Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2013 December 10

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December 10

Citing the Catholic Encyclopedia

How best to cite the Catholic Encyclopedia? I'm not sure whether I should cite this page, or a stable revision of s:Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Archdiocese of Cincinnati, or one of the other online editions given at the bottom of our article on the encyclopedia. I don't have access to a printed copy, so I'm stuck with citing an online edition. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism isn't very active; that's why I'm asking here and not there. Nyttend (talk) 00:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

{{Cite Catholic Encyclopedia}} supports either New Advent or Wikisource; I personally use Wikisource because I'm Wikimedia-biased, but both should be identical, so either one works. ~HueSatLum 01:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Never seen that template before. Thanks for the link! Nyttend (talk) 01:32, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

What is standard procedure for disliking the result of a discussion?

I raised a discussion on merging a List of religious leaders in 1220 (and the one other year-list for that century) into List of 13th-century religious leaders. As is normally done, a notice on the list pointed to a discussion on the talk of the target list. After no objections and a week's time, I closed the discussion. Since things could want to point to the old list I did not delete it, but made it a redirect to the new.

User:Adam Bishop now reverted the redirect for the old content. (Leaving for the moment all the indiscriminate collection of information that was also added back in.) What is standard procedure for disliking the result of a discussion, even if you did not take part in it? Maybe also inform him too, if that seem appropriate. tahc ^chat 03:24, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

it appears the merge discussion had reached a consensus (of 3) and the consensus was acted on. The other editor's rationale does not seem very rooted in policy, its an "I like it!" !vote. So even if the other editor had known about and participated in the discussion, at 3:1 it would still seem the consensus for merge would carry. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Age calculation templates

Hi! I've been over at the Brandon Lee article trying to fix up the infobox and one of the things it needs is the age calculation template (his age at date of death). I know that there is supposed to be a certain way to add these, but even with the instructions, it's very difficult to get it right and I don't really understand everything I need to do make it work. Every time a preview my changes, there's still something wrong with it, and I don't want to mess up the article. Can someone please help me with this? Thanks for your time. Survivorfan1995 (talk) 06:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Survivorfan1995: How about now? [1] --Glaisher [talk] 06:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes! Many thanks! I guess it was pretty simple after all. But could you please tell me what "mf=yes" means? I know I probably seem stupid to even ask such a thing, but just for future reference. Thanks! Survivorfan1995 (talk) 06:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Most templates have documentation, which can be seen at their template:xyz page. Per template:Birth date, it's a parameter to cause the date to be displayed month-first. Rwessel (talk) 07:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

wrong language page

When I am searching for something, the answer page comes up Nederland. Can I do something so it comes up in English? I do not want to have to use the translate to English function.

под капотам розетка 250 v . это што . обагрев. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.36.241.115 (talk) 07:32, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

If this is a problem with your Wikipedia use, click on Preferences at the top of he page, then check that the drop-down menu at "Language" is set to the option you require. If, as I suspect, your question is about using a search engine to search the internet, then it sounds as if you need to change your search engine settings. For example, when using Google, you can click on Settings / Search settings / Languages to select the language in which your results will be displayed. if I have misunderstood, and your problem is not related to either of these issues, then please explain a little further so we can try to help. Karenjc (talk) 09:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

In citation templates, including non-English names of authors who wrote articles in English

In Antoine_Bazin#References I used a journal article written by Liu Wu-chi as a reference to prove that the title He hanshan may be translated in English as "Joining the Shirt" (Bazin had translated that title into French as Ho-Han-Chan ou La Tunique Confrontée). The academic article is in English but the final two pages of the source is an abstract in Chinese, indicating the author's name is written in Chinese as 柳无忌. I believe including the Chinese name of the author in the citation (at least until someone writes an article about him) can be useful to people who want to find additional works or information by him that may be written in Chinese (it is not possible to copy and paste the Chinese text in the PDF which contains the source). Another editor stated that the Chinese name of the author should not be included at all if the source article is in English anyway. Would anyone like to weigh in on the matter?

Thank you, WhisperToMe (talk) 08:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a policy on the matter, but I would think it entirely reasonable to include the name in Chinese. --ColinFine (talk) 15:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Please look at the article before commenting, especially if you "do not know whether there is a policy...." WhisperToMe is an excellent editor who has made an excellent article, but does not give all the details in his or her question here. The question is whether in a footnote the Chinese characters of the author should be added to the normal citation. There must be hundreds of thousands of footnotes in Wikipedia articles, none of which give Chinese characters for authors of books or articles in English. In this case there is no reason to go against normal practice because any reader who can read Chinese can see the author's name perfectly well, and readers who do not read Chinese have no need for the characters.

Another matter is that the citation to the article in question should be in the footnote, not in a separate section listing the works cited in the footnotes.

There is an extensive (!) discussion of this question on my Talk Page Here Cheers! ch (talk) 18:03, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the lack of Chinese names necessarily means that is the established practice that other editors agree with. I think it means either nobody has gotten around to adding the Chinese names to those pages, or that there is no way to determine the Chinese name of the said author. Also there are people who are interested in Chinese names (perhaps to do a quick Google search to see what else comes up about the author) but do not know how to write them down/type them. I often have to go on Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language to ask editors "what are the Chinese characters in this picture?" WhisperToMe (talk) 19:35, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I only skimmed through the discussion on CWH's talk, so apologies if I missed anything. In general, I think it's helpful to include Chinese names, even for translated works (e.g. for many titles WhisperToMe asked me to find the Chinese original of, it involved quite a bit of Googling and deduction to figure out), but I find it unnecessary in this specific case, as the Chinese names / titles really aren't any more definitive than the English ones given that the original essay appears to have been in English. It also helps that no information is lost by not including the Chinese name, as the source document includes it and is available online. I think starting a stub on Liu Wu-Chi, including the Chinese name there and linking it is a solution that everyone can agree on, so I'll go ahead and do that. wctaiwan (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for starting the article :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Let me add both my thanks to both of you for your outstanding work! I am entirely in favor of adding Chinese characters wherever it is 1) Wiki policy and 2) useful. I use Wikipedia all the time to check or find them for my work, so I am very dependent on your good will. ch (talk) 02:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Multi SIM Card and Multi-SIM card

Dear editors: I was about to nominate the above old stale Afc draft for deletion as a copyright violation of http://www.polarmtech.com/product/12-in-1-multi-sim-card, but that led me to Multi-SIM card. While there is less copyvio (but still some), it is also unsourced and the part removed seems to be the important security information and the fact that it may be illegal. I worry that people may be buying these cards on the basis of this article. Should anything be done here? —Anne Delong (talk) 13:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

How can I be assured of security of the page Quinton de Kock

Dear sir, I frequently edit the page Quinton de Kock who is a young emerging cricketer from South Africa. But two days ago, a Wikipedia user named User:Ytfc23 edited it and unnecessarily removed a list of his domestic centuries which was in the format of a wikitable. Now if non-users do such things, then we call it vandalism and the admins can semi-protect that article. But this is a case where a user is doing vandalism! If you even semi protect it, then you also can't prevent him from doing it as he is an user. And after I saw that table was missing, I again had to collect all the information to create the table again and it took a lot of time. Again if he does that, then again someone will have to update that! Please do something. Either warn him or manually protect the article from him. Please do something. Check his talk-page, he has been doing vandalism and removing facts in other cricket pages too. Thanks and regards. User:Itz arka —Preceding undated comment added 13:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest that you read Wikipedia's definition of vandalism. As far as I can see, the actions of Ytfc23 do not meet that definition. His edit seemed quite reasonable, as it doesn't seem appropriate to list domestic centuries for each notable cricketer; of course if he is not notable in Wikipedia's terms, he should not have an article. The place to discuss edits is on the talk page of the article, in this case Talk:Quinton de Kock. You should not be edit warring instead of discussing the matter. - David Biddulph (talk) 14:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Itz arka, what should and should not be included in an article is a judgement call. Not every fact, even every verifiable fact, belongs in an article, or our articles would be so huge as to be useless. Articles are intended to summarize the existing published reliable writing on a subject. Note by they way that editors who do not choose to log in are also "users". "Vandalism" on Wikipedia means changes intended to harm the encyclopedia. If Ytfc23 intended the removal of the table to be an improvement, then it was not vandalism, even if you disagree, even if the consensus of other editors disagrees. This seems like a case of the WP:BRD cycle. An editor has made a bold edit. You have reverted it. Now the thing to do is to discuss the matter. That discussion should take place on Talk:Quinton de Kock. I urge you to start it by posting your reasons why you think the table should remain in the article. If you include a link to User:Itz arka, and if you sign your post (with four tildes "~~~~") then User:Itz arka will be notified of the discussion, just as both of you should be notified of this posting. Only if an editor continues to edit against an established consensus, or if an edit war develops (always a bad idea) would any sort of protection or sanction be considered. Remember to assume good faith and remain civil in the discussion. Other editors may well, in good faith, have very different ideas about the ideal content and layout of an article. DES ^(talk) 14:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I should add, Itz arka, if someone removes info from an article, it is still there in the history, and you can easily revert. there is no need to laboriously recompile information, unless you think the previous compilation was incorrect or incomplete or in some other way needs improvement rather than simply restoration. Perhaps that will make things seem less troubling. DES ^(talk) 16:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh I can realize it, but it may be the domestic twenty20 centuries but the list includes all his twenty20 centuries including domestic and international ones. But the fact is that he hasn't yet scored an international century in twenty20 cricket till now, that's why the list currently doesn't contain any international centuries. In case he scores one international century, I will be fascinated to include that too in the same list. And those two domestic centuries in the list are a bit popular ones, because the first one he scored in RamSlam Twenty20 tournament and that was the highest individual twenty20 score including international and domestic twenty20s played on South African soil. He broke the previous record of Chris Gayle which was an international century on South African soil. So certainly that's a popular and important century of De Kock. And the second century he scored in domestic twenty20 was in Champions League Twenty20 which is also a bit popular in cricketing nations, especially in the Indian subcontinent. So both of those should be included in his article. And talking about notability, David Biddulph, I would like to inform you that he is no more a domestic player and he has created some records in international cricket in last one month for South Africa. He has scored three successive centuries in three successive matches, a stint which was previously done by only 4 players in the history of One Day International Cricket. He has also become the highest scorer EVER in a three-match One Day International series. You can notice it by checking the recent 'page view statistics' of his article in Wikipedia. So he will certainly become a 'notable' person in terms of Wikipedia in very near future and his article is well valid to be kept in Wikipedia. Thanks and Ragards. Itz arka (talk) 16:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC) Itz arka (talk) 16:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I still feel that it isn't reasonable to list all domestic T20 centuries, but (as I said earlier) the place to discuss it is on the article talk page. If a particular innings is specifically notable, it might reasonably be mentioned in the text (with an appropriate reference). You ought to be careful about saying things like "... he will certainly become a 'notable' person in terms of Wikipedia", see Wikipedia:Up and coming next big thing. As it happens, I think his record probably does already make him notable, see WP:notability (sports), but if not the article would have to wait until he is. - David Biddulph (talk) 16:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Fortunately, having played international cricket for South Africa (albeit ODI's not Test matches) de Kock is already notable, because the belief that someone will become a notable person at some point in the future holds no weight here whatsoever.
(PS I think user DES may have got a little confused in his advice above, I think he meant to say "If you include a link to User:Ytfc23" and if you sign your post (with four tildes "~~~~") then User:Ytfc23 will be notified of the discussion" - there would be little point in User:Itz arka, notifying themselves.) - Arjayay (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes I did get the names backward, Arjayay. Sorry for any confusion i may have caused you, Itz arka. But I would point out that this page is a poor place for debating what should or should not go into the article. The article talk page would be much better. This thread will be archived shortly, and be hard for anyone looking at the article to find, or even know that it exists. Please move debate on whether the list should or should not be included, and any other content debates, to the article talk page, linked above. DES ^(talk) 16:57, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Or move to the WT:CRIC cricket project talk page, where there is already some consensus that this kind of detail on domestic cricket centuries isn't really appropriate. Johnlp (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

yes, according to the cricket notability in wikipedia, De Kock is a notable cricketer. it is stated that one should appear in a major cricket match since 1697. and De Kock appeared in 16 Major ODIs and 10 Major T20Is and also scored many runs. so he is well ahead of notability... Itz arka (talk) 19:32, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think anyone there would dispute notability. What they might dispute is that we need to have every innings spelled out in detail, especially at domestic level; if they are noteworthy innings, describe them in text.Johnlp (talk) 23:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

basic spreadsheet functions with wikitables?

Hi Help Desk, I've been looking for the answer to this with no luck for the past hour. I'm trying to find out how to do (or whether it's possible to do) two things. For a table like the one below (but imagine it's exponentially longer), I want to know how to do two things:

Apples	Oranges	Tasty?
8	3	yes
1	0	yes
103	6	no
50	50	yes

1. How can I total the number of apples at the end of the first column?
2. How can I count the number of times "no" appears in the third column?

I'll leave out what I've tried so far in anticipation of an easy answer :)

Thanks! --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  17:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

This page is for asking questions about using and editing Wikipedia. For computing questions, you could try WP:RD/C, but you would probably need to say which spreadsheet software you are using, as the commands will vary between them. - David Biddulph (talk) 17:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I assume the question is about Wikipedia tables. We don't have such functions. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:24, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, yes, on Wikipedia of course. @PrimeHunter: - is that definitive? (Sorry for cynicism -- too used to people giving absolute, unqualified answers based only on anecdotal evidence on e.g. Yahoo Answers). --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  19:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

If there are such function in wiki-markup, I am not aware of them either, nor does Help:Table mention them. Not do HTML tables include such functionality, at least not without some sort of specialized javascript library function being included. I think PrimeHunter is correct here. DES ^(talk) 21:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

It's definitely not possible with only wiki markup within the page. mw:Help:Tables and meta:Help:Table don't mention anything either. It's possible that an advanced user script, Lua module or template could be coded to do something similar, but it would be hard to work with. A user script would need to make an edit to store the current value if it should be seen or used by users without the script. A Lua module could theoretically take a whole page as input and do all sorts of things with it, for example add or count values in tables. Finally, if the table was not saved as a table in the page but instead passed as parameters to a special template then the template could return a table consisting of the input parameters plus an extra row with a sum or count. I haven't heard of anyone attempting any of these solutions, and I will certainly not do it. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:07, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Need to link Commons account

I recently changed my username from Jmeeter to Skarz. Everything was successful however I noticed my Commons account is still under Jmeeter. How do I ago about renaming my Commons account to Skarz so the Wikipedia and Commons accounts are unified? Thanks! teratogen (talk) 18:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You have visited Commons while logged in to the unified account Skarz. That means commons:User:Skarz was automatically created and belongs to you. I don't know whether commons:User:Jmeeter can usurp commons:User:Skarz when the latter belongs to a unified account, but you could request it at Commons:Changing username/Usurp requests. commons:User:Jmeeter only has 16 edits. Is it OK to just abandon that account? You can link the two accounts together with a message or redirect on the user pages. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:22, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter: 16 edits may seem insignificant but they are images I have uploaded to the Commons in the public domain. I'd prefer they stay linked to my account if that makes sense. I will be uploading new images in the future and would like my library to be 'complete.' Also, the page you linked to doesn't exist. (Commons:Changing username/Usurp requests) teratogen (talk) 19:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Try here: Commons:Commons:Changing username/Usurp requests -- John of Reading (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I forgot to stutter: Commons:Commons:Changing username/Usurp requests. I see you have already made the request. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. Heh yeah I made my request, some searching helped me find the correct page. :p teratogen (talk) 21:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Tag for incomplete reference

Is there an inline tag to label a broken/incomplete reference - such as a reference to an online document but the url is missing? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

{{Full}} does this job. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:01, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - exactly what I'm looking for. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

How to edit: The Mind Parasites

Hi, In the wake of British author Colin Wilson's death, although (by some dinosaur miracle) I was able to successfully edit "Reprints" and correct reprint years of Oneiric press' edition of The Mind Parasites, I was unable to complete the editorial correction in the topmost section ("Publication History") that discusses reprints and fails to mention Oneiric Press. To that paragraph, I wished to add the following:

>>==Publication history==

The novel was published earlier in 1967 by Arthur Barker (London), but with a different introduction. It was then reprinted by Oneiric Press (Berkeley,CA) from 1967-75, initially by Michael Besher (aka Misha PanZobop; Paris, France; then along with his brother Alexander Besher, later a Philip K. Dick Award nominated author who was heavily influenced by Wilson's work ever since he read The Mind Parasites when he was a sophomore at Sophia University, Tokyo, Japan, 1967, at which point he referred the novel to his brother, who was one of the co-founders of the Shambhala Bookstore, Berkeley, CA and Shambhala Publications/Random House. The entire editorial thrust of Oneiric Press was to keep The Mind Parasites in print; a task in which they were aided by Berkeley-based book distributors Book People. <https://openlibrary.org/works/OL102107W/The_mind_parasites>

After having input this info, I was asked for >>ref<< and when I input the ref. >>https://openlibrary.org/works/OL102107W/The_mind_parasites<, it all got screwed up. I went to your live chat for help but for the life of me was unable to input a single keystroke of a character in response to the moderator's addressing me.

Who am I? I'm listed as an entry on Wikipedia myself. ref. Alexander Besher — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexbesher (talk • contribs) 19:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I corrected the ref. Ruslik_Zero 19:30, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Michaella Vicente

Hello again, everyone. This stale draft has never been submitted at Afc, but it looks well developed. There doesn't seem to be a Wikiproject Wrestling. Can someone suggest a place to ask for advice about it? I know nothing about the subject myself. —Anne Delong (talk) 19:47, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I followed a couple of links from the draft to other articles and looked on their talk pages. That turned up a banner mentioning Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling. You could try there. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Ah! Thanks for the detective work. I've left a message there. —Anne Delong (talk) 03:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Looking for someone

Hello , I am from Norway and look for a man with name , he has been a bad person to me. This man have taken all the money I have by beeing nice and talking about married, and he have set me up by sending money to Englang, I have connected polic in Norway, and they help me. But please tried to find this man for me. He told me that he is looked up with the jail . he told me that ha needed money for tax evasion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.212.45.61 (talk) 19:58, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 4 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck.--ukexpat (talk) 20:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

We cannot offer legal advice. Please see the legal disclaimer. Contact a lawyer. CTF83! 20:11, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I have removed the names from your post in line with Wikipedia's policy on statements about living people. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:45, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Does the Reference Desk have an IRC channel?

Not much else to say. --XndrK (talk · contribs · count) 21:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't see one mentioned at WP:IRC.--ukexpat (talk) 20:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Use texts from Socientize project website, socialmedia, youtube in Socientize Project Wikipedia article

Hello

I had composed an article for the Socientize Project I am currently working at.

I had taken texts from www.socientize.eu website, and one Bot says to me I'm copying from Socientize captions on our You Tube videos.

¿What must I do?

Thank you.

Manuel Pérez in behalf of www.socientize.eu — Preceding unsigned comment added by Socientize Project (talk • contribs) 23:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You are not allowed to copy-and-paste from existing sources to fill a Wikipedia article, even if you control the sources in question. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 00:04, 11 December 2013 (UTC)