Wikipedia

Wikipedia:ANI vs. WMF community response

Community response to the WMF over ANI

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In response to the the Wikimedia Foundation's intent to disclose, under seal, the private information of several users to the Delhi High Court in the ongoing ANI v. Wikimedia legal case, should the community as a whole respond? If so, what course of action should be taken?

For context on this discussion, please see the proceeding sections. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General discussion

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  • I should note that we may also wish to consider whether we should direct any response partly or wholly towards the the Delhi High Court, since I think we can agree that the Court is ultimately the one putting us in this situation. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My preference would be not to, if only on editor safety grounds. We have no influence over what the court does, we should have some influence over the Foundation's actions (within the bounds of what relevant laws permit of course). Espresso Addict (talk) 04:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, but in meeting Eek's point, I think we can at a minimum authorize and encourage the WMF to share the statement with the court. Or even consider drafting a separate one which includes an explanation of how this community feels about our role in reporting as a tertiary source (not a primary or even secondary one) and the measures we take to maintain that firewall, since the court seems fundamentally confused as to some of the basics of our operational structure. SnowRise let's rap 07:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    whether we should direct any response partly or wholly towards the the Delhi High Court. I think directly addressing the court would be unwise and could really mess up the case. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with this course of action, but I think it would be hard to get the tone right... Our primary goal IMO would be to explain how wikipedia works, not to sway the court towards a particular decision. We want to make the job easier for the judges and it is genuinely very hard for those outside wikipedia to understand how it works even if it seems obvious to all of us. We certainly don't want to be lecturing the court or making legal arguments, but I think there is perhaps room in there for productive communication. I would also on a technical level disagree that it is the court which is putting us in this situation, its ANI which put us in this situation and the court is proceeding in what is in its own tradition a neutral and proper way. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not quite sure how aware the Court understands Wikipedia as well. To me, Wikipedia is more like a search engine that merges all the results together into a series of paragraphs. They should be made aware that Wikipedia only sources from content that exists already on other sites: If there is no content, the chances of it being on Wikipedia practically none.

    I wonder how ANI have worded how they attempted to "remove" the allegedly controversial content. I assume they didn't flag themselves as such, which breaches WP:COI, and also that they have made zero attempt at a "Hey, this information sounds very critical of us and we think it sounds biased, is it possible to refactor this in some way?" before deciding to go from 1-100 by suing Wikipedia. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 22:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The judges have zero knowledge about Wikipedia's workings [1]. It's ridiculous how WMF even bothered to pay heed to this frivolous lawsuit in an unfree country. Ratnahastin (talk) 00:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The Court is certainly not neutral, Delhi high court is known for ruling in favour of BJP government (which also backs ANI). All of this happened only because ANI lost an edit war to push their POV on the page back in April. The editors implicated in the case have likely never authored anything on article, their only fault was reverting COI IPs trying to whitewash. Ratnahastin (talk) 00:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are free to disagree but I stand behind my statement. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should we send an open letter?

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The open letter has been created and is collecting signatures. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If so, what should the letter say?

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  • I don't think the exact text is that important as long as we convey community dismay at the prospect of handing over private data to the Indian court. Brevity and timeliness are key. Espresso Addict (talk) 03:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we should raise the concern about the court's order to disclose editors' personal information, which will cause a chilling effect, and suggest that the WMF decline the request. The root problem lies with the court rather than the WMF. --SCP-2000 04:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with both of the above. There are a few concerning issues at play here, but the top one is that the court is ordering the WMF to turn over private information. We can also reiterate that this is part of an attempt to censor Wikipedia's content and that giving in will only encourage more people to do this—endangering further editors and effectively compromising editorial independence on Wikipedia. The WikiMedia Foundation must refuse to willingly put these editors in harm's way, even if it means retaliation from the Indian government by blocking Wikipedia. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The court is also clearly acting as an instrument of the Indian state [2], we cannot expect it to make an independent and impartial ruling. Ratnahastin (talk) 04:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've drafted something (I left it on my usertalk for now, not wishing to dump another long wall of text here, but would be curious to hear what people think). IMO an ideal statement makes clear that we view this as an existential threat, and not just a matter of protecting these three users. It also shouldn't be specific to the ANI case (or specific to India) but rather a broader statement of principles. It also makes some clear asks of the WMF that aren't just "do this thing right now or else". The WMF does some of what I'm asking for already, but especially given democratic backsliding trends around the world, this is an important enough matter both domestically and internationally that it's worth forming a dedicated team. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:07, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Generally agree with the sentiments; however it's a bit purple passageish in places, and I think we should avoid at this point asking for something specific beyond the immediate threat because we are going to have trouble getting signatures quickly enough to support anything complex. I'd use "well-being and safety" in the action bullet. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "it's worth forming a dedicated team" WMF already has a Human Rights Team, which supports those under threat for their participation in Wikimedia projects. Their job already includes "preserving the pseudonymity or anonymity of contributors". SCP-2000 05:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Rhodo, let me say first that I think this is an excellent summary of community will as I understand it from the foregoing discussion, and a high quality piece of writing. Thank you for taking such a necessary and proactive step, under suboptimal conditions. I would be satisfied to adopt the majority of your wording as-is for the core of a response. I will echo the previous two comments in a couple of small areas: I don't think the calling for a new team or any other largescale organizational development is the right fit for this immediate situation, and as noted, such teams as at least somewhat match your description do exist in various forms in the WMF aparatus. But more principally than that, I think our observations and the courses of action we urge should be a little more pointed and near-term.
    On the topic of how much a statement should speak the specifics of the Indian case, I am torn in multiple directions. On the one hand, we cannot entirely dismiss that the more we engage that specific topic, the more complicated the WMF's position, and we should be working to find for them a path of least resistance to the right outcome here. But the critical part of that priority is the right outcome, and I think any formal statement in these circumstances might require some direct engagement with the WMF's reported disclosure plans and our specific objections to them. Then again, there may be communications from the WMF in the next couple of days that will satisfy that at least the community's position has been received, loud and clear. In that case, a more indirect, generalized approach may be more appropriate. Either way, I really do think you captured the mood of the room so far, and kept the tone rooted in our common aspirations with the WMF, rather than recriminations and uncompromising demands. SnowRise let's rap 07:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Generally agree with the points above. The three paragraph preamble seems fairly long, and like Espresso Addict said, it should be brief if possible. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 08:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I suggest Espresso Addict, who seems familiar with procedures, should draft a short open letter pointing to these discussions and simply expressing strong concern that the WMF apparently intends to reveal the identity of certain editors of the Asian News International article to an Indian court. WMF should be urged not to provide any details liable to reveal the personal identity of the editors concerned, particularly that of an Indian who has contributed in good faith and now feels personally threatened.--Ipigott (talk) 09:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Eh, thanks for the compliment but I am in no way familiar with procedures of writing to the WMF! What you've just written sounds to the point. Espresso Addict (talk) 09:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry for the mix-up but I share EA's concerns and support for an open letter to the WMF. I am not too happy about addressing the Dehli court. Could you, CaptainEek progress along these lines? Time is very short.--Ipigott (talk) 10:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC) In the meantime, I think it may be useful to make sure JSutherland (WMF) is aware of our concerns.--Ipigott (talk) 11:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    a bit purple passageish in places - Not going to disagree. I think the style is within the "open statement of principles" genre, but I'd would welcome any changes that would help in that regard.
    I'd use "well-being and safety" in the action bullet Done.
    WMF already has a Human Rights Team - Thanks for the link. I know there are folks at the WMF doing this stuff, but hadn't found the precise group. The team appears to be one person at the moment. Maybe the ask should shift towards significantly increasing that team and its importance within the organization.
    Regarding the suggestion to be more pointed about the ANI case, I don't think that's a wise idea and probably wouldn't sign on to a letter that set out to interfere so directly in an ongoing case. As I wrote earlier, it just doesn't seem like we have all the information, and we have a death of relevant legal expertise in this thread. I don't even know that putting out a public statement about the case wouldn't make things more complicated on the ground for them. Also, writing that statement as I watched the US election results, I'm also thinking about what happens if the American justice system is used to silence critics. If the WMF doesn't have a big team of smart people figuring out how to protect people when those US orders start coming in, and coming up with contingency plans, it should. Just another reason to talk principles and broader requests rather than something pointed IMO. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Regarding the US election, I have been thinking about this as well and think this is something worth discussing, but it should have its own thread. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Short suggestion below... [cobbled together from various people's words, especially Rhododendrites]; edited to change underlined bits. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The English Wikipedia community has been following recent events in the The Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation legal case with trepidation. In a world where many players would like to control the content of their Wikipedia article, we consider that protecting editor anonymity is essential to maintaining an encyclopedia that is comprehensive, reliable and neutral. Our millions of volunteer contributors look to the Foundation to defend them against powerful external entities as they go about their work, sifting and balancing what the existing published sources write about the topic.
    In the light of this, we, the undersigned, are profoundly concerned at the suggestion that the Foundation is considering disclosing identifying private information about volunteer editors to the Delhi High Court. We appreciate the complexities of international legal disputes over release of such information, and commend the Foundation for routinely resisting disclosure and for assisting editors who find themselves in legal jeopardy. Nevertheless, we call upon the Foundation to prioritize the safety and well being of volunteers, even if it comes with a risk of legal action against the Foundation, or other costs. Any other action risks having a chilling effect on the work of volunteers across the project, and only makes it more likely that such pressure will be exerted in future. In short, it jeopardizes the future of our shared project.
  • Going offline soon, feel free to hack around as you please. Espresso Addict (talk) 12:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sounds good. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This looks good, thanks for putting it together. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:35, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Quite acceptable (at the time I'm reading it). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks good. Cremastra (u — c) 12:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This feels like a reasonable distillation of the conversation so far. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Reasonable and I don't see any glaring flaws. Support. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks good to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Instead of their Wikipedia article, I suggest "Wikipedia articles", to avoid implying that articles belong to a given party, or that undue influence is only a concern with articles directly associated with the party. isaacl (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I cannot engage deeply in this, for which I apologize. Based on what I have read in the news media, though, I believe we need to emphasize the point that we are a tertiary source and that we do not publish anything that hasn't already been said by other sources: in this case, the Indian news media. The news coverage of this suggests the court does not fully understand how we write our content. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Espresso Addict is there a way you can incorporate a line to this effect in your draft? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:35, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Vanamonde93. Ack, this is why I am bad at doing this kind of thing, I find it easy to write a draft that I feel flows and then can't incorporate new material. There's the problem that we're exhorting the Foundation, who already know that, not the Delhi Court. I don't want to put anything between "...comprehensive, reliable and neutral. Our [millions] of volunteer contributors look to the Foundation..." because those two sentences flow into one another. How about after "...as they go about their work", to add something like , sifting and balancing what the existing published sources write about the topic. Other thoughts welcome! @Barkeep49 and Cullen328: Espresso Addict (talk) 23:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    When I pinged you I was trying to stuff it into the second paragraph and couldn't make it work. But re-reading it now I came to the conclusion it would work better at the end of the first paragraph only to see you write the same. I'd personally suggest Our volunteer contributors look to the Foundation to defend them against powerful external entities as they go about their work and to help those powerful entities understand that we work by summarizing what existing published sources write about a topic. (deleted [millions] as in a given year we only have ~800k editors most of whom only ever make one edit; the true number of editors who count on it is over 100k). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:37, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, Barkeep49. Not sure "to help those powerful entities understand that" goes here, it's not clear to whom it is addressed, but otherwise we seem to have written very similar things!
    I genuinely thought the number was millions, I think based on the edit count ranking page, which suggests there are 3.3 million editors, but now I look it says registered accounts, and I have no idea how many of those have actually made an edit (@WhatamIdoing: who is good at this kind of figure). I was going for "very large numbers of worker ants labouring tirelessly but oh so vulnerable to the boot of capitalism" feel... Also, I don't think we should go for the figure of editors active in any year because, in principle, bad actors could demand personal information in relation to edits from the past. I know the Foundation deletes IP data but connected e-mail accounts are, perhaps, an even bigger problem. (I'm personally considering delinking mine, as a result of this discussion.) Espresso Addict (talk) 01:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On contributor number, "Over 1,100,000 editors have edited Wikipedia more than 10 times" acc. English Wikipedia and the date appears to be 2008! I don't think millions is hyperbolic. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support the Espresso Addict short version, with a small change in line with Vanamonde93's suggestion just above. Cullen328 (talk) 18:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Acceptable for me as well. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 00:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Seeing as the adjusted EA version seems to have a lot of backing, I've created Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation to try to get the ball rolling. Those more experienced with previous petitions needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Visibility

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I requested a watchlist notice and it has been implemented. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Taking into account the time-senstive nature and impact implications of the above discussion, would a watchlist notice be too far a step? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would be in favour of requesting a watchlist notice. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it would not be too far a step; it affects the entire site more in the long term than any RfA or editing drive, and we don't blink at including those as watchlist notcies. Cremastra (u — c) 12:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please go ahead. We can't let WMF set an extremely dangerous precedent.Ratnahastin (talk) 12:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Espresso Addict (talk) 12:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* There is a proposed letter to the WMF [link] in response to Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation.

Cremastra (u — c) 13:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This feels sensible once there is an open letter for Wikipedians to sign-on to. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. What timeline are we looking at here? How much support is needed in #Should we send an open letter? before we can progress to doing so? Cremastra (u — c) 20:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1. Given the short timeframe we've found ourselves in, we're talking about a timeframe of the next few hours. It seems like there aren't any concerns about Espresso Addict's draft. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think it would be fine as a watchlist notice. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support a watchlist notice, and a WP:CENT notice while we're at it. We're on a short timeframe here. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:35, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With zero communication from WMF and the very real threat to our fellow editors it is not too far. We should make it a WP:CENT as well to inform more editors. We are up against time and we can do with speed instead of precision this time. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 00:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dedicated page

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I was scrolling through past actions when I discovered Wikipedia:SOPA initiative. Considering the sheer size of this discussion, I believe it would be a good idea to give this matter it's own page. Plus, it would help with visability.Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 16:57, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with this, given how voluminous the discussion has been. Ratnahastin (talk) 17:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that a dedicated page should be reserved for when we have an open letter for editors to sign, which should hopefully be very soon. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps release the letter and publish the page simultaneously? It's in important to remember we don't have days to play with - we have less than 48 hours. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 17:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that publishing the page should probably be how we release the letter, and we should do it as soon as possible. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doing something quickly

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Barring the one No vote, it seems like there is a consensus to create an open letter to the WMF that can collect signatures. There is also a draft on this page that seems to be accepted among participants. We have a limited amount of time. Considering the unusual circumstances, I think we should hurry up and post the open letter to Meta. Any objections? QuicoleJR (talk) 19:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like there's confidence in the current draft by Espresso Addict (with Isaacl's and Vanamonde's suggestions). Note that Quiddity (WMF) has left a comment above clarifying what he can say about the timeline, namely that November 8 is the date the appeal against releasing the info will be heard but that information beyond that is limited for legal reasons. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noting Quiddity's (WMF staff) latest comment, I'd like to encourage folks to slow down for a moment. Parsing the admittedly cryptic language, I think we have our timeframe wrong here. The Foundation isn't disclosing data on the 8th; it's just that the next hearing is on the 8th. While I'm no expert in Indian courts, I imagine that the court isn't going to make a decision within a day, and even if they did, they can't require immediate disclosure. So I think we have at least a few extra days breathing room, minimum, and potentially a lot more. I know American appeals courts usually take months to render decisions. Even if India is going a lot faster, we have some time here. Wikipedia doesn't work well under time constraints, so let's recognize that we have more time, and be a bit more contemplative about this. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might be right, CaptainEek, that things will not move forward as quickly as some of us fear. Nevertheless, in this context I think we should bear in mind the recent Hindustan Times article titled "Wikipedia ready to give details of who edited page".--Ipigott (talk) 10:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on your read of things, is there a specific aspect of this discussion you think is more likely to change (or should), given a little more time? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with CaptainEek that we don't want to rush into this. I think we need some kind of agreed-upon timeframe to be working on, so that everyone is aware of our "deadlines" and goals. Even if nov. 8 isn't a crisis day, we still want to do this as soon as possible while still having a bit of time to discuss. I think the letter should be posted on meta no later than the 12th, a date I definitely did not just pull out of my hat. Cremastra (u — c) 20:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Essentially, we don't know what the WMF's plan is. We don't know how cooperative they intend to be with the court or with us. It's possible they fully intend to have it in hand on November 8, it's possible that they're already in full agreement with us and deadset on not giving it away under any circumstances, or it could be anything in between. And I don't blame them for not saying, especially if it's somewhere on the latter half of that spectrum. We know they're watching this discussion very closely, and we don't know whether the court is following this discussion (they don't seem to understand the first thing about how Wikipedia works, but we can't fully rule it out either). There is a definite point of no return, but we don't know when it will come to pass, or if it even will. All we really know is that November 8 is the earliest that it could. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, I'm of multiple minds on this. While it would be nice to seize upon Quiddity's assurances to believe that we have more breathing room than there appeared to be, the collective context gives us no real assurances: for one, we have one of the involved volunteers here telling us plainly that the WMF has told them that they may disclose the information as early as the 8th. That detail has been consistent across their messages detailing their communications with the WMF.
    And that actually makes a lot of sense because, not meaning to go after you here CaptainEek, but as to "While I'm no expert in Indian courts, I imagine that the court isn't going to make a decision within a day, and even if they did, they can't require immediate disclosure.", I'm afraid that you're mistaken. The court very much can--and if it has previously requested the turn-over of this information, probably will--order the immediate disclosure of that information. Or more accurately, it will give an oral colloquy (directive), and may or may not already have a written, formal order prepared to enter immediately, since a court of this standing has its own clerks--in lower courts, in a common law system, the prevailing party is often tasked with the work of writing the order consistent with the court's oral ruling, which is then reviewed and entered by the court, introducing delays, but this is less common in cases at bar before higher courts, where justices will typically task the work to one of their (lawyer) clerks.
    Indeed, because the WMF's disclosures and the published reporting on this case are so incomplete and vague as to the current posture of the proceedings, it is entirely possible that court's patience is at a low ebb and that they are already prepapred to threaten or immediately apply contempt sanctions the day of the hearing, which will put WMF legal and outside co-counsel immediately on the spot. It all depends on the number of times the court has ordered this information, the legal arguments brought to bear at the hearing, and court's disposition, but make no mistake that it is completely within the court's discretion to order disclosure at any time during that hearing, and a very real possibility. This is undoubtedly why Quiddity used the quite tactical wording of "This hearing is not intended as a date for data disclosure." (emphasis mine)
    So, on the whole, I do believe we should err on the side of caution and assume that the WMF should be given the a formal statement of the community's stance on the preference for accepting certain sanctions, if it is the only way to avoid disclosure of PII. The communication of that preference is not fundamentally difficult, and we can't unring the bell if they don't get that message in time and factor it into their decision making as the legal representative of the project. On the other hand, if we do end up having more time, great: we can continue to refine our messaging to the WMF with further statements. But they should be aware of something firm and concrete by the 8th. SnowRise let's rap 23:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The other important detail is that they've already been working on the decision. The appeal was filed a while ago. We're approaching the end of the decision making process, not the beginning of it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I do agree with you here. The main goal for this is to respond to WMF's possible action, not to what they have done. The goal is to provide a strong opinion on WMF's agreement to disclose the PII, not whatever the PII is disclosed or not. The best timing to do that is before the hearing on the 8th, not after that date. And this matter have been going on for months. The editor in question had been contacted in July, and WMF's agreement to disclose had been made at the end of October. The best timing is now, not then. It may not be the most elegantly worded letter but a quick response is what is most impactful now. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 00:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As long as the letter doesn't claim to speak for the community beyond the ones signing it, personally I feel once there have been a few days for all interested persons to provide feedback and a stable version to emerge, those who want to sign it should proceed. However if the intent is to let contributors across all Wikimedia sites sign on, then an opportunity for the other communities to provide feedback should be given before signing. isaacl (talk) 20:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Should we notify at minimum the other big wikipedias (fr, de, ja and so on) about this discussion? Cremastra (u — c) 21:12, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Absolutely asap. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Personally I think the broader discussion should occur on meta wiki. So if you're thinking about having the letter open for signing by the 12th, in my opinion the discussion at meta wiki should be started very soon. isaacl (talk) 21:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I will notify meta that this discussion here at enwiki is, mm, happening, and will deliver a message to our sister english-language projects soon. Cremastra (u — c) 21:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If the situation were reversed, I imagine there might be greater participation from English Wikipedia editors in a discussion on meta than another wiki? So I think there might be more participation from other Wikimedia communities on meta wiki than here. isaacl (talk) 21:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So we should wait until the letter is moved to meta? Cremastra (u — c) 21:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In my opinion, the work on drafting the letter should move now/very soon to meta wiki and at the same time the other communities should be invited to participate, so there is an opportunity to revise the text based on their feedback. I appreciate that opening up discussion risks a too-many-cooks situation, but I think it's reasonable to give other communities the chance to have input if they're going to be asked to sign up. I think the desire to get a statement out sooner rather than later will exert enough pressure to compromise on a version quickly. Or other communities might decide to draft their own version, which is fine, too. (Of course, this is all my personal view; others may have different ideas.) isaacl (talk) 23:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I appreciate that opening up discussion risks a too-many-cooks situation I'm not worried about that; Wikipedia as a whole is a too-many cooks situation, and we seem to bumble through well enough. Cremastra (u — c) 00:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Whenever a page goes up, the page creator might want to email an annotated link to wmf-legal. A single communique here from their department chair does not necessarily indicate broad awareness of how these threads have developed; my impression is that email gets some people's attention more readily than interwiki notifications. Folly Mox (talk) 01:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any merit in putting up the draft written by me (based on condensing Rhododendrites' draft), up somewhere on en-wiki as soon as the final tweaks are sorted, and getting the watchlist notice activated, so we can start to get signatures? My draft is specific to this community, and who knows how long it will take to find someone prepared to summarise the views of the wider Wikimedia community (not me). I feel as if the clock is ticking and nothing is happening. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, there is merit. I suggest creating Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation (possibly marking it as a draft) and linking it from watchlist notices and T:CENT Cremastra (u — c) 02:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to state the obvious for clarity, the current underlining in the draft letter was only intended to indicate editing changes, and should be removed before posting it anywhere. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If there's no desire to get signatures from other communities, then sure, it can have a separate page on English Wikipedia. (Maybe just send some notifications to let other communities know that English Wikipedia is planning to send an open letter.) Some of the previous commenters have suggested not rushing to start with signature collection, though. A little more time to let people review the text might be good. isaacl (talk) 02:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've created the page here. As noted above, we don't know how much time we have, so would be good to get stuff moving along as quickly as possible. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @AirshipJungleman29: Thanks for posting. Signed. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Espresso Addict, Dilettante, Pppery, Snow Rise, Thebiguglyalien, Ratnahastin, Queen of Hearts, Fantastic Mr. Fox, Tazerdadog, Cremastra, BilledMammal, Legoktm, Bonadea, Carrite, Marcelus, Chaotic Enby, SunDawn, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, and Barkeep49: Apologies for the mass ping. As you all appear to have expressed support for the open letter above, I thought you should be aware of its publication. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the ping. Cremastra (u — c) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To be clear, since my name has come up a couple times, though some of the language comes from a draft I wrote, I was trying to avoid the appearance of trying to intervene in an active court case (mainly, by omitting ANI/India). As I expressed above, (a) I'm uneasy doing so with such a conspicuous absence of relevant legal expertise in this thread, and (b) I'd prefer a statement of principles that would apply outside/beyond this case, too. Similar basic idea, just less explicit (and, granted, wordier, with an additional longer-term ask that could be better fleshed out). This statement is less pointed than some of the other expressions on this page, but I'm still not entirely sure I feel comfortable signing onto it. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I like your statement of principles and doubt you would sign on to one of mine, so good job. It does however contain: prioritize the safety and well-being of volunteers even if it comes with a risk of legal action against the foundation. This is a legal action against the foundation. It's unclear what the intent is there. Being unclear it smacks a bit of the "revenue streams" thinking which has been forcefully denied above. fiveby(zero) 14:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that is intended to refer to a potential fine, block, or other legal punishment by the court. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This, yes. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might want to read carefully #Comment from Jimbo Wales and other comments as to "potential fine" and "block". other legal punishment by the court still remains unclear. You might be writing something which everyone in the WMF would gladly sign on to if they could. fiveby(zero) 15:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For what it's worth, I do also think a longer and broader statement of principles is something we should put together, but that is less time sensitive than something like the open letter. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree completely (and thanks for the above ping). Espresso Addict (talk) 00:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Open letter to WMF now published and awaiting support

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An open letter to WMF has been published and is taking signatures.--Ipigott (talk) 16:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Journalism invited

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The Signpost invites community submissions for publication in the Wikipedia community newspaper.

Bluerasberry (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great banner! Ratnahastin (talk) 01:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bluerasberry: Thanks for making this banner Lane. I have added it to my user page and encourage others to do the same. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great idea, me too! Espresso Addict (talk) 00:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same here. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other Wikipedias

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List

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Commentary

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I would think this case transcends language, and would be of interest to Wikipedians working on any of the other language Wikipedias. Mathglot (talk) 03:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with this. An editor also mentioned that ru-wiki is concerned about this too [3]. Ratnahastin (talk) 04:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Russian – mentioned at WT:OPENLETTER2024#The English Wikipedia community +; link needed. Mathglot (talk) 04:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#h-Фонд_удалил_статью_анвики_по_предварительн-20241022171800 this is from somewhere above in the first thread. – robertsky (talk) 08:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I decided to skim this discussion with machine translation, and I'm happy to confirm that ruwiki attracts the same type of people as enwiki. Many people expressing concerns with level-headed comments, many people jumping to the worst possible conclusions, some racist tangents, and an admin (who also happens to be a boardmember) misrepresenting the facts so they can say that there's nothing to see here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I left them a note about the petition at Simple Talk, which is basically a combination of all the Village Pumps and the Teahouse. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone might want to look into the Indian languages. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aafi:, @Matrix: @Satdeep Gill: Abzeronow (talk) 20:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Corrected one. Abzeronow (talk) 20:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping @Abzeronow. I receive pings on my doppelganger as well. I posted on ur-wiki VP here. Regards, Aafi (talk) 06:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aafi, I added a link to the links section above, but it links to the top of the page not the section. If you know how to link directly to the section, please adjust the link to point directly to it. (Ditto for the Google translate link, if you know how to do that as well.) Mathglot (talk) 21:21, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathglot: I fixed the main-link. Feel free to fix anything if needed. Regards, Aafi (talk) 07:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
as it appears the translation links are broken. I landed on main-pages when checing two. Regards, Aafi (talk) 07:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aafi, yes, I noticed that; I'll fix those tomorrow. Thanks for the section link. Mathglot (talk) 07:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to help spread the word to the many Indian language Wikipedias. If I can think of Odia and Telugu speakers, I'll ping them. Abzeronow (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ta-wiki notified here —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {u - t? - uselessc} 11:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Forgot to @CptViraj: before. Abzeronow (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added German to the list above. Mathglot (talk) 00:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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