Talk:Little Saint James, U.S. Virgin Islands

Island or islet?

RS have repeatedly called it an island; per NYT it is "a roughly 70-acre island." A recent addition says it is "more accurately, an islet" citing a guidebook. "Islet" is not a technical term; it just describes any small island. For example, the uninhabited Loggerhead Key covers 49 acres but is widely described as an "island" not an "islet." "Islet" is more typically used for very small uninhabited islands such as Imia (9.9 acres). HouseOfChange (talk) 16:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2024

Vadermask (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

FBI recovered tens of thousands of instances of pedophilia recorded onto hard drives, CDs and DVDs. We watched them leave the island with the goods.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Rehsarb (talk) 14:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Undiscussed move to Epstein Island

The island's name is Little Saint James. "Epstein Island" may be a common slang usage, but it seems un-encyclopedic to use a pejorative nickname for a geographical location. Before anyone moves the article again, I would like to see some discussion about it. HouseOfChange (talk) 14:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

The move was in full accordance with wikipedia policies, but ill initiate a RM Abo Yemen✉ 14:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 2 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 04:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

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Little Saint James, U.S. Virgin Islands → Epstein Island – per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE Abo Yemen✉ 14:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose "Epstein Island" is less, not more, common than "Little Saint James," per Google (1,350,000 results vs 1,660,000,000 results.) I oppose changing the title of this encyclopedia article about a geographical location to a vulgar recent nickname. HouseOfChange (talk) 15:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Google trends graph shows that both names are somewhat close to each other, and sometimes the name "Epstein Island" receives slightly more search results Abo Yemen✉ 23:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support More search results and COMMONNAME. I only hear Epstein Island, but that's just me. 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 12:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Nominator has adduced no evidence that the nickname "Epstein Island" is the COMMONNAME of the island. Zacwill (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

See Google Trends, which shows a slight preference to Epstein Isl. 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 18:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Google Trends merely tells us what people are typing into Google. It does not tell us anything about what "independent, reliable, English-language sources" are using, and so it is not very useful when it comes to determining what the COMMONNAME is. Zacwill (talk) 19:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I suppose. I think Google News can show phrase prevalence but I don't want to fiddle with booleans at the moment. 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 21:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I would however support the removal of the unnecessary disambiguator "U.S. Virgin Islands", in accordance with WP:CONCISE. WP:USPLACES mandates the inclusion of state and territory names when it comes to "populated places", but this does not seem to apply to islands (cf. Martha's Vineyard and Santa Cruz Island). Zacwill (talk) 19:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support… unfortunately. In no way to endorse the etymology. But it is the islands common name. There are probably examples of where common names are used over official names for island. I’ll have a look, but for now the example that pops into my head is Big Ben. An unfortunate common name. Amending my vote to include Jeffrey Epstein’s island as my second choice, which I strongly support. As per: Judge Wakefield's house, Samuel Ferguson's cottage, José Rizal's farm, Bill Gates’s house, Osama bin Laden's house in Khartoum, Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, George Washington's tent, Mozart's birthplace, Harriet Tubman's birthplace, Gough Whitlam's birthplace, Adolf Hitler's private library, and Adolf Hitler's Munich apartment. I don’t think many people will know what ‘Little Saint James’ refers to. 10001731848a (talk) 10:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC) — 10001731848a (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  It took me 1 minute to find an example: São Luís Island. Its official name is Upaon-açu Island. 10001731848a (talk) 10:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another example: Aquidneck Island, which is officially named 'Rhode Island' 10001731848a (talk) 11:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another example: Fraser Island which is officially named 'K’gari'. To note, this is not the same as anglicising a name, as 'Fraser' is not an anglicisation of ‘K’gari', it would be called Cagarry Island, or something similar if it was anglicised. 10001731848a (talk) 11:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another example: Sunset Key, its official name is 'Tank Island'. 10001731848a (talk) 11:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another example: Thitu Island is the international common name for 'Pag-asa Island'. 10001731848a (talk) 11:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  On it specifically being the common name for the island: ”According to a prior real estate listing, “Epstein Island” also included” (https://nypost.com/2024/01/02/news/what-happened-to-jeffrey-epsteins-private-island-little-st-james/). ”The claim: The Clinton Foundation purchased ‘Epstein Island’” (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2024/03/22/clinton-foundation-did-not-buy-epstein-island-fact-check/73068321007/). ”Epstein Island includes a helipad, private dock” (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/jeffrey-epsteins-islands-under-rebranding-and-image-makeover/articleshow/106502896.cms?from=mdr). ”Sean 'Diddy' Combs' luxury yacht draws comparisons to Epstein Island” (https://www.foxnews.com/us/sean-diddy-combs-luxury-yacht-draws-comparisons-epstein-island-amid-sex-trafficking-probe). ”Where Is Epstein Island? Everything To Know About Little Saint James…” “the first of which became notorious as Epstein Island”.(https://www.womenshealthmag.com/life/a40603323/jeffrey-epstein-island/). ”Fact Check: Did Bill Gates Visit Epstein Island 37 Times?” (https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-bill-gates-visit-epstein-island-37-times-1782440). ”Forbes Daily: Epstein Island Billionaire Buyer” (https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahwhitmire/2023/05/04/forbes-daily-epstein-island-billionaire-buyer/) "new information about visitors to Epstein Island" "there is about Clinton's relationship with Epstein and whether he visited Epstein Island" "Did Bill Clinton Visit Epstein Island?" "Giuffre claims that she met Clinton on Epstein Island.""Clinton, Doug Band, told Vanity Fair that the former president visited Epstein Island. (https://www.newsweek.com/did-bill-clinton-visit-jeffrey-epstein-island-what-we-know-1857039). "owned two private islands – Little Saint James, or “Epstein Island" (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/01/us-virgin-islands-subpoenas-epstein-businessmen). "I will say this, if it turns out Trump ever went to Epstein Island, I will remove any support from him" (https://newrepublic.com/post/177828/conservatives-meltdown-trump-epstein-list). "FBI and NYPD Officers Seen in Drone Footage of Epstein Island Raid" (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/fbi-nypd-officers-seen-drone-153347760.html). "Nor is there evidence that he visited Epstein Island" (https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/movies/friends-actor-matthew-perry-not-190812589.html). "Epstein documents don't prove Hillary Clinton visited Epstein Island" (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2024/01/12/no-proof-hillary-clinton-visited-epstein-island-fact-check/72180919007/). "What we have seen is radical leftists and the teachers unions turning our schools into Epstein Island" (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/walters-smears-oklahoma-teachers_n_65aeefa1e4b0f55c6e307ce9). 10001731848a (talk) 11:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Note that (almost) all of the sources you have adduced also use the name "Little Saint James", and most of them print "Epstein Island" in quotes – signifying that it is a colloquial appellation and not the actual name of the island. Using the name for this article would be a bit like renaming the Ireland article "Emerald Isle" or the Islay article "Queen of the Hebrides". I don't think anyone disputes the basic fact that a place can have more than one name, so I'm not sure what the purpose of citing names like "Aquidneck" was. Zacwill (talk) 12:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I’m not disputing it’s the "actual name of the island", I’m basing my strong support on its common name, which is 'Epstein Island'. Ireland is most commonly referred to as 'Ireland', and Islay is most commonly referred to as 'Islay'. Currently, it’s closer to if the Big Ben article was called titled 'Elizabeth Tower' (its actual name), or the Aquidneck article being titled 'Rhode Island' (its actual name). In a lot of articles I have read about Big Ben I am often reminded that it’s "officially called “Elizabeth Tower”". I also think 'Epstein Island' is, unfortunately, more encylopedic, as I don’t believe most people will know what "Little Saint James" refers to. I personally see 'Epstein Island' way more, but I’d also strongly support Jeffrey Epstein’s island as per Bill Gates’s house and Osama bin Laden's house in Khartoum. 10001731848a (talk) 13:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy move. ‘Epstein Island’ is neutral and is not vulgar. It’s on the same level as Trump wall. The other names this island has are vulgar. 124.35.100.164 (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC) — 124.35.100.164 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia is also WP:NOTCENSORED and there are articles with non-official vulgar common titles, that are named after people that some would consider vulgar people: LeConte Hall is the former name for buildings ‘Physics South’ and ‘Physics North’, named after a white supremacist. Nixon's Florida White House is titled after the impeached president. Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award is now known simply as 'Video Vanguard Award'. Hitler teapot is a nickname given to ‘Michael Graves Design Bells and Whistles Stainless Steel Tea Kettle’. Trump Force One and Trump wall. There isn’t an Wikipedia article for every single island. This island’s notability stems only from its most well known owner, and the things that that owner did on it. 121.133.161.148 (talk) 23:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC) — 121.133.161.148 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Strong support with speedy close. The supporters above have given policy-based reasoning like WP:COMMONNAME, provided Google search results which list ‘Epstein Island’ as higher. Opposers who say the name is vulgar or inappropriate have been met with other articles with objectively more vulgar titles (which are not the official name) like Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award and Hitler teapot. Sources have also been provided showing Forbes, Newsweek, USA Today, NYPost, and The Guardian calling it ‘Epstein Island’. Opposers seem to be basing around the fact that they WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, lacking policy-based reasoning. Regretfully, the island is most known as 'Epstein Island'. 211.197.156.44 (talk) 01:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC) — 211.197.156.44 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

   Comment: This IP geolocates very near to 124.35.100.164. 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 01:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, several IPs have made no other en-wiki edits aside from their "Support" !Vote here. HouseOfChange (talk) 12:01, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  🧦? 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 12:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Consider these edit histories, 4 support !votes interested in nothing at en-wiki except this discussion: Special:Contributions/10001731848a, Special:Contributions/211.197.156.44, Special:Contributions/121.133.161.148, Special:Contributions/124.35.100.164. I have asked for some admin oversight at ANI. HouseOfChange (talk) 12:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  2 of the IPs are located in SK, 1 in JP. Probably IP-hopping between the two, but there's that 1 unrelated Japanese IP (or canvassing going on).

  User:10001731848a is new, but registered before the move, so they could be coincidentally participating or preemptively created by Abo Yemen to sock.

  Wonder if a CU is in order? 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 13:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not only you're not assuming good faith but also you've got my location wrong too Abo Yemen✉ 16:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  You're right, I mis-phrased things--I didn't mean to imply you were socking. Your typical editing times don't even line up, for instance. Sorry about that! 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 16:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Dw it's fine, I am well aware of WP:NOTAVOTE too. The main purpose of this RM is just to shorten the name of the article Abo Yemen✉ 17:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per HouseOfChange and WP:20YT. With time it's likely that the recent stories about Epstein will fade as all stories do and the coverage so far fails to reach WP:COMMONNAME. Nemov (talk) 13:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:Crystal Abo Yemen✉ 17:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  I saw you mention a AGF above. Thanks for reading WP:20YT. Nemov (talk) 17:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  (sorry if this sounds dumb but i am not a native and my guess is that you're being sarcastic because i didn't really read anything) Abo Yemen✉ 18:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely no idea what is going on above, but oppose. This is a casual/vernacular nickname that does not quite reach common name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. No evidence of common name. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Epstein Island" is either a nickname or (as in many of the examples linked above) is being used as a 'headline shorthand' term for "Epstein's island" with the text of the story clearly indicating that it's a possessive term and/or referring to the island as Little St James, or putting the term in quotation marks. Brunton (talk) 16:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bolding alternate names

The MOS:BOLDALTNAMES guidance describes bolding for "alternate names" in the sense that "Mumbai" is an alternate name for "Bombay." Colloquial nicknames such as "Island of Sin" do not rise to this level of either prominence or equivalence, and should not be bolded in the lead. HouseOfChange (talk) 01:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I removed Island of Sin from the lede entirely. Epstein Island and Pedophile Island rise above merely colloquial names. They are more popular names than "Little Saint James" RobotGoggles (talk) 18:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)