Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 11

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Teams in coach's infobox

Was there any discussion about which teams should be included in the infobox for coach? I've seen that some infoboxes include coach's tenure with the national team, but I believe that shouldn't be listed? – Sabbatino (talk) 11:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe there has been a specific discussion about this, but I agree with you. Rikster2 (talk) 13:39, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

There are coaches like Mike Krzyzewski who coaches a club team concurrently with the national team, so I guess those can be omitted at the infobox. There are some cases like Pepu Hernández where a coach is coaching the national team exclusively, though. What happens to that? –HTD 22:11, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck: Not sure what you wanted to say with Hernández's example as he is not coaching anything at the moment. – Sabbatino (talk) 21:47, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

No reason to remove national teams from the infoboxes.Bluesangrel (talk) 00:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@Bluesangrel: It's not the first time you fail to give an opinion about something. Please state your reason on why it should remain? – Sabbatino (talk) 21:47, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Because not every guy player plays for the same national teams (plenty switch or countries change), and not for the same country they are even from.Bluesangrel (talk) 23:17, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Don't know why are you talking about players when this section is about coaches. Looks like you don't understand what was the question. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:09, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

I understood it perfectly well. It's the same for coaches and players, and more so for coaches.Bluesangrel (talk) 22:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Capacity of Aleksandar Nikolic Hall

Wikipedia lists this arena, Hall Aleksandar Nikolić, with a seating capacity of 5,878. However, it was since it was built listed with a 7,000 seating capacity, then one of 8,000 after it was renovated. Official sources always listed this capacity. Then the seating was updated, more seats added, less bleachers. So I am not sure what the capacity is now, but it keeps getting edited to 5,878 on Wikipedia, solely because the arena site lists that. However, the arena has much higher attendance than this in every single game, and the attendance is only counted as number of people seated in a fan seat. Meaning the 5,878 capacity is incorrect, and impossible. Just two examples, of which EuroLeague only counts fan seating, and people sitting in actual seats at the main hall (not VIP seats, not media seats, not boxes, not bleachers, none of that is counted in attendance)...I have tried to change the capacity of the arena (for years it was listed at 8,000 by FIBA for example), but it always gets reverted back, with the one source always being used as the only possible correct capacity figure.

Euroleague attendance of 6,453 ---> http://www.euroleague.net/main/results/showgame?gamecode=76&seasoncode=E2016

Euroleague attendance of 6,489 ---> http://www.euroleague.net/main/results/showgame?gamecode=90&seasoncode=E2016 - Bluesangrel (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

OK, there is no way that this article is listing anywhere close to the correct capacity of this arena. Now they had 7,648 attendance in the arena in EuroLeague (which only counts fans and in seats as attendance) ALEKSANDAR NIKOLIC Attendance: 7648 yet the article for the arena is still claiming a capacity of 5,878. Can someone else chime in here please?Bluesangrel (talk) 22:16, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

TFD notification

Please comment at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_10#Template:ESPNRISE_2000s_All-Decade_boys_basketball_team.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Ronald Roberts infobox

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 32 § Ronald Roberts infobox

Ronald Roberts has recently been released by his Turkish team. He signed in July 2016 [1] and parted ways with the team on January 2, 2017 [2]. His final game for the team came on December 10, 2016. Now – should his infobox list "2016–2017 Tofaş" or "2016 Tofaş"? Myself and Bozalegenda disagree on how it should be listed. I'm arguing that it should be "2016–2017" based off a long-standing norm that I felt came out of a discussion that was had in 2014 when we discussed an infobox case for Andrew Bynum (that discussion can be found here) i.e. once a player debuts for a team, the full tenure (or full time spent with the team) should be listed in the infobox. For Roberts, his tenure with Tofaş officially ran from 4 July 2016 to 2 January 2017. User:Bozalegenda on the other hand is arguing that 2017 should not be listed because he did not play in 2017. I do not think this is the established norm. What are people's thoughts on this? DaHuzyBru (talk) 18:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I support the "2016–2017" listing. Going by Bozalegenda's logic, we should list Joel Embiid's playing career as "2016–present" since he started playing this season, which is against the accepted standard. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

• List full tenure, not actual years played I think either method (tenure vs years actually appearing in a game) is arbitrary, and am OK with either as long as it is consistent. The years to be listed wasn't formally !voted on at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball/Archive_6#Teams_listed_in_biography_infobox. However, it seems that examples there from 2014 that still remain intact in 2017 like Seth Curry listing his full Memphis tenure, Andrew Bynum (Cleveland), or Maalik Wayns (LAC) indicate a precedence for listing full tenure, not years where they actually played in a game.—Bagumba (talk) 19:52, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Bynum and Embiid are not the same thing as Roberts. They were members of their clubs, but not played because of injuries. And Roberts played his last game on December 10, 2016, and left the club that same month, just official announcement was on January 2, 2017. He never appeared for his club in 2017, so it makes no sense to have that year in infobox. I was for years doing edits like this, and now in 2017 some of you have a problem with this? If someone signed on December 31, and make his debut in January next year it makes no sense to have both years in infobox. There are so many players (just some cases: Lamont Hamilton, Donnie Mcgrath, Nikos Zisis, Manny Harris, Dejan Musli, Justin Carter, Alex Acker...) with this kind of listing and this is how we always doing in European basketball. I dont know for NBA but in Europe this was always like this.--Bozalegenda (talk) 20:29, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

List the years played, otherwise it is way too confusing. No reason to have to find the EXACT sign and EXACT release dates of a player's contract, especially when they didn't even play at that time. And some players go years without playing but are still under contract, so doing it by contract is illogical.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:10, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

League specifiers in the basketball player infobox

I'm interested in gauging project member preference regarding the presence of league specifiers in the basketball player infobox. Two samples of infoboxes with and without league specifiers can be found in the edit diffs here [3] and here [4]. I had a brief discussion with Rikster2 (talk · contribs) on this matter and he suggested I bring it up here. To summarize, I find league specifiers useful in cases such as these as they give less knowledgeable readers an at-a-glance overview of a player's career league movement. I wouldn't expect them to be used all the time – typically only when a player's career spans two more more leagues. Rikster2 came up with some counterarguments that I'll repeat here:

1. They clog up the infobox, especially is the team or league/country name is long. Infoboxes are condensed space and we need to make choices about what they include. Adding country/league is somewhat useful, but at the expense of clean use of white space.
2. They are very American-centric. Country is used instead of league in every case except US minor/defunct leagues. But if you start to list league instead of country then you end up with a lot of leagues no one knows and it doesn't accommodate promotion/relegation which is common in European leagues.
3. There are many cases where a player only plays in one league their whole career. 5-6 entries of "Greece" or "ABA" looks pretty stupid. But if you remove some and not all you lose consistency.
4. Many more foreign and alternate-league teams now have articles so in most cases the reader can go to the club article to learn what league it was in.
5. They have become a crutch for not writing a full article. A number of articles are stubs that don't document player movement. A good article should talk about each team, where it was and how they performed. Do this and you don't need country/league in the infobox.

At this stage, I'd like to hear ideas and opinions on this topic. — Myasuda (talk) 02:32, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

IMO, this template should be similar to the football players' one. This thing you comment is more controversial in European basketball players. As a lot of European teams play more than one competition (EuroLeague, EuroCup, National league, Regional League, Cups…) and they also promote and relegate to other leagues, for me, I'd better display the template without specifying the leagues the club play in brackets, as Rikster proposes. Asturkian (talk) 07:19, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

The information is useful, but there's never been an elegant way to present it. NBA players suffered from point 2 above before, with the listings being American-centric e.g. list specific names of U.S league, list country otherwise.—Bagumba (talk) 08:07, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Rikster2's observations. Completely useless and takes infobox's space, which is supposed to be short. Moreover, a team might be relegated to the lower division and that would make even more problems. – Sabbatino (talk) 10:31, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm with Rikster2. I don't see the value in having the leagues or countries listed in the infobox. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

In theory, I'm okay with the league specifiers as long as you are very, very specific about which league on the hyperlink (for example, Spain and Spain, or Spain 2nd in the latter) That fixes the relegation problem and helps in cases in which the team articles do not specify when a team X was relegated or promoted, however, I'm aware not all posters are as careful as I once was. Intruder007 (talk) 07:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

That approach does not fix the relegation problem when a player is with a team through a relegation/promotion, in which case we started to get (Italian 1st/2nd) and things like that, which exacerbates the space constraint issue. I think everyone gets that I am against the league specifiers as Myasuda pasted my argument already. I am not saying they are useless, just that I think the use is minimal compared to the space crunch and aesthetic issues they create. I will also add that basketball is the only sports project that has used them. Rikster2 (talk) 22:08, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, they are not useless, just too hard to keep with the correct edits. But they are definitely not useless as far as info goes. Very few people that are even basketball fans in the USA for example have any idea that there is more than one basketball league in Europe, calling all basketball leagues in Europe pretty much almost universally as "Euroleague", never mind are they aware that each country has its own entire set of leagues, and different levels of leagues. It may be something known to editors here, but to 99% of the people reading the articles I would be very certain that it isn't. It definitely has a value, to know what actual league that was, versus just a person thinking that "it had to have been the Italian League", since the player played "in Italy" - but no, it could be 1st division, 2nd, whatever. The problem is I would often edit the articles to correct them, to show a player was actually playing in Spain 4th division, and after I edited that to the correct league, it would almost always be edited back to that they played in Spain 1st division, calling it "Spain". The discussion about it being American centric due to the country named for the league, and not for USA / NBA - it is also American centric in not knowing that there are dozens of leagues in Europe, and several in each country, from the viewpoint of readers and how everything can get divided up to "Europe" and "NBA" within the article's main sections. I mean, how else can you do it then, but that creates again this false idea that "Europe" is a single league called Euroleague, like USA/Canada is a single league (NBA). Maybe a way to fix this would be to add some options in the infoboxes for leagues played in, like the options for teams and years, that way it would take up less space. I don't know.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:30, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

It's not helpful at all. If you want to list leagues for other countries then why omit NBA from it? That's clearly double standards, and I'll repeat it again – useless clutter, which takes up space. – Sabbatino (talk) 06:27, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm in favor of ditching these. –HTD 12:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

It's useful to have the league specifier, but I stopped doing that because if I ever added it, someone just came by and immediately would remove them, or they would change the league. Example, a guy played in 2nd or 3rd or 4th level division of his country, and it would always get changed to the first tier, etc. It is helpful to have the league specifier, because many people know zero about any league other than NBA, but the problem is every time you try to add it, it just gets removed or edited wrongly.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:15, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Do we have a consensus here? Seems like we are 5-3 for not keeping these and I know of at least two other regular basketball contributors, User:DaHuzyBru and User:Bozalegenda who have voiced opposition to these before and actively remove them today. The only regular contributor I was pretty sure was in favor was User:Intruder007 and they have chimed in. Rikster2 (talk) 14:16, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I also vote to not add countries in infobox. If someone wants to see from which country is some club, he will just click on link. Also in Europe clubs are playing in two or three leagues so then you must add all leagues in infobox, not just one.--Bozalegenda (talk) 14:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Meh, I'll chime in – I vote to scrap also. I was a fan of them in the past but I do agree with Rikster's rationale. DaHuzyBru (talk) 16:15, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Comment - I am going to call this "consensus reached" as the clear preference is not to include these league qualifiers. If anyone objects and wants to continue the conversation, say so, but this discussion absolutely matches what I have seen as actual practice over the last few years. Rikster2 (talk) 15:33, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Erie BayHawks

I know this project usually moves the page when the franchise relocates, but how does it want to handle the Erie BayHawks? The franchise is being purchased and relocated by the Orlando Magic to Lakeland NBA Development League team next season. But the Atlanta Hawks have come to an agreement to operate their D-League team, current listed at College Park NBA Development League team, as the the BayHawks for the next two seasons per this confirmed announcement. This is a case of two franchises with the same organization, and by 2019, neither will be the BayHawks. Yosemiter (talk) 17:52, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I see someone has already moved the College Park page to Erie II? All reports state they will operate as the BayHawks for two seasons. Yosemiter (talk) 19:43, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Given that as of right now the Erie BayHawks are a team competing in the current NBDL season, seems like we should just document the move on the BayHawks page and just wait to move the page till the move/name are announced officially. Unless I am missing something Rikster2 (talk) 19:59, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

So, when the season ends, move the BayHawks to the Lakeland name and the Erie II to the BayHawks name? Or just keep the BayHawks as one page and document both franchises? The way they are all listed right now seems like they could use some direction. Yosemiter (talk) 20:03, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I get it. Seems like a Charlotte Hornets situation. The current BayHawks page becomes the Erie II franchise and move current BayHawks content to the Lakeland page and create a redirect for Erie BayHawks (2008–2017) to link it. Put a hatnote on the "new" Erie BayHawks page Rikster2 (talk) 20:27, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I might need some help then with all the page redirects. How does this project manage the info box for history (I am already getting some push back on the Lakeland location listed in the current BayHawks page). I am not sure if there is a directly comparable situation in basketball, though the Hornets situation may be the closest, but in the Hockey project, we have pages like St. John's IceCaps, Maine Mariners, and Fort Wayne Komets that deal with direct franchise transitions within an organization by documenting both on one page. But since that project does things very differently, I am looking for guidance. Yosemiter (talk) 20:55, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, I think it might just be best to cover the situation in the one BayHawks article and wait to see how it breaks out next year. Considering the Hornets situation, it is quite plausible that the NBA might consider the Lakeland franchise an expansion franchise and the BayHawks as one continuous franchise. (And what if he Bakersfield Jam return, as is expected?) oknazevad (talk) 01:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

We'll have to contact the D-League or management team (Erie Basketball Management) or the Atlanta Hawks/Orlando Magic for some clarification. The question we need to ask them is who will get the history of the team, the new or the old, ala Cleveland Browns/Baltimore Ravens. If it is the old team, which is moving to Florida, then the Lakeland page should have all the info while the new team starts off as an expansion team. If the new team gets the history, then everything should be copied over to the Erie II page while the old team starts off as an expansion. The redirects will probably be more straightforward after we've gotten some clarification. For the Jam, whenever they start, they should be an expansion team since their history has already moved with the team (Northern Arizona Suns). Roberto221 (talk) 10:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Unless they retcon it so the history goes back to Bakersfield exactly like the Hornets. oknazevad (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Regardless of what the league says (and it did reiterate in the Hawks/BayHawks press release that the original franchise is going to Lakeland, but that can always change), in my experience, the BayHawks will probably still market next season as their 10th season. One article would be simpler in my opinion, (who knows, maybe they will get the Wizards to give them a franchise in 2019 or something) and clearly designate what the two franchises were, one owned by the original management and sold to Orlando and the other owned by the Hawks and managed by the BayHawks. But it could be handled, with lots of description, if it is split by franchise as pages. Yosemiter (talk) 14:12, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Washington is supposed to get a suburban team at some point, which will share a venue with the Mystics, unless those plans have changed. And I don't think we should rely on the original Lakeland announcement when it comes to a which-franchise-is-which, as the later announcement of Atlanta's involvement changes things, clearly. I think we need to take a wait and see attitude here and not create any new articles yet. oknazevad (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The Wizards was just a hypothetical example of a further complication, I don't think their plans have changed. And the most recent press release (the one about the Hawks placing their franchise in Erie) DID reiterate that the Lakeland franchise is the purchased original Erie franchise, so the league has not yet changed its stance. Yosemiter (talk) 15:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Just as evidence that the two BayHawks are considered different teams/franchises, here is the direct statement on the updated NBADL expansion page: Yosemiter (talk) 22:33, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

"Four NBA franchises have purchased or intend to purchase NBA D-League affiliates. For the 2017-18 season: the Memphis Grizzlies have purchased an expansion team to begin play in Southaven, Miss.; the Orlando Magic have purchased the Erie BayHawks and intend to rename and relocate the team to Lakeland, Fla.; the Atlanta Hawks have purchased an NBA D-League affiliate that will begin play as the Erie BayHawks before relocating to College Park, Ga., in 2019-20; and the Minnesota Timberwolves have announced a letter of intent to purchase the Iowa Energy, the Grizzlies’ current affiliate."

"NBA Development League Expansion". NBA D-League. Retrieved February 5, 2017.

To me, this is just a change in ownership & affiliation. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@Blaylockjam10: Except it is clearly not just that. If you read the quote above, it states they are two different franchises (essentially different businesses). Players, ownership, affiliation, and (so far it is not yet a retroactive Hornets situation) franchise history are all different. The only commonality between the two is the name and managerial team (the former owners). I think it can be handled either way (one page on two franchises per my hockey examples above or two pages with the time based disambiguators) but so far I have not yet heard a consensus on how this project wants to handle situation. Yosemiter (talk) 22:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Consensus?

Looking for a consensus on this subject before it gets archived. It would appear that at the end the season the current Erie BayHawks page should be moved the Lakeland "Magic" (which already has page so they would have to be merged), redirect all links for the current BayHawks to the Lakeland page (with either the Lakeland name or a dab link such as Erie BayHawks (2008–17)), and then leave the second Erie BayHawks as just info on the BayHawks (2017–19). Please correct me if I am wrong here. Yosemiter (talk) 02:23, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Argentine basketball AfD

There is a Basketball-related AfD discussion underway for an Argentine player underway @ AfD Nicolas Aguirre. Tapered (talk) 01:59, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

AfD was a keep. Aguirre had sufficient reliable sources coverage in the Argentine press to meet notability requirements. Tapered (talk) 03:56, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

John Stockton article MUCH better than "Start" class!

Have a look at John Stockton. All phases of his career are covered. There's enough on his personal life to give the reader insight. This needs to be updated to "C" or "B." It's "Start" in several categories, but since it's most important to B-ball overall, let's start here. Tapered (talk) 04:01, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Flagrant Foul 1

In the Mississippi St. game vs U-Conn tonight, a flagrant 1 foul was called in overtime when a M.St.

player elbowed a U-Conn player in the neck. the officials reviewed the play a awarded the U-Conn player

2 free throws and the ball was in-bounded almost at half court. shouldn't the ball have been in-bounded

at the spot of the foul, at the base line instead of near half court? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikey 3pt Kanner (talk • contribs) 05:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

I haven't seen the game, but baseline throw-ins only happen if a ball is thrown out of bounds beyond the baseline. Throw-ins for flagrant fouls after free-throws are always at the sidelines nearest to the spot where the foul occurred. –HTD 06:40, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

MOS:TENSE

A discussion has developed at WP:MOS concerning team season articles. GoodDay (talk) 17:21, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposed merge of the Lakeland Magic to Erie BayHawks (2008–2017)

A continuation of never really finished discussion with @Rikster2:, @Oknazevad:, @Roberto221:, and @Blaylockjam10:. Last season, @DaHuzyBru: and @Intruder007: merged several articles in the D-League per the then-current consensus. (I argued against it then but either way works as long as it is consistent.) Now that it is ALL one franchise, one page style, the Lakeland Magic and Erie BayHawks (2008–2017) are again two pages for one franchise. There is already another page for the Erie BayHawks (2017–) that will eventually move the Atlanta area. So if someone wants to merge the Magic back into the BayHawks 1.0 (to preserve the extensive edit history) and the move the BayHawks over the Magic name, I started the discussion at Talk:Erie BayHawks (2008–2017). Yosemiter (talk) 03:28, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Convention for trades in Draft pages

Do we have a convention for how trades are handled in articles about basketball drafts, e.g. 2017 WNBA draft?

If we don't, I'm going to suggest one:

• If a trade occurs on draft day, then the table identifying the draft results should include the initial team selecting the player and the team where a player ends up.

• If a trade occurs following the draft day but before the season starts, the trade should be entered in a subsequent section which I am tentatively calling "post-draft-day trades"

• If a trade occurs after the season starts it's no longer relevant for the draft page and would be identified on the relevant team pages.

That's just off the top of my head as a placeholder — if we already have a convention either explicit or implicit please let me know. If we don't have one we probably should.--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:22, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Basketball images

At Talk:2017 McDonald's All-American Boys Game, I have posted some image galleries as I have done in years past. I could use some feedback on selecting the preferred image for each player. For many players this image will be their main image for a long time (over a half dozen players still have their 2013 McDonald's All-American Boys Game image as their main image). For others this image will be their main image at a time of high exposure (the top 3 players in the 2016 NBA draft and 2 of the top 3 in the 2015 NBA draft had MCDAAG images as their main image on draft day). Please help me choose the preferred image for the readers. If you like an image that seems to dark, I can do some post processing to improve the image.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:51, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Turkey/TRNC at EuroCup Women

Hi, there are some editors (IP and registered) who are changing the Turkish flag of a team to a flag of the Turkish Cyprus, at EuroCup Women and 2016–17 EuroCup Women articles. I've explained them several times that the TRNC is not recognized by anybody but Turkey as a Federation or as a country, and that team represents the Turkish league as Monaco represents France in the Champions League or Andorra represented Spain at the old Korać Cup. Can you help me with this editors, protecting the page or establishing a real criteria? Asturkian (talk) 09:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Ronnie McCollum update?

Does anyone have a subscription to EuroBasket, because there's no way Ronnie McCollum still plays for Houthalen. He's probably retired altogether is my guess, but I can't verify his teams from 2011-on. Jrcla2 (talk) 02:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Pretty sure User:DaHuzyBru does. Rikster2 (talk) 02:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@DaHuzyBru: – Do you have EuroBasket? If so can you please look into McCollum's 2011-on career history? Jrcla2 (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Jrcla2: This is what Eurobasket has-

2011-2012: CUVA Houthalen (Belgium-D3, starting five)
2012-2013: CUVA Houthalen (Belgium-Division II, starting five): 20.6ppg
2013-2014: Cuva Houthalen (Belgium-Division II, starting five)
2014-2015: Cuva Houthalen (Belgium-Division II, starting five)
2015-2016: Cuva Houthalen (Belgium-Top Division I, starting five): 27 games: Score-1(20.2ppg), 6.3rpg, Assists-4(3.0apg), 1.3spg, FGP: 54.9%, 3PT: 38.4%, FT-2(91.9%)

He does not / did not have a team for 2016–17 according to his Eurobasket profile. DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Women in Red online editathon on sports

		Welcome to Women in Red's May 2017 worldwide online editathon. Participation is welcome in any language.
		"Sports"

(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list) --Ipigott (talk) 12:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

RFC on sports notability

An RFC has recently been started regarding a potential change to the notability guidelines for sportspeople. Please join in the conversation. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 23:07, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report

We – Community Tech – are happy to announce that the Popular pages bot is back up-and-running (after a one year hiatus)! You're receiving this message because your WikiProject or task force is signed up to receive the popular pages report. Every month, Community Tech bot will post at Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 11/Popular pages with a list of the most-viewed pages over the previous month that are within the scope of WikiProject Basketball.

We've made some enhancements to the original report. Here's what's new:

• The pageview data includes both desktop and mobile data.
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• The report will include the total pageviews for the entire project (including redirects).

We're grateful to Mr.Z-man for his original Mr.Z-bot, and we wish his bot a happy robot retirement. Just as before, we hope the popular pages reports will aid you in understanding the reach of WikiProject Basketball, and what articles may be deserving of more attention. If you have any questions or concerns please contact us at m:User talk:Community Tech bot.

Warm regards, the Community Tech Team 17:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Conflict of interest tag

Would anyone in the WP:BASKETBALL community care to have a look at Nick VanderLaan and consider removing the conflict of interest tag? The page was tagged because I, the article creator, had correspondence with the subject. The point of the tag is to note that the article may be written from a non-neutral point of view, or with a bias, or with a promotional stance – from my point of view, it clearly does not fall into any of those categories. I wrote it with a goal and tone just like any other article I have created. Per my rationale at the article's talk page and at the AfD, I feel the tag is unjust and I'd like the tag to be removed. As I am the article creator, I am not in a position to remove it myself. Does anyone else agree that the tag is unjust and should be removed? Per Help:Maintenance template removal, basically anyone can remove such a tag other than the user in question (me). Points made by two users at the AfD — "And there's nothing in the article that strikes me as promotional" and "Article is well-written and well-sourced and written by an experienced editor, so I'm not concerned about WP:COI anyway." — seem to comply with the guidelines at WP:WTRMT i.e. the "When to remove" guidelines have been met. I appreciate the time anyone takes to looking into my case. Cheers. DaHuzyBru (talk) 13:47, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Tag removed, as I'm not seeing that it's still a concern.—Bagumba (talk) 18:14, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Royce White NBL Canada MVP details

It is my understanding that Royce White has become the NBL Canada MVP. I can't find the official press release to see how close the vote was and who the other contenders were. If you can help me, drop a note at Talk:Royce_White#Royce_White_NBL_Canada_MVP_detail.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:54, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

You should ask User:TempleM directly. He's the NBL Canada guru. But he doesn't post every day. Rikster2 (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

FIBA URLs broken

FIBA have broken all their player profile URLs; it seems that anything containing www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/gamecent/p/pid/, for example, will no longer work. Even the IDs are not maintained. The profile that was at:

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/gamecent/p/pid/6042456/playerview.html

is now at:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/p/rpp//q//pid/71586/_//players.html

Good luck fixing all that :-( Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:27, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Chris Roupas

I tried to clean this article Chris Roupas, up a little bit....but I have some serious doubts about it. I am really suspicious about the authenticity of some of the stuff in this article. Can anyone help with this?Bluesangrel (talk) 20:29, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I think it is bogus. Would support an AfD. Can anyone verify this dude played in the top Greek League? Rikster2 (talk) 20:53, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

He did, if the team is Ionikos and not Aiolos. Asturkian, here the link to the 1982–83 season that he theorically played if so. Asturkian (talk) 21:29, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 ::Chris Roupas did play professional basketball in Greece. We even have his old FIBA card. Should we add more photos with verification?  Let me know what else you would like in the article.Thank you  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PSUSTATS (talk • contribs) 22:00, 12 May 2017 (UTC) 

I would also like to offer all our other stories and photos to you for you to assist in making this article more useful.PSUSTATS (talk) 22:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

We have Chris Roupas's original Amateur Basketball Association of the United States of America International Player License Travel Permit. It says on the front side that this will certify that Chris Roupas is a registered amateur player eligible for FIBA basketball competition during 1982-83. His player number on the card you can use when you contact them for verification is 2 442. It is signed by William L. Wall, Executive Director, 1750 East Boulder Street, Colorado Springs, CO, 80909. Phone 903-632-7687. Does anyone think I should upload this document and incorporate it into the article showing what players back then had to have paperwork wise in order to play abroad? Any further suggestions or help would be appreciated. Thank you.PSUSTATS (talk) 14:58, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

The question is did he play in Greece top division, which bask then was split into different leagues than it is now. What used to be called simply A national category. The issue is did he play in that league, which is what is the guideline for Wikipedia. I don't honestly think Aiolos was ever playing in Greece's first league in any of those days.Bluesangrel (talk)

From what sources I have he did. But, the story is not as straight forward as I would like it to be. The 1982-83 Greek Basketball season as other seasons in that era do not have the sources like are available now for us to use. You can look at a article on David Stergakos who played for Panathinaikos that season. The article mentions he played college basketball under the name David Nelson at Bloomfield College in the United States. Chris Roupas played at first under the name Thanassi Kappos. He played in one game with AEK in which he had four points but sprained his ankle and was playing the next week with Larissa in two games and then from what my sources tell me, he played with Aiolos the rest of the season. Both AEK and Larissa were A league teams based on Wikipedia sources. Austurkian mentions Aiolos may have been Ionikos which also based on Wikipedia, is an A league team and at this time with all the name changes going on with the lower teams in the league, he might be right. I do know that several of the basketball teams bounced from the A league to the B league during that era not only based entirely upon their win loss record, but also in the form of not paying required fees to the league. A story also not covered so much is why these players during that time had two different names. Teams back then could only have two players from the United States on their team at a time. Over that limit, teams found a way to get around that number by changing players names. The photos of Roupas playing in the article were against Panellinios and it mentions his game against Apollon Patras, both A league teams for sure. Either Aiolos was Ionikos for those photos or Aiolos played in the A league for a short time before moving back to the B league. Aiolos is now in the A league but their article states they were founded in 1990 with a modified name, Aiolos Astakos. It appears from the discussions on this page that more information is valuable and that we should incorporate this information of Roupas with his name change and his short tenure with AEK and Larrisa into the article as well.PSUSTATS (talk) 21:50, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

The reason for the two names was because at that time no foreign players could play in Greek League. Only players with full Greek citizenship could. No Americans, allowed, no foreign players of any kind. So for an American or other foreigner to play in the Greek League, they had to be of Greek diaspora, meaning that at least one of their parents had Greek citizenship, or at least one of their grandparents was from Greece. So in the case of Roupas, Stergakos, Kurt Rambis who played in Greece at the same era...they had to be of Greek diaspora, or they could not play in the league. The names might have changed because sometimes the name would be changed to match their Greek name. Say if the family name they came from was Stergakos, or, it might be changed if the name they used in USA was simply a name the family had picked to sound more American. Like Rambis' family name was Rambidis, and it was changed or "Americanized" to Rambis, to sound less Greek. Sometimes, for example, the name was changed to sound less Greek and more American, but in taking Greek citizenship they still kept the name used in USA, simply because it still had a Greek name within it. Example, Nick Galis, was called just that way "Nick Galis" in USA, but his actual Greek name was Nikos Georgallis. Galis still sounds Greek if you will, so that name stayed. Or same issue with Steve Giatzoglou, he played in Greece in 70s and 80s from America. His American name was Steve Young, which sounds better in America and less Greek, than the Greek form of Steve Giatzoglou. So it really wasn't two names, just the fact that Greek law wanted Greek diaspora to use their Greek names, and not ones they took to seem more American. If that makes sense.

• As far as Chris Roupas becoming Thanasis Kappos - that would only be necessary if he had no Greek parents and was not Greek diaspora. Which means in that case, he would have to take some kind of fake name to get Greek citizenship. I don't know about that being realistic, because first, that would cost a club a lot of money to do that just for a player from college to play a year (seems highly unlikely, especially in a smaller club like the two speculated he might have played in), and also because it seems odd that would even be the case with a last name like Roupas, which is without any doubt definitely a Greek name. Meaning, he should have been a Greek diaspora. With such a Greek last name as Roupas, there would be no reason to change his name to Kappos.Bluesangrel (talk)
• About Aiolos club...that's not Aiolos Astakou B.C., that a totally different club. The original club of Aiolos, was Aiolos Trikalon, and it would be today Trikala Aries BC, which started in 1993. Aiolos Astakou never was in Greek A division. Trikala Aries was never in it until the last few years. So the name for the club Aiolos is clearly wrong, if he did play in Greek A League, which was what they called top division before it divided into two leagues in 1986 (A1 and A2 - second division). So as was said here earlier, if he was in Greece A league in 1982-1983, it clearly could not have been in a club called Aiolos. This is what confuses me mainly about the article. He should have been in one of these teams,
• Aris
• Panathinaikos
• PAOK
• AEK
• Olympiacos
• Iraklis
• Panionios
• Ionikos Nikaias
• Apollon Patras
• Dimokritos BC
• Panellinios
• GS Larissas
• Esperos Kallitheas
• Pierikos BC, which today is Archelaos Pierikos BC

Bluesangrel (talk) 23:01, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Your commentary is well written Bluesangrel and I agree with you.You are correct in saying that Aiolos was Aiolos Trikalon and the Chris Roupas article also reflects this. The discussion on this page is where the Aiolos Astakou was incorrectly mentioned by me.You are also correct in saying that Chris Roupas was of greek descent. He used the name Thanassi Kappos in a several player deal that was used to accommodate a more notable player. As the year wore on, Roupas realized that he was used only for this in the pre-season and first week with AEK and the second week with Larissa. He was able to use his real name when he went to Aiolos as both his grandparents were born in Greece and were of Greek diaspora as you correctly say. This movement and positioning of players involving Roupas to accommodate a more notable player left a sour taste with Roupas and he chose not to return the following year. I spent this last week researching whether Aiolos was in the A-league at that time and you are correct, they were not. The article doesn't say they were but it doesn't mention his short stay with AEK and Larissa which would meet the notability guidelines and I will edit the article to show this information now.I know now that playing with Aiolos at that time does not meet the notability guidelines but Wikipedia does say that playing in one game in the Greek League does meet the guidelines so it is very important that I show that he did play with AEK and Larissa even though it was very brief. Thank you for your insight as we all work to improve this article.PSUSTATS (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

One thing I am still looking into and maybe one of you can help me. Aiolos being a B-league team played two A-league teams in the 1982-83 season which I mention in the Chris Roupas article. They played Panellinios and Apollon Patras both A-League teams. Should I elaborate further in the article that these were two games played across league lines so as not to confuse readers who may wonder why an A and B team played each other?PSUSTATS (talk) 23:39, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

In Greece, the clubs play in two domestic competitions. They play in the League, and also in the Greek Basketball Cup. Back before their wewre two professional divisions (A1 and A2), there was the A division as first level and B division as second level of leagues. Today, the B league would be third division. Today, the clubs from A1 (Greek Basket League) play against the clubs from A2 (Greek A2 Basket League). Back in the time early 80s, it would have been clubs from A against clubs from B. None of this would be in league play, but would happen in the Greek Cup tournament. other than that, it would have been like preseason exhibition games. So if those teams from the first division were playing teams from a lower league in official games, it had to have been during the Greek Cup.Bluesangrel (talk) 08:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I looked up the B league for 1982-1983 season. In that league there was a club called EA Larissa, and also a club called EA Patras. There was also another club called AEP Patras. There was also a club called SA Aiolos, which was based on Athens and became known as SA Aiolos-Tavros 2006 in 2006. So, it is very possible that the "Patras" team he played against was either EAP Patras or EA Patras, and that the club he played with was SA Aiolos of Athens. This would mean that he must have played against Panellinios in the Greek Cup, if it was stated he played then with Aiolos, because they could not have played in the same league. The only way then he could play in Greek first league, was if he played in AEK. The "Patras" team from first division of 1982-1983 season is called Apollon Patras and the "Larissa" first division team from that season is called GS Larissas. But these are definite different clubs from EA Larissa, EA Patras, and AEP Patras that were in the second division that same season. So the question is, what team do they mean by "Patras", and what team do they mean by "Larissa"? There was 1 Patras team and 1 Larissa team in first division that year, and 1 Larissa team and 2 Patras teams in 2nd division that year. Anyway, the club of "Aiolos" that he played with would have been called SA Aiolos Athens, and today is called SA Aiolos Tavros 2006. So he didn't play in the club of Aiolos Trikallon, now called Aries Trikala.Bluesangrel (talk) 08:25, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Than you Bluesangrel for the information. You are correct in saying that the Aiolos Chris Roupas played on changed their name to Aiolos Tavros. Letterheads I have from Aiolos in 1983 have the word Tavros I can make out from the greek words in the address which I looked up and show that Tavros is a neighborhood in southwestern Athens. Thank you for the information on Larissas, that was a good catch. Gymnasticos S.Larissas was the team he played on for two games in the A league. I put the wrong link in the article as both Larissas came up and I incorrectly thought the Gymnastikos referred to a gymnastics team. The Apollon Patras was the team he played against with Aiolos, the same Appollon Patras he played against with the USA Ahepa team in the summer of 1982. I will update the article to reflect the correct Larissas team and to show Aiolos is now Aiolos Tavros. It is an article in itself to keep up with all the name changes of the teams. You did a great job keeping the team names straight. Thank you again for your insight in making this article more accurate. PSUSTATS (talk) 14:52, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, so then, when he played against Apollon Patras, it was in exhibition games then involing USA teams, and then with Aiolos was in Greek Cup (not the league competition), or also an exhibition game?Bluesangrel (talk) 23:05, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I should also ask, it says he was with the AHEPA team playing these games. The thing is, AHEPA teams only play against the junior Greek teams, they don't play against the actual Greek clubs. So in the games where AHEPA played on exhibition, those were not against the actual Greek teams, but against their junior clubs. So the article should probably \clarify it was not against the senior men's teams of those clubs, but against their youth teams. Typically AHEPA teams play against under-21 and under-18 teams of Greek clubs, but they never play against the professional clubs.Bluesangrel (talk) 23:10, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

You have very good insight Bluesangrel with your questions on the Chris Roupas article. The article never mentioned whether or not the game Roupas played against Appllon Patras or Panellinios was an exhibition game or not and your commentary raises a good point. I took some time to research this. The source did not mention it, it just mentioned the score and what Roupas did. I have the Super Basket magazines from that year, 1982-83. The December 1982 magazine mentions the game with Aiolos and Appollon Patras. The November 1982 magazine mentions the game with Panellinios. So, it had to be an exhibition game as the cup is played at the end of the seaon. I edited to article to now show these two games were exhibition games. I have a contact at the greek church who will translate the rest of the story to see what else we can put in the article. As for the AHEPA team, I have a lot of material on the AHEPA teams and if you or anyone wants to create an article on them, let me know. It has been on my to do list but I never got around to creating one. You are correct in saying that the AHEPA teams typically played the junior teams. Between 1970 and 2000, AHEPA has sent eleven teams to Greece. This team in 1982 that Roupas played on was a little different as they brought over only players who played in college. Also, greek basketball officials coordinated by greek basketball coach Michalis Kiritsis used several notable greek players from the A-League to travel with the AHEPA teams to play against them on the greek teams whose rosters were depleted by players who wanted a break from the greek season and would not participate. Notable greek players included Kirk Vidas of Panathinaikos, Panagiotis Giannakis of Ionikos Nikaias, Vassilis Goumas of AEK, and Albert Mallach of Panellinios. Giannakis and Mallach played in most of the games against the AHEPA team. I have updated the article to now show that these greek teams were not at full strength and were supplemented by junior players and several notable players.I have a contact who I just found out has several hundred photos from the AHEPA team playing against the greek teams on this particular trip in 1982. As soon as I get them, look thru them, and get permission to use the ones for the article I want, I will include them. I have a question, I have a photo from a Super Basket magazine i would like to put in the Chris Roupas article. I have attempted to contact them several times over the last six years and I never heard back. They may not even be in business. Does anyone know what else I can do to get permission to use the photo from their magazine if they never respond or is that it and I would be out of luck to use that particular photo? Thank you again Bluesangrel for making this article even more accurate. PSUSTATS (talk) 19:08, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, but I would try their twitter account here [5] Bluesangrel (talk) 07:10, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

How do we deal with IPs just changing heights and weights over and over?

Like here is an example [6], but I find similar types of examples all the time. It's impossible to go through them all and try to fix them, when so many IPs do that.Bluesangrel (talk) 07:05, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

If it's a specific article, it can be protected. If it's an active IP, they can be blocked.—Bagumba (talk) 07:51, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Juwan Howard event

I noticed a spike in page views for Juwan Howard. All I can find is this. I feel that there must have been an event in his life worth considering for being included in this article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:22, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Braydon Hobbs

Braydon Hobbs: Can anybody please take care of the edit warring that is going on there? I don't know how to resolve it and it's getting too crazy. Thanks! Zamekrizeni (talk) 20:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

BIG3

If you look at articles of Rashard Lewis, Mike Bibby, Stephen Jackson or many other players you will see thats some editors added BIG3 league, which is 3-on-3 tournament, and not professinal basketball league. I started to remove that from articles, but they keep putting back that. I think that we should delete that from infbox. What the other basketball users think about this?--Bozalegenda (talk) 11:52, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I wanted to ask the same question at WT:NBA right now, but since I saw this discussion I notified that project. I am against the addition of that league in the infoboxes. It is silly when a player has been retired for 30 or 40 years and he suddenly becomes "active". In my opinion, categories for that league are enough. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

The infobox generally is summary data found in the article body (Help:Infobox). What caught my eye before seeing this discusison was the (new) structured text atop the Gary Payton infobox is a callout re Head coach of "3 Headed Monsters" in BIG3. There is zero corresponding coverage in the article body. Same/similar across other players. This placement strikes me as undue. UW Dawgs (talk) 01:58, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@Smashcentury: as a source of some of the recent BIG3 content edits, can you shed some light, here? UW Dawgs (talk) 01:50, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

This is like an over 35 league, or even over 40 league. Even though the money involved would make it professional, I think it has to be classed differently somehow. Like say, the senior tour for PGA or something.Bluesangrel (talk) 18:40, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Unless there is consensus that this is a bigger deal, I'd say keep it out of infobox and opening sentence in lead. Can mention later in lead and in prose.—Bagumba (talk) 23:18, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, the thing is that Wikipedia is made to give information to the people, and where they are playing currently is a piece of useful information. Rashad Mcants is marked currently as a free agent, but he's playing in the BIG3 League, so he's not technically free agent nor he'd me able to sign with an NBA team if he'd want to. Not only that, other 3x3 players do have their information displayed in their infobox. So what, when are going to be sitting here ignoring the BIG3 league and denying information to the people interested and act like nothing happened? Like AI doesn't have a contract and is working at a league currently playing? Why? Only because in our selfish hearts we "feel like it" and because "it isn't the nba"? Nah man, that's not how information should work, it should be for the people, not for us.

Remi1771 (talk) 19:39, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Agree that McCants should not be listed as a free agent. However, I dont see Big3 as significant enough to be in the infobox or in the opening of the lead. Add it to the lead after his 5-on-5 accomplishments, and add sourced content about Big3 to the body.—Bagumba (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I am with Bagumba on this. It definitely should be in the article, but 3x3 is essentially a different game than traditional basketball. Shouldn't be in the infobox. If BIG3 looks like it will be a long-term, on-going concern then we can reevaluate but right now it just feels inconsistent. Rikster2 (talk) 13:51, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

But McCants is actually a free agent. Big3 is played during the summer and is just 3 on 3 tournament, not pro basketball (5 on 5, on full court)... McCants will find pro team when season starts, and this is just summer tournament. If we add Big3 teams to infobox, then why not to add all summer league teams to infobox? --Bozalegenda (talk) 13:59, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

But then again... why wouldn't Allen Iverson be part of the same category. What if Mcants doesn't go to a team? Also, if 3x3 is to be considered as a different sport, then the "summer league" argument is invalid, because is the main league. Whether it is played or not on summer has nothing to do. I think he could be listed as both: NBA player and a BIG3 player, because he is both.

I understand that BIG3 is not professional (although what defines the professionality of something?) but it is popular. The information should be there because it is relevant. Maybe not in the infobox but definitely in the lead as it is a piece of information that is current and relevant. If BIG3 fails, then of course it shall be removed from the lead, otherwise I think the information should be provided. Also, we should delete the 3x3 teams from all players, even those who only compete in 3x3. It'd ridiculous if some players have it but others don't. Either that or we use a system to determine whether the 3x3 basketball information should be displayed. Remi1771 (talk) 18:07, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with the opinion that BIG3 information should not be included in the infobox. Contrary to some previous posts, the BIG3 is a professional league. The players get drafted, signed, traded, cut, and most importantly, paid, just like any other professional league. On top of that, 3v3 basketball will be part of the 2020 Olympics. I think that completely ignoring it in the infobox is a disservice to the player and to the league. Perhaps a compromise? The infobox could be notated to show that it is 3v3, e.g., "Allen Iverson currently plays for 3s Company of the BIG3 basketball league (3v3)". That way it is not ignored but it's also clear that it's not 5v5. 2600:387:6:807:0:0:0:AD (talk) 02:23, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I am against the addition of that league in the infoboxes. In my opinion, categories for that league are enough. --AlfaRocket (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Manny Harris infobox

I apoligize, I asked at the wrong talk (WP:CBBALL). This is a foreign basketball highlights quetion: A recent edit to Manny Harris has removed some POY content from the infobox. I do not understand the reasoning behind this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:30, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

asia-basket.com is a site award, not an official league award. We generally don't list those. It'd be like listing "Bleacher Report NBA MVP." Rikster2 (talk) 17:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Shea Ili

Hi all. User:Schwede66 tagged Shea Ili with being written like an advertisement and requiring copy editing. I challenge anyone in the basketball community to have a look over the article and see if any copy editing needs to be done. I was thorough in my research and source gathering for the article. I certainly did not set out to write a player ad, nor is it WP:OR. I wrote the article with the same tone, goal and neutrality as any other article I've created here. I appreciate the time and consideration anyone gives to the article, as I'd like the tags to be removed as soon as possible. Cheers. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:17, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Just a few examples: "Ili began to shine" is WP:Peacock. "Rangers' standouts in 2013 despite them just winning just two games" sounds like puffery, too, but looking at the source, we have a different problem: "Rangers standouts despite them just winning just two games" - it's a copyvio. "The lure of playing alongside experienced guards Luke Martin and Kevin Braswell at the Sharks was enough for Ili to put pen to paper" just doesn't sound like encyclopaedic writing to me. I suggest this needs a bit of work; shouldn't be too hard to get it into shape; it's otherwise a good article. Schwede66 07:35, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Copying ten words from a source isn't copyvio – there's nothing particularly unique about that wording. I was merely copying verbatim i.e. it's not my made-up POV/OR – it's what the source's author uses. The Luke Martin and Kevin Braswell mention also provides a bit of context and is not uncommon for a fleshed out basketball player article to have such detail – again, a simple sentence copied verbatim (not my POV or OR). Still, I tweaked the lead accordingly to remove "began to shine". DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:53, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

DaHuzyBru, if and when you are happy with the improvements, feel free to remove the tags. Schwede66 09:20, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Please weigh in on a proposal to merge two basketball infoboxes

Discussion here - Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 August 29#Template:Infobox basketball official. Please weigh in as there may be modifications to the base template needed. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 23:30, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Front office tenure in bio infobox

FYI

There is a discussion on whether front office tenures should be added to a bio's infobox at Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography#Request:_Include_general_manager_or_front_office_parameters_.2F_template_data.—Bagumba (talk) 07:06, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Third opinion at Royce White

An IP editor overhauled Royce White. I am tempted to revert, but I think I might be too involved in the article and there are some merits to the changes.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:03, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

EuroBasket 2017 squads

Could someone help with EuroBasket 2017 squads page and the templates inside it? There is one user, who goes against the consensus and changes teams for all the players when the consensus is that we list the last season's team. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Either tell or show him that what's on the EuroBasket's website for each team is the official roster for that specific nation for EuroBasket 2017. I don't know why that user seems so adamant on going against such conventional wisdom. - AGreatPhoenixSunsFan (talk) 01:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Official website lists teams for the 2017–18 season, while the FIBA EuroBasket 2017 Event Guide lists the 2016–17 season's teams. I understand that people might list whatever is on the official website, but the consensus is clear. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:19, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Talk to the editor instead of the standard warning templates. Kante4 (talk) 11:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

User:Sabbatino, if you feel like there is a clear consensus established on this matter then link the discussion for the user. Once you do that just put warnings on them. If you can't find a clear discussion to link then this means there probably isn't as clear a consensus as you think. Rikster2 (talk) 19:53, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Consensus makes no sense. Because it says "last club". Even though it says "played for", in sports terminology that actually means who you were signed with. So that is extremely confusing.Bluesangrel (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Personally I have always felt like it should be the team the person is under contract for at the time of the tournament. Rikster2 (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it should be, like in the football articles, the last season's team. It's the one where they did the merits for going with them and not a club where they did not play any game yet. Asturkian (talk) 20:39, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this is correct way and it's very retarded that this thing comes up every year with major tournament. Why should you name newly signed team if player even had no games and no practices with that team? Last team where player played is important in this context and last team played played for needs to be mentioned here. Not newly signed team where he has 0 games, 0 minutes, 0 nothing. Kraucrow (talk) 08:48, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Because if a new club is official, they are the ones who are "claiming" the player and reporting on his performance to their fans, as the Golden State Warriors did in 2016 with Kevin Durant and as they are doing this year with Omri Casspi. Neither had played a game for the franchise. That is just one example. This is a very clear reason why fans identify players with their new team. Rikster2 (talk) 12:42, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

So what? They can report anything they like. You are talking about marketing and we are talking about facts in online encyclopedia. That's the difference. Kraucrow (talk) 19:30, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

It is because their team of record when the tournament starts is the new team, not the one they played for 6 months ago. And as Sabbatino showed, there is a discrepancy with how the tournament itself lists players between the website and the event guide (both official documents). Look, I decided long ago not to get into this particular battle again so I generally don't change these anymore (in fact, I added the USA roster to the 2017 AmeriCup page using previous year team and another user updated them to current team), but you're being willfully blind if you don't see a reason that editors will change these to the current club. Pick whatever policy you want, you will still be battling other users every tournament because there is a logic to both previous year team and current team. Rikster2 (talk) 19:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I think there is an error in reasoning that it should be the last club they played a game with, and not the current team they belong to. It's that these summer tournaments are somehow connected to the previous sports league season. That is the obvious reasoning and rationale fort that. However, they are not connected to any sports league season, and if anything, definitely more connected to the upcoming season, and not the previous one, as Rikster pointed out.Bluesangrel (talk) 19:59, 14 September 2017 (UTC)