Talk:The Black Cauldron (film)

The meaning of censorship

Isn't "censorship" a bit strong in this particular case? I can understand the desire to emphasize that the intent of the film's creators was compromised by business interests, but insofar as censorship is usually something imposed by an outside insitution (usually the government or the church) for security or moral purposes, I'd say that this should more properly be characterized as a conflict of editorial interests.

I only mention this because the article as it stands takes the strong POV that these cuts were imposed on the filmmakers only after the film was completed, which I find hard to believe. I would imagine that some conflict was obvious even during the planning stage, that the filmmakers knew which scenes were candidates for deletion, and that management, too, decided to view the completed film before ordering the deletion of what they felt was questionanable content. That, of course, is speculation on my part.

Anyway, it's an interesting subject and I wish the article contained a more detailed explanation of the actual process in which these decisions were made.

Spventi 22:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but censorship is accurate. The film was nearing completion when Disney as a studio changed almost all of their important executives. It was the newly appointed Jeffery Katzenberg who made the cuts to the film. For all intents and purposes the movie was nearly complete when it was censored by what was up until that point an outsider.

MysteriousMystery 22:53, 26 July 2008 (CST)

Cutting out completed scenes in an animated motion picture is very rare due to the enormous amount of time spent working on such projects. Usually, if a scene is omitted, it is done during the pencil test or storyboard phase. Removing finished scenes out of "The Black Cauldron" was made by Disney executives over the objections of the films animators, which does constitute a form of censorship, as it weakened the creative staff's sense of autonomy.

— 00:15, 6 October 2006‎ by 71.156.44.131 [1]

"It was the last before corporate reorganization created Walt Disney Animation Studios and accepted[imposed?] computer-aided animation ..." See The Black Cauldron (novel)#Adaptations for more about the film, based on this article and wikipedia coverage of Disney. If it's misleading, please comment. A source regarding details of the corporate transition bearing on this film will be appreciated. --P64 (talk) 18:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I corrected some of your info on that article. Incidentally, there is computer-aided animation in this film, so that phrase was removed. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 06:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I see that the cited article at Slate is useful. Later I will improve its citation :-) --P64 (talk) 18:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

"Censorship" is both very strong (and therefore heavily biased) and, in this case, incorrect, as the actual reworking of the film involved more than just the edits to the negative. Studio-imposed edits to films before their release are not categorized as "censorship" on most other articles or write-ups inside or outside of Wikipedia on other films (most directors do not have "final cut" on their films). To do so here feeds into fan-fueled speculation that Disney executives ruined an "awesome, epic" movie that aren't necessarily supported by reliable sources. Coverage of the revision of Cauldron should be as dry and lacking of a point of view as possible to avoid sounding like a fansite. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 06:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, I removed the unsourced item about the film being edited twice to "avoid a PG-13 or R" rating. The film was edited more than twice while it was being salvaged, and nothing presented in the film was anywhere near "R"-level - as far s I have read, Katzenberg was hoping to avoid the "PG" the film actually ended up receiving anyway. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 06:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Broken Link

"Another scene cut featured a man being dissolved by mist. [1](http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2677/cuttbc.gif)" This link no longer seems to work. Is there any version of this animation somewhere else? Rapidflash 04:59, 3 July 2006

Hi, I haven't seen this movie but, I added that link because I thought it would help the article. The link is actually a link to an image located at a fan site hosted by GeoCities ::(http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2677/). The website mentioned that it was a scan of an animation cel that was on sale on eBay [2]. That was the only place I ever saw it. Meyow 20:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the link appears to be working now...ew! I'll add it back to the article. Meyow 21:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The link is dead. Unfortunately I have yet to find another image of the scene. Tippiegh 20:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Tinkerbell?

In the trivia section, the article claims that Tinkerbell makes a cameo appearance, but I did not see her in the Fairfolk segment at all. Can anyone confirm this? Zekintha 03:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Unless this image is doctored… Well, there she is. :P —OneofThem^(talk)_(contribs) 15:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That link no longer works, so here is a screenshot I just took, plus one with Tinkerbell circled. I believe that's the only shot where she can be seen clearly. Vpw (talk) 07:31, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

computer game adaptation of the film

probably worth mentioning this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Cauldron_%28video_game%29) somewhere Pseudo Intellectual (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The Black Cauldron theatrical release history

Aside from the original release date, are there any sources to verify the dates? Especially the one that is supposed to occur this coming August. Also this information is in direct contradiction of the information presented at the beginning of the film legacy section. --Polar33 (talk) 16:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Right, from my understanding these MUST be international release dates since the film was only released theatrically once in the US (outside of a single day appearance in the year 1999, in Times Square leading up to Fantasia 2000). There WAS a re-release in 1990 or 1991 in the UK as Taran and the Magic Cauldron, but I've never been able to accurately confirm the date. I think this list should be removed until further citations are found. --MysteriousMystery (talk) 16:52,2 July 2008 (CST)

Dog or pig?

The article mentions that "Adult Copper", described as a hound, is kidnapped. But in the Internet Movie database, a pig is mentioned: "Hen Wen, a magical oracular pig, is kidnapped by an evil lord known as the Horned King." I also remember a pig, not a dog, but much time has passed since. maybe somebody could doublecheck this? Best Regards, Hansi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.253.211.143 (talk) 11:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Special Edition in 2008?

The article lists voice actors for a "Special Edition in 2008," but there are no sources listed and no additional information given on this release. In addition, neither the IMDb nor Amazon.com list any such edition, and the IMDb pages for the voice actors listed do not mention "The Black Cauldron" in any form (either original or special edition). Can we get some sourcing on this? Grammar Cop (talk) 21:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

ultimatedisney.com has announced a new DVD release in June 2010. --67.172.34.59 (talk) 22:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Another banned scene

I saw the Black Cauldron in a theater when it was first released in the 1980s. I remember a scene where the witches turn Taran into a frog. He tries to escape as the witches try to catch him. He jumps down the cleavage of the fat witch, and she struggles to get him out. I remember this scene well, because it was so shocking for a Disney film. Parents must have complained, because the scene did not appear in the first TV viewing (on the Disney Channel), VHS, nor DVD. I don't see it on Youtube. Mabey it only exists in Disney archives.75.83.48.125 (talk) 22:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to mention it in the article, if you can find a reliable source that discusses it. Otherwise you're looking at original research which isn't appropriate for inclusion. Doniago (talk) 19:23, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

It's Fflewddur Fflam (not Taran) that gets stuck in the witch's cleavage while in frog form. The scene does appear in my copy of the film, which I believe is from the 2000 DVD release. Vpw (talk) 07:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Deleted scene of Eilonwy's ripped dress?

There is a mention in the article that "Princess Eilonwy partially nude as fabric was ripped off of her dress as she is hanging by her hands." While this is perhaps the most intriguing of the legendary deleted scenes, no source is cited for it. Please add source reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.69.130 (talk) 01:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

New Release Date

According to UltimateDisney.com, the new 25th Anniversary Edition of The Black Cauldron will be released on September 14, 2010 as a single-disc DVD and no Blu-Ray. Included are a few bonus features and a deleted scene. Koolz03 (talk) 19:18, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

A couple days ago ‎User:173.58.58.90 revised that date back to May 17, 2005 (which would be 20th anniversary) but did not revise "25th". 2000, 2005, and 2010 seem plausible to me for two or three DVD (15th, 20th, 25th).

FYRef: 173.58.58.90 contributions, a 4-day old user without Talk. --P64 (talk) 00:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

UnDone by User:Doniago[3] --P64 (talk) 22:15, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from 65.31.173.103, 24 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} I believe that the two movies, "Black Cauldron" and "Return To Oz" were premired at Radio City Music Hall the summer of 1985. There was a live show that was performed for approxamately40 minutes prior to the showing of one of the films. This can be verified by Radio City and the Fact that I worked there.(65.31.173.103 (talk) 04:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC))

Can you verify this? Doniago (talk) 04:59, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Until we have a source for this, there is not a need to change the article. Please let us know when you have a good source, and we will make the change.

 Not done ^Avicenna_sis @ 05:20, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

The Radio City opening for Cauldron is mentioned in this New York Times review. I'll add it in the article soon enough. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 08:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Obscurity

Why is this film so obscure compared to most Disney theatrical animated feature films?? Does it have anything to do with having too much evil?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:05, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Technically, this is almost a forum-like post, but the question could also lead to some research that could be incorporated into the article. Personally, I can think of several more obscure works ... Make Mine Music, Fun and Fancy Free and Melody Time, among others. And an argument could be made for how dark it is, much in the same vein as The Hunchback of Notre Dame. So perhaps we could track down some old reviews of the film to see what they thought (for example, if they said "this is very dark for a Disney film"). That said, it's easier to say it just doesn't have the following or the longevity of the more well-known features (anything with a princess, The Lion King, etc.). --McDoobAU93 17:38, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I think this has to do with the fact that it was taken out of circulation from 1985 to 1998, essentially double the length of most Disney movies reissue rotation. It was one of the last of the Walt Disney Animation Studios films to receive a home video release and was not re-issued in theatres. For a long time this film and Song of the South were thought to have been permanently banished to the Disney vault until in 1997 it showed up on VHS in Europe, and in 1998 wound up being released in North America and Japan again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.46.168.51 (talk) 19:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Quoting Lloyd Alexander

In the "Chronicle of Prydain," article there is even longer quote by the author about the film "The Black Cauldron," which you might want to use. Actually what wrote down for Lyodd Alexander write now is incorrect since it be considered putting words into his mouth that he didn't use. You need to copy his quote down word for word in order for it to be deemed correct. Here's an example of what you are doing- The Quote: "I Like to Eat Pie," said Joe."But it's not my favorite. I prefer cake because of the frosting." What's used: In an interview Joe said he prefers Cake and did not think Pie was near good due to the frosting. However he does admit pie is somewhat good.

Now these two sentences are simillar but it would probably be more correct to just use the first one so that it doesn't seem were putting words in the persons mouth. -James Pandora Adams —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.168.148 (talk) 03:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Here is the complete exchange from the cited Scholastic interview.[4]

What do you think about the Disney movie version of The Black Cauldron? Will any of your other books be made into movies?

First, I have to say, there is no resemblance between the movie and the book. Having said that, the movie in itself, purely as a movie, I found to be very enjoyable. I had fun watching it. What I would hope is that anyone who sees the movie would certainly enjoy it, but I'd also hope that they'd actually read the book. The book is quite different. It's a very powerful, very moving story, and I think people would find a lot more depth in the book. There is a very good possibility of other movies. Disney, again, is interested in an animated movie of Time Cat. This could happen in the next several years. Time Cat should be a lot of fun as an animated movie - I just hope I'm around to see it.

end quotation

Now I will revise the article to quote Alexander at length. --P64 (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Video game significance

• "This use of multiple endings predated the more famous use in Lucasfilm's game Maniac Mansion by a year."

This needs some context beyond "predated the more famous". Is the Lucasfilm game widely and wrongly considered to be an important pioneer in this respect? Regardless whether linked articles explain this, it should be briefly stated here. Were there other games, now commonly overlooked, which predated both of the Lucasfilm game and this one?

• "In order to make the game more accessible to children, Sierra used an innovative idea that would not reappear in the genre for the next 10 years:"

Does this make the game historically significant, perhaps in a light sense? For example, does it refer to all games played at computer stations? A citation will be welcome and may be necessary on this point.

• text parser, function keys, point-and-click --all of these link to general articles. Much better, they would link to sections in some game articles like player character, or to entire articles (lists? categories?) concerning games of one type or another type. One of those targets might even cover or indicate the "historical" significance (just above).

Depending on the truth of these matters (where i have no clue) and how well they can be explained here, some other articles should link to this section. On the other hand, if it's too important and this is done too well ;-) this becomes its own article. --P64 (talk) 19:27, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

--P64 (talk) 19:27, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Animation technique

According to the print Encyclopedia of Fantasy, methods used by Ralph Bakshi in The Lord of the Rings (1978 film) were used in Disney, The Black Cauldron.

According to our article on the film, Bakshi used new techniques of animation --not entirely or only rotoscoping per se, iiuc, but it is not likely that I do understand much correctly. Someone with a little expertise (or a reliable source!), who knows both films too, may be able to help this article a lot.

See also my previous comment about what may be historically significant in the video game industry. --P64 (talk) 23:39, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Budget

The link provided for the budget says only that it cost "over $25 million" to make, whereas twice in this article it cites $44 million. Where does that figure come from? Also, the intended meaning of "unadjusted expansive" when this figure is referred to under Release is unclear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macleod199 (talk • contribs) 18:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Initial video release?

There are rumors floating about on the Internet that Disney intended to release Cauldron on VHS sometime around 1989 or 1990, and a video master was created for that purpose, but once The Little Mermaid was released, the studio withdrew those plans. Is there any legitimate evidence to confirm this, or is this just a rumor? Freshh! (talk) 17:43, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Walt Disney Feature Animation

Walt Disney Animation did not change its name to Walt Disney Feature Animation till 1986. You can replace Walt Disney Feature Animation with Walt Disney Pictures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.21.56.40 (talk) 05:28, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

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Orphaned references in The Black Cauldron (film)

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Reference named "wakingsleepingbeauty":

• From The Little Mermaid (1989 film): Hahn, Don (2009). Waking Sleeping Beauty (Documentary film). Burbank, California: Stone Circle Pictures/Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures.
• From The Rescuers Down Under: Hahn, Don (2009). Waking Sleeping Beauty (Documentary film). Burbank, California: Stone Circle Pictures/Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures.

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The Black Cauldron and the Disney Gummi Bears

Hello, when I look it up on the Internet it seems that I am not the only one who notices some similarities between the characters of this movie and those in the TV show Gummi Bears. But there does not seem an "official" confirmation out there, or a review that explains the relationship. - And maybe this is just a similarity like between Brother Tuck and Balu the Bear, or Mowgli and Christopher Robin (they copied some animated movements). Does anybody know more about this relationship? Kind regards, Ziko (talk) 15:11, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Unreleased Abril Vídeo VHS

O Caldeirão Mágico is the Brazilian Portuguese version of The Black Cauldron. The film is scheduled to release in Brazil in 1998 by Abril Vídeo, but unfortunately the release was canceled for unknown reasons. Althrough the brazilian distribution was replaced by Buena Vista Home Entertainment, it was skipped to 1999 or 2000.

Brazilian Home media

VHS

• November 1998 (Abril Vídeo) (cancelled / scrapped)
• December 1999 or January 2000 (Buena Vista Home Entertainment)
• 2003 (Walt Disney Home Entertainment)

DVD

• 2003 (Walt Disney Home Entertainment)

Streaming

• 2011 (Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment)
• 2020 (Disney+) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.82.183.13 (talk) 15:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

link w/ page ""The Black Cauldron" : What Went Wrong" by Jim Hill

The link w/ the article title ""The Black Cauldron" : What Went Wrong" by Jim Hill is broken. Is there anything we can do about it?

Evope (talk) 20:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Did you try Wayback Machine or other options in that regard? DonIago (talk) 02:19, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Page Vandalised

The page has clearly been vandalized, particularly in the plot section. Winnie the Pooh, Bugs Bunny, Scooby Doo and a plethora of other animated characters mentioned are not used in the film. 24.68.163.191 (talk) 04:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

It's been fixed. As the vandalism had just occurred, seems like something you could have undone yourself, but it's been taken care of. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 06:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)