Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Handball/Archive 2021

Merge of WC field and indoor

@Dancilaisfunny, Hyperion82, Zackmann08, Kante4, Almagestas, Disnihapoel, and Dellux mkd:

Hey Handball friends. I pinged you because User:Dancilaisfunny implemented the article World Cup Field Handball into IHF World Men's Handball Championship and IHF World Women's Handball Championship.

I think you did this under good faith, but first of all Dancilaisfunny please ask first at this or the article page if the merge is ok.

In my view this move was not useful. Because this two events were two separate events. The IHF listed them under indoor and outdoor World Championships (Link & Link2). All other languages have also the separation between indoor and outdoor.

You wrote as reason "It was moved and the IHF does not use the word FIELD". So we can debate the name of the article for example World Men's Outdoor Handball Championship.

In my opinion the outdoor handball should be removed from the indoor pages and there should be two article about the outdoor events with the names World Men's Outdoor Handball Championship and World Women's Outdoor Handball Championship. What are your opinions?--Malo95 (talk) 15:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Kb03 and Onel5969: I saw you two did both a revert at World Cup Field Handball. Please read my explanation above. I think there should be a separate article about field handball. Also impotent to mention is that User:Dancilaisfunny is blocked. And nobody call it Handball elevens and sevens how he wrote.--Malo95 (talk) 16:15, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Malo95, I reverted him because he was a blocked sock, nothing more. I have no opinion about the content dispute. Kb03 (talk) 17:41, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

And I reverted simply because it was a cut and paste edit, which isn't allowed. I also have no opinion regarding the naming dispute, other than that if consensus is that the name should be changed, then the article should be moved. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 02:35, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I deleted the content at the indoor pages and created: IHF World Men's Outdoor Handball Championship & IHF World Women's Outdoor Handball Championship. I hope under this new titles everybody is satisfied.--Malo95 (talk) 17:25, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@74Account: You reverted my edits at IHF World Men's Handball Championship and IHF World Women's Handball Championship please read my comment above. If you are disagree please let it discuss, else let my deleted the field handball content at the indoor articles.--Malo95 (talk) 17:32, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

If an opinion is still useful, I agree with you Malo95: I think we can consider that Field (outdoor) Handball and 7-player (indoor) Handball are two different sports directed by the same governing body, the International Handball Federation. Consequently, both articles IHF World Men's Outdoor Handball Championship & IHF World Women's Outdoor Handball Championship looks perfect to me. --LeFnake (talk) 16:25, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

West Germany in statistics

I saw that @Hyperion82: separate West Germany and Germany in some statistics. And other reverted this.

I think we should discuss this topic in general.

Points for separation:

• Medal table from the IHF from 2005
• The book: 50 Jahre IHF, 50 Years IHF, 50 ans IHF
• At the 2021WC profile of Germany they made the separation like the Russian page

Points against separation:

• At the 2021WC profile of Germany, Russia, Serbia and Czech Republic, West Germany, USSR, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia resp. are included in the history of the teams. In the opposite, Croatia and (North) Macedonia start in the 90s and don't have yugoslav record.
• The programs of the field WC's they count the old WC of Germany to West Germany
• In Germany they never separate West Germany and Germany in statistics only East Germany.

In my view we should separate West Germany and Germany, because most of the statistics of the IHF also do this. What are your thought @Kante4 and LeFnake:? --Malo95 (talk) 08:49, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello to everyone. I can to add information about Field Handball World Championships. IHF separates results of Germany and West Germany as it's possible to see at Page 17 - https://archive.ihf.info/upload/statistics/MWC_Stats.pdf . But in early 1950s, East Germany was not yet recognized as IHF's member. So, at the 1952 and 1955 World Championships German team de-facto consisted of West German players only. At 1959 World Championships participated unified Germany team consisted of players from West and East Germany. And at the next World Championships (1963 and 1966) there were two separate teams - West Germany and East Germany. --Hyperion82 (talk) 11:16, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree that IHF point of view is not very clear on this topic although it's a very important one.

First, follwong Hyperion82 post, GDR has been recoginzed in 1956 (see Fascinations for thousands of years - Handball p. 36) but in 1958 and 1961, Germany still played with an unified team. GDR first appearance was in 1964.

Apart from this, in my point of view, I think that we should not consider Germany case only, but also USSR/Russia, Yugoslavia/Serbia and Czecoslovakia/Czech Republic which are similar cases (except that the former countries have divided but not unified)

considering the 2021 WC profiles of teams, IHF considers that Germany inherits West Germany, Russia USSR, Serbia Yugoslavia/Serbia-Montenegro and Czech Republic Czechoslovakia. In official website of 2017 WC (but I'm not sure that it can be considered as a reliable source), Facts and figures says that Germany (and Sweden) missed the final tournament just twice (1990, 1997) and History says Germany holds the record number of matches played at the World Championship (158 matches).

So, in my opinion, we should not separate West Germany and Germany. --LeFnake (talk) 16:08, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

But also special is that at the Germany page of the 2021WC they also count East Germany. This would mean that Germany has "two places" at the old WCs. I think the most important document are the medal tables which separate West Germany and Germany.--Malo95 (talk) 16:35, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, IHF is not very reliable, just look at both archive and new website or how IHF world player of the year is handled... In my opinion, unless one can show a convincing argumentent/source, I think we should leave it at "In Germany they never separate West Germany and Germany in statistics only East Germany.".--LeFnake (talk) 14:02, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Germany and West Germany were never seperated, just East Germany. So the statistics should be comined. Kante4 (talk) 14:07, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

This is totally incorrect. After WWII, German was de-facto separated into two different countries - West Germany and East Germany. And this statistics is not exactly about countries, it's about national teams who were even more different. Even IOC separates medals earned by athletes from West Germany and unified German team - https://www.olympic.org/federal-republic-of-germany-1950-1990-ger-since . So does IHF - https://archive.ihf.info/upload/PDF-Download/WomenWorldCh/medaltable.pdf . So does other international sport federation - like FIL/Internatanional Luge Federation (https://www.fil-luge.org/cdn/uploads/medaillenspiegel-wm-kb.pdf ). I understand position of Germans in this matter (as many Germans who grew up either in West or in East Germany feel connection with these non-existed national teams), but I sure that position of major international sport organization should have priority in this issue than position of national federations. For example, in Russia often combines Soviet and Russian medals while mentioning about historical results because many Russians who were born in Soviet Union doesn't think that Soviet team was something totally different for them. But IHF clearly states in their OFFICAIL BULLETEN: "Those countries which, for political reasons, no longer exist in this form today, such as the URS, FRG, GDR and TCH, are no longer taken into consideration in the All-Time Best Rankings. As precisely these federations determined events in world handball for decades too, however, they are listed separately in the following table". For now, I don't see any other IHF's source with other position in this issue. Yes, they mentioned about achievements of West and East German teams at the page about Germany national team but this special asterix (*) speaking that these former teams were different.

Nomination of Oxford University Handball Club for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Oxford University Handball Club is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oxford University Handball Club until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

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Hello. @Dancilaisfunny, Hyperion82, Zackmann08, Kante4, Almagestas, Disnihapoel, Dellux mkd, and LeFnake:

Th Article Oxford University Handball Club is for deletion. They argue that they are a university club and not notable. I think they are notable because they played twice in the EHF Challenge Cup. User:Xaverius and I found two articles where the club is presented and some more with mentions only.

Could you please write your opinion at the Afd and maybe you will discover more sources.

Could you please add Wikipedia:WikiProject Handball/Article alerts to your watch lists and could you please be more active at this discussions. Because at Afd normaly there are US and UK residents how doesn't now a lot of handball and they always say that this article is not notable.

Thank you for your help. Malo95 (talk) 06:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

What I'd say is that we need to change the notability criteria for handball.--Xaverius 11:29, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Number of team rosters in handball at 2020 Summer Olympics

Hi. Please see and join the following discussion related to handball at the 2020 Summer Olympics:

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics#Number of team rosters in several sports at 2020 Summer Olympics

Thanks. --Phikia (talk) 13:02, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

List of handballers with 1000 or more international goals

I copied following coversation between @Speun and Kante4: from Kante4s talk page:

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Hello Kante! It's a joy to see someone so active on handball articles, as they need as much attention as other sports. I was just wondering what you think of a List of footballers with 500 or more goals but for handball players with national team goals instead?? Something along the lines of List of handballers with 1000 or more international goals. Other sports got soooo many similar lists, so it doesn't seem like a problem, right? Of course it's not up to me to decide what the cut off should be, but a lot of players scored 500 goals for their national team, so that doesn't seem too special, but only a few, like 15 or so? scored 1000 or more for their national team. It would also be a complete list without missing players, as handball players didn't play that many national team matches pre 1990. Is that something you could create in the future? Speun (talk) 10:00, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

@Speun: Hmm, interesting idea. Not sure if it's "needed" or notable enough but i would say yes. Maybe raise it at Wikipedia:WikiProject Handball? Kante4 (talk) 20:48, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

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In the german Wikipedia we have the page de:Liste der Handballspieler mit mindestens 200 Länderspielen. (Players with 200 games) We run in to problems that the sources have sometimes conflicting numbers. In August and September we had a discussion at de:Portal Diskussion:Handball/Archiv#Länderspielstatistik von ägyptischen Spielern about this. An other user told basically only Spain, Norway and Denmark have reliable databases. I know that Switzerland has also a good database. For example the Egyptians have following problem: Karim Handawy should have played 31 games between 15 January 2021 pre WC 2021 (132 games) and 23 July 2021 pre OG 2021 (163 games). He played 7 games at the WC 2021, this would mean he played 24 games more. I think this not possible. Other players have a similar difference. Completly wrong are the numbers of Ahmed El-Ahmar. pre WC 19 705 games. Two years later pre WC 21 315 games and pre OG 2021 322 games. 🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 06:58, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I totally agree with you Malo95, the main issue will be to find accurate sources about this...

Nowadays, about good databases, there is also Hungary (men and women) and Sweden (men and women)--LeFnake (talk) 08:57, 25 November 2021 (UTC)