User talk:Patrick/July 2006 - May 2007

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Image:Jin weiying.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded, Image:Jin weiying.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Icarus 07:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

U.S.S.COLE

The U.S.S COLE two attcker thing is so wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Maplewood90

You seem to refer to USS Cole bombing. What is wrong?--Patrick 22:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Bha

Template:Bha has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jon513 15:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Mapeuc

Template:Mapeuc has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.. Neil916 16:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC) (It was added by another user, not me, I'm just calling your attention to it.)

Picking up your dirty laundry

Sort of <g>.

Also properly categorized your {{fs}}, {{Co}} and {{Cod}} creations, which certainly aren't being used much. But I may do so, now that they can be found. Have you tested the Co template against wiki's colors besides your shortlist (light-blue, light-yellow, etc.)? Do tell! Best regards. // FrankB 18:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

When you expand an article, e.g. adding a category tag, there is no reason to complain that previous editors have not done that yet.--Patrick 13:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Saw the above

when leaving, and got into it on your side...

See: Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_19#Template:Mapeuc and the one below. If you need more how-to advice, ask... it's part of what I do as a member of WP:Wc. Templates are a great tool, but must be used wisely... but don't rush to me yet. Starting very soon, I'll be away until mid-month. User:fabartus/graphics has some good techniques. Try adapting one of the tables in that for a table version. Or Perhaps {{MBTA}} for a well behaved version if your zoom maps are to achive any widespread use. Should categorize under Navigational templates too. Unlike the one's I nominated as useless, those two have merit, and people like the nominator piss me off with their underhanded trickery. Best wishes. You might consider adding {{db-author}} to the one's I nominated and pick up your own laundry, so to speak! <g> Best wishes // FrankB 19:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

TfD nominations

Dear Patrick and fellow Dutchman I assume :), I was surprised today by several unpleasant edits by User:Fabartus to your talk page (see above), my talk page and the TfD page containing (among others) your mapeuc template. These included this edit on the TfD page (note also the edit summary): [1] and this edit my talk page: [2].

Just for the record, I want to state that I understand that you have not been involved in these edits and that I have no personal grudge against you or your contributions to Wikipedia (which are many and good since a long time). This might seem as a superfluous statement from my side, but I must admit I was a bit shocked by the edits above. I have also notified in kind words Fabartus on his talk page and explained to him my reasons for nominating your templates.

Happy editing, Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 20:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

At least he focuses more on improving articles and templates than on deleting what he does not like. For example, deleting valuable station location info, because of some formatting issue, is not helpful. Neither is deleting an article about public transport around The Hague. That was supposed to grow and the content neither fits well in country-wide articles, nor in the article The Hague, which would get too long.--Patrick 13:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry you feel that way, it certainly was not meant to offend you. As I have also stated to him, I have no objections to an article about public transport around The Hague, as long as it is a decent, encyclopedic article. That does not mean it must be a large article, also small articles can be encyclopedic. But the article, which looked like this: [3] at the time I proposed the deletion is essentially only a list of train stations (which is incomprehensible due to the use of the mapeuc template 3 times) and 2 boxes that contain only a list of trainstations without real explanation.

There is nothing wrong with lists, we have many on Wikipedia. This article has a list of stations in The Hague and lists of stations along some lines, and a useful see also list. There is also prose, you can add more.--Patrick 18:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

But, to show a more constructive spirit then, maybe it is a better idea to have articles about public transport per province? That does not generate the precendent of having such articles for each city and might indeed allow the articles to evolve into mature, encyclopedic articles. I would certainly be willing to contibute to articles like that. We could start with Public transportation in South Holland and expand it to other provinces.

That is fine, go ahead.--Patrick 18:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

About the Mapeuc template, I really think it disturbs the layout of articles. Why do we need 10 links for each of 4 website that show maps? If it would be only 1 or 2 links to maybe 1 or 2 websites, it would no longer dominate the layout of the article.

Let me know how you feel about this, best regards, Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 13:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Withdrawn one nomination

Just to let you now that I have withdrawn the nomination of Template:Mapeuc, for reasons mainly brought up by User:Fabartus. I still feel it should be used with a lot of care though, because it can severly limit the readability of an article in which it is used. The other template can never server useful purposes in main space (how often does the number of trainstations in The Hague change that we need a template for information like this?) and as a subst template it has a better place in user space. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I am glad to hear that. I made a version Template:mapnlc (backlinks edit) with less links, a set sufficient for the Netherlands. Are you going to restore the template calls?--Patrick 17:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll be restoring them now, but I have edited your template to include less zoom levels (people will usually only click one of them and then zoom further in or out on the map page). Hope you don't mind I've taken this liberty, but I really think it improves the usefulness of the template. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 20:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The three links that were there before are now restored. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 20:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but you are forgetting four [4].--Patrick 21:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Underlining

re. your: Please do not use underlining, many people use it to indicate links.--Patrick 08:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

See also: Template talk:Mapeuc

So sorry to disappoint you, but a link will take you somewhere, and when you hover over it, the where shows up in the status bar. Why not capitulate to the blue underlined links that the rest of the world suffers with (and most all browsers use as a default) instead of asking a virtual stranger to take care of you as if you were a child?

Many more people dislike bold, and caps, claiming they are shouting, so that would give me only inferior and hard to see italics which people might miss and I otherwise need for block quoting, etcetera (i.e. they're already overworked), so I don't think I can accommodate you since it took someone half a day to convince me to stop using those.

But when (and if) you stop using template space as your private pages, and demonstrate you've learned to categorize such creations, for at least six months, and I'll think about it as a special favor. Especially if you develop some sense of how to present things with some sense of beauty so people aren't feuding over your more grandiose and overdone work outputs. Enthusiasm is a grand thing, but do try and bridle the beast, as most will not share your momentary infatuations.

I went to bat for you on principle, not because I believe you took adequate care or demonstrated good care in that task, and may even use {{mapeuc}} now that I know about it. But templates are for common and widespread needs, not whims of the moment. If you fix it up proper, you should publicize such so others can use in other articles as well.
   Do peruse this timesink on your behalf before thinking me unkind.
   In sum, I've spent way too much time picking up your dirty socks already to toss away such a useful tool. Sorry. I need all the tools I can get in my toolbox if this society so much more near universally dislikes the other forms of emphasis. Personally, it seems awfully 'sixties' to me, back in the days of manual typewriters, not modern WYSIWIG. Shrug. None of us can determine another's tastes, likes and dislikes.
   Thanks very much for {{fs}} and {{cod}} btw. They will be especially handy in tables, and now that they've been categorized, perhaps even used somewhere significant.
   In return, may I present you {{s}} and {{i}} which will aid you in prettifying such stuff as {{mapeuc}} other tables hereafter.
   Best wishes, nonetheless. I just can't accommodate this request. // FrankB 06:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC) - User:Fabartus

Your reply is chaotic (mixing up various topics) and arrogant, but anyway, underlining can be discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (emphasis).--Patrick 23:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Category:All pages needing cleanup

Please see: Template talk:Cleanup-date#Category:All pages needing cleanup. Dragons flight 14:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

unicode bug and your edits

re: changes to {{space}} using {{unicode}} ... seeing bugs. Please check your email ASAP. // FrankB 18:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Booksources

Hi Patrick,

As an admin, could you pls help me in finding out, who is responsible for special pages, such as Special:Booksources? I would like to have two Slovak search sites included in the special page, which contains links to such sites in around 35 countries, but not SKia :-(. The sites are the Slovak National Library and the University Library in Bratislava, which by law collect domestic published material, and so contain all resources published in Slovakia with an ISBN number plus, of course, a lot of foreign books. (ISBN numbers automatically link to Special:Booksources). The sites are:

• [http://www.kis3g.sk/cgi-bin/gw_45_1/chameleon?lng=en&skin=snk] for the SNL
• [http://www.kis3g.sk/cgi-bin/gw_45_1/chameleon?lng=en&skin=ukb] for the ULB

Thanks, Peter. PeterRet 10:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The content is controlled by Wikipedia:Book sources. It is not protected, you can edit it yourself (or propose it first on the talk page).--Patrick 11:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks :-). PeterRet 14:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Can You Help Me?

Perhaps you can help me, if not maybe you know someone who can. Anyways, do you know how to "fix" an embedded link so that, when it is clicked, it opens up, say, half-way down a page rather than up at the top as usual? I'm working on the Ian McDiarmid article and would like to make it so the link in "selected stage work" opens right at the list of all the plays he's been in (far too many to list in his entry, and yet too trivial to make as an article in and of itself). Thanks b_cubed 06:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The HTML source of the target page needs to have <a name=..> or <.. id=..> at the target item as anchor to link to. This is not the case here, so unless you have control over the target page it does not seem possible here.--Patrick 08:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Self-contained

Hello Patrick, I saw your comment on my changes on Black Book (2006 film). I agree with you on having the "Plot" section self-contained, but not on your decision to put the names back. I added an introductory first paragraph to "Plot" before the spoiler warning. This introductory paragraph contains allready all the names of the principle characters and is part of the "Plot" section.

I would like to refer to what I read in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Films/Style_guidelines#Plot:

"The plot section is made self-contained, so plot details and actor names already mentioned in the lead section are repeated here. Then put in a {{spoiler}} template, which will warn readers of the article not to proceed if they do not want the film "spoiled" for them."

Best regards, Ilse@ 08:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

My idea is that people who do not mind spoilers want to read directly concrete info like "colleague at the SD office", with actor name, without the need to read vague info like "her Dutch colleague" also.--Patrick 00:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Euclidean group

I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Euclidean group. Feel free to comment. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 04:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Patrick. I start to think that my comments at the link above were not very constructive. To put it more constructively, I believe you have a tendency to go into a wealth of details when the time is not right, and that stalls the reader, as one can't then keep track of the overall article structure. I believe that article looks much better now the way Charles reordered things.

I know I bugged you about this earlier, I know that we disagree on this, but I thought I'd still comment to you on this one more time. Ultimately what we all want is well-written articles for people, right?

You can reply here if you have comments. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You would have been more constructive if you tried yourself to do the reordering you like so much.--Patrick 05:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a good point. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 06:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Template:Ph:Reverting

I have reverted this template back to the blank version. It's main purpose is to add content to Help:Reverting. However, since the original creation in November 2005, its Meta master has included and updated all the content from the en template, as far as I could tell. I noticed that after a manual update. The template is now badly repetitive with the master, and contradictory at points. I noticed this recently after I wagged my finger at a user for exactly mimicking admin rollback script, and the response was that they had learned the format from the help page. Help:Reverting, with Template:Ph:Reverting showing its old content, is just a mess. Until someone spends the time to actually pick through and see if there is anything en specific to say, it's better off blanked. - BanyanTree 15:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. Your comment "the master is now a redirect" suggested that you thought Template:Ph:Reverting was supposed to be a copy of Meta's version.--Patrick 11:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I did, but your explanation makes much more sense. I left a message at Help talk:Contents asking what was going on with these page (not having edited the Help namespace before) and never got a response. Now that I know that we on en actually write those pages, I can completely see how people added content to the template, which in turn eventually got integrated into the master for the page. To say that I'm put off by how these pages work (or don't work) would be an understatement. Thanks, BanyanTree 12:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

See also m:Help_talk:Reverting#Too_Wikipedia-centric.--Patrick 13:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Forced thumb size

Hoi Patrick, do you care to give any comments over here? (een advies van je in 2005 op meta wordt nu een beetje uit zijn verband getrokken als een verplichting geloof ik. Ik weet niet hoe je er nu tegen aankijkt). --Van helsing 21:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Table sorting

Implementation ready, or wait? Love it. --Van helsing 22:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we can start using it. The only unfortunate thing is that comma and space separators have to be removed to allow numeric sorting.--Patrick 00:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Patrick. Am playing around with it a bit, and naturally when you give people a present, they start to ask questions about it :-). Sorry about that:

• (Ranked list of Dutch provinces) Why does Density still need multiple clicks (4 click cycle) to sort 1,207.4 of South Holland properly (one nbsp or 2 nbsp's before the others for the "1," don’t seem to make a difference).

With a number without a comma at the top, sorting is numerical, which does not work for numbers with a comma; see also m:Help:Table#Sorting.--Patrick 13:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Are minus signs just sorted as a symbol or is a negative value really recognized as one (column C4 here).

A negative number and a number in scientific notation are not recognized as number in determining the sorting mode, but if numeric sorting is used, these numbers are properly numerically sorted.--Patrick 13:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Any way to let wiki markup work in a sortable column heading?
• Table sorting will probably get used a lot, any further developments planned on it?

Thanks. --Van helsing 12:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not a developer, see Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2006-11-20/Technology_report for the people who wrote the patch. It looks like some improvements would be useful, we could ask them. --Patrick 13:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah. Misassumption of mine, than my thanks goes to the guys working at those tools for us. (You do realize you just threw away an excellent opportunity to show off... just kidding). Thanks for your answers. Pure alphabetic sort than for now, unless the first cell indicates numeric sorting is the way to go. --Van helsing 14:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Decimal

Your edit to decimal introduced a good clarification, but it made the overall text more confusing. If you read it, you will see that it starts with defining the separator. Then it talks about what happens before and after the separator. Then it talks about the typography of the separator. Then again comes back to what happens after the separator. That's too many ideas in one paragraph. I'd suggest following the usual conventions where there must not be more than one idea per paragraph. I edited the text to that end. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Supernumerary roots

I removed your last edit to the article Supernumerary roots. The original statement is accurate, but if it is confusing maybe there is a better way for us to reword it without using a list? Just let me know your ideas. In case it is still not clear: incisors have one root, canines have one root, all premolars have one root except for maxillary first premolars, maxillary first premolars have two roots (and thus maxillary second premolars have only one root), mandibular molars have two roots, and maxillary molars have three roots. If an extra root compared to the number expected appears on a tooth, it is considered a supernumerary root. - Dozenist talk 01:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I got confused. It may be better to avoid "except", also because we can then link to what applies instead of to the exception. --Patrick 22:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

--Patrick 02:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)==Segway Geeks==

Because of your outstanding contributions to Segway PT and/or Geek, you have been selected for the Wikipedia group Segway Geeks.

File:PTtopview.jpg

Geekler^{a Segway Geek} 21:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

--Patrick 01:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Japanese calendar templates

Thanks for all your help with Template:Nengo and friends. Once you pointed out what the problem was and made your changes to {{Nengo}}, I realized that I could split the Japanese code in {{Year in other calendars}} into a subtemplate and hoist up the calls to {{Nengo}} so that it is only done twice, once for the era of the current year, and once for the era of the previous year. I also made it possible to pass the era to {{Japanese year}} and {{Japanese year number}} to avoid calling {{Nengo}} at all in those templates when the caller already knows the appropriate era. This allowed a futher simplification of the "previous era" rendering for transitional years by allowing me to pass the previous era with the current year to {{Japanese year}} and {{Japanese year number}}.

I think that the template now has few enough parser calls to work in all of the intended contexts, but I experimented with the hoisting technique to minimize the calls to {{JD}} for the Chinese calendar portion. This yielded the ability to call {{User:Mike Dillon/Year in other calendars}} an extra two times, which can be seen at User:Mike Dillon/Sandbox2. Including multiple copies of Template:Year in other calendars is obviously not a goal in and of itself, but I was really using it as a convenient test of the parser call limits.

Do you think there is any value in changing {{Japanese era}} to work like {{Chinese calendar}} by using subpages instead of parser functions? The current version of {{Japanese era}} only handles less than half of the eras listed at Japanese era name, so I'm wondering when we'll hit the limit again if we start adding the older eras (i.e. before Joo (second)/1652). Mike Dillon 06:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The whole page 2006 can be included 3 times in one page, so there is room for more eras. The Japanese calendar info on Japan by itself can be included 9 times, that of China 8 times, that of the other calendars together, 230 times. It is not a matter of "subpages instead of parser functions", for Chinese many parser functions are in subpages, and they count for the restriction on the page that includes them. You could try reducing the number of switches by putting switch: {{{2}}} first in Template:Japanese era (backlinks edit).--Patrick 09:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

So is the restriction on the number of parser function that are called, or simply the raw number that are included? I had the impression that they actually had to be called to matter in the overall count. I also assumed that transcluding a subpage had nothing to do with this count. I guess I'm not clear on the actual technical restriction since I didn't think that the parser functions that were not called during a particular execution had any relevance at all. Also, I'm sure that the parser functions in the uncalled subpages couldn't matter because the name of the subpages included are based on other calculations that the extension does not know up front (i.e. unless the sexagenary cycle is 50, the "/50" subpages won't be called).

As for your suggestion for {{Japanese era}}, let's say we pass "Meireki" and "base" to {{Japanese era}}. Whether it's structured as it is currently or as you suggest, it would go through two switches, the top-level one (until reaching the "Meireki" case) and the one inside the Meireki case. If it used subpages (i.e. a "base", "kanji", and "label" subpage for each era), it would probably have only an #ifexist call at the top level and zero parser functions inside the era-specific subtemplates, just a short piece of text. Mike Dillon 15:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

{{#if:|{{:2006}}|not}} can only be called 3 times, just like {{:2006}}. That seems to indicate that the raw number counts.--Patrick 01:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have observed that when I remove some eras from Template:Japanese era (backlinks edit), it can be called more often, even though the removed eras do not apply for the specified year. So it seems the total number of switches counts, not the two it goes through.--Patrick 01:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

However, if a template name is constructed from a parameter or the content of a template, e.g. {{a{{{b}}}c}} or {{a{{b}}c}}, I agree that the contents of other possible templates with names of the form a{{{b}}}c or a{{b}}c cannot matter. However, since our parameter is the year number, this seems impractical for our case, we would need a template for each year.--Patrick 02:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

What I was thinking was that {{Nengo}} would remain basically as it is, except that the return values would always be just the article name for the era (not the piped version that there is for some of the eras currently). I just made some modifications to Nengo that reduced the number of parser functions per era to a single #ifexpr. It doesn't seem to have helped the example at User:Patrick/7, but I think it makes the code more readable, so it seems like a good change regardless.

The {{Japanese era}} template would still be passed the era name as the first parameter and either "base", "kanji", or "label" as the second parameter. It would do an #ifexist check for [[Template:Japanese era/{{{1}}}/{{{2}}}]] and if the subpage exists, transclude it to get at the simple text in the template. So, there would be three subtemplates per era, which isn't unmanagable in my opinion. The parser function count would be the number of functions in {{Nengo}} (i.e. one #ifexpr per era), plus the one #ifexist in {{Japanese era}}. I'm going to play around with making a working version along these principles at User:Mike Dillon/Japanese era. Mike Dillon 06:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you were right on Meta when you suggested that the cause of this problem is the max include size. I did some tests with Special:ExpandTemplates and was able to go way beyond the limits we're seeing on the pages themselves. The only difference I could see between that method of template execution and the real one is that it forces the max include size to 50MB with $options->setMaxIncludeSize(50000000). I believe it is currently set to 2MB in the main code path (per Wikipedia:Template limits).

I could not find any reason in the code why the call count would matter and the include size explanation would explain why regular template calls start going bad after the breakage happens on a particular page. Mike Dillon 23:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to be the include-size only.--Patrick 10:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Change to Common.css

Per recent discussions, the way in which Persondata is viewed by Wikipedia editors has changed. In order to continue viewing Persondata in Wikipedia articles, please edit your user CSS file to display table.persondata rather than table.metadata. More specific instructions can be found on the Persondata page. --ShakingSpirit^talk on behalf of Kaldari 01:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:Hk-map.PNG

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Meta's template breaking on en:wikipedia's help-page mirrors.

Hi Patrick, I learned from browsing around that you are quite involved with template and coding. Here's a problem I noticed that might need your advice.

Templates such as m:Template:For & m:Template:tt (from Meta) are broken on the pages that are mirrored at w:Help:Template & w:Help:Advanced_templates and probably at many other places too.

The first obvious reason is that the mirroring done by User:Uncle G's 'bot was not retaining the meta namespace for templates involved. The second reason is that I tried using meta's prefix to access meta's templates on those breaking places, and it doesn't work. For example:

• {{m:Template:for|call=t2|pc1=2=constant|abc|def|ghi}} gives: {{m:Template:for|call=t2|pc1=2=constant|abc|def|ghi}}

• {{m:Template:tt|t|efg}} gives: {{m:Template:tt|t|efg}}

Both of the above don't work as they should have on Meta (here & here), even with the "m:Template" namespace specified. Is cross-namespace template not possible in the current MediaWiki release? If so, then the templates that the mirrored pages used must be replicated on en.wikipedia, which is a hassle, not mentioning the name conflicts with the existing ones.

The broken templates on the mirrored pages rendered the tutorial confusing, if not useless. Is substituting the meta's codes with static codes on the mirrored pages a good workaround? Godric/^Talk 16:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Template inclusion across wikis is not possible. Since m:Help:Template and m:Help:Advanced templates use many templates, I recommend to remove copies on other wikis and just use the original on Meta. Other help pages use fewer templates. These are copied.--Patrick 09:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I've talked to User:Uncle_G the copying guy, he said the "master-mirror" idea was from other editors. Do you mind letting me know who else was the initiator or proponent of this idea? Then I can let them know or get some support to ask Uncle_G to abandon the copying procedure. Thanks. Godric/^Talk 18:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Note that I recommend against copying for the two template help pages only. Especially for Help:Variable and Help:Namespace copies are very useful, and for other help pages also due to the combination with project-specific content by means of the ph templates.

I think the idea of copying originated from User:Eloquence, he introduced the Help namespace in the software for this.

Note that also a set of simpler help pages in the public domain is being developed, see mw:Project:PD help, to be distributed with the software.--Patrick 03:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible improvement for Template:Dts

I saw that you copied {{Dts}} from m:Template:Dts. I saw your discussion with User talk:Van helsing about Help:Sorting. Check out my note on Help talk:Sorting about a possible improvement on the {{Dts}}. — MrDolomite | Talk 18:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Redirects to Category:Municipalities of the Netherlands

A long time ago you created a bunch of test redirects to Category:Municipalities of the Netherlands. Is there a point to these? If not, you might want to go ahead and delete them. --- RockMFR 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Done.--Patrick 12:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Message template on a page due to putting the message on an included page

There are like eight speedy tags on your userpage, what's up with that? Herostratus 06:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I had a test of template User:MrDolomite/Sandbox/Dts which got this tag, with this confusing result. Thanks.--Patrick 08:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Rounding

I don't have PHP to verify, but this example looks like it has the wrong sign.

• round(8.7352,3) gives -8.735.

Should be +8.735, correct?

Yes, thanks.--Patrick 00:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for your help with the template. I see what I was doing wrong now. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 09:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Aaron Thomas

An editor has nominated Aaron Thomas, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not"). Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aaron Thomas and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. Jayden54Bot 21:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorting

Do you know of a way I can specify a sort key or any other workarounds for sorting tables? - Peregrine Fisher 22:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see m:Help:Sorting: do alphabetic sorting using a sortkey in front which due to CSS is not displayed:

<span style="display:none">sortkey_with_separator</span>displayed_item

Patrick 00:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Very cool, thanks. - Peregrine Fisher 15:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey Invitation

Hi there, I am a research student from the National University of Singapore and I wish to invite you to do an online survey about Wikipedia. To compensate you for your time, I am offering a reward of USD$10, either to you or as a donation to the Wikimedia Foundation. For more information, please go to the research home page. Thank you. --WikiInquirer 22:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)^{talk to me}

Regarding template:H:title

Hello Patrick

Regarding Template:H:title. While investigating the possibility of creating a similar template without the underlining I discovered that you had indeed originally created this template without the text decoration and it was only added later on.

Could it be possible for you to modify the template, perhaps with a parameter, to allow using it without the bottom border? I would do this myself but I have no idea how (User:Angr tells me it's possible). Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

<span title="{{{1}}}">{{{2}}}</span> gives {{{2}}}. You may as well create a separate template.--Patrick 01:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of exactly how the template works, but Angr and I felt that creating the exact same template but without the decoration would be redundant.

If I do figure out how to do it myself (the meta page on template parameters is incomprehensible, but I can understand the ParserFunctions) do I have your blessing to go ahead and change it?

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I added the optional parameter "dotted" with default "yes", which can be given the value "no", although I wonder why one would not want the dots. If there is no indication of extra info as title, you can only find it by chance.--Patrick 10:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The hover text will be included in most italics examples and there'll be note to this effect at the top of the article.

Thank you. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 14:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

WIFI

I have added a "{{prod}}" template to the article WIFI, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Zazzer 22:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the PROD, reason given was "No radio station of sort running" but this google search shows just the opposite. -- Whereizben - Chat with me - My Contributions 22:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

AGREE with removal of PROD. However, if this article doesn't get out of stub-class soon, it may be renominated for that reason. --Lexein 13:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

300

Talk:300 (film)#Unnecessary_detail. —Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 00:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Cascading protection

You seem to misunderstand cascading protection. It applies also to existing transcluded pages, see e.g. [5].--Patrick 12:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand the {{protected title}} template. Again, it does not transclude existent pages. —David Levy 12:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It does, see Wikipedia:Protected titles/Today's featured article A. Or do you mean it is not the intention?--Patrick 13:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

1. Where are you seeing transclusion? Those are ordinary links.

2. I'm baffled as to why those templates are protected. This must be a bug or a new change to the cascading protection feature. As you can see, none of those templates are transcluded on the page, so this should not be happening. I'm going to have to look into this. —David Levy 13:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the above misunderstanding. It never occurred to me that the conditional syntax could cause MediaWiki to treat these links as transclusions without actually transcluding anything.

Am I correct in assuming that you're experimenting with a possible workaround? —David Levy 17:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

At first I had not looked in detail at the template, which caused confusion. Yes, I am trying out some things.--Patrick 17:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your assistance! —David Levy 17:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again, Patrick! Your solution is very clever. —David Levy 18:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Template talk:Sort

Centralized discussion for all issues surrounding sortkeys for wikitables created here: Template talk:Sort. Your input is appreciated. ~ trialsanderrors 09:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Culture of Thailand

Hi,

I noticed you replaced the wikilink on the Touch page with a more complicated template. It appears to link directly to a section in the Thai page. As a favour, could you give me a link to the WP: page that explains it? It looks neat and handy, but I have no idea where or how to start looking for it.

Thanks,

WLU 11:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

For an explanation see Template talk:H:ml. It is as far as I know not yet listed and explained in the WP namespace. It allows "what links here" for sections [6].--Patrick 11:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

RE: Asia

Hello. Categorisation by region is also useful -- if you're able to accommodate both sortation and organisation, great! If not, though, there's no reason to cast off one utility at the expense of another. Corticopia 16:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorting code

Hi Patrick. I'm tempted to revert this addition to monobook.js. It seems like something which can just as easily be fixed in wikibits.js. The last thing we need is more unmaintained code in common.js which is likely to cause conflicts in the future. —Ruud 23:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

If you can change it in wikibits.js, please do. The change on MediaWiki:Common.js is only temporary until the bug in wikibits.js is fixed. There are already hundreds of template calls of Template:nts (backlinks edit) to work around the bug and that seems only the beginning if the bug is neither fixed in wikibits.js nor in MediaWiki:Common.js.--Patrick 00:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If you file a bugreport at http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org and provide the code or even create a patch, I'm sure the developers will commit it quickly. I see little reason to have a bug fix in the mean time, but could you at least document it like the other functions and list your self as a maintainer (and of course actually maintain the bug fix, which will mean you will have to check if there aren't any related or unrelated changes to wikibits.js in the future will cause things to break, but no one else will likely connect to your bug fix.) —Ruud 00:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Template:Earth orbits

Thank-you for creating Template:Earth orbits. Believe it or not I was looking for just this information only a short while ago. Finding it newly-minted on Wikipedia was a great surprise! Sdsds 22:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I am glad you like it. I have expanded it, and put more accurate figures.--Patrick 10:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Bridge to Terabithia (2007 film)

Please read WP:CITE and WP:OR. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 23:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

1. I think that you're confusing me with one of your school friends. Leave silly comments about being in love with a particular version to them.
2. What exactly do you think that "original research" means, now that you've read about it? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Infobox musical artist

Hi, your recent change to Template:Infobox musical artist has a major problem: the default image size is supposed to be 220px, not 300. 300 is the default height used only in the case when the landscape option is selected. You should be able to confirm this by studying the code more closely. An excellent approach (and thanks for the suggestion), but an oversight in the implementation. Xtifr _tälk 08:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It is changed to 300 before applying min, so it becomes 220 anyway.--Patrick 09:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Oops, sorry for the confusion. Thanks, Xtifr _tälk 02:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Watch List

Hi. You replied to my Watch List posting on the Village Pump page. You said that a certain Section of an article can be separated from the entire main article and "watch listed" separately. I think you called it "transcluded." How do I do this? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 01:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC))

It means that you include it like a template, see Composite_pages. This is how it is technically possible, but except in special cases policy tends to disallow it on the English Wikipedia.--Patrick 05:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the info. (JosephASpadaro 14:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC))

Counting transitive relations

Hi Patrick. What is your source for the various counts of transitive relations that you added to transitive relation? Paul August ☎ 17:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The number 171 is given in [7], and I used for example strict weak ordering. Summing up the relations can be considered working out an example to clarify the various relation types.--Patrick 00:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

nonempty set

I saw that you created this article. You might consider merging it into the empty set article, since the two are so intimately connected. CMummert · talk 16:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not create it. I agree that they can be merged.--Patrick 17:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that; I didn't look at the history, and since it wasn't on my watchlist I assumed it was newly created. CMummert · talk 17:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Plus and minus signs

Hi Patrick. I removed the text you added to Plus and minus signs since I don't think -9^2 ever evaluates to 81, except perhaps hypothetically. Do you have any references for a programming language or convention outside programming proper where the expression above would evaluate to 81? You can reply here. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 15:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I had APL in mind but it applies also in Excel. I revised my remark and split it up.--Patrick 00:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree it was better to move that text about the order of operations from the page on plus and minus and to make it explicit what language you meant. Now, I have one more issue with your edit there. You use the "hyphen-minus" term before it was defined. Could you just call it "minus" instead, as throughout the article? Because the only place in which there is a distinction between "hyphen" and "minus" is when it comes to typography. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 01:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have split up the section, as it confusingly mixed two subjects.--Patrick 01:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! It is clear now. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Relation articles

Hi Patrick. I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Relations on a set of three elements about the relation articles. Your view on why they are useful is welcome. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Patrick. I decided to nominate these pages for deletion as unencyclopedic. The deletion debate is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Relations on a set of four elements. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Josh hutcherson 1171816103.jpg

Hello, Patrick. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Josh hutcherson 1171816103.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Patrick/Bridge to Terabithia. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 15:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

wikitable sortable

Patrick,

What an awesome idea, adding wikitable sortable to casts for movies, etc. Did you come up with this? I have been adding casts and roles all over the place, often with some effort (see my work with Kill Bill). But the sortable feature is terrific. Cheers!--RobNS 01:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I am glad you like it. I add "sortable" to all tables for which it is suitable. It is also possible to make the table sortable by last name, but that requires for each name a call of Template:sortname (backlinks edit).--Patrick 06:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Style note

Hi Patrick. I have just a small style remark. In math notation, variables should be italic, so ''n'' instead of simply n, etc. I am sure you know about this, but I thought I'd remind you. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 15:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know [8], I try to remember.--Patrick 21:34, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Disappointment

I've nominated Disappointment, an article you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but in this particular case I do not feel that Disappointment satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion; I have explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Disappointment and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Disappointment during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. GDonato (talk) 21:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Euro

Template:Euro has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 21:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello

I saw your edits on Supremum, which I made a small edit today. I am impressed by your HUGE number of edits. I was going to ask if your are interested in being an administrator but I found out you are already one! You are quite modest since you don't mention it in your user page.

I edit mostly about articles related to Singapore. However, I have decided that I am going to try to edit a little bit in every field that I can think of (assuming that I can think of something intelligent to edit). I am not very good in maths but I will try to think of a few more things to edit. The same for law, engineering, etc.VK35 23:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Happy editing!--Patrick 00:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

collapsable + sortable table

Hi. Thanks for adding this but I'm wondering if there's a way to get the "[hide]/[show]" control to appear to the right of the complete table outside of any cell. Now, it stays in the first header cell, making the cell taller when the "[show]" control appears above the cell's text. Also, is there a way to make the table hidden by default (except the header cells, of course)? ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 11:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see Wikipedia:NavFrame#Auto-collapsing_tables.--Patrick 12:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The control is still inside the cell... and the "sortable" command no longer does anything or "collapsable". :/ You also changed the instructions and omitted "sortable" completely. :o OK, I was spelling "collapsible" wrong (as "collapsable")--so it collapses once again but the hide/show control is still in the first header cell and still moves above that cell's text. And now the sorting is screwed up again...even with DD MMM YY format. :( ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 04:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

See the new section Wikipedia:NavFrame#Sortable_collapsible_tables. If the whole table is in a collapsible area the hide/show control is not in the header cell but above the whole table. It does not seem possible to put it to the right of the table. Also, with this method the initial state is "show" with link "hide", except when there are more than two of these on a page. Unfortunately it does not seem possible to control the initial state.

Sorting dates seems to work fine:

Dates

07 Apr 2007
16 Apr 2007
18 Mar 2007
27 Mar 2007
20 Aug 2006
22 Jul 2006

Patrick 08:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The sorting and hide/show control behavior seems exactly the same to me. Try the table at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Paranormal#Paranormal_Relevant_Deletion_History and the sorting screws up and the hide/show control remains in the first header cell (and, annoyingly, above the "Article" text when the table is hidden). 2006 and 2007 dates will intermix. ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 16:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I moved hide/show out of the table; see also the new page m:Help:Collapsing.

Months have to be 3-letter abbreviations, dates < 10 require a leading zero. If you want more flexibility, use Template:dts (backlinks edit).--Patrick 20:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, why? Non-date single-digit cells can sort fine without needing a leading 0 so why not dates too? That seems odd... As for having to nest the table, that seems lame too. Besides, the hide/show control still appears above the outer table's first header cell--just as it does on a single table's first header cell so all you did was lessen, not fix, the problem... ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 09:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

(1) This is due to the way it has been programmed: 29 May 2007 is alphabetically sorted as 20070529, 3 May 2007 as 2007053. Numerical sorting does not need to be converted to alphabetical sorting because JavaScript knows that 9 < 10.

Well, surely it can be programmed better so date sorting can know 9 < 10 too? I note Windows Explorer and other file managers don't have this problem... ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 10:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

(2) Putting hide/show to the right of the table, on the same level as the header, currently does not seem possible.

Patrick 09:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, why not? I even tried forcing the outer table header to not wrap (style="white-space:nowrap") but then the "show" control overlapped the text and couldn't be clicked at all. Then I tried adding white space at the end of the header text (to push the control out more with <span style="white-space:pre"> </span>) but that didn't work either. :/ ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 10:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

These things can most likely be programmed. It requires that someone is capable and willing to do it. In addition, for a change of the MediaWiki software in general it requires that the developers accept it (this is sometimes slow even for a small useful change), or for a change in e.g. MediaWiki:Common.js, it requires that the Wikipedia community accepts it. I made a small change in that page for sorting, but for more and larger changes there can be problems of maintainability. For example, if the MediaWiki software changes, MediaWiki:Common.js may have to be changed too.--Patrick 10:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

location maps

Would you consider dual licensing your edits to {{location map}} and related template under the cc-by 2.5? This way I could use them on the english wikinews. Happy editing. Bawolff 00:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay.--Patrick 00:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)