Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 17
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Proposal for player stats
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My current focuses on articles about college women basketball players, although this discussion have some impact on professional players as well. It is quite common to add a section on historical statistics for basketball players. Many of these entries follow a similar format, although there are some custom formats. There may be some good reason for custom formats and I don't propose enforcing uniformity for uniformity sake, but there may also be instances where a brand-new editor, unfamiliar with standard presentations of this data, chooses their own format simply due to lack of knowledge of other articles. As I look at the standard formats I see some shortcomings. I created a new format as an example, and I would like
In the above table I've listed various statistics. The first column has an abbreviation appropriate for a heading, while the explanation provides more detail and is appropriate for a legend. the next three columns list potential legends:
The first two are the most commonly used, and the third is one I created recently. The next column identifies information sent to the NCAA for recording in their database The final column represents the statistics presented in the media guide of Arkansas. (different schools may record different sets of information but many use the same provider so this is I believe a typical example) Note that the NBA and WNBA legend are almost identical. The WNBA legend adds turnovers per game. The WNBA legend also suggests that an asterisk can be used to identify league leaders but this is rarely used for college players. Other than that, the content of the two legends is virtually identical although the format is slightly different. I have used the NBA legend in many instances. However, this portrays only a subset of available stats. I'm not about to suggest that all available stats should be portrayed, but I do propose a modest increment. I'd like to add minutes and rebounds. I also slightly reorganize the order, starting with the first few columns unchanged, inserted minutes before minutes per game, inserting rebounds before rebounds per game, then the three shooting percentages and then finally the three other stats that are only presented on a per game basis.
I propose merging {{NBA player statistics start}}, {{Euroleague player statistics start}}, {{WNBA player statistics start}}, {{Basketball player statistics start}} and {{PBA player statistics start}} (there may be more of these, but I did not look for them) into a single template since there is absolutely no reason to have five (maybe more) almost identical templates. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
It appears that the creator of this discussion decided to ignore this discussion and has continued adding his/her preferred format to woman basketball BLPs. In addition, I cannot believe that an administrator would do such a thing and start acting disruptively by ignoring other editor's opinions. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
I don't see a compelling reason for women's basketball to display raw totals for minutes, points, rebounds or anything beyond games and games started. Averages are sufficient and preferred.—Bagumba (talk) 00:59, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Media GuidesI did a cursory review of the media guides. I selected them by doing an Internet search and looking at the first 10 in the list. The schools reported stats on almost identical formats. Some schools reported game started as well as games, although some reported only games. Some broke out rebounds into offensive and defensive in addition to totals some reported only totals. There are also some minor differences such as whether fouls and foul outs were reported. However, my conclusion is that for these media guides the important stats are either reported as both raw numbers and ratios, or as only raw numbers. I didn't find an example of a single staff in the media guides that is reported only as a ratio to games. Obviously, I concede that ESPN has a location reporting only ratios, but that seems to be the exception.
References
I never understood schools not computing averages. If you look at DIVISION I MEN’S BASKETBALL RECORDS from NCAA for 2020–21, starting at p. 38, all the annual leaders are listed by average. Maybe some oild-time SIDs still don't know how to use spreadsheets.—Bagumba (talk) 17:29, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
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Reboot
It is clear that some participants firmly in favor of ratios. I think we can eat our cake and have it too.
I will include a toy example here:
YEAR | GP | MPG | APG | BK |
---|---|---|---|---|
1995-96 | 34 | 18.56 | 1.15 | 0.59 |
1996-97 | 28 | 17.86 | 1.25 | 0.54 |
YEAR | GP | MIN | A | BK |
---|---|---|---|---|
1995-96 | 34 | 631 | 39 | 20 |
1996-97 | 28 | 500 | 35 | 15 |
An example with real data can be seen in User:Sphilbrick/Stats example
There are two differences compared to what I have been doing.
First, I haven't been a big fan of using the big box for a legend such as {{NBA player statistics legend}} but it was my impression that the header row with abbreviations such as {{NBA player statistics start}} would fall afoul of Accessibility concerns, but I recently learned, to my surprise
Abbreviations are exempt from these requirements, so the {{abbr}} template (a wrapper for the
<abbr>...</abbr>
element) may be used to indicate the long form of an abbreviation (including an acronym or initialism).
so I switched to using a single row header with abbreviations.
The second change is while I default to showing the ratios, I include a radio box below the table allowing the user to switch over to totals, or they can see both. This concept of having alternative presentations is well-established. See for example, the alternative map presentations info box of Alliance,_Ohio.S Philbrick(Talk) 13:56, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding the legend, I've started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Tables#Requirement_for_key?—Bagumba (talk) 13:35, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- Regading the raw totals, I still don't see a compelling reason to include them—per the above collapsed discussion. I think external links to stats sites is sufficient for readers interested in that niche. On a technical note, those radio buttons don't work for me on mobile view. I'm also not sure if it meets MOS:ACCESS for screen readers.—Bagumba (talk) 13:42, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- Bagumba, I will have to look into why the radio buttons don't work here. I just viewed User:Sphilbrick/Stats example in mobile view and they work fine. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:16, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- Bagumba, It is puzzling why it doesn't work in the mobile view here. I believe I copied and pasted the contents from a discussion at: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Ability_to_present_one_or_another_or_two_tables, where it works fine in mobile view. I don't think it's worth tracking down why it fails here, it it generally works. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:37, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- The technical part was just a side issue. I generally don't think raw totals are needed.—Bagumba (talk) 10:20, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
BIG3 TfD
You are invited to discuss a BIG3 champions navbox at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2021_June_23#Template:BIG3_Champions.—Bagumba (talk) 04:59, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Portal:Basketball recreated
Just want to let everyone know that Crossover1370 (talk · contribs) has recreated Portal:Basketball. Previous deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Basketball was pretty clear. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Portal:Basketball/Did you know (same AfD as for Portal:Basketball) has also been recreated, while Portal:Basketball/Interesting facts was created and redirected to Portal:Basketball/DYK. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:45, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Most of the deletion arguments were "no one wants to maintain these," so if someone wants to pick this up, I have no problem. SportingFlyer T·C 05:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, the portal war days. I never had much of a problem with it before, so no issue for me.—Bagumba (talk) 06:59, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Chinese Basketball Association vandalism
Hey, any way we can probably get some extra hands on guard at pages related to Chinese Basketball Association? I've noticed a lot of vandalism at team pages and the just finished season page this past week (some articles have already been protected for this reason), with it seeming to have stemmed from a large vandal history at Shanghai Sharks in the same timeframe. Thanks! Jalen Folf (talk) 04:03, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- An addendum to this: it seems this vandalism is stemming from a few external troll posts earlier in the month mentioning Ben Simmons and Kyle Kuzma, but I can't seem to locate the original posts. Jalen Folf (talk) 16:49, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Cannabis and sports
New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help with the Basketball section? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:49, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
WNBA players descriptions/categorizations
So, I've come across some WNBA players whose lead sentence describes them as American-Turkish or whatever, and who are categorized as emigrants to Turkey or American expats in Turkey. I know that male basketball players who get released from the NBA at 25 or whatever might go to Italy and play basically their entire career there instead, maybe living there full time, and it would be reasonable to describe them that way as that's where they played the major portion of their career.
WNBA players play overseas during the WNBA off-season because they earn so little (until recently the median WNBA player made under $60K) that to support their families, they annually play a second season overseas. It's a side gig. (Hopefully the new CBA changes that.)
Yeah, some of them have to get second passports in order to play for whatever teams, but their primary career is in the WNBA. At any rate, I was told at BLPN that some wikiprojects have MOS on this, and I just wanted to check whether I needed to get some consensus here before I started changing these from things like "American-Turkish" to "American. She also holds a Turkish passport." or whatever seems appropriate for a particular article. —valereee (talk) 11:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- I see no need for a change if they hold a dual passport. These individuals often play for the national teams of their adopted country, for instance Becky Hammon. Also, it is a rather biased view to consider their career outside of the WNBA some kind of a side gig when they often make much more money there than in the WNBA. Alvaldi (talk) 11:48, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- For comparison, Chris Kaman, Shawn Bradley, Jordan Clarkson and Andray Blatche are few of several current and former NBA players with American citizenship who became naturalized citizens of another country and have both nationalities listed in the lead sentence. Alvaldi (talk) 12:44, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Well, personally, I think it's a bit silly to describe Kaman as "German-American." He was born in Grand Rapids for heaven's sake, and he played for 13 years in the NBA but also in the 2008 Olympics for Germany and for which he had to get dual citizenship. IMO that doesn't make him German-American, and it feels kind of pointy to call him that. If he'd moved to Germany to play a career in Germany, that would be one thing.
- I'll do what we decide, but I just want guidance. To me the WNBA feels like a slightly different animal because so many of the players play off-season somewhere else. Sue Bird was described as American-Israeli, even though she apparently didn't play in international competition for Italy but needed an Israeli passport to play there? (Sorry for my relative ignorance here, I'm not at all a sporty type, just have recently become interested in the WNBA.) —valereee (talk) 13:03, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Also Shawn Bradley and Jordan Clarkson are a bit of a special case...Bradley was born in Germany to a German mother. Clarkson's mother is Filipinio-born. Blatche looks like same as for Kaman. He's not actually Filipino just because he has dual citizenship, which he got just to play there. I just feel like this feels pointy -- people called Hammon a traitor for playing for Russia. Maybe there's something left over from those kinds of feelings? —valereee (talk) 13:27, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Bradley was born to American parents in Germany but has an German grandmother according to this article. Regarding Hammon, whatever negative opinions some people might have had regarding her decision on gaining Russian citizenship should have no bearing on her article. Alvaldi (talk) 13:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- Also Shawn Bradley and Jordan Clarkson are a bit of a special case...Bradley was born in Germany to a German mother. Clarkson's mother is Filipinio-born. Blatche looks like same as for Kaman. He's not actually Filipino just because he has dual citizenship, which he got just to play there. I just feel like this feels pointy -- people called Hammon a traitor for playing for Russia. Maybe there's something left over from those kinds of feelings? —valereee (talk) 13:27, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Alvaldi, but that's the point. These aren't "adopted countries". The WNBA approved the new CBA partially because they're hoping with higher WNBA salaries, these women won't have to go play a second season somewhere else in order to support their families and will therefore avoid off-season injuries and be available for off-season promotion of the WNBA. Becky Hammon is a bit of a special case as her decision seems to have been primarily to play in the Olympics, but I still don't think that makes her American-Russian. I think she's an American who applied for dual citizenship so she could play in the Olympics, which of course was controversial at the time but doesn't make her an expat or emigrant. —valereee (talk) 12:46, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm wondering if something like "Sue Bird is an American-born professional basketball player who holds Israeli dual citizenship and has also played in Israel."? Rather than using a hyphen, which implies a different meaning? —valereee (talk) 13:16, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding playing somewhere else during a particular leagues offseason is not just found in women's basketball, the same can be found in men's professional basketball also. Regarding Bird, she is of Russian Jewish anchestry through her father according the the article and as far as I can see her Israeli citizenship has nothing to do about her basketball career as she has never played in or for Israel. Outside of the WNBA, she has played 10 years for Russian teams and as far as I know an Israeli citizenship doesn't help there. Alvaldi (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Per the source in the article, the Russian team used her Israeli citizenship as a loophole, since there was otherwise a quota of two Americans per team.[1] However, I don't see how that technicality warrants mentioning her dual citizenship in the lead. The body would be fine.—Bagumba (talk) 14:21, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- American-born players in the NBA regularly take off-season gigs while also under contract in the NBA? (Again, please excuse my ignorance; I only got interested in the WNBA because these women are awesome people, not because I know anything about basketball.) I figured the NBA would discourage it. That's one of the reasons the WNBA agreed to raise salaries: to discourage playing overseas off-season. —valereee (talk) 11:48, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- Not in the NBA, unless they are a free agent. I can't speak for other leagues around the world.—Bagumba (talk) 12:08, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- It is not uncommon for professional players to jump straight to another league during other leagues off seasons. I've seen it in many of the European leagues and you can see it with foreign players in the Chinese Basketball Association who join other leagues, including the NBA, when the CBA's season ends. But I'm not sure any of this really matters in the discussion for the topic at hand. Alvaldi (talk) 14:09, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- Not in the NBA, unless they are a free agent. I can't speak for other leagues around the world.—Bagumba (talk) 12:08, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding playing somewhere else during a particular leagues offseason is not just found in women's basketball, the same can be found in men's professional basketball also. Regarding Bird, she is of Russian Jewish anchestry through her father according the the article and as far as I can see her Israeli citizenship has nothing to do about her basketball career as she has never played in or for Israel. Outside of the WNBA, she has played 10 years for Russian teams and as far as I know an Israeli citizenship doesn't help there. Alvaldi (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm wondering if something like "Sue Bird is an American-born professional basketball player who holds Israeli dual citizenship and has also played in Israel."? Rather than using a hyphen, which implies a different meaning? —valereee (talk) 13:16, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- For comparison, Chris Kaman, Shawn Bradley, Jordan Clarkson and Andray Blatche are few of several current and former NBA players with American citizenship who became naturalized citizens of another country and have both nationalities listed in the lead sentence. Alvaldi (talk) 12:44, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Anyone who's hyphenated for nationality (as opposed to MOS:ETHNICITY) should, at a minimum, be sourced that they hold dual citizenship. Sometimes editors just assume they are or don't understand the nuances of hyphenating. If they played on a different national team than their native country, I'd be inclined to have both in the lead sentence. Anything beyond that is a matter of consensus. NBA players get a lot of drive-by editors who add nationalities, sometimes unrelated to the person's notability; they are not always kept e.g. Kyrie Irving, Ben Simmons. I'm not sure if there is a legal definition of an expat. If there isn't, it's hard to argue how many months out of the year is needed to be considered an expat as opposed to someone temporarily working abroad.—Bagumba (talk) 13:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
BIG3 Inclusion
Seeing as they are going on their 4th season I feel it's about time that BIG3 should have accomplishments recognized in info boxes. I understand that the rules are different from the FIBA ways but it's clear that they have formed a league that has reached another level then many expected and are the first major 3 on 3 league that gets national attention. Eerie Holiday (talk) 17:06, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree. The fact that they just skipped a season (on top of previous concerns about the league’s stature) tells me we need to see more history here before it is recognized on par with established leagues. I’d like to see them make a comeback and continue to gain recognition before we start treating the league like more established 5-on-5 leagues. It is also a complicating factors that 95% of the players are actually retired NBA players officially Rikster2 (talk) 18:54, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- —Disagree as well. Rikster2 elucidated my general feelings, but to add, this league is still merely a glorified old-timers league. A future discussion of the merits of infobox achievements can be had once the BIG3 reaches 5, 6, 7 or whatever) years. But right now it's not nearly on par with calling legitimate college and professional accomplishments. SportsGuy789 (talk) 22:38, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- It's more than just the number of years that they are around. It needs to get mainstream written press coverage to justify adding more WP:WEIGHT to its amount of text in bios and it mention in the lead.—Bagumba (talk) 02:18, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
- I agree. Right now, it's kind of trivial. Catalyst30 (talk) 08:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
While we are at it, I have serious concerns about The Basketball League and the current American Basketball Association. In my opinion neither of these leagues receive enough coverage to make them meet WP:GNG. You can’t even find scores or stats online for them. At least the Big3 has a TV contract. Rikster2 (talk) 13:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
- Unless there is mainstream coverage outside of broadcasts, it's probably WP:UNDUE to mention in bios.—Bagumba (talk) 04:10, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- The BIG3 has aired on four of the biggest TV networks there is in sports and television FOX, FS1, CBS and CBS Sports Network. And still currently air on two and now signed a deal with FITE TV the leader in streaming sports / entertainment. I think those are things to take into consideration in seeing something is happening with the leagues credibility. They also get national coverage on all major sports outlets ESPN etc. And did to covid they missed a season and not the only major league to miss a season. Eerie Holiday (talk) 13:45, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Do you have any sources to indicate to us that we should devote more coverage to this? Catalyst30 (talk) 06:52, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
I think BIG3 accomplishments should be shown in info boxes. The league skipped a season due to COVID-19. The league is getting more and more attention everyday. You have coaches like Julius Erving, Gary Payton, and other NBA legends. Joe Johnson is tearing up the league right now bring more attraction to it. How much more real can it get?? Markwayne125467 (talk) 15:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
- Nobody is saying it's not real. It's an editorial decision to not put it in the infobox. You're free to add it into the prose, preferably cited with a reliable source.—Bagumba (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Adding teams for drafted players before contracts are signed
There is an ongoing dispute as to whether players drafted by NBA teams should have their draft team added to their infobox before they have signed a contract. I argue that we should wait to see if the player actually signs a contract with a team; in every past NBA draft, there have been between 2 and 5 players who have not signed contracts despite being drafted. If you would like to add to the discussion, please do so here.--User:Namiba 18:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Timeline on Canadian Elite Basketball League
Hello - There is a team timeline on Canadian Elite Basketball League that's somehow broken, and I can't see why it's displayed as it is....that is, it has no text displayed within it. An IP made what appears to be a valid edit on Feb 16 2021, but it seems to be the change that broke the formatting of the timeline. Can somebody please have a look and hopefully fix it? Thanks in advance! PKT(alk) 15:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- It looks like Blaixx made the repair. Thanxx Blaixx ! PKT(alk) 13:59, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Tournament matches template
Hey everyone, As it happens, many match boxes of Template:Basketballbox collapsible are duplicated throughout the project, as many of them appear in at least 3 locations: The tournament season, home team and away team. This causes much repetitive work and can lead to having mismatching information on similar match boxes.
To solve this problem, I've created Template:2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup qualification (Europe) – Qualifiers matches for 2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup qualification (Europe) § Qualifiers as a proof of concept. The Template is already transcluded to the groups stage first round page, as well as to every participating team page.
With This template, information of every match is maintained and updated in a single location and transcluded into all three. The benefits of using the template, besides savings of effort and code, are that it still allows for coloring of the match boxes for the winner and loser, as I've explained in the talk page of the template. Here is s simple demonstration with the match of Slovakia vs. Belgium, assuming for the this demonstration that Slovakia won the match.
{{2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup qualification (Europe) – Qualifiers matches|Slovakia v Belgium}}
25 November 2021 | Slovakia | 57–83 | Belgium | Levice | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
18:00 | Scoring by quarter: 11–15, 24–21, 11–25, 11–22 | |||||
Pts: Brodziansky, Krajčovič 18 Rebs: Brodziansky 8 Asts: three players 3 |
Boxscore | Pts: Libert 17 Rebs: Mwema, Van Vliet 6 Asts: Obasohan 6 |
Arena: Športová hala Levice Attendance: 0 Referees: Yener Yılmaz (TUR), Carsten Straube (GER), Ventsislav Velikov (BUL) |
|||
Note: |
{{2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup qualification (Europe) – Qualifiers matches|Slovakia v Belgium|round=1|bg=#CCFFCC}}
25 November 2021 | Slovakia | 57–83 | Belgium | Levice | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
18:00 | Scoring by quarter: 11–15, 24–21, 11–25, 11–22 | |||||
Pts: Brodziansky, Krajčovič 18 Rebs: Brodziansky 8 Asts: three players 3 |
Boxscore | Pts: Libert 17 Rebs: Mwema, Van Vliet 6 Asts: Obasohan 6 |
Arena: Športová hala Levice Attendance: 0 Referees: Yener Yılmaz (TUR), Carsten Straube (GER), Ventsislav Velikov (BUL) |
|||
Note: |
{{2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup qualification (Europe) – Qualifiers matches|Slovakia v Belgium|round=1|bg=#FFCCCC}}
25 November 2021 | Slovakia | 57–83 | Belgium | Levice | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
18:00 | Scoring by quarter: 11–15, 24–21, 11–25, 11–22 | |||||
Pts: Brodziansky, Krajčovič 18 Rebs: Brodziansky 8 Asts: three players 3 |
Boxscore | Pts: Libert 17 Rebs: Mwema, Van Vliet 6 Asts: Obasohan 6 |
Arena: Športová hala Levice Attendance: 0 Referees: Yener Yılmaz (TUR), Carsten Straube (GER), Ventsislav Velikov (BUL) |
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Note: |
Enjoy. It will save a lot of effort in the future. Deancarmeli (talk) 08:03, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comments:
NBA seasons: team list?
The articles on NBA seasons contain no section with an explicit list of the competing teams (with wikilinks to their seasons' articles, I'd expect). That role is filled by the section reporting the results for the regular season, which is counterintuitive.
By the way, the name of that section is not uniform throughout all articles: seasons up to 2009-10 have it named "Standings" (which is ambiguous at best), the most recent ones have a more explicit "Regular season" section. Should we apply a standard form to all of them? --176.247.236.239 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:22, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please take this up at WT:NBA. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:28, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Basketball players with dual citizenship
Instead of the typical dual citizenship (Mexican-American), why do infoboxes for basketball players with multiple citizenship use slashes / like "Mexican / American"? --62.165.249.184 (talk) 15:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- "Mexican-American" (for example) also means an American person of Mexican descent who may have no Mexican citizenship. The slash is much less ambiguous. Rikster2 (talk) 16:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Question
Do all North American amateur leagues (other than NCAA) use IAABO rules? Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 21:42, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- What's IAABO, and what's your definition of "North American amateur leagues"? Howard the Duck (talk) 22:29, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- International Association of Accepted Basketball Officials. Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Shouldn't referees follow the rules of whatever leagues they are officiating at? Howard the Duck (talk) 18:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- International Association of Accepted Basketball Officials. Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Team subsection in a player's page
Are there any hard rules or policy if a team subsection gets to be made in a player's article. I'm under the impression that usually we only make team subsection if a player actually plays competitive games for said team because usually there isn't much to be said regarding a player's stay in a team they did not play with. (e.g. "John Doe joined the Los Angeles Lakers in 2018. He later joined Golden State in 2019 where he made his NBA debut and later became the team's season MVP for that season" would be under a subsection dedicated to "Golden State Warriors" only).
However in Kai Sotto's case, he joined the NBA G League Ignite but did not play a single competitive game with the team and later went on to play in Australia with the Adelaide 36ers. But I believe that a separate section for Ignite is warranted because...
- Sotto joining Ignite is at least viewed by the Philippine national media to be a key development in Sotto's career.
- Ignite is not meant to be a competitive team and is not part of the G League structure. They just got the chance to play in the 2020 season due to regular teams forgoing due to COVID.
- It would be awkward to have a supposed section for the Adelaide 36ers to have it's first half dedicated to Sotto's stay in a developmental team.
Mandomanny313 seems to insists that a subsection should not be created for a team a player didn't play a game in a regular season at all.
Any feedback on what should be proper approach to present Sotto's stay with IgniteHariboneagle927 (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
- General rule has been to create one only if a player appears in games for the team. No idea if there was ever a consensus discussion about that though. As an aside, one of my pet peeves are people putting subsections when only a sentence or two are written about the stint, that isn’t enough prose to warrant a subsection in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 19:57, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
- What do you think for Kai Sotto's case, his stay with Ignite. Is there enough prose for a subsection?Hariboneagle927 (talk) 04:40, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Result editing
Just to let the project know, editing the formatting of the results on articles such as the national team articles like Great Britain men's national basketball team are getting locked behind templates. Appears to be a WP:SUBSTITUTE violation as far as I am aware. :/ Govvy (talk) 15:23, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- It is known and was previously published. See §Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 17 Tournament matches template. As for WP:SUBSTITUTE, I'll point you to WP:JUSTAPOLICY that states "Just pointing at a policy or guideline" as an argument to avoid in a discussion. please, elaborate. Deancarmeli (talk) 21:25, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- So you implemented all of that with no comment or consensus from anyone, dam that's bad. I wouldn't be surprised if those templates get deleted. You really do seem to run a dangerous line. Govvy (talk) 22:48, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well, there was no opposition, the case for this format was clearly made, the templates were transcluded to every relevant article and editors seems to be fine with them – keeping more pages updated with less edits. I'm having some problem seeing your issue, and don't think your vague threat is in place. Deancarmeli (talk) 22:56, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- So you implemented all of that with no comment or consensus from anyone, dam that's bad. I wouldn't be surprised if those templates get deleted. You really do seem to run a dangerous line. Govvy (talk) 22:48, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
RFC that could affect this project
There is a titling RFC at Wikipedia talk:Article titles that will affect many articles at this project. There was discussion of making the RfC handled bit by bit before all projects understood the ramifications with entertainment being singled out next in a deleted draft, and other projects after that. Whether you agree or don't agree please join in the discussion for this massive Wikipedia change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:39, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
WP:INFONAT
@Bagumba:, @Rikster2:, @Sabbatino: Hey guys. What are your thoughts about this user going through infoboxes and making mass changes citing WP:INFONAT. Thanks. DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:21, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- I see Bagumba asked the user to stop. I think consensus definitely needs to be reached here. As you said Bagumba, INFONAT does not say that the country must be included in the birthplace. DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I was discussing with Thrakkx on their talk page, where they cited WP:INFONAT. However, that only says not to list a country redundantly in both the birthplace and nationality fields. It does not mandate that the country must be in birthplace instead of nationality, the longstanding convention for basketball infoboxes. I have asked that they stop the mass changes and establish consensus for their desired style.—Bagumba (talk) 06:32, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, I read the discussion on this topic at Template talk:Infobox basketball biography, and I’m here to point out some issues.
- First, WP:INFONAT states that the nationality parameter of infoboxes should not be used when it can be obviously inferred by the person’s country of birth. This is community-wide consensus, which is important to mention, and seemingly everywhere outside of sports biographies, it is universally followed. Look at any high-profile musician, politician, scientist, etc. None will list the nationality (unless 1) the situation is not simple, such as dual citizenship, etc. or 2) someone erroneously added the nationality in cases where it should have been omitted)
- The discussion at the basketball infobox template focused on the excessive listing of a person’s nationality: How many different times and how many different ways do we have to bombard the reader with the fact that the subject athlete is American? So, there was local consensus to not list the country of birth when the nationality suffices. Problem is that this consensus was flawed from the start, because it rests on the fact that the nationality field should be populated, which for most cases it should not be. Additionally, per WP:CONLEVEL: Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. The wider-scale consensus is not to list the nationality wherever possible (INFONAT).
- So, surely you all would agree that for non-American players, for example Karam Mashour, I was right to remove his nationality. He is Israeli and born in Israel. We are bombarding the reader of his nationality. Additionally your local consensus, which stipulates that his country of birth should be removed from birth_place, was not being followed anyway, because it lists Nazareth, Israel. For American players, you all may have a different opinion on including “US”, but at the end of the day, the nationalities have to go. You can choose whether to include “US”. Thrakkx (talk) 16:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- First off, stop being an ass and hold off continuing to make these edits while clearly there is a discussion going on and folks have disagreed with your changes. Second, the nationality field for some athletes has a purpose as these athletes compete for their countries and more frequently become naturalized or dial citizens for this reason. Third, none of that guideline COMPELS the action you are taking, so your hardline stance that a community’s ability to drive consistency aren’t valid. Rikster2 (talk) 17:06, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- INFONAT accounts for complex situations involving nationality. If it is not immediately apparent by the country of birth, list it (or alternatively citizenship). Look at John Oliver as an example. Also, it makes no sense to argue that a particular guideline doesn't compel anyone to conform articles to it. What was the point of writing the guideline then? And you are right, the problem here is consistency, which is why sports biographies should respect INFONAT like every other biography on the site. Otherwise you'll have to write a comment attempting to defend this consensus, like the one that appears in Kobe Bryant's article, every single time an article attracts the attention of the wider community. Thrakkx (talk) 21:20, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- First off, stop being an ass and hold off continuing to make these edits while clearly there is a discussion going on and folks have disagreed with your changes. Second, the nationality field for some athletes has a purpose as these athletes compete for their countries and more frequently become naturalized or dial citizens for this reason. Third, none of that guideline COMPELS the action you are taking, so your hardline stance that a community’s ability to drive consistency aren’t valid. Rikster2 (talk) 17:06, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- Suggestion - if this is going to be a big production then my suggestion is just remove nationality field from the infobox. I think it adds value, but if it’s going to cause consternation from otherwise uninterested editors then it’s not worth it. It’s in the lead sentence of the article anyway. Rikster2 (talk) 17:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- To date, the "big production" is one person's persistent campaign among reverts by multiple editors. The onus is on them to establish support for their interpretation. INFONAT doesn't seem to say what they think it does.—Bagumba (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- You can try to override community-wide consensus if you like, but the onus is on you to convince the wider community that INFONAT doesn't apply to basketball biographies. CONLEVEL does literally list this situation as an example: For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. Thrakkx (talk) 01:17, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- You and what army is pushing for this mass across-the-board change? It is literally YOU vs the basketball community. Why live and die by a guideline that a particular project disagrees with. I would never start going through a bunch of articles of which I do not regularly edit (from say another sport or industry) and start making mass changes, guidelines or no guidelines. You must have expected regular editors of that project to resist? I don't care what INFONAT says – if you can't establish consensus here, I won't be aligning. DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:57, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- @DaHuzyBru: your two cents on the matter is exactly the reason why there is an ArbCom case associated with CONLEVEL. It’s not me vs you, it’s you vs a well-established, community-wide consensus. Other projects don’t have an issue with minimizing the use of nationalities in infoboxes, and if they do, they respect the greater consensus on the matter, so. Thrakkx (talk) 05:13, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- Except that you interpretation of INFONAT does not equal community consensus. I, and others, don’t read that guideline and get anywhere near the same rigid meaning that you get. That’s why we talk about these things. Rikster2 (talk) 06:12, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- @DaHuzyBru: your two cents on the matter is exactly the reason why there is an ArbCom case associated with CONLEVEL. It’s not me vs you, it’s you vs a well-established, community-wide consensus. Other projects don’t have an issue with minimizing the use of nationalities in infoboxes, and if they do, they respect the greater consensus on the matter, so. Thrakkx (talk) 05:13, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- You and what army is pushing for this mass across-the-board change? It is literally YOU vs the basketball community. Why live and die by a guideline that a particular project disagrees with. I would never start going through a bunch of articles of which I do not regularly edit (from say another sport or industry) and start making mass changes, guidelines or no guidelines. You must have expected regular editors of that project to resist? I don't care what INFONAT says – if you can't establish consensus here, I won't be aligning. DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:57, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- You can try to override community-wide consensus if you like, but the onus is on you to convince the wider community that INFONAT doesn't apply to basketball biographies. CONLEVEL does literally list this situation as an example: For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. Thrakkx (talk) 01:17, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- To date, the "big production" is one person's persistent campaign among reverts by multiple editors. The onus is on them to establish support for their interpretation. INFONAT doesn't seem to say what they think it does.—Bagumba (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
I have nominated Paige Bueckers for featured article consideration, and would appreciate any comments at the FAC page. Sportzeditz (talk) 17:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Basketball and Media executive Zack Weiner up for deletion
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zack Weiner. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:16, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Dandenong Rangers or Southside Flyers
While reading about Alison Downie, I came to the page Dandenong Rangers, which seems to have been rebranded to the Southside Flyers. I was wondering if this shouldn't be merged to one page as it is the same team and the Flyers seem to consider Rangers' history as their own? --SuperJew (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
FAR for Cliff Clinkscales
I have nominated Cliff Clinkscales for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 21:11, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
- One thing I noticed was the article was not up to date. Clinkscales last played in 2020 and his former team has folded. He was announced as an assistant coach for the KW Titans on Christmas Eve. I updated all this but you may want to copyedit what I wrote. Rikster2 (talk) 22:46, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
RfC to abolish NHOOPS
There is currently pending at RfC: Abolish the current version of NSPORTS a proposal to eliminate NSPORTS, including WP:NHOOPS. Feel free to weigh in there if you have thoughts on the issue. Cbl62 (talk) 02:30, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS (and NBASKETBALL) an invalid argument at AfD
A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT (and no other SNG) providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS or NBASKETBALL] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." The new proposal is targeted solely at NSPORTS and would not impose similar changes on SNGs for academics, entertainers, politicians, businessmen, or any other group or category. If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 14:55, 22 January 2022 (UTC)