Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 6

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Add Wendy Carlos

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As I've said earlier, there are some big omissions among electronic musician, and she is one of them. She is known for pioneering work with Moog and produced one of the first well-known electronic music albums in 1968. As an aside, I was also going to suggest Delia Derbyshire  5 but it seems she is listed under Western art music - Composers instead.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom --EleniXDD※Talk 08:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I say this as someone who loves her work and has a copy of Switched-On Bach but Carlos is not in the same ballpark as the other artists we list. Most of her discography isn't even in-print or licensed to digital platforms anymore. Artists is such an oversaturated category and we shouldn't be listing artists that the vast majority of people in the world haven't heard of unless they have a demonstrable legacy that clearly lasts to this very day. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   I wouldn’t use Carlos’s stubborn refusal to put her music online as evidence against her vitality. It was completely impossible to listen to Prince on Youtube until he died, and I’m pretty sure he was a level 4 before that. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Yea but that wasn't my only point. Prince is a household name. Wendy Carlos is a deep cut even in the electronic music world. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   Streaming/licensing aside, vitality isn't the same thing as overall fame, it also counts influence and importance to the field. Iostn (talk) 16:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Max Richter

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Maybe one of the biggest classical composers around right now.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Big fan. The Blue Rider 22:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Way too early to say if he will be vital. No major musical awards won yet, relatively few interwikis, and no clear signs of worldwide renown. There are a ton of similar artists who I think deserve a slot here first and even those I would vote Oppose. One such example is Ludwig Göransson who has more interwikis, more than 3x as many daily pageviews, and an entire Wiki page dedicated to his awards and nominations. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Recentism. Agreed with Aurangzebra. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Mike Oldfield

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Creator of one of the most culturally recognizable instrumental works of the late 20th century.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not really seeing the vitality upon a quick glance through his Wiki article. Yes, Tubular Bells is widely recognized but I think that's more so because of The Exorcist  5. When I hear that track, I think The Exorcist, not Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells. I don't think most people would even know who composed that track or the name of the album it was on even though it is recognizable. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Tubular Bells seems to be more widely associated with the Exorcist in the US, in the UK it is a lot more well-known independently of that. I did consider adding Tubular Bells separately on its own to musical works but there have already been a lot of proposals there lately and I was not sure if it would pass. Iostn (talk) 16:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   That makes sense. Maybe it's American bias but I hadn't heard of the names Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells before reading this post and I consider myself fairly well-versed in music personalities. Would reconsider my vote with further input from others. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Olaus Petri

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A major contributor to the Protestant reformation in Sweden. We already list Mikael Agricola  5, who was a similar figure in Finland, so I propose that we list Olaus Petri as well.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 19:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Propose

Discuss

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Move Pau Gasol  5 and Hakeem Olajuwon  5 to Non-U.S. Men

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Gasol is Spanish, and Olajuwon is Nigerian, but both are listed as Americans Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom, Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Gasol Hakeem is trickier because he attended an American college and played for the USMNT _pbp 15:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. S Gasol/O Olajuwon because of his international play notability. Hakeem has minimal notability attributable to international affiliations.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Gasol only, clearly not American. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Olajuwon – US citizen represented the US national team. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. You know you can just move them yourself. Although I am slightly against moving Olajuwon since he has US citizenship, and he never represented Nigeria as an adult. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Just moved Gasol. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add Chick Corea

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Notable omission in the jazz musicians category. Pioneer of jazz fusion and according to his Wikipedia article, "considered to have been one of the foremost pianists of the post-John Coltrane era." Two of the other artists cited in that category are Herbie Hancock  5 and Keith Jarrett  5 who are already VA5 and he has more interwikis than either of them. In fact, he has 51 interwikis which is extremely high for a jazz musician. Some of his compositions such as Spain (instrumental) and 500 Miles High are fairly recognizable and are considered jazz standards that are highly respected and played in the jazz world. He is tied for 4th in the list for most Grammy wins of all time and every other artist in the top 10 is VA5 or higher. He also has an album (Now He Sings, Now He Sobs) in the Grammy Hall of Fame which indicates "lasting qualitative or historical significance." He has 60+ albums with their own Wikipedia articles (either with himself solo or as ringleader of Return to Forever) and multiple works that are considered the greatest jazz albums of all time such as Light as a Feather. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Definitely a major oversight Iostn (talk) 13:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Peter Thiel

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I know he sometimes acts like a cartoon villain, but he’s been one of the most influential people in the tech world for close to thirty years now. He is closely related to PayPal, Palantir Technologies, and Facebook and has considerably shaped Silicon Valley politics as an author and investor.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Recentism. Let's see how his legacy stacks against other investors. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

   He’s been a notable figure since 2002. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Věra Chytilová

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Czech filmmaker best known for directing and writing the 1966 film Daisies, which in 2022 was voted the 28th greatest film of all time by the Sight & Sound critics poll. Celebrated for her defiant, experimental, and uncompromising approach, she is perhaps the most important figure from the Czechoslovak New Wave after Miloš Forman.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per Iostn. Daisies isn't even VA5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Daisies is a classic film, but is she really well-known for anything else? Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Saman Khuda

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Since we removed Achaemenes, here’s another guy whose vitality is just “found a dynasty”. There are some differences (the biggest one being that there’s a general agreement that Saman Khuda actually existed), but like Achaemenes, he was never a ruler.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Samanid Empire  5 is enough. starship.paint (RUN) 09:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 01:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Eze Nri Ìfikuánim

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This might not be fair since this article only has two sentences, but I'm not sure what make him vital other being the first Eze of Nri, a kingdom we do not list.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
2. good point --EleniXDD※Talk 06:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Good find. I wonder if there's an easy way to create a list of VA5 articles sorted by page size in bytes to get rid of other obvious candidates like this. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
4. The article was created in 2009 and has hardly been bigger. How vital can this person be if nobody knows about him? starship.paint (RUN) 14:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Swap for Kingdom of Nri. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

   @Iostn: I proposed that for addition on the History and Geography talk page. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Walter Jackson Freeman II with António Egas Moniz

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Portuguese neurologist that founded the field of psychosurgery, namely the procedures of cerebral angiography, and more famously the lobotomy. He recieved a Nobel Prize for it. 51 interwikis compared with the lesser known figure of Freeman with only 13 interwikis due to his minor role comparatively in the psychosurgery field. The Blue Rider 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. We don't have the founder of lobotomy? Yeah, we should fix that. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom EleniXDD※Talk 04:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Support addition, not convinced on removal. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Margaret, Maid of Norway  5

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She was seven when she died. Also even though she's here for being the queen of Scots, she never left Norway.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Sometimes, even if they lived for only a short period of time, their death may have many consequences, namely creating a sucession crisis, which was the case here. The Blue Rider 11:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove John I of France

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This is a baby. This is not a kid who didn't make it to adulthood, this is a literal infant who died before he was a week old.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. A life of four days, how to be vital? starship.paint (RUN) 12:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 16:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
4. EleniXDD※Talk 04:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 01:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Louis XVII

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Per logic of John I and others above. Was a claimant to the rule of France but never really held it, and died young _pbp 16:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 16:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
3. EleniXDD※Talk 04:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Article: "He never actually ruled." starship.paint (RUN) 07:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I normally would not support an entry like this, but he held a special significance in the history of the French Revolution  3, which isn't VA4 but VA3, a time which is often considered to maark the start of the modern era of politics. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Sophie, Countess of Bar

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I am just not seeing anything that makes her stand out from all the other rulers of the states that make up the Holy Roman Empire.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Even her French Wikipedia article is similarly short. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Why is she even here? Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 00:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Jacques de Molay  5 to military leaders

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Final leader of the Knights Templar, martyred, namesake of the youth wing of the Freemasons _pbp 10:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 10:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 19:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Carlo Ancelotti

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One of the greatest managers of all time. Interstellarity (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Ancelotti is the most decorated UCL manager and has been highly regarded for over a decade. Idiosincrático (talk) 22:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. Plus he is also one of the coolest men of all time. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Tim Minchin

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Minchin is of moderate notability as a comedian in Australia at best. I can't see how he is vital at this level. Gizza (talk) 00:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom. Gizza (talk) 00:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Sam Zolotow

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I expanded the critic section title under the writers and journalists page a while back chiefly because of this guy, and I would like to shorten it back to just critics. All this guy did was report on Broadway box office returns.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Not seeing any form of vitality. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad cultural significance. starship.paint (RUN) 12:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. I'm not even sure he'd be V7 material, much less V6 or V5 Kevinishere15 (talk) 01:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Mississippi John Hurt

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Probably the biggest person whose career got revived thanks to the American folk music revival.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Hoagy Carmichael

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Very successful songwriter. Wrote several hundred songs, including “Stardust”, “Georgia on My Mind”, “Skylark”, and “Ole Buttermilk Sky”. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Was going to propose this myself yesterday after being inspired by your other suggestions but you beat me to it. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Easy choice. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Sam Bankman-Fried to finance, remove Robert Holmes à Court and Elias Hasket Derby

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Sam Bankman-Fried is a central figure in cryptocurrency that committed mass fraud and lost $8 billion of customer money and per BBC he got rich faster than almost anyone in history. He has 23 interwikis. Robert Holmes à Court, Australia's first billionaire, has zero interwikis, while Elias Hasket Derby, an American merchant, has only one interwiki, suggesting that both have low cultural importance. starship.paint (RUN) 06:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nominator. starship.paint (RUN) 06:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removals, not sure about the addition Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:17, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support all proposals. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removals. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

I think it's worth noting that there are quite a few other businessmen currently listed at VA5 who have no better case than Holmes or Derby to be on this list. At the very least, Holmes and Derby were at one point the wealthiest men in their respective countries; some measures (such as GDP slice) put Derby among the 10 wealthiest in the history of the United States. I'm also a little concerned about recentism here: SBF is three years younger than I am, and made and lost his fortune relatively recently. _pbp 17:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

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Entertainer removals

Remove May Wirth

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Obscure circus performer. 1 interwiki.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Snooki

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I don't think she is among the world's most important entertainers. A bit of a flash in the pan.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
8. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Long John Nebel and Major Bowes

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I am not one to quibble that much about U.S. overrepresentation, but 26 of 29 people from the Radio Hosts section are American (plus another American-born). Some of these are too local. 1 interwiki

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Not even V6 material Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Dan Carlin

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Podcaster of recent fame. Arguably not among the present’s most important to begin with.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Robert Emmet Odlum

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Maybe jumping from the Brooklyn Bridge is a more important thing that I am aware of, but we have three people whose vitality rests on this act and Steve Brodie (bridge jumper)  5 was the first to do it.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Tex McCrary

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Article says he hosted the first radio talk show, Meet Tex and Jinx, but this appears to be a dubious claim. The talk show article does not mention him in the History section. 2 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Nev Schulman

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His career section does not stand out. He’s behind Catfish: The TV Show for MTV, way past the channel’s prime.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Marc Summers

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It seems we have a surfeit of 2000s- early 2010s TV personalities and producers. Like Schulman, none of the shows he's related to are especially popular, have won awards, etc.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Joey Stefano

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It seems he only became known for his death. For gay pornography, we have Casey Donovan (actor)  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
6. There's not much that makes this person notable or important enough to qualify their bio as 'vital'; whereas someone like Casey Donovan, who became a 'gay icon' during the Golden Age of Porn, is probably someone far more qualified as 'vital'. Idiosincrático (talk) 04:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think we can have more gay porn stars. In fact, it’s probably the straight male porn stars that need to be removed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
2. I held out on voting on this as I'm not actually really sure, but I will say this - saying he only became known for his death doesn't seem to be reflected by the article at all, especially when he was appearing in music videos with Madonna. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. We have near gender parity in the Adult/pornography section (14 women and 11 men) even though (as far as I know, for better or worse) women are more prominent in this industry.

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Add Robert Schuman

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Quoting the article "Twice Prime Minister of France, a reformist Minister of Finance and a Foreign Minister, he was instrumental in building postwar European and trans-Atlantic institutions and was one of the founders of the European Communities, the Council of Europe and NATO."

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 03:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 21:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Very important. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Though I suspect some might be thrown by him being called twice PM: in France, the role of the Prime Minister is significantly inferior to that of the President (currently Macron). J947 ‡ ^edits 07:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Bernardine Dohrn for Fusako Shigenobu

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We list two separate members of the Weather Underground under "terrorism" - Dohrn and Bill Ayers  5. The WUO was never particularly influential or long-lasting, which makes devoting two slots under a sub-section that only has 16 entries to begin with rather questionable/US-centric. Bill Ayres, leaving aside wherever or not he should be listed there or somewhere else, I think is the more notable of the two and his notability extends beyond that in of itself, which leaves Bernardine Dohrn to be removed. Fusako Shigenobu was one of the leading members of the Arab-Japanese Red Army which was active for much longer and way more high-profile on the world stage.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. makes sense, per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Xu Ling

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I've been scanning through the poets section lately, and while they are a lot of stubs, most of them look like they are at least of decent quality in the poets' native language. The same can't be said for him, whose Chinese Wikipedia article is also pretty bare.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
2. 4 interwikis. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Gillebríghde Albanach

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Another guy whose article amounts to two paragraphs.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. No argument for vitality is present in the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Guillaume de Lorris

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Like Xu Ling, bare English article, and bare French article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Roman de la Rose  5 is already listed. The Blue Rider 20:21, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

   We also have Jean de Meun  5, whose article is in a much better state comparatively. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Scholars know nothing about him other than the fact that he wrote part of an important poem. Not vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Fang (alchemist)

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Not only is her page consists of four short paragraphs, she doesn't even have a Chinese article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. The actual claims to vitality are unsourced, and even if they had sources, "first Chinese woman alchemist" is too specific. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Master Geng

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She does not have a Chinese article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No claim to vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Zhang Zhi (calligrapher)

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Another stub, even in Chinese Wikipedia.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Article makes some good claims to vitality, such as pioneered the modern cursive script and known as one of the Four Talented Calligraphers in Chinese calligraphy. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Manuel Chrysaphes

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Same as my previous proposals today.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No lasting influence. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Patnam Subramania Iyer

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Another bare article that I don't think is ever going to escape stub-status.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Dong Xiwen

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Same thing as usual. Both English and Chinese articles are pretty bleh. I would propose swapping him for his painting The Founding Ceremony of the Nation, but I'm not entirely sure how vital that actually is.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. I could potentially support a swap with the one painting he is actually known for, but I'm not even sure if that is vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove the stub-rated critics

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Now that this project got rid of quotas, I think it's safe to say some of these sections have way too many people, the critics section in the journalist page being one of them. For now, I'm proposing to get rid of the stubs, which are:

1. Jon Caramanica
2. Whitwell Elwin
3. Emily Genauer
4. Paul Hume (music critic)
5. Cub Koda
6. Ashton Stevens

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. They lack broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
5. The editors and publishers section needs a cut as well. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Calling some of them stubs was inaccurate, and I rerated two as Start-Class. That said, neutral on Stevens because he makes some good arguments for vitality but doesn't back them up well with specifics, support the rest. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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More entertainer removal proposals

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Remove Marie-Thérèse de Subligny

I appreciate that the Dancers section extends far in history but even her French-language article is quite short. The English version has been up since 2006 and is only one paragraph.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. I am not sure that first professional ballerina to appear in England is good enough for the list. She is almost vital, but she doesn't quite make the cut. Ping me if any more information is unearthed. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Antoine Pitrot

Same as above. Article has been up since 2008 and is only two short paragraphs.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Not important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Harry Rickards

British-Australian vaudeville artist. Relatively obscure figure. 2 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Kreskin

1970s TV mentalist.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Not important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Gene Rayburn

“He is best known as the host of various editions of the American television game show Match Game for over two decades.”

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Definitely not. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bob Vila

“American home improvement television show host known for This Old House (1979–1989), Bob Vila's Home Again (1990–2005), and Bob Vila (2005–2007)." 

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Not on par with Julia Child or even Bob Ross. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Roger Howarth

4 Interwikis, very low for an American actor born in 1968.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Minor actor. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove María Elena Velasco

Known for portraying La India María, a character based on indigenous Mexican women. Not well known outside of Mexico and it would be an understatement to say the character has aged poorly.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Not seeing how she is vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Kyosen Ōhashi

There is no mention of his activities as an enternainer. The Japanese-language article is longer but probably doesn’t make the cut.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Neutral. The state of our article on him does not mean anything, and the Japanese article has a lot more information about his career in entertainment and politics, but I'm not sure if the information in the Japanese article is enough to warrant listing him. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Callinicus of Heliopolis

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One. This man has only one paragraph.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
2. The only thing he is known for is inventing Greek fire  5. He does not need to be listed unless there is secretly a good argument for vitality that is missing from the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Pre-contemporary US politicians clean-up

A little while ago many contemporary US politicians were removed in order to address US bias. In spite of that, this only really touched the "contemporary" section and earlier chronological sections still have a disproportionate US focus, which is actually a lot more egregious in this case as it predates the US even becoming a superpower which would warrant including more.

Remove Nicholas Biddle  5

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Only really seems relevant wrt to the Bank War  5, and we already list his allies Henry Clay  4 and Daniel Webster  5 who seem more vital.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The Bank War gets enough play in the history books to justify Biddle at this level _pbp 19:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Roscoe Conkling

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From the legacy section: "Roscoe Conkling's enduring legacy is scant. Though he was a consequential, colorful and powerful political figure in his day, few lasting social or legislative achievements are attributed to him."

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, probably not VA5 _pbp 19:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Not quite at the level of VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Hiram Johnson  5

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State governor, long-serving senator, isolationist and reformist, but I'm not sure he really stands out enough to be here.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Next to Teddy Roosevelt and possibly Robert LaFollette Sr., most responsible for the enaction of early 20th century progressive reforms, particularly initiative and referendum. How did Awnald become governor of California? Because of a process enacted by Hiram Johnson. _pbp 19:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Frank B. Kellogg  5

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Responsible for the Kellogg–Briand Pact  5, but doesn't really seem that vital in his own right aside from that.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. He DID win a Nobel Peace Prize for that diplomacy _pbp 19:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

   We already removed several articles listed under rebels and actvisists who were there solely for being Nobel Prize winners. Iostn (talk) 21:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Stephen Mather

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First director of the National Park Service (not a VA). Really doesn't seem to be much here other than that, and with only 7 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• I'm neutral on this one. He was extremely important to U.S. National Parks, but I'm not quite sure if that is enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Thomas Brackett Reed  5

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Responsible for significantly increasing the power of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, but again the global relevance of that seems rather dubious.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. LostN already said everything that needs to be said. When the Speakership is at its most powerful (under Joe Cannon and Tom Reed), the Speaker is as powerful as the President, especially if the Speaker is of a different political party. _pbp 19:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Thurlow Weed

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His highest elected office was only the New York State Assembly. He is only listed here presumably for serving as an advisor to other more prominent politicians.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 19:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Being important to a few presidential nominations does not make this guy vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Jensen Huang

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He is making AI feasible for the masses. Will be the first to lead a company (Nvidia  5) to 5T valuation, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per TonyTheTiger. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Although I think there is a strong case to oppose as Nvidia is already recognised, Huang's role as co-founder and president during the foundation and 20 year development of one of the 21st century's leading tech companies has to count for something. For as long as I can remember Nvidia has been household; I believe there is a strong argument for their co-founder's recognition. Idiosincrático (talk) 18:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Until Nvidia actually hits a 5T market cap, oppose. Nvidia's success can be attributed to having the best GPUs which every single commercial deep learning application today requires. Jensen Huang did not invent the idea that GPUs can accelerate deep learning nor did he design or implement the current GPUs that are used today. Nvidia is its product more so than it is its CEO/founder. I'd much rather see someone like Satya Nadella added first because Microsoft's insane recent success can be directly linked to him: after 14 years of near-zero growth under Steve Ballmer, Nadella has 10x'ed Microsoft's stock price (27% growth per year), making it the most valuable company in the world right now. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

   I would support that if you proposed it. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

   User:Aurangzebra, are you watching. Price closed on 2/6 682.23. Today 926.69. I hope you aren't shorting this thing.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger: Haha I would never short it. As I said before, Nvidia is its product more than it is Jensen Huang. Every single ML application with a modern-day workload needs GPUs and ML is what's red-hot right now so GPUs are flying off the shelves. Jensen Huang didn't invent the GPU, nor is it possible to directly attribute him to the specific decisions that have made Nvidia GPUs the leaders in the market e.g. things like CUDA lock-in. If tomorrow they announced that Jensen Huang retired and TonyTheTiger was taking over, I'd still be long NVIDIA. It's like selling ice-cold water in the middle of the desert; the salesman doesn't matter since the product sells itself. And this is evidenced by the fact that almost any company that has any stake in the GPU game has doubled their stock price in the last 5 years: ASUS (102%), AMD (861%), and especially Supermicro (5863%). Should we list Supermicro's CEO since their growth is over twice the growth of Nvidia? Aurangzebra (talk) 10:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

   Not sure about Supermicro, but if any company were to replace Jensen Huang with me, short them.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Philosophers proposals (mainly addressing sysbias)

As it stands, contemporary philosophers (Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers,_historians,_political_and_social_scientists#Late_modern_(after_AD_1800)) is very Euro/US-dominated, to the extent that Asia, the most populous continent only has 11 entries listed and nearly all the entries under "Americas" are North American. As such, this is going to mainly be for proposals to remove some of the more questionable Western picks in favour of adding some ommissions from the rest of the world.

Swap David Gauthier for José Vasconcelos

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Gauthier seems to be one of the weakest picks for the Americas, with low pageviews and nothing much on his influence. José Vasconcelos' ideas had a big influence on Mexico (both culturally and on government policy) following the Mexican Revolution.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add José Enrique Rodó

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"For more than a century now, Ariel has been an extraordinarily influential and enduring essay in Latin American letters and culture due to a combination of specific cultural, literary, and political circumstances"

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Highly and long-influential lasting to this day, note the very high number of pageviews and interwikis.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Wow, didn't realize that he had been omitted. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Major philosopher, major omission czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add U. G. Krishnamurti

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No relation the the former, and also an influential figure (although less so)

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. With such a low number of interwiki links, I question whether he had a global influence. The Blue Rider 11:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Byung-Chul Han

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Maybe a somewhat recentist pick, but he is definitely someone who has became a big name as of late due to the relevance of his writings to 21st century society.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not a major figure in philosophy by any measure. The Blue Rider 11:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. I would rather wait a little more. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap Kazimierz Ajdukiewicz for Franz Brentano

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Kazimierz Ajdukiewicz seems to have easily one of the lowest pageviews here, so I'm proposing a swap for Franz Brentano, who is mentioned as a major influence on the page for the historical school which the former belonged to.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Eino Kaila

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Even lower pageviews than Ajdukiewicz.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe

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Low pageviews and nothing here really to assert influence.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove David Stove

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Only really seems important for holding a competition where he declared himself winner and for being an openly racist bastard.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Richard Brautigan

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We still have way too many modern American and Canadian authors. This guy is much like David Baldacci, who we already removed in the past. He has a decent number of blue linked works, but some of them aren't notable and he doesn't have much cultural influence past a few minor anecdotes. If anything, I could maybe see an argument for adding Trout Fishing in America, but I don't think it is vital enough, so this is not a swap proposal. With nearly 300 articles in this section, this is the kind of person we need to cut.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Ah Mekat Tutul Xiu

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Created about ten years ago, this page has not expanded further than a single paragraph. Spanish version is equally pretty bare.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
2. It could be worth adding the League of Mayapan that he founded, but he does not seem vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Lil Jon  5

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It was suggested above that he's vital and I agree, He popularized the crunk subgenre.

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
2. As the guy who suggested it. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 18:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
5. YYYEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!!!-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove May Aufderheide

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I get the desire to have more than the big three ragtime composers on here, and more importantly to include more women on this project, but no. Even though she's the biggest female composer of ragtime, that doesn't change the fact that her page is a stub, there are less than a hundred edits between now and its creation, and she's rated low-importance on every WikiProject she's in.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
4. @SailorGardevoir: The quality of the article has nothing to do with the importance of the article subject, and the number of edits to the article has nothing to do with its importance or quality. The primary purpose of these lists are to encourage people to make these articles better, so removing articles solely for being low-quality is not a good idea. Still, I will support this because they have no claim to vitality and the WikiProjects rate it as Low-Importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Al-Baghawi

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Stub. Literally just two paragraphs and a list of his works. He has 15 interwikis, but with the exception of the Arabic article (which is still kind of bare), all of them are stubs as well, with the Persian article (which I would assume to be of decent size) consisting of a singular paragraph.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. No claim to vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Meghan Trainor

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Pretty important singer. Interstellarity (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. To who? Just because Wikipedia for inexplicable reasons has a team dedicated to making sure that every article related to her is at least a B-tier does not make her vital. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Nothing against her personally, but I think she's exactly who we should not list. Listing singers of this level of prominence, coupled with many singers reaching this level of prominence, is exactly why we have too many singers on the V5 list. starship.paint (RUN) 14:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Only 1 multiplatinum album also her only #1 album.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Ibn Qutaybah

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This article consists of only five paragraphs, two of them very short. He has 30 interwikis, but they are all of similar length, including the Arabic version.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. I don't really see how he is vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Al-Qurtubi

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Stub here. Stub on Arabic Wikipedia.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Stub it may be, but on Arabic Wikipedia he receives more views than Hegel. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per J947. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Osman Nuri Topbaş

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Besides being a stub here and on Turkish Wikipedia, that message tag kind of makes me wonder if this guy discovered this project and tried to put his name on here.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:54, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
2. No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Marianne Wiggins

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We still have way too many modern American authors, and the Writers page as a whole is well over the quota given. This woman does not have a good claim to vitality. Not every author who wins a couple awards is vital. Only 4 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Move Bahubali and Rishabhanatha to mythological figures

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These two are held to have a height of multi-story buildings and a lifespan that's older than the entire universe.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:42, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. They had tons of time to see a doctor about their gigantism. starship.paint (RUN) 14:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Edwin Abbott Abbott

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He only wrote one book that was even somewhat influential. That one book does have some importance, and I could be convinced to support a swap, but several of the examples listed for its influence are only related by the vague theme, making the link iffy. The remaining claims to importance do not convince me of the book's vitality. I am therefore proposing a straight remove.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap for Flatland. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Harold Schechter

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The article does not claim to be vital, and none of his books have articles. Only 3 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Lunalilo

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A one-year reign means he fails the lettuce test we now subject politicians and leaders to

Support

1. _pbp 21:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. He made a very big difference in that one year. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Léonin

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Another case of "this article is never going to improve".

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Unlike the others this guy actually gets decent pageviews. He's the 2nd earliest composer of the 222 we list (after Hildegard of Bingen). Re: "this article is never going to improve", that's just wrong; his slightly more famous contemporary Pérotin's article is 10 times as long.
   Gilles Binchois, Adrian Willaert, Jacopo Peri, and Francesco Landini are all much better candidates for removal. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
2. per above Makkool (talk) 07:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Jang Seung-eop

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Same thing, just replace Chinese with Korean.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Listed as one of the three Wons of Korean painting, and the other two are listed. More sourcing likely exists in Korean, and the lack of a quality article there is no indication of a lack of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above, was influential enough to have a film made about him, and also arguments re: Korean-language articles should take into account that Namuwiki is more popular than Wikipedia in South Korea. Iostn (talk) 22:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Elsie Tu

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I can find no discussion of why she was added. Hong Kong is rather bloated with six post-1945 leaders despite not being an independent nation for any of that time.

Support

1. _pbp 22:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Russell Simmons

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Yes, we got plenty of hip-hop executives on here (including fellow Def Jam founder Rick Rubin  5), but I still feel like he’s pretty important.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
2. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Article makes some pretty good claims to vitality, and there are plenty of other people being proposed for removal on this talk page to make room to include him. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Hip Hop and WikiProject Biography's Musicians work group. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. 49p (talk) 15:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Nam June Paik

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Very influential in installation and performance art, considered a founder of Video art  5.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 17:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Canonical reference for video art czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Move Albertus Magnus  5 to philosophers

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As far as I’m aware, bold moves (as in putting articles in different sections) is still allowed. I moved Albertus Magnus from the religious figures page to the philosophers page, but @User:Makkool moved him back. Obviously this calls for a proposal to see what everyone else thinks.

Move

1. Admittedly, this is just me skimming through his article, but he seems overall more suited for the philosophers page. I see your edit summary Makkool, but your rationale can easily be applied to Thomas Aquinas. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Oh wow, I didn't realize Thomas Aquinas was categorized as a philosopher. The way I've always edited this list is, that I've added theologians to the Religious figures section. If Thomas is with philosophers, so should Albertus absolutely be. Maybe we should move theologians under a separate heading away from other philosophers to make it clearer? Makkool (talk) 11:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

   No, I also think that the theologians should be listed under religious figures. I just think that Albertus fell on the philosophy side of the philosophy-theology spectrum. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

   I trust you've made the right call. I just wish there could be some clear objective metric, so that this wouldn't be a matter of opinion of us editors. Makkool (talk) 20:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Discuss

*OK, since nobody has shown any interest in participating in this discussion, I decided to move him. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Ignore that message, I moved him back. I am getting frustrated by how this topic basically died within 24 hours after I started it, especially since he is not the only religious figure who might be more suited for the philosophers page. I would really like to know why Thomas Aquinas  3 and Averroes  4 are under philosophers, while Gaudapada  4 and Mulla Sadra  4 are under religious figures. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Marie Allard

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French ballerina with no claim to vitality besides being the mother of a more famous dancer.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Swap Mumtaz for Gong Li

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I have no idea why this given name Mumtaz is listed in Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters, Asia section. I propose a swap for a internationally-renowned actress.

1) Mumtaz has only 7 interwikis, while Gong has 63 interwikis (more than most articles in the Asia section) 2) Gong is the first Asian to be the head of jury at both prestigious film festivals, the 2000 Berlin Film Festival and the 2002 Venice Film Festival. 3) Gong served as the President of the Jury at several film festivals, i.e. 16th Tokyo International Film Festival, 17th Shanghai International Film Festivaland 11th Beijing International Film Festival, the first woman to hold such position.

Support

1. as nom EleniXDD※Talk 10:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Just fixed link. However, I am in favor of swapping Mumtaz for Gong. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Support addition of Gong Li. Gizza (talk) 04:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Support add, keep Mumtaz the actress. Makkool (talk) 06:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal of Mumtaz (Indian actress) as one of the most pre-eminent Indian actresses of the late 1960s and 1970s. Mumtaz has less interwikis more pageviews than Gong Li, which is impressive considering her careers peaked 25 years earlier and is less affected by recentism. Not that it should preclude Gong Li from being included. Gizza (talk) 04:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I think Mumtaz is meant to be Mumtaz (Indian actress) - not confident wherever she should be included or not Iostn (talk) 12:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I have checked the list, there are more than one actresses named Mumtaz, so we can't be sure which on is it referring to. After some comparisons, none of them are as famous as Gong (internationally, comparison by number of interwikis, prestigious awards and recognition, hence a swap is a good replacement than the current state) EleniXDD※Talk 14:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iostn any thought on the swapping - now the link is fixed EleniXDD※Talk 05:35, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I support adding Gong Li, not sure wherever or not the Indian actress should be removed though Iostn (talk) 22:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gizza When I started the discussion, it was the given name Mumtaz being listed as vital, so I thought it should go for a swap. Not sure now after the link is fixed, whether should we just continue the discussion of swapping of the two, discuss for an only addition of Gong Li (if it's possible) or open a new discussion about swapping with another actress (cause entertainers list is over quota). Your reasons did persuade me that Mumtaz (Indian actress) should stay. --EleniXDD※Talk 04:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

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Move Bill Ayers  5 to "Terrorists" OR move Bernardine Dohrn to "Rebels, revolutionaries and activists"

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Both are similar, co-founding the Weather Underground. However they are both in separate sections. I believe they should be grouped in the same section due to similar activism. So either move Ayers to "Terrorists" or Dohrn to "Rebels, revolutionaries and activists" (so both would be in the same section)

Support to move Ayers to Terrorists

Support to move Dohrn to "Rebels, revolutionaries and activists"

49p (talk) 16:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Remove Dohrn

1. 49p (talk) 20:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 21:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose both

Discuss

Remove Dohrn outright _pbp 17:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, not gonna lie after making this topic I realized there's not much vitality of Dohrn other than association. I mean I think most people would agree Bill Ayers  5 is vital due to his controversies and obviously founding the weather underground. For Dohrn, she was just a leader of the group and didn't have much of a legacy compared to Ayers. I'm going add another section to remove Dohrn 49p (talk) 20:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I already made a proposal above to swap Dohrn with Fusako Shigenobu (currently with four supports) Iostn (talk) 20:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't see that. It's perfectly a good swap but I think we should probably add the JRA as well as that isn't vital as well 49p (talk) 21:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I made the swap, as it got enough supporting votes. Makkool (talk) 14:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Jared Leto and Casey Affleck

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A little over a hundred over quota. Neither Affleck or Leto are particularly significant actors compared to others listed. Of the 187 entertainers listed for the Americas, the US takes up 175 of them. I would say that these two are less significant then say Timothée Chalamet Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. per nom. These are not top-tier actors. Neither is 30 Seconds to Mars, which Jared fronts, a top-tier band. We should reduce systematic bias and trim even more. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. As nominator. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 13:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Support but I reckon they are far from the weakest entries on the list. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Not nearly the least vital among listed actors, but we need to make massive cuts to the section. I don't think that these two would be listed by the end of the cuts. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Actors needs clean-up (and I'm not quite sure of the best way to approach it), but I'm not sure why we're starting with removal of well-known figures. Compare either of these to, for example, Chris Cooper or Milton Sills. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

   I'd remove Cooper and Sills too. starship.paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

   @Iostn: I have nominated Sills for removal in a different section. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

2. I don't think these guys are incredibly significant compared to some of the other actors we list but I share the same concerns as lostn. These guys both at least have some claim to vitality. We should be a bit more methodical in deciding who to remove. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

   After quickly running through the list, here are some actors I'd rather see removed than Leto or Affleck who have both had multi-decade storied careers.

   - the aforementioned Cooper and Sills

   - Zac Efron who was briefly a teen heartthrob and hasn't really been too relevant since.

   - Forest Whitaker whose accolades are almost entirely limited to his performance in The Last King of Scotland.

   - Rami Malek who is a great actor but it is way too early to determine if his legacy will be VA5-worthy.

   In general, this list is kind of haphazard and reeks of recency bias. There are others like James Franco and Seth Rogen  5 who are similarly very debatable and borderline. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• @Iostn: Would you say either Affleck or Leto are on the same level as Tommy Lee Jones  5 or George Clooney  5? I would agree that they are more famous then Cooper and Sills, in fact I would support removing either of them. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 01:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure how best to rank them, but generally I think the best approach is to remove the least vital people until it reaches close to quota before anyone who might be more debatable Iostn (talk) 15:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Pussy Riot  5

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Might be controversial on this one, but I don't this is vital. They are known for a heavily publicized trial...but that's the only thing they are really "vital" for. They aren't known for their legacy in music, but simply for their protests that lead the members to become "prisoners of conscience."

Support

1. 49p (talk) 05:35, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 11:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Move to activists instead Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
2. per Iostn.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Move to activists Per Iostn. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
4. move per lostn Aurangzebra (talk) 00:11, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment

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Add Julia Domna  5

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She was a very influential empress of the Roman Empire. She had a lot of power and influence, especially during the reign of her son Caracalla  5. She acted as a mediator between Caracalla and her other son Geta, was influential before them as their father's wife, and remained influential after Caracalla killed Geta. The removal of Geta and several other short-lived emperors from this list should make room to add her.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Swap Edward Oliver LeBlanc with Zog I  5

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With over 70,000 people, Dominica may be too small for two vital politicians. I think Albania, which only includes Enver Hoxha  4, is better suited for a second entry. First PM, then president, and later King, Zog’s policies aimed at centralizing power faced opposition from domestic and foreign rivals, particularly Mussolini’s Italy, leading to his downfall. His mixed legacy is important in understanding the rise of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 15:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove some Principate emperors

I just realized we have every Roman emperor from the Principate era. We've since established that simply holding a position is not enough to be vital, so I'm requesting some removals. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I think basically what we've established is the lettuce test. If your reign or presidency or ministry lasted longer than a head of lettuce, major officeholders like Roman Emperors, POTUSes or British PMs are usually kept. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Galba

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The first emperor of the Year of the Four Emperors. Only lasted seven months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap with Year of the Four Emperors. The Blue Rider 10:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Otho

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The second emperor of the Year of the Four Emperors. Only lasted three months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. No major impact. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:13, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Vitellius

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The third emperor of the Year of the Four Emperors. Only lasted eight months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Titus  5

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Lasted only slightly more than two years. Overshadowed by his brother Domitian, and even his father Vespasian. He is responsible for the destruction of the Second Temple though, so I can see why people would want him to stay.

Support

1. Weak support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. An eventful reign, as detailed in the lede, in spite of being short. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. The lead gives some good reasons for him to be on the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Included in several encyclopedias. --Thi (talk) 13:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Nerva  5

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Lasted only slightly less than two years. Doesn't seem to have anything going on other than being the first of the Five Good Emperors.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Five Good Emperors by itself suggests vitality, and he also established the Nerva–Antonine dynasty  4. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Each of the Five Good Emperors is vital at this level. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Lucius Verus

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Guy never ruled on his own.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Pertinax

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The first emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. Only lasted three months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Didius Julianus

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The second emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. Only lasted two months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. About time we cut some of the people who did absolutely nothing of note. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Pescennius Niger

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The third emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. I'm not sure if people even see him as an emperor.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Never actually took the throne. Just a failed rebellion, and Rome had too many of those to list all of them. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Clodius Albinus

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The fourth emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. Again, not sure if people even see him as an emperor.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Geta (emperor)

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Like Lucius Verus, guy never ruled on his own.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Have been considering removing him for years. Overshadowed by dad and brother. Didn't even get assassinated in an interesting way (brother was stubbed while taking a piss) _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. He became joint emperor and was quickly killed by the actually important brother he shared the throne with. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Macrinus  5

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Only lasted slightly more than a year.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. "the first emperor who did not hail from the senatorial class" Makkool (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Diadumenian

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Like Geta, never ruled on his own. Also he was nine when he died.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Article says Little information survives about Diadumenian. starship.paint (RUN) 06:38, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
4. He was 9 when he was murdered. He never even ruled without his father's help, and his reign was less than a year. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per QuicoleJR _pbp 01:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Felix Hausdorff  5

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From the article: "[He] is considered to be one of the founders of modern topology and who contributed significantly to set theory, descriptive set theory, measure theory, and functional analysis." He was also a prolific name giver, for instance, Hausdorff completion, Hausdorff convergence, Hausdorff density, Hausdorff dimension, Hausdorff distance, Hausdorff gap, Hausdorff maximal principle, Hausdorff measure, Hausdorff metric, Hausdorff moment problem, Hausdorff paradox, Hausdorff space, Hausdorff–Young inequality and the Baker–Campbell–Hausdorff formula.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Very important, per nom --EleniXDD※Talk 05:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 17:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Big in functional analysis and Lp spaces. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Langdarma

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I got to be honest, I think he is only on here to help fill up the military personnel section back when certain sections had quotas. I just moved him to the leaders page because there is not a single military campaign anywhere in his article, and even still this guy was only king for a year.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
5. _pbp 19:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Opppose

Discuss

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Remove Harry Statham and Phil McSpadden

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Relatively obscure sports coaches.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
2. 0 interwikis both. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Phikia (talk) 14:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Jock McHale and James E. Fitzsimmons

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Relatively obscure sports coaches.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
2. 0 interwikis and 3 interwikis. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Linguists cleanup

As it stands the subsection for linguists seems to be a mess, with both stubs on some pretty obscure people presumably to pad out to the former subsection quota and yet also with some pretty surprising omissions in spite of that.

Remove Daniel Kane (linguist)

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Notable for studying Jurchen and Khitan, both extinct languages by his lifetime and neither of which are VA. That isn't inherently a "non-vital" activity but there doesn't seem to be much beyond that and pageviews are also low.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Richard S. Kayne

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Stub, presumably listed for proposing a syntax theory that also isn't a VA.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Paul Kiparsky

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More niche contributions.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Boris Kolker

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Random obscure Esperanto figure.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. Not much in him even in Esperanto. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. High amount of interwikis (31) compared to all the others. Kevinishere15 (talk) 01:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

   There is literally nothing else to suggest vitality though, it's also a stub in both Esperanto and Russian and he is only at 60 pageviews in the past month. If I had to guess, the article was only created in a high number of languages due to the large number of polyglots in the Esperanto community. Iostn (talk) 01:49, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Angelika Kratzer

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More niche contributions.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Alec Marantz

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More niche contributions.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove David Nash (linguist)

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Aboriginal Australian linguistics expert, but not much beyond that.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Jerzy Rubach

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More niche contributions.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Albert Sechehaye

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Seems to be most well-known for editing a compilation of lectures notes from someone much more important.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Alfredo Trombetti

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Random obscure advocate of the theory of monogenesis.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add John McWhorter  5

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Among the most publically prominent linguists today, even if that extends into other areas in his case.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Alexander Vovin  5

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Maybe one of the most important 21st century historical linguists.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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