substing via a bot. --SuperJew (talk) 09:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Similar to reasons that Aspirex, SuperJew, The-Pope have outlined - templates like these save time and adds efficiency and seem pretty useful Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 14:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge if kept. There is no reason to have a dozen of these templates. Merge them to a single template with a switch statement in it. It does not make sense to have a template for a single link, with a single template for each team. If you want to use a template to link to teams in a league and make it easy to change the link when a women's team article is created, something similar to {{Rugby union team}} should work fine. I'll be happy to work on it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Merge to a single template, similar to {{AFLW}} (for these, I suggest {{WAFLW}}), which uses a simple switch statement. There is zero reason to have a dozen templates when one is just as easy to use, and easier to maintain. The merge is trivial, simply replacing a space with a pipe, as shown in this edit. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:01, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I appreciate that you're offering a compromise to the discussion. I would say that I would support such a merge as an outcome of this discussion. Consolidation would bring WP:AFL more into line with other projects' usage of consolidated shorthand templates like Template:Esc and Template:flagIOC – which addresses the original nominator's comment about the simplicity of the individual templates, and the keep-voters' concerns about utility since all it requires is changing a space to a pipe. It doesn't address the 'obfuscates the wikitext' argument (in fact it arguably makes that alleged problem worse), but the prevalence of templates like flagIOC are a clear demonstration of how weak that argument is. I would encourage the WP:AFL keep-voters here to switch to support, and consider that combining these templates opens a few nice opportunities (for example, we could add a mascot=y/n parameter, a year parameter that could make {{AFL|Car|2024}} into a simple shorthand for 2024 Carlton Football Club season).
    Aspirex (talk) 21:08, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Diplomatic missions of Laos

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Contains 2 English WP entries, both of which are up for deletion. LibStar (talk) 14:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now only 1 English entry. LibStar (talk) 06:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now no English entries. LibStar (talk) 07:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Incumbent bishop of Lindi

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No transclusions. Content is a simple wikilink. No documentation, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 12:15, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Virat Kohli series

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Not enough coverage for a Sidebar. Half of these articles are irrelevant to the topic. Vestrian24Bio (TALK) 06:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's also the following template for the same reason,
Vestrian24Bio (TALK) 02:30, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Procedural, second template was tagged just nine hours ago.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 11:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Module:Str find word/report

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Unused and incomplete module according to the comment left ("not fit for mainspace in any form") a year and a half ago. Gonnym (talk) 08:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Module:Str find word/links/doc

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Unused strange documentation. Gonnym (talk) 08:46, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Module:Infobox film/track

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Unused tracking module based on the note and this CfD. Gonnym (talk) 08:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Echuca V/Line rail service

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Unused. Replaced with {{Bendigo V/Line rail service}}. Gonnym (talk) 08:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Ararat V/Line rail service

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Unused. Replaced with Template:Ballarat V/Line rail service. Gonnym (talk) 08:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. The Ballarat template was edited full of inaccuracies for the Ararat service, and the Swan Hill template is not replaced by the Ballarat template, Swan Hill services do not run on the Ballarat line at all! On the Bendigo article, the Swan Hill template was lazily replaced with a template for the physical Piagnil railway line, *not* representative of the Swan Hill passenger service whatsoever. I've fixed these templates back to how they always were until these random, senseless edits happened to them. Oppose, oppose, oppose. Граймс (talk) 08:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:HC VERVA Litvínov roster

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Single-use roster template with no documentation, categories, or template parameters. Subst into article and delete. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Cite braincomms

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This is a citation template for a single paper and is currently transcluded in only three articles. I don't see a sufficient reason for this to exist, so I propose to subst and delete. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SamuelRiv: I noticed that you removed the transclusions of this template after I nominated it. I would recommend reverting yourself and leaving a !vote here instead. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look, the template was being called in a malformed manner anyway, say overloading existing parameters with less precise less preferable ones (namely vauthors), so it would have to be edited no matter what the result here. And whether or not the template should be deleted (I don't care), it should not be used on those article pages as a single source replacement like this (there are very few exceptions for major PD sources from which we have pulled large amounts of content directly). It was drawn to my attention only to check the validity of the source, which I did, and then I validated the citation template, like I do every time I check a source. I am neutral on the TfD, but I'm not neutral on whether any existing template should be misused and malformed in its placement in an article. This is basic maintenance for which I would be doing the exact same thing regardless of the outcome here. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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