Talk:COVID-19 pandemic/Archive 44

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DUE WaPo

In depth coverage of the controversy by Wapo makes it DUE. MEDRS doesnt apply to history. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 13:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Mere coverage in mainstream press doesn't make a concept DUE for every single article on wikipedia. It's not even a question of MEDRS, but of WP:GEVAL and WP:FRINGELEVEL. The theory is absolutely notable, which is why it's discussed at Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 and Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2. But it remains low acceptance, so it's best to remain on those articles instead of here, until acceptance grows significantly. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:34, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

You're stretching the definition of "history" here. Is geology just "history", and if articles about the history of tectonic shift in the popular press conflict with review articles in high-quality scientific journals, which should we rely on? The origins of SARS-CoV-2 are a scientific question - one that the vast majority of journalists (including those writing on the subject for major newspapers) are completely unequipped to evaluate competently. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Jtbobwaysf and Bakkster Man, there is now an RFC on how WP:MEDRS applies to COVID-19 origins [1]. I think we should get that over and done with before considering which aspects of the virus/disease origins/aetiology and which sources to reference. CutePeach (talk) 16:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• I think we all can agree, at this point, after more than a year and a half, that the lab leak is certainly a possible cause of the pandemic, regardless of what some arm chair scientists in here might claim. Time to update reliable sources to reflect this it seems. --Malerooster (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Whether or not MEDRS applies and the results of that MEDRS/BMI RfC, I think we can handle a discussion of WP:DUE in the meantime. Particularly as it applies to this page and this topic (which is covered in more detail elsewhere). Bakkster Man (talk) 16:51, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

That is fine, but there is absolutely no need to hat this discussion, that is clear. --Malerooster (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, we have an editor who thinks he owns this page, lets set him straight. Should this thread be hatted? --Malerooster (talk) 17:21, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I could make an argument either way. The comment is very close (if not identical) to the discussion on the RSN. Is there anything you or Jtbobwaysf think is applicable here that isn't (or shouldn't be) covered there? Bakkster Man (talk) 17:33, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Bakkster, I just don't see any burning reason to hat this discussion, that's all. If folks feel otherwise then fine, hat it. A single editor should not make that decision, and certainly should not edit war over it when it has been disputed. I understand there is a similar discussion happening else where, buts that's ok to. --Malerooster (talk) 17:40, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I'll say this. We can have a discussion of DUE here, but we have arguably much stronger sources that would be cited in this article on whatever text was added. The Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 has multiple that would be a better basis on which to have that discussion, and would be productive. If the discussion is specifically that this particular WaPo source, or the one citing US intelligence be used to give more credence to the lab leak theory, then the discussion should be hatted and take place in one place: the RSN. Otherwise it looks like WP:FORUMSHOP. Bakkster Man (talk) 17:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• There is absolutely no point in having the same discussion (this is the same discussion, about the piece in the WaPo) at multiple places - that wastes editor resources and time and leads to the same arguments being pointlessly repeated (and may lead to [unintentional?] WP:FORUMSHOP). As I said, there is an existing discussion at WP:RSN - go there instead. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:43, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
• It is fine to discuss these sources on this talk page. The WaPo source is indepth and was not subject of the RSN (at least yet). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Lab_Leak_Again is about the report of the exact same thing (some random "intelligence report" about some people in Wuhan having been sick with something in late 2019). Whatever the outcome there, I doubt the WaPo is much different from the WSJ as far as we're concerned. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:16, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• Interestingly this RFC is ongoing here as well Wikipedia_talk:Biomedical_information#Survey Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:22, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• Care to expand on why you believe this particular news article makes "the controversy" DUE for this article? Or is this just going to be an argument about whether we link it on the talk page? Bakkster Man (talk) 22:34, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

In depth coverage makes it due. Dealing with WP:SEALION comments on this talk page, thus seems unlikely it is going to get agreed to on this talk page, but that doesn't prohibit discussion of it. Dont confuse lack of talk page consensus with a prohibition on discussion of it. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 12:07, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not looking to shut down discussion, but without more detail on why you come to a different conclusion about WP:DUE than I do, we're not really discussing anything. My interpretation is as follows:

WP:DUE: Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. This page's Background section Is just 2 paragraphs with 10 total sentences, only around half directly addressing the origins. That being the case, the addition of even 1-2 sentences of what remains a minority view (even a significant one, as this clearly is), would violate DUE by being "as much of or as detailed a description". This section does have a "See also" to the Investigations article, where this view can (and does) get DUE weight. Though I would agree that rephrasing the contrary opinions away from the current wording lumping it all as "online conspiracy theories" would be a good idea.

WP:DUE: Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and use of imagery. In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. This appears clearly to suggest that addition to the Background section would probably be UNDUE. Both through prominent placement in such a large article, and because the majority view isn't explained in sufficient detail to identify and explain differences adequately. If you're suggesting a more detailed description lower on this article, I would be open to discussing that possibility, but my initial impression is that the link to Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 is probably a better solution anyway.

WP:GEVAL: plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world. Per above, this is a concern specific to this page, which should be included or omitted based on relevance to the topic at hand. As a counter-argument, does this COVID investigation timeline being published in WaPo make it WP:DUE for inclusion in the Timeline article? It references 2009 flu pandemic timeline, should it reference every pandemic timeline of any notability? I argue no, for the same reason as above. Notability in general is not equivalent to notability for every related article.

If you disagree with my conclusions based on WP:PAGs, then please explain your position. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

We are talking about history, not about the legitimacy of the history. Your point is that the child is illegitimate so it doesn't exist. I am not arguing for a comparison of absurd theories in the article. The proposed certainty relating to the lab leak theory is as lacking in evidence as to the theory that it came from a yet undetermined animal. The excessive discussions of this point are essentially already bludgeoned and the defense of any one position without lots of studies is ignorance defined. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

This is not history, as already explained to you (if it were history, then you could surely cite sources telling us what the definitive origin of the virus was). The only SEALION I see is people begging for WP:FALSEBALANCE. Here's a post, with many sources to support it, which outlines A) that the scientific consensus is that the virus has a natural zoonotic origin; B) that the lab leak is a WP:FRINGE position within the scientific community and under our policies; and C) why we are academically conservative (because we follow the top sources). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:05, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

@Jtbobwaysf: The proposed certainty relating to the lab leak theory is as lacking in evidence as to the theory that it came from a yet undetermined animal. The excessive discussions of this point are essentially already bludgeoned and the defense of any one position without lots of studies is ignorance defined. With all due respect, is it possible you have misinterpreted the studies again? Bakkster Man (talk) 23:04, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

What would be the issue with this NIH source that states "Unless the intermediate host necessary for completing a natural zoonotic jump is identified, the dual‐use gain‐of‐function research practice of viral serial passage should be considered a viable route by which the novel coronavirus arose." Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:49, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Why are you mischaracterising the sources, again? That is not an NIH source. It's an essay (not even a review paper) in a journal which publishes essays (as you'd guess from the title) by two non-virologists (who have also co-authored "papers" with Mr. Deigin and the usual lab leak proponents from that' Twitter group) with no relevant expertise. It's not even a regular WP:RS, except for the opinion of its authors, who are non-notable non-expert non-entities which we can't cite anyway. It's akin to the paper by Wade. When compared with the high quality sources in journals like Nature Medicine, Review in Medical Virology, etc... it holds no weight. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:34, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

this was also out today Covid-19 has no ‘credible natural ancestor’, created in Wuhan lab, new study claims pdf--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:45, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ozzie10aaaa: Can you post the link to the journal this was published in? Because this looks pretty unreliable if it has remained pre-print since last July. Bakkster Man (talk) 22:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

"Quarterly Review of Biophysics Discovery" (a journal whose topic doesn't appear to have any relations to any of A) infectious diseases in general or B) virology in particular); "Daily Fail"? This seems like the dangers of WP:MEDPOP - news making sensationalist reports based on poor sources. The Biophysics journal does not appear to have published such a report yet. Searching for either of "covid" or "coronavirus" yields no relevant results anyway. Unless this is reporting a report in an impostor journal, in which it of course is not reliable for anything whatsoever. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:55, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Exactly the reason behind WP:MEDPOP. News is quick to publish pre-prints, loathe to mention when they fail in peer review. Seems like this was either submitted, but not published by the journal, or something more nefarious. Either way, a good reminder that sharing unreliable sources isn't very useful for improving the article. Bakkster Man (talk) 23:03, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

It's even worse than that. While there is indeed a paper by Sorensen et al. in QRB:D, it's about vaccines, not any of the man-made conspiracy nonsense (no mention of either China or Wuhan in the whole of it). See the actual paper. So news sources have either A) gotten their facts entirely wrong (that's what you get for quoting from the Daily Fail) or B) they're confusing a pre-print with an actual paper (also what you get from the Daily Fail). In either case, entirely useless. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 04:26, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Jtbobwaysf: I can confirm, RandomCanadian is right. This is not an article written by the NIH. The NIH PMC merely aggregates and archives journals, with this being the digital component. Essentially, they're acting as a library, not a publisher. PubMed Central® (PMC) is a free full-text archive of biomedical and life sciences journal literature at the U.S. National Institutes of Health's National Library of Medicine (NIH/NLM). In keeping with NLM’s legislative mandate to collect and preserve the biomedical literature, PMC serves as a digital counterpart to NLM’s extensive print journal collection that supports contemporary biomedical and health care research and practice as well as future scholarship. Read more here: [2]. With any article you find on PMC, if you click the link after DOI it should take you to the original published location (this article, for example).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but please ask yourself if you have the WP:COMPETENCE required to make productive comments regarding scientific publications, namely the ability to read sources and assess their reliability. This isn't the first time you've made a significant error in reading a journal article, which has required other editors to intervene and take time correct the error. While the conciliatory tone here is much appreciated compared to previous interactions (and I would expect to be the norm going forward when evaluating sources you have questions about by others on the talk page), do consider whether the time of you and others is better spent elsewhere. Bakkster Man (talk) 21:50, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• neutral comment -US President Biden revealed that earlier this year, he asked the intelligence community to assess “whether it emerged from human contact with an infected animal, or from a laboratory accident."--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 May 2021

In International Response -> Education, change "as of March 2020 53 countries closed all schools and 27 some, impacting... " to "as of March 2020, 53 countries closed all schools and 27 closed some, impacting..." AmazinglyLifelike (talk) 18:13, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Partly done: Done, and updated verb tenses RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Covid End

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is not so much a forum thing but considering the cases are declining, is it safe to say that should we edit an end date for the pandemic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SCPdude629 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

If that means we should announce an end date that has already occurred, I don't know of anyone who considers the pandemic to be over. If that means we should predict an end date in the future, I don't know of any such prediction that is generally accepted. Also, it's unlikely the disease will be completely stamped out, so at most we could report an official announcement, if and when it happens. Art LaPella (talk) 02:09, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Citation errors COVID-19 pandemic#Cause

The last four sentences of the Cause section are entirely without references. They appear to be referenced by cites [115] through [118], but these are all actually blank. You can see the relevant cite errors in the reference section.
The undefined ref names should be removed, and replaced with CN tags or new references. Thanks 92.5.2.97 (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2021

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/25/politics/wuhan-lab-covid-origin-theory/index.html

It would be wrong to call the lab leak theory of origin of the corona pandemic missinformation. 46.15.171.120 (talk) 12:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:25, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2021

There seems to be a piece of source editing of the noinclude template, that was not done properly, it's visible on the article underneath the Antarctica section. It should be removed as it's messy. Chariotsacha (talk) 21:15, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

It came from the Antarctica article. I removed the stray noinclude tags, but I'm not sure what the original intent at the other article was. MartinezMD (talk) 22:33, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Airborne Transmission

Most scientists agree that airborne transmission is the primary way of transmission. The WHO recently updated their guidelines. The intro to the article makes it sound like airborne transmission is only sometimes possible, but it is the reason we have superspreader events and is the main way of transmission. It is misleading and could be dangerous. -Solid Reign (talk) 12:53, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree Solid Reign, the phrase used in the article is a bit vague. It stated that "it is sometimes possible". I would support changing the statement in the article so long as we cite to sources that support that airborne transmission is the primary transmission method. I would be interested in hearing why you believe that this is dangerous, though I agree 100% that the statement is misleading. Jurisdicta (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

People who want to find out about COVID could look at the Wikipedia article and focus on the wrong activities. Spending a long time in an unventilated unpacked space with correct social distancing and disinfecting surfaces is much more dangerous than spending time at a crowded restaurant sitting outside without disinfecting anything. This isn't obvious or intuitive, until it is explained. Having an article that reinforces the previous way of thinking could lead to more contagion. -Solid Reign (talk) 23:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

agree w/ above two editors--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:54, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Airborne transmission the main method, or just as an important method. Now they finally all state what has been bleedingly obvious the whole time https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted please change it --202.53.51.164 (talk) 22:12, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Please change this
Transmission of COVID-19 occurs mainly when an infected person is in close contact[b} with another person. Small droplets containing the virus leave an infected person as they breathe, cough, sneeze, or speak and enter another person via their mouth, nose, or eyes. Airborne transmission can also occur, with smaller infected droplets lingering in the air for minutes to hours within enclosed spaces that have inadequate ventilation. Less commonly, the virus may spread via contaminated surfaces.
to
COVID-19 transmits when people breathe in air contaminated by droplets and small airborne particles. The risk of breathing these in is highest when people are in close proximity, but can also over longer distances, particularly indoors. It can also occur if splashed or sprayed with contaminated fluids, and rarely via contaminated surfaces. --202.53.51.164 (talk) 23:06, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

References

@Doc James: You've made some changes to the lead of the article about this very subject. Mind giving your opinion on the above? The sources seem fine as far as our usual criteria are concerned. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:33, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that 202.53.51.164 wording is an improvement. The literature has come around to supporting airborne transmission as one of the primary, if not the primary method of spread. Maybe change "small aerosol particles" to "small airborne particles"... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done In that case, with the suggested improevment (adjusted the ref formatting). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Have changed "and" to "or" to make it clear that it can be one or the other. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Droplets are airborne

Extended content

Almaty to clarify the latest revert: Respiratory droplets can be airborne as they vary in size. As you can read on the linked article: Droplet sizes range from < 1 µm to 1000 µm,[1][2] and in typical breath there are around 100 droplets per litre of breath. and As these droplets are suspended in air, they are all by definition aerosols.. The current transmission section on the lead is mostly based on the most recent CDC guidance you can find here: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html that states directly: The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal ways: (1) inhalation of very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles. To give emphasis and clear up what they mean by respiratory fluid (a synonym of droplet of any size) they specify very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles. I've maintained the same text in the copy to ensure we follow the source. I think in its entirety the lead is pretty clear that airborne transmission occurs. Unfortunately the usual problem remains that this is not the appropriate place to discuss this. This text is condensed from Transmission of COVID-19 and is a duplication of that content. We should work on that article first and then condense it here. Also the same paragraph is basically duplicated in the main COVID-19 page and should be kept aligned at all times. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 11:49, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Confusion exists on the term "Droplet": in the article regarding Airborne transmission we state Airborne transmission is distinct from transmission by respiratory droplets. which is unsourced and in direct contradiction with the above mentioned article on Respiratory droplets). I've therefore followed an idea by Doc James in a discussion above in which he proposed using the term "small airborne particles". I think that clarifies things up so I have removed the use of droplets and substituted it with airborne particles (with a link to airborne transmission) when appropriate. See:[3]. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 12:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC) @Gtoffoletto and Almaty: See the discussion directly above for the why and how of the new wording, in case you are not already aware of it. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:07, 11 May 2021 (UTC) This wording is very long. None of the sources state "for a long time" or equivalent. I will try to summarize again using some of your words, but it can be said in 2 or 3 sentences in the lead. --Almaty (talk) 16:11, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Also it is not really "confusion" about airborne and droplet, essentially the CDC has acquiesced to scientific evidence that has overturned nearly a century of textbook dogma on the traditional distinction between "aerosols" and "droplets". I think if one were to attempt this, we need to find high quality secondary sources to rewrite "respiratory droplet" and "airborne transmission" - I would combine the two into one "respiratory route" --Almaty (talk) 16:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: Yes I agree that would probably make sense. "Respiratory route" sounds good to me. Regarding the lead: I agree it was too long. I've used your suggestions to condense it even more. I've removed the "for a long time" (although it was correct: the risk is higher if you stay in close proximity for a long time) and I've merged a couple of sentences. I've removed "splashed or sprayed with contaminated fluids" as it sounds like kids playing with water cannons and is not very practical and tried sticking to the CDC guidance by saying "Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person through touching or direct deposition (i.e. being coughed on)." Here it is: [4] suggestions welcome if we can improve this further. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 17:51, 11 May 2021 (UTC) User:Gtoffoletto you misunderstand "touching and direct deposition" in your words - they're not the same thing, direct and indirect contact are virtually non existent. this is not the same as being "coughed on" either. You also didn't summarize at all, if you want to expand use the body. --Almaty (talk) 17:54, 11 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: The CDC source [5] states: Infectious exposures to respiratory fluids carrying SARS-CoV-2 occur in three principal ways (not mutually exclusive): • Inhalation of air carrying very small fine droplets and aerosol particles that contain infectious virus. Risk of transmission is greatest within three to six feet of an infectious source where the concentration of these very fine droplets and particles is greatest. • Deposition of virus carried in exhaled droplets and particles onto exposed mucous membranes (i.e., “splashes and sprays”, such as being coughed on). Risk of transmission is likewise greatest close to an infectious source where the concentration of these exhaled droplets and particles is greatest. • Touching mucous membranes with hands soiled by exhaled respiratory fluids containing virus or from touching inanimate surfaces contaminated with virus.. That's what I'm summarising and I don't think I'm misunderstanding it. Also, they are not virtually non existent according to the source. The length of my wording compared to yours is the same in terms of characters but we can tighten it up even more while following the source more closely ("splashed or sprayed with contaminated fluids" for example is incorrect. If you got sprayed with contaminated saliva on your foot you would not get infected. The role of mucous membranes (eyes, mouth, nose) must be described.). Here is another try: Transmission of COVID-19 occurs when people are exposed to virus-containing respiratory droplets and airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person through direct deposition (i.e. being coughed on) or after touching a contaminated surface or object. The risk of infection is highest when people are in close proximity, but particles can travel long distances and remain suspended in the air for minutes to hours, particularly indoors in poorly ventilated and crowded spaces. People remain contagious for up to 20 days, and can spread the virus even if they do not develop any symptoms. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 18:15, 11 May 2021 (UTC) The CDC have 3 methods in their brief, very clearly. So I think we use just three summarized sentences like I've writen with a combination of our words. Your first sentence does the first method (which used to effectively be two methods). Your second sentence combines both method one, two and three. Your third sentence then goes back to combine method one and two. Third opinion welcome but we already had one above before this discussion. :) --18:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC) The CDC guidance states "Having these small droplets and particles that contain virus land on the eyes, nose, or mouth, especially through splashes and sprays like a cough or sneeze." - this isn't being touched or "directly deposited", have a think about that exact wording, it struck me as odd too, but how else do you explain it in plain English succintly? They are trying to say that you inhale all "redefined airborne" things, but if you are coughed on with little droplets that you can feel of spittle - that is their "splash or spray" they repetitively use, I think it is fine. "If infectious respiratory fluids expelled, such as from coughing, land on the eyes nose or mouth" is another option. It isn't really "direct deposition" because that confuses with the technical term "direct contact" --Almaty (talk) 18:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC) There are other sources than the CDC, and the CDC state repetitively that touching is not a primary method. You've given it more words than the main method. --Almaty (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: In the CDC sources above you can see that "splash or spray"="deposited"="cough or sneeze". They are always saying the same thing but with different words. The more practical terms I think are cough or sneeze. Splash or spray give the wrong impression. Deposited is a bit abstract. How about: Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person directly (i.e. being coughed on) or, less commonly, indirectly after touching a contaminated surface or object. This way we also say the last method is the least common. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 18:35, 11 May 2021 (UTC) "If infectious respiratory fluids expelled, such as from coughing, land on the eyes nose or mouth"? Please avoid "directly" as it is a technical term, I think "deposited" makes little sense in this context for a WP:LEAD, "landed" is ok, "splashed or sprayed" is OK. Sneezes do not happen in COVID they are not a symptom. Also, just one sentence per method, not multiple sentences per method I think. It just has to be simple. Aliso CDC do not use the term "crowded" - please see some of their cites as to why, a church here in Sydney comes to mind. We should use "less ventilated" which summarizes that too. --Almaty (talk) 18:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: Actually, to really stick to the source: Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person directly (i.e. being coughed on) or through touching with contaminated hands.. We don't need to specify how the hands got contaminated (e.g. fomites) since that method is the least probable and can go in the body. But the CDC does include touching with contaminated hands as one of the three main ways: COVID-19 is spread in three main ways: • Breathing in air when close to an infected person who is exhaling small droplets and particles that contain the virus. • Having these small droplets and particles that contain virus land on the eyes, nose, or mouth, especially through splashes and sprays like a cough or sneeze. • Touching eyes, nose, or mouth with hands that have the virus on them.[6]. We have the three methods in one simple and practical sentence this way. I don't think in this context directly can cause a lot of confusion. And there is a simple example to clarify. CDC does use crowded and talks about crowds repeatedly: adequate ventilation, and avoidance of crowded indoor spaces -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 18:52, 11 May 2021 (UTC) No you dont seem to stick to the the source at all. Read the bottom of the brief. It is certainly not a main method. It virtually never happens, please see the Transmission of COVID-19 page which has had a lot of editors, and understand multiple sources before making drastic edits. We should [web.archive.org/web/20210507222748/https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html cite this CDC page more], I think you will understand this table better. They since seem to have removed the table. This is why we shouldn't rely on one source, the CDC seems to retract repetitively, and please see their own brief that states it is uncommmon, ECDC saying no case reports, etc. Please read Transmission of COVID-19 fully, and read multiple sources. --18:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Re crowded, yes I can find the Find feature on a browser too. However they state that as an avoidance measure, not as a transmission mode. It transmits very well in poorly ventilated areas with just one case. Youre just more likely to find more cases in a crowded place. --Almaty (talk) 19:01, 11 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: I wrote significant parts of the lead to the Transmission of COVID-19 article :-) I'm glad you like it. The issue here is condensing it into so few sentences which isn't easy. We can do it together and make it work. The bottom of the brief specifies that transmission from contaminated surfaces does not contribute substantially to new infections. But surfaces are not the only way of contaminating hands. A handshake for example will significantly contaminate hands. Spit reaches hands much more easily (they are lower to the ground). Touching or adjusting a contaminated mask or medical tools will contaminate hands. That is why touching of the mouth, nose, eyes with contaminated hands is described by the CDC as one of the three main paths of infection (not specifying how the hands were contaminated!). That's what we should also say. I agree we can remove the "crowded" specification. It may be misleading and give people a false sense of safety in spaces where only one infected person was present. So how about this version (trimmed a couple of other things too to make it shorter): Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people are exposed to respiratory droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person directly (i.e. being coughed on) or through touching with contaminated hands. The risk of infection is highest when people are in close proximity, but particles can travel long distances and remain suspended in the air for minutes to hours, particularly indoors in poorly ventilated spaces.. I think it's improving fast and it's pretty accurate and succinct. Agree? -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 19:19, 11 May 2021 (UTC) I preferred this version of that article much more, and also it got exceedingly verbose and isn't really readable anymore. But the sources are there for you to read. I would appreciate it if you sought more opinions before making large changes based on one source only. We need third opinion or WP:RFC. You shouldn't combine the three methods in one sentence saying they are all equivalent, that is dangerous, and other agencies do not do that. Please see this from the CDC: "CDC determined that the risk of surface transmission is low, and secondary to the primary routes of virus transmission through direct contact droplets and aerosols". --Almaty (talk) 19:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC) They say "Current evidence strongly suggests transmission from contaminated surfaces does not contribute substantially to new infections." right here, so wonder why they they say "three main ways" now on that other page, and removed the table that said common and uncommon. I think they meean "three different types of ways" - also this isn't without precedent, they have retracted and put things in error on their website in regard to this exact issue. The current wording is fine. --Almaty (talk) 19:43, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Please provide sources to your statements. We are both saying very similar things. I reported what the CDC says in its scientific brief [7]: Current evidence strongly suggests transmission from contaminated surfaces does not contribute substantially to new infections but also states that one of the three principal ways:[...] Touching mucous membranes with hands soiled by exhaled respiratory fluids containing virus or from touching inanimate surfaces contaminated with virus.. This is not a contradiction since hands can be contaminated by other sources (not only surfaces) as I explained above. The WHO also refers to the same three methods of transmission although it is less specific than the CDC. It clearly states: People may also become infected by touching surfaces that have been contaminated by the virus when touching their eyes, nose or mouth without cleaning their hands.[8]. So what you are proposing is to remove entirely the "touching" path for transmission. Which is not supported by the CDC nor the WHO which are two major WP:MEDRS compliant sources. CNN is not WP:MEDRS compliant nor is wsws.org.-- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 19:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC) I am not proposing that at all I am stating that it is rare. I'm out. Fait accompli. --Almaty (talk) 20:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Your wording states that fomite transmission is common, and you did it with an edit war. --Almaty (talk) 20:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Diffs of edits by one user away from preexisting consensus that fomites or touching contaminated surfaces is rare: [9] [10] [11] [12] --Almaty (talk) 10:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC) References

Request for comment

Should COVID-19 Pandemic's Lead state the following when explaining transmission modes.

Option 1 Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people are exposed to respiratory droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person directly (i.e. being coughed on) or through touching with contaminated hands.

OR

Option 2 COVID-19 transmits when people breathe in air contaminated by droplets or small airborne particles. Transmission can also occur if splashed or sprayed with contaminated fluids, and uncommonly via contaminated surfaces.

OR

Option 3 (withdrawn) COVID-19 transmits when people breathe in air contaminated by droplets or small airborne particles. It can also spread if infectious respiratory fluids, such as from coughing, land on people's eyes nose or mouth, and rarely via surfaces.

OR

Option 4a Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people are exposed to respiratory droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person.

OR

Option 4b (compromise) Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people inhale droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. It also occurs when these droplets and particles land on the eyes, nose or mouth.

OR

Option 5 (was referred to as "current text") Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people inhale droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Less commonly, infection can occur via contact with contaminated surfaces.

NOTE all options include this sentence "The risk of breathing these in is highest when people are in close proximity, but they can be inhaled over longer distances, particularly indoors." --Almaty (talk) 20:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment There are too many options for this to be a useful RfC... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:56, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  Agree with RandomCanadian: this RfC is unusable at this point. The discussion has been horribly WP:BLUDGEONed and is now useless. It should be closed and either we start over, or some other way of building consensus should be found. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 22:37, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  @Gtoffoletto: Since you're asking, I think a more productive method would be to start with the existing text (the one subsequent to the edit request); and then look at the sources (ideally, a broad review - not necessarily as extensive as this, but at least a few government health agencies and some review papers for more details). This might be best done looking for sources before proposing changes to the existing text, since it will ensure we do this the right way (sources then text; basically the well known scientific method: evidence then conclusions) instead of writing what sounds right and then trying to fit the sources to it. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  @RandomCanadian: I would totally support that. It is clear this RfC is going nowhere. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 22:49, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• You only say that @Gtoffoletto: because the RFC doesnt agree with you. There are 3 editors that agree with option 2, and also RandomCanadian:disagrees with option 1. If RandomCanadian agrees with Option 2, and can move on from there, then there is consensus against your proposed option 1. -- Almaty^✉✎ 17:56, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

  Please stop modifying the discussion Almaty you are making this RfC a mess. You made like 50 edits in a row modifying and moving around the discussion. I think you have even completely deleted significant portions (I really can't tell anymore). That is extremely disruptive. Stop immediately. You are rendering this RfC completely useless and impossible to follow. See WP:TPO and WP:BLUDGEON. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I've not deleted anyone's comments, I reordered it to make it easier to follow per WP:REFACTOR, and now its moved back to exactly how it was before. please stop casting aspersions with no basis in fact. --Almaty (talk) 13:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• Option 2 This faithfully replicates the CDC source. All sources agree that airborne spread (call it that or airborne/droplet spread) is the most important method, but CDC currently state that there are three principle ways, one of these is very uncommon. See [13], here where they state it in their own brief, here where the CDC's Chief of the Waterborne Disease Prevention Branch states that disinfecting "may be used to give people a sense of security that they are being protected from the virus, but this may be a false sense of security," numerous other sources pointing to it to be rare. Also this gives airborne/droplet the prominence it deserves at the start of the lead, and then the less common methods a brief mention. It is also better worded --Almaty (talk) 20:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
• For reference, the current text is: Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people are exposed to respiratory droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person directly (i.e. being coughed on) or through touching with contaminated hands. If this is not the text that is being proposed to replace I presume I'll be quickly corrected. I agree that "contaminated surfaces" should be given an "uncommonly" or similar descriptor, but I don't agree that "particles into mucous membranes" (ex: "may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes") is as uncommon as touching. I would support a descriptor that adds that contamination of surfaces is a very uncommon mode of transmission, and I could even support just removing that from the lead altogether. But I don't think either of these sentences is an improvement overall. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I jumped the gun, so apologies to Almaty for that - thanks for the clarification and the discussion section. I stand by my opinion that the best thing is likely a combination of these. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:01, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
• User:Gtoffoletto I have rearranged the RfC, and collapsed all of our extended discussions. I think it's a fair WP:REFACTORing (mainly rearranging) so that others can participate. However if you agree with my compromise, Option 4b, I can withdraw the RfC. -- Almaty^✉✎ 16:49, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  @Almaty: I have undone most of your changes, because they broke the entry at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, science, and technology. It may be possible to restore some of your individual posts, but not all of them. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• option 2 per Almaty--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 22:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 4a per CDC three main ways exist: [14]: Infectious exposures[...] occur in three principal ways:[...] • Inhalation of air carrying very small fine droplets and aerosol particles that contain infectious virus.[...] • Deposition of virus carried in exhaled droplets and particles onto exposed mucous membranes (i.e., “splashes and sprays”, such as being coughed on).[...] • Touching mucous membranes with hands soiled by exhaled respiratory fluids containing virus or from touching inanimate surfaces contaminated with virus. and the WHO agrees [15]A person can be infected when aerosols or droplets containing the virus are inhaled or come directly into contact with the eyes, nose, or mouth.[...] People may also become infected by touching surfaces that have been contaminated by the virus when touching their eyes, nose or mouth without cleaning their hands. so we must cover: Inhalation, direct deposition and touching according to out main WP:MEDRS sources. Note: Touching is not necessarily touching surfaces. In general hands can put the virus into mucous membranes and cause infection (e.g. touching or adjusting an infected mask for example). -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 22:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Option 4a is less precise than option 1 but is an accurate summary. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 as per the comment by Gtoffoletto. I would expound upon their comment and say Option 1 should include a bit more detail. In addition, according to the Mayo Clinic, (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/expert-answers/sex-and-coronavirus/faq-20486572#:~:text=The%20virus%20spreads%20by%20respiratory,you%20to%20the%20virus.) "The virus spreads by respiratory droplets released when someone with the virus coughs, sneezes or talks. These droplets can be inhaled or land in the mouth or nose of a person nearby. Coming into contact with a person's spit through kissing or other sexual activities could expose you to the virus." This may be worth mentioning as well. Jurisdicta (talk) 14:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• User:Jurisdicta the source that your quote leads more to option 2. All of them are respiratory fluids but via fomites is vanishingly uncommon - you see it isn't even mentioned by mayoclinic. --Almaty (talk) 13:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Almaty, your points are valid and I agree that the article I cited leans more to option 2. Jurisdicta (talk) 15:11, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Jurisdicta does this change your vote to Option 2 or any other option then? -- Almaty^✉✎ 16:46, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes it does. After digging a bit deeper into all the citations and sources, I would vote for Option 2. 22:01, 31 May 2021 (UTC) Jurisdicta (talk) 22:01, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 - The explanation given in option one covers fully the various ways that transmission occurs . Also as per comments by Gtoffoletto. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 07:35, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• Current text Looking beyond the agency guidelines (just to broaden the scope a little bit), peer-reviewed MEDRS papers seem to support the text currently in the article. That is, that the virus spreads mostly through respiratory means, but other methods are possible. For ex. a recent review paper suggests both methods, with airborne transmission more prevalent. A slightly less recent (September 2020) paper in Annals of Internal Medicine also suggests that respiratory transmission is dominant, and notes that other forms are also possible/documented but "unusual". I think the current text in the article accurately reflects this, although some improvements could be made. Maybe "Transmission of COVID-19 most commonly occurs via respiratory droplets and airborne particles. Less commonly, infection can occur through other methods of transmission, such as via contact with contaminated surfaces."? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:53, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: could you better specify your preferred version? The article has been edited while the RfC was in progress (see discussion below. I just reverted to a non disputed version before the RfC) so "the current text" is ambiguous. Please specify if it is one of the options above or add one yourself. Regarding your comment: I think it's important that we are clear that infection happens when respiratory particles reach the eyes, mouth and nose (in any way) and not just when someone "inhales" them. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 18:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

This is what I was referring to, since it accurately reflects the above. The version you reverted to makes it appear that the main reason for transmission is merely being in close contact [by putting that sentence first and putting a period between it and the reasons behind that] (when it is in fact, per the sources, the main cause of transmission is via transmission of viral particles either through droplets or in direct airborne transmission - which, of course, just so happens to be more likely when in close contact). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: Unfortunately (see discussion below) Option 1 (which was online when the RfC was initiated) has been disputed and we had to go back to the previous consensus. If you like that version you could add it as option 4. I don't think it is accurate as it doesn't state what you are saying per the sources, the main cause of transmission is via transmission of viral particles either through droplets or in direct airborne transmission. That version states that the virus needs to be inhaled and completely excludes droplets coming into direct contact with the eyes nose and mouth (e.g. through coughs) as the WHO and CDC state. Quoting from the CDC: Although animal studies and epidemiologic investigations indicate that inhalation of virus can cause infection, the relative contributions of inhalation of virus and deposition of virus on mucous membranes remain unquantified and will be difficult to establish[16] We can't give the impression that inhaling is the main transmission method as we don't know that. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 00:05, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

What User:Gtoffoletto misunderstands is that this deposition on mucous membranes is in fact the same respiratory route that they argue against being the most important method. What they also fail to see is that the "touching" method is in fact fomites, they have no sources to back up the assertions they make, and they are edit warring, with the full knowledge that multiple users do not agree with them. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] -- Almaty^✉✎ 05:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Almaty: please stop rambling. I have provided above a MEDRS source that directly contradicts the current text that states COVID-19 transmits when *people breathe in air* contaminated by droplets and small airborne particles.. This is inaccurate and dangerous. The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal waysCDC and Current evidence suggests that the virus spreads mainly between people who are in close contact with each other, typically within 1 metre (short-range). A person can be infected when aerosols or droplets containing the virus are inhaled or come directly into contact with the eyes, nose, or mouth.WHO. The current text is gravely incorrect. Several of the votes above agree with this assessment and chose Option 1. Stop personalising this discussion on me and editing the article without any consensus. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:35, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

That is not inaccurate at all. Please remove the above personal attack, you have personalised the discussion. I had to point out the edit war. Only one editor agrees with option 1, others changed their vote or vote for a combination, or option 2. To quote the WHO: "A person can be infected when aerosols or droplets containing the virus are inhaled or come directly into contact with the eyes, nose, or mouth." Its exactly the same as the wording agreed to before yourself and I became involved, namely the current text "COVID-19 transmits when *people breathe in air* contaminated by droplets and small airborne particles" followed by "Transmission can also occur if splashed or sprayed with contaminated fluids" - it just points out that surfaces are rare, because that is established consensus, and accurate. -- Almaty^✉✎ 15:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

A person can be infected when aerosols or droplets containing the virus are inhaled or come directly into contact with the eyes, nose, or mouth. Where in this WHO text are surfaces mentioned? The point is not about surfaces. The point is Eyes don't breathe. You can still get infected if respiratory fluids reach them. In the current text you report there is no mention of eyes, mouth and nose. This is a problem. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 11:50, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Summarizing per MOS:LEAD, having been invovled in numerous discussions around this specific sentence since January 2020, we settled numerous times that eyes nose and mouth was unnecessary detail. Please see previous talk pages. However, if it gets you across the line (the only editor that objects in any form to the current wording), happy to include, as already done yesterday. -- Almaty^✉✎ 15:22, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

happy to include, as already done yesterday. Your continued editing to the article while the RfC is in progress is highly WP:DISRUPTIVE. The result is this RfC is a mess. Do you have a link to those discussions you mention? Haven't seen them before and would strongly oppose. There are currently 3 editors in support of Option 1 which is the most of any option proposed (not a lot of participation unfortunately). I think it is the most accurate statement as it reflects the WHO and CDC stance exactly but maybe you would also support it if we strike the final part: Option 4: Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people are exposed to respiratory droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person. We need to close this RfC. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 17:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

RfC's are usually open for much longer than this, and this one will need to be as well. I strongly oppose option 4, as it makes less sense. The !votes are roughly even, as one person changed their vote. The current text I also support: COVID-19 transmits when people breathe in air contaminated by droplets and small airborne particles. The risk of breathing these in is highest when people are in close proximity, but they can be inhaled over longer distances, particularly indoors. Transmission can also occur if splashed or sprayed with contaminated fluids, in the eyes nose or mouth, and rarely via contaminated surfaces. A previous discussion is [22], however i'm just illustrating my on wiki experience with the question, as the science has moved on since then. I think the reason less people are responding is because of how long this talk has become. -- Almaty^✉✎ 03:26, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support Option 5/"current text" Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people inhale droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Less commonly, infection can occur via contact with contaminated surfaces. -- Almaty^✉✎ 03:41, 31 May 2021
• Support Option 4b supported as a compromise position. More verbose than options 2 & 5 but accurate. -- Almaty^✉✎ 03:58, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose option 1 because it essentially conflates the three methods saying each are equally important. -- Almaty^✉✎ 16:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 Withdrawn due to lack of support. -- Almaty^✉✎ 16:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose option 4a as do not need to say "respiratory droplets" and should keep the methods seperate, one method per sentence. Also, reaching the eyes nose or mouth isn't the same as landing on them. Also, what happens once they reach them? WP:COMPETENCE required to get this exactly right. -- Almaty^✉✎ 16:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Option 4a or 4b - I like these optionsthe best. Jaxarnolds (talk) 02:55, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended content

The WHO states that there is one main way - the droplet airborne route. [23] Not saying this in the lead, effectively calling all of them equally important, is very incorrect - the CDC only do it on one page, and if you click through, they say that surfaces "does not contribute substantially to new infections". We cannot give it the same WP:DUE weight, we should use Option 2. If you look further in the literature, you see there are so few infections that it has never been proven conclusively, unlike the other routes. Every other source including ECDC[24], Public Health Agency of Canada [25] and well cited reviews [26] state that it very very rare (or much less prominent). --Almaty (talk) 13:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC) Australian Guidelines [27] "Indirect transmission via contact with contaminated surfaces and objects may be possible but does not present the same degree of risk as direct close contact with an infected person" --Almaty (talk) 13:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC) Comment I reverted some edits to this sentence while the RfC is in progress [28]. We should wait for the end of this discussion before making changes (this also affects greatly Transmission of COVID-19. The RfC is not very clear so that's maybe why not a lot of people are participating... but I'll ping a couple of users from the previous discussions to try and close this and figure out the best way of describing transmission: @Berchanhimez: @RandomCanadian: @RandomCanadian: @Solid Reign: @Doc James: -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 08:54, 21 May 2021 (UTC) Please not that this RfC only is for the sentence in the lead in question, not for the body or for other articles. Option 1 overrides preexisting longstanding consensus that airborne/droplet is the main method of spread and that fomites are rare. Please respect that the CDC recognised airborne spread, as dominant for the first time, but based on a linguistic misunderstanding around the word “principle” in the beginning of one CDC page (not the other) [29], and ignoring all other sources, the edits going to Option 1 are misinformed (diffs) [30] [31] [32] [33] Also there are 3 supports to Option 2. The RfC is well worded. Will revert because the prior wording, that fomites or "touching" is rare, reflects preexisting consensus [34], and airborne is the common method all agreed to above. —Almaty (talk) 10:16, 21 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: I disagree with your analysis of the sources as I have stated above (and others agree so far). WHO, CDC etc. all state that there are three main ways to be exposed to respiratory fluids. In any case: per WP:RFC the sentences in question should not be changed while the RfC is in progress (I see it was you who changed it to the version you prefer while the RfC was in progress and you have reverted my restoration with a pretty inflammatory edit summary). I would ask you to self revert and await the results of this RfC before further editing those sentences. I've also pinged other experienced users. Be patient and let's see what the community thinks. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 11:10, 21 May 2021 (UTC) Gtoffoletto, I am reflecting preexisting community consensus. There is only one editor that is Civil POV pushing and WP:edit waring about saying that fomites/touching is a main method, and that is you. I have provided the diffs. If you prefer we can go back to exactly how it was before this started [35] - and just change it to airborne, the part we agree on. But I think the current diff [36] is fair for preexisting community consensus. I think the RfC is fair and we need to let it wait out now, with how it was before we entered this discussion as the starting point. Please let me know if you don't think that is fair, but I think we'll have our answer from the RfC soon enough. There is WP:NODEADLINE, but it is fair to have the page for a protracted RfC to reflect prior consensus while the protracted RfC is being discussed. --Almaty (talk) 11:14, 21 May 2021 (UTC) As you can read above in the RfC: For reference, the current text is: Transmission of COVID-19 commonly occurs when people are exposed to respiratory droplets or small airborne particles exhaled by an infected person. Those particles may be inhaled or may reach the mouth, nose, or eyes of a person directly (i.e. being coughed on) or through touching with contaminated hands.. However if you would rather go to this version it is fine for me. It isn't very precise given the new guidance but less misleading than the current version which is clearly different than how the page was and doesn't therefore reflect any preexisting consensus. Also it doesn't reflect the WHO, CDC and other WP:MEDRS sources accurately so it isn't appropriate. Please let's just stick to the content and let the RfC conclude before making other edits on this. There is no need for further discussion. We have both made our points clear. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 12:08, 21 May 2021 (UTC) There are 2 issues here, one we agree on - that droplet/airborne is A main method. The second issue is whether fomites are common. They are uncommon, as per previous consensus. I am happy with whatever wording so long as it says these two points. You seem to want to replicate the CDC's page saying that fomites are COMMON but in fact it doens't say that, it says that it is ONE of the principle methods. This doesn't mean that it is common at all. All sources state that it is uncommon, CDC, WHO, ECDC if you actually read their briefs - it appears you haven't. --Almaty (talk) 12:17, 21 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: That's not what I'm saying at all. All sources are clear that fomites appear to not be common. I've explained myself above several times so I won't do so again. Please revert your last edit to the previous version or to the way it was when you made the RfC. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 12:29, 21 May 2021 (UTC) by stating that there are three main ways without saying which one is overwhelmingly common, and which is overwhelmingly rare, all of your edits do that by putting it in the same sentence. Perhaps we have a language difficulty here but if you agree that droplet/airborne is the common route and that fomites are uncommon - this is all “touching” which is what the CDC calls it for some reason - all of it is fomites. If you agree with me then why don’t your edits state it??? You haven’t explained yourself at all. If it is uncommon, wp:due requires that we state it —Almaty (talk) 12:42, 21 May 2021 (UTC) OK then, I'll try to explain myself one last time: Touching with contaminated hands is not synonymous with fomites (this is the mistake in your reasoning I believe). Hands can be contaminated even without touching surfaces in many different ways (e.g. someone spits while talking and it falls on your hands, or you touch the mouth of an infected person maybe feeding them or you are a doctor/dentist/nurse?). That's why cleaning hands and not touching your eyes/mounth/etc. are major prevention recommendations. This is why the CDC states touching with contaminated hands is a primary path to infection while also stating that fomites are uncommon. Therefore see option 1 above in the RfC to cover this primary (according to the WHO and CDC) path to infection. I hope I was clear this time? Please revert the article to the version we discussed above so that it is clear we are in agreement on that. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 13:00, 21 May 2021 (UTC) What you have just said constitutes original research and misunderstands the page. Have a look here at the table they used, to simplify it. Also they state at the top of the page, "COVID-19 spreads when an infected person breathes out droplets and very small particles that contain the virus. These droplets and particles can be breathed in by other people or land on their eyes, noses, or mouth. In some circumstances, they may contaminate surfaces they touch." The main method is the respiratory droplet/airborne, as per all of the sources. CDC state that the second method, which is via respiratory fluids may also be contributing - but not via hands, their third method, that is the least common method. TYou're trying to say something it isn't, doing original research. (talk) 14:01, 21 May 2021 (UTC) " Touching eyes, nose, or mouth Touching eyes, nose, or mouth with hands that have the virus on them - Uncommon - do you understand yet? If not, please think a little harder, read more sources, quote other sources. Contaminated hands is precisely how fomites can infect, and precisely the thing that is uncommon. Question yourself here, if you are without expertise, just look at what the sources say, and as you realise you might be misunderstanding the CDC source - use other sources!!!. However it is easier to understand wiki rules than this difficult concept. To avoid WP:OR can you provide a source stating: CDC states touching with contaminated hands is a primary path to infection while also stating that fomites are uncommon., also someone spits while talking and it falls on your hands, or you touch the mouth of an infected person maybe feeding them or you are a doctor/dentist/nurse - if you can't, you are doing original research. Read the table from the CDC again. Have you read ECDC transmission brief? Have you read the literature reviews that I cited? Have you read previous discussions on the issue in these talk pages? Have you read Transmission of COVID-19? I think taking a holistic view of the subject will allow you to perhaps agree with the current wording or option 2. --Almaty (talk) 14:19, 21 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: You are citing old versions of those sources that fit your opinion. Those pages are outdated. I disagree and I don't think this discussion is productive anymore. Please restore the page to how it was before the RfC or as we have agreed (or I will do so). We will then see how the RfC progresses.-- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 17:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC) That is not correct. [37] is the version with consensus, we should not state "airborne transmission is sometimes possible", you haven't read the sources. Stick to the sources and you will be fine, please don't continue your edit war (diffs provided above) or I will consider reporting it. -- Almaty✉✎ 21:11, 25 May 2021 (UTC) @Almaty: I have reverted to the version you identified as previous consensus above: However if you would rather go to this version it is fine for me.[38]. But you edited the article once again while the RfC is still in progress and despite agreeing to something else. That is not constructive and WP:DISRUPTIVE. Please self revert and stop this time waste. If you don't intend to stop this then please file a report before editing further. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 23:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC) @Gtoffoletto: The version you reverted to is sufficiently incorrect, or at least significantly lacking (as identified in reliable sources given in the RfC above) that I think there are sufficient grounds (especially given this is an actual globally important topic and that this page attracts significant attention because of that) for boldly changing it without getting stuck in the consensus building process. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:32, 27 May 2021 (UTC) Support the above edit and the above process. There is only one (very persistent) user @Gtoffoletto: that attempts to misquote and miscontextualise the CDC, by saying that fomites are important. [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] This user should refrain from editing, and we should use the consensus previously established by User:RandomCanadian's edit [44] of the IP editor that was supported by Doc James and others. [45] -- Almaty✉✎ 05:03, 27 May 2021 (UTC) Also the user says that I agreed on a previous version, however I did not, exactly how it was before this started [32] - and just change it to airborne, the part we agree on As in we needed to come to a consensus which I just noticed already occured, prior to our involvement, with the above edit[46]. -- Almaty✉✎ 05:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC) I'm sorry Almaty but at this point I must ignore you. @RandomCanadian: I totally agree the previous text was inaccurate. That is why I edited it in the first place (Option 1 in the RfC above is my edit). However the current version that Almaty keeps editing into the article is also inaccurate and probably more so than the previous versions. It isn't an improvement. It is a step back. See my reply to you above [47] for major WP:MEDRS sources directly contradicting the current text. Let's leave the page be for the moment and try to resolve the RfC as fast as possible in order to reach something that is accurate. Please consider changing your vote above or proposing another version so that we can move towards consensus. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 10:42, 27 May 2021 (UTC) You seem to be quoting this CDC page. For the benefit of everyone: The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal ways: (1) inhalation of very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles, (2) deposition of respiratory droplets and particles on exposed mucous membranes in the mouth, nose, or eye by direct splashes and sprays, and (3) touching mucous membranes with hands that have been soiled either directly by virus-containing respiratory fluids or indirectly by touching surfaces with virus on them. The CDC doesn't seem to make an explicit assessment as to which method is more likely amongst these three, although of course the direct routes are presented first (thus have the emphasis of preeminence). Perfectly logical: if all are possible, as an agency whose goal is to minimise the spread of the virus, you don't want efforts about any of the methods to be less intensive because it's "less likely". The WHO page is also similar, although here the transmission via surfaces is more clearly placed after the bullet list of main methods. Health Canada is also similar to the WHO page in that aspect. This is where we can look for other sources in the MEDRS hierarchy and see if they fill out this detail. Review papers (which are also great sources) seem to be mostly saying that airborne transmission is a thing, and that it is prevalent, and that steps should be taken to prevent this. So already in broad agreement with the national guidelines, which as you surely know recommend the usage of face masks, social distancing, et al. The CDC does make an explicit assessment, if you click through [48] Current evidence strongly suggests transmission from contaminated surfaces does not contribute substantially to new infections. -- Almaty✉✎ 15:39, 27 May 2021 (UTC) Australian guidelines also make an explicit assessment: Respiratory droplets and secretions expelled by an infectious person can contaminate surfaces and objects (4). Indirect transmission via contact with contaminated surfaces and objects may be possible but does not present the same degree of risk as direct close contact with an infected person. [49] -- Almaty✉✎ 15:46, 27 May 2021 (UTC) To potentially help with user's understanding, on how these three methods interrelate, and their relative importance, I have further edited Transmission of COVID-19 to include further explanations of these three methods and their relative importance, as per every source, not just the one simplified CDC source. I think the wording agreed to prior to the long discussion in [50] this edit is an apt summary of the below.-- Almaty✉✎ 16:09, 27 May 2021 (UTC) The size of the infectious particles is on a continuum, ranging from small airborne particles that remain suspended in the air for long periods, to larger droplets that may remain airborne or fall to the ground. This continuum between droplets and aerosols has redefined the traditional understanding of how respiratory viruses transmit. The largest droplets of respiratory fluid do not travel far, and can be inhaled, or land on mucous membranes on the eyes, nose, or mouth to cause new infection. The fine aerosol particles are in highest concentration when people are in close proximity, leading to the virus transmitting easier when people are physically close. However, airborne transmission does occur at longer distances, mainly in locations that are poorly ventilated (such as restaurants, choirs, gyms, nightclubs, offices, and religious venues). In those conditions small particles can remain suspended in the air for minutes to hours. It is possible that a person might get COVID-19 indirectly by touching a contaminated surface or object before touching their own mouth, nose, or eyes, though strong evidence suggests this does not contribute substantially to new infections. (the bulk my wording, from Transmission of COVID-19, some text quoted verbatim from the CDC's current page under public domain, to assist with understanding the CDC) -- Almaty✉✎ 16:18, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

References

References

Transmission of COVID

The transmission section of the article does not have a single reference to support it. I can quickly use the references from the main article here. A penny for your thoughts? Wretchskull (talk) 09:20, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Must be something to do with the transclusion from Transmission of COVID-19 --Almaty (talk) 10:18, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Question about the lead image on this article

Why is the main image for this article's infobox an image of a nurse treating a COVID patient? Surely it would make more sense to have the confirmed deaths per population image be at the top instead.--NoTribbleAtAll (talk) 19:09, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I'd suggest the opposite. The top image should surely be a photograph, not data. See: Spanish flu, Third plague pandemic, and 1961–1975 cholera pandemic. Others like Severe acute respiratory syndrome and Hong Kong flu use an image of the pathogen itself as the lead. Though 2009 swine flu pandemic and 2012 Middle East respiratory syndrome outbreak do put their maps/charts up top, I'm not sure it's the best option (let alone the only one which 'makes sense'). Bakkster Man (talk) 19:19, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

MOS:LEADIMAGE says "It is common for an article's lead or infobox to carry a representative image—such as of a person or place, a book or album cover—to give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page," and later "Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic." I don't think a graph of data would be consistent with this. MartinezMD (talk) 20:13, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you both for your replies! After seeing that most of the other pandemic articles have photographs as the top image, I agree with both of your points on this. --NoTribbleAtAll (talk) 10:58, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Update map?

Since File:COVID-19 Outbreak World Map Total Deaths per Capita.svg is showing statistics from over a month ago, I think it should be updated. JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK 06:49, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

And should the updated map include an additional darker shade for countries/territories with over e.g. 200 deaths per 100,000 population? Since there are now 15 countries that meet this criterion (with Peru at 582). If so, should Peru alone be in an even darker shade? JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK 07:56, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

By the way I'm currently updating the map (without additional colours for now). JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK 13:04, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I've finished updating the map by entering new values and re-shading some countries/territories manually on the SVG file. For territories not included in the table under COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory#Total cases and death rates by country, I manually calculated their values using population data from Worldometer. JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK 15:33, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 June 2021

Original (In paragraph 3): Several vaccines have been developed and widely distributed since December 2020. Change: Several vaccines have been developed and widely distributed in most developed countries since December 2020. Ace2468 (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

IMO I dont see such a big difference in the texts meaning, perhaps another editor does...--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I think this should be considered. It seems like the paragraph the lede is taking this from:

By mid-June 2021, 85 percent of vaccinations have been administered in high- and upper-middle-income countries. Only 0.3 percent of doses have been administered in low-income countries.

says something similar. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:40, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

 Done RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:44, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Content for inclusion

Would "#International response" be a suitable location for adding a line or three about WTO COVID-19 TRIPS waiver proposal? DTM (talk) 14:17, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I think that makes sense, especially if linked to the general concerns prompting the desire for such a waiver in the first place. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Intervals of infobox map

I've just updated the infobox map for 17 June, but does anyone think the intervals for deaths per 100,000 population should be altered? Currently (only counting countries in the table under 'Total cases and death rates by country') there 50 countries in the 100+ range (with 15 over 200, and Peru at 584), 49 in 18–99.99, 42 in 3.3–17.99, 31 in 0.6–3.29, only 3 in 0.1–0.59, and 4 in <0.1. JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK 05:44, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Suspected deaths

I was recently reading this study which suggests that at least 6.9 million people have died from COVID-19 as a result of an analysis of excess mortality figures. I believe that that, similar to the ‘suspected cases’ field there should also be a ‘suspected deaths’ field which cites the study I linked to say that the death toll is ‘possibly as high as 6.9 million’ маsтегрнатаLк 10:41, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes! it's werry Suspect.

In some countries . Intentional manipulation with statistics on new infections and mortality. And why do they do that?MasterphaNr.2 (talk) 13:40, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Related discussion at WP:MFD

See Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#Draft:China_COVID-19_cover-up Adoring nanny (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

commented--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Map overwriting and wrong captions

If anyone is confused about what has been happening with the map captions over the last few days, please see [51]. As of time of my writing this, they are accurate (both on enwiki and other language wikis) after my reverts, but it seems that this whole thing will need a resolution between users over on Commons before anything can be fixed definitively, or else they will change again. Feel free to chime in. — Goszei (talk) 23:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, this concerns [52] and [53], which are used in this article and countless others on other wikis. — Goszei (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I have uploaded the Our World in Data maps in question (plus the corresponding ones for deaths) at:

• commons:File:Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 cases, OWID.svg
• commons:File:Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people, OWID.svg
• commons:File:Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths, OWID.svg
• commons:File:Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people, OWID.svg

Do editors have any preference between these OWID maps and the ones currently in the article ([54], [55], and [56])? Let's seek consensus. — Goszei (talk) 04:25, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I dislike the current lead map because it includes a ton of small text that is unreadable at infobox scale and presents accessibility issues. The OWID maps, though, aren't necessarily better on that front, plus they have a logo we'd want to remove and don't match Wikipedia's house SVG map style. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 10:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

agree w/ Sdkb--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 01:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I prefer the owid deaths per million because it's less cluttered and doesn't bother with minute differences at the bottom level. All 4 maps are necessary for a proper understanding but one is the max for the info box. But Sdkb's caution about the logo is relevant and one would need to check their conditions to know if it's ok to remove it. Chris55 (talk) 10:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Covid 19 source

I am not a conspiracy theorist but I would like to ask why us, the editors, have not at least put a “currently disputed” beside the source because of current situation of figuring out where the virus came from. I guess I am asking is why can’t we change it from: Source Bats [1] to: Source Bats (currently disputed) [1]

P.S.: I personally believe the virus came from a bat but I want to hold the article to at least the highest possible accuracy at this time until it is settled. Ghost17570 (talk) 15:11, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I think there's two ways to look at it. One is that there's near universal agreement (apart from the wildest conspiracy theories like 5G and meteors) that the original reservoir is bats. The uncertainty is really around what happened between that bat reservoir and human transmission (anything from direct transmission to an intermediate animal to a laboratory), but the original source would remain bats. The other way to look at it, which we've discussed before, is that the category names can be confusing and imply something unintended. For instance, the WHO considers an intermediate species to be more likely than direct transmission from bats. So technically the source remains bats, but it might suggest to someone who doesn't read the entire article discussing the topic that it's more certain to have been directly from bats.

Perhaps the improvement would be to say something like 'originally bats', 'bat (possibly indirectly)', or another wording to indicate that bat reservoir doesn't necessarily mean bat->human with no intermediate steps (whatever those intermediate steps might be). Another citation might also be clearer for those clicking it to learn more. The current source doesn't address bats until chapter 11: The conspiracy theories as an antidote to the scientific truth. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I've made an edit so that the infobox now says Bats,^{[original reference]} likely indirectly^{[WHO origins study]} which should be clear enough even if you just skim it. "Likely" is because the report prefers the intermediate animal species explanation out of the four options intermediate, direct transmission, food chain and lab accident. There's not enough room in the infobox for the whole range of possible routes after bats. User:GKFX^talk 20:08, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

I think that's a good solution, thanks. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:25, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

@Ghost17570:

The current scientific consensus is that the virus is most likely of zoonotic origin, from bats or another closely-related mammal. Despite this, the subject has generated a significant amount of speculation and conspiracy theories, which were amplified by rapidly growing online echo chambers. Global geopolitical divisions, notably between the United States and China, have been heightened because of this issue.

This wording very clearly states the disputed manner of the source. It doesn't claim the source is bats, it says the scientific consensus is that that is most likely. It also mentions that political issues gave rise to the ambiguity. I really don't think anything else is necessary to improve the article in this respect. —FORMALDUDE ^(talk) 03:06, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The infectious period

According to the literature available its less than 10 days the virus can be infectious from an infected person. Asmirwm (talk) 10:38, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Not true. Though this may apply to mild to moderate disease, the WHO says it can be much longer for those with severe disease. Chris55 (talk) 20:18, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Add delta variant

As of 07/07/2021 the page lacks the delta and delta+ vaiant that is mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variants_of_SARS-CoV-2#Delta_(lineage_B.1.617.2)

Requesting it to be added --Kreyren (talk) 16:19, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done See revision. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 23:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

A-Covid-19

Vaccination of all people 50yrs Khayelihlenyezi (talk) 04:56, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Not at all clear what you're suggesting. MartinezMD (talk) 17:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Not sure how to fix broken transclusion from Transmission of COVID-19

There was a transclusion from transmission of COVID-19 which I think some recent bold edits broke. Not sure how to fix it. Also I reverted the bold lead rewrite from a new editor because there is a lot of careful consensus in there, needs discussion around salient points --Almaty^✉✎ 14:27, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

All good, fixed it from the other page revert. --Almaty^✉✎ 14:37, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Mentioning variants in lead

Resolved

Think given the increased transmissibility of the variants, particularly 99% of new cases in the UK being the delta variant, should be mentioned in the lead. Suggestions? --220.245.114.249 (talk) 16:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, a quick mention with a link to Variants of SARS-CoV-2 seems warranted, imo. It's a major part of the history of the pandemic. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 10:15, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I concur it should be mentioned in the lede. The delta variant in particular is widely significant. The lede is quite long as it stands, so I think it's appropriate to work in just a single sentence on the variants in general. Though there certainly is enough coverage and sources to support a new paragraph on them as well. —FORMALDUDE ^(talk) 02:54, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree with one sentence. FemkeMilene (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

agree as well--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

What do we think of adding the following sentence to the very end of the second paragraph?

Several variants of SARS-CoV-2 are believed to be significant due to their potential increased transmissibility and virulence.

—FORMALDUDE ^(talk) 05:19, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @NoTribbleAtAll for reworking the lede! ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 02:19, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

No problem! --NoTribbleAtAll (talk) 09:33, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2021

A more grammatically sound and good English opening line, which keeps to See MOS:AVOIDBOLD and MOS:REDUNDANCY Change opening line to:

An ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) which is caused by the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). Unforgotten10 (talk) 09:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Adding the which (which should have a comma preceding it) turns what follows it into a non-restrictive clause, which makes it a sentence fragment and actually less grammatically sound. It does sound a little odd to me; perhaps we could take the wording from 2002–2004 SARS outbreak? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 11:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:10, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I shall bow to your knowledge of grammar - but I agree, the opening line just doesn't sound right. It's a jarring start to the article but keeps to MOS perfectly. Maybe there is another compromise other than adding which, with or without comma. 2002–2004 SARS outbreak opening line is better to read, but it doesn't keep to MOS:REDUNDANCY.Unforgotten10 (talk) 08:11, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

A simple edit of the first word by another editor has now fixed this issue entirely. It now starts with 'The' rather than 'An' and makes better sense. Thanks both. Unforgotten10 (talk) 14:58, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2021

Third sentence of Etymology has a typo - please change to 'declared' Unforgotten10 (talk) 14:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

To editor Unforgotten10:  done, and thank you very much for the good catch! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 18:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

"China implemented a nationwide lockdown in Wuhan"

Which is it? Was it a nationwide lockdown, or did it only apply to Wuhan? Or was Wuhan the first step in the implementation of a nationwide lockdown? Harej (talk) 00:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I believe its the later 'Wuhan the first step in the implementation of a nationwide lockdown'...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:37, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment. AP News published a timeline which supports that Wuhan was the first step in the implementation of a nationwide lockdown. See https://apnews.com/article/pandemics-wuhan-china-coronavirus-pandemic-e6147ec0ff88affb99c811149424239d and https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/02/21/806958341/restrictions-and-rewards-how-china-is-locking-down-half-a-billion-citizens Jurisdicta (talk) 04:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Opinion polling

July 2021 opinion poll indicates 52% of Americans believe it was a lab-leak origin, versus 28% from human contact to an infected animal.[57] 2601:602:9200:1310:187A:3EE6:6BB5:866 (talk) 01:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Please see Template:Origins of COVID-19 (current consensus). ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 02:23, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The opinion poll is irrelevant, but what is relevan is that this consensus has shifted. See for example https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1656 or https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01529-3. This shifting consensus should be reflected in the article, e.g. something along the lines that the lab leak theory, while initially seen as as conspiracy theory, is now taken more seriously (but also making it clear that it is certainly not a consensus theory). 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:A5B0:E84D:9F59:F3A2 (talk) 17:07, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Hilarious how IPs are banned from participating in the discussion of the origin, and any posted link by IPs is being ignored. 2601:602:9200:1310:5D01:C6C6:AB0B:B4F1 (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

The Nature article you linked amounts to what the Wikipedia article already says.Pancho507 (talk) 07:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Since when is what the American public (which is certainly not the kind of academic, secondary source we should use to write an encyclopedia) believes even relevant, beyond being a clear case of WP:BIAS? As for the rest, that's been discussed ad nauseum on other pages. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:07, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian I am not sure your passive aggressive tone is helping the discussion. And while it might have been discussed "ad nauseum on other pages", a consensus can shift in light of new developments. And one such is that even the WHO is not ruling out the lab leak theory anymore. In addition to other credible (academic, scientific) sources. And this means that the article should not leave the impression that the lab leak theory is conspiracy theory or pure speculation (but noting that a zoonotic origin still seems more likely). 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:A823:10AE:A6F:8C4E (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2021

Can someone:

1. Replace "sucessor" with "successor" in the second sentence of the article
2. Replace "refered" with "reffered" in the second sentence of the etymology section

Don't thank me for taking the time to read the article, I just read the above edit request and got the idea to copy the article to MS Word and run the spell-checker :-P . TubeOfLightTalk Less, Smile More 04:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done although I spelled it as "referred". Thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! And dammit, I didn't spellcheck my own request (funnily enough I knew the correct spelling and somehow typed the wrong one :-P ). TubeOfLightTalk Less, Smile More 04:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tube of Light: Muphry's law... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 July 2021

COVID-19 didn't originate from bats - it originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology in Wuhan. 2406:3400:371:B200:9D44:C5DD:1FCC:EC4C (talk) 06:13, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 06:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Numbers in Italy section

This is currently in the article (Section on Italy):

On 22 March 2020, it was reported that Russia had sent nine military planes with medical equipment to Italy. As of 28 March, there were 3,532,057 confirmed cases, 107,933 deaths, and 2,850,889 recoveries in Italy, with a large number of those cases occurring in the Lombardy region. ... On 19 April 2020, it was reported that the country had its lowest deaths at 433 in seven days and some businesses were asking for a loosening of restrictions after six weeks of lockdown.

Without looking at the source code, in context it seems that the numbers refer to 28 March 2020. By reading the article I wouldn't have noticed that it actually refers to 2021, but the numbers seemed waaaaay too high. The source only gives latest data; I couldn't find a way to show the data for a specific date. If we're reporting the latest numbers, that sentence should probably be moved elsewhere in the section (and updated). Or, if anyone can find the numbers for 28 March 2020, that would also help. byteflush _Talk 22:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

This source: [58] says as of Saturday, March 28, as 889 people reportedly died of COVID-19 in the previous 24 hours, bringing the total number of associated deaths to 10,023. The confirmed number of COVID-19 cases in the country increased by around 6000 to 92,472 on Saturday. I don't know if it's reliable, but those numbers are much closer to what I'd expect in March 2020. byteflush _Talk 03:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 July 2021

You didn't put the main words of the article in the top, in bold. Rex2404 (talk) 03:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done:: per MOS:AVOIDBOLD we shouldn't introduce awkwardness into the first sentence to shoehorn in the exact title. You might start a new, non-edit-request section if you have a proposed natural-sounding sentence that allows for a bold first title mention; other editors might support such a proposal. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I've reworded it so that adding it in would make sense. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:30, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Tenryuu, I am worried that your version falls afoul of MOS:REDUNDANCY, saying essentially: "The COVID-19 pandemic is a pandemic of COVID-19." Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:31, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not particularly married to my edit, so if you want to revert it, go ahead. Perhaps excising of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) could be done, and COVID-19 can be linked elsewhere. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I do support reversion, but as this page is on many watchlists, I am content to wait on at least one other opinion. I prefer bold in the first sentence if there's a way to do so without redundancy. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

COVID19 Nurse.jpg - proposed alteration

Hi, before i begin i'd just like to say that im new to wikipedia in the editing sense and i have only really used this application for reference with no account, so i am very sorry if this sounds very unprofessional; i am merely seeking advice from way more experienced people on this.

This concerns the first image that appears on this article, the one outlined in the subject, Is there any way that it can be altered? It is the first thing users see when they enter this article and the mask in this instance on this persons' face may be worn correctly and its simply the camera angle, or something else, because it looks to me like the sides of the mask are potruding incredibly, which may give off a very incorrect indication to anyone visiting the article on how to properly wear a mask.

Instead I propose that we add this image (WHO infographic on proper mask etiquette) somewhere, preferably somewhere prominent where it will be displayed before of the nurse picture, in order to avoid confusion and any unnecessary danger. (sorry that its a discord attachment link but it was the most convenient method of sending it over)

I appreciate any help in making this come to pass, because i am very unfamiliar with this environment and i dont want to mess anything up since i understand the sensitivity of such a high-importance article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asdiapod (talk • contribs) 07:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Looking at it close, she is probably wearing a mask underneath that mask, which is likely the standard procedure for people work around infected patients. I do not a poster as the first image of the article. you are welcome to look on https://commons.wikimedia.org/ for a better one to replace that one. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

You are right, it would be pretty impractical to have a poster as the first photo to be presented, and i have heeded your advice and ive found a more appropriate picture which could replace the nurse one (while doubtless the nurse in question is a professional and is probably wearing the correct equipment, this is probably not as visible to anyone else and could give them the wrong impression, so it is for the best);

Covid-19_San_Salvatore_09

please let me know your thoughts on implementing this one instead, and I will check this talk page as soon as I possibly can. comment added by Asdiapod (talk • contribs) 21:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

That looks a little depressing, but is otherwise okay. The person in the current picture looks like she is working to save people. This person looks like they have given up. By the by, look at Talk:COVID-19 pandemic/Archive 32#The main image - against policy? to see the discussion that led to this picture. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 03:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree, while initially I thought it was the best option available since it did highlight the hardships that medical personnel have to go through, it is very depressing to see and this concerns the top picture after all, I have looked around for other stuff and have looked over the discussion page you linked, here are what ive found that I think are most fitting (Nurse Graffiti, Pandemic Chernivtsi and highway sign in Toronto files, sorry i dont know any other way to not make them a take up so much space) and i'd like your opinion on (btw thank you so much for the fast replies I really appreciate your help)

Nurse_Graffiti_COVID-19

,

COVID-19_pandemic._Chernivtsi,_Ukraine

.

COVID-19_highway_sign_in_Toronto,_March_2020

comment added by Asdiapod (talk • contribs) 20:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Asdiapod: IF you put a colon (:) before the word "File" it will link to the image instead of adding it. Example: [[:File:COVID-19 pandemic. Chernivtsi, Ukraine.jpg|COVID-19_pandemic._Chernivtsi,_Ukraine]] produces COVID-19_pandemic._Chernivtsi,_Ukraine — Wug·a·po·des​ 22:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, I like the nurse graffiti as a picture, but I feel the tone is wrong for the article. The current picture, File:COVID-19 Nurse.jpg. has so much going for it. It is nicely balanced so your attention goes to the nurse, the presence of all the equipment conveys the dire of a pandemic, and the woman has a focused look, nice skin and even nice eyebrows. It is going to be tough to beat that. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Alright, if you say so, I propose instead that we add a little modification to the description under the picture, adding a very short part saying "Mask fit pictured may give off wrong impression, ensure it fits snugly with no gaps" onto the already existing part. comment added by Asdiapod (talk • contribs) 23:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

By the way, I'll still try my best to find a picture to match File:COVID-19 Nurse.jpg, and thank you @Wugapodes:! comment added by Asdiapod (talk • contribs) 12:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

First sentence

Checking the edit history, the first sentence seems to be a bit unstable. Surtsicna has edited to keep their preferred version of the first sentence five times. That version is (version A) An ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). This version doesn't flow well in my opinion, which might be a reason why people keep editing it. I'd like to propose (version B) The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). I'm also open to other ideas. Thoughts? @Tenryuu, Dede2008, Firefangledfeathers, Yeungkahchun, Johnj1995, and Gerald Waldo Luis: –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:58, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

In your version COVID-19 pandemic is defined as a pandemic of COVID-19. Such definitions are, forgive my bluntness, absurdly unhelpful as well as deprecated by MOS:REDUNDANCY and MOS:AVOIDBOLD. Surtsicna (talk) 11:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that @Surtsicna's version isn't any better for flow in the first sentence of an article; it goes nowhere. There's only one COVID-19 pandemic (so far, and let's hope it stays that way), so we might be able to make it sound less awkward by substituting An with The. Alternatively, we could mention the year it first started: The COVID-19 pandemic is a pandemic that started in late 2019 in Wuhan, China, which has spread to other parts of the world. and then wikilink the disease and virus in the next one or two sentences. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

The sentence is only awkward when COVID-19 pandemic is defined as a pandemic of COVID-19. (What else could it possibly be?) WP:REDUNDANCY: "Keep redundancy to a minimum in the first sentence. Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is not already given by the title of the article." The virus and the disease should be linked when first mentioned because readers benefit from links to essential topics more than they benefit from Wikipedians' boldface fixation. Surtsicna (talk) 15:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

...which is why I suggested The as a possible substitute. This is a flow issue that sounds awkward, as the subject isn't even being introduced properly. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I am not bothered by the choice of article. Either is fine with me, though I too have wondered if "the" would be better. Surtsicna (talk) 18:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

For comparison, this is a pretty typical (but not the only format for an) introduction to a pandemic article:

• The Spanish flu was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic caused by the H1N1 influenza A virus. - What else is 'flu' but 'influenza'?
• The Plague of Justinian or Justinianic Plague (541–549 AD) was the first major outbreak of the first plague pandemic, the first Old World pandemic of plague, the contagious disease caused by the bacterium Yersinia pestis.
• The 2002–2004 SARS outbreak was an epidemic involving severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV or SARS-CoV-1).
• Since 2012, an outbreak of Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus has affected several countries, primarily in its namesake, the Middle East. The virus, which causes Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS), is a novel coronavirus that was first identified in a patient from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia on June 6, 2012.
• The Black Death (also known as the Pestilence, the Great Mortality or the Plague) was a bubonic plague pandemic occurring in Afro-Eurasia from 1346 to 1353.
• The Hong Kong flu, also known as the 1968 flu pandemic, was a flu pandemic whose outbreak in 1968 and 1969 killed between one and four million people globally.

I think the above is solid context, including SARS/MERS which are the most similar given each was a novel pathogen without additional outbreaks to refer to. Bakkster Man (talk) 18:58, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, none of the above sound nearly as silly as "COVID-19 pandemic is a pandemic of COVID-19". The 2002–2004 SARS outbreak comes closest to it in terms of redundancy, but it is still far off. Wikipedia has a big problem with superfluous bolding despite guidelines warning against it. Surtsicna (talk) 19:23, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, but don't think we're twisting ourselves into knots like MOS:AVOIDBOLD tells us to avoid. While mildly redundant, COVID-19 Pandemic appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME, and we likewise shouldn't try to avoid using it. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:28, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

How about "The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic is caused by [the disease] which is formed by [the virus]." GeraldWL 17:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure it is correct to say that the pandemic is caused by a disease; and in any case, there would still be an unnecessary redundancy. Surtsicna (talk) 18:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

The issue is still that the first sentence sounds off. I don't see any problem with introducing links to COVID-19 and SARS-CoV-2 if COVID-19 pandemic is so tautological already. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I would change it to "The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic is caused by [the virus] which forms [the disease]." However I don't see vagueness in my suggestion. I find the current very misleading, as it suggests that Ongoing pandemic is a term for something caused by SARS COV2. Ofc, it is the pandemic, not a pandemic, as not all pandemics are caused by the same thing. GeraldWL 02:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• If we are going with a no-bold version, I propose this: (Special:Permalink/1034675761) An ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), was declared by the World Health Organization (WHO) in March 2020. The novel virus was identified... This gives the crucial temporal aspect that is typical of our non-bold lead sentences.

However, I don't think avoiding redundancy is really the goal here, per se, but rather what WP:BOLDITIS says in part: avoiding "giv[ing] undue weight to the chosen title, implying that it is an official term, commonly accepted name, or the only acceptable title". "Black Death" and "Spanish flu" are commonly-accepted and should be in bold, but "2002–2004 SARS outbreak" is not -- it is instead a descriptive title that we have created, and should not be in bold. I think this is what Surtsicna is getting at, and it is the underlying reasoning of MOS:AVOIDBOLD. All that said, is "COVID-19 pandemic" a commonly-accepted title like "Spanish flu", or just a descriptive one like "2002–2004 SARS outbreak" or "2012 Middle East respiratory syndrome outbreak" (or Hyatt Regency walkway collapse and 1968–1969 Japanese university protests, for non-disease examples)? This is one of the cases where this is not entirely clear, but I lean towards having it in bold as a commonly-accepted name having a non-bold version (see below).

If we are going with a bold version and want to reduce redundancy, I suggest: The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic was declared by the World Health Organization (WHO) in March 2020. Coronavirus disease 2019, caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), was first identified... — Goszei (talk) 03:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I have changed my mind about my leanings here, after thinking about/interacting with/editing the leads some other articles: namely 2002–2004 SARS outbreak, 2009 swine flu pandemic, Western African Ebola virus epidemic, and 2015–2016 Zika virus epidemic. — Goszei (talk) 05:14, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I support either of those options, though I'd prefer if the no-bold option started with 'The' instead of 'An'. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Goszei, that is a fair point too, but I have a bigger concern, which is that nothing is gained by bolding. On the other hand, bolding forces us to either have a circular (i.e. unhelpful and rather absurd) definition or to sacrifice links to essential topics. Links to COVID-19 and Pandemic would have to be relegated to a second or third sentence, and I do not understand why boldface should be given priority over them. It feels like we are trying to bend over backwards for something that serves no purpose. Readers are not attached to boldface like Wikipedia editors are, and are surely more likely to appreciate sensible wording and readily available links. Surtsicna (talk) 22:55, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Ya might all save yourselves headaches, if yas just began the sentence "The Covid-19 pandemic...." GoodDay (talk) 23:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we would all be saving the readers from a helpful lead sentence too. Arguments are appreciated. Surtsicna (talk) 23:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

"Coronapanic" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Coronapanic. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 August 6#Coronapanic until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. smileguy91^{talk x my huckleberrying} 05:24, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

thanks for post--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

florida/Delta variant

anyone seen[59] thats 28k for each day...--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 03:01, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

More prominent link to "Flattening the curve" article

As it stands, a link to "Flattening the curve" currently exists in an infobox with a short animation as a definition. Given the importance of this strategy in combatting the COVID-19 pandemic, I feel that it would be more appropriate to change this link to a definition in standard italics whilst adding a link to the "Flattening the curve" article as a see also at the beginning of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic#Screening,_containment_and_mitigation. Penumbra (talk) 23:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 August 2021

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A confusing punctuation error at the beginning of the article Rex2404 (talk) 07:05, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: @Rex2404: Hello, and thank you for wishing to contribute to this article! I'm afraid I cannot easily identify this punctuation error you are referring to. Could you please elaborate as to where in the beginning this error is? Once you have done so, feel free to re-open this request (or submit a new one). This will help a future reviewer of this request complete it. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 07:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Sirdog. I mean this (The ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).) when it should be this (The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rex2404 (talk • contribs)

Rex2404. Hello. We are currently debating this a couple sections up. Maybe leave a comment in the survey above, located at Talk:COVID-19 pandemic#Survey: First Sentence. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:06, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Survey: First Sentence

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Which of the following lead sentences do you prefer?

Historical

• A: An ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). (current version)
• B: The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is an ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). (July 3, 2021)

Suggested

• C: The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). (Novem Linguae)
• D: The COVID-19 pandemic is a pandemic that started in late 2019 in Wuhan, China, which has spread to other parts of the world. (Tenryuu)
• E: The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic is caused by coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) which is formed by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). (Gerald WL)
• F: (An/The) ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), was declared by the World Health Organization (WHO) in March 2020. The novel virus was identified... (Goszei)
• G: The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic was declared by the World Health Organization (WHO) in March 2020. Coronavirus disease 2019, caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), was first identified... (Goszei)

–Novem Linguae (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Responses

• Option A. If you don't like MOS:AVOIDBOLD, use that guideline's talk page, or show why this article should be an exception. I prefer A to F, as the complete paragraph of both versions show dates, and A shows them in sequence, without emphasizing bureaucratic announcements over the pandemic itself. Art LaPella (talk) 03:29, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option A. The other options are excessively long sentences that do little to improve the sentence. For these reasons, I support keeping Option A. Jurisdicta (talk) 04:03, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Lean Option F, second choice Option G. Any good lead sentence on an ongoing event needs a temporal aspect, i.e. when it began. Just saying the pandemic is caused by X virus is not good enough. I lean F over G per my extended rationale in the thread above this one. I think the leads of some other outbreak articles, where there is some variety, offer good ideas for how the rest of lead paragraph should proceed (and also ideas on how to word the lead when the pandemic is declared over): 2002–2004 SARS outbreak, 2009 swine flu pandemic (I like this one in particular, and it is most relevant here), Western African Ebola virus epidemic. — Goszei (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I will add to my comment that I strongly oppose Option A for misplacing emphasis. — Goszei (talk) 19:51, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Failing consensus for my first picks, I support B and C. — Goszei (talk) 04:41, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

• Option B or Option G. Both read better than any of the other options. I don't think MOS:AVOIDBOLD actually helps in a situation like this, since COVID-19 is not a common term (well, it is now, but we can't expect someone who only knows English to know it, if that makes sense). Identifying the subject clearly is worth it. Elli (talk | contribs) 05:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option C I think this is the most clear and best flowing sentence for lede, for reasons discussed below. I have no opinion on whether COVID-19 pandemic should be boldened, it seems inconsequential to me. ––FormalDude^(talk) 07:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I recognize the minor downsides to this option and propose these slight tweaks as the best option overall: "The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing global outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by FormalDude (talk • contribs)

• Option A or F because boldface should not have a priority over essential links and helpful and sensible wording. Readers are much more likely to appreciate readily available links and informativeness than Wikipedia editors' boldface fixation. I am fine with any alternative suggestion that does not seek to cram in boldface at any price. I am especially against defining COVID-19 pandemic as a pandemic of COVID-19; such a circular definition is absurdly unhelpful. Surtsicna (talk) 09:09, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• option A per Art LaPella--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option B per WP:COMMONNAME and matching the most common format found in pandemic/epidemic article lede sentences. See: Spanish flu, Plague of Justinian, 2002–2004 SARS outbreak. Second choice would be option A which mimics the 2012 Middle East respiratory syndrome outbreak lede, as both are ongoing outbreaks. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is about article titles; it says nothing about lead sentences. The lead sentences of Spanish flu, Plague of Justinian, and 2002–2004 SARS outbreak articles do not feature circular definitions like option B does. The problem with option B is the absurd redundancy, which is not found in the said articles. Surtsicna (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Fair point on COMMONNAME, though I disagree that option B is a circular definition. Bakkster Man (talk) 17:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

How so? By defining COVID-19 pandemic as a pandemic of COVID-19, it appears to be a textbook example of a circular definition. It certainly fails to "keep redundancy to a minimum in the first sentence" (WP:REDUNDANCY). Surtsicna (talk) 17:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Primarily F or G, but pretty much any option except A. The bolding isn't the issue; it's what the emphasis is on. If tautological statements aren't desired, find something that defines the pandemic other than the eponymous disease or the virus that carries it. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• First choice B; C is also OK. They are concise, clear, make the important points and follow Wikipedia style. Strongly oppose A, not at all compatible with Wikipedia style which is to define the subject in the first sentence. Don’t care for D (seems to be making a POV point). E, F, and G are nowhere near as good as B and C. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

MelanieN, it has been argued here that Wikipedia has guidelines according to which B and C are not appropriate, namely MOS:REDUNDANCY. Therefore it is not clear how it could be that they "follow Wikipedia style". On the other hand, I am not aware of any guidelines that state that the article title must be the subject of the lead sentence. In fact, that appears to be directly contradicted by MOS:REDUNDANCY. It also remains unclear how defining COVID-19 pandemic as a pandemic of COVID-19 could be of any help to readers. Surtsicna (talk) 18:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option C first choice. Also fine with Option B, E. I find the MOS:AVOIDBOLD arguments unconvincing. If anything, trying to avoid bold here is what is twisting this first sentence into not being used easy and naturally. I am also disappointed with the slow motion edit warring that occurred to keep Option A in the article, despite Option B and versions of it being the stable version for many months. I saw the original Option A edit on my watchlist and thought to myself, that's fine, we can try it that way and see if people like it or if people adjust it. I did not realize I was signing up to have that version edited in 5 times, erasing other people's adjustments, else I would have reverted it the first time per WP:BRD. If this ends up being no consensus, I think there is a decent argument to revert to Option B, since that was the status quo ante. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:AVOIDBOLD is not the only argument. There is also MOS:REDUNDANCY: "Keep redundancy to a minimum in the first sentence." Redundancy in B is almost painful. And finally, links to essential topics are either swept down or entirely missing from C and E. Surtsicna (talk) 21:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm aware of the redundancy argument. The word redundancy has been mentioned 19 times on this talk page. In my opinion, you do not need to keep mentioning it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I see. I am disappointed that you have never addressed it or the links issue. Moving on, I suppose. Surtsicna (talk) 22:19, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Any other than option A because it reads poorly and doesn't explain what the article is about. I think there is consensus against option A here. This RfC will prove difficult to pick an option with so many options, so perhaps I would suggest reverting to Option B as the one last used. --Almaty^✉✎ 15:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

  Also just removing "also known as the coronavirus pandemic" solves the redundancy issue. We can say that it is a pandemic. --Almaty^✉✎ 15:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

• B or G preferred, OK with anything that doesn't try to erroneously apply MOS:AVOIDBOLD. Doesn't apply here because the title is used in common speech so often that it's become a noun in its own right, meaning it is trivially easy to form a sentence containing that noun. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 04:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
• B. It gets across the most essential facts and only the most essential facts, just as the first sentence should. Oppose option A, which seems to apply MOS:BOLDAVOID erroneously. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:43, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• B States clearly that it is an "ongoing global pandemic", the most valuable information to have in the lede. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 23:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• Art LaPella, is your support based solely on the boldening of the words rather than the wording of the sentence in general? I personally find option B to have the best flow, but am ambivalent towards the boldening of words. ––FormalDude ^talk (please notify me {{U|FormalDude}} on reply) 03:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

FormalDude, I did look first at the bolding, but even if option B were unbolded I don't know why it would need the repetition. I don't get the sentence structure point - A and B are both complete sentences, and A "flows" better for me, as it doesn't need as many commas. Art LaPella (talk) 04:14, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Art LaPella: I read option A as placing emphasis on the verb (what it is caused by) and option B as placing emphasis on the subject (The COVID pandemic). Typically the subject of a sentence is the given priority in sequence and emphasis, which is why I think B is a better flowing prose. Hope that makes sense. I do see the redundancies in it though, which option C finds a nice way of eliminating while still prioritizing the subject in the sentence. ––FormalDude ^talk (please notify me {{U|FormalDude}} on reply) 04:29, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

FormalDude C unbolded does summarize the article better in the first three words (but then so does the article's title), and for what it's worth, it avoids the passive voice – at the cost of repeating "COVID-19", which it needs for people who might not know that COVID-19 is Coronavirus Disease 2019. Art LaPella (talk) 13:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

FormalDude, I cannot see how defining COVID-19 pandemic as a pandemic of COVID-19 could help readers. Surtsicna (talk) 09:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Surtsicna is that how you read option C? ––FormalDude^(talk) 17:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and A too. Surtsicna (talk) 17:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Surtsicna, I mean it's for the lede, I don't think it's unhelpful to define what the title of the article is in the lede. Are you saying that it is not an adequate definition? There's really little difference between A and C except defining the title of the article in C where as A just jumps into the definition. ––FormalDude^(talk) 17:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Forgive me, I mixed up the options entirely, so I'll start over. I am in favor of A. I do find C to be inadequate because it is a circular definition (COVID-19 pandemic = outbreak of COVID-19) and thus hardly a definition at all. We have guidelines stating that article title should not be repeated in the lead if doing so leads to redundancy, namely MOS:LEAD, especially MOS:REDUNDANCY. Surtsicna (talk) 17:40, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Surtsicna: Option C is the same as option A but just ads that "COVID 19 pandemic" means a global outbreak of coronavirus. I find that to be helpful for the average reader even if slightly redundant. ––FormalDude^(talk) 20:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

That makes it very much not the same as option A, but it is not even the only difference. In C, boldface is prioritised over links to essential terms (COVID-19 and pandemic). The link to Pandemic is swept down to who knows where. Are readers not better served by links than by boldface? Surtsicna (talk) 21:16, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes very true they are, and I have no opinion on the boldface. I think the best option would probably be:

"The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)." ––FormalDude^(talk) 21:40, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Novem Linguae, what is your rebut to the redundancy argument? I don't find it very persuasive either. ––FormalDude^(talk) 21:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment the 'current opening' reads like its starting part ways into a sentence. I know this article isn't a biography, but its like if you had the opening sentence of Justin Trudeau begin as "Is the 23rd and current prime minister of Canada...". GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

That would not be right. Do you have the same issue with F? Would a sentence starting with "The pandemic of COVID-19" (that being the subject) read like that in your opinion? Surtsicna (talk) 22:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Option C, appears to read best, as an opening sentence. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you not bothered with going in a circle or losing the link to Pandemic? And how do you feel about starting with "The pandemic of COVID-19"? Surtsicna (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

If somebody can come up with a better version then the current one? Go for it. Note: I haven't posted a preference in the 'survey'. GoodDay (talk) 22:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

My ideal version would be a mix of options C and A: The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).

(Note: I do not have strong feelings one way or the other about bolding) ––FormalDude^(talk) 00:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Can't we just do: The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing global pandemic caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Tenryuu, in my opinion defining the pandemic as a pandemic is extremely redundant. Defining it as a outbreak of coronavirus is informative. ––FormalDude^(talk) 01:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: Pandemic has a different definition from outbreak. Could it be considered a global outbreak? Sure, but pandemics go beyond that. Back when it first started it was classified as an outbreak, but the page has gone through multiple renames once it spread to the rest of the world. I repeated pandemic to provide a link to said article, seeing as we're all being sticklers with the MOS, and MOS:SEAOFBLUE should be observed. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Tenryuu: Are there not new and ongoing outbreaks still in localized areas though, as well as outbreaks of new variants? ––FormalDude^(talk) 01:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: Are you saying that each of those merit their own separate individual pages? They're still under the same group of disease and classified as COVID-19, so there's no reason why they should be separate from the pandemic. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

No that's not what I'm saying–sorry if I was confusing (although all of the significant variants do have their own articles). I'm simply saying that an ongoing global outbreak of disease is an accurate way to describe a pandemic, as there are still current outbreaks and outbreaks of new variants. ––FormalDude^(talk) 01:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

And as I said, pandemic extends beyond just a mere "outbreak". Again, pandemic was repeated in my suggestion to serve as a link to the article in question. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:57, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that wording I suppose. What if we did "The COVID-19 pandemic is an ongoing global pandemic starting from an outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 and caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)."? ––FormalDude^(talk) 02:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

If you do it like that then there's no reason why COVID-19 pandemic shouldn't be bolded. Plus it's becoming unnecessarily long. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Tenryuu I have no strong feelings on the boldening. That's fine by me. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 03:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I think GoodDay is referring to Option A being in the passive voice and Option C being in the active voice. ––FormalDude^(talk) 00:24, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Berchanhimez, Gouncbeatduke, and Sdkb, could you please elaborate on what information is imparted to the readers when the COVID-19 pandemic is defined as the pandemic of COVID-19? You mention "essential facts" and "valuable information", but I do not see that in mere repetition. Surtsicna (talk) 23:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Time to close?

By rough count, I see that 4 support option A, 7 support option B, 2 support option C, and 2 support option F. If you interpret "anything except A" to also support B, and if you count people's non-first choices for B, then support for option B increases to 9. Seems like we have a consensus to change the first sentence to option B. Shall we go ahead and change the first sentence? Or do we need to look into other options such as an WP:ANRFC close or redoing the survey with less options? –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:17, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Novem Linguae, agreed. As an uninvolved editor just reading through this, option B is the clear winner here.  — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Implemented option B. I left a hidden note and will add the result to the current consensus list as well. Shibbolethink, would you mind putting an archive box around this just to make sure it gets archived and doesn't stick around this talk page too long? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Sdkb, Yep, will do. I wasn't sure if that was necessary but I think you're right, benefits outweigh the costs of closing this at this point.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:06, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 August 2021

Could you change

Despite this, the subject has generated a significant amount of speculation and conspiracy theories,

to

Despite this, the subject has generated extensive speculation and conspiracy theories,

If "significant amount" is used to refer to both the speculation and the conspiracy theories ("has generated a significant amount of speculation and a significant amount of conspiracy theories"), it's incorrect because "amount" should be used only with non-count nouns like "speculation". Replacing it with "extensive" avoids this problem. And if it's used to refer to the speculation only ("has generated conspiracy theories and a significant amount of speculation"), both "amount" and "extensive" are fine. Therefore, this change may improve the grammar and definitely won't hurt it.

Alternately, you could render it

Despite this, the subject has generated a significant amount of speculation and multiple conspiracy theories,

because this avoids the grammar issue entirely, and because one of the sources ([60]) speaks of multiple conspiracy theories. 64.203.186.76 (talk) 15:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it is non-contentious and an improvement, so I made the change. MartinezMD (talk) 17:44, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Twenty-Tens Decade Created Today

This is a friendly notice to editors that a new WikiProject, the WikiProject of the Twenty-Tens decade started today. The WikiProject is part of this article, since the pandemic started in 2019. If you would like to join the WikiProject, feel free too, especially if you want to improve information about the beginning of the pandemic in 2019. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

thank you for post--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Date

The date says November 17, 2019, that's when the first covid-19 virus was detected. The pandemic was declared on March 11, 2020. Should the date be changed or is it fine the way it is? Cwater1 (talk) 23:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

which date do you feel is better--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 01:17, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I think the pandemic's date should be changed to "March 11, 2020-present" since that is when it officially became a pandemic. A row that says "Arrival Date" should also be added to show when the first official case was recorded, which was December 1, 2019. [[61]] [[62]] Chameleon790 (talk) 15:28, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 September 2021

There are antibody tests that confirm cases going back to November of 2019. One of those cases was found just in the last two weeks by Dr. Susan Harlow in McMinnville TN. 2600:1004:B128:E187:F94B:B65A:4DAD:5329 (talk) 14:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 14:53, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Request edit to section "deaths" (extended confirmed protected)

"People at the greatest risk of mortality from COVID-19 tend to be those with underlying conditions, such as those with a weakened immune system, serious heart or lung problems, severe obesity, or the elderly (including individuals age 65 years or older).[76][77]" appears in section "Deaths".

I visited reference [77], the CDC website, because I was curious about the 65 demarcation point, which the CDC does indeed highlight. However, viewing the rest of the source makes me concerned if this sentence neutrally recounts the information provided by the reliable source, as it adds emphasizing adjectives to some of the conditions in ways not not clearly reflected by the source (as accessed August 25, 2021, this could simply be a case of the reliable source itself rapidly changing given the current and evolving nature of the pandemic if the CDC resources used to look a little different.

We have 1)weakened immune system 2)serious heart problem 3)serious lung problem 4)severe obesity 5)elderly over 65

2) can be justified because the the source uses a qualifier about hypertension. 3) doesn't seem to be justified, "moderate asthma" is listed without equivocation which isn't generally thought of as a serious lung problem. The page and associated pages describes 45, 65, and 85 as age risk factors and overweight, obesity, and severe obesity as risk each with their own corresponding severity, selecting age 65 and severe obesity seems like a surprising pair of breakpoints to me but I might have my own biases. Since 45 is mentioned as a risk factor the sentence's current implication that age is not a significant risk factor before age 65 might be the worst of how the source is being represented.

Given that the source has a pretty consistent theme that all risk factors are more significant the more severe they are, a rewrite that reflects the continuum could be ideal, like "People who have underlying health conditions are at a greater risk of mortality from COVID-19, including weakened immune system, heart problems, lung problems, overweight or obesity, and middle or elder age. The mortality risk increases with the severity of the underlying condition." There could be other rewrites, I'm just identifying what I'm concerned about, I think there are rewrites that retain the 65 callout (which seems like it has been studied a lot in particular perhaps so could be encyclopedic to include, Reliable) that mirror the source a little somehow.

Popsofctown (talk) 05:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

please attach {{edit extended-protected|COVID-19 pandemic|answered=no}} to your request--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Not done. Please format your request to "Please change X to Y" MartinezMD (talk) 23:39, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

while yes ...People who have underlying health conditions are at a greater risk of mortality from COVID-19, including weakened immune system, heart problems, lung problems, overweight or obesity, and middle or elder age. The mortality risk increases with the severity of the underlying condition... may be better but please so indicate "x -> y " as to original 'top' quote, thank you--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:21, 10 September 2021 (UTC)