Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 4

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Jeanie Buss

I recreated Jeanie Buss as a redirect as a Jerry Buss. Maybe it's me, but I think she warrants her own article. She's been Executive VP of Business Operations for 14 years. Her article was speedied 5 years ago for copyright reasons. Any takers to rewrite it (correctly this time)? caknuck _° needs to be running more often 04:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

{{Wheelchair basketball classifications}}

The template: basketball classifications template is missing classifications for basketball that are not wheelchair basketball. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 07:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Because the template is for Wheelchair basketball classification, not for Wheelchair basketball and ID basketball. A template for wheelchair basketball would not expected to have other classifications. Classes =/= Classification.--LauraHale (talk) 10:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Wheelchair basketball =/= basketball , while wikt:classification is a manner of placing things in classes. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 12:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Outdoor basketball

Currently articles - Arthur Ashe Stadium and Rod Laver Arena - make claim to being the first basketball venue for a professional basketball match. Just wondering if there is some official sort of determination of a record like this.Hack (talk) 05:28, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't immediately find a clear answer, but my guess is that the first outdoor pro game happened long before ether event mentioned in those articles. The people who first reported those claims probably didn't consider the short-lived leagues of the early twentieth century, or the various barnstorming teams. Basketball was played outdoors in its Olympic debut, although that wouldn't count as professional.

By the way, I fixed one of those links. Zagalejo^^^ 18:08, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Feedback requested on the best way to expand coverage of the history of women's basketball

I would like to expand the coverage of women's basketball history.

There seem to be three logical places for coverage of the history

1. Women's basketball
2. Basketball
3. History of basketball

In order to keep discussions together, I am posting this teaser on the talk pages of the three articles listed, plus the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Women's sport and Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball. I'll post a more complete post on Talk:Women's_basketball and urge anyone with any feedback to post it there.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Joey Dorsey

Anyone know what his status is? Is he still under contract with Olympiacos? He's still listed on the team's website (and is shown on the Olympiacos roster at the Euroleague site and Eurobasket.com), but he had said earlier that he was leaving. Thanks. Zagalejo^^^ 00:40, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Bs templates

I created these two templates (similar to football templates): Template:Bs cl2 header navbar and Template:Bs cl2 team, example of usage. So everybody is welcomed to make things look better. I'm currently working on Latvian Wikipedia with these team tournaments, so I don't have very much time to do things by myself, so any help is appreciated. --Edgars2007 ^{(talk/contribs)} 16:03, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Classification to Disability Classification redirect

Template:Basketball classifications has been nominated for deletion, please see WP:RFD. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 07:14, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Wheelchair basketball

The project page says Wheelchair basketball is within scope of this wikiproject. Is that something everyone is happy with? If yes, can we build a taskforce for Wheelchair basketball? If not, those of us interested in wheelchair basketball will need to create a separate wikiproject. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 16:43, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support creation of a Task Force. I have also notified WikiProkect Paralympics and WikiProkect Disability about this. Roger (talk) 17:01, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Support creation of a task force. --LauraHale (talk) 20:33, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Game highs in schedule tables

Can we discuss these point/rebound/assist leaders columns that are being added to schedule templates? Does anyone else think that they make the page overcrowded, hard to read, and, well, kind of ugly?

Take a look at 2011–12 Wisconsin Badgers men's basketball team. Yuck. It's way too hard for me to tell the score of a game at a glance. Especially so if you have a smaller screen, because you will get a line break in the middle of the game score.

Now, look at 2011–12 Ohio State Buckeyes men's basketball team. So much easier to read, right?

In my opinion, this is not necessary information anyway. Team stats can be better represented in a separate table, such as the one on 2011–12 Florida Gators men's basketball team..... Thoughts? ~ Richmond96 T • C 02:35, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

No. No. No. No. What part of "no" don't these crufters understand? The essential information to be included in the season records table is game date, opponent and score; everything else is optional and needs to be prioritized for inclusion based on readability and space available. The inclusion of games stats is way, way over the line. The tables are supposed to provide information at a glance, not the team water girl's stat game-by-game stat book. If someone wants to create a separate table for game highs, I'm willing to look at it, but including game stats will clutter these tables to the detriment of their intended purpose.

BTW, this should be posted on the talk page for WikiProject College Basketball. A lot of the WP:CBB regulars will want to have something to say about this. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:38, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Ha! That's actually where I thought I was posting this. Thanks. ~ Richmond96 T • C 23:23, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

(Discussion now at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball#Game highs in schedule tables)

Age group medal boxes

What is the policy on Medal boxes for the U16-U21 FIBA championships? I have seen them inconsistently deployed in and around the infoboxes. I use them in all of the articles that I create such as Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor, Nik Stauskas and Quincy Miller. I added one to Andrew Wiggins. I have noticed that many players do not use such boxes including most of the 2010 FIBA Under-17 World Championship USA gold medalists such as Bradley Beal, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, James Michael McAdoo, Marquis Teague, Tony Wroten and Andre Drummond. The only player on the team with an article and the medals box is Quinn Cook. I know that we have a policy against navboxes for age group national teams. However, I thought there was support for medal boxes.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Basketball USA

With ESPN HS being shut down and high school sports coverage being picked up by USA Today I am wondering what happened to Mr. Basketball USA. USAT published its first preseason All-USA Today team this year, but I am not sure if they are going to do bi-weekly polling like ESPN HS did. Also, since USAT already had a player of the year, what will happen to this award?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

FIBA

I was approached by a representative of FIBA, who observed that coverage of FIBA related articles could use some improvement. The individual was looking fro feedback on how best to accomplish this, noting that the organization itself had limited resources for this type of activity. Of course, I reminded the person of COI, so direct involvement in editing would be problematic (although contributing to talk pages is encouraged.)

Obviously, there is nothing preventing an editor from working on FIBA articles, and we do have some active contributors in that area. I'd like to see if we could organize our efforts a bit.

I've been very active in basketball related articles for years, although not so active in this Wikiproject as a project, so I recognize the potential issues with joining a group, and immediately taking charge of any aspect of the mandate. My hope is to work with others in the Wikiproject, and either provide a coordinating role, or help someone else if they want to take on that role.

My current plan is to start by making an inventory of FIBA related articles, then create a table with a draft assessment of needs, and see if some editors would be willing to take on some of the more obvious assignments. This list would include existing articles, as well as missing articles. I would start with a draft on this page, or a sandbox, depending on size, then plan to add to the main page, or a subpage, as the community feels appropriate.

If anyone has a better approach, I'm open to anything that would help our coverage. I don't have much experience with basketball related articles outside of the US, but I've wanted to remedy that deficiency, so I'm looking forward to this as an opportunity to broaden my horizons. Those with more knowledge of FIBA, feel free to correct me if my deficiencies are too glaring.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:27, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Did they have any specific requests for improvement? What articles would they consider within their scope? As a general comment, I know that the language issue can be a barrier to quality content on non-US basketball. Zagalejo^^^ 00:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

They provided a list, which I will post here soon. I agree with the language comment, and unfortunately, cannot contribute much there. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 01:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Specifically identified articles of interest:

• FIBA
• 3x3 (basketball)
• 2014_FIBA_Basketball_World_Cup
• 2019_FIBA_Basketball_World_Cup
• FIBA_Basketball_World_Cup
• FIBA_Hall_of_Fame
• Rules_of_basketball
• Official (basketball)
• FIBA World Club Championship
• FIBA World Championship for Women
• Naismith Trophy
• Variations_of_basketball#Different_roster_sizes
• Yvan Mainini
• Patrick Baumann (FIBA)

RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople

An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:47, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

John Shurna playing abroad

Can someone help me source the latest career moves of John Shurna. He appears to be playing for someone based on this story. The language might be French.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:03, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

He plays (or recently played) in France for SIG Strasbourg. Most of the information about that is in French. This announces the signing, and seems to say that the deal only ran until December 28, but I'm not 100% sure if I'm interpreting that correctly. Zagalejo^^^ 01:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think your link says his deal was extended, but I'm just using Google translate, so don't take my word for it. Zagalejo^^^ 02:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Shurna was just extended with Strasbourg. Originally his contract was to be end 12/28, but he was extended until the Leader's Cup because the player he replaced due to injury won't be back soon. This interview with SIG's coach explains it (in French). Rikster2 (talk) 02:28, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't figure out when he signed. The earliest web page I can find is this one from December 2. Can someone add the content regarding his contract extension due to the continued unavailability of another person.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Tony - I will add it when I get a chance - maybe tonight. Rikster2 (talk)

Templates for stats?

I see the CBB templates for schedules, and for rosters, but none for individual stats or team stats. Are there such templates? --SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

For NBA, there is Template:NBA roster statistics start and Template:NBA player statistics start.—Bagumba (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:14, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Picture series in articles

I am experimenting with new photography equipment. I went to the 2012–13 Big Ten Conference men's basketball season opener to see my 2012–13 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team. I have been adding picture series to articles like layup, foul (basketball), alley oop (basketball) and give-and-go. I don't feel an article like alley oop can be credibly depicted with a single photo. I will add a few more from this event to articles like personal foul (basketball) and fast break. Unless we get videos, I think picture series are the way to go. Do people agree? If people like these I will try to do a better job with my photography and illustrate many more basketball articles with series from games.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:42, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I would think an alley-oop (as well as some others) would be bettered explained with a video. Have you rejected that?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I have not been shooting video. I am just saying that for alley oop, a picture series is better than a single image, IMO. All of these would be better with video. My question is whether the aggregate size of a picture series is worth it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I messed up the money shot on that alley oop a little bit because when Burke let go of the ball, I thought it got poked out of his hand or something. The focusing was slightly different from (worse than) the other shots in the series. I was fortunate to redepress the shutter button in time to get the shot.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

It can work with the right photos. Edgar_Martínez#Legacy shows baseball player Martinez swinging a bat. I reduced the number of photos in layup and foul (basketball), as it was too overwhelming to the article layout. The pics would be better if they were cropped, as it is quite small to look at without clicking them. For alley oop (basketball) , it fails to illustrate the point without seeing the scorer going up to receive the pass before getting ball. For give-and-go, vertical placement doesn't work, plus I can't discern who gave up the ball and got it back. I would remove from these last two articles.—Bagumba (talk) 21:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you having trouble seeing the basketball in the hands of the player with the 1 on his jersey to begin and end the play give-and-go. I have tried to revise the WP:CAPTION in that one. I am sure if I go to another game or two, I can get a better depiction of an alley oop (basketball). However, I think what we have there now is better than before. I think Give-and-go is better than nothing. Do you disagree with this?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:13, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

For give-and-go, I dont see #1 giving it to 23 in the beginning as the caption says. The next pic show 23 with the ball, but no idea how he got it. I have deleted for this case, as the pictures IMO aren't illustrating much beyond the description. For alley-oop, I think this is better than nothing, but ideally would be able to see scorer as passer releases the ball.—Bagumba (talk) 23:39, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I got your talk page message. I am new to photography. I bought my first DSLR in June. This was my second sporting event (I experimented with a local high school game). Welsh-Ryan Arena has no definitive policy regarding what can come in. It is up to the discretion of the checkers. I guess I was lucky. However, due to my inexperience, I spent most of the day on the wrong end of my Canon EF 70-300mm lens. I don't think I have anything but free throws at over 150mm. I should have been zooming a bit more. If you look at many of the uncropped images, you will see the back of the head in front of me. WRT, the give-and-go, I intend to replace it in the future because the traditional give and go has the pass receiver and giver stationary. Also, as you say it is better to see the give pass. I still think what I added was better than nothing. We essentially have a give and go with one picture missing. However, most basketball articles don't even have picture series. Yes the perfect give and go would show the both passes, the second catch and the shot. I have 3 of those 4. In terms of the perfect Alley oop, I only shoot at 5 fps so I might have missed the tossing action. In addition, this one was not the underhand pass that you really want to see. This was like a fake shot. In fact, I was sort of faked out as the photographer and let go of the shutter release for about a half a second. I hope to do better on my next visit, but I did get 4 dunks and 2 alley oop tip ins. I think for a first time attempt this was O.K. I ended up with 1416 images so I probably have more useful ones if I look through them. Do you think I should have shot in landscape from my seat?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

IMO, the pictures for give-and-go, since they were to illustrate a point as opposed to being decorative, are better off deleted. Someone else can feel free to revert by bold delete if they think the good outweighs the confusion. As for photography, I'm amateur at best. If you're talking about the auto "landscape" setting, lighting might be an issue depending on your lens. A "Sport" setting would result in faster shots.—Bagumba (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I am hoping my next game will be the January 26 showdown between Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor. However, the arena was changed and I am not even sure if it has been announced, yet. I will try to get some more photos from that event.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I have recropped and re-WP:CAPTIONed give-and-go. I think the current version is better than an unillustrated one. I will replace this give and go with a better example in the future. For now, I think the images are O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I also just did shot clock. I cut 7 consecutive frames down to 3 for expedience.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

• Bagumba, Maybe I should move the current Give-and-go images to fast break and look for a better give and go series. What do you think?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Sure. It looks like a 3-on-2 break. Maybe the backcourt picture isnt needed.—Bagumba (talk) 22:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Greg Somogyi notability

Hello!

The Greg Somogyi article was recently PRODed, and since I'm not familiar with the basketball notability guidelines, I would like to ask your help if he's notable enough before expanding the article. In short, he played between 2008 and 2012 in the NCAA, was not drafted but went to the LA Lakers summer camp before eventually ended up in the Spanish second division. He also has been seleceted on U18 and U20 level for the Hungarian national team, however, did not make any full international appearance yet. For me it appears to be that he isn't notable enough yet, however, would like to get some expert opinion. Thanks, Thehoboclown (talk) 18:40, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Can he pass WP:GNG? --LauraHale (talk) 19:18, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think he is notable - I can't see where he is playing anywhere. His college career was definitely not notable in my opinion. The article was created when he was in the Los Angeles Lakers' training camp. Had he made that roster he'd be notable - but he didn't. If he were at least playing in the D-League he might be getting some press, but I can't find anything on him since his release. I'd just let the PROD go through and if he later becomes notable it would be easy enough to recreate. Rikster2 (talk) 20:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd say he's marginally notable. He at least deserves a full AFD. The fact that he was considered for a Lakers roster spot suggests that people would want some information about him. He is indeed in the Spanish LEB league; there's a Spanish article here: [1]. A decent amount of info is also available in the Google News archives: [2] Zagalejo^^^ 00:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

If he looks like he passes WP:GNG but not the basketball specific ones and I was interested in keeping the article, I'd update the article to establish WP:GNG and remove the PROD. Then if some one wants to take it to WP:AFD, they can. I wouldn't remove the PROD though unless I was pretty certain WP:GNG would be met. --LauraHale (talk) 09:04, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be a bit of Hungarian coverage of his career - search "Somogyi Gergely" (the Hungarian order of his name). It may be worth getting someone who understands Hungarian to have a look. Hack (talk) 09:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Overforking of articles

I have been spending a lot of time reorganizing {{Basketball}}. I have noticed a lot of questionable articles along the way. I have opened three merger discussions regarding merging Chase-down block into Block (basketball), Baseline dunk into Slam dunk and Fly fast break into Fast break.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Shot clock

Did I overdo the WP:CAPTION at Shot clock? Comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball#Shot_clock.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Olympics tag

Do we put {{WikiProject Olympics}} on pages that have {{WikiProject Basketball}} when it is applicable?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

If a player or coach was in the Olympic Games I don't see why not. The two projects have different scopes. One is looking after basketball and the other is looking after the multisport event. Rikster2 (talk) 01:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Bracketology and March Madness pools

I am a casual fan who watched March Madness last year and even filled out a bracket. Nevertheless, I am confused. Could someone explain the difference between Bracketology and March Madness pools? Are they completely separate topics or should they be merged? Also, the Bracketology section of the main article (NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship#Bracketology) (NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship#Bracketology and pools) seems to be closer to March Madness pools than to Bracketology. How should the two articles and that section be linked together? Thanks. --Jameboy (talk) 13:27, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Bracketology is an ex ante (selection and play) prediction of who will be in the field. March Madness pools are ex post in the sense that they are predictions of who will win once the field is chosen (although they are ex ante in terms of play.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

That makes sense. I've linked the section to both articles. I'll look for a reference so that we can add something about the distinction that you have described. --Jameboy (talk) 15:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Phasing out the NBL player infobox

I have put this out there a couple of times both here and at WP:NBA and several active Australian editors - I think it is time to phase out Template:Infobox NBL player and move those articles to Template:Infobox basketball biography to get consistency between world leagues. I am starting to convert some players and directing anyone who'd like to discuss further to come here and do so. The way players move across leagues I think this method makes the most sense and is consistent with the consolidation of a number of pro basketball infoboxes that occurred awhile back. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

FYI, Infobox basketball biography has been updated to display the team colors (or "colours" if you prefer) for all active NBL teams - a very nice enhancement I believe (thanks to User:Frietjes). Conversions have bedun, please feel free to help if you can. Rikster2 (talk) 16:49, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Rob Sawicki for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Rob Sawicki is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rob Sawicki until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Rikster2 (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Propose eliminating the "country" after team names in Infobox: Basketball Biography

Hello- We have somewhat inconsistently applied country or league (in the case of minor leagues like the D-League or CBA) after each club in the club history section of the infobox. At first these were linked to the actual country name, but that was later changed to the league displaying as the country name. But with most European leagues using a relegation system, linking the leagues brought many errors - people linking the French Pro A when the team split time between Pro A and Pro B during the players' tenure for example. When the league model is followed to the letter, you get infoboxes like Oscar Schmidt, where he played three seasons with the same club but it displays as theree entries because of relegation/promotion moves. I say we just show the club and try to ensure countries and leagues are spelled out in the prose. What do others think? Hoping we can get a consensus because right now it is inconsistent as all get out. Rikster2 (talk) 16:59, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

For American readers, I believe the country in the infobox is useful to track at a glance which country an American player that went overseas is playing. I'm pretty sure most Americans wouldn't know or care about the specific names of the leagues, and the concept of tiers would be completely foreign to most. Not to say this needs to be American-centric per se, but we currently dont bother putting anything next to NBA teams, and we put "D-League", "ABA", etc for non-NBA leagues instead of "United States". Perhaps the first topic we should resolve is whether all basketball bios should be presented American-centric, or should we customize it based on the nationality of the player, or some other criteria?—Bagumba (talk) 20:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I would say it definitely shouldn't be American-centric. The box is used for leagues all over the world and the NBA has a world following. I don't think the country/league from the infobox is a huge loss, but if nothing else it seems like we should just leave countries unlinked. I don't think the box should be customized to the Nationality of the player at all, because citizenship is already a bit of a third rail topic for some regions. Also, I am flat out just a consistency advocate. Rikster2 (talk) 20:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

In lieu of any discussion on this, I am going to leave the parathetical statements but start de-linking them from a particular league and colsolidating club history entries like thse found on Oscar Schmidt (linked above). Seems like the least disruptive course of action. Rikster2 (talk) 14:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable since a lot of these teams play in multiple leagues in the same year.—Bagumba (talk) 17:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

NBASKETBALL guideline discussion

You are invited to join a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Similar_leagues_text_in_NBASKETBALL regarding leagues whose players are presumed notable.—Bagumba (talk) 21:30, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

There is also a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Notable_international_basketball_competitions about which international competitions are presumably notable.—Bagumba (talk) 23:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

6team bracket?

I see a few templates for tournaments, such as Template:6TeamBracket-with class. I want to build a bracket for the 2004 Paradise Jam, which was a six team round robin, leading to seeds, leading to Championship game, third place and 5th place games.

I'm not sure it even makes sense to have a bracket with a round robin, but I thought I'd check in case anyone has thoughts on how to portray it.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

College baseball uses round robin formats for some tournaments (ACC, Conference USA, and Sun Belt in particular. You may be able to adapt this to fit your needs: Template:8TeamRR-2Group-with-finals. It's pretty self explanatory, but check 2012 Atlantic Coast Conference Baseball Tournament to see how it's used. Billcasey905 (talk) 03:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:14, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Ideal team

FYI

There is a new article, Ideal team, that deals with virtual teams of top players like the All-Euroleague Team. You are invited to discuss at Talk:Ideal team how best to handle this.—Bagumba (talk) 02:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

New Category - is this a precedent we want?

Just saw where Category:Basketball players from Portland, Oregon was created, which is a sub category of Category:Basketball players from Oregon, which is a sub category of Category:American basketball players. It is also a sub category of Category:Sportspeople from Portland, Oregon and was created along with several other sport categories. My question is if it is wise to categorize to this degree. I think the parent category "American basketball players" is already overapplied as non-US editors aren't aware of the state sub category system and I fear that now we'll start seeing three levels of categories applied (and misapplied). I kind of think 50 sub categories of "American basketball players" is enough. Thoughts? Should the Category be discussed more broadly as there are pretty big implications to this standard if you play it out to its logical end point. Rikster2 (talk) 19:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, Rikster, I'm of two minds on this topic. First, this is consistent with the standard category practice for American baseball and football players. Second, I am also a little weary of overly detailed categorization generally. I suppose that I accept this practice because I perceive that it's probably inevitable. In all events, care should be taken to remove the redundant parent categories (e.g., "sportspeople from x" and "basketball players from state x") from articles when the more specific "basketball players from city x" categories are added. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment - Actually, DL, based on a cursory look at the baseball, basketball and American football by state categories, this is the first instance of categories for those players being brought down to the city level - so it isn't standard category practice, it is in effect establishing a new category structure system (or the beginnings of one). Rikster2 (talk) 20:07, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I stand corrected, Rikster. I am obviously confusing Category:People from Portland, Oregon, Category:Sportspeople from Portland, Oregon, and Category:Basketball players from Oregon. The only real merit I see in this subcategory Category:Basketball players from Portland, Oregon is that it would eliminate the need for two parent categories of the new sub. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Totally against this new subcategorizing. That is going overboard. Breaking it down by state is enough; after all there are 50 of those to begin with, and two players who both happen to be from a particular city is not special enough to have its own category. Not every category needs a subcategory, and the lowest level any of these players should be in is a state level.

Also note that Category:Players of American football from Portland, Oregon and Category:Baseball players from Portland, Oregon should be considered in this same vein. The creator of all three of these categories (User:Peteforsyth) is an Oregon homer. Nothing against his lovely home state, but it's this sort of tedious over-categorization that makes Wikipedia more difficult for the average user than it needs to be. I propose we take all three of these categories to a CfR and have them upmerged back to the state level. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

After further review, I acknowledge the error of my ways, and endorse Jrcla's resolution of this issue. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

In the big picture, this not a basketball-specific issue, but a general, "Do we create categories for <specific occupation> in <city, state>?" In this case, Category:Basketball players from Oregon and Category:Sportspeople from Portland, Oregon already exist. The guideline Wikipedia:Overcategorization#Intersection_by_location seems the most relevant, and "does not have any relevant bearing on the subjects' other characteristics" seems to apply. The only question would be if "location may be used as a way to split a large category into subcategories" applies to breaking up Category:Sportspeople from Portland, Oregon.—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

—Note: Notification of this discussion was left at Wikipedia_talk:Overcategorization#Category_for_basketball_players_from_Portland.2C_Oregon.—Bagumba (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

If this ever gets to WP:CFD, ping me. I'd like to voice my opposition to this category.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

CfM nomination

• Found here. Thanks. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Portal:Sports is up for featured portal consideration

This is a courtesy message to inform the members of this project that I have nominated Portal:Sports for featured portal status. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Sports. The featured portal criteria are at Wikipedia:Featured portal criteria. Please feel free to weigh in. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Video possibilities

I was at the Illinois High School Association (IHSA) playoffs yesterday. I shot some videos. Tonight is the rematch of Jabari Parker and 3-time defending IHSA state champion Simeon Career Academy vs. Jahlil Okafor and reigning Chicago Public High School League city champion Whitney M. Young Magnet High School. I want to know if video like I took last night are worth taking. Last time they played, I took video at 640px and it was useless by the time I converted it to .ogv. Last night I took 1280 and 1920 video. See small samples at User:TonyTheTiger/sandbox2. Since I am shooting video and leave my camera unmanned, I am still experimenting. I could of course, try focussing on one half court instead if this video is useless. Can anyone give my opinions on the prospects of using this type of video at either 1280 or 1920 or trying a higher zoom camera angle on WP.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:38, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

navboxes

Pls see Wikipedia talk:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#Need many more templates on pages.Moxy (talk) 17:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:35 Greatest McDonald’s All Americans

Template:35 Greatest McDonald’s All Americans has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to move WNBA infobox template to Basketball biography infobox

I was editing a couple of WNBA player articles this morning and saw that there is a separate infobox for the WNBA (Template:Infobox WNBA biography), distinct from Template:Infobox basketball biography, which is now used for all men's leagues (Australia and the Philippines integrated in the last year). I propose that the WNBA infobox be merged with the others as the basketball biography box is sufficiently flexible (team colors would need to be added) and there is no substantial difference in the info presented in either. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 13:06, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Some differences I notice in WNBA's include

1. "Allocated" field
2. Separate fields for WNBA career and Non-WNBA career
3. Separate field for head and assistant coach
4. Separate field for WNBA and non-WNDA teams
5. Separate fields for coaching stats

Did you have in mind normalizing WNBA to existing Infobox basketball biography with no changes to template (aside from team-specific coloring) or to merge WNBA fields in?—Bagumba (talk) 06:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I would support normalizing the WNBA box. Outside of the "allocated" field (which I'm not sure the use of) I don't see a big issue making it work. One issue with WNBA players is that the WNBA season is "off cycle" from traditional basketball season, so many players compete in two leagues in the same year. This could get confusing with the current infobox. Rikster2 (talk) 10:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

No issue from me if normalizing. Perhaps you could make a request at WP:BOTREQ to do the conversion, and the template can eventually be deleted at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 06:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Ditto. No problems, so long as two leagues at the same time works. --LauraHale (talk) 07:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of Category:National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame inductees

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball § Deletion of Category:National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame inductees

 – Consolidate discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 16:34, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

A recent category for discussion resulted in, IMO, the surprising deletion of Category:National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame inductees. The cfd was not brought to the attention of Talk:National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame, Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball, Wikipedia:WikiProject College Basketball, nor even Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports. I personally believe the cfd was not properly announced, per cfd instructions to place "a notice on the talk page of the most-closely related article" nor relevant Wikiprojects. Further I disagree with the interpretation of consensus and to reasoning to close the discussion by User:BrownHairedGirl. Any interest in bringing this to Wikipedia:Deletion review? CrazyPaco (talk) 15:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

WNBA

We are revamping our article "importance" ratings at WP:NBA, and the question came up as to which project oversees the WNBA? I honestly dont recall seeing any discussion at WP:NBA regarding WNBA, so perhaps WNBA supporters are here? Of note, there are WNBA articles in Category:Top-importance NBA articles and there is Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/WNBA task force (which doesnt seem active).—Bagumba (talk) 02:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Interesting question. The WNBA (like the D-League) is an NBA product. But there is very little fan overlap between the two leagues - meaning the same editors probably aren't working the articles of the two leagues. I would think there would be more editor overlap with women's college basketball. Rikster2 (talk) 12:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball/Women's basketball has been created. I haven't yet added it to the Wikiproject pages, but will do that, however, I wanted to share that it exists, and is a natural place for WNBA editors.SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

IRC

In case you're interested, there's now an IRC channel for collaboration between editors in sports WikiProjects. It's located at #wikipedia-en-sports ^connect. Cheers, TCN7JM 03:22, 6 May 2013 (UTC).

Billy Reid - pro career help

Does anyone have access to a Eurobasket account, or any other resource that can fill out Billy Reid (basketball)'s professional playing career article? I pieced together what I could based off the Southern Miss and Rhode Island coach bios, but it's an incomplete overview of his playing career.

Also, I can't find anything on his coaching career more recent than the 2006–07 season, so if you have any info on that, too, it'd be appreciated. Jrcla2 (talk) 12:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a Eurobasket account, so I can't help with all of that, but I see that Reid left Southern Miss in 2009; [3] Zagalejo^^^ 23:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that. Jrcla2 (talk) 14:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

File:Banknote with Loul Deng.jpg

File:Banknote with Loul Deng.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 06:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

team photos

Several team photos are up for deletion, see Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2013_May_22 -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 06:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Template request for NBA Draft Combine

I forgot to make sure that no one knows about the template I am requesting. Comment at Wikipedia:Help_desk#Template_request_for_NBA_Draft_Combine if I should not be making this request.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 10:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for coaches' infoboxes

For basketball coaches' infoboxes I propose it be standard that current NBA coaches have their current teams listed in their infoboxes so that it triggers the team colors displayed, as I've done for the articles about Mark Jackson, Erik Spoelstra, Bob McAdoo, and David Fizdale. Arbor to SJ (talk) 01:17, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

If the jersey numbers are removed, it looks OK. But with the jersey numbers, it ends up looking weird. In the past, there had been some discussion about moving the jersey numbers to a different part of the infobox, but we never really moved forward. Zagalejo^^^ 05:30, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe that infoboxes should reflect the current position of the basketball person. If the person is active in basketball including being a coach or admin then the infobox should reflect so. Omit jersey numbers accordingly. Once the ex-player is inactive in coaching/admin then the jersey #'s can be replaced. To go on a tangent I wonder if the infobox should also include administrative positions. For instance, Larry Bird served in the front office of the Indiana Pacers after his stint as coach. Arbor to SJ (talk) 17:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I can go for coaches (would prefer just head coaches, but not hard over on it), but please no front office jobs. Being a GM sounds fine, but what about a scout? This stuff scope creeps like you wouldn't believe. The other issue (though one I'm sure we could figure out a locution for) is the position a coach played when they were active - now the infobox or Jackson doesn't note he was a PG, which I think is a bit of a disservice or the reader. I've seen a couple Euro articles where people have tried Head coach<br/>Point guard (as player) but that doesn't look right either. Rikster2 (talk) 19:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Enhancements to current infobox

I believe what is needed are enhancements to {{Infobox basketball biography}}. Some changes that are needed seem to be:

1. Jersey number should not be as prominent when person is no longer a player (e.g. becomes a coach/exec). There should be an option to list it somewhere else.
2. Non-current jersey numbers should be listed somewhere (e.g. player changes number over career)
3. People are involved with many leagues in their career. It should not be listed with "Career information". The league of the current team, if important, should be listed on top next to the current team.
4. Current position should be listed separately from former position e.g. player becomes coach, coach becomes exec, etc.

—Bagumba (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

please also include increasing the number of clubs that can be displayed in an infobox. Some players exceed the 25 club max and the work around a being used look lousy. Rikster2 (talk) 22:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I can take a hack at the >25 if I get a chance. Alternatively, User:Frietjes is usually pretty responsive on template changes (and more proficient than me w/ templates).—Bagumba (talk) 23:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with all the enhancements. For players becoming coaches though, the basketball position should be listed separately.—Chris!_c/t 22:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Please provide feedback on the following mockups for Kobe Bryant and Jeff Hornacek. The left is the original, the right is with changes to address points above.—Bagumba (talk) 06:31, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The top part of the second Hornacek box says "Player information". Is there a way to change that to "Coach information" (or something similar) for coaches? Also, the infobox has both "Pro career" and "Coaching career" fields. He would still be a professional as a coach. Could "Pro career" be changed to "Pro playing career" (or something similar)? Zagalejo^^^ 23:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I actually like the jersey number placement in Kobe #1 for active players. Any chance that there could be a way to flag players as "active" (or conversely "retired") and have the number show up in a different place for retired players vs. active ones? Rikster2 (talk) 01:26, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the reason I changed it was to incorporate the person's current league, which used to be incorrectly listed under "Career information". Otherwise, I dont know how/where to place the current league, unless we just want to remove it altogther (which I wouldn't mind).—Bagumba (talk) 01:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

@Zagalejo: I'd suggest calling it "Team information" for both players and coaches, and stay away from specific customization. However, we may not even need it if the decision is to remove the "league" parameter (see my comment immediately above at 01:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)) Renaming "Pro career" to "Pro playing career" can be done too. I guess "Playing career" would include college and HS, while "Pro coaching career" would exclude any college coaching stints. I can produce a new prototype for viewing once the "league" issue is finalized.—Bagumba (talk) 06:22, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

"Team information" would be good. Zagalejo^^^ 16:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I think "League" should be removed. Career history already shows which team a player is playing for.—Chris!_c/t 20:14, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be initial agreement to have a place to put a player's position and number when they become a coach. I've added params career_number and career_position. No changes to the top format, and "league" still remains until there is a clear consensus. See Jeff Hornacek for a working example of the changes.—Bagumba (talk) 22:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for working on this. We've needed some of these changes for a while. Zagalejo^^^ 23:44, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, one thing I noticed. The "Pro playing career" designation seems to be triggered by the use of "coach_start". However, many articles don't use "coach_start", and if we start to use it, we may run into complications. Articles are not consistent in terms of what coaching positions are included in the infoboxes. Some just list head coaching positions, while others try to list all coaching positions. Zagalejo^^^ 00:12, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

It was a conscious decision. If a player did coach and "coach_start" wasn't set, then the display is still the same as it was before. Nothing has gotten worse (or better). I worried that some existing bios may have combined player and coaching years into "career_start" and "career_end", in which case the generic "Pro career" should continue. "Pro playing career" is only assumed if the editor explicitly specifies "coach_start". If a person only played and never coached, "Pro career" anyways is still an accurate description.—Bagumba (talk) 03:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen an article that combined the playing and coaching careers between "career_start" and "career_end". (Of course, there are lots of articles I've never seen, or haven't looked at lately.) I would advise anyone who wants to start using "coach_start" to do a bit of research to make sure the start date is correct, since some articles currently omit assistant coaching positions (and/or non-NBA coaching positions) from the infobox. Zagalejo^^^ 04:23, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I usually hate to change the meaning of existing fields, as sometime people might have gotten creative e.g use them for executive career. You're right though, I doubt this happens often. It's more likely a player/coach has "Pro career" ambiguosly listing only their playing career. On second thought, unconditionally changing to "Pro playing career" is likely to help more articles than the few it may actually hurt. I'll make the change.—Bagumba (talk) 06:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Alright. I do think I have a pretty good idea what people are doing in NBA bios, and I've only seen the pro career section used for playing years. I can't make any guarantees about non-NBA bios, but we'll deal with that if we see it. Zagalejo^^^ 06:30, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll look into some of these cases when I get a chance. For example, I know that Tom Thibodeau had worked as a college coach before going into the NBA, though those years had never been added to the infobox. Zagalejo^^^ 04:43, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I originally figured that "coach_start" added was consistent (for better or for worse) with the teams already listed in the infobox in a given article, but I now see your point that they were inconsistent between articles with whether assistant and non-NBA stints were listed.—Bagumba (talk) 06:29, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Infobox mockups

Kobe Bryant

No. 24 – Los Angeles Lakers
Position	Shooting guard
Personal information
Born	(1978-08-23) August 23, 1978 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Nationality	American
Listed height	6 ft 6 in (1.98 m)
Listed weight	205 lb (93 kg)
Career information
High school	Lower Merion (Ardmore, Pennsylvania)
NBA draft	1996: 1st round, 13th overall pick
Selected by the Charlotte Hornets
Playing career	1996–present
Career history
1996–present	Los Angeles Lakers
Career highlights and awards
5× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2009–2010) 2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010) NBA Most Valuable Player (2008) 15× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2013) 4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011) 2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007) 11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013) 2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001) 2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005) 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011) 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002, 2012) NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997) NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997) Los Angeles Lakers all-time leading scorer Naismith Prep Player of the Year (1996)
Stats at Basketball Reference
Medals Men's basketball Representing the United States Olympic Games 2008 Beijing Men's basketball 2012 London Men's basketball FIBA Americas Championship 2007 Las Vegas Men's basketball

Kobe Bryant

Player information
No.	24
Team	Los Angeles Lakers
League	NBA
Position	Shooting guard
Personal information
Born	(1978-08-23) August 23, 1978 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Nationality	American
Listed height	6 ft 6 in (1.98 m)
Listed weight	205 lb (93 kg)
Career information
High school	Lower Merion (Ardmore, Pennsylvania)
NBA Draft	1996 / Round: 1 / Pick: 13th overall
Selected by the Charlotte Hornets
Pro career	1996–present
No.	8, 24
Career history
1996–present	Los Angeles Lakers
Career highlights and awards
5× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2009–2010) 2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010) NBA Most Valuable Player (2008) 15× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2013) 4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011) 2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007) 11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013) 2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001) 2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005) 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011) 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002, 2012) NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997) NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997) Los Angeles Lakers all-time leading scorer Naismith Prep Player of the Year (1996)
Stats at NBA.com
Stats at Basketball-Reference.com
Medals Men's basketball Representing the United States Olympic Games 2008 Beijing Men's basketball 2012 London Men's basketball FIBA Americas Championship 2007 Las Vegas Men's basketball

Jeff Hornacek

Personal information
Born	(1963-05-03) May 3, 1963 Elmhurst, Illinois
Nationality	American
Listed height	6 ft 4 in (1.93 m)
Listed weight	190 lb (86 kg)
Career information
High school	Lyons Township (La Grange, Illinois)
College	Iowa State (1982–1986)
NBA draft	1986: 2nd round, 46th overall pick
Selected by the Phoenix Suns
Playing career	1986–2000
Position	Shooting guard
Number	14
Coaching career	2011–present
Career history
As player:
1986–1992	Phoenix Suns
1992–1994	Philadelphia 76ers
1994–2000	Utah Jazz
As coach:
2011–2013	Utah Jazz (assistant)
2013–present	Phoenix Suns
Career highlights and awards
NBA All-Star (1991) 2× NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (1998, 2000) No. 14 Retired by the Utah Jazz
Career NBA statistics
Points	15,659 (14.5 ppg)
Steals	1,536 (1.4 spg)
3P%	.403
Stats at Basketball Reference

Jeff Hornacek

Player information
Team	Phoenix Suns
League	NBA
Position	Head coach
Personal information
Born	(1963-05-03) May 3, 1963 Elmhurst, Illinois
Nationality	American
Listed height	6 ft 4 in (1.93 m)
Listed weight	190 lb (86 kg)
Career information
High school	Lyons Township (La Grange, Illinois)
College	Iowa State (1982–1986)
NBA Draft	1986 / Round: 2 / Pick: 46th overall
Selected by the Phoenix Suns
Pro career	1986–2000
Position	Shooting guard
No.	14
Coaching career	2011–present
Career history
As player:
1986–1992	Phoenix Suns
1992–1994	Philadelphia 76ers
1994–2000	Utah Jazz
As coach:
2011–2013	Utah Jazz (assistant)
2013–present	Phoenix Suns
Career highlights and awards
NBA All-Star (1991) 2× NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (1998, 2000) No. 14 Retired by the Utah Jazz
Career NBA statistics
Points	15,659 (14.5 ppg)
Steals	1,536 (1.4 spg)
3P%	.403
Stats at Basketball-Reference.com

Nationality2 field hey, since we are making all these enhancements can we correct a display issue with use of the "nationality" and "nationality2" fields as well? Right now if you use both fields it displays as "American /Italian" instead of "American / Italian" - can we adjust the default spacing on both ends? Either that or disable "nationality2" altogether and let people manually enter the slash and spacing (as with the position field)? Rikster2 (talk) 23:59, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Didn't even know it existed, its not documented, and there is the funky underscore before "2". Articles like Hakeem Olajuwon just format everything into "nationality". At any rate, I added the space. Since it's not documented, I imagine there are few new uses of it.—Bagumba (talk) 00:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Side effect

Possible unintended consequence of new infobox - I have noticed that the spacing on a number of infoboxes has changed. In many cases high schools which formally could include HS and city on one line stretches to two (even some pretty short ones), and also college name plus college years are stretching to a second line as well. Anyone know what is causing this and if it can be avoided? Bo Lamar is a college example, while I just inserted a hard break for Caldwell Jones' high school to get around it. The boxes looked cleaner when this stuff would fit on one line. Rikster2 (talk) 20:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's what appears to have happened: The infobox has a predefined width. When we changed "Pro career" to "Pro playing career", it widened the left column that has the row's label, and left a little less room for the right column which has the data. Although "Pro playing career" was wrapped, the first part of "Pro playing" took up more space than "Pro career" from before. To address this, I tweaked the infobox to be a little bit wider, which allows "Pro playing career" to be unwrapped and seems to make the right column the same width as before (or at least Caldwell Jones is back to being unwrapped). In general, for something like high school that usually has the name of the HS as well as its location, we are better off having a new field like high_school_location, that is always put on a newline, instead of forcing editors to know when a break should be encoded.—Bagumba (talk) 21:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

In theory I like the HS location field, but in practice probably 65-70 percent of the high school info fits on one line. This comes in handy when a player went to three schools (increasingly common) Rikster2 (talk) 22:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I've thought about multiple HS and even colleges before; in reality, we probably only care about the last one they attended/graduated. The rest could be left for prose, but I'm sure someone would add the other schools no matter what guidelines we start.—Bagumba (talk) 22:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

totally (vehemently) disagree on colleges. I could go for that with HS though. There are many editors who disagree though (I know because they vote with their keyboards) Rikster2 (talk) 22:24, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if it wasnt clear, but I didn't have any intention of pushing a "guideline" that editors (right or wrong) were not going to follow, or we couldnt enforce in the code e.g. I'm sure lots of editors would add stats to the infobox for non-retired players if the template allowed it.—Bagumba (talk) 23:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

"league" parameter

The matter of the "league" parameter above has been brought up before e.g. Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball/Archive3#.22league.22_field_in_infobox.2C_revisited. The issue is that "league" is listed under "Career information", but the field is typically only filled with the person's current league. Adding all the leagues of some players' careers would be too unwieldy.

The options moving forward seem to be.

1. Remove the "league" field.
2. Move the "league" field together with the person's current team, position, and number.
3. Leave "league" as is, with only the current league under "Career information".

Examples of each option are below based on Malcolm Thomas (basketball, born 1988). Please indicate your preference in the survey below. Feel free to introduce additional options.—Bagumba (talk) 07:33, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Survey

#1 Remove league

1. Second choice would be to move league.—Bagumba (talk) 07:33, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

#2b Move league, keep old No. <#> – <Team> style header

1. This looks perfect.—Chris!_c/t 23:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Works for me. Zagalejo^^^ 02:13, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

IMO, what would be ideal is something halfway between Option 1 and Option 2. IE, leave the "No. 3 – Chicago Bulls" against the red background, and list the League and Position underneath that. Zagalejo^^^ 20:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Is new option 2b what you had in mind, or did you not want the league/position labels?—Bagumba (talk) 22:18, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

That's what I was looking for. Thanks. Zagalejo^^^ 02:13, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

League set, but no team

Preparing for the likelihood that we will go with option 2b, it seems there are almost 200 articles that currently set "league" but not "team". This seems mostly to include retired players. What should we do with these?

1. Do not display "league" if there is no "team"
2. Edit and remove "league" from these articles. However, "league" is also used in a retired player's stats section, so the existing parameter "stats_league" would need to be set instead.
3. Both 1 and 2.

—Bagumba (talk) 06:13, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. Many of those articles (especially the non-NBA/ABA players) are not going to have any stats in their infoboxes, so removing "league" would not do anything. If we remove "league" from the others, the stats line is going to say "Career statistics", without any qualifications. Generally, that's not going to be a big deal, but we could run into problems for guys who have played in multiple leagues, because the stats in the infobox may not reflect their whole career. I already fixed a lot of those pages when "stats_league" was first rolled out, but I don't know if I got them all, and some articles created since then would still require attention.

I would like to get away from the practice of listing leagues with retired players. I would support option 1, and option 2 when necessary to avoid errors. Is there a way to whittle down the list to remove players who don't have infobox stats sections? Zagalejo^^^ 17:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree it would be best to reserve the league field for active players. It is misused a lot (eg - "NBA" when a player actually competed in 3-4 different leagues in their career) Rikster2 (talk) 19:51, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the current "league" was overloaded to both list league under "career information" and to list the league for the career stats section.—Bagumba (talk) 07:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Note that currently, if neither "league" nor "stats_league" is set, "Career NBA statistics" is displayed, not "Career statistics"—Bagumba (talk) 07:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. I previewed what would happen if I removed those things at Artis Gilmore, and I just see "Career statistics". Zagalejo^^^ 01:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. The code specifies a default for "league" as NBA, then goes and ignores it for "Career statistics" section.—Bagumba (talk) 01:56, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Option 1 could be easily implemented without option 2. If league/stats league was incorrectly set before, it's a separate issue from the changes discussed here. If we do option 1, and we just wanted to rename encoded "league" settings for retired players to "stats_league" for consistency, that could be done after option 1 at our leisure. I can look into adding another test to track which bios don't list a team, but set league, and also display stats.—Bagumba (talk) 07:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

@Zagalejo: As requested, Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox_basketball_biography/league_set_without_team_with_stats can be checked to see which articles set league, do not set team, and set stats. Note that Wikipedia takes a while to update templates in articles, so it will take a while to get a complete list. As a point of reference, Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox_basketball_biography/league_set_without_team now shows 500+ articles when it was <200 a few days ago.—Bagumba (talk) 06:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for doing that. Zagalejo^^^ 16:28, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I've made the changes for option 2b which move the league to the top, but only displaying it if there is a team set. See Malcolm_Thomas_(basketball,_born_1988) as one example. Removing "league" from articles where there is no team, and renaming it to "stats_league" where applicable can be done if anyone chooses.—Bagumba (talk) 07:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Option 1

Malcolm Thomas

No. 3 – Chicago Bulls
Forward
Personal information
Born	(1988-11-08) November 8, 1988 Columbia, Missouri
Nationality	American
Listed height	6 ft 9 in (2.06 m)
Listed weight	225 lb (102 kg)
Career information
High school	Crawford (San Diego, California)
College	Pepperdine (2007–2008) San Diego City College (2008–2009) San Diego State (2009–2011)
NBA Draft	2011 / Undrafted
Pro playing career	2011–present
Career history
2011	Mobis Phoebus (South Korea)
2011–2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders (D-League)
2012	San Antonio Spurs
2012	→Austin Toros (D-League)
2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2012	Rio Grande Valley Vipers (D-League)
2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2012–2013	Maccabi Tel Aviv (Israel)
2013	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2013	Golden State Warriors
2013	→Santa Cruz Warriors (D-League)
2013–present	Chicago Bulls
Career highlights and awards
2× All-MWC Second Team (2010–2011) All-MWC defensive team (2011)
Stats at NBA.com

Option 2a

Malcolm Thomas

Team information
No.	3
Team	Chicago Bulls
League	NBA
Position	Forward
Personal information
Born	(1988-11-08) November 8, 1988 Columbia, Missouri
Nationality	American
Listed height	6 ft 9 in (2.06 m)
Listed weight	225 lb (102 kg)
Career information
High school	Crawford (San Diego, California)
College	Pepperdine (2007–2008) San Diego City College (2008–2009) San Diego State (2009–2011)
NBA Draft	2011 / Undrafted
Pro playing career	2011–present
Career history
2011	Mobis Phoebus (South Korea)
2011–2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders (D-League)
2012	San Antonio Spurs
2012	→Austin Toros (D-League)
2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2012	Rio Grande Valley Vipers (D-League)
2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2012–2013	Maccabi Tel Aviv (Israel)
2013	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2013	Golden State Warriors
2013	→Santa Cruz Warriors (D-League)
2013–present	Chicago Bulls
Career highlights and awards
2× All-MWC Second Team (2010–2011) All-MWC defensive team (2011)
Stats at NBA.com

Option 2b

Malcolm Thomas

No. 3 – Chicago Bulls
League	NBA
Position	Forward
Personal information
Born	(1988-11-08) November 8, 1988 Columbia, Missouri
Nationality	American
Listed height	6 ft 9 in (2.06 m)
Listed weight	225 lb (102 kg)
Career information
High school	Crawford (San Diego, California)
College	Pepperdine (2007–2008) San Diego City College (2008–2009) San Diego State (2009–2011)
NBA Draft	2011 / Undrafted
Pro playing career	2011–present
Career history
2011	Mobis Phoebus (South Korea)
2011–2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders (D-League)
2012	San Antonio Spurs
2012	→Austin Toros (D-League)
2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2012	Rio Grande Valley Vipers (D-League)
2012	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2012–2013	Maccabi Tel Aviv (Israel)
2013	Los Angeles D-Fenders
2013	Golden State Warriors
2013	→Santa Cruz Warriors (D-League)
2013–present	Chicago Bulls
Career highlights and awards
2× All-MWC Second Team (2010–2011) All-MWC defensive team (2011)
Stats at NBA.com

Option 3

Malcolm Thomas No. 3 – Chicago Bulls Position Forward League NBA Personal information Born (1988-11-08) November 8, 1988 Columbia, Missouri Nationality American Listed height 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) Listed weight 225 lb (102 kg) Career information High school Crawford (San Diego, California) College Pepperdine (2007–2008) San Diego City College (2008–2009) San Diego State (2009–2011) NBA draft 2011: undrafted Playing career 2011–present Career history 2011 Mobis Phoebus (South Korea) 2011–2012 Los Angeles D-Fenders (D-League) 2012 San Antonio Spurs 2012 →Austin Toros (D-League) 2012 Los Angeles D-Fenders 2012 Rio Grande Valley Vipers (D-League) 2012 Los Angeles D-Fenders 2012–2013 Maccabi Tel Aviv (Israel) 2013 Los Angeles D-Fenders 2013 Golden State Warriors 2013 →Santa Cruz Warriors (D-League) 2013–present Chicago Bulls Career highlights and awards 2× All-MWC Second Team (2010–2011) All-MWC defensive team (2011)

Alerts bot

I realise the project has this tool but an additional tool is Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball/Article alerts‎, when activated Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Article alerts‎, and watchlisted, it picks up significant AfDs, RMs etc. Some users may find it useful.

Also see Talk:Manu Ginóbili. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:54, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

General manager's infobox

Larry Bird's case was mentioned before at #Proposal for coaches' infoboxes. Should we add fields to add the career history i.e. teams/years for a general manager and other executives, like we do for playing and coaching stints?—Bagumba (talk) 01:51, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, no. Where is the line for front office positions? Do advance scouts who were former players have that displayed in their infobox? For coaching, you still have people involved in the gameday Ws/Ls. That isn't always true of front office. GM seems OK but you and I both know it wouldn't stop there. Rikster2 (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd draw the line at executives ie VPs, GMs, and directors. Sure some people might add cruft, but the community can develop guidelines and police itself. The downside without the executive history is not being able to see at a glance how long Mitch Kupchak has been a GM, or not even realizing the Chris Mullin was once a VP. Sure there are negatives as you stated, but IMO the benefits outweigh them.—Bagumba (talk) 06:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, register my disagreement. Titles are inconsistent and in some cases overly long, I am just not sure this stuff lends itself to the infobox format. Not everything needs to be in the infobox and all this would be in the prose anyway. And while the community can police what I think would be a pretty predictable descent into scout entires and VP of Community Relations entries, why add yet another thing to police? At some point the standards become overly complex and difficult for your average user to navigate. Rikster2 (talk) 11:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Rikster raises an important point about job titles. Teams will organize their front office personnel in different ways, and it's not always clear who does what based on job titles alone. Finding dates for some of these positions will be difficult. Basketball-reference attempts to list all the GMs, but their data lends itself to misinterpretations. For example, John Paxson is listed as a Bulls executive from April 14, 2003 to May 21, 2009. It's true that he was succeeded as GM by Gar Forman in 2009, but Paxison is still a Bulls executive - the executive VP of basketball operations. Zagalejo^^^ 00:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps there is no single source that has an executive's complete history, but neither is there a complete source for players' or coaches' history outside of the NBA, but we still include what we find that is verifiable. Most Wikipedia articles are not complete, so it seems to be a slippery slope to argue for no mention of executive history in the infobox because complete executive history is not readily available for most articles. As for Paxson, this source says he's been VP of basketball operations since 2003. As with any sources that conflict, we decide which one is more reliable, or we decide to mention all sides, or none at all. This is not unique for execs. Looking at in another way: we get sources that conflict on whether a player is a PG vs SG, or combo guard, or point forward, etc. However, we wouldn't argue to remove the field because it's sometimes unverifiable, or people put non-conventional name is the field, or sources conflict. An exec's career history really shouldn't be treated any differently. There should be no deadline on when the history is complete, and verifiable information should be added as it is found. It's inconsistent that Joe Dumars has exec awards in his infobox, but no mention of his exec tenure.—Bagumba (talk) 06:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There is not a compelling reason why front office positions HAVE to be in the infobox. It's adding a third element to a packed box and philosohically in my eyes an executive - even a GM - isn't actually a "part of the team" any more than an Athletic Director is of a college basketball team. I'd like to hear more opinions. I understand Bagumba's and Zags' (and my own). Rikster2 (talk) 11:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

In the case of Paxson, it's possible that "general manager" was never his official title, although he acted in that capacity. I agree that there are plenty of complications with playing and coaching careers, and that an "executive" section of the infobox would not be fundamentally different than the fields we have now. However, I'm just a little uncomfortable adding even more content of this nature. The pool of active basketball editors is getting smaller, and there's already so much content to try to maintain. Zagalejo^^^ 18:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

And the active pool that participate in discussions is even smaller :-) Since I'm not going to be updating a whole slew of GM articles, I don't have a big stake in this. I will say that I would consider this a must if anyone wanted to take Jerry West or someone similar to FA, as his GM tenure is arguably as notable as his playing career.—Bagumba (talk) 22:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

A "must" for executive info to be in an infobox for an article to be FA? Methinks you are over-applying your personal preferences here. But whatever. Rikster2 (talk) 00:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

West's GM career is quite a different story from uneventful stints like Magic being VP, or Jordan as GM/owner. At any rate, this ain't going anywhere without more input, so we can park it for now.—Bagumba (talk) 01:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Any evidence existed?

Nikola Perisic, BLP with no evidence of existence. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I would AfD it. Even if he does exist I see nothing in the article that indicates he would meet GNG. Rikster2 (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)