User talk:PaleAqua/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like it here, and decide to stay.

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Good luck, have fun, and be bold! SchuminWeb (Talk) 13:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome and the links. PaleAqua 10:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Reversion
		For reverting so many unhelpful edits and vandalism on Wikipedia I User Swirlex award you this Barnstar.

Tibetan Buddhism colours

Hi friend. I was wondering if you could help alter the colours on the Template:Tibetan Buddhism. We want to use #9F1D35|textcolor=white on the parts that are red at present (although keep the yellow). The deep burgundy only works if the text is white -see vivid burgundy on Burgundy (color) -could you alter it like this? ♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦ ^Talk? 11:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Much appreciated. Modernist (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

HD-DVD

Did you just blindly undo the grammatical fix I made, without looking? I do believe that BluRay, or Blu-Ray, is a double cap proper noun. And wikipedia style guidelines keep headers in caps. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HD_DVD&diff=199436740&oldid=199427938 Lostinlodos (talk) 13:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the standard name for Blu-ray Disc has a lower case r and a capital D. Hence "Blu-ray Disc" and not "Blu-Ray Disc" is correct. Actually the sentence also has an additional error since the name is Blu-ray Disc, so it should something like be "... that could read both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc." The 2nd D in HD DVD also stands for disc. And I believe only the first word of headers and proper nouns are capitalized. PaleAqua (talk) 14:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: Mac OS X v10.6

That reference doesn't mention the release date. - Josh (talk | contribs) 17:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Replied at your page. PaleAqua (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

White

Hah! He finally got wise and quit vandalizing my userspace in between reverts - that's how I caught on to him so quick the last time. I've semiprotected the page now. Thanks! -- Vary | Talk

WP:AIV to request a block for a vandal, WP:RFPP to request a page protection, or WP:ANI for quick action on a particularly serious problem - if this guy had been repeatedly re-adding major BLP violations or personal info, for example. But pinging an admin who's been involved and just hasn't noticed yet that the problem has started up again, as you did here, is fine, too, and often quicker. -- Vary | Talk 21:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Date format choice

Pale, thanks for your inquiry. "year month day" is definitely not used on WP. Please see the link to MOSNUM on the standard date formats (in my edit summary). For US-related articles, US format is required; for other anglophone-country-related articles, international format is required (Canada is either). ISO is allowed only in cite templates. Can you tell me which article is in question? Tony (talk) 05:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Pale, that's an interesting example. Since Blu-ray Disc had no obvious connecction with a non-US anglophone country, and a clear majority of dates were formatted in US style, I made the call and converted all to US style as I delinked them. If there were local consensus, I'd easily be able to switch the format to international. MOSNUM says to go with the existing style unless there's a country-related reason to change it.

On your own prefs, may I suggest that you choose "no preference", since that will allow you to pick up inconsistencies and wrong global choices of format in article display mode. Yes, citation templates will take a while to sort out, but it does look as though ISO will be permissable there in the long term. MOSNUM permits the disparity between main text and citation-generated date formats that our readers have lived with for some time (since they don't have the autoformatting function)

Color sources

Can we have your comments at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Color_sources? Dicklyon (talk) 20:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying us at nlwiki about it. --Erwin(85) 07:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Variations of pink color chart and picture

The final color, #9, in the notable pink color chart in the Variations of pink article is now displayed as "dark pink" instead of "shocking pink", even though shocking pink is written as color #9 on the edit summary of the chart. I can't figure out how to fix it. Maybe you can figure it out. Thank you. Keraunos (talk) 08:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I made a typo in the template and it's been fixed. PaleAqua (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the marvelous picture that you added to the cherry blssom pink color box. That wonderful picture ([[1]) is fantastic! Keraunos (talk) 02:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me

How to change the layout of List of spherical astronomical bodies in the Solar System from horizontal to vertical. Serendi^podous 18:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Good change for shades of color template

In the midst of the deletion discussion on Template:Shades of brown I hadn't noticed your addition of the caveat to Template:Shades of color, and just came across it following the closure of the discussion. Perfect solution, thanks. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, was hoping it would help with the misrepresentation. Still leaves the definitive sounding coordinates in the infoboxes to deal with. Hopefully the infoboxes can get redesigned to make it clearer, I'll probably try to work on them when I get some time. What was done with the one in the Green article was a nice step in the right direction. There are also the color strips and the body text of many if not most of the color articles that erroneously imply or even directly state that the color names are precise colors. PaleAqua (talk) 20:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the info in the Green box seems more like it now. I saw that that had been mentioned in the discussion. It presents the information that's helpful with mischaracterizing it. Regards, —Largo Plazo (talk) 03:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Mac OS X move proposal

Hi there,

In September you commented on the proposal to move Mac OS X Snow Leopard to its original title, Mac OS X v10.6. I believe that its current title is most appropriate, and have opened another proposal for Mac OS X v10.3, v10.4, and v10.5 to follow this new convention and be moved to Mac OS X Panther, Tiger, and Leopard, respectively. I'd like to establish a consensus on the subject, and since you were involved in the previous discussion on the subject, I thought you might like to offer an opinion here as well. There is only one vote other than my own so far, and I'd like to hear some more opinions rather than declare a consensus on this limited basis.

Thanks in advance. If you'd like to contact me, please do so on my user talk page or the proposal itself. —INTRIGUEBLUE (talk|contribs) 21:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I just noticed you already posted. Thanks for your support. —INTRIGUEBLUE (talk|contribs) 01:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Shades of color

Oops! Sorry if I'd messed up this template. I experimented a bit and couldn't figure out what difference valign made. (I see it now.) • Anakin ^(talk) 03:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

No worries. The reason for the valign is easy to miss, and as you can tell it's mostly a minor cosmetic issue. PaleAqua (talk) 09:49, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

November 2009

I am not new to Wikipedia, I simply did not log in to my current account. I appreciate the belated welcome, however. My edit to the page does not appear to be reverted. I believe you were referring to the vandalism reversion that I had performed. Please be more specific the next time that this occurs. Thank you. Anonymous Wikipedian 17:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.58.144 (talk)

Sorry about the warning, but you accidentally restored some vandalized text when you reverted. The change [2] was the one I reverted. PaleAqua (talk) 23:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar of kindness

		The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
		The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar may be awarded to those that show a pattern of going the extra mile to be nice, without being asked. This barnstar is awarded to PaleAqua, for her dedication to comprimise and his ability to work with other editors to come up with amicable solutions which satisfies everyone. What a rare and pleasant surprise to see anyone change their stance on anything here, as you did here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Crayola crayon colors Thank you for your valiant efforts to promote peace in our project. Ikip (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It's "her" by the way. PaleAqua (talk) 00:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry *blush* With odds being 89% that the editor I am speaking with is male, I just defer to "his" but I fixed the award. Thanks again. Ikip (talk) 23:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

No worries, an easy assumption to make, especially since I use a 'blue' color for my online alias. PaleAqua (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Crayon Discussion is Going Nowhere

Hi, PaleAqua. I can't put together too much enthusiasm for the crayon discussions. They seem pointless to editing the articles. So, like other Wikisloths, I'm going to find other things to do. Good luck with the articles. Timothy Perper (talk) 03:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

No worries, I understand. Thanks for the input. PaleAqua (talk) 06:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

No :-(

?????????? I was not referring to you! I was indeed referring to a male Wikipedia editor on my passive-aggressive userpage post. Crayonsman (talk) 02:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I misread your user page. Take my apology then as for that then than for what it was for originally. :) PaleAqua (talk) 05:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It's ok! And I'm sorry you thought I was condemning you. Crayonsman (talk) 07:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Color code of hot magenta

You are correct. The correct code for hot magenta and purple pizzaz (they are two different names for the same color) is FF1DCE (255,29,206) from footnote #10, color codes supplied by Crayola. Someone had mistakenly entered on the list the old value for purple pizzaz (FF00CC) that was there before the Crayola color swatches were referenced to the article and I copied the old value for purple pizzaz to hot magenta (I knew they were the same color) because someone had mistakenly changed hot magenta to a reddish color. Keraunos (talk) 06:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

They are not really the same color from what I understand, even if the online crayon store use the same RGB approximation for them. For an example, from quickly searching google, I found the following a page with a picture of both crayons, [3]. PaleAqua (talk) 08:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion at Hot Magenta & Purple Pizzaz - Not the Same Color on the talk page for List of Crayola crayon colors. PaleAqua (talk) 18:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

iPod Main Image

I took this photo myself with my N82 camera phone, the statistics are listed, as they are with all the other images I've taken. I don't see what the issue is, and I've removed all the needless tags. Editor182 (talk) 10:59, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying that you didn't take the photograph or that you don't have a copyright on the images (which you can release), but unfortunately just because you took a picture of something doesn't mean that object you took a picture of lost it's copyright as it is a derived work, see Derivative work. PaleAqua (talk) 17:02, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

HSL and HSV Values

The CSS3 specification uses HSL values, so they will be needed in the future.

I found some php code convert to RGB to HSL format. I found two different functions.

This is the first one:

function rgb2hsl($rgb){
    $clrR = ($rgb[0]);
    $clrG = ($rgb[1]);
    $clrB = ($rgb[2]);
     
    $clrMin = min($clrR, $clrG, $clrB);
    $clrMax = max($clrR, $clrG, $clrB);
    $deltaMax = $clrMax - $clrMin;
     
    $L = ($clrMax + $clrMin) / 510;
     
    if (0 == $deltaMax){
        $H = 0;
        $S = 0;
    }
    else{
        if (0.5 > $L){
            $S = $deltaMax / ($clrMax + $clrMin);
        }
        else{
            $S = $deltaMax / (510 - $clrMax - $clrMin);
        }

        if ($clrMax == $clrR) {
            $H = ($clrG - $clrB) / (6.0 * $deltaMax);
        }
        else if ($clrMax == $clrG) {
            $H = 1/3 + ($clrB - $clrR) / (6.0 * $deltaMax);
        }
        else {
            $H = 2 / 3 + ($clrR - $clrG) / (6.0 * $deltaMax);
        }

        if (0 > $H) $H += 1;
        if (1 < $H) $H -= 1;
    }
    return array($H, $S,$L);
} 

These are the second set of functions.

/**
 * Convert a HSL triplet into RGB
 */
function _color_hsl2rgb($hsl) {
  $h = $hsl[0];
  $s = $hsl[1];
  $l = $hsl[2];
  $m2 = ($l <= 0.5) ? $l * ($s + 1) : $l + $s - $l*$s;
  $m1 = $l * 2 - $m2;
  return array(_color_hue2rgb($m1, $m2, $h + 0.33333),
               _color_hue2rgb($m1, $m2, $h),
               _color_hue2rgb($m1, $m2, $h - 0.33333));
}

/**
 * Helper function for _color_hsl2rgb().
 */
function _color_hue2rgb($m1, $m2, $h) {
  $h = ($h < 0) ? $h + 1 : (($h > 1) ? $h - 1 : $h);
  if ($h * 6 < 1) return $m1 + ($m2 - $m1) * $h * 6;
  if ($h * 2 < 1) return $m2;
  if ($h * 3 < 2) return $m1 + ($m2 - $m1) * (0.66666 - $h) * 6;
  return $m1;
}

/**
 * Convert an RGB triplet to HSL.
 */
function _color_rgb2hsl($rgb) {
  $r = $rgb[0];
  $g = $rgb[1];
  $b = $rgb[2];
  $min = min($r, min($g, $b));
  $max = max($r, max($g, $b));
  $delta = $max - $min;
  $l = ($min + $max) / 2;
  $s = 0;
  if ($l > 0 && $l < 1) {
    $s = $delta / ($l < 0.5 ? (2 * $l) : (2 - 2 * $l));
  }
  $h = 0;
  if ($delta > 0) {
    if ($max == $r && $max != $g) $h += ($g - $b) / $delta;
    if ($max == $g && $max != $b) $h += (2 + ($b - $r) / $delta);
    if ($max == $b && $max != $r) $h += (4 + ($r - $g) / $delta);
    $h /= 6;
  }
  return array($h, $s, $l);
} 

Here I tried to convert the function right above to MediaWiki Template format. I never programmed a template function before, so I do not feel confident putting my code into a template that would affect close to 500 articles. Plus, I am confused about using variables in MediaWiki template. I tried looking in the help pages, but I only found some info about variables that are brought in.

/**
 * Convert an RGB triplet to HSL.
 */
function _color_rgb2hsl($rgb) {
  $min = {{min, {{{r}}}, {{{g}}}, {{{b}}}}};
  $max = {{max, {{{r}}}, {{{g}}}, {{{b}}}}};
  $delta = $max - $min;
  $l = ($min + $max) / 2;
  $s = 0;
  {{#if: $l > 0 && $l < 1 | $s = $delta / ($l < 0.5 ? (2 * $l) | (2 - 2 * $l) }}
  $h = 0;
  {{#if: $delta > 0 |
    {{#if: $max == {{{r}}} && $max != {{{g}}} | $h += ({{{g}}} - {{{b}}}) / $delta}}
    {{#if: $max == {{{g}}} && $max != {{{b}}} | $h += (2 + ({{{b}}} - {{{r}}}) / $delta}}
    {{#if: $max == {{{b}}} && $max != {{{r}}} | $h += (4 + ({{{r}}} - {{{g}}}) / $delta}}
    $h /= 6}}
  return array($h, $s, $l);
} 

I know that I can create a hook that would allow the direct use of php functions, but that would mean that mediaWiki would install them directly into Wikipedia. I highly doubt that would be the case unless we can argue that these are standard mathematical functions that are just missing from php.

Zzmonty (talk) 14:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Is there really a need for this? If so, shoot me an email, and I can probably help you with it. I just re-wrote the formulas for converting HSL <-> RGB <-> HSV, and then played with quick/dirty python implementations thereof, for instance rendering the swatch charts at the bottom of HSL and HSV. –jacobolus (t) 05:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I also played a little with some templates that did this, but sort of worry that we are already giving computer representations of color too much weight in the color articles. I keep meaning to redesign the color infobox so that coordinates play less of a role and can be added in subboxes. For example the information box might have the follow information: Color name, alternate names for the same color, some sort of picture, name of the major hue(s) (for example Blue and Green for Turquoise), symbolism (considering how these have grown in the articles that have them maybe split off by sub theme -- for example liturgical symbolism etc.), common dyes and pigments associated with the color, objects/things associated with the color, etc. Then way at the bottom allow optional nested subboxes to added with color coordinates of various types. PaleAqua (talk) 05:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

iPod touch 3G

Hey

I notice you've readded the third generation 8GB iPod touch, however its made clear in the press release that this isn't a new model. Can you discuss this on the iPod touch talk page? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 12:47, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I replied there. Thanks. PaleAqua (talk) 18:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

advice

Thanks i didn't know. Tj1224 (talk) 18:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

iPhoneOS WikiProject

So is there anything specific that we have to do on here? Tj1224 (talk) 18:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

MathML PNG vs HTML

I'm guessing that my browser setup supports a little more of MathML markup then yours does. I partially reverted to the \,\! which should force PNG mode regardless of the browser and settings used. The page was rendering wrong for me after your revert. PaleAqua (talk) 18:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Huh. Can you test if \; does the trick? How many of these, (1) $V=M\;$, (2) $V=M\,$, (3) $V=M\,\!$ render as a png for you? As far as I know \; was forcing PNG rendering before, so I assumed that \, would too (being an even less common type of space). I don’t mind having some "negative spaces" in there; was just trying to keep the character count down and the syntax consistent. I don’t think we need to include a comment disclaimer with the code... these png-forcing spaces are used all over the place on WP, and there’s not too much chance of someone just deciding to remove them on a whim. I don’t care too much either way though, I guess. –jacobolus (t) 19:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Only (3) is rendered as PNG for me. I see: "(1) <span class="texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>M</i> </span>, (2) <span class="texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>M</i> </span>, (3) <img class="tex" alt="V = M\,\!" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/4/1/c41a5fa906363f00eb8a32061995da9f.png" />" in the source of the webpage. See the discussion on the MathML page that I originally linked to and from where I originally copied the disclaimer for more details about this. PaleAqua (talk) 19:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Gotcha. Every browser I have here (Firefox, Safari, Opera) renders all three as PNG files, and the last time I heard about it (a couple years ago), \; was thought to be generally sufficient. We should use \,\! though. Glad we’re having this chat, so we can stick to that across the board. :-) –jacobolus (t) 20:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Speaking of Safari, from the Webkit mailing list[4] sounds like they are about to throw the switch to enable MathML support by default in the development stream. Will be interesting to see what happens when that goes live. I'm viewing the site in an RSS reader with a builtin Webkit based browser, though I also run OmniWeb normally as my main browser. PaleAqua (talk) 06:02, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Apparently it depends on what settings are turned on in a user’s mediawiki preferences, too. Re:MathML: The non-png math I’ve seen in mediawiki sites is not done using MathML, and I’m not sure what kind of support MediaWiki has for converting math mode LaTeX to MathML. It’ll be interesting to see how MathML browser support works. Math rendering isn’t easy to do well (as evidenced by the number of math typesetting tools that do an atrocious job), and having good math fonts makes a huge difference – I somewhat don’t understand why OS vendors don’t just tweak the outline versions of the Computer Modern fonts used by TeX (moving glyphs to whatever font positions are most appropriate, etc.), and use those. All the math symbols (integrals, operators, etc. etc.) in TeX are really nice. –jacobolus (t) 20:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

You now have your very own color

Although we often disagree on many things, to thank you for the wonderful and useful work you have done refining and maintaining the Color Info Box: and refining and maintaining the Shades of Color Template:, I have created for you your very own color—Pale Aqua: !! Best wishes, Keraunos (talk) 07:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate the thought even if I'm not sure I agree on the value of having such a color in wikipedia or any other with prefixes pale, deep, etc. :) Sorry for the late reply, I've been out of town and otherwise busy so haven't had much chance to visit Wikipedia the last couple of weeks. PaleAqua (talk) 03:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit dispute over HSL and HSV

Since you were kind enough to leave comments on HSL and HSV in a past content dispute I was wondering if you would be willing to look at [Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Ownership of HSL and HSV] and leave a comment if you have one. Thank you. SharkD  Talk  02:25, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Apple Inc. August 2010 Newsletter

	The iNewsletter/issue 1/august 2010/by mono & dwayne
Project news After several months of collaboration on Macintosh, the article was delisted from featured article status. Last month, WikiProject Apple Inc. quietly launched several new departments (collaboration, outreach and strategy). A new program by the outreach department is preparing to launch a recruiting effort (ORDER). Please take a moment to welcome our new members: Eraserhead1, Leet Sher, and Allmightyduck. Details are being ironed out for a weekly project discussion on IRC. Contact Mono for more information.	The Macintosh task force and iOS task force welcome increased participation. The collaboration on Macintosh has ended, and Apple Inc. will be the next project, after a discussion at the project forums. The project's goal is to promote the article to good-article status. The Apple Inc. Portal just got a facelift; please check it out! Submissions for next month's content should be brought to the portal's talk page.
New articles Trenches (Video Game) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by GamerGeekGod (talk · contribs) started at 21:26, 3 August 2010 Power Macintosh (second generation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Infodriveway (talk · contribs) started at 20:40, 3 August 2010 Power Macintosh 5000 series (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Infodriveway (talk · contribs) started at 19:44, 2 August 2010 Sn0wbreeze (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Shinywhiteapple (talk · contribs) started at 09:13, 1 August 2010 Ih8sn0w (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Shinywhiteapple (talk · contribs) started at 09:04, 1 August 2010 Doodle Soccer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Abbieken888 (talk · contribs) started at 20:01, 31 July 2010 Flightradar24.com (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by CharlieLima (talk · contribs) started at 14:29, 31 July 2010 Scvngr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Danlev (talk · contribs) started at 21:58, 30 July 2010 Macintosh startup (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Airplaneman (talk · contribs) started at 22:05, 29 July 2010 Magic Trackpad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Airplaneman (talk · contribs) started at 13:03, 27 July 2010	Featured article Next, Inc. (later Next Computer, Inc. and Next Software, Inc. and stylized as NeXT) was an American computer company headquartered in Redwood City, California, that developed and manufactured a series of computer workstations intended for the higher education and business markets. NeXT was founded in 1985 by Apple Computer co-founder Steve Jobs after his forced resignation from Apple. NeXT introduced the first NeXT Computer in 1988, and the smaller NeXTstation in 1990. Sales of the NeXT computers were relatively limited, with estimates of about 50,000 units shipped in total. Nevertheless, its innovative object-oriented Nextstep operating system and development environment were highly influential.

Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of Mono at 01:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC).

Merger proposal

You are receiving this because you have commented on either Autogynephilia, Homosexual transsexual, or Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory in the past two years; all such commenters have received this notice. It has been proposed to merge these three articles to eliminate WP:Redundancy, WP:UNDUE, WP:POV, and to keep the focus on the specific Blanchardian theory of M2F transsexuality (in contrast to Transsexual sexuality, which would be to focus on the subject in general). Please feel free to comment on the proposal at Talk:Autogynephilia#Merger proposal. -- 70.57.222.103 (talk) 20:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice, just saw this so it's a bit late for me to comment. I see from the talk page that the merge has been completed. Seems like a reasonable approach without actually scanning the articles again. PaleAqua (talk) 21:51, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

New color displays for red, yellow, green, and blue

Please review the new color displays I have prepared to resolve the dispute regarding which colors to use to represent these four colors. The new color displays are at [5] under the section "New color displays". Best wishes, Keraunos (talk) 05:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Portal:IOS/Things you can do

A tag has been placed on Portal:IOS/Things you can do requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section P2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a portal based on a topic for which there is no non-stub header article, and there are not at least three non-stub articles detailing subject matter that would be appropriate to discuss under the title of that portal.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hang on}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion, or "db", tag; if no such tag exists, then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hang-on tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ~~Awsome EBE123~~(talk | Contribs) 15:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Aspen-Pitkin County Airport

I appreciate your pointing out that you were involved in the RM in voting in the MRV, but the purpose of the MRV is not to have everyone who voted in the RM to also vote in the MRV, but for impartial observers to review the process used in closing the RM to determine if the RM was closed properly. Apteva (talk) 00:47, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

My understand of the move review process is that people that took part in the discussion are allowed to take part in the discussion but are required to point out that they took part in the discussions. Thus I wanted to make it very clear that was the case. By opening those discussions ( you also get an implicit overturn or relist ) vote as someone that was part of discussion. I originally got involved in this discussion from the move review for Seattle/Tacoma International Airport and spent more time than I care to admit reading the MOS, WP:Title and related pages to understand the issue. It was only afterwards that I got involved in the other discussions. Many of the "impartial observers" that would have commented on these latest reviews have already got pulled in on the earlier move reviews so that pool is getting smaller. PaleAqua (talk) 02:23, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

When I started doing RM it was a steep learning curve going through what are now the 71 pages of WP:TITLE. I hope that you learned something that will be helpful. I tend to think that there are only a dozen editors who fully understand either WP:TITLE or WP:MOS (a dozen for each, none for both). I am not sure I comprehend the impartial observers sentence. There are about 3,000 active editors and about 800 active admins (and hundreds of millions of readers). That to me is the pool of impartial observers.

WP:RM is helpful because the dozen or so editors who understand the intricacies of titles can weigh in and perform closes. MRV is new and not very well known, and not very well advertised. What it does is allow a formal "appeal to reason process" if someone thinks that the close is inappropriate. I have also seen editors who disagree with a close simply re-open it themself, but I have never seen that done with an RM, that I can recall, and of course it is not possible with an AfD, because the article is gone, but for that there is a DRV. Apteva (talk) 04:37, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah it was an interesting read and the areas of thin compromise stood out. For example WP:Title mentions MOS punct, but doesn't say exactly where boundaries fall, just mentions certain characters in respect to it. My last time looking through MOS before this was during the great date unlinking wars some time in 2008. I didn't like the decision taken at that time, oh well.

MRV having a small number of watchers is what I meant by limited pool. Didn't realize MRV was that new, guess when I have some more time I might dig up some history and see what brought it about. I did think it was strange that it was set up for daily reviews when it only get's a few reviews a month. I haven't been as heavily editing as much as I used in the last few years. Decided the best way to avoid some differences of opinions that I had with another member of a WP that I used to be active in was just to ignore it and take a semi-break.

I've seen repeated move requests before but normally with a space between times. Though take a look at the talk archive for grey. First RM went from Feb 26 -> Mar 1, 2005, second RM started the next day, Mar 2. Orange has been up for RM a lot, just look at the number of requests at Talk:Orange (colour). PaleAqua (talk) 05:36, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

RFC/U for Apteva: move to close

I am notifying all participants in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Apteva that Dicklyon has moved to close the RFC/U, with a summary on the talkpage. Editors may now support or oppose the motion, or add comments:

• Link to the move to close

Please consider adding your signature, so that the matter can be resolved.

Best wishes,

Noetica^Tea? 04:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Title punctuation

I noticed in this edit[6] you used the edit summary "notice is appropriate". This is not the conclusion on the talk page, and you are simply participating in an edit war instead of reaching consensus for the inclusion. As noted on the talk page, this is a proposed guideline, and as such reflects the consensus of the community. There can not be two forms of consensus, one as there is now at MOS and one as there is now at WP:TITLE. One needs to change for there to be any consensus at all. The appropriate change is to remove the sentence at MOS that the styling of a title is done by the MOS. The entire purpose of this guideline is to move all styling issues that affect titles out of MOS and put them under the umbrella of Title. There are appropriate notices that could be added, but this is not one of them. For example, it could be marked disputed, but that is inappropriate for a guideline that is under development. By definition an essay is the opinion of one or more editors and does not need to reflect consensus, although it does need to represent a useful point of view. It is in my opinion, stupid and unprofessional to point out that the MOS does not reflect correct spellings. Apteva (talk) 19:18, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, PaleAqua. You have new messages at Kudpung's talk page.
Message added 15:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

IFD closures

Hi. I wanted to offer my thoughts on Nthep's reply to my question about image deletions, but don't really want to detract from the discussion there. Feel free to reply here, there, or ignore me completely, as desired. First, I should point out that my question asked for him to close the discussions, so saying "I wouldn't close them - I would !vote" isn't really an answer to my question. But anyway, FFD and PUF work a bit differently than AFD. With IFD nominations, the overwhelming majority of them are uncontested. I sometimes refer to these as "crap to delete" nominations and if I had my druthers, we would split them out from FFD completely and leave FFD only for in-use images. Of the in-use images nominated for deletion, maybe half of them get a comment or !vote. With most of them (at least, the ones that are fair use or where the licensing is in question), policy overrides counting heads. If an image does not meet the non-free content criteria, it gets deleted, no matter what !votes might be expressed. In fact, frequently there will be an image where there is a popular WP:ILIKEIT defense for keeping it and the !votes for keeping overwhelm the few policy-related reasons for deleting it. One that I sometimes point to is this discussion. This image of a Time Magazine cover was used in an article about the general subject area that the cover depicted and there was a WikiProject ardently in support of keeping it there. An admin needs to - as the closing admin did in this case - carefully read the arguments, but make a policy-based decision. Certainly, there are fair use images where good faith and well-informed users can disagree about their appropriateness and in such cases, the admin handling IFD does, as I believe you were saying, take care not to simply be exercising an admin "super vote" ... but his answers to a and c are pretty unambiguously correct (b as he points out could go either way and I too would probably close it as a keep / no consensus). --B (talk) 02:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I appreciate your replying here as I agree that on page reply's can be distracting. I actually agree with his reasoning, it just sounded to me more of a "super vote" answer in the way it was phrased. To be honest, I probably will end up changing my vote. PaleAqua (talk) 02:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

About the origins of the X11 color list

Hi there PaleAqua. I am contacting you by recommendation of User:Keraunos, whom I approached as I attempted to investigate the historical origins of the X11 color list. You can see my rather limited findings and original questions to him here, and his response here. I also asked at unix.stackexchange.com, and got a partial answer, but for some reason unknown to me, it was deleted. Here's an archived version of Google's cache of the page before the answer was deleted. Anyway, considering the doubts expressed in the pages I linked above, if there is any extra detail that you could provide about who compiled the list of X11 colors, how they did it, what sources (if any) it was derived from, etc., I'd greatly appreciate it :) Cheers, Waldir ^talk 22:15, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Volume three of the O'Reilly's X WIndow System User's Guide has more information. In the OSF/Motif 1.2 edition I have ( ISBN 1-56592-015-5 ) it talks about them on page 346 through 348 in a section called "Surveying the RGB database: rgb.txt". Of interest is the mentioning that the colors have been designed to display well on common monitors with a footnote that earlier versions were designed to display properly on vt240 terminals. In Google books you can see page 346 at here. There are some other interesting bits about how the list is organized. Note that the X10R3 release notes mention various VAXstations, Lexidata and a port being made by Sun. I remember hearing that the Sun version actually had different numbers in their rgb.txt file that were calibrated for their displays which used a different gamma correction. The original intent as I understand it was that each X11 server would have an rgb.txt file that was calibrated for it. The introduction in "X Window System" 3rd ed. by Robert W. Scheiffer and James Getty ( ISBN 1-55558-088-2 ) mentions the following in the introduction on page 10 "We redesigned X to support color during the second quarter of 1985, with Digital's eventual VAXstation-II/GPX as the intended target." Chapter 6 talks about the color API, mentions XYZ and Luv color formats as well as the "depreciated" #RGB format. ( I've never seen an X11 client program use anything but #RGB format. ) Unfortunately I leave most of my X11 manuals at work so can't check the other ones I have, might be some interesting stuff in volume 8 ( ISBN 0-93717-583-8 ) the admin guide which has a section on color management if I recall. PaleAqua (talk) 08:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks a lot, all this is great info! But what I was most curious about was the historical development of the color list. For instance, in the stackexchange answer I mentioned above, Sukminder said "But; that does not mean he [Bob Scheifler] or they [Bob Scheifler and Tony Della Fera] actually coined the names. It could also origin form the Ultrix Window Manager as it got included in X. It at least uses color naming like Aquamarine, MediumSeaGreen etc." Do you have any insight on this? And regarding the Usenet archives, what years, newsgroups, authors, and keywords would you suggest me to use to search for some messages regarding this process? --Waldir ^talk 13:40, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry don't really have much more info. I imagine it was the Project Athena team that picked a bunch of the names, I would suggest searching around 1985-1986 and for stuff by Bob ( rws@... ), Jim ( jg@... ) and Tony and groups such as comp.windows.*, net.unix, net.graphics. Oh found an interesting post by Jim Gettys while searching USENET. I knew that X was named after W but sounds like there was a V as well. Besides just searching have you considered emailing them? Or even asking in one of Xorg IRC channels? PaleAqua (talk) 16:47, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

This webpage looks like it has some more information. Implies that a bunch came from matching crayons. PaleAqua (talk) 19:37, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry for not saying anything in a while; I've been a little busier than usual for the past few days, but rest assured that I'll let you know of any advances I make on this front :) Cheers, Waldir ^talk 15:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Update: the StackExchange answer has been reinstated, and now includes even more detail! Check it out here: http://unix.stackexchange.com/a/75466/30336 :) --Waldir ^talk 15:25, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Nice. PaleAqua (talk) 15:41, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

RM close review

I was wondering whether you saw my comments here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2013_May

Might that affect your decision?

Thanks, --B2C 19:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Saw your comment, though it looks mostly a rehash of the arguments. A no consensus result does not prohibit another RM. Though I think you under weigh the opposing view. It basically boils down to does Wikipedia have a style of it's own or should it follow some sort of common style; are marks such as punctuation spelling or are they style; which sources are valid for the spelling / style of the name; etc. PaleAqua (talk) 21:49, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The Progressive Barnstar

		The Progressive Barnstar
		I couldn't find a barnstar that would adequately thank those involved in making the template editor user right RFC a reality, so I created this new one. The Progressive Barnstar recognizes those courageous enough to work towards a vision for change at Wikipedia. PaleAqua, your big-picture views and support were invaluable. I especially appreciated your pointing out the benefits of the route we eventually chose, namely that a new permission would allow full protection to remain an option for admin-only edits. That was a major reason the proposal seemed in the end to be so elegant, and I further consider it to have been a major reason many of the Support votes weren't Opposes. I shudder to think what the votes would have looked like had you not been around to call attention to this. I consider the proposal a success at this point, no matter what the eventual outcome, and I thank you. equazcion (talk) 06:27, 18 Sep 2013 (UTC)

Thanks was glad to have helped. You and everyone else involved did a great job with the proposal. PaleAqua (talk) 01:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

802.?n

Thanks for your note. Rich Farmbrough, 22:21 3 February 2008 (GMT).

Log to archived discussion

Hi PaleAqua, Thank you for adding the log after the move discussions had been archived at Talk:ANZAC Mounted Division. Would you be able to add a similar log to the archived discussion at Talk:Battle of Jaffa (1917)? --Rskp (talk) 03:13, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Archive 1 was missing a space in the name so wasn't picked up by the talk header template. Renamed the archive page per the standard pattern fixed the header. PaleAqua (talk) 04:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

BTW The archiving on that page looks a little strange. The same sections appeared to have been archived multiple times and then restored to the page, might need a cleanup. PaleAqua (talk) 04:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Will do. --Rskp (talk) 05:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The whole of Archive 2 is a copy of the first few posts of Archive 1 and probably should be deleted. Not sure how to do that tho ... Sorry to be a pest. --Rskp (talk) 05:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Cleaned up the best I could. Would take an admin to delete that page though not sure it is 100% necessary as it might eventually get reused by the archive bot. I also tweaked some archiving settings. 15d seemed a bit short for a page with so little chat, and set the thread keep value up to the default of 5. PaleAqua (talk) 06:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks very much. --Rskp (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Pending changes 2014 RfC Proposal 12

Hello! As a result of discussion with other editors regarding Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2014, I have made a slight change to Proposal 12 to remove the so-called "exclusivity clause". For the change, see this diff. I am posting this notice on your talk page because you have already inserted comments on the original proposal, and I want to make sure you are aware of the change so that you may revise your comments if you wish to do so.

I apologize for the confusion. If you wish, you may slap me. Ivanvector (talk) 03:09, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, already saw the change. While I prefer the exclusive version—as I believe proposals 1 and 2 will have the net effect of prolonging dispute resolutions—I am not against the change. I've since noted in my support that I am aware of the change. PaleAqua (talk) 03:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, PaleAqua. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2014#Neutral section.
Message added 18:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

ANI

I was about to reply (agreeing with you) but I think you should probably fix the typo first... haven't don't? Andrewa (talk) 15:43, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Oops. Looks like I lost part of my comment as well. Had an edit conflict and must not have gotten the whole thing in my cut and paste buffer, though the extra really wasn't that important. PaleAqua (talk) 16:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

@Andrewa: Given that the user turned out to be a sock, I'm wondering if I should have spoken my suspicions earlier. I had a sneaking feeling that they might be given the age of the account, editing pattern and discussions that got involved in, but wasn't sure what to do especially given AGF and no idea who if any they were a sock of. Any suggestions for the future if I notice another such account? ( I did notice one other recently but they have already been blocked. ) PaleAqua (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that heads-up. I had similar suspicions, based on the age of the account, the speed with which they learned their way around, and a vague impression of dishonesty in ignoring policy when it suited them. But like you I simply did not know how to pursue them. So I'm not a lot of help. How was this one exposed, do you know?

The problem is of course that socks can be very clever. User:Mama meta modal kept their disruption to a level that was as disruptive as possible without giving clear grounds for an RfC/U, at least not to one such as I who has no experience in raising them. I guess ANI is the proper avenue, but it wasn't a magic wand on this occasion. Or was it part of the reason that they were investigated as a sock? Andrewa (talk) 01:35, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Good question, the ANI post was referenced in the sock report. Guess I'll should figure out how for the next time I suspect... ( and in case I have any talk page stalkers... any other suggestions on how to deal with such in future? ) PaleAqua (talk) 02:32, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Mostly for my future reference. Looks like WP:HSOCK, WP:SIGNS ( though I don't see the signs I noticed there - would have thought new user with knowledge of guidelines etc. was a sign ), and WP:SPI look like the relevant pages. Seems like SPI though requires knowing at least two of the socks involved which wouldn't have helped in this case. PaleAqua (talk) 04:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Heartbleed

Hi PaleAqua,
Thanks for your involvement on Heartbleed. Did your recent edit remove the Dubious tag intentionally? If so, are you aware of a source confirming that the bug wouldn't have had security implications if OpenSSL hadn't used custom memory management? --Chealer (talk) 02:44, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes I intentionally removed the dubious tag. A free-list implementation works by returning recently freed memory from the free list instead of from the default allocator. This means memory request will return previously released memory from the OpenSSL library by definition of how a free list works. The source code clearly shows that is exactly what OpenSSL does ( and still does ). Further the statement doesn't say that it wouldn't have had a problem without a free-list implementation ( though to be honest on many platforms it trigger a core dump pointing directly to the issue in the source code if a free-list was not used ), it meanly states that it compounds the issue. Which it does as the free list almost quarantees that any memory allocated would be from the OpenSSL stack and of direct interest to attackers. PaleAqua (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

If you are interested a free list works like this ( you could check the exact source I linked to verify ):

• When memory allocated the free list is walked looking for a block that is larger enough to handle the request.
• If a suitable block is found that block is removed from the free list and used to satisfy the memory request. This allocated block will typically be larger than the requested amount.
• If no suitable block is found, a new block is allocated from one of the normal system memory routines ( even malloc, sbrk, mmap or the like ) and a header is added to allow it to be added to the free list later. In practice this does not happen that often once a system is running.
• When memory is return, instead of just returning it to the system it is added to the free list. ( Most free-list implementations add it to the front of the free list, as that avoids having to walk the list and saves from having to use a doubly linked list. )
• In particular the above means that memory returned is very likely to be the memory just freed.

PaleAqua (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed answer. Do I understand correctly that an allocator based on a free list will never release memory to the OS? Based on what you said, let me rephrase my second question: Are you aware of a source confirming that the likeliness of allocated memory blocks to contain data from memory blocks that had been previously requested and freed by OpenSSL is the result of OpenSSL's custom memory management (based on a free list)? --Chealer (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Reverted my self, while OpenSSL does use a free list it doesn't appear to be used by dtls1_process_heartbeat which calls OPENSSL_malloc which calls CRYPTO_malloc which probably calls ( it configurable ) malloc, sorry I was taking sources at face value. Alas looking into the source like I just did is more original research. I still haven't ruled out free list being in play further in, for example I haven't looked at the code to dtls1_write_bytes yet. While, there are sources that have criticized OpenSSL's use of a free list, but it seems tangental to heartbleed. For the other question, there are cases where freelist_insert would free memory instead of placing it back on one of the lists. ( There are size requirements, number of entries on the list etc. ). PaleAqua (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the quick answer and reaction. If allocation based on a free list can free memory, then I don't see much difference with default memory management, unless one happens to free more aggressively than the other (but since default memory management varies so much between implementations and even installations, that would be difficult to measure). --Chealer (talk) 03:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Actual frees should still be rare with a free list. The other issue is a system malloc that returns uninitialized memory ( which not all of them do -- some don't even actually allocate the memory until the first write ) could return memory from a much number of sources. Even if confined to mallocs in the application, where-as the uninitialized memory from a free list is localized to memory that is allocated and released to that free list. In the case of an ssl/tls library the interesting bits are the ones allocated and released by the library itself, so a free-list implementation means that exploitable data is more likely to be exposed. There are also the cases where free list and even indirect wrappers such as the OPENSSL_malloc / CRYPTO_malloc stuff prevent a lot of memory analysis tools from working correctly as I explained before. Especially stuff that works by instrumenting the code as the calls to malloc are obscured through a pointer to function call. PaleAqua (talk) 03:41, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Reviewer granted

Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on pages protected by pending changes. The list of articles awaiting review is located at Special:PendingChanges, while the list of articles that have pending changes protection turned on is located at Special:StablePages.

Being granted reviewer rights neither grants you status nor changes how you can edit articles. If you do not want this user right, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time.

See also:

• Wikipedia:Reviewing, the guideline on reviewing
• Wikipedia:Pending changes, the summary of the use of pending changes
• Wikipedia:Protection policy#Pending changes protection, the policy determining which pages can be given pending changes protection by administrators. — MusikAnimal ^talk 23:47, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks PaleAqua (talk) 00:52, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks, Missed where I was when I wrote that. Appreciate the move. Hobit (talk) 04:17, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

No problem. BTW, I assume you meant #4 instead of #3. You might want to tweak your comment. PaleAqua (talk) 04:23, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

My talk page auto archive; where did I go wrong?

Hi, PaleAqua. Neonorange with a question for you. I now have a working setup for auto archiving my talk page, User Talk:Neonorange. After your explanation at the PC2 talk page on branching, collating, merging (with a colored graph, yet), I thought you'd be able to help me.

The Miszabot (or whatever the current incarnation) cycle just archived the first 70 KB of my talk page, but with no navigation aid. After scanning the examples and explanations at the help page, and looking at your set-up, the only difference I can see is that you place the 'archiveheader = ' line right after 'User:MiszaBot/config'; my 'archiveheader =' is after the 'archive = ' line. Other than that, the only difference (not counting the User talk parameter) I see is the extra spaces in my config.

Could you take a look at User Talk:Neonorange and offer suggestions? I have not changed my config; unless you have a suggestion, I will back out the archiving, reposition the 'archiveheader =', and let the cycle run again.

Thanks. - Neonorange (talk) 03:49, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

See Help:Archiving a talk page if you haven't yet. You are missing {{talk header}} or an equivalent ( see archive box for more options ) at the top your talk page. I believe the bots only add the navigation headers to the archive pages when they are created, since you created archive 1 it would use what you had there. Change {{talk archive}} to {{talk archive navigation}} on User talk:Neonorange/Archive 1 to get your first archive to have the navigation headers. PaleAqua (talk) 04:18, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I see: same old problem - computers do what you say, not what you mean. I will try your suggestion in the next day or so (what's a day or two, after waiting four months for PC2 closure B^) - Neonorange (talk) 05:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

As someone that works on patching systems it's a problem that I partly earn my living on. :) I fear someday someone will invent the DWIM programming language. PaleAqua (talk) 05:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Once, long ago, I got a freelance assignment to patch a program for a bank. The program was written in assembly language (or COBOL, maybe); there was no documentation; there was no source code; the computer was a Burroughs B2500 model (if I remember correctly) that had three-address instructions. The only way to approach the problem was to toggle in trap instructions into memory while the program was paused (or edit a binary image punch card deck). I did have a core dump printout, but ... I gave up, never did know the outcome. - Neonorange (talk) 06:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Cool, I never got to work much with mainframes and punch cards. Earliest I got was teletypes. Yeah figuring out code bugs especially from binary code can be a nightmare. PaleAqua (talk) 16:31, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Made even more nightmarish by instructions modifying instructions in an attempt to shrink program sizes. With the very limited core memory, many times the goal for business programming, especially, was small programs at the expense of speed, since the peripherals were so slow (tape drives > 80 KB/sec, card readers, punches > 5 KB/sec) and no random access. On the other hand, computer time was twenty times the cost of programmer time, so thorough debugging was the economical route. Now, the ratio has reversed, and gone, for X86 class platforms, at least an order of magnitude in the other direction. With predictable results for the consumer/client, the new debugging environment. (Well, ok, real-time and random access happened, and ram size increased by six to seven orders of magnitude, execution time for logic instruction decreased from milliseconds to picoseconds... but still, I'd imagined the programming and debugging environment would have sort kept pace.) And to think, as an undergraduate I was going to work with a professor in AI (which was 20 years off, then, in the late 1960s; and now 45 years later, the horizon is... 20 years off.) Perhaps a good thing I changed careers, and that the horizon is still 20 years off; with the singularity somewhen beyond. You will not have to worry about DWIM until it no longer makes a difference. - Neonorange (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Self modifying code is always fun. Bonus points for optimizing code and read only data. Though debuggers do have to modify code to do watch points and the like, so I've had a bit of experience injecting code and traps into running software. I still remember loading programs on the Commodore PET; I would start the tape drive, go have lunch and then come back to play with the program. I studied AI a little bit in college, was pretty interested in neural networks back in the day. They have actually gotten pretty impressive, given stuff like Watson. And some of it is every now making it's way into retail products such as Siri; granted Siri cheats by having doing the work on a server instead of the phone. So I think they are now only 19 years away with full AI. :) PaleAqua (talk) 21:34, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Don't speak of Siri; I've been doing a lot of editing with my iPad.. the autocorrect isn't (at least for me), and is doubling the time spent. I have a Bluetooth keyboard, but don't use it because then, why bother with an iPad. In 1981 I "owned" my first computer, a Sinclair with no tape interface; then Apple //e, //c, CompUSA 386 notebook (kept the //e alive until early 90s with brain surgery) - plug in hybrid chip CPU and cache with 8 X clock speed [8 MHz], mouse board, time and date board, and 5 MB hard drive [internal, fitted into a compatible power supply case along with a new & smaller PSU], then a long series of overclocked Intel homebuilts from Celeron 300a through Pentium II, II, and 4 to currently a i5. I gave up on overclocking when the TPD became too much for Peltier plate cooling, and phase change seemed too kludgey. And never did but one useful, productive programming task after I quit being paid for the work! Seems that, for me, without 18-hour-and-7-coke-days, and money, the desire was gone (and the programming environment had passed me by.) - Neonorange (talk) 23:01, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The Apple II were cool a that friends was really into them, but was a total Commodore fan back in the day. Even was the president of a small Amiga club for a short while. My first computers were some PET 2001-8N's in 1979, though really they were my father's from a computer store he had started which failed, we had a three of them. We actually upgraded one of them to a whopping 32k. My second—though first I really owned myself—was a Vic-20 in '81. I miss programming for fun. Used to do a lot more hobby programming, but doing it for work really drains me mentally. PaleAqua (talk) 02:56, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

PC2

Thanks for all the productive discussion on PC2, and best of luck for the next round. - Dank (push to talk) 22:13, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks to you, Jc37 and all the others that stuck their neck out to work on the close. Glad to see you deal well with it despite all our grumblings. PaleAqua (talk) 22:52, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

No problem at all, happy to help. - Dank (push to talk) 22:58, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Half Barnstar
	I don't feel strongly about the non-BLP links, but I do feel strongly about your approach: I wish that more editors followed your collaborative, cooperative example. Thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:24, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

A thank-you message for you

Hello, PaleAqua. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Received. PaleAqua (talk) 01:55, 12 July 2014 (UTC)