Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 3

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Add Jet Li

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"He is widely regarded as one of the most iconic Chinese film stars and one of the most renowned martial arts stars of his generation."

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:12, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:39, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Seems like a good bio to address sysbias. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:25, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. not sure how he wasn't already on here Aurangzebra (talk) 10:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Should have been on here already. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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@Piotrus, Tabu Makiadi, J947, Aurangzebra, and Grnrchst:, is this supposed to be listed at Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Sports_figures#Martial_arts_2 like Bruce Lee or Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers,_directors,_producers,_and_screenwriters#Asia like Jackie Chan?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

1. Slight preference for Entertainers but no strong feelings either way Aurangzebra (talk) 06:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

   Entertainers for me. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:57, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

   Added to Entertainers just so we don't forget to add him at all but we can move if we get more input to the contrary. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove Shoichiro Toyoda and possibly Eiji Toyoda  5

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Father Kiichiro Toyoda  5 founded Toyota. Uncle Eiji Toyoda  5 made it profitable. Shoichiro Toyoda just expanded the brand. I don't really need we should be listing people for cleaning up and expanding brands. The vital individuals are the visionary founders.

Support

1. as nom.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 18:34, January 5, 2024 (UTC) - TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:55, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
2. 10 and 15 interwikis. Important businessman for Japan, perhaps, but world? Listing Toyota should be enough I think, but consider me vote a weak support given sysbias issues. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support removal of Shoichiro Toyoda. The Blue Rider 00:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Weak support Shoichiro. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Kiichiro Toyoda and Eiji Toyoda are very essential to Japan, Toyota was perhaps the most consequential company post-World War II to help recover the Japanese economy. The Blue Rider 00:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak oppose Eiji. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Jerry Brown

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Brown was a long-serving governor, but I am not sure he rises to the level of other politicians on this list. His presidential campaigns did not ultimately impact America at the same level as say Thomas Dewey or George Wallace.

Support

1. As nom. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

This was just discussed in the last few months pbp 23:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems like we just closed a long and contentious debate that ended about 4-4 or 5-5 on this guy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Archive_1#Remove_Jerry_Brown was closed December 16 4-4. Do we really need to go through that now. User:Presidentman, Would you consider withdrawing this before it has any supports.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see this. I'll withdraw. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Andrew Tate

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Perhaps this is recentist, but we list 19 internet personalities, 40 boxers and 10 sex criminals, and Andrew Tate has to be up there in terms of his influence.

Support

1. As nominator. 𝒻eminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:39, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Too early to say if he will be at all relevant in the long run. Totalibe (talk) 23:02, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Must we? J947 ‡ ^edits 02:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose this since he was influential for like a year before he fell out of influence. But I would support adding manosphere which is the general movement that he was a part of that has gained a lot of traction over the last decade. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:12, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Ilia Chavchavadze

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He's generally regarded as Georgia's national hero and "father of the nation." He was also an accomplished journalist and poet and is a saint by the Georgian Orthodox Church—a vital activist in my view.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Seems to be of extreme importance of the identity and culture of Georgia. The Blue Rider 22:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 09:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Not all saints are vital, but he has done enough to get a V5 spot. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:27, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:51, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
7. Seems very important to Georgian history. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Some military addition proposals

Thought I'd recommend some military figures from Africa and Asia that stuck out to me as omissions. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Add Chukwuemeka Odumegwu Ojukwu

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One of the key figures in the 1966 coup, which ignited a long period of military dictatorship in Nigeria, Ojukwu soon became a leading voice for the Igbo as the military governor of Eastern Nigeria. When ethnic conflict broke out and a counter-coup took place, Ojukwu declared the independence of Biafra and became its first president and commander-in-chief of its army, leading it through three years of war with the Nigerian state. After returning from exile to a restored republic, he was targetted and imprisoned by later military dictatorships. When he died, his funeral was conducted with full military honours and was attended by the presidents of Nigeria and Ghana. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
2. The article makes a case for him being influential in Nigerian history, and it is one of the more important African countries. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:03, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Monte Melkonian

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Having started his military career fighting in the Iranian Revolution and the Lebanese Civil War, before a stint as a terrorist during the 1980s, Melkonian became one of the most important Armenian military commanders in the First Nagorno-Karabakh War. He was a founding commander of the Artsakh Defense Forces and arguably the most skilled commander of the Armenian forces during the war. He was killed during the war and his funeral was attended by tens of thousands, including the Armenian president. Armenia's military academy was subsequently named after him and he is widely seen as a national hero in the country. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak/conditional support. Important for a country that is however, not particularly important. Add if there's room in quota. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Seems important enough to Armenian history to be included. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:02, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Chen Jiongming

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Possibly one of the most important Chinese warlords of the 1910s. Already an activist in the revolutionary movement before the Xinhai Revolution, afterwards he was appointed as commander of the Guangdong Army and played a pivotal role in capturing parts of the south for Sun Yat-sen's constitutionalist movement, which would eventually reunite the country. He also laid the groundwork for the First United Front with the Communist Party, but after proposing a multi-party federalist system for China, he was ousted by the KMT. He later founded the China Zhi Gong Party, which still exists today as a minor party in the People's Republic of China. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
2. He helped Sun Yat-sen (VT4) overthrow the Qing dynasty (VT4), which is pretty monumental but other than that he didn't do anything particularly vitality worthy, so for that weak support. I would think of adding Du Wenxiu and to a lesser extend Zhang Lexing first. The Blue Rider 15:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

   Li Hongzhang could potentially be added as well. The Blue Rider 20:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

   That one seems like a clearcut add. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

3. I am pretty sure China is underrepresented. Support as long as we are doing ok with quota, and would likely support some swap if not. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Weak support; his Britannica article makes him important but he doesn't rate a mention in our history of Sun Yat-sen  4. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose mainly because his article is too poorly formed for anyone to figure out why he is important without a lot of effort. I should know why he is important before I finish the WP:LEAD, which is supposed to summarize the most important parts of every part of the article.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

   What a odd reason to oppose, no? The article can and should be improved, but that doesn't make him any less vital. The Blue Rider 12:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

   Yeah seems a bit counterproductive, especially when the main purpose of VA is to improve important articles that are lacking (and given that there's plenty of information on his importance in this discussion alone). J947 ‡ ^edits 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Tarana Burke

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The above discussion referencing Christine Blasey Ford made me think about how it was surprising that there aren't any activists on this list pertaining to the #MeToo movement. Though it is still fairly recent, I think we can all agree that the movement has achieved global significance. Unlike other recent, impactful social movements such as Occupy Wall Street which was organized by a confluence of different groups which makes it hard to pinpoint any specific individual of key importance (besides David Graeber who is already listed in the Social Scientists section), the #MeToo movement was created by one person, Tarana Burke, so I think she should be listed here. A weaker contender may also be Alyssa Milano who popularized the term and was the catalyst for snowballing this into a global movement.

Support

1. per above. Aurangzebra (talk) 09:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:27, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Amy Klobuchar

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One of the most significant figures in US politics, and has consistently remained popular among voters. I'm nominating this since we are discussing the removal of several American women politicians.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Is she really? She is popular in Minnesota electorally speaking and sought the Democratic presidential nom, but I'm not seeing the special influence beyond that. Totalibe (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I concur with the nominator's concern about remove mainly women politicians, but Klobuchar is not the first contemporary woman politician I would add. Consider, for example, Barbara Mikulski or Dianne Feinstein, both of whom had longer, more significant, careers IMO. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose and my family are big fans of hers. If we removed John Kerry and George McGovern idk how we justify including her. I'd probably also rate her below each of the women currently up for removal (and I note that only Ferraro and Smith are likely to be removed). She's not even the woman who got the most votes in the 2020 Democratic primary; that would be Elizabeth Warren, who has a better case than she. Patti Murray, Susan Collins and the two listed by Presidentman are also more notable than she. IDK if you count Janet Yellen as a politician or an economist or something else but she is also more notable. pbp 20:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Pavel Durov

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Founder of VK (service)  5 and Telegram (software)  5.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Ralph "Papa" Thorson

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What makes him vital? A minor film adaptation of his book doesn't seem particularly noteworthy. Respublik (talk) 01:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nominator. Respublik (talk) 01:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Good catch. starship.paint (RUN) 14:30, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Sure, barely notable with just 1 interwiki. I wish we had an easy way to check who added this so we could check what other weird stuff they might have added. It is good these days (I assume) we revert any non-discussed changes on sight? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   You can use WikiBlame. It looks like Thorson was included with 8 others to fill out the Law Enforcement section. These additions were Guy Bradley, James Comey, Pat Garrett, Anna Loginova, William Marwood, Kang Sheng, and Charlie Siringo. I feel like these are 5 or 6 easy removals (I'd want to keep Kang Sheng and maybe Pat Garrett). I don't think the user added these maliciously but were just trying to fill quota and using some list they found online. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

   This user added about half the list. ;) But yeah, we might need to cull the Miscellaneous section because there's a lot of obscure/fringe figures for representation of various categories that consensus seems to be turning against including. J947 ‡ ^edits 20:36, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:50, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
5. pbp 03:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Jessie Daniel Ames

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An anti-lynching activist who appears far less well-known than many or even most of the Civil Rights activists listed here. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Just 3 interwikis. I call US history trivia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. pbp 22:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. For her day, she did as much as I could imagine a woman could do. As soon as women had the right to vote, she was a delegate for 3 consecutive Democratic National Conventions. She must have been well regarded in her day.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:11, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Joseph Breen

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Less notable than the Hays Code itself. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Just 7 interwikis, nothing in the lead suggests vitality. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:53, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose but move elsewhere Let's honor September's discussion. pbp 22:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

This is the second time this fella has been nominated for removal in the last four months. I don't think he belongs in activists, but, as I said previously, he DOES have a case to be included under Hollywood personalities, as he's far from the least vital of those on the list. His article notes that being the Hayes Code enforcer made him very influential in shaping American and even worldwide culture of the mid-20th century. pbp 22:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I was unaware of the previous discussion, however I still think it may make more sense to swap for Hays Code instead, as the code itself is much more well-known and he doesn't seem to be that notable outside of it. Totalibe (talk) 22:10, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Hubert Harrison

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Another relatively lesser-known African-American civil rights figure and socialist, more vital than Jessie Daniel Ames but still doesn't meet the cut IMO.

Support

1. As nom. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Just 6 interwikis. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Tony Mazzocchi

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A guy who served as the Vice-President of a union and co-founded a minor political party, who seems to be only listed for helping pass OSHA. Page views are only at an average of 8 per day.

Support

1. As nom. Totalibe (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Just one interwiki. Not vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:51, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Getting OSHA passed is rather important but he doesn't seem to be well-known at all pbp 05:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom and above comments. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:11, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Jean Bodin

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Jean Bodin's ideas echoed across Europe, profoundly influencing political thought and governance for centuries. His concept of sovereignty, advocating for centralized and absolute power within a state, shaped the foundation of modern nation-states and the consolidation of authority. Bodin's emphasis on the need for a strong central government provided theoretical support for absolute monarchies, influencing political structures in countries like France. The Blue Rider 16:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 16:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Major figure in legal thought and the legal foundation of the sovereign state. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
3. 51 interwikis. I guess it's fine as long as there's quota room. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. High VA5, too. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
7. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Bob Brown for Petra Kelly

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Bob Brown presumably seems to be listed as vital here for being the first person to lead the Australian Greens into Parliament and being the first openly gay Australian MP, which is something but is limited in importance outside of Australia (and in any case, Australia is overrepresented). Petra Kelly led the first ever Green Party to rise to become a national force, which seems to be something of much greater worldwide significance in terms of them becoming an major part of the party system in many countries worldwide.

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 20:52, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:04, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support per nominator. The Blue Rider 01:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support add. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support swap. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose remove-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Dolley Madison

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I believe she actually made a significant mark on the world in the role of FLOTUS.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:46, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:46, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

• How did she make a significant mark on the world though? Fundament please. The Blue Rider 13:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
  • @The Blue Rider: She organized the saving of American artifacts during the burning of Washington, DC. She is generally ranked among the most influential of American first ladies. pbp 17:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

1. @TonyTheTiger: Dolley Madison is already on the list, in the pre-1815 section pbp 13:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Withdrawn.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Philip Kotler

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This academic who works on marketing appears to be notable in the field (he is quoted in the definition in the article on Marketing) but I don't think he reaches VA5 level. He does have 42 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tacyarg (talk) 12:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. czar 15:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 21:07, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Gwen Stefani

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Add Gwen Stefani who is notable for her solo work and as the Lead singer of No Doubt (Gwen Stefani discography/No Doubt discography) Here are the numbers

Stefani: 2 multiplatinum albums, 4 #1 singles as lead and 1 as featured, 1 Grammy

No Doubt: 2 multiplatinum studio albums, 1 multiplatinum compilation, and another platinum album, 1 #1 single, 2 Grammys

Support

1. As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:17, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
3. Support. No doubt she is vital. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Dee Brown (writer)

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This writer is only really known for one book, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. That book is only really remembered because an HBO documentary based on the book won a decent number of awards. There could be an argument made for including the film, and maybe the book, but not the author.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:02, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:14, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 17:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Lipit-Ishtar

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Only known for writing a legal code before Hammurabi did, and not even the first one. I would prefer to add the code before this forgotten figure, although my first choice is to include neither.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 19:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Footnote historical trivia. Non-vital stub. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 13:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Adolph Menzel

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I am nominating this for 2 reasons. He was featured in The Gilded Age (TV series) season 2 episode 3. User:J947 has got me thinking that maybe we should have more visual artists.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Ummmu. Weak support if there is quota to fill. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Along with Caspar David Friedrich, he is considered one of the two most prominent German painters of the 19th century: probably an overstatement, but Friedrich being VA4... J947 ‡ ^edits 11:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
5. We have a lot of visual artists, but sure Menzel is an influential realist painter. The Blue Rider 13:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:19, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
7. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
8. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Move or Remove Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March

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Right now Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March is listed at, of all things, SOCIALITES. A quick scan of this article indicates politicians, military leaders or activists (which, you may be aware, I don't really consider separate categories) would all be better fits. However, does he belong as a vital article at all? His main claim to vitality seems to be that he was de facto ruler of England for a bit. pbp 21:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Retain as a socialite

Move to political leaders

Move to military leaders

Move to activists

Remove outright

1. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:59, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. not very vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:07, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Move Józef Ignacy Kraszewski  5

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From Historians to Writers. I am slowly improving this to GA, and TL;DR he is much better remembered for being a writer than a historian. He is a vital writer but historian, not so much. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. (Or just do it yourself as you know best.) J947 ‡ ^edits 11:09, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. --Makkool (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Ling Lun

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User:Levivich opined at WT:VA that this is a glaring VA omission as he is the founder of music in China. I noted that he only had 23 incoming links, 5 interwikis, and his 90-day average pageviews is below 30 per day. User:J947 was a dubious discussant on the matter. I am throwing this out there.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 22:15, December 29, 2023 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:39, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. --Makkool (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. RoseParade LJ (talk) 04:33, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

   User:RoseParade LJ, Nominator is in absentia or neutral.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Interesting but given the stubby size, few interwikis and page views, it seems more like trivia. Not all 'legendary people' are vital, some legends are pretty niche, and this one does not look great. I'd be happy to reconsider this if the article is improved and has some better claims of significance. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:12, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Not even zh. has a good article about it. Levivich is most likely mistaken, not a glaring ommision by any standard. The Blue Rider 13:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per TBR. If it's a stub on zh.wiki, how important can this person be? starship.paint (RUN) 13:15, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Michael Palin and Terry Jones

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I don't think Monty Python also deserves 6 individual spaces. These guys seem the least vital. Probably could be trimmed further.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:13, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Both as nom. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:13, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Both czar 15:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Both per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:24, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Jones per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:41, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support both. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Per TonyTheTiger. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Palin Palin had a pretty long career after his time in Python, especially as a TV presenter. I would rather remove another member. Terry Gilliam or Eric Idle maybe? - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:41, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Ed Begley

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He won a couple of awards, but the Actors section and its parent section Entertainers are well over the quota and I really don't see the lasting influence.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Not vital. The Blue Rider 13:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 18:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Swap Pietru Caxaro for Zera Yacob (philosopher)

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"Peter Caxaro was virtually unknown[2] until he was made famous in 1968 by the publication of his Cantilena by the Dominican Mikiel Fsadni and Godfrey Wettinger." He seems to be an obscure figure who is only listed for apparently being the first known philosopher with surviving works from a small European country (Malta). OTOH, we have entire continents whose philosophers are vastly more underrepresented, which takes me to my addition proposal, Zera Yacob. As it stands, there are no sub-Saharan African philosophers listed for the pre-modern era, and Zera Yacob is maybe the most well-known representative of the precolonial Ethiopian philosophical tradition, Ethiopia being of course far larger than Malta.

Support

1. As nom Totalibe (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Makkool (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
4. makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove John D. Burgess

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I proposed this as a potential swap for Li Yundi above but since that seems like it will pass regardless, I would like to submit this as a separate proposal. 1 interwiki and doesn't even seem particularly notable as a bagpiper, let alone as a standalone vital figure. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Is this proposal even necessary though? I see a lot of swap votes in the Li Yundi discussion. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Oh you're right - I guess I'm not familiar with the rules in this case, where the original proposal gets a passing number of votes but so does an alternate swap proposal. I probably shouldn't have muddied that thread up. This could be a redundant vote but better to be safe than sorry I guess. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Support --Makkool (talk) 16:34, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap John D. Burgess for Li Yundi

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I would like to nominate the world-renowned Chinese pianist Li Yundi, as he has profound impacts in the classical music field.

1) youngest first-prize winner and youngest jury member of the International Chopin Piano Competition, being regarded as Master of Chopin by notable commenters

2) signed with Deutsche Grammophon and Warner Classics, and his numerous albums are greatly recognised internationally e.g. his album "Liszt" received the German Echo Klassik Solo Recording of the Year Solistische Einspielung des Jahres, as well as being named an “Annual Recommendation” by The New York Times.

3) awardee of both silver and gold Medal for Merit to Culture - Gloria Artis , highest honour in recognition to culture, issued by the Ministry of Culture and National Heritage of the Republic of Poland --EleniXDD (talk) 14:47, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. -EleniXDD (talk) 14:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Yundi is most notable for his outstanding interpretation of Chopin, and is considered Master in Chopin. I support to put Yundi in the list. RoseParade LJ (talk) 04:24, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Swap with John D. Burgess, otherwise support. Reasoning provided below. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:50, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Swap with John D. Burgess Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Swap with Burgess, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
6. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The other pianists on this list are considered some of the greatest of all time; I feel like it is still very much too early to tell whether Li Yundi will fall within that category. Further, the prestige of the awards that Li Yundi has won so far and the number of awards he's won is much less than the other pianists we list. The number of interwikis (23) is also generally less than that of the other pianists. We are overquota on Artists so I feel like in order for a pianist to warrant a spot on VA5, they need to either have a history of groundbreaking recordings that are still relevant to this very day (like Glenn Gould  4's interpretations of Bach), achieve global celebrity such that they verge on being a household name (like Lang Lang  5), or be famous for something else notable (like Ignacy Jan Paderewski  5). Li Yundi doesn't satisfy any of these criteria yet. If you feel like there is another pianist who we can replace here, I would be happy to consider a swap. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:34, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

   After careful looking at some of the pianists in the list, I think quite a number of them have an interwiki link of 23 ( e.g. Wilhelm Backhaus, Mitsuko Uchida) same as Yundi. Actually, the awards Yundi won are very prestigious aka International Chopin Piano Competition In fact, Yundi has more prestigious awards than some of the pianists listed in the list ( e.g.Liberace, Lang Lang) His albums and recordings are internationally recognised. (Listed in my reasonings Also e.g. first Chopin passport recipient, first Chinese pianist receiving highest honour Medal for Merit to Culture - Gloria Artis from Polish government) and his versions are regarded as one of the best interpretations in Chopin pieces. (I have updated his wiki page with some music reviews sources in different languages !!) And he is a household name e.g. China, Poland, Japan, (maybe not so in US, but US doesn’t represent the world).

   I appreciate your suggestion of swapping, and I think some of the pianists in the list can be swapped. Maybe I name one first. I think Friedrich Kalkbrenner should not be listed in the pianist list. He is a more well-known Romantic period composer, so he should be placed in the Romantic composer list. And Yundi can take the position. (I can list a few more if you disagree with this choice) Looking forward to your reply. EleniXDD (talk) 05:58, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

   We no longer have subquotas anymore so unfortunately moving Friedrich Kalkbrenner to a different section on the same page won't fix the quota issue. However, I did find John D. Burgess in the Bagpipes section who can be removed. He only has 1 interwiki and doesn't seem to have been that notable or known at all.

   I think your reasoning for including Li Yundi looks good to me. I'll withdraw and support a swap with Burgess so we don't inflate the quota. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

   I agree with your suggestion of swapping with Burgess. EleniXDD (talk) 16:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• User:Aurangzebra maybe we can continue our discussion in the discussion section XD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EleniXDD (talk • contribs) 05:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

1. Sorry just saw this but answered you above! Aurangzebra (talk) 04:50, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

   thanks for the reply :) EleniXDD (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• I wonder if User:Gerda Arendt has any thoughts on this, and maybe she would like to propose some other changes (additons, swaps, removals) here? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

  sorry, no, I don't distinguish - what's vital for one is "never heard of" for another, and I wonder if readers read differently because of that distinction that - other than GA and FA - doesn't show for an article --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

  Such a negativistic view...currently the project is for editors, not readers. WP:VT, like GA and FA, is a subjective measure but we try to have standards and rules to minimize this subjectivity as much as possible. The Blue Rider 21:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove or move Jim Carroll

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This guy is definitely not vital as a writer. He has only written two books. Neither book was very popular or influential, and the movie adaptation of the first book was also not very influential or popular. Not every writer who had their book made into a movie is vital. If he has any chance at vitality, it may be as a musician, but I doubt it since they do not have nearly as much of an argument as many other groups we have removed from the list in the past.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

   User:QuicoleJR, I presume this is support to remove as opposed to move, but please clarify explicitly.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

   That is correct. I support removing him entirely. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Support remove.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
3. czar 17:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support remove --Makkool (talk) 20:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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American activist removals and moves

With 135ish people on the list, the number of American activists listed is horrendously bloated, especially since the activists et al section is over quota. Several activists are also miscategorized. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger:, @Czar:, @Aurangzebra: @Grnrchst:, and anybody who voted Oppose on these, I respectfully need you to consider the following:

1. The activists et. al section is over quota, and the American activists VA5 section is 9.3x the size of the American activists VA4 section despite VA5. To remedy this, you either a) need to support my removal proposals, b) make alternate removal proposals, or c) ask that the quota be increased (which I would oppose). The status quo ante is unacceptable.
2. We recently removed a number of mainstream American politicians such as John Kerry from the VA5 list. John Kerry has 86 interwiki links and was the nominee of a major political party. How do you square removing Kerry, but keeping some of these activists who often represent radical, fringe or single-issue viewpoints, and frequently have 50 FEWER interwikis? Seems hypocritical to me as I find Kerry and others of the recently-removed VA5 politicians CLEARLY more vital pbp 18:36, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me. Getting aggressively badgered was already why I haven't been around here this past month or so. If you don't like the way I voted, that's fine, but please stop having a go at people every time you disagree with them. It's not constructive and just results in this talk page becoming a battleground. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

I must agree, some people here are way too comfortable constantly mass pinging users. The Blue Rider 00:58, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The first argument is simply fallacious, you're shifting the burden, when in fact none of the opposers are in any obligation to do anything to remedy the bloat. Related to the second argument, ever since those politicians got removed you have been making silly comparisons to why some proposals should get removed because they are not nearly as vital, according to you, than the politicians. John Kerry has a lot of interwikis because he is an contemporary american politician so that doesn't translate to vitality. Other than losing a presidential elections what has he done? Practically nothing. Fringe, radical or single-issue viewpoints are still impactful, a lot of the proposals are anarchists and these people normally take concrete extreme actions that have a lot of repercussions. The Blue Rider 00:58, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Firstly can I note that I find that first sentence odd. If you acknowledge there is bloat, why should you oppose remedying it? Of course there's no obligation to do so, but I think you might be misinterpreting pbp. The imperative sentence starts with the condition To remedy this,: i.e., only if you want to remedy this anyway.

I think you've got it on the nose why politicians tend to be less vital than their notoriety might suggest: it's more heat than light. We list very few modern American politicians for this reason. However... I think you're underestimating the influence that a presidential candidate has, pretty much by virtue of being a presidential candidate. A lot of it is populistic fracas we don't really care about in an encylopaedia, but there's a big chunk that isn't: how a political campaign shapes worldviews, how failure or some mild successes when the election comes around influences the trajectory of their political party and by extension the country, in a volatile governance system in the world's second-largest democracy. If one were to step back, in terms of sheer weight Kerry's influence is much much greater than Madalyn Murray O'Hair's strong influence on a small portion of society. I'm not even saying Kerry is more vital than O'Hair; in fact, I am unsure about that myself. It's just that in terms of one measure of vitality, bald influence, Kerry comes up trumps ten times out of ten. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:47, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

If there is a bloat but you don't agree on the proposals, you obviously don't have to support it and you might also not agree with pbp's overall approach; people can just come to this project vote oppose on some entries and leave, no need to call people hypocrites for it.

In order to have influence on the world that is on pair with vitality, 9 times out of 10, you absolutely need to actually win the position, otherwise just the lobbying and other interests behind the candidacy is not nearly enough. A political campaign will have some influence but it is not even closely the most important, the actual president will ultimately influence more people, thus countering John Kerry's impact. Lastly, a political party being smally determined by a political campaign is not what I would consider vital; even looking at these factors all combined, still no. The Blue Rider 13:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

You said 9 times out of 10, you have to hold political office to be influential. Consider this:

1. The politicians we have DID hold political office. The ones that weren't president were in Congress, the Cabinet or the governor's office. For example, John Kerry was Secretary of State and chair of a powerful U.S. Senate committee. I can give examples of the offices held of almost any present or past VA5 American politician.
2. The activists we have DIDN'T hold political office. Many of them either never sought political office, or ran on minor-party lines that had no chance of getting elected. As you yourself said, not holding political office limits your influence.

pbp 16:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

When I say 9 out 10, I'm thinking of cases like the 2000 United States presidential election in Florida where the controversy led to major legal and political repercussions. Activist exercise their influence through politics but they don't need to have political positions, consider Jeremy Bentham  4, Quakers  4 and Emma Goldman  4. If you are able to say specific things that John Kerry has done or influenced instead of just political positions then I might change my mind. The Blue Rider 16:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

To review about John Kerry

…he was an anti-Vietnam War protestor, one that was afforded a lot of credence because he was a veteran

…in the Senate, he led hearings investigating the drug wars in Latin America and the Iran-Contra deal

…he was Chair of the Senate Foreign Relations committee for four years

…he was Secretary of State when the U.S. negotiated the Iran anti-nuclear deal

…“I voted for the Iraq War before I voted against it”. Kerry is perhaps the most notable of a group of Democratic politicians who supported the Afghanistan and Iraq wars at the height of George W. Bush’s popularity but later walked back support of the Iraq War.

…he was the American representative at many of the international climate talks in the Obama and Biden eras.

All in all, in terms of foreign affairs since 1980, you’ve gotta classify Kerry as one of the five most influential Americans who weren’t president. And even if you don’t consider losing a presidential election VA5-worthy (I happen TO), there are certain elections that are “lose the election, win the future.” We kept Barry Goldwater because 1964 turned out that way, and there’s a bit of an argument that 2004 was that way too, as Kerry is the most recent Democrat to lose the popular vote. pbp 19:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. If you propose adding John Kerry, I will propably support. The Blue Rider 17:58, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove William T. Anderson

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We have Quantrill to represent Confederate guerrillas pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. 16 interwikis, I call American history trivia. Not important outside US. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:30, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

   I don't think importance outside the US is a damning factor. I don't think most people outside of the US and who aren't familiar with the history of gay rights would know Harvey Milk  4 for example, and yet he is a pretty uncontentious Level 4. You can read through his legacy section - literally all of it is America-focused and his LGBT activism did not really extend beyond the US.

   For the same reasons, I don't think interwikis is a perfect factor for measuring importance - Harvey Milk "only" has 50 for example which is lower than almost every other biography on the Level 4 list (and lower than some of the nominees on this talk page who haven't been listed yet!). Also, William Quantrill, who even pbp seems to indicate is vital above, has even fewer interwikis than Anderson. He only has 13. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

3. Quantrill seems sufficient. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:27, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 17:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. He seems quite notorious.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:45, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

   Do we need both Anderson AND Quantrill at VA5? pbp 05:28, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. I do believe both Quantrill and Anderson achieved equal levels of notoriety and impact but I don't want to vote on this because that could be my American bias showing. If we really, really need to cut down on American activists, I can weak support but only after we've culled the rest of the list. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove James Bevel

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We have MLK Jr and Abernathy and A. Philip Randolph and John Lewis and several others from the Civil Rights movement. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Certainly not as vital as the above-mentioned civil rights leaders. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Because I have not heard of this guy and we seem pressed on quota.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:33, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Just 7 interwikis suggest this is American history trivia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Voltairine de Cleyre  5

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Too obscure to be VA5 pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Where does this obscure claim come from? She has more interwikis (27) than a lot of people I know of and some I don't: Ruby Bridges  5 (23), Nancy Brinker  5 (6), Anita Bryant  5 (24), Claudette Colvin (23), Patrisse Cullors  5 (18), Barbara Gittings  5 (14) and Anita Hill  5 (18). I am not going to keep going down the alphabetical list, but you get the point.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

   On the other hand, John Kerry has 86...

   Most of the American politicians we removed have more than 27. Perhaps this is more a reason to remove the people you've listed than to keep Cleyre pbp 13:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

   I am just doubting that she is properly selected from this list for removal. Kerry is a different comparison. She seem to be less obscure than many if not most women on this list.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Prominent and vital to early anarcha-feminism czar 15:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Eldridge Cleaver  5 and Geronimo Pratt

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We have Huey Newton, Mumia Abu-Jamal and Fred Hampton from the Black Panthers pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support PrattTonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:37, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Pratt only Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removing Prat. Definitely not as vital as other Panthers. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:53, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Support Pratt per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removing Eldridge Cleaver per Aurangzebra. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose removing Cleaver. Worth noting that Google Ngrams indicates Cleaver is actually the most referenced of the three Black Panther leaders.[1] --Grnrchst (talk) 10:53, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose Cleaver per Aurangzebra and Grnrchst. I would rather remove Abu-Jamal instead. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. This may need to be split up. I support removing Geronimo Pratt but do not support removing Eldridge Cleaver whose level of influence in the Black Panther Party was only matched by Huey Newton and Bobby Seale. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove The individual members of the Chicago Seven  5 : Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin and Bobby Seale  5

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These three don't need to be listed individually if the Seven is listed as a group pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Rubin and Hoffman.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom, remove all starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. All three of these are highly notable figures in their own right. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. I think these need to be split up further. I oppose removing Bobby Seale since he was one of the founders and key figures of the Black Panther party and the black power movement in general. Also, hate to be that guy but technically he wasn't even part of the Chicago Seven, he was part of the Chicago Eight, so it might be better to move him out of that subcategory. However, I agree that Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin can be removed. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

This somewhat begs the question of how many Black Panthers do we need at this level. Mumia Abu-Jamal was nominated for removal but retained. If you want to keep Seale and Cleaver are you OK with Hampton being removed? Obviously Huey Newton stays. I feel like four is too many for the Black Panthers...four articles is 8-10 years worth of VA politicians. pbp 15:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yea that's fair. I would be OK (albeit weakly) with removing Hampton. I would also be OK with him getting moved to Victims - I feel like his fame came more his assassination and the lasting legacy of COINTELPRO and FBI involvement in the civil rights movement as opposed to his activism. I think people tend to think he was more important to the Black Panther Party than he actually was because of some recent movies (like Judas and the Black Messiah). I would have also voted to remove Mumia Abu-Jamal but I guess people don't agree with that. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:08, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Claudette Colvin

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Lesser-known Rosa Parks pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. probably need one of Colvin, Browder v. Gayle and Montgomery bus boycott  5.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:49, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Move Sanford Dole to politicians/Hawaii

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Was President and Governor of Hawaii. Put him in the same subsection as Liliuokalani pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
4. There are a few under the activists section in general (outside of the US) that should be moved to politicians. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Andrea Dworkin  5

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Obscure 2nd/3rd wave feminist pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think she is more well-known than you give her credit for and was very influential in the radical feminism and anti-pornography movements. She also has way more interwikis than the average American activist on this list and a decent amount of monthly pageviews. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Absolutely is not an obscure figure Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Not an obscure figure, she's had quite the impact on the anti-SW and anti-porn tendencies within modern radical feminism. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:53, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 17:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove David Duke  5 and William Luther Pierce

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The Klan and white nationalism still have Hiram Wesley Evans  5 and George Lincoln Rockwell  5 pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support both. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom, support both. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Pierce, Oppose Duke-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I would remove Rockwell before either of these. David Duke was easily the most publically recognizable figurehead of American white supremacists until around the 2010s and The Turner Diaries is perhaps the most influential white supremacist work of the late 20th century and has been tied to the perpetrators of numerous terror attacks. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. Also one that I think needs to split. I support removing William Luther Pierce but I do not support removing David Duke who is widely considered to be the figurehead for making the far-right movement popular again in the United States. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Daniel Ellsberg  5

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The Pentagon Papers themselves are more vital than he is pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. One of the first activists (if not the first major case?) to use military leaks for the purpose of domestic political activism. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Luigi Galleani  5 or move to European activists

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Support removal

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I am conflicted between move/remove but I slightly lean removal. His philosophy was important in early 20th century but was generally localized to the northeast US and he has since been forgotten. Besides, this philosophy is better espoused by Sacco and Vanzetti  5 who are already in VA5. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support move

1. I'd support a move, but not to European activists (his centre of activities was undoubtedly the US). Instead, I'd propose moving him to the terrorism category, as he and his followers were responsible for some of the deadliest terrorist attacks in US history, which killed dozens of people and injured over 100 more, contributing to the First Red Scare. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:36, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Moving is better than removing for this one. Galleani is a preeminent name in early terrorism, and ostensibly he is better known for that than "activism". Alternatively I'd support a swap for Galleanisti since his followers and their acts as Galleani's legacy are more historically prominent and influential than Galleani the figure himself. But as a concept together, Galleani and his followers are associated with the most prominent streak of terrorism in the US. czar 15:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. I'm not sure why this is being discussed in the same way as a removal since there are not subquotas on different regions here, so moving makes to Europe makes no difference from a quota standpoint.

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Move Sylvester Graham  5 to scientists

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The Graham of the Graham cracker, probably should be under scientists, classified similarly to Robert Atkins pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I believe he is more known for preaching the virtues of vegetarianism than he is any of his scientific discoveries (he may have created the Graham cracker/graham bread/graham flour but none of these really required scientific novelty). He also wasn't even considered a scientist (scientist is not mentioned on his wiki article). Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Agree with Aurangzebra. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Just want to point out that Sylvester Graham didn't actually create the Graham cracker, Graham flour or Graham bread. These were all named after him, not invented by him. It's a common mistake but should be pointed out. He was no scientist. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:42, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 17:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Move or Remove Doc Holliday  5

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Move to law enforcement or delete outright pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support move to law enforcement

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Definitely should be moved to law enforcement. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:24, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Support removal

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove T. R. M. Howard

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Not as prominent as Medgar Evers or Jesse Jackson pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 20:15, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Just 4 interwikis. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:35, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
6. a notch below.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:17, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Move Jesse James  5 to criminals

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Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. While he was also a revolutionary, he is more known for his criminal acts. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. To be honest I wasn't even really aware he was much else other than an outlaw. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove George Jackson (activist)

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Trivia tbh; we don't need every guy who shot a cop pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I believe he is somewhat notable for his founding of the Black Guerrilla Family prison gang but definitely not VA5-level. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Move or remove Lady Bird Johnson

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Either needs to be moved to politicians or socialites or deleted outright pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support move to politicians

Support move to socialites

Support removal

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Yea not really sure what activism she achieved that was notable enough to warrant a VA5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Definitely among the top quintile of FLOTUS performances, but not vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Move or Remove Brewster Kahle  5

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Needs to be moved to computer scientists; had previously been nominated for removal but it hung 2-2 pbp 15:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support move to computer scientists

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support removal

1. Weakly. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:35, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Internet Archive  5 is VA5. Its founder is not.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The stuff he has done is not notable in a computer science sense (he didn't invent some groundbreaking software/hardware/algorithm/paradigm shift), it is notable in an advocacy sense. If people like Larry Page  5 and Sergey Brin  5 go under Businesspeople and not Computer Science, then Kahle should be in activism and not computer science as well. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. Should be moved to Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers,_historians,_political_and_social_scientists#Library_science_and_curators rather than computer science, if kept (and I'm not convinced he should). Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Frank Kameny  5 and Craig Rodwell

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We have several other gay rights activists pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support both. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Craig Rodwell only as a little-known figure outside of LGBT history.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Totalibe (talk • contribs) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:57, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
5. remove both per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Support Rodwell-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Frank Kameny as a figure much more well-known than Rodwell, with an activist career encompassing much of the history of the US gay rights movement, spanning from the 1950s through the late 20th century. Although we aren't lising articles solely based on milestones, him being the first ever openly gay congressional candidate in addition to the longevity of his other work helps his case tbh. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per Totalibe.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose Kameny per Totalibe. Neutral on Rodwell. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Maulana Karenga

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The Kwanzaa holiday is more notable than he specifically pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom, and OK for swap. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap for Kwanzaa – major omission czar 17:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Swap for Kwanzaa, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:10, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Hard to address since Kwanzaa not vital. If Kwanzaa was VA4, keep. However, one of these probably should be VA5. I think Kwanzaa is the better candidate.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:04, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. Not sure about this one especially since Kwanzaa isn't on VA5 so will hold off on voting for now. Slightly leaning Support since Kwanzaa is a fairly niche American holiday but will reassess as this gets more input. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Swap with Kwanzaa, I think. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

   I think I would prefer a swap as well. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Yuri Kochiyama

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Too obscure pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom but only if we keep Fred Korematsu. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:09, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Fred Korematsu  5

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The Korematsu case is more relevant than Fred Korematsu the dude pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, or swap with the case. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. On top of his activism, he was also the basis for the court case Korematsu v. United States which was a landmark case and known as one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever. I don't think that fact by itself is worthy of VA5 but, combined with his activism, it tips him over the edge. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Especially as we don't even list Korematsu v. United States. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose per above, although I could support a swap with the court case. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:08, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Rodney King  5

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Riots > he specifically. And Piotrus or whoever would say even the riots were a local event pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I do think indeed that he is redundant to our listing of 1992 Los Angeles riots  5. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. If people like Mohamed Bouazizi are considered VA5, surely Rodney King should be as well. Also, the 1992 Los Angeles Riots may not have been a global phenomenon but they did serve as a watershed VA5-worthy moment in American history with regards to police brutality. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Move to Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Victims instead since there's a free slot, and he didn't intentionally set out to become an activist. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per Totalibe.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Joseph Lowery

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Mostly was a sidekick to other Civil Rights leaders pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
5. czar 17:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Length of efforts for the cause.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Russell Means  5

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We have Banks and Mankiller to represent postwar Native American rights pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. High pageview and interwiki count. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Notable native agent.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger: You've voted oppose on a lot of these: are you really OK with American activists being so bloated? How many activists do you believe are vital from certain areas of activism? Do you believe the activists you want kept to be more notable than the politicians that have recently been removed pbp 05:32, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

   [[User:Purplebackpack89], Impactful activists change the world.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

3. Means being both an activist and a prominent actor later on gives him enough for this level IMO. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:47, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Johann Most  5

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Too obscure, a lot of his notability seems to be from being the granddad of the Celtics' broadcaster pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Even less notable than Luigi Galleani who basically did the same things. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Most popularised propaganda of the deed, an idea that resulted in the assassination of several heads of states and governments, including a US president, a French president and an Italian king, among others. I can only express surprise at the idea that his notability comes from one of his grandchildren. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:29, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

   Does that make him more notable than John Kerry or some of the other politicians we've removed? pbp 15:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose. The article needs updating but the subject is the "father of terrorism" and was the preeminent figure in the US anarchist/socialist/labor movement (Most–Grottkau debate) prior to Emma Goldman  4 and Alexander Berkman  5. V5 is appropriate. czar 14:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Madalyn Murray O'Hair

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Too obscure pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support since she did inspire a modern disentanglement between religion and state in the US. However, I agree this is too localized. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:32, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose as number of interwikis suggests a more worldwide notability. Totalibe (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Elizabeth Packard

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Too obscure pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Hate to be using raw pageviews as a measure here but Packard has few (and only 3 interwikis) when many of the others proposed for removal have heaps. J947 ‡ ^edits 20:21, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Lesser-known compared to many of the others listed here Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Lucy Parsons  5

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We have other people who represent the 19th century labor movement pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Easily the most significant African-American anarchist, at least of her time. Totalibe (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

   In fact, I'd argue she's more notable than Voltairine de Cleyre, another anarchist figure who is also nominated but has recieved mostly opposes. Totalibe (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Per Totalibe (very surprised by the depth and breadth of this bio).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. She's a pretty central figure in the early American labor movement, from her role in the Haymarket affair, to the founding of the IWW to the early communist movement. That she was a woman of color at this time is certainly worthy of note. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Pinging article's main contributor, @Mujinga: do you think Parsons' biography is vital to the encyclopedia? --Grnrchst (talk) 13:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

  In comparison to the other late modern activists listed. J947 ‡ ^edits 20:18, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Sylvia Rivera

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If we keep Marsha P. Johnson, we can remove Sylvia Rivera pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I seem to have been asked for clarification and expansion on my rationale. There is significant overlap in Johnson and Rivera's advocacy. They both came out of the New York trans community, participated in the same demonstrations, and co-founded the same organization. pbp 22:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. seems a little less vital than her friend, Johnson, and thus a bit below VA5 level of vitality.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:48, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I really don't get the argument that having one figure in a certain field listed means that others should not be listed. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

   @Totalibe: Having a second figure from a particular field or issue or cause or whatnot limits the diversity and breadth of the list because it prevents a first figure from a different issue being added. Also, if you go from the most influential person of a movement to the 2nd to the 3rd and down and down, there is diminishing vitality.

   To Rivera and Johnson specifically, there is significant overlap in their advocacy. They both came out of the New York trans community, participated in the same demostrations, and co-founded the same organization. pbp 22:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

   Even so it seems like a strange suggestion given that there are several more figures listed here who are much more obscure and also share the same field with other entries. Sylvia Rivera in particular is listed among only 20 bios on the core topics list for the LGBT studies WikiProject. Totalibe (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Move Paul Robeson  5 to singers

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Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:42, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Bayard Rustin  5

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This may be controversial because he’s got a film out rn, but he mostly was a sidekick to other Civil Rights leaders pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think the triple whammy of being impactful in civil rights, gay rights, and labor rights activism makes him worthy of inclusion. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. As above his impact goes beyond the Civil Rights Movement. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Betty Shabazz

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Not vital expect for being married to Malcolm X pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 20:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
5. In this case, I imagine a lot much of her fame is being driven by the circumstances surrounding her death rather than her advocacy. Totalibe (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Assata Shakur  5

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Again, don't need everybody who shot a cop pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Easily one of the most high-profile political fugitives from the 1970s. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per Totalibe-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Samantha Smith  5

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Trivia tbh pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Was going to Support but seems like she's very notable in Russia and also has a whopping 50 interwikis. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Valerie Solanas  5

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We have other 2nd wave feminists pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Her SCUM Manifesto is notable globally in radical feminism. It has 20 interwikis which may not seem like a lot but for an American radical feminist manifesto, it is quite telling. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. We may have other second wave feminists, but do we have other second wave radical feminists? Solanas is certainly influential enough to be on any vital articles list, with 37 interwikis for her own biography. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above, she continues to be a notorious figure Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove William Still

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We have others associated with abolitionism and the Underground Railroad pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Lesser-known compared to many of the others listed here Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

1. User:Purplebackpack89, who are these others. 600+ freed slaves seems pretty phenominal.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:04, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger: Excluding anything that's up for removal right now, there are SEVEN other American abolitionists at VA5: John Brown, Frederick Douglass, William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Jacobs, Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman and Theodore Dwight Weld. Harriet Tubman, like Still, was also known for freeing hundreds of slaves pbp 12:26, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

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Move Sundance Kid  5 to criminals

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Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Would even consider him for removal, he is overshadowed in importance by Butch Cassidy  5. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Move or remove Mary Surratt

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Move to criminals or remove outright; executed for supposed role in Lincoln assassination. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support move

Support remove

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:14, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Lorrin A. Thurston

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Sanford Dole is enough to represent the white guy takeover of Hawaii pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:20, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove William Monroe Trotter

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We have others from this period of African-American civil rights; not on the level of Booker T, DuBois, Garvey, James Weldon Johnson or Walter White pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Lesser-known compared to many of the others listed here Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Lillian Wald

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We have Jane Addams  4 from the settlement house movement pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Lesser-known compared to many of the others listed here Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. She is also notable for her public health advocacy and being a pioneer in nursing. So unlike Jane Addams, she is notable in her own right. Also, if removed, she would become one of the only people listed in the Hall of Fame for Great Americans that isn't in the vital articles list. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Move Fredric Wertham  5 to social scientists

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Support

1. pbp 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. His activism was informed by his psychiatry, so it makes sense to move him. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

1. I'd support removal.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

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