Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Archive 2022

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Archive 2022

Trying to add the correct blazon to a coat of arms

Could anyone kindly provide the correct blazon for this coat of arms? (1), (2). Ficaia (talk) 14:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Check rainbow flag for rainbows, flags, and sources

• Rainbow flag

At Talk:Rainbow_flag#Propose_to_delete_items_on_list I challenge some of the long standing content in the article, arguing that some of it has no rainbow, is not a flag, or lacks sources.

Comments requested please.

Bluerasberry (talk) 00:15, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

New Wikiproject mascot proposition

I have noticed that many Wikiprojects have their own versions of Wikipedia:Wikipe-tan as a mascot, so I thought it would be nice if this project had one as well. As such, I made File:Wikipe-tan heraldry.svg, and was wondering if people here would like to adopt it as an official logo/mascot for the project. I hope to see what members think, happy new year! Di (they-them) (talk) 03:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

• Two things: 1) it should have a flag flying in the background, since this is "WikiProject Heraldry AND Vexillology" and 2) the Chinese character is backwards. So either the image or just the character need to be mirrored. VanIsaac, MPLL ^cont_WpWS 04:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vanisaac: This Wikiproject doesn't have a flag like it has a coat of arms so I'm not sure if it makes sense to just put a random flag, plus there is a flag on the shield itself. I will fix the character though.

I have created an updated version with a banner as well: File:Wikipe-tan heraldry and vexillology.svg. Is this one suitable? Di (they-them) (talk) 21:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I like this version of Wikipe-tan. The flag on the shield can easily be overlooked, especially in smaller sizes, so the flag behind her really pushes home the vexillology. Kudos! — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 17:26, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

So since I've added what was requested, what do people think of adopting it officially? How might we go about getting that done? Di (they-them) (talk) 02:07, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Di (they-them): ❌ Wikipe-tan with no flag; ✅💙 Wikipe-tan with flag! I support you finding a place on the main page and inserting the picture. Just post back after you do. Bluerasberry (talk) 00:20, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• @Bluerasberry: I have added her, thank you! Di (they-them) (talk) 00:41, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

The size and placement is great! She looks great there! Bluerasberry (talk) 01:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Austria-Hungary § Infobox flag compromise

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Austria-Hungary § Infobox flag compromise. — Goszei (talk) 05:46, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Images of Australian Aboriginal Flag at FFD

I listed local copies of the Australian Aboriginal Flag images at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. --George Ho (talk) 10:15, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

House of Commons

Draft:Armorial of the speakers of the Irish House of Commons needs some help. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

British Royal Houses

Help appreciated at Draft:Armorial of the House of Windsor, Draft:Armorial of the House of Hanover and Draft:Armorial of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Russian flag violates the principles of vexillology ?

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/16/a-new-symbol-of-russia-s-anti-war-movement

According to Western symbology expert Michel Pastoureau, when it comes to flags, there are two types of colors. Group one includes gold, yellow, silver, and white, while group two includes colors like red, blue, black, and green. On a well-designed flag, no two colors from the same group should touch; they should be separated by a color from the other group. (In Russia's flag, the blue and red stripes touch.) --Espoo (talk) 13:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

This is based on the heraldic rule of tincture. More precisely stated, the "rule" is that a charge of colour shouldn't be on a field (background) of colour, and a charge of metal shouldn't be on a field of metal. For example a blue star on a red background violates the "rule". But when a field or charge is geometrically divided between tinctures, they merely touch and are not one on top of another, so the "rule" is not violated. Indefatigable (talk) 16:46, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

FAR for National emblem of Belarus

I have nominated National emblem of Belarus for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 17:31, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Request - flag of Michigan

Since the list of tasks has barely been updated since 2016 I thought I'd put this here where more people participate: Please help improve the vector version of the Flag of Michigan (see talk) by combining the clarity of the existing version with the details of the machine-vectorized version. (compare with raster version.) HueSurname (talk) 05:39, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Flags of counties of the United States

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Flags of counties of the United States (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs|google) AfD discussion

There are sources, as my beginning improvements to the Michigan section suggests. This is part of a larger effort to denude flag articles around the world. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flag lists that should have been on Commons 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:37, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Help needed - Flag and coat of arms of the Pitcairn Islands

I recently expanded the article on the flag and coat of arms of the Pitcairn Islands; any additional help would be appreciated, especially in finding any sources that I've missed and assessing the changes I've made - ATeaAddict (talk) 08:38, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

A.C. Monza shield shape

Hi, does anyone happen to know if the shield used in A.C. Monza's badge (see image) has a particular name? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:10, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Anyone? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

NZ governors-general armorial

Hi, I have just created the page Armorial of the Governors-General of New Zealand.

If anyone has anything they can contribute to the page, particularly missing/incomplete blazons or providing citations (I have pulled many of the blazons from other wiki pages, but they often weren't cited there either), that would be great!

I decided it wasn't worth including the Governors prior to the switch to Governors-general as I could only find coats of arms for a couple of them.

I will just note that I have purposefully not used the image of the coat of arms used on Sir Charles Fergusson's page, as it doesn't match the depiction of his achievements shown here which instead appears to be the same as that of his son Sir Bernard Fergusson minus the "bordure Argent".

Cheers!--Radicuil (talk) 11:56, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Unofficial and incorrect flags - UK cities and towns - clean-up request?

Went to check the UK list of cities page as 7 new cities have been announced, noticed the flag for Milton Keynes had been set to this:

This is not in fact an official flag of Milton Keynes, which appears to have chosen the flag (visible at the bottom of the linked page) recently - Official press release regarding city bid

Looking further, several other flags in the section are uploads from the same user which, creative though they may be, appear to be wholly unofficial ideas of what these cities flags could be, rather than any actual flags the cities in question have chosen, designed or flown.

As it stands I'm no expert in vexillology and don't really know how to go about defining and assessing whether flags should be on the page, but I think Own Work has to represent existing flags. I removed the flags for Wrexham, Doncaster and MK from List of cities in the United Kingdom, and I have my doubts about the one for Colchester, but I see these are also used on Flags of cities, towns and villages in the United Kingdom and it appears a number of other additions are from the same user. Could people who know more about flags find the time to go through this and fix issues if possible? Hedge89 (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I've noticed this too, a random flag representing Wrexham was uploaded despite not being in use here or announced here at all (It even based on a image not used since 1976). It seems @TMcB23 is creating "flags" based on every city's/town's coat of arms and calling them "flags" they are technically "banners of arms" rather than official flags right? and not sourced to be the official banner. (On the Commons description the user describes most of their uploads as "unofficial"). I do not recognise many of the flags they have added and dispute their inclusion. However, I am not really aware of the entire situation. So far they have tried to remedy my deletion of the flags by inserting new sources as requested. However many of there sources are photos of Coats of Arms, including from Flickr. Previously they cited another wiki, Heraldry-wiki which I'm not sure is fully reliable but even if so, the site only proves the Coat of Arms design not the Flag's design. They've reverted my mass deletion of their added flags, citing "good faith" in their uploads but I fail to see evidence of these flags' design. Should the uncited flags be deleted again as a precaution? – DankJae (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Want to note it also effects, list of English flags, list of Scottish flags, and list of Welsh flags. – DankJae (talk) 17:17, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

My sincere apologies if the Flag for Wrexham is not from a reputable source. The majority of the flags I have produced are from coats of arms clearly visible on public buildings in their respective settlements. Wrexham appears to have a more modern borough coat of arms and I, perhaps incorrectly, made the presumption that the older arms were representative of the town itself but I may be incorrect. The flags, largely, are not produced from assumptions however - I have tried to be as accurate as possible. The major problems lies that the original source is the College of Arms but they don't have a publicly accessible online source - unlike similar bodies in other countries. I'm fairly new to editing Wikipedia but I am trying my best to improve it in ways I can - I hope I'm not making a nuisance of myself. My basis for banners of arms is derived from a number of sources I read, including the Wikipedia article titled 'Banner of Arms". TMcB23 (talk) 17:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

RE Milton Keynes, I can't find any internet source to suggest the flag displayed on that webpage has been officiated by the College of Arms, it definitely hasn't been officiated by the Flag Institute which, although their officiated flags aren't law anyway, they are given permission to grant people to use them and keep a digital compendium on their website. TMcB23 (talk) 17:23, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Milton Keynes Coat Of Arms poster print by Robert Rusin | Flickr Not Sure if this is helpful or not but its one of a few secondary sources for the arms of Milton Keynes. TMcB23 (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Milton Keynes Coat Of Arms poster print by Robert Rusin | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/56810678@N08/7159318377) TMcB23 (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

This is an image of showing the Coat of Arms, yes this proves (more reliable source needed) the design of the Coat of Arms, but not the flag design uploaded. Please find a source for the flag design uploaded. Furthermore Flickr is a generally unreliable source. – DankJae (talk) 17:39, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, "The majority of flags I have produced are from the coat of arms", this is the main issue you're producing flags based on their coat of arms. If you are going to upload them please produce (technically digitise or re-produce) them based on sources of the flags themselves, not their coat of arms. Banners of arms can have many definitions, some councils listed simply put the coat of arms on a coloured background as their banner, an example is Bath where their Banner of Arms (at least from this unofficial source) is their CoA on a white background and not the image you have uploaded which is based on the shield in the centre and described as the "Flag of Bath". – DankJae (talk) 17:35, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, yeah I get that you're working from official coats of arms to create banners of arms, the issue is that you can't do that on wikipedia. If a town or city does not have a flag (either officially registered or just in use by the city) then the correct form on wikipedia is to have no flag, rather than make an unofficial banner of arms.

The fact is, MK does fly the rather new flag designed by a school child, but that is secondary to the fact that it has never flown the flag you designed. Think of it like...imagine there's an article for a village but no census data on the population. I can look up the village, count the houses and guess, based on averages, how many people live there, and that's fine. But I can't put that number on the wiki page for the village because it's not sourced, official or anything other than an educated guess on my part. It's a guess at how many people could live there but it doesn't belong on wikipedia. Hedge89 (talk) 10:26, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Questions about vectorizing a flag

So I've vectorized the flag of Chester County, PA and I have a question. I have made two versions of the flag, one that very closely follows the physical flag I own, and another with much higher detail. I don't know which to make the standard, but I am currently leaning towards the more simple one. Your input is appreciated!

A picture of the actual flag. Sorry for the bad quality

The simpler version

The more detailed version

Physeters^✉ 11:08, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

You have a physical flag. That is your source and should inform your digitalization. Everything else is an artifact of a medium, but the only medium that matters in this case is the actual flag which you have in your possession. VanIsaac, MPLL ^cont_WpWS 01:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Indeed; your physical flag has none of the "bells and whistles" that you have added to the "detailed" version, such as the horizontal lines on the blue or the hatching on the wheat bundles. This isn't "higher detail", it's a different flag. Primefac (talk) 08:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

This discussion is closed, the simpler flag with be the standard. Physeters^✉ 08:49, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

The Heraldry and Vexillology Barnstar

Hello members of Heraldry and Vexillology. Here is the Heraldry and Vexillology Barnstar. Judekkan (talk) 10:23, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Cool! Dronebogus (talk) 10:33, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Flag of Saudi Arabia RfC

You are invited to participate in an Commons RfC regarding which version of calligraphy should be used for the Flag of Saudi Arabia by default. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:31, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Blazon misinterpretation discussion

There's a discussion on Commons about deleting a CoA because the one depicted is different from that of the official deisgn of the municipality (the artist used an heraldic dolphin while the municipality uses a normal dolphin). This is likely a misinterpretation of how heraldry and blazons works. YOur input is appreciated.Eccekevin (talk) 07:19, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

London Boroughs

Help appreciated at Draft:Armorial of London. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 18:25, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Flag of FS Micronesia

I have just opened a discussion on the shade of blue used for the Micronesian flag on Commons. Posting here for greater visibility. Comments are welcome there. Seloloving (talk) 02:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Notification of RfC: Flag for Antarctica

Seeking consensus on which flag to use for Template:Country data Antarctica. Please discuss at Talk:Flag of Antarctica#RFC on main flag used in the country data template if interested. Federalwafer (talk) 04:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

National Library of Ireland

The website of the National Library of Ireland [[1]] contains a record of all the grants and confirmations of arms made by the Ulster King of Arms, and later the Chief Herald of Ireland, over the period of 1698 to 2009. I have already gone through volumes C, F, H, K, L and M for all subjects who have a Wikipedia page. It would help if more could get involved to speed things up. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 20:15, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Flag of the Republic of Benin (1967)

Hello. I believe that the article about the Flag of the Republic of Benin (1967) needs actual sources, and I am afraid, that the existance of the flag might have been made up. As of now, the only source given is a list of governors of the region. It lists a photo of the flag, with no further description, nor any source for where it comes from. Additionally, I personally couldn't find any actual information about the existence of the flag. The only mention online I could find is crwflags.com. This website is a blog, and and author there doesn't states any actual sources. What is more, Commons credits that blog, as the source of the flag image. All of this, together with the fact that the Republic of Benin existed only from around 7 hours, from its announcement to its fall to Nigerian army, and the fact, that design of the flag is basically just the flag Biafra, makes me worried that the flag did not actually existed, and had been made up by somebody online. This is why I'm writing here, asking for help in finding any proper source, mentioning the flag, or, deleting this article, in case no source can be found.

Sincerelly, Artemis Andromeda (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Flag of India

I have nominated Flag of India for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 20:20, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

MOS:REDUNDANCY on national flag pages

The MOS:REDUNDANCY policy says "Keep redundancy to a minimum in the first sentence. Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is not already given by the title of the article. The title of the article need not appear verbatim in the lead if the article title is descriptive". For example, if the article Flag of France wants to have a bold title and include links to national flag and France, this will be redundant. I have tried to fix this on maybe a hundred flag articles, but other editors kept violating policy by making the text bold, like in MOS:BOLDLINKAVOID. Anyone wants to help fixing this? PhotographyEdits (talk) 10:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

This is me asking the dumb question, but why cannot we simply say The flag of France ... is... instead of forcing a link that is probably not necessary? I don't disagree with you that non-bolding is accurate in the way you describe it, just wondering why the variant is necessary. Primefac (talk) 10:44, 1 September 2022 (UTC) (please do not ping on reply)

Why do you think that the link is not needed? I think it someone stumbles upon an article "flag of X", it should be trivial to find the X article if they don't know about X yet. PhotographyEdits (talk) 14:21, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Split proposal for Flag and coat of arms of Pennsylvania

Seeking discussion and/or support to show consensus here. Proposed this split both because heraldic and vexillologic history are broad enough to deserve separate articles, but because it follows a trend of 21 other US State "seal on a bedsheet" flags that also separate their pages. This discussion may also influence the future of 6 other US State flag/seal pages that might warrant splitting. TheTaraStark (talk) 17:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Disability Flag

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disability#Disability_flag

I have posted a question at WikiProject Disability that may also be of interest to this project.

Thank you. Slywriter (talk) 19:04, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Non-free vs free Stockton coat of arms

Hey everybody, I’m having a discusion with User:Roxy the dog, over the use of free user-made emblazonment instead of the current "official" non-free emblazonment, at the article Borough of Stockton-on-Tees. I've opened a talk page section at Talk:Borough of Stockton-on-Tees#Coat of Arms and would really appreciate if somebody more experienced in heraldry and coats of arms policy/practice could take a look and give their thoughts. Thanks Cakelot1 (talk) 20:29, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics/Political parties about party flags

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics/Political parties#Party flags in infoboxes, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. — Ætoms ^[talk] 15:25, 10 December 2022 (UTC)