Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini/Archive 1

Archive 1

'Furthermore, various videos of the violent method of arresting women by Mortality police officers in the cyber space, indicate the violent treatment of the police against women'

I have no clue what this sentence are trying to say Trade (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Readjusting the sections

Hello. I think the "biography" section should be removed, and its content distributed on other appropriate sections (namely the following one, and the reaction). I remind everyone that this is an article about an event (the death of a person), not about the person themselves, who in this case lack notability (the event however is notable). For reference, please read WP:N and related articles. If there's no opposition, I will proceed to make the adjustments. Ideophagous (talk) 18:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Done.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 22 September 2022

In the last line of the lead, it says "These may be the most severe Internet restrictions in Iran since 2019 when the Internet was shut down completely." Change it to "These may be the most severe Internet restrictions in Iran since 2019, when the Internet was shut down completely." with a comma after "2019." ji11720 (talk) 21:08, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed as a non-controversial copy-edit per WP:FPP. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Protected Edit Request: Iran's president cancels interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour after headscarf demand

Please add to the article:

• On September 22, CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour was scheduled to interview Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi in New York City, following his appearance at the United Nations general assembly. Amanpour planned to speak with President Raisi about several international issues, including the death of Mahsa Amini and the related protests. The long-anticipated interview would have been the first time Raisi spoke with US media on American soil. Forty minutes after the interview was set to begin and before Raisi arrived, an aide to the Iranian leader made a last-minute request and stated that the meeting would not happen unless the journalist wore a headscarf. Amanpour responded that she could not agree to the "unprecedented and unexpected condition" and later reflected on the situation, saying that "Here in New York, or anywhere else outside of Iran, I have never been asked by any Iranian president ― and I have interviewed every single one of them since 1995 ― either inside or outside of Iran, never been asked to wear a head scarf".

(In case it's not clear: can just edit & copy/paste the above text directly into the article, wherever it fits best, as this is my own writing and is based on info from the cited sources.) Thank you! Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

References

• Seconding this nomination. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 03:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Presidentman: Courtesy ping that FPP has expired and you can now make this edit (without expressing an opinion myself on the merits of the edit). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 08:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I think this more related to Mahsa Amini protests than to this article. Though I would keep the paragraph shorter, since it includes irrelevant details (e.g. the quote "Here in New York..."), and add that she was asked to wear the hijab because of the "situation in Iran" as CNN mentions.--Ideophagous (talk) 09:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I added it to Mahsa Amini protests#Reactions with some adjustments.--Ideophagous (talk) 09:26, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Great, thanks!! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 17:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of source

@Roj im: You changed "feminist slogans" to "Kurdish feminist slogans" apparently based on the second source https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111855277&oldid=1111855068. However, this is what the second source says "“Jin, Jiyan, Azadi” (women, life, freedom), the motto of the Kurdish women fighters.". It does not call "death to the dictator" a Kurdish slogan. Please re-do your edit. HistoryofIran (talk) 09:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The original wording was incorrect that lead to mixing it with "death to the dictator". So I'll just rephrase that, what do you think :) — Roj im (talk) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done — Roj im (talk) 09:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2022

typo : The sanctions would involve blocking any proprties ****

change "proprties" to "properties" or "assets". QuiverT123 (talk) 01:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:25, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Celebrities

More than half of these "celebrities" are totally unknown. Hundreds of famous people have spoken against this violence. Why are we giving these few coverage? 31.217.28.48 (talk) 14:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Put some examples with sources and we'll add them. Probably most editors are simply putting names they've come across. Ideophagous (talk) 14:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd just remove the obvious influencers first. Not like the article needs a celebrity section. 31.217.28.48 (talk) 15:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2022

Mahsa Amini was born in 2000 not 1999/2000. Writinginfont (talk) 16:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 17:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Mahsa Amini’s father says authorities lied about her death

From CNN:

"Amjad Amini, whose daughter Mahsa died after being arrested in Tehran by morality police, said doctors had refused to let him see his daughter after her death ... 'They’re lying. They’re telling lies. Everything is a lie ... no matter how much I begged, they wouldn’t let me see my daughter,' Amjad Amini told BBC Persia on Wednesday. When he viewed his daughter's body leading up to her funeral it was entirely wrapped except for her feet and face – though he noticed bruising on her feet. 'I have no idea what they did to her,' he said."

Please include a mention of this in the article, perhaps under the "Reactions" section. Currently it says, rather vaguely: "Mahsa Amini's father, Amjad Amini, was interviewed by various international media about his daughter's tragic death and answered the claims of Iranian government officials."

I think this vague sentence should be updated with details from the CNN article, linked above. Thanks! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 11:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Article is locked, so if someone with edit privileges could make this change it would be much appreciated! Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 11:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Done.-- Ideophagous (talk) 12:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:34, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

So called

Why does it say "so called" and use scare quotes around "guidance patrol", "Moral Security" and "briefing class" in the circumstances section? Aircorn (talk) 22:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Removed those bits. It was that way due to someone copy-pasting from https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-iran-france-arrests-d2885fc65f51a6ee8758791e192c6992. Off to go check the rest of the article for copyvio now... -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Despite my own hesitancy, I think that was the right call. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: It was the copyvio-ness that tipped me to do something. On that note, I've reworded around more cv from that source as well as cv from [1] and [2]. That led to more prose changes than I'd like to make to an FPP'd article, but I didn't really see another option when we're linking to copyright violations from the Main Page. If anyone has any concerns about the prose changes I made, please let me know. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh also, § Investigation is verbatim from [3], but I let it slide for now because it's an arrangement of names, titles, a quote, and the words "asked" and "to". Hopefully someone can add some words to that section when FPP expires and break up the verbatim copy, though. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Also, general reminder to everyone that it is never okay to copy-paste sentences from sources, something that breaking-news articles are particularly susceptible to as people rush to add information. I've warned both editors responsible for it here, who are thankfully new editors who I hope will not make this mistake again; but in the past I've had to warn quite experienced users for doing it on articles like this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I was looking at that too, and it was pretty close, but not quite close enough for me to try and paraphrase editing from my phone. Thanks for that edit. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"Circumstances of death" minor error

This line: "He was told she would be taken to the detention center to undergo a 'briefing class' and released in an hour." That "He" should be "She", no? There's no specific male mentioned in that section.67.83.99.134 (talk) 02:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)corpho

Sorry, that's my mistake from when I was cleaning up the copyright violations, removed a clause I shouldn't have.  Fixed -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 02:46, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Origin of the woman

She is a Kurdish girl!! 2001:16B8:F9B:100:41BD:D2E2:9946:E1DA (talk) 20:08, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

It is already mentioned that Saqqez is in Kurdistan Province. Nationality-wise though, she was Iranian. She could have equally been from other provinces that have their own ethnic groups and languages, like Lorestan, Mazandaran, Gilan, or Azerbaijan, but would still be considered Iranian. Keivan.f^Talk 04:13, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree, but I have reinserted the Kurdish pronunciation (leaving both), as it is probably how people refer to her. Alexcalamaro (talk) 04:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

How come you think that is the case? Please discuss it here first. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

She was Kurdish & Iranian, so it makes sense to include her name in both languages. We often do so for people who have an ethnic identity that differs from that of the general national identity. Kurds don't have their own country, but they're an ethnic group who have their own language. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

And there are likewise articles where we don't do that. It's ultimately a matter if it's relevant or not, which clearly isn't the case here, as this article is about the death of Mahsa Amini, which essentially happened due to her gender. I wonder if the same would have been said if she was from Gilan or Lorestan. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Indeed it would be the same situation. We would include the name in the local language that represents her cultural background (assuming it's different from Persian), in addition to the Persian name.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

It's relevant to her identity that her name was different in the language of her ethnic group. That makes it relevant enough for the article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed! Important and relevant to include. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 12:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but how do you exactly determine her identity? She was born and raised in Iran. To avoid discussing the same subject in two different sections, please join the one above and kindly reply to the arguments I made there. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:12, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Several reliable sources refer to her as a "Kurdish woman" or that she came from a Kurdish town in Iran (e.g. The Guadian, The Washington Post, Reuters). It's not Wikipedia's job to decide the truth, we simply document topics based on sources. As such, adding her name in Kurdish to the lead should be a no-brainer.-- Ideophagous (talk) 15:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm missing how it makes it relevant to add her name in Kurdish (you're also yet to reply to my points above). Though per the afromentioned sources I have no problem in briefly mentioning her Kurdish background in the body of the article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe we just need an WP:RFC & vote on this then. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with an RfC.-- Ideophagous (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Please, see discussion and votes following in section above : "More on the reverted revisions of @HistoryofIran". Alexcalamaro (talk) 07:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

US Treasury sanctions against Morality Policy and Iranian officials

Please add info about US Treasury sanctions against Iranian Morality Police and seven leaders of Iranian security organizations, as a response to Mahsa Amini's death and subsequent protests, especially the oppression and killing of protestors. Sources: US Treasury, Aljazeera Ideophagous (talk) 23:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The Washington Post also mentions this: The United States on Thursday imposed sanctions on senior officials from Iran's intelligence and law enforcement branches, condemning what Secretary of State Antony Blinken called Amini's 'tragic and brutal death.'
Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous: Courtesy ping that FPP has expired and you can now make this edit (without expressing an opinion myself on the merits of the edit). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 08:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It's already done.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I managed to forget to check that. 🤣 -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 09:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Title

Should we change the name of article to "mahsa amini"? 185.111.13.174 (talk) 06:21, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

No, because she isn't notable. It's her death & the reaction to it which are. I moved the article to Killing of, when the article portrayed her death as a certain killing. The article now portrays it as a suspicious death. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

This is a person article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd 49.224.240.13 (talk) 05:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

And then there is also this article: Murder of George Floyd

As well as several "reaction" articles about the protests, trial, etc. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Press TV blacklisted

The government's official response is here "Iran president orders thorough probe into case of women who collapsed at police station" (presstv.ir) https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/09/18/689433/Iran-President-Raeisi-orders-probe-Amini-case

I think the Iranian government's English news website is banned on Wikipedia. Thus, their answer can't be added to the article. 24.125.105.21 (talk) 18:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Many other journals will cover this - and we don't have to worry about RS certification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.31.194 (talk) 19:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Replacing "Death" with "Murder/Killing"

Describing her horrible killing as "Death" (which does not suggest the dying being intentional - the story that the Iranian authorities have decided to go by) seems totally unfair. Any chance we could change the title? Nicxjo (talk) 14:50, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

It can be changed if an official source confirms that it was murder/killing. Wikipedia should only include well-sourced information.-- Ideophagous (talk) 14:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Her killing has been called as such by most sources (Iran Human Rights Group, Jerusalem Post, Radio Zamane, etc.) I hope citing these several credible sources is enough as such event is unlikely to be ever admitted by the government.Nicxjo(talk • contribs) 16:00, 22 September 2022

I moved the article to Killing, but it was moved to Death. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Nicxjo, give history time to make its judgement. Wiki is not a newspaper, and we can wait for the majority of scholarly notices to refer to her murder as 'murder.' 50.111.31.194 (talk) 19:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Name

I dont know much about family of Arabic languages, but I think Zhina and Jina are both derogatory name put on her, either by local media or authorities. The words are similar to Zina. Hysocc (talk) 07:39, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Farsi & the Kurdish languages aren't Arabic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:53, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

(e/c) According to this, it's a name of Kurdish origin meaning "life". It has nothing to do with the Arabic meaning. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 09:57, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

The correct name of this language is Persian, why do you use endonym of Persian? The endonym itself comes from Parsi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.242.219.56 (talk) 19:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

No, we're not doing this. This is not a place to argue about what to call ISO 639:fa. There are many, many other places on the Internet where you can do that to your heart's content. If you continue to use this talkpage as a forum, I will block you from editing it. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

In persian, mahsa ( mah = moon, sa= like) means like moon!

Other persian names, Parisa(like fairy), dorsa(like jewellery), mehrsa(like sun), ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.242.219.56 (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Remove Navid Zardi from the reactions section

In the reactions sections under "celebrities", the article says that "singer Navid Zardi decided to dedicate the incomes of his next concert to Mahsa's family". While this may be true, this singer doesn't have an article and this claim is cited only to an Instagram post. This doesn't really seem like a reliable source and is unduly promotional, with the line added to get attention for this singer. I propose removing this entry given the poor sourcing and lack of importance. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

This seems like the cruft I would normally remove uncontroversially, but as it's full protected and I'm a bit hesitant, I'd like to hear from someone else before I make the edit. Tamzin, any input? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: WP:FPP advises Fully protected pages [that are protected due to content dispute] may not be edited except to make changes that are uncontroversial or for which there is clear consensus. I'd say removing a non-notable person from a reactions section is somewhere between "uncontroversial" and "minimally controversial"; personally I was going to wait for one or two people to concur with Chess, but I think it would be reasonable for you to action this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

A similar thing could be said of the section above, even if it's not formally an ER. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That I'm more hesitant about, as the first cited source says by the regime’s so-called “Guidance Patrol” and transferred to the “Moral Security” agency. As the source is using the quotes I'm a bit less likely to edit through protection for it, but I'm also gunshy at the moment. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Chess and @ScottishFinnishRadish: Should Ahmed Assid be removed, too, as there's only a Facebook citation? — Roj im (talk) 11:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Roj im: Might as well. I'll do it myself since the article is only semi-protected now. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 16:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous: I mainly removed the entry about Ahmed Assid since it's not WP:DUEWEIGHT to include stuff only cited to a Facebook post by the subject. We should only be including celebrity reactions that are covered in reliable sources, otherwise we might as well toss in every single Tweet by a notable person as an example of a reaction. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Fine. I just prefer to have more diversity in the celebrity reactions.-- Ideophagous (talk) 05:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Move the name of article from "Death of Mahsa Amini" to "Mahsa Amini"

I created this article and at first it's name was Mahsa Amini but heavy editing by different users changed the name of it to Death of Mahsa Amini. I believe Mahsa Amini is the right name for this article because she is famous not only for her tragic death by iranian morality police but for her own character as she was a young girls like millions of other iranian girls who choose to be happy and free from Iranian government mandatory laws for women clothes. So she was arrested because of her clothes and she got killed in this way and became the symbole of freedom for iranian people specially for women. her name by the hashtag of #مهساـامینی was retweeted more than 15 million times and she is well known not onle near iranian people but also near all over the world. please move the name of article to Mahsa Amini or Mahsa Amini (Jina). Caravaneternity (talk) 08:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

No, according to WP:N, she's not notable. She's only on Wikipedia because of the circumstances surrounding her death, and as such, only her death is notable.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe she is notable .. Please pay attention to the hashtag #مهسا_امینی or #MahsaAmini .. it is her name not this one #Death_of_MahasaAmini.. Caravaneternity (talk) 07:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The media coverage is all due to her being arrested & killed. None of it is due to anything she did prior to that. It's her death & the reaction to it that are notable rather than her. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Background

Hello @Ideophagous, This part is not neutral but it is somehow trying to show Iran's government as justified and lawful, and it is not impartial and does not reflect the historical reality in Iran. The mentioned law was forced upon the people and the people were opposed to it from the beginning, but the Iranian government did not pay attention to their protest and repressed them every time like the killing of Mehsa Amini. This part should either be deleted or corrected. so that people's objections are mentioned in it and the violent behavior of Iranian government agents is mentioned. Caravaneternity (talk) 07:05, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

First of all, Wikipedia should only include verifiable information, i.e. from statements mentioned in reliable sources. No original research or conclusions drawn by the editors themselves, or personal opinions (unless the opinion is in a source, in which case it should be written in reference to the person or institution that issued it, e.g. "acccording to xyz, bla bla bla"). The paragraph as it is now simply cites factual information, without agreeing or disagreeing with the dress code rules. In fact, it also mentions instances of violence against women regarding the dress code, as well as the official policy of the Islamic Regime based on the viewpoint of the Supreme Leader. We have to trust that, if the content is factual and clear, the reader is intelligent enough to understand it and make their own conclusions, and not try to put or force ideas into their minds.

Second, my purpose from the background section was to answer the following questions:

• What are the "Islamic dress code" rules?
• When were they first introduced in Iran and by whom?
• What State policy or ideology motivates the dress code rules?
• What is the cost of not following the "Islamic dress code" rules?
• What is the role of the Morality Police in all of this? What do they do exactly?
• Have there been instances of violence against those who break these rules? Or is this the first time that it happens?
• Are there Iranians against these rules?

There may be one extra question that would be good to answer, which is:

• How many Iranians are for or against these rules?

It would be best to find statistics or survey results from reliable sources. Are there any other questions you think are important to answer as background information for this topic? -- Ideophagous (talk) 07:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Please You should also mention people's objections and protests and incidents which happened for many peoples related to this hijab rule. For example, at the beginning of the Iranian revolution, many women came to the streets and protested against this law. A large number of people were against this law from the beginning. This is why today people like Mehsa Amini are killed and people come to the streets to protest and we see that the police repress them severely.

all of this facts you can see in the istory of Iran and in Wikipedia in articles like this: Iranian protests against compulsory hijab Caravaneternity (talk) 08:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Caravaneternity: It's just a background section, so we can't mention every detail, but sure, I added the article you suggested to the "see also" tag. I'll try to find the example you mention (at the beginning of the revolution...), from a reliable source (feel free to suggest one) and add it as well. If you have more sourced information relevant to that section, feel free to suggest. But please always check the sources before you make modifications. For example you tried to change this part:

In the last decade, clothing in Iranian society underwent significant changes, and young women especially tend to be more relaxed about applying hijab rules

into:

In the last decade, clothing in Iranian society force(ful)ly by government underwent significant changes, although some young women especially tend to be more relaxed about applying hijab rules

But that's the exact opposite of what the source says actually. Here's the passage this was taken from:

Clothing in Iranian society has undergone enormous change, especially in the past 10 years, with a wide variety of colourful local and foreign clothing available to men and women.

Young people, in particular, are increasingly taking a more relaxed approach to hijab-wearing. This has led to intermittent “morality police” campaigns which single out women wearing what authorities call “bad hijab”.

That's why we should always rely on sources, and not assumptions or self-drawn conclusions.--Ideophagous (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

This sentence "young women especially tend to be more relaxed about applying hijab rules" .. Did you mean all young women or some of them????? surely this one is true "some of young women ..." please correct it. Caravaneternity (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It's written with the same meaning as in the source "Young people, in particular, are increasingly taking a more relaxed approach to hijab-wearing", i.e. this is a tendency, but we do not know if it's "some", "most", etc. That's not mentioned in the source.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

all sources you want can be achieved here in this article International Women's Day Protests in Tehran, 1979.

Thank you Caravaneternity (talk) 08:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Alright, thanks, I will check this and add relevant information with references. The article itself may be good to add to the "see also" tag, instead of "sex segregation in Iran" which is too general.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:26, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much .. I just want this article be complete .. Caravaneternity (talk) 08:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I've added details from the articles you suggested. Let me know what you think. Also, just in case this was not understood well, "more relaxed approach" = "less strict, less observing of the rules", i.e. young women of Iran today tend to be less strict about wearing hijab.-- Ideophagous (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again.. Just what I can think of now is that I think this part "Background" is getting too long. If you agree, please summarize it yourself. Caravaneternity (talk) 14:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it's fine as it is, it should just not be expanded further. Maybe the quote by Ayatollah Khomeini can be removed. But the rest is just what's needed to clarify the context of the incident.-- Ideophagous (talk) 15:08, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• There ought to be a mention of Iran and Afghanistan as the only 2 countries in the world out of about 200 with compulsory hijab. Either these 2 outliers are extremely enlightened geniuses than the whole planet or the they are <expletives>.2601:C4:C300:A210:556A:6489:9A1D:B051 (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

  There are a couple of articles that address this: Hijab by country and Burqa by country

  Although, those articles seem to focus on hijab & burqa bans (but do mention countries where it is mandatory). The lede for both of those articles could be improved. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 00:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Age

Hi there, User:Ideophagous, I hope all is well. I was just concerned about the age of the subject, Mahsa Amini. The citations say that she was either born on 22 July 2000 or 20 September 1999. As of this discussion, it is 25 September 2022. So by that calculation, she would be 23 based on the second citation. Should the age be added back in? Thanks, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

She died on September 16 (possibly earlier if eyewitness testimony is correct), so regardless of her birthdate, she never reached 23.-- Ideophagous (talk) 21:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh my, I forgot about her death. I should have looked at the full details before pinging you on the talk page. I apologize for jumping the gun. Cheers, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 22:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

That's alright. Have a good day/night!-- Ideophagous (talk) 22:24, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Will do! Same to you! Take care, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Kurd

A person from Kurdistan may be of another ethnicity, User:Ideophagous . Xx236 (talk) 10:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure, but you added the statement in the wrong section. Also, we've had this conversation about ethnicity already. Please read the section above titled "More on the reverted revisions of @HistoryofIran", and add your comment there. There's no point in re-iterating the same things over and over. If you're not satisfied with the result, you can call for an RfC.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

hijab

either it's a foreign word and is italicized, or it is an English word and takes proper grammar, i.e, "a hijab". Primergrey (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I would come down on the side of italicized foreign-language word. Elizium23 (talk) 19:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I would not, not in 2022. It has become assimilated and will be found in any good English dictionary [4]. For a list of online searchable ones, see here: Wikipedia:WikiProject English Language#Online tools.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

An artwork

hello, i created this artwork and uploaded in commons. may you can find a way to use it

File:Mahsa amini.jpg

. because she died soon, an untimely death, i finished this art incomplet.Roxjor (talk) 18:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion of this artwork as it is against WP:NPOV as a political statement.

Elizium23 (talk) 19:09, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

how can in fix it?Roxjor (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You can't. The entire purpose of the image is a social-political statement equating Amini with freedom or with activism for freedom.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

EDIT REQUEST: Please add wikilinks to Mahsa Amini protests#Internet blackouts

Wikilinks could be added, regarding the Internet blackouts, in the last paragraph of the lede, and also in the On social media section of this article, where it mentions Internet disruptions.

Content at Mahsa Amini protests#Internet blackouts is more in-depth than what is presented here, so a link to that section would be helpful, I think, for anyone wanting to learn more. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 07:55, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Kurdish Latinized/Kurmancî spelling

Add latinized name: Jîne Mehse Emînî. Krqftan (talk) 04:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

No, Latin isn't used in Iran and Kurmancî is barely spoken in the western part of the country, let alone in Kurdistan province. --HistoryofIran (talk) 06:40, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Zhina/Jina confusion

Both Zhina and Jina are representations of her name in Kurdish with no difference in the pronunciation. Zhina is based on the Romanization of Persian, and Jina is based on Jîna, the same name written in the Kurdish Latin alphabet. The current state of the first paragraph of the article might create a confusion as readers might think their pronunciation are different. I suggest removing the "Jina Amini", and adding its full version next to the lang-ku template.

Like this:

On 16 September 2022, a 22-year-old Iranian woman named '''Mahsa Amini''' ({{lang-fa|مهسا امینی}}, {{lang-ku|مەھسا ئەمینی ,Mehsa Emînî}}), also known as '''Jina Amini''' or '''Zhina Amini''' ({{lang-fa|ژینا امینی}}, {{lang-ku|ژینا ئەمینی ,Jîna Emînî}}),<ref name="ncr">{{Cite web |date=15 September 2022 |title=Zhina Amini goes into coma 2 hours after arrest |url=https://women.ncr-iran.org/2022/09/15/zhina-amini-goes-into-coma/ |access-date=18 September 2022 |language=en-US}}</ref> died in [[Tehran]], Iran, under suspicious circumstances, potentially due to [[police brutality]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |date=16 September 2022 |title=Iranian woman 'beaten' by police for 'improper hijab' dies after coma: State media |url=https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2022/09/16/Iranian-woman-beaten-by-police-for-not-wearing-hijab-dies-after-coma |access-date=16 September 2022 |publisher=[[Al Arabiya]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=IranWire Exclusive: Morality Patrol Beats a Woman into a Coma |url=https://iranwire.com/en/women/107558-iranwire-exclusive-morality-patrol-beats-a-woman-into-coma/ |website=iranwire.com |date=15 September 2022 |access-date=18 September 2022}}</ref>

Also: Hey, @Mitrayasna: Please provide more info on why you did this.

— Roj im (talk) 09:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I have to write her name with international spelling Mitrayasna (talk) 09:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Disagree on adding the Kurdish transliteration to the Mahsa Amini name per the arguments up above. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

What about only removing the "Jina Amini" as it is a wrong representation and might lead to confusion? — Roj im (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Permitted and forbidden names in Iran

This article provides some background on Iran's control of how its citizens name their children: Iran often denies names that are not on their approved Islamic list, names that represent ethnic nationalism or regional pride, etc. So Amini's "alternate" names are germane to the story of her life in a very real way: as a Kurd, the Iranian government did not appreciate her ethnic identity and attempted to assimilate her from the moment of birth by bestowing an "approved" name, rather than the Kurdish one her family prefers. Elizium23 (talk) 04:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes and the discussion above with Persian rants is pure evil. Dustek (talk) 09:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Dustek, the next time you make a personal attack or go off-topic you will be reported to WP:ANI. It's quite ironic that you just accused me and others to be racist [5], but then use the word "Persian rants". --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:44, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

https://english.khamenei.ir/ brought down

Did Anonymous bring down english.khamenei.ir  ? 2601:C4:C300:A210:CCE:366A:4691:B368 (talk) 14:08, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

This article is about the death of Amini, not anything related to the reactions to the protests. AradTheSimp (talk) 23:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mahsa Amini(Jina) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini(Jina) as the bio article is redundant. WWGB (talk) 06:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2022

Kurdish: ژینا ئەمینی SoniaHa (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

This is her name in kurdish SoniaHa (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The article already shows the name in Kurdish. Are you trying to correct it? It is not clear what edit you are asking for. RudolfRed (talk) 04:19, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Word of "Allegedly" is not fair

Hello @HistoryofIran, Some of users insist to put word of "Allegedly" to the article whereas the sources are saying something different and all sources and most of iranian people are sure Mahsa amini has been beaten by Guidance Patrol in custody beacause they have seen and experienced it thousands and thousands times themselves. this is why they reacted strongly to it.

please remove word of allegedly and chose better word for it because we see people have protested against the killing mahsa amini and this protest is bigger than any other one in the recent history of iran.H2KL (talk) 07:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey there! I get what you're saying there, I'm pretty certain she was beaten up too, based on her brain scan photos and the fact that it was reported that "she had suffered a heart attack" although she hadn't had any history of heart diseases, but do you really have video evidence of her getting beaten up? Nope, that's why they're using "Allegedly". AradTheSimp (talk) 07:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@AradTheSimp yes we have tens of videos similar to that in which you can see guidance patrol treat people very brutally. H2KL (talk) 07:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I get where the other users are coming from, this is mostly due to the guidelines here. However, perhaps we should reassess our sources? Because surely, the vast majority of sources (i.e. non IRI sources) consider this to be a murder. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:57, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Mahsa's family has hired a lawyer, Saleh Nikbakht, to pursue her case. The lawyer recently said that the policemen who arrested her had cameras on their clothes.

We will have more sources in the future. Thank you H2KL (talk) 10:10, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@H2KL Currently[6] none of the cited sources for "Skull fracture caused by severe trauma" in the infobox actually state, in their own voice, that this is the cause of death. Our "cause of death" entry should either be left blank, or should note the cause is alleged. This is doubly true for reporting on the skull fracture; while I don't personally think she died of an unrelated condition, it is quite possible as far as we know that the cause of death was some other police-inflicted injury but not a skull fracture per se. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 07:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps something like: "Multiple injuries and traumas (including a skull fracture)" i.e.: the collective abuse, would suffice. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I've added a 'disputed' tag to see if we can get some more input, but I can't see any way to reporting a beating or the skull fracture as facts given the existing sources. I don't have a good alternative explanation, but nonetheless we have to defer to the WP:RS. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:39, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

All refs removed from "circumstances of death"

Hello @WWGB:. You've stripped the section "Circumstances of death" naked of its references. Was there a good reason for that?-- Ideophagous (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous: thanks for that. I have no idea how it happened. I think I have fixed it. Please let me know if you see further problems. Regards, WWGB (talk) 06:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. Thanks. :) Ideophagous (talk) 06:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Government coroner investigation results

The state-funded coroner said the death of the 22-year-old was due to pre-existing medical conditions and a previous brain tumor.[Mahsa Amini didn't die of blows to head and limbs, Iranian coroner says | CBC News 2601:C4:C300:A210:8192:1706:AEFF:8CD0 (talk) 15:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Street to be named after her in Paris

Maybe it would be good to also mention that the Mayor of Paris named a street after her if you can find some reliable source for it, I heard about it on the Mayor's Instagram but does that count as a source? Thomas Norren (talk) 06:53, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

It will be officially proposed, on a mayor's assembly on 11 October, that a yet to be specified public location in Paris be named after her, and that she becomes posthumously an "honorary citizen". Source in French. It can be added to the article.--Ideophagous (talk) 18:34, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok well someone can add it then, even if it falls through I think it's worth mentioning to show how big her legacy is. Thomas Norren (talk) 15:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Identity

@Serchia: Feel free to take your concerns here. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

As you and many others know, besides the identity of "Iranian", many ethnics in Iran want to be known by their ethnic identity, especially in the case of Kurdish people. We can use Iranian-Kurdish term here without any problems, as this is also seen in other articles. Serchia (talk) 18:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

No, I dont know that, and I highly doubt you do as well. I also highly doubt you can speak for others. And lasty, no thats irrelevant per MOS:ETHNICITY (as youve been told thrice now). Her sad death has to do with the misugony of the authoritian regime, nothing to do with her origins nor your want or needs, this honestly looks like WP:POV. Her Kurdish origins are already mentioned down below, where its actually appropiate. HistoryofIran (talk)

For Kurds in Iran or elsewhere its clear their preferred identity to be known for is "Kurdish", I can speak for that. I also saw a screenshot of Zhina's Instagram, which showed there is "Kurdish girl" in the bio. Mentioning ethnicity here is relevant as it is also mentioned by many international media channels (Reuters, BBC, Al-Jazeera), therefore I include this to the article, if there are not further comments from other users. Serchia (talk) 22:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

According to whom? You? Sorry, but your personal opinion don't count as a reliable source (that goes for others including me as well for that matter). I could likewise link multiple sources that simply call her “Iranian”, what you are doing is called cherry-picking. Anyways, all this is irrelevant, why?; I ask you for the fourth and last time to read MOS:ETHNICITY, what does it say? HistoryofIran (talk) 22:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The reason is clear and it doesn't need further explanation, also I didn't remove the term Iranian last time, so don't worry if it is the thing you are worrying about. 16:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

That's not what I was "worrying" about, it seems you missed my point. Also, how is it clear? You are also clearly refusing to talk about MOS:ETHNICITY, so let me quote it for you; "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.[a]." It's really distasteful to be fixated on ones ethnicity in an article about a person who was essentially murdered by an authoritarian regime due to being a woman. If you continue edit warring, you will be reported for WP:POV and WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

"By October 2022, hundreds of people were reportedly killed"

I avoid bold editing because I understand the article is very contentious.

This sentence from the lead stroke me as unclear and not informative - who killed them, and who reported this? I checked the quoted source, Voice of America (VOA) [7] and it doesn't mention "hundreds" of people but says:

Rights groups say more than 185 people have been killed, hundreds injured, and thousands arrested by security forces confronting protests. (...) The Norway-based Iran Human Rights said at least 185 people had been killed in the protests

Therefore, I propose we modify the sentence as follows:

By October 2022, Iran Human Rights reported that at least 185 people were killed by security forces confronting protests across the country

We could also add a link to the article on the website of Iran Human Rights:"Iran Protests: at Least 185 Killed/19 Children Amongst Dead". Iran Human Rights. 2022-10-08. Retrieved 2022-10-10. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Support.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

EDIT REQUEST:

Please add info about the Iranian journalist who first reported on Mahsa Amini; this journalist is named Niloofar Hamedi, and she was arrested and detained after reporting on the story.

Hey everyone, this should probably be added to the article. Very important detail about the story of Mahsa Amini's death! Please mention the role of Niloofar Hamedi's reporting and about her arrest. Thank you! Here are some sources:

At least 9 killed as Iran protests over woman's death spread - ABC News (22 September)
Niloufar Hamedi, a journalist who took photographs at the hospital after Amini's death, was arrested in Iran on Thursday, according to the reporter's lawyer, Mohammadali Kamfirouzi. He said her house was raided. There was no official comment.

'We are risking death': Iranians on Mahsa Amini protests - The Guardian (23 September)
This morning they raided the house of journalist Niloofar Hamedi and detained her. We have no knowledge of her whereabouts.

Iran arrests activist, journalist who helped expose case of Mahsa Amini: Reports - Al Arabiya News (23 September)
Iranian security forces have arrested one of Iran’s most prominent civil society activists and a journalist who played a key role in exposing the case of Mahsa Amini that sparked nationwide protests, reports said Friday. Majid Tavakoli, an activist who has been repeatedly imprisoned in Iran in recent years including after disputed 2009 elections, was arrested overnight at his home, his brother Mohsen wrote on Twitter.
Another prominent activist still based in Iran, Hossein Ronaghi, was giving an interview to London-based channel Iran International when security agents came to his home, the channel said. A video published by the channel shows Ronaghi looking anxious but insisting the interview carried on. It said the activist, who campaigns for freedom of expression, and contributes to the Washington Post, managed to escape arrest by slipping out via his building’s car park and later issued a video message from an undisclosed location.
Meanwhile Nilufar Hamedi, a Tehran journalist who went to the hospital where Amini lay in a coma and helped expose the case to the world, has been arrested, the Shargh daily newspaper, for which she works, wrote on Telegram.

Iranian journalist arrested after reporting Mahsa Amini’s injuries - thetimes.co.uk (27 September)
An Iranian newspaper journalist who played an important role in covering the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of Iran’s morality police is being held in solitary confinement.
Niloufar Hamedi was arrested after breaking the news that Amini, 22, was in hospital following her arrest this month for "unsuitable attire" by the police force, which enforces the Islamic Republic’s strict dress code. Hamedi is one of several reporters detained during the country’s worst protests since 2019.
After reporting that Amini, from the Iranian Kurdish city of Saqez, had been transferred to Kasra Hospital, Hamedi published a photo of her parents hugging each other in the hospital corridor, which spread rapidly online.

An Iranian Journalist Who Reported on Mahsa Amini’s Death Is Now in Solitary Confinement - Mother Jones (28 September)
An Iranian journalist who reported on the death of Mahsa Amini has been thrown into solitary confinement, with no information about the charges against her, amid a major crackdown on the press in the country. Niloufar Hamedi, a reporter at the Tehran-based Shargh newspaper, was among the first to write about Amini, 22, who fell into a coma and died on September 16 after Iran’s morality police apprehended her and brought her to a "re-education" center for not wearing her hijab properly. Authorities say Amini died after a heart attack, but her family says she had no prior health problems and accuse the police of beating her.
Hamedi took a photograph that went viral of Amini's grief-stricken parents hugging in the hospital, according to the news site IranWire, which wrote about the reporter's incarceration on Monday. At least 18 journalists have been arrested in Iran since the demonstrations began, according to the nonprofit Committee to Protect Journalists. Press freedom groups have called for their immediate release. "They were doing their jobs," the Association of Iranian Journalists said in a statement. The country has also experienced a near internet shutdown and disruptions to phone and social media networks that have made it more difficult to share news. "[T]he Iranian authorities are sending a clear message that there must be no coverage of the protests," the Middle East desk of Reporters Without Borders, another nonprofit, said in a statement. "We demand the immediate release of these journalists and the immediate lifting of all restrictions on Iranians' right to be informed."
Hamedi, the journalist who took the photograph, was arrested by Ministry of Information agents last Thursday, according to IranWire, and is now being held in Evin Prison. Other arrested journalists may also be stuck in isolation, a way for authorities to keep them separate from the political prisoners in the prisons' general population units. In any case, they and other protesters likely face brutal conditions in incarceration: One Iranian woman told the BBC that she was detained in a small room with 60 women, with no space to sit or move. "They said we could not use the bathroom, and that if we got hungry we could eat our stools," she said. "After almost a day, when we shouted and protested inside the room, they started threatening us that if we didn't keep quiet, they would rape us."
Hamedi's husband, Mohammad Hossein Ajorlou, was reportedly able to talk with his wife on Monday, and says she is trying to stay calm in solitary as she waits for more information about her case.

Mahsa Amini: An Iranian journalist broke the news of the death. Now she's in jail - Middle East Eye (29 September)
Niloofar Hamedi had long been interested and concerned over the influence of the "morality police" in Iranian society and the role they played in enforcing mandatory headscarf laws in the country. On 16 September, the reporter, who works for the reformist daily newspaper Shargh, managed to gain access to Kasra hospital in Tehran where a 22-year-old Mahsa Amini was being treated following her detention by the morality police for allegedly wearing her hijab inappropriately.
The young Kurdish woman had, according to police, suffered a sudden heart problem, but her parents disputed this. She would die later that day. That same Friday Hamedi tweeted a photo of Amini's parents crying in the hospital. The picture quickly spread along with Hamedi's reporting on Amini's death, eventually spiralling into nationwide protests ...
On 22 September, Hamedi was arrested. "This morning, security agents raided the house of my client Niloofar Hamedi, journalist of Shargh newspaper, arrested her, searched her house and confiscated her belongings," wrote her lawyer Mohammad Ali Kamfirouzi on Twitter. At the same time, her Twitter account, where she had originally posted the influential photo of Amini's parents, was suspended without explanation. According to Kamfirouzi, Hamedi is being held in solitary confinement in Tehran’s Evin prison, where she has been interrogated. She has not been told of any other charges against her.

Thanks everyone. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 01:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand the reason for this request; such a level of detail about Niloofar Hamedi should go in the Niloofar Hamedi article you linked to, not here. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Rolf h nelson: The reason for the request? Niloofar Hamedi isn't even mentioned once in this article!

There is ZERO mention of the fact that she is the journalist who broke the story about Mahsa Amini, and has since been arrested and detained. She took photos that went viral, etc.

The level of detail above is just excerpts from sources. Take your pick. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

OK, I added a mention. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!!! : )

Sorry it wasn't more clear. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 06:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

More on the reverted revisions of @HistoryofIran

Hey @HistoryofIran, I noticed that you removed some content by making a change directly, and not discussing it in advance in the talk page. Before you do something like that, you should bring your intents here and let it be discussed briefly. Also, please read Wikipedia:Consensus. Roj im (talk) 15:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

The Kurdish transliteration is something new that was added, therefore I am not violating anything. In fact, you are the one violating it. I have already explained my reasoning [8]. However, you are yet to do that. You even put the Kurdish transliteration before the Persian one this time, the sole official language of the country. Care to explain why you did that as well? --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I repeat, the revision message is not enough reasoning. You should provide reliable sources. Please refer to Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources. I also did not add anything, I just improved the currently existing content. I would not revert your revisions this time, but let a moderator get involved. Roj im (talk) 18:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Provide reliable sources? For what? Sorry, but that’s not how discussions work here, nor real life for that matter; Could you explain yourself? And why you put Kurdish before the only official language of the country? HistoryofIran (talk)

@HistoryofIran: Could you please give me the ID of the revision where I added any content stating that Kurdish is the official language of anywhere? Roj im (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Huh? I was referring to Persian, you know, the sole official language of Iran? Please re-read my comment(s). Moreover, I am still awaiting an explanation from you. Since you like to attempt to lecture me with guidelines, let me return the favour; please read WP:STONEWALLING. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I assume that you are saying something like "I demoted Persian" or "I promoted Kurdish", and I asked for the ID of the revision where I added some content like that. Also, what explanation do you want from me? That you remove every "Kurdish" you see in the article by specifying the reason in your revision message? This recent revision is enough explanation for anyone. I did not even involve in that section :) Roj im (talk) 19:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran and Roj im: There's no point in squabbling. Since she has Kurdish background, and her name is known in Kurdish as well as in Persian, I think both can be added. Preferably with Persian first, given that it's the official language of Iran.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:10, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous Sorry, but I disagree. Kurdish has no official status in Iran or anything like that, and her Kurdish background has nothing to do with this unfortunate event. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: If you're trying to work with Iran and its official languages, there are around a thousand articles to play with. You may also start by attempting to remove every "Kurdish" you see in the article Saqqez. Roj im (talk) 19:21, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

If you have nothing to say, kindly stop derailing this thread. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not about the official status or lack thereof. This is not an article about Iran or an official government body in that country. Since the name in Kurdish is relevant to her background, it can help users find more information about her, and also show up more easily in searches if the name in Kurdish is included. I agree that excessive references to her Kurdish background should be avoided as well.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but then why did you change it from 'Iranian' to 'Kurdish'? [9]. I have reverted this per MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event. So I don't see why her name in Kurdish should be here either. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I copied the old lead from a previous edit, which was changed by an IP. Didn't notice the "Kurdish" part. Ideophagous (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the opinion, @Ideophagous. I actually am not the one who added her name in Kurdish, neither the one who put it to the first. I just saw the removal of it, and I wanted to discuss the matter. Roj im (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

and while you're squabbling over these minor issues, the article actually needs serious improvement of many of its sections, and should preferably have a background section as well, which explains the situation of women in Iran, regarding hijab law, police treatment, etc.--Ideophagous (talk) 19:25, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm with HistoryofIran on this. She was born in Kurdistan, but she was an Iranian woman. She could have been equally born in one of the other provinces that have their own ethnic groups and languages, such as Lorestan, Mazandaran, Gilan, or Azerbaijan, but she would still be Iranian. And even though many languages exist within Iran, the sole official language is Persian. Not to mention that her ethnicity is totally unrelated to what actually happened to her. Keivan.f^Talk 04:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I just don't see the harm in including her name in Kurdish in the lead for the reasons I mentioned above. Ideophagous (talk) 06:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event." - That doesn’t mean that we can't put her Kurdish name in the article. This reason isn’t enough to remove the name. Because if the kurdish name doesn’t affect the article or description of the event then we should keep the name. If anyone want to remove the Kurdish name then they should explain in a logical and correct way that how her Kurdish name can affect the article. Mehedi Abedin 06:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

And so why should we exactly add a name that is irrelevant? How come the other explanations aren't "logical and correct"? --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The Kurdish name is relevant to her cultural background, therefore it should be added. Any other references to "Kurds" or Kurdish culture, should on the other hand only be included if they're directly relevant to the content. Pushing this too far in either direction (removing all references to her Kurdish background or putting too much of it) is basically inviting vandalism. I would not fault Kurds if they try to modify the article if they see that it purposefully eliminates any mention of her being a Kurdish-Iranian, which is a given fact. But once again, I agree that her being Kurdish is irrelevant to the subject matter (as an Iranian, she would have been subject to the same treatment regardless of her background), and therefore that should not be included for no good reason. The name in Kurdish however is fine to include. This is most certainly not the same thing as including the Kurdish name for someone who has nothing to do with Kurds or Kurdish culture, contrary to what you wrote somewhere above. Ideophagous (talk) 10:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event" is what I wrote, which I still stand by. She died due to the hijab regulations, not her Kurdish background. This article is about her unfortunate death, which is notable, not her as an actual person. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

... and her name in Kurdish is still relevant to the article. There's no point in being ultra-nationlistic about this. Just concede this point, and let's move on to more important issues with the article that should be improved. Also please read Wikipedia:Etiquette.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Quite rich that you accuse me of being ultra-nationalistic and then proceed to advice me to read Wikipedia:Etiquette. Feel free to read it yourself and then WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:NPA. When you're ready to have a calm discussion without attacking others, feel free to reply to my arguments. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

You've just proved my point. Have a good day.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That made no sense, but sure. And likewise. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Per MOS:CONTEXTBIO: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability."

Mahsa Amini was a citizen of Iran, born and raised in Iran. Her province of origin is not an autonomous region, nor a federal subject. Her tragic death, according to the sources at our disposal, simply had nothing to do with her Kurdishness. It was all due to the appaling human rights (and in particular, women's rights) in the country. In addition, Iran's sole official language is Persian. Kurdish doesn't hold official status. IMO, adding the Kurdish transliteration to the lede or material about her Kurdish origins diverts (read: WP:UNDUE) from what is going on atm in Iran per the sources; namely a nationwide uprising. It is not a "Kurdish uprising". I don't see any reason to add the Kurdish translit or her Kurdish roots to the lede of this article per these arguments and Wikipedia policies. However, I'm up for adding content about her Kurdish roots (and perhaps even the Kurdish transliteration) to the body of the article. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

There's absolutely no reason why her Kurdish name shouldn't be included on the infobox, at the very least. Is there any disagreement on that point? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Fully protected

I really didn't want to do this to an article being updated so much, but I've fully protected the article for 12 hours due to multi-party edit-warring over whether and how to mention Amini's Kurdish background. @LouisAragon, Pirehelokan, Mitrayasna, Alexcalamaro, Keivan.f, HistoryofIran and Roj im and Semsûrî: Please discuss, and discuss civilly or I'm going to have to start handing out partial blocks or WP:ARBKURDS sanctions. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why I am included when I edited the page twice cleaning up the templates and not involved in the disputes. Semsûrî (talk) 19:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Semsûrî: Apologies. Lots of diffs. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: So I assume we have to reply here? Though I'm not entirely sure who I am writing this for because no one else has responded. To make my stance clear, I simply believe that when including the native name, the official language of the country to which she belonged should be given preference. Thus, in the lede, Persian should come first, as that is the sole official language of Iran. Yes, she was from Kurdistan and could converse in Kurdish as well, but her ethnicity has nothing to do with her tragic death. She could have been born in another province, and her ethnic language could have been Azerbaijani, Gilkai, Mazanderani, Luri, etc. So the Persian equivalent of the name has to be included and has to come first as she was an Iranian woman, but if people insist on including Kurdish too, that would be fine with me personally. As another user pointed out, sometimes we "do this with people from places with regional languages, as Catalan". And hopefully we can get over this trivial issue now, because the article needs improvement. Keivan.f^Talk 01:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and if others refuse to speak their mind, then I suppose this suggestion could be implemented (Persian, followed by Kurdish), and anyone who changes the structure of the first sentence again would face the consequences. So please make sure to reply if you desire a different outcome. Keivan.f^Talk 01:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I also think this change (inclusion of her Kurdish name) should be made on the infobox as well.

And for anyone who thinks that her being Kurdish is somehow not relevant, here is something from a recent Washington Post article:

Videos show protesters, some speaking Kurdish, taking to the streets in Kamyaran and Abdanan, near Iran’s border with Iraq. Many of the protests have been concentrated in the west, the poor, predominantly Kurdish region Amini’s family hails from. The Kurds — who speak their own language, have a distinct cultural identity and are mostly Sunni Muslims in a majority-Shiite country — have complained for decades of neglect by the central government.

Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Nobody denied that Kurds are being oppressed. At this point, many ethnic groups are being abused in Iran, but the factor that influenced the subject's arrest was her gender and her alleged refusal to conform with hijab laws, not her ethnicity. I think for the sake for simplicity, we can only include Persian and Kurdish equivalents in the lede and don't have them listed on the infobox, as in my opinion it would make it unnecessarily long. But again, let's see what others think. Keivan.f^Talk 03:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Keivan.f: Thank you for your comment. I do not recall anything in Wikipedia policies about having a name only in the official language of a country. Why the Kurdish spelling of her name should be removed especially knowing that her name was actually Kurdish. The linguistic issue aside, removing the Kurdish spelling is against Wikipedia:neutrality. This is especially crucial knowing the prosecution against Kurdish language. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral. Wikipedia is not Iran, and Iranian law about languages does not apply. Thanks. Pirehelo (talk) 04:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It is regrettable that at this time when a country is in turmoil, we are sitting here discussing trivial issues that bore no influence on the tragedy that happened to this woman. Yes, many ethnic groups have been prosecuted in Iran and Kurds especially suffered the consequences, yet the subject's ethnicity was not the reason for which she was prosecuted and most probably killed. It seems that some people fail to understand this. This is an issue that is affecting all Iranian women regardless of their ethnicity, religion, or political opinions. As I said earlier, both the Persian and Kurdish equivalents can be included. There's no point in hashing and rehashing the same things all over again. Keivan.f^Talk 04:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed that the subject's ethnicity likely had very little to do with what happened to her, but as this is a page about her (and her death), it also serves in part as her biography, and therefore is important to include her Kurdish name as well as her Persian name. There are plenty of pages about American individuals, for example, that also mention their Chinese or Japanese names, etc. etc. Seems like it should be uncontroversial to just mention both versions of her name and move on. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It has a lot to do with what happened to her, anonymous. Dustek (talk) 09:33, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

A Persian women has less chance of being beaten to death. Half of the people Iran executes are Kurdish despite the population being much smaller. You think that's accidental? A statistical fluke? Dustek (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Source? --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support Keivan.f proposal to just add in the lead her Persian name followed by her Kurdish one. Also in the infobox (for coherence). My rationale follows all comments made above by Ideophagous. I hope this solution will close the discussion. Alexcalamaro (talk) 05:43, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per Alexcalamaro --Ideophagous (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support same as Alexcalamaro — Roj im (talk) 07:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
•  Administrator note Protection has now expired. It looks like y'all are close to consensus here, if not already there, which is great. To avoid conflict going forward, I have placed a discretionary sanctions restriction under the Kurds and Kurdistan authorization: 1 revert regarding the Kurdish people or Kurdistan per editor per 24 hours. Note that this is a bit narrower than the full "Kurds or Kurdistan" topic area, to avoid a situation where any edit about Amini, even ones unrelated to her Kurdishness, would be caught by the restriction. (That said, I encourage editors to hold to such a restriction even where not required.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 08:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  Hey @Tamzin: @Mitrayasna just reverted your change of adding her name in Kurdish to the info box, and the first lang-ku template. All without previous agreements. Should we re-add the cleanup tag? — Roj im (talk) 09:12, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  That was not my change, but rather Keivan.f's. As an administrator acting here in an administrative capacity, it is not my place to make content decisions. However, in light of the consensus above, @Mitrayasna: I would encourage you to to revert your edit and instead continue this discussion. Please also note that if someone else reverts it, the one-revert rule in place for content on this page about the Kurdish people and Kurdistan would prevent you from reverting in turn in the next 24 hours. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 09:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  There is no consensus. Kurdish writing about the name of Mahsa is a subject that has been added. First, there should be a consensus on it, then changes should be made. Mitrayasna (talk) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Tamzin: Should we start another poll to re-add "Mahsa Amini" in Kurdish? — Roj im (talk) 09:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  I think we have a good enough discussion going here without it being a formal RfC, but that's really up to y'all. What matters is discussing rather than edit-warring, so I'm heartened to see all this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 09:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

This lady's local name is Jina and her official name is Mahsa. In the case of Mahsa's name, I agree that there should be only Persian spellings, but in the case of Jina's name, there should be both spellings. Mitrayasna (talk) 08:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support adding the Kurdish transliteration to Zhina Amini as a comprise. She was born and raised in Iran, where Persian is the sole official language. Her Kurdishness had nothing to do with her unfortunate death, which is the subject here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Initially, there was her name in Kurdish. An editor removed it insisting that it was not a necessity. I discussed the matter, we didn't agree, there was a sort of edit warring, then we got a third opinion, we edited it as the third opinion suggested, the warring continued, the page got protected, a poll was started, the poll ended, the article was edited again as suggested by the poll results, the protection went away, an editor reverted the poll suggestions partially by editing the article directly without previous agreements, and then the poll pivoted from "to have her name in Kurdish or not" to "to have only one version her name in Kurdish or both" and "to have her name in Kurdish in the infobox or not". Now I want to know if the partial revert of the poll results by @Mitrayasna was a good thing or not. I think since we all agreed on that, it should be reverted. — Roj im (talk) 10:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Was this really neccesary? There is already an ongoing discussion up above. Also, Roj im, you're yet to actually come with a single argument, so you obviously didn't "discuss" anything. You could perhaps start with that. And as Mitrayasna already stated, no WP:CONSENSUS had been made. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I see it as necessary because there is an inconsistency, you tried to move the goal of the original poll, and @Mitrayasna reverted what we all agreed on without previous discussions. Roj im (talk) 10:23, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Not related to resolving this content dispute. Can be discussed further at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement or Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents if necessary. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 15:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I haven't tried to move anything, I simply stated my opinion. Heck, I even made a comprimise. Meanwhile you have been WP:STONEWALLING for two days straight, keen on only making Kurdish-related edits and especially attempting to add her Kurdish name in an article about the death of a poor woman, with an account with under 100 edits; this seems very reminiscent of WP:SPA. What is "We all agreed on without previous discussions" supposed to mean? How about giving the discussion a change to continue and a WP:CONSENSUS to ensure? --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC) It's really clear for anyone to know who is stonewalling, some people who are directly reverting or removing everything they personally don't agree on, without caring about anything, or some other who want to discuss what is wrong with them. — Roj im (talk) 10:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC) 'Sigh', that's not what stonewalling means. You keep proving my point. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC) Yes, I, for real, proved your point of trying to enforce an outer agenda on Wikipedia. Let me prove it more, here is a list of your (mostly revert) diffs of trying to do this: - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111626619&oldid=1111624765 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111583463&oldid=1111583421 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111581943&oldid=1111580896 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111575757&oldid=1111575100 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111553249&oldid=1111553159 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111552995&oldid=1111552114 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111533134&oldid=1111533013 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111533013&oldid=1111527688 It's literally every single contribution that you have made to the article. — Roj im (talk) 10:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC) Lol, how does this prove that I have an agenda? I could also post your diffs and say the exact same, it would just look even worse since 99% of your account edits are attempting to insert something Kurdish related here (further proving WP:SPA). Anyways, let's not derail any further. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:50, 23 September 2022 (UTC) Could you do that, please? I would really be glad to know where I was not right. 99% of my contributions, if is related to contents in the Kurdish language, they are only modifications, and not edits. Also, if I would judge like you, I could say that the 99% of your contributions is for denouncing any "Kurdish" you see. For that reason, you would be more applicable for a vandalism-dedicated single-purpose account. — Roj im (talk) 10:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC) I would like to repeat, I am not the one who added her name in Kurdish. I am only here to know more about the constant effort being made on removing any "Kurdish" that can be seen in the article, without caring about any consensus that has been made. — Roj im (talk) 10:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC) So 99% of my 73,978 edits are denouncing anything "Kurdish"? You are just blabbering at this rate. It seems you clearly don't know what WP:SPA nor WP:Vandalism means either. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Not only is it unnecessary, it is harmful and confusing

1. Mahsa Amini is mentioned in the world sources

2. In Iranian sources it is said مهسا امینی and sometimes ژینا امینی

3. In local sources, it is mentioned as ژینا and sometimes مهسا

It can be said that مه هسا ​​has almost zero use Mitrayasna (talk) 10:33, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

You could have said all this before making a direct change. But anyway, I appreciate that you're at least trying to make a point now. — Roj im (talk) 10:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

This is not the case at all. Her name is everywhere in Persian and is preferable to other pronunciations. Also, his English name is exactly derived from the Persian pronunciation of the name (مهسا).

The matching of this girl's Latin name with the Persian pronunciation of Mahsa is a strong reason to write only the Persian spelling of her name. Mitrayasna (talk) 10:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Her being Kurdish is also a strong reason to include her name in that format as well. Why is it so problematic to include both? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I explained above.Mitrayasna (talk) 21:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mitrayasna: If you were Kurdish, or had a Kurdish name ... something tells me that you would be thinking very differently about the issue of representation and identity etc. It seems like the respectful and decent thing to do, by including both forms of her name, as it now appears in the lede of the article. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I am from Urmia and my mother is Kurdish, please don't make the issue personal.Thank You Mitrayasna (talk) 23:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm just saying that it's easy to overlook things based on where our perspective is coming from. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Changing name to Kurdish transliteration

Altering every instance of a subjects name without moving the page is disruptive. An IP user is doing that, and needs to engage in discussion, per the Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle, rather than just "Bold, Revert, Revert...". Why should the Kurdish name be used when it has already been determined by the first section on this page that the Persian name should go first, per WP:COMMMONNAME, then the Kurdish transliteration? Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 02:47, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

When a death is not a death

How unusual not to report the death of an individual in an article about her death.[10] WWGB (talk) 06:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

The death is already apparent from the title and in the article text, it doesn't need to be a line-item in the infobox as well. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 02:09, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022

"referring to the protests[112]" needs a "." at the end of the sentence YASYASHACKER (talk) 01:24, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 01:49, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 1979 Iranian Women Day's protests against Hijab.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The profile image does not quite resemble other photos of Mahsa Amini

I doubt that the fair use file

File:Mahsa Amini.jpeg

is actually Mahsa Amini. Other photos of her face have a different bone structure.

If the only source is

)	https://women.ncr-iran.org/2022/09/16/mahsa-zhina-amini-dies-in-hospital/

then I would suggest deleting it.

Evidence that the fair use photo is actually her would be if protesters could be seen using this photo. But I see none. They used other photos.

A probability that the image is actually her is not enough for me. We need to have full confidence in it. Otherwise I would delete. TGcoa (talk) 21:56, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The Persian and Arab Wikipedia pages carry other photos of Mahsa Amini eg

https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DA%A9%D8%B4%D8%AA%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%B4%D8%AF%D9%86_%D9%85%D9%87%D8%B3%D8%A7_%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%86%DB%8C

Even if this photo does represent Mahsa Amini, there'd still be the question whether this is an appropriate photo. TGcoa (talk) 10:16, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Name

Her name isn't "Mahsa Amini, also known as Jina Amini". Her name is Jina Amini, with the forced official name of Mahsa Amini. Stating that she is also known as Mahsa, along with the context for that name, is proper. Giving it as her main/primary/real name, is an offensive lie. It is a clear violation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. An insult, pure and simple …and Wikipedia's rules/policies/guidelines, don't allow for articles to make gratuitous insults. 155.4.221.27 (talk) 08:06, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Mahsa is simply the common name in the context, since most sources follow her official name/name on paper. The bulk of sources do not use "Jina". Iskandar323 (talk) 11:19, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

According to her family, she was known by her Kurdish name: [11]https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iran-protests-mahsa-amini-cousin-speaks-out

Vibrioidxire (talk) 03:13, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

The fact that most sources uses "Mahsa", is no excuse for denigrating her, by using the name. It is very similar to deadnaming, which goes against Wikipedia policy. 155.4.221.27 (talk) 21:48, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

MOS:DEADNAME only applies to gender, and I can't think of another policy that is going to overturn WP:COMMONNAME here. While it may be true that the Aminis registered their daughter under one name and called here another, due to Iranian restrictions on the use of Kurdish names, that's a pretty unusual situation that I am not sure of there are any parallels for that will have worked their way into policy. Assuming that is correct, you may need to start a discussion elsewhere to create a new policy entirely to achieve this. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

What part of "very similar to", do you now understand? Also, there are exceptions to WP:COMMONNAME. (such as MOS:DEADNAME, and WP:NPOVTITLE, for example)

...and how does WP:NPOVTITLE not apply?

Keep in mind, that the Iranian policy, forbidding non-Persian names, is an intentional suppression/oppression of all non-Persian peoples (and Iran has always been a very multicultural/multi-ethnic/multi-religious/multilingual country, with other peoples who have lived there just as long as the Persians), and an attempt at slowly assimilating them. A form of slow ethnic cleansing/genocide ...or at least to give an appearance, that the country only has Persians. Which, among other things, further works to suppress and oppress all non-Persians.

"that's a pretty unusual situation that I am not sure of there are any parallels for that will have worked their way into policy"

There are policies on similar cases, that all support the notion, that using 'Mahsa' is inappropriate. So there definitely ARE clear parallels. If there is a lack of a clearly applicable written policy, that only means that it is exactly the kind of case, where there needs to be an exception made, as per WP:5P5/WP:IGNORE.

You don't have to create a new policy, and then apply it. That notion completely goes against Wikipedia policy. Indeed, against the Five Pillars! 155.4.221.27 (talk) 14:51, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

• "Keep in mind, that the Iranian policy, forbidding non-Persian names (...)"

Source? - LouisAragon (talk) 14:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

How about the ones mentioned in the Article?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63200649

https://novaramedia.com/2022/10/04/jina-mahsa-amini-was-kurdish-and-that-matters/
155.4.221.27 (talk) 08:11, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Adding onto this as I circled back around for the anniversary. This definitely needs to be updated, as she lived in a Kurdish town where Persian names were little more than a formality. According to her family "Nobody ever called her Mahsa." I think to maintain NPOV Jina should be used throughout the article and as the title, with a redirect from Mahsa.

source:

https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/an-iranian-icon-who-was-jina-mahsa-amini-a-f6399d1e-589f-436e-8408-3c44861ba035 128.239.213.82 (talk) 08:14, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

"Kurdish-Iranian" at Mahsa Amini

I changed "an Iranian woman" to "a Kurdish-Iranian woman" at this article and Mahsa Amini. Please see Talk:Mahsa Amini#Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian for explanation and sources, and please discuss this there to keep discussion in one place. Levivich (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

MOS:ETHNICITY; "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." She is notable for her tragic murder by IRI authorities, not her ethnicity. Please revert yourself and make a RFC if you must. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:14, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to self-revert (of course anyone else can revert me), and please, let's keep the discussion in one place, at Talk:Mahsa Amini. Levivich (talk) 02:01, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Levivich, you disregarded the note in the article, made a controversial edit in a contentious topic without any form for discussion, let alone WP:CONSENSUS. You are well aware of the rules, and probably also that this has been discussed multiple times - there are no exceptions here. If you truly are doing this in WP:GF, then please revert yourself and make a RFC if you must. HistoryofIran (talk) 02:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

If you or other editors want to have two separate discussions at the two articles, we can do that. But if you think we should have one discussion about both articles, let's discuss it there and not here. Levivich (talk) 03:50, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

This is starting to get disruptive, please revert yourself. If the discussion is going to be anything like Talk:Kurds where you kept repeating the same arguments (WP:REHASH) instead of addressing my responses, then you will save us both time by making an RFC. HistoryofIran (talk) 04:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Since you ignored me (again), I've reverted you and written the same comment in the thread you wished. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2024

Please add this new section to the end of article:

The report of United Nations Human Rights Council

The fact-finding mission (FFM), established by the United Nations Human Rights Council in November 2022, has released a report on March 8, 2024 concluding Iran's regime is to blame for the physical violence that killed Mahsa Amini. The mission’s report also found that the Iran's regime carried out widespread and sustained human rights violations against its own people, which broke international laws and specifically targeted women and girls. GolistanK (talk) 09:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done I added this with some rephrasing and pulled a few more details from the sources. Thanks for putting all this together. Jamedeus (talk) 03:49, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jamedeus Thank you very much, GolistanK (talk) 05:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 September 2024

Her name was NOT Masha, but Jina. Please write her real name. Jina Amini. 84.38.154.141 (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This is already mentioned in the article.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 September 2024

Please change "image =" to "image = Solidarity with the people of Iran (52394248943).jpg" in infobox event. This photo is fitted to this article. ArmitaM2023 (talk) 19:55, 13 September 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Khabat4545, see investigation)

 Done but added in the protests heading where it is more appropriate. Bunnypranav (talk) 13:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Merge Suggestion

Suggest this article to be merged into Mahsa Amini Alternatively, the additional relevant information can be ported from Mahsa Amini to here (as this page has more information) and Mahsa Amini be marked for deletion while renaming this page. Wikiedits421 (talk) 16:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Change name priority

Does anyone understand just how disrespectful it is to be called by a name forced upon you to protect your freedom and then even after death to be referred to as that false, forced name rather than your true identity? Prioritise Jina before Mahsa. Show some respect. I honestly expected better from Wikipedia intellects. SolisKay (talk) 02:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Mahsa Amini into Death of Mahsa Amini

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus to merge. Arguments that the pages are redundant were not adequately addressed, while the argument that the pages should be kept separate for size reasons was refuted. This outcome is consistent with the previous consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 12:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Opening a merge discussion with reference to the previous and unresolved informal thread at Talk:Mahsa_Amini#Merge to Death of Mahsa Amini. The content is duplicated across the two articles. The biography article emphasises that the subject was a "shy, reserved resident" of her hometown who avoided politics prior to her death, and contains details about anniversaries and memorials which are missing from the "death of" article. Belbury (talk) 07:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposed merge of Mahsa Amini into Death of Mahsa Amini)

• Oppose This article is already starting to get lengthy and I don't think merging in an article about a person who passes Wikipedia's notability guidelines in their own right is the right choice. TarnishedPath^talk 08:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  This article is currently 3200 words, falling below WP:SIZERULE. The anniversary and memorial content should definitely be in this article. If we replaced the current "Victim" section here with the "Early life" content from the biography article, that would only add around 300 extra words.

  Both the death and the subject are certainly notable, but per WP:BIO1E (and other "death of" articles on Wikipedia where the victim was not a prominent public figure prior to their death) we may not need two separate articles to reflect this. Belbury (talk) 08:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  Per WP:BIO1E: "The general rule is to cover the event, not the person. However, if media coverage of both the event and the individual's role grow larger, separate articles may become justified" emphasis mine. There is sufficient coverage of both the individual and their role in bringing about subsequent protests as well as the event of her death itself to justify separate articles. TarnishedPath^talk 09:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see that media coverage of Mahsa Amini as an individual, unconnected to the event of her death, has grown over time. The biography article still only has a few sentences about her Kurdish name, her personality and her studies. Where her family have gone into greater detail about her politics and health, that is in response to government statements about her death.

  Mahsa Amini's role in the subsequent protests as an individual seems inseparable from the fact of her death. Belbury (talk) 10:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  There has continued to be coverage of her, her death and the protests/movement for change after her death. All three are notable topics.

  Fresh Iran sanctions two years after Mahsa Amini death

  Two years after the death of Mahsa Amini, a ‘quiet revolution’ is still under way in Iran

  Iran two years after Mahsa Amini's death

  Reflections on the Death of Mahsa Amini & the Irreversible Wave of Dissent in Iran | Wilson Center

  Two years on, honoring Mahsa Amini and the Iranian people’s fight for dignity - JNS.org

  Mahsa Amini: Women's social media posts risking punishment in Iran

  As the world's attention focuses on a regional war, Iran's women are fighting a 'quiet revolution'

  Two years on, Iran may have stifled Mahsa Amini unrest, but dissidence remains - Al-Monitor: The Middle Eastʼs leading independent news source since 2012

  Women in Iran are going without hijabs as the 2nd anniversary of Mahsa Amini's death approaches

  Mahsa Amini: Iran responsible for 'physical violence' leading to death, UN says

  Mahsa Amini died in Iran police custody 1 year ago. What's changed since then — and what hasn't? - CBS News

  Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman who died in police custody, is awarded EU human rights prize

  Five things to know about the legacy of Mahsa Amini | Chatham House – International Affairs Think Tank

  Mahsa Amini's family banned from leaving Iran to collect top human rights award

  Sakharov Prize: Parliament honours Jina Mahsa Amini and Iranian women protesters | News | European Parliament

  Who was Mahsa Amini, whose death sparked Iran protests?

  Mahsa Amini: The Spark That Ignited A Women-Led Revolution

  https://www.npr.org/2023/12/10/1218439893/iran-blocks-mahsa-aminis-family-from-collecting-a-human-rights-prize-in-her-name

  Mahsa Amini remembered by Sakharov Freedom Prize

  Jina Mahsa Amini and Iranian women protest movement win the 2023 Sakharov Prize | News | European Parliament

  Mahsa Amini honoured with EU’s top human rights prize

  Mahsa Amini awarded EU's Sakharov human rights prize

  Iran bans Mahsa Amini’s family from traveling to receive the European Union’s top human rights prize

  Mahsa Amini’s name is ‘secret code for freedom’ says mother as EU presents award TarnishedPath^talk 10:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support there is several overlapping paragraphs including the family, death and early life. If both pages are merged it will be not necessarily bigger. Shadow4dark (talk) 15:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose both article are notable and have there own contents which are related directly to them. It is quite natural some paragraphs be overlapping because of the nature of the subjects. It is wondering why some users want to merge these articles but there are same articles in Wikipedia like George Floyd and Murder of George Floyd and those users are not interested to merge them or even providing discussion for it. However theses articles are related to political matters in Middle east and maybe some people who are in the opposite side want to merge these articles but Wikipedia has it's own rules. ThanksAlijenabH (talk) 18:37, 4 October 2024 (UTC)— AlijenabH (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

comment in Persian Wikipedia this account has sockpuppet warning https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%AB_%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B1:AlijenabH as recent accounts on this talk page are blocked for sockpuppetry this should be not ignored. Shadow4dark (talk) 21:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Unless you can demonstrate that the editor is a sock on enwiki, that is not a policy based argument. TarnishedPath^talk 00:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Check the sock investigation page the user is involved in cross wiki socking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Khabat4545 Shadow4dark (talk) 00:27, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The editor isn't mentioned there. Until such time as you start an investigation on this editor and that they are confirmed as a sock you're engaged in speculation. TarnishedPath^talk 00:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The Mahsa Amini article was created by a sockpuppet of User:Khabat4545 who used at least two eight other sock accounts to support themselves in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini. I don't know if it's worth an SPI, but it's relevant context that the article creator has used single-purpose sockpuppet accounts to oppose deletion/merging in the past. I'll add an SPA template to the comment above. --Belbury (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

That might be an argument for deletion if the article did not have significant edits by other none-sock editors. Given that the article has significant edits by multiple editors, who aren't socks, that isn't an argument for anything. TarnishedPath^talk 23:08, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Not intending it as an argument for deletion, just context for how this discussion is read. Belbury (talk) 09:37, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

There was no {{old afd}} template on the biography article talk page, so until my previous comment I hadn't realised that this issue had previously been discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini in October 2022. There was a rough consensus to merge the two articles at that time, while recognising that a separate biography might be created in future once there are more good sources available describing her life story, and details about who she was as a person. Is that the case, two years on? --Belbury (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

There has been continued coverage of her, her death and the resulting protests. Refer to the links I provided above. TarnishedPath^talk 23:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Do they describe her life story and who she was as a person in more detail than the sources from October 2022? Belbury (talk) 09:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that you probably do not have any information about Iran and women in Iran and their fifty-year struggle for freedom. All sources indicate that Mahsa Amini stood against Iran's mandatory hijab law, and because of this, she was arrested and died there. Because of this courageous act, she became famous and all the women and girls of Iran try to stand and resist against the forced hijab like her since 2022. The rest of the details of her and her family's life are also given in the sources, which I suggest you study and do not judge without studying. AlijenabH (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand the context. The question is whether current sources describe her personal life in more detail than the sources did in October 2022, because that was the crux of the "merge for now" AfD closure. Belbury (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes certainly now the sources specially the persian sources give you more information in detail not only about her but about her parents. Even there are more photos and videos of her which have been recently published. AlijenabH (talk) 01:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Comparing the October 2022 version of the biography to the current one, the only additions I can see are that:

• her mother was an active member of the Parents and Teachers Association for three years at various schools
• Amini did not follow the news
• she did not have many friends and mostly socialized with her relatives
• she was admired by her teachers as a model student
• she aspired to be a doctor rather than, as the earlier version states, a lawyer
• she had temporarily set aside her ambition to become a doctor
• she belonged to a moderately religious, middle-class family that cherished their children
• there are some sentences about how she chose to wear hijab half-heartedly, did not observe the hijab in various events such as weddings and wore traditional Kurdish clothes that do not have a hijab and partially observed hijab when traveling to tourist areas but none of these statements are adequately sourced at present

The personal life section has gone from around 300 words to around 500 words in that time. If sources since 2022 have provided more detailed information about Amini's life, not much of this has actually been added to the article. Belbury (talk) 08:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Dear @Belbury, I am truly sorry, but your unfair criticisms are not acceptable. Firstly, the day-to-day details of her life is not necessary and even not possible to be included in the article, as no articles about famous individuals on Wikipedia contain such information. Secondly, based on the conclusions of the previous disscussion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini it was recommended: The result was merge with an option to split in the near future. There is no mention of article expansion, as that is unfeasible for any of Wikipedia articles. Even they has said about George Floyd there are multiple pages about him, including the aforementioned bio bearing his name.

Moreover, upon reviewing the article's history of Mahsa Amini, I observed that numerous contents have been deleted for various reasons such as sockpuppetry, and these materials should be reinstated.

As I mentioned, there seem to be several users in the history of these articles who likely hold opposing political views and have removed a substantial amount of information from these articles. Nevertheless, I believe it is crucial and enough just to understand what makes her renowned. AlijenabH (talk) 03:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The only significant removal I see in the history is this edit of a user taking out 3k of "excessive non encyclopedic details" five months ago, most of which seems to be either unsourced or unsupported by the sources. Is there anything removed by that which you'd consider to be "crucial", and which can be sourced? Are there other specific removals which you think should be restored? Belbury (talk) 08:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

All changes are in the history of both articles and it is accessible easily for everyone. The first version of Mahsa Amini was this and you can see how much her personal life information have been removed. Some destructive changes like this or this or this and this and this and this and too many other small and big changes.Some of them have been reverted but some of them never. Even the photo of infobox of Death of Mahsa Amini has been deleted whereas it is used in the persian wikipedia like this. Why did they removed this photo while it was Ok about copyright, I don't know. Also I'm wondering why some users in wiki english are determined for monthes and years to destroy the articles related to Mahsa Amini whereas there are millions of articles in this wiki which need to be improved???!!!! I think they have personal reasons for that and they are not looking for wikipedia improvement.

In persian wiki you can see there are too many articles related to Mahsa Amini including her bio and her death and Her funeral and so on. So why we must not have them in english wiki?

At the end Dear @Belbury let's finish our discussion here because there are too many things to discuss. I hope wiki english manager do the best to this articles. AlijenabH (talk) 17:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Incorrect image caption grammar

On the CT scan, the caption reads: "Low-res copy of Amini post-arrest CT scan allegedly leaked to Iran International". It's not alleged that the images were leaked, per the source. What's alleged is that they're of the subject. The caption should read: "A low-resolution copy of an alleged CT scan of Amini post-arrest that was leaked to Iran International." The latter quote also expands sentence fragments into a complete sentence. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 19:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

 Done, caption updated. Belbury (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Belbury, and thank you for the tip on my talk page about page edit requests! --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 14:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)