Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 46

Archive 40

←

Archive 44

Archive 45

Archive 46

Archive 47

Template:Kobe Bryant and LeBron James series

I might create the Michael Jordan series equivalent for Kobe and LBJ. Any reason why it would be deleted? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The main reason, even the Jordan one, they could be deleted is that they don't really refer to each other. The commonality is just the player, not that the subtopics are intertwined. Like a relative, a movie, a statue, and a restuarant have little to do with each other. Per the WP:SIDEBAR guideline:

Navigation templates located in the top-right corner of articles (sometimes called a "sidebar" or "part of a series" template) should be treated with special attention, because they are so prominently displayed to readers. The collection of articles in a sidebar template should be fairly tightly related, and the template should meet most or all of the preceding guidelines. If the articles are not tightly related, a footer template or navbox, located at the bottom of the article, may be more appropriate.

This is more appropriate for very large topics like World War II. —Bagumba (talk) 07:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Carmelo Anthony

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Carmelo Anthony, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. —Bagumba (talk) 03:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

PRODs of interest

Looking at CAT:PROD, there appear to be a few articles proposed for deletion on basketball teams that may be of interest:

• Hartford Hurricanes
• New Britain Mules
• BAA Buffalo
• BAA Indianapolis

Can anyone determine if these are notable? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

NBA team histories

16 teams have team history articles (Template:NBA team histories). Is there a good reason why the other 14 teams do not have team history articles? Namely, Raptors, Bulls, Bucks, Hawks, Pistons, Magic, Wizards, Nuggets, Timberwolves, Jazz, Clippers, Suns, Kings, Spurs - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 02:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Because no one has been passionate enough to create them haha? Rikster2 (talk) 14:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

And that passion often just leads to a bunch of WP:OR, cherry-picked fan memories, or mass duplication of what's in (or should already be in) individual team season articles, instead of basing the history on reliable sources that curate the franchise's highlights. —Bagumba (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

There is definitely enough rich history to carry articles for these teams, especially franchises like the Pistons, Hawks and Spurs. But these articles take a very long time to create well. And the person needs to be willing to do real research. Much faster to produce player/coach articles or lists. Rikster2 (talk) 15:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a Franchise History Column on the page of all those teams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goodboy70 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Tyus Jones

It seems that Tyus Jones has not only led the NBA in assists:turnover ratio for a sixth consecutive season, but also surpassed his previous the NBA single-season record for a second time (min 200 assists) 327/47 (6.95, 2018–19) 324/46 (7.04, 2021–22) to 485/66 (7.35, 2023–24). I don't seem to be able to find a WP:RS for this fact.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

This is the closest i've got with 2 games left.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I thought USA Today is an RS source? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

User:BeFriendlyGoodSir, The problem is that the season did not end until April 14. That source was written with at least 2 games remaining.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

More articles will be written about him and the record after the playoffs. Wait around until offseason. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources says USA Today is a good RS source, at least I think? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Is this an WP:RS?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:09, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

this seems to be an RS for leadership, but does not mention the record.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:15, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Tyus’ season-best record needs to be updated on NBA records as well. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 20:10, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

That list only has sourced records it seems. I need a source.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:20, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Youngest NBA Blocks leader

Resolved

At List of NBA regular season records, Anthony Davis is listed at Youngest/Oldest to lead the league in blocks as the Youngest: Anthony Davis at 21 years, 36 days (on April 16, 2014), averaging 2.8 blocks per game. I do not see a source for this record which does not matter for this list because Victor Wembanyama surpassed that record this year, but it does matter because I would like to include the fact that he held the record for 10 seasons in his bio. I have a source for Wembanyama.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

• User:Tbb 911, who has not made an edit in over 100 days was the person who added that fact.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Source found.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

List of countries with their first NBA player

Similar to List of countries with their first NHL player, NBA could benefit from an article called List of countries with their first NBA player which would expand upon Race and ethnicity in the NBA. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

In theory, the info is already at List of NBA players born outside the United States if you sort by career years and then by country. —Bagumba (talk) 04:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Steph Curry 6-6 on threes on April 9

On April 9, Curry went 6–6 on threes (https://www.espn.com/nba/recap/_/gameId/401585783). I know that Jalen Brunson tied the NBA record this year with a 9-9, so it is not nearly an NBA record for single-game threes without a miss. However, Steph has never gone more than 4–4 without a miss before. I believe this might be a Warriors record (based on my cursory look at his game logs). Nonetheless, statmuse.com does not include the performance (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/most-3-point-shots-made-without-a-miss-in-a-game-in-golden-state-history), but seems support 6–6 as a team record. I want to drop it in Stephen_Curry#Records as a shared record, but can't find any support for this.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

If there was a Golden State Warriors accomplishments and records article (similar to Los Angeles Lakers accomplishments and records), perhaps that would be a good place to put that information. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger, Adding it to Golden State Warriors#Franchise leaders and awards would probably not fit. Other option is to add record to List of career achievements by Stephen Curry but that article is most likely going to be deleted because of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Larry Bird. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

User:BeFriendlyGoodSir, it looks like a lot of these lists have been trashed. Is that content really being deleted or is it being merged back?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger, Perhaps some of it should have been merged to main article but I believe they did not. They already deleted Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Dwight Howard, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Carmelo Anthony , Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Chris Paul and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Dwyane Wade (2nd nomination). - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure how I feel about those deletions personally but that is the consensus. Their reasoning is WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTSTATS. But it might also have to do with WP:NOEFFORT and lacking sources. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Rodman and Garnett are the most recent lists to be deleted. I disagree with the consensus, but it is a consensus.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Team captains

There's quite a few current roster templates where captains are marked.[1] At the last discussion in 2018, there was no indication that these are verifiable (if even a thing still).

Any objectioons to:

1. Remove them from current templates
2. Remove them from historical team season pages
3. Remove from the legend at Template:NBA roster footer

@Rikster2 and Sabbatino:: Courtesy notification as participants from the last discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 05:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sbaio: Oops, your name changed since then.—Bagumba (talk) 05:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The info is usually unverified and lots of assumptions that star players are automatically captains. I support the idea of removing completely. Rikster2 (talk) 12:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

They should be removed completely. I always remove the "C" when I end up on roster templates, but anonymous IP editors tend to add them again. – sbaio 14:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

None of the roster pages that I saw (NBA.com, ESPN, Fox Sports, CBS and B-R) list team captaons, but all as well don't show things such as college, and only some listed injury status or being a G-League player. If we'd be ditching this, we'd be ditching several more data. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

NBA.com used to list all roster info in a table, but then they went to a picture gallery. To get the college info, you need to click on the "Player Bio" link from their pic. At any rate, college is verifiable, one way or another. We don't know where to readily get historical captain info to support all the uncited data. In more recent times, I don't even think the concept still exists in the NBA. I was never into injury updates, but at least they're moot once a season is over.—Bagumba (talk) 15:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

NBA.com does use a gallery to present rosters, but for the others that I saw still used the tabular format. Some denoted injuries and G-Leaguers, and yes the colleges should be on individual player pages, but the tabular all have name, position (not all that I saw agreed on the position), jersey number, height and weight. This is on mobile and may be different on PCs. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

ESPN and Basketball Reference show colleges on desktop (at least).—Bagumba (talk) 15:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

On mobile, ESPN seems it doesn't, but you'd have to scroll on the right side to see it. It even has a column for salary and I haven't seen that earlier.

Suggestion: Either replace NBA.com with ESPN as roster references, or add ESPN as a second reference. Remove captains, injuries, draft picks, etc. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

We've always referred to NBA.com for the "listed" height and weight, so that would be a big departure to remove it. —Bagumba (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

For "etc." I was referring to the symbols used in {{NBA roster footer}}. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, these roster templates are exclusively sourced to NBA.com team pages. If this is the case, only the information seen on the web page should be the ones that should be presented on Wikipedia's roster lists, unless multiple refs will be used, and if colleges are added, these will be specifically cited via per player basis. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

At least on WP:FL reviews from years ago, the general sentiment was that one source is sufficient if info is reasonably navigable off that page. In the worst case, extra refs can be added. And then technically speaking, WP:V only requires that info is verifiable (not necessarily cited), which colleges are. Only challenged or likely to be challenged info needs citations ;-) —Bagumba (talk) 15:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Things like college and DOB ARE on nba.com, just at the drill down to the player pages (from the roster link already provided). There is no reason that we have to source differently than it is today. We are moving far afield of the point - which is to assess if captaincy is kept on the WP roster template. Rikster2 (talk) 20:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Update All |note=C have been removed from the rosters on NBA team season and NBA Finals pages. On those pages, where |inj=yes was also present, I removed them, as it's trivial now if they were injured at the end of the season. There's still 100s of other historical team season pages with "inj=yes" on them.—Bagumba (talk) 09:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

• I kind of agree with the decision. It seems to me that college media guides seem to list captains historically like it is important and NBA team Media Guides (which seem to be harder to rustle up) don't seem to as much. Is this the logic? I think that is what User:Bagumba is saying.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  i think the concept doesnt exist in NBA anymore. But random editors still add them, thinking it must be their star player. Then historically, nobody has indicated a way to comprehensively source them. —Bagumba (talk) 15:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Don't the refs talk to a player from each team prior to the tip off? Presumably that's the captain. I've always thought that this is given to the player with the longest tenure regardless of playing time. Either way, at this point it's hard to source this fact. Howard the Duck (talk) 05:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think in the old days, only designated captains were officially allowed to talk to the refs. At some point, that was abandoned (or just not publicly advertised?).—Bagumba (talk) 08:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  That was abandoned but I thought captains were still discussing stuff with the refs before tip off... I am still noticing this on TV but the refs may be talking to random players now. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Unsourced sections at NBA Finals article

I recently discovered that both the Bulls dynasty section and the Spurs and Lakers dominance section are entirely unsourced, and I tagged them accordingly. It would be nice to get the page in better shape before this year's Finals, when there will almost certainly be a spike in readership. Anyone who is willing and able to pitch in with citations to reliable sources would be greatly appreciated, thanks. Left guide (talk) 05:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Plenty of other sparsely sourced sections there too. These types of pages would be better with more comprehensive sources, with expert input on the overall highlights. Otherwise, it's swayed by editors/fans putting in their best memories. And the "dynasty" and "era" headings in all sports pages is quite monotonous. —Bagumba (talk) 09:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Scoot Henderson plus-minus

Would it be WP:UNDUE to include in the WP:LEAD the sentence that "Henderson has achieved two of the three worst single-game plus-minus totals (-56 & -58) in NBA history"? Should I ask this at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• Based on lack of responses, I will request advice at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
• See Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Scoot_Henderson.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

List of NBA awards

User:BeFriendlyGoodSir and I have been talking about changes needed at the listing at List of NBA awards. Basically we were thinking about in season awards NBA Player of the month, Coach of the month, Player of the Week and Rookie of the Month seem to all be official NBA awards that we don't list or even have articles for. In addition, the NBA CUP MVP seems like it is official enough to be listed in that infobox. Thoughts?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

They are mentioned separately in each NBA season's article (see 2023–24 NBA season#Players of the Week) but not in List of NBA awards as you say. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Infoboxes are meant to be a summary of the prose. I don't think the monthly awards are mentioned at the prose at all. Howard the Duck (talk) 06:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The lead sentence currently limits the scope to annual awards, similar to List of Major League Baseball awards. Do sources talk about all the historical winners collectively, as opposed to only mentioning them for a given season? —Bagumba (talk) 07:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

List of Major League Baseball awards#Reliever of the Year mentions Reliever of the Month Award and now-defunct Delivery Man of the Month Award which have their own articles. Also, MLB also has Major League Baseball Rookie of the Month Award, Major League Baseball Pitcher of the Month Award, and Major League Baseball Player of the Month Award.- BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Basketball Reference POTM list, Basketball Reference POTW list, Basketball Reference ROTM list, Basketball Reference COTM list. RS sources to support? I found many RS for winners in a given month. Haven't looked for RS on historical winners collectively. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 23:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Stat sites are typically not used to establish notability. WP:LISTN needs to be met.—Bagumba (talk) 01:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Jayson Tatum named Eastern Conference Player of the Month after leading Celtics to 9-1 record in February, The Most Player Of The Month Awards: LeBron Has More Than Kobe And Jordan Combined, LeBron James Is Undoubtedly The NBA’s Player Of The Decade. No One Else Is Even Close., Mavs' Luka Doncic Named February's Western Conference Player of Month BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

What does LeBron do with all those Player of the Month awards? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:34, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Every NBA Eastern and Western Conference Player of the Week award for 2023-24 - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Those are some sources I found. I don't see any collective historical winner list that includes ALL of them from a single RS. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

But I did find annual breakdowns of POTM and POTW records if that is enough? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Mosts of those sites are amateurish and bloggy and not what I consider reliable (Fansided, Fan Network, SB Nation). Also, WP:LISTN requires that the group be discussed, not just mention of one person winning.

One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been.

—Bagumba (talk) 03:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like those MLB of the Month records should be AfD'd then. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Namely, Major League Baseball Player of the Week Award, Major League Baseball Rookie of the Month Award, Major League Baseball Pitcher of the Month Award, Major League Baseball Player of the Month Award, Major League Baseball Reliever of the Year Award, Delivery Man of the Month Award - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Major League Baseball Reliever of the Year Award seems ok. —Bagumba (talk) 05:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Typo. meant to say Major League Baseball Reliever of the Month Award - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It could be a good litmus test. —Bagumba (talk) 05:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger, turns out NBA Rookie of the Month Award already exists and was created in 2009. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it is fair to say if POTM, POTW, or COTM were created, they would likely remain up. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I would create it myself if I was confident that it will stay up. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 01:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Opinions requested re: NBA Most Valuable Player Award

One editor insists on adding this.

I think it's superfluous, junky, and wholly unnecessary.

What say the others? SportsGuy789 (talk) 02:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

A related policy is WP:ONUS:

While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included...The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

—Bagumba (talk) 11:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

task forces

Resolved

Based on the conversation at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 44#WP:NBA project main page needs a revamp, the "inactive" task forces should probably be removed from WikiProject,. As a beginner Wikipedian, I was unbelievably confused with them being there. "Currently, there are eight task forces related to the NBA, and one related to the WNBA." I would remove it myself but I am not sure how. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

• Question - How do I edit the Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association? The featured list includes tons of articles that need WP:POSTMOVE changes from "National Basketball Association" to "NBA". - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:54, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

List of NBA players born outside the United States

List of NBA players born outside the United States (formerly named List of foreign NBA players) strangely now lists some players born in the US. Go figure.—Bagumba (talk) 05:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

As I recall, the article used to be more focused on nationality than birthplace. The article was moved due to concerns over the term "foreign," but the actual scope of the page is still poorly defined. I do think birthplaces are a more practical focus. We certainly shouldn't be including guys like Matt Costello, who was born in the US and became naturalized to play for Cote D'Ivoire years after his cup of coffee in the NBA. Zagalejo (talk) 04:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

People have only one birthplace, which avoids the unwieldy nationality and incorrect assumptions about which countries have jus soli and players with dual citizenship. One caveat is that the NBA never counted players born overseas to US military parents. There's enough articles talking about non-US players to meet WP:LISTN, and then grouping by birthplace is an editorial content decision.—Bagumba (talk) 04:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Does the NBA still have a master list of who they consider to be "international" players? Back in the day, the book version of the Official NBA Encyclopedia listed everyone by country, but that only went up to the year 2000 or thereabouts. I doubt we'll ever see a new edition of that book. Zagalejo (talk) 18:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

They seem to have press releases before each season, like this for 2023–24. Note that for notability purposes, we should go off what independent sources say, and not necessarily be a slave to the NBA wishes. —Bagumba (talk) 20:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - similar conversation in the past Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 39#List of foreign NBA players— Preceding unsigned comment added by BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk • contribs) 02:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Discrepancies between Basketball-reference.com and NBA.com

User:爨龘龘 seems to be making a lot of edits that disagree with Basketball-reference.com, but states that these are numbers from NBA.com. Has anyone noticed a lot of differences between the two.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Over a decade ago, I remember observing that NBA.com would sometimes round stats differently from basketball-reference.com. Does basketball-reference still provide year-by-year playoff stats for each player? Or do they break everything down by series now? Zagalejo (talk) 18:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

BR still has both year-by-year and series-by-series.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

In sections like "Per Game" and "Totals" there's now a "Playoffs" tab. —Bagumba (talk) 14:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Thanks! Zagalejo (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Do we prefer NBA.com rounding to Sports Reference?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding this diff, I think basketball-reference is correct to round down. Both NBA.com and basketball-reference have the same total number of minutes. Mathematically, the average should be 34.9444444.... I have not looked closely at these things in many years, so I don't know how common these discrepancies are. Zagalejo (talk) 03:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The User I opened this thread with seems to mostly correct these discrepancies. I think he has found thousands in his four years on WP.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:14, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

If we look at the game logs, playing time there is recorded with seconds as well. I wonder if it's a matter of one rounding to minutes and then dividing by games, and the other rounding after division, accounting for the .1 difference? The brain dead thing would just be to go w/ NBA.com, since it's their league. Otherwise, if one really wanted to be thorough (for minutes played?!?!), footnote the discrepancy. —Bagumba (talk) 05:51, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It's possible that the recording of seconds is leading to discrepancies. JamesOn Curry only played a few seconds in his NBA career. NBA.com lists his MPG as 0.1, but basketball reference lists it as 0.0. In that case, NBA.com is arguably more correct. Zagalejo (talk) 12:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Although NBA.com has a different MPG for Curry in his career line, so who knows... Zagalejo (talk) 12:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Conference finals mvp

Why can’t we just include conference finals MVP’s for Jokic, Curry, Tatum and Butler and players moving forward? I get it’s new but so it’s clutch player of the year and that’s on the wiki resumes. I feel conference finals MVPs is a significant award, especially being named after Magic and Bird, and more than likely the greats will win (like finals mvp) so it’s a relevant award I feel, plus it shows as well who won that conference if they didn’t win the finals but won conference finals mvp. 73.176.156.52 (talk) 06:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

There's never been a consensus to include the clutch award.—Bagumba (talk) 07:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Bagumba is correct; if any particular NBA-related award doesn't appear at WP:NBASTYLE#NBA highlights, then there is no consensus for its inclusion in infoboxes, and thus by default stays out of infoboxes unless and until a contrary consensus is reached per the WP:ONUS policy clause which stipulates The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Left guide (talk) 09:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Why does Luka have western Conference Finals MVP in his box resume but others like Jokic, Tatum, Steph, etc... don't? Again, it seems these resumes are very biased when it comes to who gets what included. Luka got like 30 and a lot aren't even necessary from his overseas days. Just saying, if we don't include for Jokic, Tatum, Steph, etc... keep it consistent and don't include for Luka. 2603:300A:1618:EC00:A0BE:6850:7D71:20C7 (talk) 13:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

All players who have won Conference Finals MVP award should have their award mentioned on their resume in my opinion. Luka, Steph, Jokic, Tatum, Jimmy and Jaylen Brown. All. It's literally an award and it got mentioned many other basketball websites such as basketballreference.com. Conference Finals MVP players have their award in their resume. It should be on Wikipedia too. Mypthegoat (talk) 22:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

And Luka's other awards or achievenmets are all legal and must be mentioned. It's players whole career resume for a reason. If you are an editor of another player you should have a right to edit that part. Mypthegoat (talk) 22:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• I strongly Support Conference finals MVP awards for all prominent displays such as infoboxes and templates (both template for the award and link in championship team template). I.e., the way baseball includes LCSMVP in templates like {{2023 Texas Rangers}}, we should include conference finals MVP in templates like {{Denver Nuggets 2022–23 NBA champions}}-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:55, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose adding conference finals MVP. It is not a terminal MVP award and we have not included them for this reason. It is one of many ways to manage the volume of bullets in the infobox, especially for highly accomplished players like Jokic, Curry, Tatum etc. The highlights list is not supposed to be every single accomplishment for a player. I have no objection of people want to add the designation to the NBA champion template, though you could see a lot of the same player winning both, which is a little different than baseball. Rikster2 (talk) 14:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment A related guideline is MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:

  When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article...The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content.

  —Bagumba (talk) 14:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  I understand why we don’t include it, but another good reason on why we could include it is because it also highlights for readers that this player reached the Finals and lost, but his performance in the playoffs was elite enough to warrant a conference finals mvp. For the most part only the greats will get this award besides the every now and then. 2601:249:1B81:1170:19CA:F072:B3CA:41 (talk) 15:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  • Making the Finals and losing has never been something acknowledged in the infobox, that’s about winning championships. Rightfully making the finals would be in the prose and in cases where the player article has a comprehensive list of accomplishments as a section of the article. Rikster2 (talk) 16:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

    I strongly support the inclusion as well. The perception of the award as a relevant accolade has reached a point where even foreign media report separately on it: [2]. To say the award would have „equal validity“, as some said, is just false. Nobody discusses the inclusion of the nomination into the all-defensive second team, and yet when it comes to rewarding the Conference Finals MVP, there seems to be a problem. I support the inclusion of the award under the NBA All-x team selections. SdHb (talk) 06:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, mainly because bloating the infobox with new low-level awards dilutes the value of real historically-significant awards. It blatantly violates WP:NOTEVERYTHING, WP:UNDUE and other policy clauses. It's better for a player like LeBron or Curry to have 10 well-respected awards in the infobox, rather than 20 of which half are relatively meaningless. Left guide (talk) 17:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Put another way, adding Conference Finals MVP and Clutch Award to the infobox artificially elevates them to a status of equal validity as regular season MVP, All-Star appearances, All-NBA team selections, DPOY, and the like not seen in the real world, which is a clear case of WP:FALSEBALANCE. Left guide (talk) 01:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Ay, just saying, look at Twitter and the reactions from Brown winning over Tatum. Seeing a whole lot “Tatum led series in pts Rebs and assists for Celtics but brown won” tweets. People care and pay attention to this award. It’s given right after the series win on the podium in front of the crowd and national television 2601:249:1B81:1170:875:9247:423D:562A (talk) 04:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

People on Twitter got upset about a girl that dunked Pop Tarts in ranch dressing, that doesn't make it notable.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Technically, it does make it notable. Notability is determined by society, not you. 12.178.161.66 (talk) 16:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

stuff being on Twitter doesn’t make anything inherently notable from an encyclopedic standpoint. Rikster2 (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Your arguments are ludicrous. Two awards being in the same info-box does not in any way imply that they are of equal validity or equal esteem. And the conference finals MVP is not a "lower-level" award anyway. A player is rewarded for being the best player in the second biggest series of the year and leading their team to the finals. It also notifies people that the player has a finals appearance, which is no small feat. The award is a direct and objective measure of playoff success. Bagumba's argument-- "The less information in an info box, the better" is ridiculous too. Have you seen LeBron's infobox? Do you think his First Team Parade All-American selections or his McDonald's All-American MVP awards are more significant achievements than if he were to get a conference finals MVP? If the goal truly is to convey the most important information to the reader, direct indicators of playoff success should arguably be placed higher than All-Star selections and/or All-NBA selections. The conference finals award ought to be included in info-boxes, and it should go above or below MVP. The only sound argument against it is the fact that the award's title is so long, and therefore makes things a bit less clean and concise. 12.178.161.66 (talk) 06:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Your argument that it is not a "lower-level" award is baseless. The WP:BURDEN of proof is on you, and your various IPs.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Honors at various levels are not compared. Professional honors are considered as a set, college honors are considered as a set and high school honors are considered as a set. There are only about 5 high school highlights that go in the infobox list, a much higher percentage of NBA highlights do. In no case is every single honor included, otherwise for a player like LeBron you’d have an absurdly long infobox. The point of the infobox is not meant to include everythingRikster2 (talk) 12:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I gave a thorough argument why it should be considered among the highest level of awards. I understand by "baseless" you mean I need a concrete citation supporting it. The NBA's official award history page lists the awards under "latest". They also have a page dedicated to the award here. These two pages are so available, obvious, and impossible to miss that I'm sure you have seen them already. As others have said, the NBA also officially acknowledges these awards at the end of the close-out games during the celebration. They are literally named in honor of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. It is as close to objectively being held in high-esteem as any award. Where must the awards be listed such that they can be regarded in high enough esteem to be listed in info-boxes? Does it need to be listed on the history page under the more "official" bullet points, rather than merely under "latest"? If that's the case, where is KAT's social justice award in his info-box? Why can't I find any Twyman-Stokes Teammate of the year awards in info-boxes? Where is the Hustle award? Where is the Clutch player award? I understand that I may be straw-manning you; I'm only searching for consistency.

If I'm not understanding something, let me know. I only learned about these "talk pages" last night, and you can see I don't even have a Wikipedia account. I am just an NBA fan who wants to see players rewarded for their feats and achievements, and Conference Finals MVP awards are greater feats than 80% of the stuff typically listed in info-boxes, as well as being more telling of the player's identity because it concretely indicates playoff success. One of the first things a page visitor ought to see is that the player led his team to the finals. Put it in the info-box or no, I don't care that much. But know that these citations that you seek are a bit more arbitrary than you seem to think. 12.178.161.66 (talk) 16:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean if we're being completely honest, is "Mr. Show-Me Basketball 2016" more applicable to an NBA's player career resume over Conference Finals MVP? If so, then so be it. "Mr. Georgia Basketball 2016" has more reason to be on here over Conference Finals MVP in the NBA? I don't know, y'all keep telling me there's a criteria this and criteria that but having stuff like Mr. Show-Me Basketball, Mr. Georgia, Serbian Player of the Year, etc... seems like that criteria is convenient based for sure.2603:300A:1618:EC00:159B:96F9:49AE:6EC8 (talk) 14:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Like I said, there are about 5 high school achievements that qualify for the infobox, state Mr basketball is one of them. There is already a significantly lower bar for NBA achievements, a reflection that the pro level achievements are more important. But the other thing that has always been the case for the basketball infobox is that “runner up” finishes and accomplishments intentionally weren’t added to the infobox. All that stuff is great for the prose, nobody is saying it’s useless. Rikster2 (talk) 16:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I respect the reasoning for sure. I also agree that not every award or feat should be listed just because it’s relevant. However, in terms of conference finals MVP, I feel it adds more value and credibility to that specific resume or player over certain other awards or feats, just my opinion. It tells a greater story in a short and concise phrase “Conference Finals MVP” - best player in the that playoff conference essentially (not always but usually). I’ll stop with this one, I respect all the choices! 2600:1008:B0C9:A678:712B:CF7:B9CF:3C0A (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Bagumba's argument-- "The less information in an info box, the better" is ridiculous too.: It was not an "argument". It was marked "comment", and is merely a quote from a Wikipedia guideline. —Bagumba (talk) 14:38, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

+1. 2A02:3030:619:5347:61F9:1EE6:DF54:6EF8 (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support, the Conference Finals are significant and important series, with the NBA awarding trophies for them. The NBA recognizes these as major and important awards – there is even an award presentation at the end of the series – and Wikipedia should reflect that. H-Hurry (talk) 15:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support Thinking pragmatically, I just don't think it is productive to keep pushing back on this. It's an official award that is getting a lot of attention, and I don't feel that it's fundamentally less important than the All-Star Game MVPs or something like All-Rookie Second Team. Zagalejo (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support per reasons given above. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 20:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this, they do the same thing with MLB when they give the MVP of the conference championship. Just because it’s a recently added award doesn’t mean you can’t added since it really has value just like with the In Season tournament championship. Agararol81 (talk) 02:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support like I said above it's a legimate award and it's getting mentioned everywhere, it has a significance important too. Many basketball websites includes them so why not Wikipedia too. It should be mentioned for all 6 players in their resume so far. Mypthegoat (talk) 22:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per arguments above. In addition, all of the awards should be completely removed from infobox. – sbaio 11:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Suport per arguments stated above. It's a legimate award that the NBA recognizes as a major award to declare the best player of the each Conference series. Just because it’s an award that was introduced in 2022 it doesn’t mean it has no value so I agree it should be included for every winner moving forward. Agararol81 (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  This is a legit take. The soccer and ice hockey player infoboxes do not have a separate parameters for awards and achievements, while basketball, American football and baseball have these, and these ultimately turn into a discussion such as this on which award or milestone to add on the infobox. Cristiano Ronaldo's infobox is so much shorter than Lebron' s, for example. Unless the specific award was discussed in depth in the article, I don't think it should be listed in the infobox. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  There's a certain segment of editors that dont read prose, and just concentrate on ibxs and tables. These awards are missing in most leads, but debate rarely happens on prose. Ideally, the ibx should mostly reflect what's already in the lead. —Bagumba (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  So in theory, only the awards and achievements found in leads should be in the infobox. Is this where you are getting at? Howard the Duck (talk) 07:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  Honestly that's not a bad idea, and could make for a good simple rule-of-thumb that more or less aligns with WP:DUE. Left guide (talk) 08:00, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'd somewhat agree, but again we'd have another discussion like this everywhere. I don't think all of Lebron's awards are discussed on the lead or even at the article in depth at all. Howard the Duck (talk) 08:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  FWIW at WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS: A good rule of thumb is to only list awards that would be expected to be mentioned in the lead if it were a featured article. Other awards less notable to the biography should instead be mentioned in the body of the article. —Bagumba (talk) 08:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  The problem with this is that kind of definition is different for everyone. What kind of award is suitable for an FA lead? Leads - and infoboxes - are sumamaries of the prose. I haven't read Lebron's article; is it mentioned that he has a 4-6 Finals record? That's a major argument starter in popular media when someone brings up if he's the GOAT.

  For example, just in this discussion, WP:NBA regulars are near uninamous in excluding this award, but "outsiders" are atthe very least open to the idea. Then someone brings up an all-encompassing Luka cabal LOL. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  Just now realized there's a page called Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/What merits inclusion in an infobox that offers project-level advice for this exact scenario. Left guide (talk) 07:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  "[U]se your judgment and give appropriate weight to all factors" is very helpful in avoiding discussions such as this. Howard the Duck (talk) 07:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Honestly can't say I remember editing this. FWIW, it's not oft-cited. —Bagumba (talk) 09:15, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Let’s just include Conference Finals MVP for every one who’s won it. It’s on basketball reference and it’s a pretty significant award considering it’s announced right after the game in front of the national televised audience. And for the most part only the top tier players will win it as we’ve seen so far, so it’s gonna be relevant. It shows just how elite that player was in that playoff run/series. 2601:249:1B81:1170:F4C3:F71E:DADB:2B2C (talk) 18:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

+1. Very good summary, let‘s do it. 2A02:3030:617:53C9:19A:29F:B893:E1D4 (talk) 21:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

"Gonna be relevant" is textbook WP:CRYSTAL.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose secondary award, may be appropriate in prose. Also, majority !votes don't always win.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Look at Luka's award box and tell me whether Trofeo Costa De Sol champion is worth more or more relevant than a conference finals NBA MVP. Like let's be honest here, this wiki is hugely bias towards Luka, as you guys even included Conference Finals MVP for him before someone pointed it out and eventually it was taken out. Like who are we kidding here, EB Next Generation Tournament champion qualifies to be in a players basketball resume but not NBA Conference Finals MVP, HA. I needed a good chuckle, Trofeo Costa De Sol, EB Next Generation, etc.. Luka Stans getting wild. 2603:300A:1618:EC00:43:DA4A:D41D:10DF (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. Yes, the awards are new(ish), so we don't have a lot of precedence to rely upon, but third-party coverage of these awards has pretty strong since their introduction and has increased in the ensuing couple of years. So, by Wikipedia standards, their notability has been demonstrated. And since these are significant awards, a player winning them is a significant career achievement, and should be in their infobox. oknazevad (talk) 15:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support inclusion third-party coverage of the award is significant. It is treated as a major award by the media. Judging by the comments of players themselves like Jaylen Brown, the players treat it as such as well. See, for example Why Jaylen Brown was surprised to win series MVP after leading Celtics to NBA Finals: ‘I don’t ever win s—‘ New York Times]--User:Namiba 16:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. How does consensus work? There are significantly more people in favor of the award's inclusion than against at this point. Time to put the award in the info-box. Are you going to keep reverting edits until the end of time? Sullenwolf (talk) 15:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  It hurts their Luka agenda, they need to include as much as they can for Luka but not the other players. It’s actually evident and noticeable how bias Wiki towards Luka 2600:1008:B211:C506:297A:F96A:A45A:7A81 (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'm in favor of including the award, but this argument doesn't help anything. There is no grand conspiracy to elevate Luka. Different people work on different articles, and edits aren't monitored in a consistent manner. That's just the nature of Wikipedia. Zagalejo (talk) 23:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  The more likely situation is that whatever is listed for the NBA seems to mistakenly give carte blanche for similar treatment for other leagues. And few are knowledgable enough on global basketball to perhaps remove some, which anyways might start accusations of NBA or even U.S. bias. —Bagumba (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  How does consensus work?: See Wikipedia:Consensus. —Bagumba (talk) 00:04, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Game 1 or game 1

I've seen it both ways (including inconsistencies within individual articles) and didn't see anything in the style guidelines. When referring to a specific playoff game in a series, should it be referred to as "Game X" or "game X", where X represents the game number? Useight (talk) 15:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, MOS:CAPS begins: Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 22 § Capitalization of "Week" in "Week #" in Articles, they seem to have went with lowercase. —Bagumba (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess I can get to lower-casing the upper-cased ones that I find, even though I find the upper-cased version to be more aesthetically pleasing. Useight (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

New stats pages

Just created three new NBA career stats pages:

• List of NBA career personal fouls leaders
• List of NBA career technical fouls leaders
• List of NBA career ejections leaders

I started with a simple list of rankings, names, and units but I was wondering if it's possible to get a fuller table with more complete player info like the other pages in {{NBA statistical leaders}}. I tagged them with {{List to table}} accordingly. I lack the energy and inclination to work through all of the wikitable source coding since it's not something I'm super efficient at, but if anyone else is willing to take it on, it would be extremely welcomed and appreciated.

p.s. the technical fouls page can also benefit from updates since the full 20-player overview-level master list I cited is from June 2021 and some of the players on the list have been active since then, so more recent citations for them on an individual basis would be helpful. Left guide (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

NBA win–loss record page needs assistance

An IP editor has been making edits, that while I am assuming are done with well-meaning intent, have been largely unconstructive. Please see the message I left on the article's talk page for further context, but the main gist of it is these edits have made the article bloated and less presentable.

Here is a comparison between:

• The April 26, 2024 version, prior to the bulk of these IP edits.
• The current version of the page (at least as of me leaving this message)
• The June 25, 2024 version prior to this IP editor reverting my restoration of my attempt to incorporate some of the info they've added, while also gutting the bloated-ness and undue weight added to topics such as the NBA Cup over on that page.

It is worth noting this editor has not made any edit summaries save for "dead url" on the most recent one, which I assume means they've read my edit summaries asking them to go to the talk page discussion and ignored that.

Also pinging @Wiiformii: as you reverted their edits, but then undid this stating the reversion was accidental. I do mostly agree with your initial assessment of the edits being unconstructive. Aside from the issue I mentioned in my post on the talk page discussion, the IP editor(s) have also added a slew of overlinking. Soulbust (talk) 02:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Note the third version I linked above is the version I believe would be best to work on going forward. Soulbust (talk) 02:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't notice! Thank you for letting me know because I saw 7 revisions and assumed good faith in the edits, I did not notice the removal of dead links and manual of style issues, but I also think that revision is the most appropriate, I just think the IP needs to possibly read the manual of style for articles. Wiiformii (talk) 02:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

There are definitely some things I think are constructive, such as the various notes about teams' histories regarding their ABA records. However, a good chunk of their edits are not all too helpful imo, particularly the undue weight placed on the NBA Cup information and the over-linking of pages throughout the article, especially in the see also section. Soulbust (talk) 02:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Portland Trail Blazers

Portland Trail Blazers has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

G League expansion drafts

Were there expansion drafts in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019? I can't find info on these. I'm seeing recently added red links to {{NBA G League drafts}}. SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Not that I know of no, the recent one that comes to mind is the Charlotte Hornets. ChillyWilly824 (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

You're referring to the NBA I think. I'm talking about the G League.

Themanwithnowifi, can you please weigh in? You added the red links, I'm imagining you're the person with good references. SportsGuy789 (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

[3], [4], [5], [6] Those are the ones who are still red. I made already two others. Themanwithnowifi (talk) 04:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Center dispute

Why are we subjected to a certain country for one player, while there are other NBA players not displaying their home country wording? Why not use the universal word “Center” instead of possibly confusing people. ChillyWilly824 (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

MOS:TIES is a site-wide guideline. It avoids re-inventing the wheel every time there is an English-variant dispute. Have you read it? —Bagumba (talk) 12:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, for the record Basketball Canada uses the -re spelling here while TSN uses both on the same page -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Template:Los Angeles Lakers 2023 NBA Cup champions and Template:NBA Cup MVPs

I understand consensus was to include the honor in the infobox... but a god damn navbox? Are we as a WikiProject really going to allow this TEMPLATECREEP? SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Harder to argue against a template once an accolade is deemed worthy of an ibx entry. —Bagumba (talk) 05:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Paul George Nickname

I was wondering if we should change the text in the "Nicknamed" box on Paul Georges page from PG-13 to PG-8 since his previous number, 13, is retired by the 76ers, and I was provided these two sources from a user that makes note of the PG-8 nickname. ReallyAmazingDude13 (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If you are referring to the lead, MOS:BADNICK says:

Highlighting uncommon or disputed appellations in the lead section gives them undue weight, and may also be a more general neutrality problem if the phrase is laudatory or critical.

Too early to consider it common. —Bagumba (talk) 00:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: So we should keep it as PG-13 until it becomes commonized? ReallyAmazingDude13 (talk) 00:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Best NBA Player ESPY Award Infobox Inclusion

I happened to see that the Luka Dončić article now has Best NBA Player ESPY Award in his infobox.

Previously there was a big debate above on Conference Finals MVPs being listed on infoboxes to which there was no consensus, hence, this was removed from Luka's page.

But I just saw the ESPY Award on Luka's infobox and I want to get people's thoughts if this should be included in all NBA players' infoboxes should they have won/win? I personally oppose this as it's not even an official NBA award. Open to your thoughts. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 15:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Shawn Kemp has a second and fourth-team Parade All-American award listed in his infobox, the ESPY awards seem to be a bit more notable than those. Alvaldi (talk) 19:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 20 § ESPY Awards was to not include in the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 04:59, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Got this.

Thank you. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The AfD has been relisted twice. —Bagumba (talk) 07:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

NBA Cup Champion - Players' Infoboxes

I’d like to ask for feedback on where the titles "NBA Cup Champion" and "NBA Cup MVP" should be ranked in players' infoboxes. Should they come after the NBA Championship, MVP, and Finals MVP but before All-Star selections, or should they be placed lower?

We might need to reevaluate its placement after the second or third tournament. For now, I'm fine with the current order, but I would appreciate any thoughts on whether we should discuss and vote on where it should rank now or wait until the end of the second tournament. Raphael North (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

To me it’s dumb to have this ahead of more prominent NBA awards. Rikster2 (talk) 21:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I dont believe any obituary would mention a player winning an NBA Cup before their All-Star or all-league selections. Maybe consensus changes and we remove it now that we see the consequences of implementing it. Really, is it more prominent than LeBron's scoring or assist titles? —Bagumba (talk) 02:07, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

This was my concern when it was added. The order typically starts with championships, but this meant actual championships before the add of the NBA Cup. In-season tournaments were excluded because, at the end of the day, they aren’t meaningful. It doesn’t mean they aren’t notable and shouldn’t be in the body of the article. IMO, the NBA tried (and succeeded) to make news with something different and folks pointed to that news and mistook it for something significant. But, no, the NBA Cup shouldn’t be ahead of All-Star selections or All-League honors. That’s crazy. Rikster2 (talk) 14:17, 13 August 2024‎

I’m not disagreeing with your comment about the current significance of the NBA Cup, but I still think it deserves a spot in player infoboxes. The media, fans, and player involvement last year, plus the NBA's solid concept and media buzz for 2024, all support that. I checked out players with similar new awards, they’re still listed—like Messi with the 2023 MLS Cup which is nothing compared to his many Champions League titles.

Based on what I've seen from the NBA, media, players, and fans and the discussion here from January to March, I don’t doubt that the NBA Cup belongs in those player infoboxes. What do you think of this as a compromise? We include the NBA Cup in player infoboxes but place it at the bottom for now. We then reassess each year and adjust its position as its significance grows or take it out if it wont hold up to what the league and media project it to be - do you think this would be a good step @Rikster2 and @Bagumba as a concept for discussion and vote? I am relatively new to wikipedia so I am still learning how to navigate this space. Maybe we can get more voices/feedback on this topic to get a better picture in regards to this topic. Raphael North (talk) 15:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

The NBA Cup should be towards the bottom of the pro highlights under any records. I think it should be either directly above or below the Slam Dunk/3-point contest. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

At WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS, the lesser highlights (grouped under 11) are to be listed in reverse chnological order. Are you suggesting a new category after that which assures that its towards the bottom?—Bagumba (talk) 07:13, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

After looking at all of that, it should probably be in 17th place. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 16:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Slots 12–16 were more for overall career accolades, so it seems like you'd make NBA Cup at 12, and move the others to 13–17? —Bagumba (talk) 08:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 09:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. Raphael North (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball § All-Star Five in infobox

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball § All-Star Five in infobox. —Bagumba (talk) 04:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Statmuse

FYI that at best, there's no consensus that Statmuse is reliable (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 400 § StatMuse). As it'll pretty much spit out an answer for anything, it's WP:OR and the answer is trivial unless reliable secondary sources mention it. To that extent, it's also trivial to pull out stats from a site like basketball-reference.com, though nobody will presumably question basic stats (e.g. season scoring average), which one assumes is also mentioned in a secondary source somewhere.—Bagumba (talk) 05:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: StatMuse is like those silly factoids that commentators use to kill time between plays, i.e. First left-handed player to make five three-pointers during the third quarter on a Tuesday night full moon, colloquially referred to as "ESPN stats". Not a secondary source, and certainly not sufficient to establish due weight in a global general-interest encyclopedia such as this. It's been spammed en masse across NBA-related articles and it's an ever-growing problem. Left guide (talk) 07:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

And its the go-to content for amateur writers at ClutchPoints, FanNation, SBNation, etc. —Bagumba (talk) 08:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: List of NBA regular season records is probably the worst offender regarding StatMuse and similar sources, especially in relation to how prominent and important the topic is. That page needs help. Left guide (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I always remove StatMuse when I see it and try to find a reliable source or place a tag for a better citation. – sbaio 13:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)