Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Archive 43

Archive 40

Archive 41

Archive 42

Archive 43

Infobox Template

I came across the infobox topic via RfC a few weeks ago. Since that time I've learned there are a lot of strong opinions about them. I understand this was a very contentious topic a decade ago. Now that infoboxes have been around so long it appears that many of these RfCs are going to end in infoboxes being added on articles since so many editors find them valuable. The problem with that is the very real issue of scope creep. Other projects have controlled this by agreeing to an infobox template. This helps control what's included in the infobox. I don't pretend to be an expert on what's important to a composer's infobox bio, but I would highly recommend that this project take an infobox template under consideration. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 14:16, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed 1,000%. People expect Wikipedia articles on people to have an infobox to easily glean e.g. age, place of birth, etc. Not having them for composers because of a discussion twelve years ago is the worst sort of precedent. Brad (talk) 22:07, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Not really sure what you'e talking about. {{Infobox classical composer}} has existed for 20 years and evidently not lessened any disputes. Aza24 (talk) 23:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

RfC: Alkan/Masarnau

Editors' comments are requested here on a matter of appropriateness of quotation/citation. Smerus (talk) 09:52, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

RfC Schubert/Unsinnsgesellschaft

Editors are invited to comment here on an asserted link of Schubert with the 'Unsinngesellschaft' society . Smerus (talk) 10:00, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Charles Turner

Draft:Charles Turner (American composer) was tagged as unreferenced, then as unnotable. I've satisfied my own curiousity about the dedicatee of Barber's Souvenirs and Auden's Ballad of Barnaby and hope someone else might want to rescue this article. Sparafucil (talk) 03:47, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Listing of Wagner at WP:Redirects for discussion

Comments invited.--Smerus (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:45, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Overhaul of list of Schumann's works

I have left a comment on the talk page with suggestions. Would be interested to hear thoughts. SaryaniPaschtorr (talk) 18:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Music editor

Surprisingly, we didn't have an article on the occupation of music editor and this was a redirect to music sequencer. I just knocked off a quick article. If anyone cares to expand, have at it.4meter4 (talk) 18:08, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Good thinking! I've just tweaked it a bit and linked it in some articles. Aza24 (talk) 19:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Corelli move discussion

Project members may be interested in this move discussion. – Aza24 (talk) 18:31, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

RFC: Infobox discussion

Some of composers have an infobox by using {{Infobox person}} or {{Infobox classical composer}} from previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC. Following these multiple consensuses via RfC who has or don't have an infobox:

• Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 6#Infobox
• Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach/Archive 10#Infobox proposal
• Talk:Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky/Archive 5#RFC regarding the addition of an infobox
• Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 16#Mozart Infobox RFC
• Talk:Richard Wagner#Wagner infobox rfc
• Talk:Dmitri Shostakovich#RfC: Infobox

2001:4451:8282:7C00:E4DA:4FE7:6253:3DD2 (talk) 11:08, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

What's the purpose of this RfC? What infobox template to use? Nemov (talk) 13:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria removed the tag for the RFC as not valid. I rolled that back, can the IP user who started this RFC explain the purpose of this RFC? If not, they should withdraw this, or if they're unresponsive it would be fine to remove the tag. Nemov (talk) 01:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The tag shouldn't be restored unless and until the RfC is valid. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:12, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

You should have posed a question here or attempted to reach the IP editor before doing something like that. Nemov (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

No, the IP should have come up with a valid RfC. Without that, the tag is unhelpful. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:16, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jessie Baetz

Comments would be appreciated. All opinions welcome.4meter4 (talk) 15:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rostom Aramovic Alagian

This composer needs sourcing to prove notability. The unsourced article makes some encyclopedic claims and could potentially be worth saving if sources can be located.4meter4 (talk) 19:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

All I found is two recordings, on Discogs and elsewhere. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Nationality of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart at AfD

The article Nationality of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nationality of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Katherine Hoover

Please review Katherine Hoover article's assessment and advise improvements. This Edit required to make a positive request. AjAirFlex (talk) 04:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Request for input

There is a current discussion over the appropriateness of a particular quote about Samuel Barber at Talk:Samuel Barber#Most celebrated composer?. The quote in question was written by Donal Henahan in The New York Times. This is the quote and source: "Probably no other American composer has ever enjoyed such early, such persistent and such long-lasting acclaim." Donal Henahan (January 24, 1981). "Samuel Barber, Composer, Dead: Twice Winner of Pulitzer Prize". The New York Times. The quote was removed from the lead of the article here: [1] Please comment at the discussion at: Talk:Samuel Barber#Most celebrated composer?. All opinions are welcome.4meter4 (talk) 20:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Johann Christian Bach

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Johann_Christian_Bach#Infobox_proposal, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. Cremastra (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Guto Puw

Guto Puw has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (chat!) 07:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Anton Webern

I made a small change to Anton Webern a while ago and have it on my watchlist. I have since watched a single editor do major work on that page and you may want to look at it to reassess it. Looks quite good to me! --John (User:Jwy/talk) 21:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Montensem has indeed been doing great work on the article. It is currently rated "B"; any higher rating (GA or FA) and it would have to be entered into WP:GAN or WP:FAC and go through the process at either venue. Aza24 (talk) 23:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Tim Simonec

FYI. I just created this article (Tim Simonec). It could use some work. --David Tornheim (talk) 22:14, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Sir Arnold Bax

Now that his copyrights have expired, are there any free-licence recordings of his music which we can upload to the Commons? His category is empty so far. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 13:31, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Only for works recorded by artists who have been dead for 70 years. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:01, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Instrumental digital recording of This Is My Father's World

Recently I made a digital recording of this hymn, and considered trying that with some of Bax's work (having found the sheet music on archive.org) but the length and notational complexity were rather too great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robin S. Taylor (talk • contribs) 06:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Help requested

I would be happy to have help with:

• Draft:T. Mayo Geary
• Draft:Jack Mills (music publisher) FloridaArmy (talk) 21:49, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@FloridaArmy, what are you looking for help with? Really, you need 2–3 more secondary reliable sources for each person, because you need to establish WP:Notability. These sources should (ideally) be thing which are focused on the subject.

For Jack Mills, something like this NYT obit, to 1–2 others. You may want to look for encyclopedia entries focused on the people, or search their names on Google Books. Aza24 (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

User:Aza24 that's what I need help with, sources like those. FloridaArmy (talk) 23:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Try checking some sources in the Irving Mills article. There's also this. You might also add this IMSLP link to the external links section

For T. Mayo Geary its looking a bit trickier; I'm not seeing so many sources available online. Aza24 (talk) 06:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Help Request

Looking for someone to review this page and publish changes. Draft:Rhyuhn Green Composer232 (talk) 22:51, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi there @Composer232:, I'm not formally reviewing the page, but here are some tips:

• In general, this article will probably not be accepted in its current state. You need to establish WP:NOTABILITY, with 2–3 reliable secondary sources with in-depth coverage on the subject. Passing mentions (articles where he is not the main focus), will not suffice.

Other than this, here are some formatting tips:

• The article should be generally chronological; education section before music
  • Something like "Carnegie Hall debut in Weill Recital Hall at age 12" should be earlier in the text.
• Birth years/dates need sources, if you don't have a source for it, don't include it
• BroadwayWorld.com and Instagram are not reliable sources (see WP:RS) and should be removed or switched out
• References always come after punctuation, and there are never spaces before references, only after.
• All of these awards don't really belong in the WP:LEAD, put them in there own section. The lead is to summarize information below—it is not where we include new information.
• You never need 6 sources for a single line, really anything more than 2–3 is pushing it.

Aza24 (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Camara Kambon draft - open for feedback

Hi there, this article about an American film composer and songwriter is waiting review since a couple of months back. It has been marked with GA status. Please advice if there is anything that needs improvement, or if I should just be patient and wait.

Draft:Camara Kambon AnamSoul (talk) 16:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Dmitri Shostakovich has an RfC

Dmitri Shostakovich has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Infoboxes

I notice a great many composers now have infoboxes. I think this is a good thing as long as the composer infobox is used:

Joe Blogs
Joe Blogs in 1981
Born	(1944-04-12)April 12, 1944 Inverness, Scotland
Died	January 1, 2004(2004-01-01) (aged 59) Elgin, Scotland
Occupation(s)	Composer, Double Bassist, Professor of music
Works	Works
Relatives	Jane Doe
Signature

.

This avoids the situation in Schostakovich where the box became too big. Have the composer's group now accepted the need for a simple infobox with consensus on the talk page? I have proposed infoboxes for Kenneth Leighton and Sofia Gubaidulina and may propose more as I find them missing. Please comment on the talk pages. I'll let you know as I propose them and will keep you updated. — Iadmc♫^talk  09:02, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

One important composer where an infobox is being proposed is Haydn... Perhaps that debate should be resolved first? — Iadmc♫^talk  09:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I have also suggested we have a debate at Mahler — Iadmc♫^talk  20:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I've added infoboxes to Kenneth Leighton and Sofia Gubaidulina per WP:BRD — Iadmc♫^talk  00:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello-o-o-o-o

Am I talking to an empty room? It is a shame if the group is dead. — Iadmc♫^talk  07:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

An non-member's observation: You wrote above ....Haydn. Perhaps that debate should be resolved first? - 4 June (sorry, late sig) - Davidships (talk) 10:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello anonymous! We can multitask here at Wikipedia! Seriously, though, this infobox thing is a minefield. Would you like to help?— Iadmc♫^talk  14:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Iadmc, I don't know what you expect people to do. Some of the articles you're proposing IBs be added to are in an abysmal state. Time would be much better spent adding content to them. In some ways, IB are purely decorative, and don't actually improve the article's content.

In any case (since you will just ignore the above), WikiProject Classical music is typically more active. Aza24 (talk) 03:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aza24: I intend to work on the articles Kenneth Leighton and Sofia Gubaidulina. The boxes are just a preliminary step. I don't really expect people to do anything but constructive comments are always helpful! Surprisingly, Haydn needs some work, too; surprisingly, considering the quality of the editors in the old Haydn and Mozart taskforce. I'm not all just about infoboxes, it's just that I think they are going to be placed in all person articles eventually: might as well get it "right" now with a box people can accept. Finally, this project used to be buzzing. It's a shame to see it die. I'll pop over to WP:CM and see what is happening there. Thanks for the comments — Iadmc♫^talk  04:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, welcome back to the site! The Haydn and Mozart task force is long gone, and our standards for composer articles have increased immensely. Thus, some major composers such as Haydn, Mozart, Vivaldi, Puccini, Bartok and to some extent Beethoven have very poor articles, in comparison to the FA/GAs we now have.

You'll be happy to hear that WP:CM is fairly active, but I wouldn't think of the Composers project as dead by any means. Most people at CM are working on composer articles, that's just where they happen to meet now. I don't know when you were last particularly active, but WikiProjects have heavily decreased in importance. Only a handful—Military, video games, hurricanes, paleontology, come to mind—are especially active. Aza24 (talk) 04:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! As long as collaboration is still key, projects are not really important except as places to make announcements. They became talking/bashing shops really with acrimonious arguments flying round. Good riddence! Also, they were cliques where an opinion was pushed on people: e.g. "infoboxes are evil". Perhaps WP has matured somewhat since then; I hope so! Anyway, I look forward to working with you — Iadmc♫^talk  05:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the infoboxes debate is still going on—see for example this recent RfC. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, that debate will never die. Some are completely enamoured of them, others despise them with a passion. I only include them where there is consensus—or else no opposition—and an image with some useful info in the caption. I do use WP:BRD to add them where it seems unlikely there will be no opposition; otherwise, I ask. — Iadmc♫^talk  13:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 hello, btw! — Iadmc♫^talk  13:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Could someone help out with the Brahms page?

Even after I fixed many of the phrases and made them less argumentative, there's more that needs to be rephrased (especially under the Reception section), as well as citations (especially in the introduction and Music section). I can't do all this by myself, so could somebody lend out a helping hand? Thanks. Wikieditor662 (talk) 01:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Request for Feedback on Draft:Shuying Li

Hello! I have been working on a draft article for composer Shuying Li and would greatly appreciate any feedback or contributions from fellow editors. Here is the link to the draft: [Draft:Shuying Li](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Shuying_Li). Thank you in advance for your help! LuminousPathGlimmer (talk) 19:28, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Raising Beethoven's article raiting

The article seems to be good enough to be a good article, or even a featured article, however this requires a process which has to involve someone who contributed enough to the article (which isn't me), meaning I can't request a nomination for this. However, we can together decide whether to make this an A - class (which hopefully will make it easier to get a higher rating in the future). Can we get a consensus that this article should be raised from B class to A class? Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

It would need a completely new music and legacy section—which sounds far away from good or featured status. Same with Brahms, which you seem to have been eyeing recently. I understand article ratings can be exciting (as is improving Wikipedia!), but you need to take a closer look at the articles you have in mind.

Notice how the FA Maurice Ravel discusses each of the composers major genres one by one in the music section; and see how Josquin has an extensive section for his legacy. Both the Beethoven and Brahms articles would need music and legacy sections of similar scope/size. Aza24 (talk) 17:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Deciding on the leading image/portrait of Richard Strauss

We're trying to decide which is the best one to use. If you want to join the discussion, please see the talk page and look for the category named "Swapping his main portrait". Thank you. Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Helping out with Beethoven's legacy section

Thank you @Aza24 for pointing this out. If I have time I'll work on it myself, and anyone who wants to help out with it to make it more like Josquin des Prez's legacy section to is more than welcome to. Thank you. Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: I started to work on the legacy section at User:Wikieditor662/Beethoven sandbox. Any help or advice on how I could improve the article or what I should add is greatly appreciated. Wikieditor662 (talk) 15:04, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Lisa Hannigan

Lisa Hannigan has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 14:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion at Talk:Giacomo Benvenuti (composer)

Editors may wish to comment at this discussion. All opinions welcome.4meter4 (talk) 15:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Giacomo Benvenuti (composer)#Requested move 6 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Giacomo Benvenuti (composer)#Requested move 6 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans 02:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Kim Woo-jin#Requested move 13 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Kim Woo-jin#Requested move 13 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 ^{[𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺]} 07:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Assessing the prominence of a work of classical music

Here is an afterthought I had, inspired by Agrestis's proposal.

I've contributed to articles about very famous works (Haydn's Creation) and rather obscure ones (Beim Auszug in das Feld). It often feels appropriate to clue the reader into how much the work is central to the body of Western classical music; something like "X is frequently performed and recorded." It's interesting to ponder how such claims can be given legitimate reference sources. Opera articles sometime use Operabase. What else might help? Presto? Page count in books of recommended recordings? Has this been discussed before (hints welcome)? Opus33 (talk) 18:18, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course there's a bunch of pieces that get recorded frequently but not performed live, and (especially for more modern works) also happens somewhat the opposite. So just looking at recording numbers isn't great. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

It is not very reliable historically (this cannot be overemphasized) and is extremely culturally, politically, and socially relative. This is a bigger problem than it may seem.

There may be reliable sources for making such a claim in the literature, and then it would likely be somewhat defensible. But claims are just claims; they should be contextualized and preferably (where possible) much substantiated.

General regard is probably already evident enough to the reader in the sheer bulk and tone of literature that has accumulated around some music. The small problem is that general regard is probably not so measurable or reliably quantifiable. MONTENSEM (talk) 06:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the "medium problem", which is not a problem at all, is the sheer diversity of means by which importance may be inferred and its variance assessed. MONTENSEM (talk) 06:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)