Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 5
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| Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
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American bridge jumper. Zero interwikis. His popularity did not carry on after his death.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Not seeing the vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Brodie is enough --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Cleveland Amory
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Only eight interwikis, for those who value them, and only one of his books has an article. The book has no interwikis. This guy is not an important author. There could be an argument to move him to activists, since that is the more important part of his career, but I doubt he is more vital than the activists we have been removing.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:07, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:06, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 17:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 16:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
First Governor of Florida, founder of St. Augustine, Florida 
5, and designer of the first trans-oceanic convoy. Listing here instead of at Politicians because his military career is more vital than his time as Governor, although the latter definitely helped.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Add Kerry Washington
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She has been listed in the Time 100 and earned 2 Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series nominations.
- Support
- As nominator. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:02, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- A brilliant actress no doubt, but I don't see such impact to add her to the list. Besides, we need to cut down on entertainers. Could support a swap with an obvious target for removal. Makkool (talk) 17:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- per Makkool. We should be cutting down. The bar for entertainers is too low at the moment. starship.paint (RUN) 07:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Add Wilhelm Reich
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He was a bit of a crank but also one of the most influential psychologists of the 20th century. His works on societal repression and individual development marked the diffusion of psychoanalysis' insights on sexuality to social psychology and critical theory, inflecting on topics such as power, ideology, and social change. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely a major omission here. Iostn (talk) 21:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- definitely, good catch Aurangzebra (talk) 08:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support per nom. J947 ‡ edits 22:04, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 16:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Patrick Mahomes
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He is now a legend of the game.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Swap with Dan Marino
5 if necessary. By this point it really is erroneous to not have him on here. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Just 27 interwikis, and another reminder that American football doesn't matter outside US. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Recentism. Just because he won a few Super Bowls doesn't mean that he is one of the few quarterbacks who make the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Recentism: Too early to judge topic's enduring importance or essentialness in its category. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Wouldn't be able to say myself, but I doubt at only 28 he has cracked the top 13 quarterbacks in terms of vitality. J947 ‡ edits 06:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Only a few of those guys have won 3 championships. He might already be in the middle of that pack of 13 in many people's eyes. Marino is the greatest to never win one, but may be less vital than Mahomes already. I expect more to come from Mahomes (to my dismay as a Buffalo Bills fan).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- We already have 13 NFL quarterbacks. If he's added, somebody else needs to be removed pbp 19:08, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sportsfigures is only 1% over 1214/1200. Is it imperative to swap. It is hard to say who is weakest. I imagine Marino and Warner may be among the weakest.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Remove Ed Dorn
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Only one interwiki, only one of his works has an article, no indication of vitality. We have too many poets for the U.S. and Canada, and he doesn't make the cut.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:16, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- makes sense, per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:44, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, there needs to be some serious cuts in that section. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:13, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- J947 ‡ edits 22:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 16:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Affirmation of swap for Natalia Poklonskaya with Viktor Yushchenko
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In November 2023 Kammerer55 unilaterally performed the above swap, and TonyTheTiger has protested this. I am bringing up the swap for affirmation on the record. I have included Kammerer55's original rationale below. The swap has already been performed, and if adequately supported, no action needs to be taken beyond closing this thread. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- Natalia Poklonskaya was somewhat notable in Russia and Ukraine during the annexation of Crimea, but she played a minor role in the event and her highest official post was the regional (Crimean) prosecutor general. Instead, I propose to add Viktor Yushchenko, since he is the only Ukrainian president who is missing from the list, and since he was the leader of the Orange Revolution which was one of a few defining moments in modern Ukrainian history. Kammerer55 (talk) - originally written on 03:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
- There's no doubt that this president is more vital than this regional prosecutor / legislator / ambassador. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- This bold swap seems pretty reasonable. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:03, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Agree. Poklonskaya's addition seems to have been due to her brief celebrity status. Not vital. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- @Piotrus, Tabu Makiadi, SailorGardevoir, RekishiEJ, and Aszx5000: - notify all others who participated in the previous thread. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Remove Lew Dockstader
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Zero interwikis. He collaborated with Al Jolson but seems like an otherwise obscure blackface performer.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Not seeing any form of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Brook Taylor 5
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One of the most influential mathematicians of the 18th century. He is best known for developing Taylor's theorem 5 and Taylor series 4, which hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of students learn about every year.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support per nom. J947 ‡ edits 22:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:05, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Rosemary Kennedy
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Even though she is in "case studies" (i.e. abnormals, medical oddities), she is represented by the Kennedy family under politicians. Even if her family wasn't VA, I'm not sure if she would be independently anyway. pbp 17:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 17:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Harvey Weinstein 5 to sex criminals
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- Support
- That's what he's primarily known for now. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- He's pretty much synonymous with sex crimes. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I think he would have been vital even if he wasn’t a serial rapist. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- per SailorGardevoir. He is definitely more well-known for sex crimes but he would have been vital regardless for being a pioneer in indie film production and showing that indie films could also be box office hits with his work at Miramax. Aurangzebra (talk) 11:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose --Thi (talk) 09:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- As a note: if this gets voted for, then Jimmy Savile 5 should probably be moved as well. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- See, that’s my main reason why I’m against moving him. I feel like the sex criminal section should be reserved for people whose vitality solely rests on being sex criminals. Guys like Weinstein, Savile, R. Kelly 5, and especially Bill Cosby 4 would have been on here regardless of them being revealed to be horrific monsters. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- See, that’s my main reason why I’m against moving him. I feel like the sex criminal section should be reserved for people whose vitality solely rests on being sex criminals. Guys like Weinstein, Savile, R. Kelly
Non-American activist proposals
Since I have noted that a lot of the listings in the activist section other than the US also needs big changes, I will begin listing proposals here. Note that I won't be focusing entirely on removals, as I think there are a lot of other potential articles to be listed that are more appropriate than those there currently.
Swap Dennis Brutus for Joe Slovo
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Joe Slovo was a much more prominent anti-apartheid activist, as one of the leading members of the African National Congress, South African Communist Party and uMkhonto we Sizwe.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:29, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume (talk) 01:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Move Julius Malema 5 to politicians and leaders
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Someone who is most famous and leader of a (legal) political party should definitely be listed there and not here.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Add Samuel Maharero
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"Paramount Chief of the Herero people in German South West Africa (today Namibia) during their revolts and in connection with the events surrounding the Herero genocide. Today he is considered a national hero in Namibia." - seems like a very good pick for reducing sysbias.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Definitely a vital subject for the encyclopedia. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support as politician/leader Title "paramount chief" screams politician/leader to me. Compare Tecumseh or Powhatan.pbp 19:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Move Lucien Bouchard 5 to politicians and leaders
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Same rationale as Julius Malema
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
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The Famous Five were a group of five suffragists who fought the right of women to be recognized as "qualified persons" under Canadian electoral law. Of course, Canada is far from the only place where the struggle for women's suffrage was taking place, so listing this many for Canada alone seems rather disproportionate. I support keeping Nellie McClung and Emily Murphy as those two appear to be the most notable in their own right, but the others I think should be replaced with the umbrella article.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Makes sense. Don't think we need every one of the "famous five" individually listed. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- agreed Aurangzebra (talk) 22:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume (talk) 01:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Comrade Artemio
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One of the post-Gonzalo leaders of Shining Path, a Peruvian guerilla group which effectively collapsed as a major force after Gonzalo was captured. I don't think we need anyone other than Gonzalo himself to represent them.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely wouldn't call any members of the Shining Path other than Gonzalo "vital" to learn about. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
- It was not clear to me who Gonzalo was. Now I see the piping. This should be made clearer.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Move Roberto D'Aubuisson 5 to war criminals or politicians and leaders
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He only seems to be here because of his stint in opposition to the Revolutionary Government Junta of El Salvador (1979-82). I would argue he should be under war criminals as that is what he seems most well-known for and I doubt he would be here if he wasn't known as "Blowtorch Bob", but given he did serve in the legislative assembly for ten years, and as founde of a political party, I can see the argument for politician too.
- Move to war criminals
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Move to politicians
- I think we would need sourcing to support a move to the criminals section, as right now I can't find anything that accuses him of "crimes against humanity" or "war crimes". But as the founder of ARENA, I think moving him to politicians make sense. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per Grnrchst.SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per Grnrchst. starship.paint (RUN) 09:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per above Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Carlos Saavedra Lamas
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I don't think we need to list every lesser-known Nobel Peace Prize winner here.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Agree but it does remind me of something I've noticed in Scientists. We seem to list pretty much every Nobel Prize in Physics winner even those with stubs or hyper-technical contributions that haven't really achieved vitality yet. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume (talk) 15:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Alfonso García Robles
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Same rationale as Carlos Saavedra Lamas
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Augusta La Torre
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Per the policy of having Shining Path represented only by Gonzalo/Guzman, she only seems to be listed as vital for her cult of personality within the organization.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume (talk) 15:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove A. M. Azahari
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Seems to be only listed because of his involvement in the Brunei revolt, which isn't even VA5.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- No assertion of importance in the lead, no legacy or significance. Poor article, I don't see why he is vital - barely notable, I'd say. Sure, sysbias is an issue here, but too early to consider him for vital. I'll add to the lead the stuff you say, however. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- He set events into motion that led to a war between Indonesia and Malaysia and the rise to power of Suharto. I think he makes the cut. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion
Swap Chang Chun-ha for Ahn Chang Ho
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Swapping a lesser-known figure of the Korean independence movement for someone much more prominent.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Ahn Chang Ho is definitely more vital. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume (talk) 15:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Filep Karma
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A West Papuan political prisoner, not much more to say than that. We list Benny Wenda 5, who is more of an actual leader of the West Papuan independence movement. Filep Karma's incarceration and ill treatment attracted outcry, but that sadly isn't that outstanding in the grand scheme of things. The page view count is low as well.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. His story is certainly harrowing, but as nom noted, he doesn't stand out too much from other West Papuan activists. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Edward Leung
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In general Hong Kong seems to be overrepresented here, I count 6 Hong Kongers (pop. ~7.5 million) out of 66 for all of Asia as a whole (pop. ~4.7 billion), and Leung appears generally less prominent than many of the other HK dissidents listed such as Joshua Wong 5 and Agnes Chow 5. Also note the relatively low pageview compared to the others.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Not sure about lasting impact. Hong Kong protests have been snuffed out. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not the best argument, but he doesn’t even have a picture. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Weak oppose. I think being the person that coined the slogan "Liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our times" puts him over the line for me. Although I can see the argument for removal. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Jimmy Sham
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Less prominent than Edward Leung in addition to the HKers I am not proposing for removal. He is also an LGBT rights activists so I guess there is another angle there but even in that I'm not convinced he is internationall prominent enough to tip the scales.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Weak support. Certainly notable, but I'm not sure if vital. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Benny Tai
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The third and final HKer I am proposing for removal, he has the lowest pageviews of all three I have mentioned so far, and lacks the angle of being notable in another area that Jimmy Sham has.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Least controversial HK proposal. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not vital. Gizza (talk) 02:36, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 16:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Ali Shariati 5 to Philosophers,_historians,_political_and_social_scientists#Sociologists
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There is frequently an overlap between "activists" and social scientists in terms of societal critique, but I would argue he fits better under the latter section as his career was primarily that of an academic, and also for the same reason Karl Marx 3 is listed under social sciences.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely should be moved. While Shariati had a huge influence on the revolutionary movement, he is better listed under social scientists. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Baba Amte
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An anti-poverty activist of the type that is often overlooked internationally, but one who was very highly-regarded in India, enough to win numerous official honours and be featured on a national stamp. Also note the high pageviews.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Quite the big name in neo-Gandhism. Interwikis and pageviews indicate a keen interest in him as a subject. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Ayyankali
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"The historian P. Sanal Mohan has described Ayyankali as "the most important leader of modern Kerala"." An important activist for caste rights in India, a subject which is little-discussed in the West, this seems important to counter sysbias.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Abdullah Öcalan 5
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Founder of PKK, a long-running rebel group fighting for Kurdish independence from Turkey, and a major influence upon the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, one of the factions of the Syrian Civil War. For comparison, we already list a couple of Turkish communists who are much less well-known than him. I would argue he may be one of the biggest omissions here.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Honestly shocking that he's not already listed. He's up there in terms of the most consequential/influential revolutionaries of the 21st century. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with Grnrchst, it’s pretty bad that we don’t have him. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A major figure in both Japanese anarchism and feminism in the early 20th century, and one who became a major martyr figure after her killing by police, and whose story was adapted into a TV drama in Japan as recently as 2022.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. An iconic figure of the Taisho era revolutionary movement. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Tan Malaka
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One of the most prominent figures of the Indonesian National Revolution, arguably he could go under social scientists or philosophers like Shiarati but I think its safe to say he lived far from the ivory towers for the most part.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely vital as a revolutionary. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Most well-known as an MP for nearly 50 years.
- Support
- Nom.Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely more of a politician than an activist. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:40, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support per nom. J947 ‡ edits 06:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Bramwell Booth
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The second leader of the Salvation Army, he doesn't really seem to stand out in vitality compared to his already-listed father and predecessor.
- Support
- Nom.Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Not necessary when we have William Booth. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- Just want to note that I look forward to the day when we can stop removing activists/revolutionaries and start adding some. I have my eye on quite a few that I would like to see added once we're under-quota. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
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An early Noble Peace Prize winner who is today near-forgotten if pageviews are anything to go by (5-6 per day).
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Randal Cremer
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Similar to previous, but with higher pageviews. He was also part of the same movement which seems overrepresented for European activists, or someone just wanted to add all the 1900s Nobel Peace Prize winners for some reason.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
Remove Élie Ducommun
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Ditto the previous two.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
Remove Charles Albert Gobat
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Ditto the previous four.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Mikhail Kalinin 5 to politicians and leaders
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Someone who is most well-known for being a Soviet head of state should definitely be there not here,
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Mathias Kneißl
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Doesn't seem to be at all known outside of Bavaria.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Anastas Mikoyan 5 to politicians
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Similar to Kalinin, most well-known as a major Soviet politician.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Thi (talk) 09:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Boris Nemtsov 5 to politicians
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I can see the argument for keeping him here, but he was Russian Deputy Prime Minister in the late 1990s. I think "former government minister turned Putin critic/rival" fits more there than here.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Thi (talk) 09:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Louis Renault (jurist)
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More obscure 1900s Nobel Prize winners. My favourite thing.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Grigory Rodchenkov
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I have no idea why he is listed in this section, but regardless I don't he as an individual is vital anyway.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Markus Wolf 5 to Miscellaneous#Law_enforcement_and_fire_service
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No idea why he is here either, but definitely seems vital regardless.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Mikhail Tolstykh for Igor Girkin
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Swapping a lesser-known war criminal for arguably the most important figure among the Donbas separatists.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Martin Niemöller
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Former German reactionary who turned on the Nazis, became a political prisoner, ended up writing one of the most famous antifascist texts and internationally renowned pacifist in the post-war decades.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Thi (talk) 09:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per above. Although, should Niemöller be listed in Religious figures? Dietrich Bonhoeffer 4 is listed there, and he is a similar case of being an opponent to the Nazis and a political prisoner. Makkool (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Errico Malatesta
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He was arguably the singlemost famous anarchist revoluationary in Europe in the late 20th century.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Late 19th/early 20th century but aye. Malatesta was one of the most consequential figures in Italian political history. Not on the level of Giuseppe Garibaldi 4, Benito Mussolini 4 or Antonio Gramsci 4, but definitely vital enough for level 5. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 02:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Various music removals
Remove Nigel North
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Known as a lute player and musicologist - doesn't really seem to stand out much and seems a lot less important than the other lutenist listed next to him.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 10:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Velvel Pasternak
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Musciologist, again nothing here seems that remarkable. Very low pageviews as well.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- 3 pageviews/day is crazy. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 10:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Kate Smith
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Popular during WW2, and wouldn't really stand out much other than that if her performance of God Bless America didn't become popular during sports games - which, against wasn't a song originally composed by her. On a worldwide basis, I don't think she makes the cut.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Impactful enough in the US to warrant consideration with various honors such as the Presidential Medal of Honor but her legacy has only faded with time and we do need to cut down this list. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per above Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 10:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Pērkons (band)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
No assertion of vitality or influence + low pageviews.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Would also consider getting rid of fellow Baltic Vytautas Kernagis who is considered the father of Lithuanian sung poetry but not every father of x needs to be included here especially when none of their works have articles themselves. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per above Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 10:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Zeebra
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Presumably listed here to represent Japanese hip hop, which is relatively minor as a cultural force in Japan. He seems to have been resonably popular in Japan in the 2000s but lasting vitality beyond that, as one of the top 50k Wikipedia articles to focus on feels very tenuous.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Same as above, not every pioneer/father of x needs to be listed especially when the x in question doesn't even have that much national relevance. None of his works have wiki articles. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per above Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 10:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Johnny Hodges
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Nominating on the principle that we don't need to list every "most influential X", he is described as "one of the definitive alto saxophone players of the big band era" but he himself seems less vital than some of the people he played with. Definitely notable, but I don't think vital in his own right.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- 20:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Abdel Karim Karouma
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A semi-stub on an early 20th century musician that doesn't even have 30 views in the past month. Yeah this is one of the easiest picks.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Mahlathini
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
He performed alongside Mahotella Queens 5, a group of the same genre that is also listed at VA5, and seems to be more vital than him, so considering this section is overquota, I think removal makes sense here.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove D2B (band)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Apparently "the number one boy band of all time in Thailand", but other than that there's not much else here to suggest a massive amount of influence. Fairly short-lived as a group and seems to have lower views and interwikis than the other Thai popular music artists listed, I'm inclined to think that this one slipped through based on the "non-English popular music" section being rather uncurated due to the fact it can be hard to assess how truly influential a pop musician is if you are not from the culture they belong to.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Gang of Four (and possibly Zhang Chunqiao, Yao Wenyuan and Wang Hongwen)
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The Gang of Four were a group of four functionaries who were powerful during the later stages of the Cultural Revolution. As it stands Jiang Qing 4, the most well-known figure of the Gang of Four is VA4, but neither the page on the Gang of Four nor any of the other members are VA5. I think Gang of Four should definitely be VA5 at least, the other members are less well-known as individuals but they may count here as well.
- Support Gang of Four only
- Is the Gang of Four vital? Absolutely. Are the other three members beside Jiang Qing vital himself? Eh… SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Jiang Qing is a woman - although if you want to exclude any members I would go for Yao as Zhang and Wang both held positions of being the Vice Premier of the PRC and Vice Chairman of the Communist Party respectively. Afaict Yao's highest-ranking official position was simply being a Politburo member. Iostn (talk) 18:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- I was thinking of nominating this, yes this is vital. The Blue Rider
11:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support Gang of Four plus members
- As nom Iostn (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Swap Kurt Warnekros for Harry Benjamin
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Kurt Warenekros, first of all doesn't even seem to be placed correctly, as he was a surgeon and gynaecologist rather than any kind of social scientist. Even so he as a person seems to be much more obscure than Lili Elbe 5. Harry Benjamin was one of the earliest and most influential researchers on transgender people.
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- EleniXDD※Talk 15:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Australian writers
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Similarly to Australian activists, there has been prominent bloat in the writers section for Australian authors, both prose writers and poets. We list only 2 Australian writers in V4, when in V5 we have over 40. I have selected a few for your consideration to remove. Prose writer s only for now, I'll propose poet articles at a later time.
Remove David Ireland (author)
The least amount of page views of these. Article mentions him being notable for only 1 novel.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Thomas Alexander Browne
Low page views, and mostly known for only 1 novel as well.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Steele Rudd
Low page views. Known for only 1 short story collection.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Henry Handel Richardson
Seems to be less notable or influential than the other woman writers from Australia in the list.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Christina Stead
Mostly known for 1 novel The Man Who Loved Children, which we don't list in V5.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Colin Thiele
Distinguished children's author, but seems less vital than the other Australian children's authors. The article doesn't mention any works that had an impact to Australian literature, or won prestigious awards.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Bradley Trevor Greive
Commercially successful author of gift books, with funny animal photos with captions (The Blue Day Book). I hadn't never heard of these, but the books seem well known. I don't think the author behind them is known, or vital, enough this list.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Morris West
Best-selling novelist, also outside Australia. He doesn't seem to have won any notable awards for his fiction, unlike many of the other writers we list.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Children's writer, whose stories were adapted into the internationally known TV series Round the Twist. It seems like a case, where the author is much less known outside Australia than the show is.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Matthew Reilly
Best-selling action writer. Seems like a similar author to Lee Child, which we don't list in V5.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. The Blue Rider 11:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- I have actually read most of his books, as well as most of Lee Child's. Staying out of this one. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Remove Liane Moriarty
She actually has the highest page view count of these, but hear me out. She seems to be a highly popular author right now, but including her could be a recentist choice. In 20 years she might not be as influential. Another similarly successful woman writer we don't list in Gillian Flynn.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
More musician removals
Remove Robert Davine
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1 interwiki. His contributions to disseminating the accordion were limited to a few recordings and creating a few university departments.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Guy doesn’t even have a RYM page. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- --EleniXDD※Talk 08:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Dave Apollon
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1 interwiki. It seems he had an interesting life and collaborated with some important musicians, but I do not see the vitality here.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Carmel Gunning
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1 interwiki. Irish flute player. Relatively obscure figure.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Christian rap-rock trio. For all the massive influence American popular music has throughout the world, Contemporary Christian music doesn't strike me as very far-reaching, and I say this as someone with a lot of protestant relatives. There are many vital, regionally significant styles that don’t have individual artists, and Christian contemporary has five.
- Support
- Oppose
- They seem pretty important within the CCM genre. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Seems very successful and important. Comparable to popular alternative artists we list. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Keith Green
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Per above.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 15:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Larry Norman 5
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per above.
- Support
- Oppose
- Guy’s called the Father of Christian Rock. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per SailorGardevoir, plus the fact that there is an entire documentary about him. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- More far-reaching than the other Christian artists listed. According to the article, U2 took influence from his music. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Roy Clark
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
He was better known as a TV host than a musician. He had some hits in the country charts through the 1970s, but not to a degree or consistency I would rank as vital.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move to TV personalities in the entertainment page. Both Don Cornelius 5 of Soul Train and Dick Clark 5 of American Bandstand are in that section. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)- Just moved him to TV personalities section. Reading his article, his vitality, if he had any, solely rest on him being the host of Hee Haw. He’s not someone who could technically be placed in different categories but got put in a possibly lesser one; he was outright miscategorized. We can still discuss whether he should still be listed, for which I am neutral. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:42, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Remove Midnight Oil
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think we have have too many rock bands, and these guys were only briefly successful outside of Australia.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Unkown musicians. The Blue Rider 11:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support can't see the Midnight Oil as being more vital than e.g. Akon who was recently removed. Gizza (talk) 04:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Popular in Australia, but a one hit wonder elsewhere. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Weak oppose. I think they are one of the biggest alternative rock acts from Australia. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Paul Oakenfold
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In the 1990s he was twice voted as the best DJ in the world by a UK magazine and collaborated with some of the era’s pop stars, but his own discography seems average and has won only a few awards. If we were not above the quota, I would suggest a swap with Trevor Horn, a more well-known and influential English producer
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with Trevor Horn, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support swap - although, even under electronic music, there are still major omissions that I would list before him/suggest swapping for instead. Still Trevor Horn should be listed. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- He’s probably going to be put under music producers if this swap occurs. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- to be clear I wasn't saying he'd be added to electronic musicians, didn't phrase that clearly enough Iostn (talk) 18:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- He’s probably going to be put under music producers if this swap occurs. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support swap Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Dechen Pem
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I feel harsh calling to remove the only artist in the Dzongkha language, but nothing about her article hints at vitality. It's even a little hard to find her music.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- This feels like it was just listed for the sake of representing Dzongkha/Bhutan, which is known for being one of the most isolated countries in the world and only has a population of around 700k. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- J947 ‡ edits 20:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Souls (band)
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We should probably list more South Asian musicians, but the non-English language popular music selection looks pretty uneven, and removing articles that do not assert vitality is reasonable. 1 interwiki.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with Azam Khan, per Hanif. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with Azam Khan (singer), which the article claims that "he is considered to be one of the greatest artists in the history of Bangladeshi folk music". Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 15:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support swap Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
(Not OP) Swap The Teenagers 5 with either The Drifters or The Platters
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Yes, their profile picture is also being used for our doo-wop page, and they gave us Frankie Lymon and “Why Do Fools Fall in Love”. But their success was really brief and personally not that groundbreaking to warrant them being on here. I think a better representation of doo-wop based on longevity would probably be The Drifters. Admittedly, we already got Clyde McPhatter on here, and I’m using the term “longevity” really loosely due to how often this group trades off its members. (Most infamously, Ben E. King only became a Drifter because their manager fired everyone and then slapped the name on King’s group The Five Crowns.) Because of this, I also fine with adding The Platters, who Tabu Makiadi argued is more vital than Sam & Dave. (Also unlike the Drifters, The Platters were the same group of people throughout their heyday.)
- Support The Drifters
- Support The Platters
- Remove only
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Karl Heinrich Ulrichs 5 to activists
Listed under sexologists, and although he was one, he seems to be more well-known as one of the first gay rights advocates as his primary claim to vitality.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
I see these guys get brought up a lot when it comes to the history of Electronic music 4, especially regarding the development of Synth-pop 5.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'd also support adding Ryuichi Sakamoto who was highly prolific in his own right. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Sex criminal additions
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You could argue Jeffrey Epstein 5 makes this redundant, but I would argue she is also vital in her own right, especially as the only one of the two to actually face a trial.
- Support
- Oppose
- Recentism: Too early to understand the topic's enduring importance or essentialness in its category. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- Neutral. As per my reasoning below, not sure how we can square away adding someone whose vitality relies on a single publicized criminal case when we voted to remove/voted against adding two even more popular cases. Neutral instead of oppose since Maxwell is at least more infamous globally than Tabet below is. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Add Mustapha Tabet
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I found this article while checking List of serial rapists to compare to the serial killers we currently list (serial killers are generally a lot more well-known, maybe that says something, I don't know), and he seems to be highly significant in Morocco, i.e. an underrepresnted country. His case was very high-profile as it came to exemplify abuse of power by authorities in the country, and he remains the last person to be executed in the country decades later.
- Support
- Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- We voted to remove Killing of JonBenét Ramsey recently and voted against adding Disappearance of Madeleine McCann which were arguably way higher-profile global criminal cases. If those don't make the cut, then this shouldn't either. Also if there's one place where I don't think people care about representation, it's being on a list of serial rapists. If we want more North African representation, there are better places to do it. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per Aurangzebra. The Blue Rider 13:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We probably don't need four people from Jackass.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support both --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support Ryan Dunn, oppose Steve-O. Per 49p. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support both czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose For Steve-O Removal, Support For Ryan Dunn Removal I believe that Steve-O is vital enough to be on the list because I think people genuinely know him to be one of the most "shocking" and "gross" stunt performers in the 2000s or 2010s. Regardless of the amount of people from Jackass, I do believe Steve-O's notability outside of the series is well known. Ryan Dunn (RIP) is extreme weak as his career and legacy outside was little compared to the others. Comparing the view counts, I don't think he's very notable. 49p (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Steve-O, support Ryan Dunn removal per 49p. Steve-O has become notable enough in his own right to deserve a slot here. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Add Der Blaue Reiter
A "group" of mainly Germans and Russians expressionist painters, 6 of them vital and others could potentially be added as well - David Burliuk, Paul Klee 4, August Macke 5, Arnold Schoenberg 4, Franz Marc 4 and Wassily Kandinsky 4. The "group" was pioneering for the development of modern art, breaking away from traditional styles to explore abstraction and expressionism, making it an important type of Avant-garde 4. They also produced a vital paiting, Blue Horses 5 (which probably should be removed but sure). The Blue Rider 
01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- The namesake of my username; support as nominator. The Blue Rider 01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Art history is sufficiently covered czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
@The Blue Rider:, Help me put this in context versus other performing artist groups at VA. Where as bands, rap groups and such generally perform jointly despite individual identities, other performing artist affiliations are a bit looser. Bands obviously abound at VA. A rap collective is viewed as a group so N.W.A 5 has a spot in VA. Acting associations such at Rat Pack, and the less vital Frat Pack and Brat Pack are omitted. Visual artist affiliations have a long history. I am not enough of an art historian to really know where to go to find comparables. I think it is more common for artistic movements to get attention at VA. E.g., there was a group of artists that propelled Impressionism 4, but I don't recall if they had a group name. Can you point me to similar artistic affiliation/grouping that is VA?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think we have any artist groups listed yet, but there were plenty through history, School of Paris, COBRA, Nazarene movement, Barbizon School, Die Brücke, etc. The Blue Rider 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- If we are going to include artist groups we should start at the top of that group. Can you convince me that this group is the top of the list of artist groups? If not can you convince me that I should support all groups that are more vital than them as well as them? I am apt to nominate Rat Pack at some point now that I am thinking about this topic.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Der Blaue Reiter is the most vital "art group" of the Expressionism 4 movement followed by Die Brücke. I think I already justified its vitality in the nomination's discussion. The Blue Rider 02:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
- Der Blaue Reiter is the most vital "art group" of the Expressionism
- If we are going to include artist groups we should start at the top of that group. Can you convince me that this group is the top of the list of artist groups? If not can you convince me that I should support all groups that are more vital than them as well as them? I am apt to nominate Rat Pack at some point now that I am thinking about this topic.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Also, is your claim that Der Blaue Reiter is responsible for the Avant-garde cultural movement (which went beyond visual art)?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- No, the avant-garde movement didn't originate from them, but Expressionism 4 is a type of avant-garde. This movement was significantly influenced by the group though.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blue Rider (talk • contribs) 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
P.S. Blue Horses points towards German Expressionism, which it turns out is more broad than an artistic movement and seems different than the Avant-garde movement.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Avant-garde is a leftist social movement aiming to dismantle bourgeois conceptions of art, music, family, and more. This is achieved through various movements such as expressionism, dadaism, and others.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blue Rider (talk • contribs) 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Neutral. My main issue preventing me from supporting what is otherwise pretty important is the same regarding the Rat Pack: A) it’s not an actual group; and B) everyone who’s already on here is significantly more vital than this, rather than just being vital in their own right.SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Formal or informal it was a group, otherwise it wouldn't have a Wikipedia page. The group itself is vital on its own since it was through it that expressionst laid its foundations. The Blue Rider 18:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Formal or informal it was a group, otherwise it wouldn't have a Wikipedia page. The group itself is vital on its own since it was through it that expressionst laid its foundations. The Blue Rider
Swap Joseph Bonaparte 5 for Ferdinand VII
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Going through the list of early-modern Spanish rulers, I quickly noticed Ferdinand VII as a pretty big omission, which made the inclusion of Joseph Bonaparte seem worse. Joseph was little more than a puppet ruler, put in place by his brother, that never gained any favour and wasn't able to do anything while the entire country (and empire) was in revolt against him. During the Peninsular War, guerrillas in Spain and revolutionaries in Latin America both recognised Ferdinand as their rightful constitutional monarch, making him the first such monarch in Spain. Ferdinand's reign after his restoration was characterised by a constant struggle between his absolutist rule and liberal constitutionalism, with both a Liberal period and an ominously-named absolutist period; as well as his attempt to keep the Spanish Empire together, ultimately losing control of Spanish America. When he died, he caused a succession crisis that resulted in the rise of Carlism and ultimately led to a revolution that briefly toppled the monarchy. So while Bonaparte only had a brief and ineffective reign because his brother put him there, Ferdinand had a long and eventful one in which he was a huge presence in many nation- and even world-changing scenarios. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Support adittion per nominator. The Blue Rider 23:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Support addition, oppose removal. Per TheBlueRider. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support addition. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose removal. Joseph was also the King of Naples where he made a series of economic, social and judicial reforms. His reign in Spain lacked popular approval but that precise reason is what makes him vital, his unpopularity ultimately led to the Peninsular War 5 (this should be bumped to level 4, no?). The Blue Rider 23:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Some popular musician removals
Remove Tiny Tim (musician)
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It seems he was considered a camp icon at some point, but I don’t think he’s remembered all that much. He only had one hit single.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- feminist🚰 (talk) 04:16, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 13:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with Spike Jones, otherwise support. I feel like Jones is a lot more remembered than Tiny Tim. He definitely had a much more successful career than him, at least. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove The Shaggs
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Too much of a cult band for a VA. Their proto-punk charm trails behind the Velvet Underground’s song " After Hours" which came out a few months before their only album, Philosophy of the World.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- Love the name, but not convinced they are vital (Isn't "Weird Al" Yankovic 5 "outside music"? the right argument might change my mind).TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- In what realm is Weird Al considered an outside musician? He’s been working within the music industry since forever. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- What is outside music?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- From our outsider music article: Outsider music (from "outsider art") is music created by self-taught or naïve musicians. The term is usually applied to musicians who have little or no traditional musical experience, who exhibit childlike qualities in their music, or who have intellectual disabilities or mental illnesses.
- This is why Weird Al doesn’t qualify as an outsider musician. He is a comedic musician. Outsider musicians don’t win Grammys, their records don’t chart (let alone reach gold or platinum), and they don’t make professional music videos (sometimes with the help of the people their parodying). SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- What is outside music?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- In what realm is Weird Al considered an outside musician? He’s been working within the music industry since forever. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Outsider music is gaining support for being removed from V5 at the Society section. If the genre is not included, I have to change my stand to support removing this too. No point in having an artist without the genre. --Makkool (talk) 13:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Think we need at least one outside music act. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with Daniel Johnston, otherwise still oppose. Per Makkool. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- Agree with User:SailorGardevoir that we need at least one outsider musician. Who could be considered the most vital? Daniel Johnston could be a strong contender. Or maybe Wesley Willis or Jandek. --Makkool (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Remove Niño Ricardo
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Only six interwikis. From the article, it’s hard to tell what makes him stand out from other flamenco artists.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Bring Me the Horizon
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We have Evanescence, My Chemical Romance, Fall Out Boy, Paramore and Avril Lavigne. I know these are very beloved bands, but having so many from this era strikes me as generational bias, and these guys seem the least vital of the bunch.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- agreed feminist🚰 (talk) 04:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- 49p (talk) 05:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Sam & Dave
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I love some of their songs, but they were only moderately successful at their peak and didn’t really become cult heroes like other contemporaries on the list. I would rank their vitality as a little less than artists like The Isley Brothers or The Platters, who are not in here.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with The Isley Brothers, otherwise support. The Isleys have had at least three decades of success. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Bay City Rollers
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Their popularity was short-lived.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- "one of many acts" feminist🚰 (talk) 04:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- Did I nominate these guys about 3 months ago in my 3 groups of musical acts that I nominated?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Remove Andy Williams
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Six Grammy nominations, had his own TV show. The article claims that he has sold over 45 million records, but the pointed source does not back that. I doubt that’s an accurate number.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove John Farnham
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He released the second-best-selling album in Australia, but it doesn’t seem he replicated this success.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- feminist🚰 (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think he was as vital to the world as Kings of Leon whose nomination failed (5 multiplatinum albums in AUS where they first made it and eventually multiplatinum well beyond Oceania) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- From a harsh perspective, you could say he was a one-hit wonder which is not enough for vitality. Gizza (talk) 02:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Kurtis Blow 5
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A pioneering rapper. Other than “The Breaks” his discography doesn’t really stand out.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discography is weak because he was helping make Rap a thing. His entire market was early adopters. Rap became mainstream because of people like him. per SailorGardevoir who is neutral below.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per SailorGardevoir below. Would also support a swap with Lil Jon, if straight removal doesn't get enough support. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Per above. Idiosincrático (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- Swap with Lil Jon, otherwise neutral. Personally, I think Kurtis Blow being the first rapper to sign to a major label kind of makes him vital. That said, I do feel like Lil Jon is much more important than him. We don’t have anyone representing crunk, which is very glaring considering it was the biggest hip hop subgenre during the 2000s.SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Why don't we just add LJ.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Remove Neutral Milk Hotel
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One (very) influential album, but I don’t think that’s enough for a VA. There are alternative bands who've had similarly acclaimed records with much longer careers that we don't list: The Flaming Lips, Wilco, LCD Soundsystem, to name a few.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- agreed re the comparisons feminist🚰 (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with In the Aeroplane Over the Sea, otherwise swap with Wilco, otherwise support. If a band is mostly here for the massive cult surrounding one of their albums, shouldn’t that album be the one that’s vital? If not, then switch them with Wilco; not only do they have a longer career, they also have the whole Yankee Hotel Foxtrot debacle going for them.
- TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support swap with ITAOTS Iostn (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
(Not OP) Remove Akon
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How has no one requested his removal? The guy’s rated low on all three WikiProjects he’s in. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove certain sex criminals
Remove Mary Kay Letourneau
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Famous yes, but vital? I'm not sure. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:59, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- EleniXDD※Talk 14:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Weak oppose based on high level of cultural influence in the US. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Andrew Luster
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Don't see the vitality, there are other similar cases we don't list, four interwikis. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Unknown person. The Blue Rider 00:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- EleniXDD※Talk 14:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is nothing vital about this person. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Bilal Skaf
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One single interwiki probably isn't a great sign Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Unknown person. The Blue Rider 00:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- EleniXDD※Talk 14:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- We don't even list Sydney gang rapes, which would probably be the more significant topic than the ringleader. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- per above. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Stephen Thomas Erlewine
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Online music critic, who isn't especially popular or influential. AllMusic would be a more vital article than him.
- Support
- As nom. --Makkool (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Swap with AllMusic, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Weak support. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Some geographers
Add Friedrich Ratzel
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Friedrich Ratzel was a pioneering figure in Geopolitics 5 and Human geography 4, known for his concept of Lebensraum. His ideas shaped the understanding of territorial expansion and the interaction between geography and politics. However, the Nazi Party distorted his concept to justify aggressive expansionism during World War II. Despite this misuse, Ratzel's contributions remain influential in understanding the relationship between geography, politics, and human societies.
- Support
- As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per nom.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 19:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- @GeogSage:, these proposals might interest you! The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Add Rudolf Kjellén
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Rudolf Kjellén, a Swedish geographer, is renowned for taking Ratzel's concept of Geopolitik into an independent field. He introduced pivotal concepts such as organicism to the nature of political entities, emphasized regionalism, and further expanded upon Ratzel's initial concepts. Kjellén's ideas were later appropriated by Karl Haushofer and utilized by the Nazi Party.
- Support
- As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per nom.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 19:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Some More geographers
Add Waldo R. Tobler
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Waldo Tobler is most known for coining what has come to be known as Tobler's first law of geography, as well as his less well known Tobler's second law of geography. He is also well known for Tobler's hiking function, and several map projections, such as Tobler hyperelliptical projection. His body of work is highly influential. He was the first one to publish a paper on the possibility of using computers to aid in the map production process, created analytical cartography, and was influential in the literature surrounding thematic maps like choropleths.
- Support
- As nominator.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 19:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know what half of those things are, but he seems vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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William Garrison is known for leading the quantitative revolution in geography, which included applying computers and statistics to spatial problems. His graduate students included Brian Berry, Duane Marble, William Bunge, Michael Dacey, Arthur Getis, and of course, Waldo R. Tobler, who took his methods/teaching and became notable in the discipline.
- Support
- As nominator.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 19:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Pharaoh removals
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Unlike the former list of Roman emperors or British PMs, we do not list every pharaoh, but some of the ones we do list are definitely not vital. I have identified four below that can be removed.
Remove Mentuhotep I
Only important for starting a dynasty, and historians are not even sure that he existed. Achaemenes, a similar case, has been removed already.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Ramesses I
At least this guy is known to exist, but his reign was short and he did not do anything.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Twosret
She only lasted two years, and it does not seem like she did anything important during those two years.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Shoshenq II
He only reigned two years, and it does not seem like anything about that reign is known. We don't even know who his parents were.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Add Elaine Paige and Patti LuPone
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Look, I know that we really need to cut the actors/actresses section, but these two are probably the most well known actresses in musical theatre for West End and Broadway respectively. The former has been outright called the First Lady of British Musical Theatre, while the latter has multiple awards and nominations under her belt. (Yes, both of them also played Eva Perón in Evita.)
- Support
- As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:09, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- --EleniXDD※Talk 08:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- support Lupone-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose Paige not awarded enough, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Add Stan Getz
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Helped brought bossa nova to the United States.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- 45 interwikis and rated High-Importance by WikiProject Jazz. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Vital musician. --Thi (talk) 13:29, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Idiosincrático (talk) 06:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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He is often viewed as India's first great novelist and one of the most important figures of the Bengal Renaissance 5. He is best known for the novel Anandamath, considered a seminal work in Indian literature 4, which gave rise to Vande Mataram, India's national song.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Gizza (talk) 03:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Minor Threat
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Considering Fugazi 5 is vital, I feel like MacKaye's (frontman of Fugazi and Minor Threat) band Minor Threat is also influential. Minor Threat standardized the DIY-punk scene, coined the term straight edge with a song (unintentionally), and influenced the punk scene with its ethics and aesthetics (especially the Washington, D.C. hardcore scene). Considering those reasons and how many sources call them with one of the "influential" punk bands, it seems the band is a simple addition.
- Support
- Nom. 49p (talk) 02:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support Makkool (talk) 17:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Per nomination Idiosincrático (talk) 14:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Hunter Moore
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Being the "most hated man on the internet" for a short period of time doesn't make him vital, five interwikis, He's a bit more notable than the others I nominated for removal but I still don't think he passes the bar. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- agree --EleniXDD※Talk 08:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Ken Shimizu
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Japanese pornographic film actor. His claim to vitality does not look properly sourced.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- --Thi (talk) 09:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Idiosincrático (talk) 10:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose for now as the proposal seems more based on content issues with the article itself rather than his actual level of vitality. I think in this case before being proposed, the article needs work with sourcing to verify its vitality, along with needing major updates since the career section does seem very out-of-date. Iostn (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Miguel Ángel Juárez. Add Manuel Belgrano 5
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Swapping a lesser president for Belgrano, arguably Argentina's most important founding father after San Martín.
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Major omission. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:54, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Idiosincrático (talk) 06:38, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss