User talk:Beshogur/Archive 8

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Unexplained reversion

Can you please explain why you reverted my recent edits on articles about old Ottoman figures? If the problem is a lack of sources to my claims, please note that even if they are not true, there aren't any sources cited to the contrary (that imply that these figures were Sunni) so even if they were, with no sources to back it up, the articles do not have a reason to display this. Philosophy2 (talk) 14:26, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

What's your source that they were not Sunni until 1453? What were they then? Ottomans were a Sunni dynasty as many sources say. Beshogur (talk) 14:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I currently do not have a source to back up my claim, however, as I have said, there are also no cited sources to back up the claim that they were Sunni, so until sources for either can be found, it is better for the articles to just display "Islam". To answer your second question, most historians have said the following: In the incredibly early period of those tribes, they likely practiced something similar to Shamanism, although by the time of Suleyman Shah and Ertugrul, the tribes had mostly converted to Islam and mostly lived an Islamic lifestyle, but with a few customs from Shamanism. However, the Islam that they practiced was closer to Alevi tradition than Sunni. Some people say that the Ottomans became Sunni when Mehmed the Conqueror converted his empire after seeing the scientific success of the Sunnis in the south, while others claim that they transitioned to Sunnism slightly later, during the reign of Bayezid II. Whatever the answer may be, what is for sure is that the sources on this topic are very limited and hard to find, so the articles really shouldn't claim anything. Philosophy2 (talk) 14:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

That souns nonsense to me. TDV IA[1]: mentions Faqihs, as people who knew Islamic law, Sunni creed and Islamic institutions, provided guidance to the ghazi leader and served as imams in lower cities and villages. Many foundations, village and farm cadastral registers, which were given to ahis and jurists by the first Ottoman chiefs Osman and Orhan, have reached today with their records. Why should he use Sunni clerics? Beshogur (talk) 16:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Philosophy2 is correct, to a point. We don't have enough contemporary sources about the first Ottoman rulers to say anything confidently about their religious doctrine. It wasn't until the 1500s that the identification of the Ottoman Sultans with "orthodox" or "mainstream" Sunni Islam (and the Hanafi school in particular) intensified. This was of course mirrored in the Persian Safavid Shahs simultaneously forcing their subjects to identify/convert to Shi'i Islam (Twelver, Ja'afari) to solidify their religio-political identity. But in the 1300s and early 1400s the picture in Anatolia is much less clear. What we do know, is that those writers/poets who were patronized by the Ottoman Court during this time, wrote mostly Persian and Arabic, Turkic less so, and most from a Sufi perspective. Surviving records are scarce, but we know the most about one Burhan al-Din Ahmad (aka Kadi Burhan al-Din: 1345 – c. 1398) who lived in a time and place (bey of Sivas, Eretna) caught in between the Seljuks, Il-Khanate, Karaminids, Timurids, Ak Koyunlu and the Osman "Sultan of Rum" Bayediz I, whom Burhan actually defeated in battle in 1391) thanks to a Persian-language biography of him by Aziz Astarabadi, completed shortly before Burhan's death. In two Arabic-language prose works on religion, Burhan describes his faith and those of his subjects as a combination of the kind of Sufism that was predominant in the area at the time, mixed with ideas taken from from Ismaili and Twelever Shi'i literature. Burhan ignored the Hadith almost entirely, and was interested in creating a fusion Sunnism-Shi'ism through Sufism. It is known that Burhan mixed in the same circles as another, much more famous Astarabadi, Fazlallah Astarabadi aka Naimi, one of whose pupils was the equally influential Ali Imadud-Din Nasimi, aka Nesimi, the originator of truly Turkic-language "classical" poetry. They were both Hurufiyyah Sufis, mystics, who allegedly came very close to close to converting Sultan Mehmed II himself.

"In the complex religious and intellectual climate of late medieval Anatolia, which witnessed in places the collapse of the boundaries between Shiism, Sufism and some forms of Sunnism, we must leave open the possibility of a degree of common ground between adherents of Faḍlallāh Astarābādī and others interested in lettrism." (A.C.S. Peacock, (2016). Metaphysics and Rulership in Late Fourteenth-Century Central Anatolia: Qadi Burhān al-Dīn of Sivas and his Iksīr al-Saʿādāt. (p. 101-131))

In addition, from Brack (2016): "In his seminal article on Aşıkpaşazade’s chronicle, İnalcık argued that one of the main goals of the work was to demonstrate the crucial role that the shaykhs of the Wafāʾī Sufi order played in the Ottoman dynasty’s rise to power. In addition to Shaykh Ede Bali, the order registered among its members key figures such as Baba Ilyās, Aşıkpaşazade’s forefather and instigator of the mid-thirteenth-century revolt, and Baba Ilyās’ disciple Geyikli Baba.11 İnalcık further noted that the close ties between the Ottoman dynasty and the Wafāʾīyya were one of the main reasons for the dynasty’s patronage of Aşıkpaşazade and his son-in-law Seyyid Vilayet...

...I argue that the significance of Sayyid Abū al-Wafāʾ and his Menāḳıb for Seyyid Vilayet lay not in Abū al-Wafāʾ’s alleged role as a Sufi order founder, but rather in his capacity as a celebrated Sufi descendant of the prophet Muḥammad to render the prestige, authority, and privileges associated with the Prophet’s progeny accessible to Seyyid Vilayet.... Through subtle narrative ploys and a measure of genealogical creativity, the translator of the Abū al-Wafāʾ’s Menāḳıb reduced the genealogical distance between the fifteenth-century Seyyid Vilayet and the eleventh-century Abū al-Wafāʾ on the one hand, and on the other, introduced Seyyid Vilayet’s “new” eleventh-century saintly kin into a core moment in the Ottoman dynastic narrative. The Menāḳıb, thus, consolidated Seyyid Vilayet’s reciprocal relationship of patronage with the House of Osman.9The Ottoman reception of Abū al-Wafāʾ’s saintly life further reveals, therefore, the increased entanglement of kinship-based and Sufi-based claims of authority in the fifteenth century [Anatolia]..." (Jonathan Brack, (2016). Was Ede Bali a Wafāʾī Shaykh? Sufis, Sayyids and Genealogical Creativity in the Early Ottoman World. (p. 333-7))

Sources are chapters from: Peacock, A. Nur Yıldız, S (eds). (2016). Islamic Literature and Intellectual Life in Fourteenth-and Fifteenth-Century Anatolia, ISTANBULER TEXTE UND STUDIEN HERAUSGEGEBEN VOM ORIENT-INSTITUT ISTANBUL, BAND 34.

- EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 02:38, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

A word on the diversity of "popular" Islam, as it was practiced in Anatolia in early - and immediately prior to - Ottoman times...

From Kiel, Machiel. Ch. 5, p. 187, writing in: Fleet, K (ed). (2009). The Cambridge History of Turkey, Volume 1, Byzantium to Turkey, 1071-1453, Cambridge University Press.

"As had been the case... the space for praying had been enlarged at the expense of the function of accommodating travelling dervishes and scholars and other distinguished guests. The change occurred in the third decade of the sixteenth century [emphasis mine], when Sunni orthodoxy became dominant and early Ottoman institutions and brotherhoods like the ahi, who made offering hospitality to travellers their main task, slowly disappeared or fused with other organisations."

From Ahmet Yaşar Ocak. Ch 9. "Social, cultural and intellectual life" (pp. 353-422), writing in: Fleet, K (ed). (2009). The Cambridge History of Turkey, Volume 1, Byzantium to Turkey, 1071-1453, Cambridge University Press.

Although the Anatolian Seljuk rulers had a Sunni Islamic culture and education and knew Arabic and Persian well enough to write poetry in these languages, neither they nor the population were particularly strict in religious interpretation, being neither conservative nor fanatical. It is for this reason that contemporary Arab opinion viewed the Turkish understanding of Islam with suspicion and the Turks’ ‘Muslim-ness’ was questioned...

During the period of their establishment, the Ottomans took over and continued this tolerant Sunni policy. As is well known, the first Ottoman rulers adopted a tolerant stance towards the Kalenderis, Hayders, Vefais, the Bektashis and other Sufi circles which did not fitwell with Sunnism, granting them many vakıfs and benefiting greatly from their support, particularly in the conquest of the Balkans. This tolerant policy of the early rulers continued until the beginnings of Safavi Shi’i propaganda in Anatolia at the beginning of the sixteenth century.

However insufficient the sources may be, it is still possible to see traces of Shi’i-Ismaili influences amongthe semi-nomadic Turks, regardless of the Sunni policy of the political administrations which officially protected it, influences which were not considered by researchers until the recent past. We must remember that the Turkoman who were present in northern Syria and southeast Anatolia from the eleventh century had lived for a considerable period side by side with the Ismailis and had even intermixed with them.

Although we can presume that the Ilkhan ruler Öljaitü's(1304–16) acceptance of the ˙Imamiye mezhep resulted in a environment favourable to the spreading of Shi’ism in Anatolia, the subsequent rapid shift of the Ilkhans to Sunnism must have hindered any such development. Further, the Anatolian Turkoman rulers, who were, as we have said, dominated by strong messianic beliefs, did not enter this mezhep despite being in close contact with Shi’i-Ismaili influences, but rather preserved their old pre-Islamic beliefs under an Islamic veneer. With the development of Bektashi and Kızılbashi movements in the fifteenth century among those Turkoman and Kurdish tribes in Anatolia who are known to have been the object of probably strong Ismaili influence in the thirteenth century and of Hurufi propaganda which was highly influenced by Ismailism in the fourteenth century, the Anatolian branch of heterodoxy appeared.

The tarikats of these countries, which were able to appeal to both rural and urban circles, such as the Hayderiye, Kalenderiye and Vefaiye,the majority of which remained outside Sunnism, also surged into Anatolia...

There is no doubt that among the most important social and cultural transformations in the history of Islam was the spreading of organised Sufi tarikats and their influence on the popular understanding of Islam. The most obvious sign of this was the extensive spread of saintly cults among the people almost everywhere throughout the Islamic world, and their dominance over literate, ‘Quranic’ Islam. The existence of one or several saints’ turbes in almost every town and village in most Islamic countries is very striking. Islam in Turkey was no exception to this historical reality and such turbes are still to be found in all settlements of Anatolia today. The turbes of famous holy men who had died in towns and villages where their turbes were located became identified with the place itself.

Combining all aspects of the Islam of the population which had been in the Anatolian towns and villages for centuries, exhibiting Islamic characteristics and incorporating the remains of pre-Islamic beliefs and cults, the turbes can be seen as a centre of religious life. The face of popular Islam was different from that of the mosque. That to be found in the mosques was closer to the Islam of the book (the Quran); that in the turbes was closer to the pre-Islamic beliefs and practices or even those outside Islam. For this reason, the ulema in Anatolia, as in other Muslim countries, initiated a ‘cold war’ from Seljuk times to the present against this popular Islam which they called superstition and heresy (hurafe and bid‘at). But this was a war the ulema never won.

- EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 06:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Gosh. That 13 notifications. WP:TEXTWALL. I know that Ottomans enforced Sunnism in the 16th century, but there's no indication they were non Sunnis prior to that. Beshogur (talk) 12:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

No, except for all that evidence and scholarship I just pointed you towards. None at all. EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 13:01, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@EnlightenmentNow1792: "popular" Islam is a vague term. when Sunni orthodoxy became dominant doesn't mean that Sunnism suddenly popped up, it means orthodox Sunnism became dominant. Your whole text makes no mention about the sect of the dynasty. Beshogur (talk) 13:18, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I just included that because I thought you might be curious. At any rate, please read my excerpt from Brack, (2016). As the The Cambridge History of Turkey, Volume 1, will tell you, we know absolutely nothing about the religious beliefs of Osman Gazi and Orhan Gazi. So most historians think it is reasonable to assume - in such a mixed place in terms of ethnicity, religion, etc - at a period when confessionalism and sectarianism had not yet developed, that the likes of Osman and Orhan probably possessed the same or similar religious beliefs to those around them: a mixture of the ostensibly Sunni Islam they inherited from the Turko-Persian Seljuks, mixed with their own pre-Islamic traditions, and influenced by the orthodox Sufi, heterodox Sufi, often Shi'i-inclined darvishes, scholars, and poets of that particular historical context.

I recommend you take a look at: Ayfer Karakaya-Stump. The Kizilbash-Alevis in Ottoman Anatolia: Sufism, Politics and Community. (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 2019), and https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/islam-literature-and-society-in-mongol-anatolia/sufism-and-political-power/4AC56551226AC4AAB1C527B99C0FD844. - EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 15:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

see TDV IA about Osman and Orhan using Sunni preachers advice for the conquests. This explains a lot. Beshogur (talk) 15:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh dear. Sorry, that's not history, that's the realm of myth and legend you're dealing with there. EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 16:10, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

RM request

Hello I've done your RM request here. It would be nice if you could update the article to reflect the RM. Cheers --Megan B.... ^{It’s all coming to me} till the end of time 12:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Synoman Barris: thanks! I'll check later. Beshogur (talk) 12:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Motions/Comments concerning AA2

Since you are experiencing the same AA2 disruption, that I and many others have experienced, might I suggest posting your opinion on AA2(Armenia-Azerbaijan) area.

I had initially proposed a 500-edits/6-months editing restriction for new users in this particular area. This has been downgraded to 500 edits and 30 days editing and supported by other editors, like HistoryofIran. --Kansas Bear (talk) 13:49, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Feel free...

...to reinstate anything you think was an improvement, if you're willing to take ownership of it. I didn't review the edits, just reverted on the basis of discouraging socking. I'm not any kind of barrier to actual improvements provided someone in good standing vets them. Best Girth Summit _(blether) 20:06, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: I know, I just reverted to the common spelling the sock did, don't take it personally. Beshogur (talk) 21:26, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I definitely don't! Just letting you know that you'll have no pushback from me if there's anything else you see that you want to reinstate - so long as you stand behind it, that's fine. Girth Summit _(blether) 21:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Old Tatar

Hello, please, indicate the source where the Old Tatar language in English will be — Old Bashkir.--Ilnur efende (talk) 13:13, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Crimean Tatars in Romania

Tatars in Romania also called Crimean Tatars and sometimes they called him self Crimean. TayfunEt. (talk) 16:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@TayfunEt.: I saw your flag edit, but the flag doesn't appear somewhere. It seems like you did the flag based on the logo. That's not allowed. Also it is mentioned that Dobrujan Tatars are Crimean Tatars. Beshogur (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Beshogur: I also left a web site which shows the flag and the Taraq tamga, the flag is from the organisation UDTTMR ( Democratic Union of Tatar Turks Muslims of Romania); http://uniuneatatara.ro/krm/. And I am one of Dobrudja Tatars, the flag is not made by me, the flag is made by UDTTMR is also the Flag of the organisation. Yes they mentioned, but not the Name of the Tatars, we in Dobrudja are not only Tatars also Crimean.

@TayfunEt.: can you show the exact link of the flag? I can't find. Beshogur (talk) 17:16, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Is also possible to buy it in Amazon https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MQNHF3H/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_navT_g_VM9P23RFKXVXWJW53SFC but they have pressure problem (what I think).

That's not a source. I need the one they use, if there's not. Sorry I can't place that again. Beshogur (talk) 17:28, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Beshogur: http://uniuneatatara.ro/krm/ in the web site you can see the news and one of the shows flag , is the same but the logo of UDTTMR is in it and how I say is actually the flag of the organisation, but they put the Mosque top in Taraq tamga. And they also have YouTube channel UDTTMR, there needs to be. And you can see the Logo or Symbol of the organisation, is similar to the flag.

@Beshogur: I don't know, you will choose, to put the flag back, but the Name Crimean Tatars of Romania, is my please for you.

"Crimean Tatars of Romania" is wrong term because it doesn't appear in any source. The article also mentions that most of them are Crimean Tatars. Also can you link the youtube video here>? Beshogur (talk) 17:54, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Is not wrong term, they are Crimean and they are many sources that says most of them are Crimean Tatars and some the Nogais also says that they are Crimean. And here is for you a source, from a nogai: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RzQF36XMIxw&feature=youtu.be For the video with the flag, I will search for it.

ANI notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Leaving this here because you were mentioned by username, not because you are the subject of the ANI complaint. — Mhawk10 (talk) 01:04, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring

Please cite policy before you unilaterally alter a long standing set of usages in a text.Nishidani (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Kazakh Khanate: Vandalism

Hi @Beshogur:. Was wandering why my vandalism removal was reverted in the entry statement of Kazakh Khanate.
This statement itself if unscientific - "and raided Russia territories throughout the 18th century". Russian Empire was an Empire and was expanding, (i.e. conquering) lands of Kipchak Turks. Not the other way around.
Also having a slave trade was not something unique to Kazakh Khanate so it should be explicitly stressed in the opening statement on the page. I'll revert the changes. Please let me know if you wanna discuss it further.
Full disclosure: I'm of Kazakh descent and have interests in Turkic history and culture. TarlanT (talk) 14:00 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: List of Turkish flags (February 19)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Rusalkii was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:List of Turkish flags and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:List of Turkish flags, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{Db-g7}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Rusalkii (talk) 23:17, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Beshogur! Having an article declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Rusalkii (talk) 23:17, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

@Rusalkii: thanks but I'm not a new editor, I edited the article that was in terrible condition. I agree that there are not much sources, however there are various "List of ... flags" articles that barely have 1 2 sources. I think this deserves to be listed; if the others were not moved to drafts. I'll be updating that often. Beshogur (talk) 15:32, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, the teahouse invite is an automated message that gets sent along with the decline if the script sees that you don't have an invite yet. I wonder if we can edit the script to not send it to users past a certain edit count. Glad to see that the article's been improved and accepted! Rusalkii (talk) 00:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

It's fine. Thanks. Beshogur (talk) 10:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: List of Turkish flags has been accepted

List of Turkish flags, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as List-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

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Thanks again, and happy editing!

~Styyx^{Talk? ^-^} 18:14, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire

Hej, do you feel any difference between EN and russian? Džambuiluk is Dzhambuyluk, not russian Džambuilukskaya Horde. Do you know russian? I do. And don`t want to see in EN_wiki dumbest translation from rusissian to russian. Horde must be in english dear Sir. -- Makenzis 14:28, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Those seems proper transliterations and commonly used in English. Yes I know a bit Russian. And don`t want to see in EN_wiki dumbest translation form rusissian to russian. this is not my problem since this is not Russian wiki. Bye. Beshogur (talk) 14:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Bye-bye, but again priviet. I see, that you a little bit know and a little bit must to understand, that DžambuilskAYA Horde can`t exsist in EN_wiki. Do simply: Džmabuiluck, Džabluyluk, or Horde of Džambuiluk, but you defending and discovering Džambuylutskaya? What`s that? Nonsense! Someone very lazy to think, so writing simple plan translations. -- Makenzis 14:28, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Makenzis: Hello I don't get you. What's the problem? You say that those transliterations are wrong? Beshogur (talk) 15:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Makenzis: Oh, my mistake. I thought you did the opposite edit. Thanks for correcting it, but I removed it considering there is no source. Beshogur (talk) 15:15, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Few years ago i created Budžaka and some other xanligi (Kasim, Nogay, Karabakh), so intrested in that. I wanted to create some others. Just looking of my homework, without sourses, of course. And saw russian -aya; so i wanted to say about that to you. -- Makenzis 15:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Help for Wikipedia Nogai

Hello, can you please help, to make the Wikipedia logo in Nogai. I don't understand about this things...

Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia → Википедия Ашык Энциклопедия

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Nogai TayfunEt. (talk) 21:07, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@TayfunEt.: Thanks for the idea but I don't understand either. Beshogur (talk) 21:12, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Can you do me a favour and contact with onther users which knows about this theme and if they can do this, please...

Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia → Википедия Ашык Энциклопедия

TayfunEt. (talk) 22:21, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have contacts. Beshogur (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 25

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Feodosia, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Crimean Tatar.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:06, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
	Thank you for trying to stop racism and vandalism. Göktuğ Canik (talk) 03:27, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

We all are waiting for you confirmation Beshogur  :)

Talk:Turkic_peoples#New_content_wrongly_removed --Gengiev (talk) 16:42, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

What confirmation? Additions are ok, but please don't make wrongly assumptions on Uyghurs. Beshogur (talk) 17:13, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Other editors think that my new additions are/were disputed or whatsoever. Would be nice you could leave a short message on the Turkic peoples talk page. I want to make right assumptions on Uyghur. I was only confused by the Chinese-style clothing of the Bezeklik images. I dropped this thing to nirvana already, because Bezeklik images represent the easternmost Turkic fringe (the Yugurs). The only thing I want to clarify about Uyghurs is the fact that modern Uyghurs are not the same as Old Uyghur. For this reason I want to make a link to the Old Uyghur period (= Uyghur Khaganate). You will easily find the answer to your concern by clicking on "Old Uyghur language". This is what it looks like when this part is finnished. I want to be sure. --Gengiev (talk) 17:39, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

It's looks ugly as hell when I would revert myself after I already reverted myself 1 hour ago. Would you revert me this time? --Gengiev (talk) 17:47, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Well Uyghurs are not solely descended from those, right, however they do make a part of their ethnogenese. See Uyghurs page for more. Beshogur (talk) 17:52, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes the Old Uyghurs do surely make a part of the modern Uyghur ethnogenese. For this reason Uyghur intellectuals have chosen to call their people "Uyghur" after the Tashkent-Conference in 1921. --Gengiev (talk) 18:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Help with DYK review?

Hi Beshogur, I have been reviewing a DYK about the Death of Ihsan Gürz, a Turkish national in the Netherlands. There are only a few sources in the English language available and I'd be glad to have a second opinion on the sourcing as most sources are in Dutch.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:06, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit summaries when reverting

Hi, Beshogur. Please provide edit summaries. A good edit summary is self-explanatory, and can help avoid tit-for-tat reversions, as at the Mehmet II article. Haploidavey (talk) 12:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

How is the word vagabond related to all these stuff? Beshogur (talk) 16:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Whom has an interest in associating any group of people with a derogatory term such as Vagabond? Its the pnes I mentioned. Remove it in the article if you don't have an interest. Otherwise what is the reason behind your insistence? 24.126.244.19 (talk) 21:22, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Support fixing English grammar: Hi, perhaps you can help fix the poorly written English in the Orhan Ghazi article. Thank you! 176.236.61.202 (talk) 02:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

July 2022

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Turkish people. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:55, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Wives of Abdulmejid I

A tag has been placed on Category:Wives of Abdulmejid I indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Welcome back

		Sunshine!
		Hello Beshogur! VisioncurveTimendi causa est nescire has given you a bit of sunshine to brighten your day! Sunshine promotes WikiLove and hopefully it has made your day better. Spread the sunshine by adding {{subst:User:Meaghan/Sunshine}} to someone else's talk page, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. In addition, you can spread the sunshine to anyone who visits your userpage and/or talk page by adding {{User:Meaghan/Sunshine icon}}. Happy editing! VisioncurveTimendi causa est nescire 07:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Aramıza tekrar hoşgeldiniz, arkadaşım! Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 07:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Was a little busy. Beshogur (talk) 07:53, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

By the way, have you by any chance seen my latest additions on Babur regarding his poetry? I created a whole new section on his poetry and would like to know what is your opinion with respect to it. Please, tell me what you think! Thank you! Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 09:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Glad to see you! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:23, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: thanks haha. Beshogur (talk) 10:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Welcome back Beshogur! BerkBerk⁶⁸ 02:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@BerkBerk68: Thanks. Hello. Beshogur (talk) 10:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello. by the way, since Timurids were at your scope of interests, you might be interested in recently written genealogy section of Timurid Empire, it would be nice if you have anything else to add so we could enrich the section. BerkBerk⁶⁸ 11:57, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

turks of romania

Which christian turks should that be in romania? formerly muslims who convert, or Gagauz people a turkish speaking christian folk? and which other religion as in this artilce the turks have in romania? In ottoman time muslim turks was settled in the dobruja and ada kaleh, and not karamanlides or gagauzes who are both turkish speaking and christians. So again, wich christian turks should that be in romania? As i understand, if you read here, there are gagauz in romania https://minorityrights.org/minorities/gagauz/ and in romanian language, https://www.zdg.md/blog/editoriale/gagauzii-nu-sunt-straini-romaniei/ Nalanidil (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Contributing to the Qutb Shahi dynasty

You are invited to contribute to the page on a largely forgotten dynasty of the Qutb Shahis, the ruling family of the Golconda sultanate, an early-modern polity in southern India. Thanks. Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 07:41, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Tarama Dergisi

Hi. I cannot find kamal (or kamâl) in Tarama Dergisi. I wanted to text you based on the information in this subtitle. Aybeg (talk) 12:49, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

[2] here you go if you wanted the primary source. Anyway I was citing a secondary source. Beshogur (talk) 14:07, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Libya's UNCLOS1982-NON-party status

Why did you delete my edit in the relevant page? I have supplied the reference for the letter of the Libya's Representative in UN UNCLOS page of Libya about the status of Libya on being not a party to UNCLOS1982.78.175.237.141 (talk) 16:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Provide a source. Beshogur (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Reverted Edit on Çerkes Ethem

Can I ask why you reverted my edit on this page? Why would the full name be used when "İnönü" was his surname? I'm following MOS:SURNAME. Some clarification would be nice. ― TaltosKieronTalk 15:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Can you check now? Removed all other except one. You removed once, that was the reason. Beshogur (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks brother ― TaltosKieronTalk 15:17, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

September 2022

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Azerbaijanis. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. — LechitaPL (talk) 16:47, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

From the edit history, it looks like you're trying to put that figure 4 time in one week period. Beshogur (talk) 17:30, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

AN/I Notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Edit war in article on the Azerbaijanis. Thank you. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:15, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Uyghurs

Hi. I want to say; Can you change back my edits in "Uyghurs". Please. I added profs,also i wrote about sub groups. I want to safe my nation with truth.

Thank you Turanhistory (talk) 14:15, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Nope. These are not scientific. Beshogur (talk) 14:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Independence referendum

Hi Beshogur, I'm a bit confused that an experienced editor like you reverted me without replying to the talk page discussion I started. My central point was that the claim that the picture shows the Donbass referendum is unsourced. Could you please answer to my comment at Talk:Independence referendum#Donbass ? Rsk6400 (talk) 17:57, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution.

Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!

The discussion is found at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Independence_referendum. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Turkey

I am going to decline a request at WP:RPP/I for full protection at Turkey due to the current edit war. That means I will have to block you for a significant period if you repeat anything that you should know will be reverted. It's good that you have started a discussion/RfC at article talk but you must wait for a clear consensus. Johnuniq (talk) 05:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Theres is no need. I will not further edit until consensus. Also you should check that I did not start changing it. The lede like this for some time. People are also unaware that they forgot to remove "Republic of Türkiye" from the infobox as well. Please look at it. Beshogur (talk) 08:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. However, I don't want to spend time looking at the moment. The point is that editing needs to stop until the discussion reaches a conclusion. Johnuniq (talk) 09:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Bir mesele

Esenlikler Beshoghur,

Wikipediada “Kurya Khan” diye bir kişi var propaganda ile yalanlar yayıyor mesela Hisar Firoz muharebesi 1526, sayilari random koymus, Timur icin Iki maglupbiyeti koydu ki Timur hayati boyunca kaybetmedi, Boyle uydurmalik editler yapiyor, kullandi kaynaklar da aynisi, Ayrica Istedim su Ip ban atman ki Wikipedia kendine gelir maalesef Safevi konusu falan da var ama idare eder. Gokturklerrr (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

First of all, in all the sources I have given, Timur's defeats are available and I do not have any regulation about the Safavids. You tell them to ban me and you have no reason. This is the place for free articles, no need for sentimentality. My articles have been approved by editors and here you are crying. Kurya Khan (talk) 15:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

There ain’t such things like crying the problem is by you you even tried to chance my pages, Second your sources ain’t even good, third you even made a propaganda giving random numbers. If your articles were approved mostly of your jalal Ud din pages were removed, also your edits about him. Goodbye Gokturklerrr (talk) 20:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

my sources consist of the most modern and reliable sources. Such as Beatrice Manz, Jean Paul Roux, Ahmet Şimşirgil.Also, you are trying to belittle my approved articles by mentioning my Jalal al-Din articles that have nothing to do with Timur articles.Keep your little propaganda and unproven insinuations to yourself. If you think you are right, I will wait for you in the discussion section of my articles. Kurya Khan (talk) 15:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

a subject

Göktürklerrr user, without proof, qualifies my posts as propaganda despite approval. I give everything with the most detailed sources and it is accepted. He projects his personal problems with me onto you. He can't respond to what I wrote on the talk page. I invite him to the talk page. Kurya Khan (talk) 15:26, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

First of all I looked at your sources about timur while none of your sources mentioned such things. Second my sources are correct i do not put a source while reading that source, for example u gave about siege of Qarshi begin 120 I looked 1 at your source you put number and it didn’t talked about timur, you should be not a propgandist. Gokturklerrr (talk) 20:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Old Anatolian Turkish āzāz

Hello, I've been informed that you have undone my change. It's ok, but still incorrect. Please notice that there is no āzāz in the source; instead of this we find the form āzāẕ (with underlined z), which is the author's transliteration for medieval Persian آزاذ (ISO: āzāḏ), which has derived in pre-modern period into آزاد (āzād). There is nothing like āzāz (آزاز) both in the source and the language. Jacek Jarmoszko (talk) 21:22, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jacek Jarmoszko: you may be right but the one I use doesnt have that underlined z. Where did you see that exactly? Beshogur (talk) 05:31, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

There is a digital copy of the book in open access, but it sucks because of it's bad quality:

https://www.academia.edu/33240587/Old_Anatolian_Turkish_Syntactic_Structure_Harvard_University_PhD_Thesis_1996_UMI_Thesis_Publishing_

However if you look carefully you'll see that in each case when the word occurs, there is a slight underlining under the second z (usually it looks like a blot in the bottom of the letter):

p. 74: eger fulān yarın işbu saraya girürse sen āzāẕ olġıl.

p. 78: eger girü müsülmān olup gelür ise gendü özi ödeye āzāẕ ola.

p. 85: bularuñ arasına oq bıraġalar, her kimüñ adına qur‘a çıkar [!] ise o āzāẕ ola.

p. 94: eger fulān yarın işbu saraya girmezse sen āzāẕ olġıl.

p. 114: bizüm ‘ulamā qavlinde hīç biri āzāẕ olmaz tā cümle bedel-i kitābet mevlāya degmeyince.

p. 127: qullarum āzāẕ olsuñ.

p. 162: işbu şaḫṣ iki qulından bir bellüsini āzāẕ eyledi.

pp. 168, 177: ne qul ki alam āzāẕ olsun?

p. 195: āzāẕlıq buyuranuñ olmaz buyrılmuşuñ olur.

The visual difference between z and ẕ can be easily seen on the pages 19 and 20, where the author explains the letters ذ and ز .

You can find the same transliteration of the same phonetical feature also in a couple of the other words of Persian origin, for example: bünyāẕ (بنیاذ) p. 144, ḫōşnūẕ (خوشنوذ) pp. 64, 74, ḫōẕ (خوذ) pp. 76, 79, ḫuẕāvendigār (خذاوندکار) pp. 82, 165, 170, nā-resīẕe (نارسیذه) p. 181, pāẕişāh (پاذشاه) pp. 48, 54, 86, 167, 194, qūbāẕ (قوباذ) p. 119, şāẕīliq (شاذی) p. 111, 205, ümīẕ (امیذ) p. 178, 215, yāḫōẕ (یاخوذ) p. 58, 59, 61, 67, 111, 177, yāẕ (یاذ) p. 162. Jacek Jarmoszko (talk) 17:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jacek Jarmoszko: Couldn't you simply change it to ẕ then? It's fine for me. Beshogur (talk) 17:27, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Azerbaijanis

Hello, I'm part Azeri and I would like to discuss our disagreements on the Azerbaijani article so as to avoid repeatedly reverting changes where we put our time and energy. Please let me know what in my last edit was problematic to you, so that we can find a solution. Thank you, Arad (talk) 15:12, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I assume the issue is whether Azeris are Turkic-people. To avoid a back and forth, we can put that Turkic-speaking (which I believe is already there) instead of reverting all of the changes. Aside from that, Iranian peoples are ethnically related peoples to Azerbaijanis (as far as I'm aware that's uncontested), and the 2022 genetic study that was added should be kept. We can consider merging all the genetic testing studies into one paragraph, since almost all of them confirm each other, but please don't indiscriminately revert. Thanks for understanding.

Revert

You removed my edit from Azerbaijani language. Yes it is not a real country, but it still uses it. That is what it says on Russian language, Armenian language, and others for unrecognised countries. ImprovetheArabicUnicode (talk) 19:17, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@ImprovetheArabicUnicode: micronation is a better terminology for that. Beshogur (talk) 06:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

It is under Azerbaijani military occupation, it is also recognised by Turkey, so it still counts. ImprovetheArabicUnicode (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

No it is not. Beshogur (talk) 05:22, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Iyi günler

Selam su kazak makalesine bir bakmanizi rica ediyorum. Biri tarafindan ikide bir değisiklik yapiliyor ve kazaklarin turkce konusan mongol olduğunu iddia ediyor. Geri aldim ama yine geldi onunla daha yetkili biri konuşmali ben yeniyim. Bengalbengal (talk) 10:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Sigh

I think this nonsense needs to be addressed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear: what do you mean? Beshogur (talk) 18:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

A certain editor changing the order of languages in the infoboxes(like what you reverted), and other silly nonsense. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Victoria Arakelova

On Talk:Azerbaijanis, you have complained on the possible unreliability of Victoria Arakelova. I have started a discussion on her at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Victoria_Arakelova. I believe I have solid grounds on her unreliability based on a discrepancy on her estimate and the told percentage of Azerbaijanis in Iran. It is your choice to respond, but I saw that you "[doubted] this will make any difference," so I would suggest you to take a look at my argument there. Thank you. Ayıntaplı (talk) 02:27, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Bulgars

I am adding content and providing reliable relevant information and sources. Undoing all is unviable way to prove and defend your point of view MiltenR (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Why did you remove the flag

Hello i dont wanna be trouble but i just wonder why did you remove the flag on the website and could i teach where are you from Akiyorm (talk) 21:29, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Yup, mate. Teach him! Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 03:56, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Why do you remove sourced edits

You biased ignorant stop disrupting other peoples edits. You are not one only one educated person. If you do not other languages stop deleting their edits. You are clearly Iranian propagandist or Turkish islamist sectant, neither you are cancer to world. Qara Jasaq (talk) 12:14, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Your source does not mention that as well. Beshogur (talk) 14:59, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

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Can you explain why you removed edits with citations to credible genetic studies of the Karachay? And ethnogenetic studies questioning the Kipchak origin theory of the Karachay people? Are you disputing that Karchays are not actually indigenous Northern Caucasian people? From the looks of your information, you seem heavily invested in promoting Pan-Turkic ideology and your reversion of the edits without explanation looks biased. You need to explain your reasoning or further action will be taken. Realblueberry (talk) 19:39, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@Realblueberry: you seem heavily invested in promoting Pan-Turkic ideology and your reversion of the edits without explanation looks biased. first refrain from wp:personal attacks. Secondly, your second source seems pseudoscientific, not a wp:rs. And Karachays are a Turkic people, perhaps stick on mainstream science rather searching for fringe theories. Beshogur (talk) 19:53, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Scientific journal articles from the Journal of Molecular Science and the Journal of Archaeological Science are not pseudoscientific. Karachays are Turkic-speaking. Ethnically, they identify as Caucasian. And they are indigenous to the North Caucuses. This is not a fringe theory. Realblueberry (talk) 20:07, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@Realblueberry: they identify as Caucasian and you represent them? from your edit The Karachays are among the most ancient group of Caucasian peoples with genetic studies showing their roots dating to the pre-historic Koban culture, maybe the other part is possible, but I can't reach the journal. Can you prove where the whole sentence appears in the source? Beshogur (talk) 20:10, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you actually trying to dispute an ethnic group that has lived in the Caucuses for centuries is not actually Caucasian? You cannot claim Karachays as fully Turkic with nothing else going on in their lineage. This is reductive. They are Turkic-speaking. What is indisputable is that they have been in the region for centuries.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X20301486 "Our data suggest a relative genetic continuity of ancient Caucasus cultures. G2a Y-haplogroup which is frequent in modern Ossetians, Balkars, and Karachays was found in Koban culture; Koban culture might have the genetic footprints of Scythian invasions."

"The structure of the ethnic composition of modern KChR in the North Caucasus has been formed over the past three thousand years. Representatives of more than 50 ethnic groups live on the territory of KChR but the major ones are 5 ethnic groups: Karachays, Russians, Circassians, Abazins and Nogais. Ethnogenesis of indigenous peoples of KChR is complex and not clearly defined. Karachays and Nogais belong to the Turkic-speaking peoples originated from different roots: Karachays are descendants of Alans-Koban ethnic group mixed with Turkic-speaking Bulgarians; Nogais originated from Turkic tribes Pecheneg and Kipchak. Circassians and Abazins belong to the group of Abkhazian-Adyghe peoples [12]." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6981994/ Realblueberry (talk) 20:29, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Your edit is not what the source says. But you're welcome to improve the article accordingly. Beshogur (talk) 20:36, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you own this page? You do not. Stop removing edits that are properly cited or you will be reported. Realblueberry (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@Realblueberry: if you don't edit correctly accordingly to the source you gave or use pseudoscientific sources (Russian one) or claim that Karachays are Caucasian people, not Turkic, you will be reverted. Beshogur (talk) 04:16, 2 December 2022 (UTC) @Realblueberry: this source is not even genetic testing regarding origin but Epidemiology of Hereditary Diseases in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic. This sentence Karachays are descendants of Alans-Koban ethnic group mixed with Turkic-speaking Bulgarians; can not be used, since it's citing another source, and is not based on genetics. Stop manipulating them. Beshogur (talk) 05:22, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

It is a genetic epidemiological study. Meaning, they are taking genetics into account. "The study presents the results of a genetic epidemiological study of hereditary diseases (HDs) in the population of the Karachay-Cherkess Republic (KChR)." Why do you think this source from The International Journal of Molecular Sciences, a peer-reviewed journal, is pseudoscientific? Do you know what peer-reviewed means? Again, I will ask you, are you trying to argue that Karachays, who have lived in the Northern Caucasus for centuries, are only classifiable as Turkic, and not Caucasian? You are the one who is manipulating information. Realblueberry (talk) 06:08, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

And it you are referring to the Russian Journal of Genetics source, they are peer-reviewed as well. Realblueberry (talk) 06:49, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

No the source "P. B. Ivanov, GENERAL INFORMATION ABOUT BALKARIANS AND KARACHAIS". Lot of pseudoscientific stuff like Sumerian-Karachay connection etc. @Kansas Bear: sorry to disturb, could you check the sources he used on Karachays The user uses a health related article as a source claiming it's about genetic origin, also the article cites someone else, claiming Karachays were "Alan-Bulgars"?

@Realblueberry: Again, I will ask you, are you trying to argue that Karachays, who have lived in the Northern Caucasus for centuries, are only classifiable as Turkic, and not Caucasian? You are the one who is manipulating information. this is all over same discussion that happened on Azerbaijanis article. Maybe refrain from edit warring and personal attacks as you did. Beshogur (talk) 07:07, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, please bring in another editor, and maybe refrain from reverting until another editor takes a look. @Kansas Bear, please see my edits/sources on the Karachay page. I cannot believe we are debating the fact that Karachay are a North Caucasian people... Realblueberry (talk) 07:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Listen, I don't disagree that Karachays may have some mixture of Turkic, but the reality is they cannot simply be labeled "Turkic people." They are a mixture of different groups that came to the Caucasus, and they also have ancient Caucasian DNA. You are welcome to add any credible source that points to their possible Turkic connections. Realblueberry (talk) 07:32, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@Realblueberry: can you define "North Caucasian ethnic group". Are Azerbaijanis than a "South Caucasian/North Iranian ethnic group"? Your mixing some stuff together. Yes they can be native or indigenous to North Caucasus similar how Crimean Tatars are considered indigenous to Crimea because their ethnogenesis was formed there, but your source is not even about genetic ancestry but health genetics, and cites another author claiming they're "Alan/Koban(whatever it is) and Bulgar" origin, which doesn't seem reputable view at all. And you are simply putting "Alan origin", while the source mentions something else (Alan/Koban/Bulgar). Beshogur (talk) 07:48, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I removed the Alan portion. It's been mentioned in a few sources, but I don't feel it's entirely necessary to include it at this point. If you look at the Wikipedia page for Peoples of the Caucasus you will see Karachay listed as Turkic-speaking. It's similar to how Circassians define themselves as a Northwest Caucasian ethnic group, the unifying factor being they are indigenous to the Northern Caucasus.

As far as the sources, these are studies that include ethnogenetic analysis. And the source on the Koban linkage is an archaeological source. Realblueberry (talk) 08:12, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1134/S1022795419010058 this source does not have to do with health. Realblueberry (talk) 08:22, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Karachays?

Was this issue resolved? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:23, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes it's fine. Thanks. Beshogur (talk) 14:32, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok. Sorry for my slow response. Feel free to ping me if you need any assistance. Stay safe, Beshogur. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Recognition of Hussein as Caliph

Sources for the recognition :

The caliphate of King Hussein received a rather heterogeneous recognition from the Arab world still under colonial domination. While Arab publications such as Al-Qiblah, Alif Ba and al-Nahdah supported him and the mosques of Damascus, Jerusalem, Beirut, Mecca, Medina or Aleppo organized public prayers for his caliphate, in Egypt the situation was different, the inhabitants having preferred that King Fuad of Egypt take the title. In the Haifa region, the British governor noted that Arab Christians and Muslims have lined up behind the new proclamation.

Al-Qiblah,‎ 10 march 1924. British Secret Service, , Jeddah, British Secret Service, 1-29 mars 1924, FO 371/100CWE 3356. Russel, , Haïfa, British Diplomatic Service, 11 mars 1924, E 2660 AgisdeSparte (talk) 17:43, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

You can also note that the Great Mufti of Jerusalem and the islamic authorities of Jerusalem recognized him as such as we can see from the Great Mufti's speech at his funeral on Al Aqsa compound. AgisdeSparte (talk) 17:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@AgisdeSparte: hmm I'm in mixed thoughts for the inclusion to the infobox. Maybe can be told in the body of the article, but doubt Hussain can be considered a successor to Abdul Mejid II. Beshogur (talk) 11:22, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

North Kyrgyz Confederation

Hello, I see that you are very interested in the history of the Turks. Can you please evaluate North Kyrgyz Confederation article for fictions and hoaxes? No authoritative publication uses such a name, and sources are forums, articles on which anyone can publish. It looks like pure fiction. Kazman322 (talk) 14:28, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Kazman322: to be honest, I am not such familiar with Kyrgyz history. Also the sources are almost all Kyrgyz. Not sure if I can help. Beshogur (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Dear @Kazman322:, is the encyclopedia of Kyrgyzstan just an ordinary forum for you? And if there are such sources in the article, can you show them to me? I, as the author of the article, could listen to your requirements. Foggy kub (talk) 04:59, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

• • Dear @Beshogur:, I apologize for your concern on your talk page!

Beyond good faith?

Hi there, I have found an edit summary where someone appeared to have called you Turkish racial supremacist. I have seen it the first time and adverted them that this might be understood in a negative way. Just to let you know. If you believe this goes beyond good faith... I can follow your reasoning. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: lol thanks. Anyways, he should be sanctioned for edit warring as well. Beshogur (talk) 18:55, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah this and your reaction sort of made my day. It keeps me laughing out loud since quite some while...ok I'll report him. I mean after after the Athaenara block, this should do as well. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:01, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I already opened ANI. Apparently he attacked other users as well. Beshogur (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

God Jul! Mutlu Noeller!

Hello Beshogur: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings}} to send this message

Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Thanks for wholesome message. Enjoy your holiday as well. Beshogur (talk) 16:29, 21 December 2022 (UTC)