Penguins53

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Kennedy Bakircioglu

Instead of continually reverting me, please contribute to the discussion I have just started on the article's talk page. Thanks. Oh, and per WP:BRD, you should leave the article in its original state until the discussion resolves itself. – PeeJay 20:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sorry. Kennedy is an ethnic Assyrian. Just became he was born in Turkey does not make him ethnically Turkish, aka of "Turkish descent." He has never stated that he is of Turkish descent; in fact, he has stated that he is Assyrian -- nothing else, as are most Assyrians.

We're not talking about ethnicity, we're talking about nationality. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Kennedy's parents were born as citizens of Turkey, yes? Hence, Kennedy is of Turkish descent by nationality. He can also be of Assyrian descent by ethnicity, no one is disputing that, but he is definitely of Turkish descent unless you have a source that says his father was never a citizen of Turkey. – PeeJay 03:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

But of "X" descent refers to ethnicity, not nationality.

Not necessarily. – PeeJay 12:21, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, actually, it does -- descent indicates that you are of an ethnic group. I do not say I am of British descent if I am an Arab living in England, for instance. So please, can we change this back to the right and get rid of the "of Turkish descent."

If you were an Arab (let's say Saudi Arabia, for argument's sake) living in England, of course you would not be of British descent. However, if you took British citizenship, your children could be said to be British people of Saudi descent. Therefore, Kennedy Bakircioglu is a Swedish person of Turkish descent, since his father was a citizen of Turkey. – PeeJay 13:10, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

Well, being "pretty sure" doesn't quite cut it. – PeeJay 19:12, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I am positive that is an incorrect way to categorize descent.

Well, I disagree, so it looks like we're going to need a neutral third party to sort this out for us. – PeeJay 21:08, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

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Assyrian and Syriac

Please refrain from editing articles for the sole purpose of replacing Syriac with Assyrian. Both names are interchangeable and correct, so learn to accept the status quo.--Kathovo talk 14:40, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Seconded; at least some mention of the controversy would be in order. Please see Sebastian Brock's An Introduction to Syriac Studies, p. 27. Drabkikker (talk) 19:26, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

@Drabkikker: Look at @Penguins53 contribution log, that is all he has been doing for the last 6 years.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Penguins53 Sr 76 (talk) 13:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

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January 2014

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• Ottoman Army, but was later released. During the war he stayed in Mardin, where he witnessed the [[Assyrian Genocide], which he describes in his book ''The Utmost of Christian Calamities''.<ref

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What is your rationale

for adding Syrian names to numerous biblical figures? Dougweller (talk) 19:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, for one the Assyrian people, who speak Syriac (Aramaic), heavily -- and I mean heavily -- Biblical figures' names. Also, the Syriac (Aramaic) names were widely used in early Christian communities of the Middle East. The Assyrian people continue to use them. I didn't add them for a bad reason; I think wikipedia could be of great use for this.

This is twaddle. None of the Syriac patriarchs that you've meddled with were either Assyrian or Turkish. Please desist from this ridiculous behaviour. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

This is what concerned me. There's a tendency to add different language names to articles when they aren't directly relevant. Dougweller (talk) 21:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok: 1. I never said they were Turkish. I made a category for Assyrian/Syriac ethnicity writers that were born in/lived in the area corresponding to modern-day Turkey.

@Doug, what you're saying is something different. I added Syriac Biblical names because many of the Hebrew names came from Aramaic and are both historically and religiously significant.

The best that can be said for this misguided effort is that it confuses multiple time periods. I might read as "Writers who wrote in the Syriac language who were from areas that are now in Turkey". Quite a lengthy title. And probably too obscure. Stop the current activities until agreement is reached on this point. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:52, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

If you click the category page, you'll see that it does not say that.

January 2014

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Thomas the Apostle. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been reverted or removed.

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Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive, until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively could result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Jerm729 (talk) 23:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Jerm729 (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

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Your recent editing history at Thomas the Apostle shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

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Talkback

Hello, Penguins53. You have new messages at Iryna Harpy's talk page.
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Category:Assyrian Turkish writers

Category:Assyrian Turkish writers, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. ES&L 11:50, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

A new proposal

A new proposal has been placed at: ANI. -- ♣Jerm♣729 18:02, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

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syrian

the ethnicity of syrians is debated, and the only way to stand in the face of people who claim that 90% of syrians are arabs is using genetic studies, please read French people , Lebanese people and many other articles about people and you will find the genetic section much bigger than the syrian one--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 04:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

the page currently is under debate and genes are the strongest arguments, once this debate is over the genetic information's will be removed from the ethnogenises section and will only be in the genetic section--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 04:07, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Then why don't you make a sandbox page for now and refrain from adding tons of information and mass edits.

as i told you, genetics are mentioned in like tow sentences outside the genetic section, and they are needed, their is no mass edits in the article, its one of the smallest articles about modern peoples, all the new edits are justified, if you want to know how did the syrian people emerged then you gotta read the ethnogenises section and if you want proof that they are in fact connected to the old inhabitants of syria then you gotta read the genetic section, as i said all other articles have a huge section on genetics and the syrian one is no different, every thing is supported by refrences --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 04:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

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Syriac/Assyrian

I only use "Syriac" myself, because "Assyrian" is ambiguous, and most people would think it means the people of ancient Assyria. But that's an argument for moving the main article, and edit wars on peripheral articles aren't going to help. — kwami (talk) 01:44, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

If those people are misinformed, by clicking the link to Assyrians they will correct their ignorance -- after all, isn't that what wikipedia is about?

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July 2014

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Christianity in the Middle East

OK. I got it. Do not worry about it. But you have to acknowledge that many of the Christians (excluding Greek Orthodox and Melkite) within Syria (excluding the North-East Syria-Hasake area) are a mix of Neo-Aramaic speaking Syriacs + Arameans (originally speakers of the almost extinct Western Aramaic language) + Ghassanid Arab Christian tribes, who are largely Arabic-speaking Christians.

And the case in Lebanon (excluding Greek Orthodox and Melkite) are a mix of Phoenicians + Neo-Aramaic speaking Arameans (originally speakers of the almost extinct Western Aramaic language) + Ghassanid Arab Christian tribes, who are largely Arabic-speaking Christians.

Hopefully we got each others point. MaronitePride (talk) 04:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

You asked me: "Would you know what percent of Maronites identify as Phoenician? I go to a Maronite church and almost all identify as Arabs, then as Lebanese." Well, it is difficult to say but usually the Maronites that have more Right-wing political views will identify as Phoenician Lebanese and usually call the Arabic dialect within Lebanon to be Lebanese language, completely different from the other Arabic dialects (ex. usually Falangist fractions). But if we look at the issue from unbiased view point, all present day Lebanese people, including Maronites and all Lebanese Christians (Greek Orthodox and Melkite), Shia Muslims, Sunni Muslims, and Lebanese Druze, are more or less direct descendants of the historical Phoenicians. Plus many of the Syrian people within the Syrian Mediterranean coast and the Palestinians close to the Lebanese border, also possible many of the present day Greek Cypriots, Maltese, Sicilians, Tunisians and Spanish have some blood connection to the Phoenicians. (Many Lebanese, regardless of religion affiliation are mistaken to be Italian, Spanish or Greek)

But at the same time it is normal that many of the Maronites "identify as Arabs, then as Lebanese." As I mentioned in my previous post, most of the Lebanese Christians (including the Maronites) are a mixture of Phoenicians + Arameans + Ghassanid Arab Christian tribes. (Possibly, the Greek Orthodox and Melkites are a mixture of Phoenicians + Arameans + Ghassanid Arab Christian tribes + possibly Greek blood.) Also, many prominent Maronites are Arab Muslim converts to Maronite Christianity over the centuries. (ex. The prominent Maronite Chehab family traced their lineage to the Banu Makhzum of the ancient Quraysh tribe from Mecca.) And as a result the Arabic language was easily adopted as a first language, the Syriac was left only for religious purposes. (I am not very knowledgeable about the Assyrians. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the Assyrians, in contrast to the Maronites, have no Arab blood at all and as a result managed to keep and preserve the Syriac (Aramaic) language over the centuries.)

"Also, do you know what the first ethnic group to convert to Christianity was?" As a Lebanese Maronite, I would like to think and say the Phoenicians (present day Lebanese people) but I think that the highest possibility is that the first ethnic group/people to convert to Christianity are the people, who lived within Palestine. (The first state, as far as I know, to officially convert to Christianity was Armenia.)

It went my explanation too long, but hopefully it was useful.

MaronitePride (talk) 02:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

You said: "Also, although Palestinian Christians were the first Christians - I don't know why, but I do not think they continue to practice those old Christian traditions."

If you mean Palestinian Catholic Christians or Palestinian Protestant Christians, you are correct since they added many Western European new Christians traditions and possible removed some old Christian traditions. But the practice of the Palestinian Orthodox Christians are for sure directly connected to those old Christian traditions from 2000+ years and still retained in practice by them. (By the way our Maronite Church is initially (historically) an offshoot of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch and we see ourselves to follow those old Christian traditions coming via the oldest Greek Orthodox Church. Yes, then we became connected over the centuries through the Crusaders with the Catholics and today we see ourselves to be Catholics but with many intertwined old Greek Orthodox Christian traditions.) Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the Assyrians from the Church of the East have also a lot of pre-Christian traditions coming from the old Assyrian and Zoroastrian religions.

Take care. MaronitePride (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

You said: "I think Middle Eastern Christians should unite -- and the first step to unity is learning Aramaic, I believe." Possibly, but Aramaic is very close to Arabic (both Semitic languages) and will be very difficult to learn very similar languages. (ex. I speak French, as every Lebanese, but have difficulties to learn proper Italian or even Spanish because of the similarities). Let's look differently even today languages like Arabic (most of the Middle Eastern Christians live within the Arab world: Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Sudan), possible the use of French and English create unity at the present time. And within the Middle Eastern Christian diaspora the situation is the same the three languages (Arabic, French, English) play a major role for unity.

Take care again. MaronitePride (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

"Well, what exactly do you mean by Palestinian Orthodox? What church is it in which these very primitive and ancient Christian traditions have been preserved in?"

Like Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem. Also the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch (Maronite Church is initially (historically) an offshoot of that Church).

"Yes, the Church of the East I would say has a lot of ancient Assyrian and Jewish roots." The whole Christianity, regardless of sect has Jewish roots, since Christianity is based on Judaism but not many people accept this reality. (Even Islam is based on Judaism and no one accepts this too). But I wanted to know if the Assyrians from the Church of the East still have pre-Christian traditions coming from the old Zoroastrian religion.

"Regarding Aramaic, I disagree. I speak Aramaic and picked up Hebrew -- reading and writing -- in a matter of five months." Good for you. Congratulation. But for us, I think it will be very difficult. Unfortunately, I do not see many similarities between Lebanese Arabic (or Literary Arabic) and Hebrew to help that much, or maybe I am not very well aware about the other Semitic languages since as every Maronite (and most Lebanese), I am more interested in Western languages.

"I would love to see efforts of a (re?)unification of Middle Eastern Christianity, and the first step I believe is language. Why doesn't Lebanon fund a program to teach Aramaic to Christians, or to be more specific, Maronites?" Unfortunately, it is too late for learning such a language. The problem is that the place of Aramaic was always seen as just a language of the religious books, churches and not useful beyond that. Also, currently, the young generation, and I am part of it, is interested into languages that are more useful within the present day global world, both for business, travel, and immigration. (btw it is within our Lebanese nature since we are all proud descendants of the Phoenicians to look always for business and travel opportunities all over the world). Plus, the area around Lebanon is getting day by day too dangerous and many people think more about the future in diaspora (visas, languages like English, French, Spanish) and less about learning a religious language not really useful beyond religion. (Similar situation within the Jewish diaspora, most of them do not bother knowing Hebrew beyond some words needed for religious rituals like ex. Bar Mitzvah or marriage. English is more dominant within the Jewish diaspora than Hebrew). Also, Lebanon is and always was extremely diverse in terms of religions and even our current linguistic unity through our Lebanese Arabic did not help for peaceful coexistence, therefore, I could not imagine what would happen if the Lebanese government adds linguistic differences on top of the religious differences. I guess it would become the worst place to life in the whole world.

MaronitePride (talk) 20:47, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

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Nomination of Anti-Assyrian sentiment for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Anti-Assyrian sentiment is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Category:Assyrian athletes

Category:Assyrian athletes, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. SFB 19:25, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

August 2014

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I live in USA. How can I buy the DVD "the last Assyrians"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.197.7.155 (talk) 09:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

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Anti-Assyrian Sentiment

Re your question on my talk page - a copy of the deleted article is here http://www.wikigrain.org/?req=Anti-Assyrian+sentiment Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:40, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

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• There was complete toleration of Christians (mostly ethnic [[Assyrian people|Assyrians]] in this era and several held governmental posts. In the

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• there are periods of heat waves and many days with temperatures above {{convert|25|°C|°F|abbr=on}}+). Winters are cold, though sometimes milder with temperatures ranging from {{convert|-3|to|1|C|F}},

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Misrepresentation of source

Your source, the Jewish Virtual Library, did not say that "many modern-day Assyrian families from northern Iraq were, in fact, originally Jewish, and were forced to convert to Christianity a few hundred years ago." It says "An ancient popular tradition states that among the Assyrians of northern Iraq there were many families of Jewish origin and these were forcibly converted to Christianity more than 500 years ago." which is very different. It really doesn't meet WP:RS anyway I think, but so long as it's only being used to suggest a tradition I'll leave it alone now that I've rewritten your edit. Dougweller (talk) 21:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry, Doug, if I misrepresented it. I did not mean to. What exactly is the difference between mine and JVL? Is it because I did not say "ancient popular tradition?"

Exactly - and it should have been attributed as I've done. There has been concern expressed about JVL as a source for some time which you can see if you search WP:RSN. Dougweller (talk) 08:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, Doug. I'll take a look into that.

Mark Arabo

Hello Penguins53. I have reverted your good faith edit here [1] as you changed the wikilink for "Chaldean Catholic family" to direct to Assyrian people which I don't think was your intention. Please review your edits and let me know if you feel this was in error. Thank you, Yamaguchi先生 17:07, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I wanted to put a more clarified definition. "Chaldean" is included under the Assyrian page.

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Member 81.111.12.105

Hello, this member 81.111.12.105 has change every Assyrian article on Wikipedia not only "Assyrian people" he is an aramaen and want to seperate assyrians from syriacs, he needs to be blocked, its clear vandalism --Suryoye85 (talk) 14:56, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

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December 2014

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You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 week for edit-warring under false claims of "vandalism" at Ankawa. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.  Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:58, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Answer

""Arameans" and "Assyrians" are both on the "Assyrian people" page; therefore, not only is it superfluous, but it is also erroneous to have both listed on the page -- they are one people."

It is your way of seeing it. Many Maronites identify as Arameans within Israel based on the long history of Biblical area of Aram, for example. According to the Israeli government, they are two different groups. See Arameans in Israel and Assyrians in Israel MaronitePride (talk) 22:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry, but you are incorrect. The "Assyrians in Israel" page was a page that was made BEFORE the "Arameans in Israel" page. The "Assyrians in Israel" page was a page that covered "Arameans," "Chaldeans," and "Assyrians" in Israel, just like the current "Assyrian people" page covers all the names. The "Arameans in Israel" page was made relatively recently, when the Israeli government decided to recognize "Arameans" as an ethnic group. "Assyrians" are not recognized as an ethnic group in Israel, but the "Assyrians in Israel" page referred to the "Assyrian," "Chaldean," and "Aramean" peoples. The Israeli government does NOT consider them two different groups; "Assyrians" are not recognized in Israel and now are recognized as "Arameans."

"The Israeli government does NOT consider them two different groups; "Assyrians" are not recognized in Israel and now are recognized as "Arameans." Sorry but you are incorrect in this regard. The Maronites in Israel (plus possibly others) consider themselves Arameans and requested for years the Israeli government to recognize them as Aramaeans and not Arabs, based on historical grounds going back to Biblical Aram region, which is most of present day Republic of Syria. Let's respect the self identification of these people. (Of course as we discussed similar issue with you before, I and most of the Maronites that I know accept the reality that we Maronites have primarily Phoenician descent mixed with Aramean and Ghassanid Arab blood lineage.) MaronitePride (talk) 00:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

"The page "Arameans in Israel" should be merged with the "Assyrians in Israel. "Aramean identity" should be a section on the "Assyrians in Israel page."" It should be wrong since according to the Christian people in Israel and the government of Israel, they are two different things and Arameans in Israel is the new ethnic affiliation instead of Arab citizens of Israel.

"It is an error to state that the two are separate on the "Islam in Syria" page." Also, within Syria there is a distinction between Assyrians (within northeast Syria - Al Hasaka governate) and the rest of the territory of Syria, where most of the Christians (except Greek Orthodox Christians) identify as Arameans (ancient Biblical Aram coincide with the same territory within the radius of Haleb governate). That is why I think the distinction is needed to represent the present day situation within Syria. MaronitePride (talk) 02:03, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

"Addendum: It must be stated that, today, most Christians in Syria who identify as "Arameans" are Arabic-speaking and almost all from the Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic Churches." It sounds good to me. Cheers. MaronitePride (talk) 19:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

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Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 02:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

February 2015

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 2 weeks for disruptive editing at Assyrian people. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.  Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Assyrian singers

On the page Assyrian people you are right, but you can not deny that there are Aramean singers on that page. you could remove the Aramean singers or keep it Aramean/Assyrian singers think before you say something,And I know you are "Assyrian"

Shlama — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caliph Ibrahim (talk • contribs) 08:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

A question

Hello Penguins53!

I have a question as I think you're better informed about Assyrian history than me; could you add the article link of the Assyrian-participate battles in and around Urmia during WWI to the WWI subsection on the Assyrians page? I thought it was the Persian Campaign, but I'm not sure.

Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 13:05, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

info regarding reverting

ArameaWiki (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)hello penguins53,

  please plain why you reverted my editingArameaWiki (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Eist

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caliph Ibrahim (talk • contribs) 10:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Category:Armenian American art collectors has been nominated for splitting

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