Talk:514 Cherry

What is the southern terminus?

Will the line, at opening, go all the way to Lakeshore, or is the Distillery Lane loop its proper end point? If it is the latter, parts of the article need an update. Radagast (talk) 19:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The loop is just before the railway bridge, across from the southeast corner of the Distillery District. I think some work would have to be done before they could squeeze streetcars under the bridge to Lakeshore or beyond. Secondarywaltz (talk) 19:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

According to Steve Munro, work is required to widen the railway underpass so that streetcars will fit under, and eventually connect to a Queens Quay East LRT if funding ever materializes. At this point the bridge work isn't even on the TTC's list of projects waiting for approval. So that loop is the southern terminus for the foreseeable future. Ivanvector (talk) 20:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, article is updated. Radagast (talk) 12:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Merger

I support the merger. I think Cherry Street streetcar line can be easily integrated into this. --Natural R_X 13:12, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose One article is about the construction of new infrastructure and the other is about a service that only partly uses that section of new trackage. A series of shorter articles is much easier to read, especially on handheld devices. They are related and adequately linked, but there is no need to stuff everything into one page. Secondarywaltz (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

You're talking about it like we're shoehorning all the content into one article, when in reality, a bunch of it would be unnecessary to transfer over in the merge. There is significant overlap that would be eliminated, and we'd be looking at a few extra sentences, max. --Natural R_X 16:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

There is very little duplication. The construction of the new track and related history is not and does not need to be detailed in the 514 article. The new additional streetcar service, along the section of King Street through downtown Toronto, is something beyond one portion of the route. I believe that articles should be kept to smaller bites of information, and we can agree to disagree on that principle. Secondarywaltz (talk) 16:55, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I think we always will disagree on that principle. But what follows is my perspective of the additional content that would be transferred (italic bold), which isn't a heck of a lot IMO. This is just the text of the article; the infobox would be taken out, and pictures can be added:

The Cherry Street streetcar line is a light rail streetcar route in Toronto, Ontario. It was built by Waterfront Toronto, in cooperation with the Toronto Transit Commission, to service the West Don Lands neighbourhood and the Distillery District. Service on the line is proposed to start in 2016 as part of route 514, which will also service King Street and Dufferin Street.

History

In 2007, the plan for the Cherry Street streetcar line was finalized.

Construction began in 2012 on the line along Sumach Street and Cherry Street, from King Street to Distillery Lane. This section was projected to cost $90 million CAD. In April and May of 2014, the TTC constructed the junction to the Cherry Street line at the corner of King Street East and Sumach Street.

The 2016 budget, released in November, 2015, did not provide funding for regular streetcar service on Cherry Street in 2016. Service for part of 2016 would have cost $800,000; a full year of service would cost $2,100,000.

In November, 2015, as part of a proposal to revise service in the areas of Cherry Street and Queens Quay East, the TTC is suggesting the creation of a new 514 streetcar route that would run from the Mill Street streetcar loop on Cherry Street via King Street to the Dufferin Gate Loop.

Route

The line, from King Street to Distillery Lane, is approximately 700 metres long, and will have just three stops on it. The northern portion of the Cherry Street line is along Sumach Street from Eastern Avenue to a junction with the King Street line. The southern portion of the line ends in a loop on the north side the railway viaduct across from Distillery Lane.

Both streetcar tracks run on the east side of the street with a tree-lined median separating them from two automobile lanes and bike lanes on either side of them. The entire width is 32.5 metres, including sidewalks 5 metres wide.

Future

Waterfront Toronto’s plan is to eventually extend the Cherry Street line south of the Gardiner Expressway into the Port Lands. It would meet with the proposed East Bayfront LRT running from Union Station along Queens Quay East to temporarily terminate in a loop west of Parliament Street.

Older history

Between 1917 and 1924, the former Toronto Railway Company and, after 1921, the Toronto Transportation Commission operated the Ashbridge streetcar line into the Port Lands. It connected to the streetcar grid at Queen Street, just west of Broadview Avenue and ran south to Commissioners Street then west to Cherry Street. The line was abandoned because a bridge it used to cross over the railway corridor and the Keating Channel became unsafe for streetcar use.

That makes for a dozen extra sentences, and the potential to make 514 Cherry a well-rounded article. Keeping them separate will likely maintain both of them as permanent Start- or C-class articles individually. --Natural R_X 19:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I must agree with Natural RX. It would make things much clearer without adding much. There is no need to keep two articles that are similar to each other without much room for improvement for either. That is why I suggested the merger in the first place. There is also no separate article about the streetcar track on Bathurst between St. Clair and Bloor used to connect 512 St. Clair with the rest of the streetcar system. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 02:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for adding details to the discussion. You have shown why I have trouble agreeing to a total merge. Much of that information belongs in the Toronto streetcar system article, since things like the former Ashbridge streetcar line and proposed East Bayfront LRT have no relevance to this 514 Cherry route. I think that would trim things down substantially. Secondarywaltz (talk) 15:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support, but I think the Cherry Street streetcar line material belongs in Toronto streetcar system, not 514 Cherry. We have separate articles for every streetcar route (even old ones like 508 Lake Shore and 522 Exhibition West) but no separate articles for individual rail spurs; they're just part of the evolution of the system. But confusingly some of the older pre-numbering routes are named "nnn streetcar line" (Yonge streetcar line, etc) like the Cherry article, so originally I was wondering why we have two articles on the same topic. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support, but, also - agree that merge with Toronto streetcar system is better. Alaney2k (talk) 19:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support, given that rather than a straight merge appropriate content is placed in Toronto streetcar system, etc. Radagast (talk) 18:25, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose: I prefer the separate articles with Cherry Street streetcar line concentrating on the design of the branch and the street (as side of road is not typical in Toronto with the exception of Fleet Street and Queens Quay between Spadina & York), and 514 Cherry concentrating on the service along a route. However, as a compromise, one could convert the entire Cherry Street streetcar line article to become a section of the 514 Cherry article. I think that was proposed above. The 504 King article has something like that for the "Roncesvalles Avenue redesign". We should probably remove the section "Cherry Street extension" from the 504 King article.TheTrolleyPole (talk) 23:43, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Some have suggested putting the content for the Cherry Street streetcar line into the Toronto streetcar system article. I presume this means the Dedicated rights-of-way section. I suppose this would work provided we break the section into sub-sections by line such as Queensway, Fleet/Queens Quay, St. Clair and now Cherry. It also handles the hypothetical case where the Cherry branch may be assigned to a different route in future. (We all thought it would be part of 504 until recently.) But I have been told not to make big additions (a long paragraph being too big) as the article was already very big.TheTrolleyPole (talk) 01:07, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
  • There is a precedent of having a separate article for each streetcar loop (Bingham Loop, High Park Loop, etc.) Thus, the existing Cherry Street streetcar line article can double as a description for the Distillery Loop instead of creating a separate article for it. Someone else has already created a redirect for that purpose. Perhaps we can consider the entire branch line to be an elongated loop.TheTrolleyPole (talk) 00:16, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
  • I have modified the Cherry Street streetcar line article to describe the line as a branch line with a loop rather than a "route" which is what 514 Cherry is. The article has a bit more description of the Distillery Loop a.k.a. Cherry Street Loop (both redirects someone else had earlier added). Thus, a sentence from the 514 Cherry article says: "Streetcars will operate through the financial district and downtown Toronto between Dufferin Gate Loop and the Cherry Street Loop." Thus, by keeping the Cherry Street streetcar line article, we can reference articles describing each end of the 514 Cherry route. Both the Dufferin Gate Loop and Cherry Street Loop articles have some description of the neighbourhood served. The article Toronto streetcar loops also references the Cherry Street streetcar line article via the Distillery Loop redirect. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 23:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
• Support merging. Useddenim (talk) 15:44, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• Merge, The Cherry Street streetcar line article could have simply be renamed to 514 Cherry. A streetcar line construction project on a local road does not have enough notability to become an article of its own. The content in the former can be distributed among a variety of articles that are more inclusive. EelamStyleZ (talk) 00:51, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support, why haven't we done this already? the discussion has resulted in a consensus over six months ago. On the sidenote, I second Ivanvector's motive.C-GAUN (talk) 23:18, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't think there is a consensus yet. Some want to merge into Toronto streetcar system, others into 514 Cherry. A minority (me included) want to keep the article essentially as-is. The article serves to describe the Distillery Loop and complements the Dufferin Gate Loop article. There is a precedent to have separate articles for loops. And like Dufferin Gate Loop, Distillery Loop is attached to a branch line.TheTrolleyPole (talk) 15:25, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support, it's bizarre in the extreme these are two separate articles. Any historical aspects of building the Cherry Line can be included in the 514 Cherry article, the Distillery Loop info can go in an article on that, and other info can be distributed as necessary to the relevant articles. But this is clear case of significant overlap and duplication as per WP:OVERLAP. I see two "Opposes" and everyone else supporting some type of merge/refactor... that seems like as close to perfect consensus as we're going to get. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I have gone ahead with this, as there was consensus. Content has been merged (1 2), and both Cherry Street streetcar line and Distillery Loop have been redirected. --Natural R_X 21:40, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

More links?

Consider the fact that the 508 Lake Shore route used to be in a similar situation as the current Cherry route - providing additional service along King Street. It would therefore be worth making more links between the two, I'd suggest. From 2607:FEA8:32E0:BF:4971:D32:CAE8:B30E (talk) 02:43, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Distillery Loop

Given that 514 Cherry becomes defunct as of October 7, 2018, it looks odd that the descriptions for an active streetcar loop and streetcar branch be buried in an article on a former streetcar route. Thus, I would recommend that we create a new article called "Distillery Loop" and split the sections "Distillery Loop" and "Cherry Street streetcar line" into it. Many other loops have a separate article (Dufferin Gate Loop, Neville Park Loop, Bingham Loop, etc.); Distillery Loop should follow that pattern. After all, the TTC may again reorganize its streetcar routes. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:19, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Note: Distillery Loop exists as a redirect. Secondarywaltz (talk) 21:35, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I know. That means constructing a new article in the sandbox and having an administrator move it after deleting the redirect. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:56, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Another proposal would be to make this a new section of the 504 King article, with Distillery Loop redirecting there too. --Natural R_X 16:17, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

The history of the Distillery Loop and Sumach/Cherry branch is now related to multiple routes (514 & 504). Ideally, it should be in a stand-alone article like for other loops. Why should we be making an exception for Distillery Loop? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Agree it should be separate – titled Distillery Loop, Cherry Street branch and Distillery Loop, or Distillery Loop and Cherry Street branch – because the infrastructure (the loop and the branch) have a shared history that now is separate from the original service (the 514) that used said infrastructure (given, as TheTrolleyPole points out, the loop and branch are now used by the 504A). —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:41, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Split to Distillery Loop and Cherry Street branch completed. Three redirects changed: Distillery Loop, Cherry Street streetcar line and Cherry Street streetcar. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 01:43, 10 October 2018 (UTC)