Talk:List of best-selling music artists/Archive 46

Archive 40

←

Archive 44

Archive 45

Archive 46

Archive 47

Archive 48

Archive 49

RfC on listing method of best-selling music artists

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

As someone who never delved into this area, the discussion was quite confusing to follow at first, primarily due to the methodology adopted by editors here, an expansive section of the article that tries to explain and justify some of the choices made when creating and maintaining such a list. Reading some of the !votes in this RfC, those asking for a procedural close also seem to have a long history of disputes, which they don't believe this RfC will help solve. While this might be true, and which did make me lean on closing this as "no consensus/procedural close", reading the remainder of the discussion shows that these editors are willing to compromise and keep working on improving this list.

First of all, there is a consensus to use option C instead of the current methodology. Discussion among editors shows that this option will result in a less biased list, as it will present readers with the official number of sales as well as the claimed sales (which must always be accompanied by independent reliable sources). While participants agreed that certified sales are the most "official" source for the sales of a band or artist, they can be flawed due to a variety of reasons, such as the year of creation and flawed methodology, and the claimed sales will provide the missing information.

Editors are recommended to keep discussing how to improve the list, such as deciding a cut-off number for number of sales (claimed or certified).

(As a note, option C had already been implemented in the article by the time I formally closed the discussion, which was requested at WP:RFCC.) (non-admin closure) Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 02:33, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

---

Should this article list best-selling music artists by:

• A the total number of claimed sales.
• B the total number of certified sales.
• C both the number of claimed sales and certified sales (without the requirement for inclusion based on figures being supported by a percentage of certified units used in the current methodology).
• D number of "available sales" (i.e. any sales number given or claimed in reliable sources).
• E the methodology currently used.

Vladimir.copic (talk) 02:50, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Survey

• C. We should use and present the information we have available, to better help the reader understand what claims are being made on what basis. And we should be including acts that are obviously missing, or the list is grossly misleading. We have a huge section called "Definitions" the take-away message from which is "Cliff Richard, Diana Ross, Scorpions, Bing Crosby, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, Tom Jones, The Jackson 5, Dionne Warwick, the Spice Girls, Dolly Parton, Ozzy Osbourne, Frank Sinatra, Andrea Bocelli, Gloria Estefan and others have not been included on this list." I.e., the list is basically fragmentary, i.e. bullshitty.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:44, 19 August 2022 (UTC); rev'd. 06:09, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
• C But ensure that they are backed with quality sources. Excelse (talk) 06:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• C. Agreeing with Excelse, the claimed amount of sales should be backed up by quality, reliable, third-party sources. — Tom^(T2ME) 11:57, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• None of the above/procedural close - this RFC is just a survey for survey's sake. None of the options are tied to any analysis of sources, or are even defined properly. For example, what are "certified sales"? Certified by whom? Certified when? Certified where? These details are the problems with this list, and this RfC glosses over them. With all due respect, the problems on this page aren't going to be solved by voting on a quick 4-option poll. This should be closed and sent back for a proper WP:RFCBEFORE. Levivich 15:51, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• B This is an encyclopedia. We include information from reliable, verifiable sources. For that, the only reliable, verifiable source for the sales, is the certifying organization for each reported country. Anything else fails WP:V. I understand this causes problems with the underrepresentation of Motown and other artists. This is not our fault nor is it our problem to fix, to do so would be synth at best, WP:OR at worst, as it appears to be in the current state of the page. We can explain the lack of certain artists with regard to the historical context of when charting began, or other issues. But the only way to have a list of the best selling music artists, and have it be legitimate, is to include the verified sales from the reporting sources. FrederalBacon (talk) 16:03, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• C. Because it eliminates the current unsourced methodology conditioned by percentages and keeps the certified sales figures (something that is totally objective, ergo encyclopedic, and that provides valuable information). I have been thinking about it carefully, and although I had considered a methodology of option A based on D, I think that a new column containing the information described in option D, although it would certainly be valuable given the information it provides, perhaps its addition could be decided in the future; since as of today it is possible that its cells would be empty for a significant number of the music artists included in this List. I think option C can make the move away from the current methodology and subsequent transition clear and uncomplicated. In addition, there is always the possibility of adding some footnotes next to the claimed sales figures of some specific artists if necessary, like Frank Sinatra, for example. This will be a new era for this list, which will improve and be well prepared for the possible changes that may take place in the years ahead (such as adding a new column, for example, as option D implies) and that would be congruent with the change that is being decided here now. As I have said before, it is not accurate for a list titled "List of best-selling music artists" to include Barry Manilow or Luke Bryan and not Frank Sinatra. Changing the methodology that currently governs the List will undoubtedly allow us to solve many issues that have been perpetuated until now. Salvabl (talk) 20:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Per Levivich: close and seek an alternative. This is much too broad to be good as a focused RfC trying to address specific issues. The consensus could end up all over the place; people are mostly !voting C but E, the status quo, is a wholly separate option altogether, which to me says this needs further defining and refining. Too many options sets you up for WP:NOCONSENSUS; the fact that at this very early stage one is emerging that is in conflict with the status quo suggests a better RfC might be to narrow it down and exclude any other options as potential distractions. Which is more or less to say this particular RfC should never have been opened and structured as is to begin with — the better option would have been to just open up the floor to status quo, yes or no. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 04:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
• C Option addresses the issues better than all others. I support C per what has been already noted by others. Accesscrawl (talk) 06:04, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
• C option C is the best option that is in line with all of Wikipedia rules and policies. My rationale was given above but will pate it here as well. This is because as of today only 24 countries have a certification system. Thre was only one in the 1950s and started to increase gradually since the 1970s. However, many artists have lost millions of unit certifications because of this since the early 90’s. Furthermore, certifications are not automatic and record labels need to apply for it and also pay a certification fee in the process which create process delays or scenarios where the album is never updated like D'eux by Celine Dion, which was certified diamond in the France, which is equal to 1M units since 1994. As per latest report, the album has sold 4.5M units. However, due to the current method, we are only permitted to use the 1m units, instead of 4.5m units, essentially robbing Dion of 3.5 million sales. TruthGuardians (talk) 17:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
• Per Levivich: close Reading the conversations below and the same users saying the same things as always and with Harout72 gone I think it's time to close this article. The reason for this RfC in this article always seemed to me to invalidate the methodology in a desperate attempt to inflate sales of some artists, not to make it as accurate as possible. Furthermore, observing the comments below and the vote comments, I realize that it is better to close it than to put sales here without any criteria, just because they appear on websites, journals and magazines that do not count sales in the world, do not audit sales to make them believable (such as do the RIAA, IFPI, BPI and others) and, as already noted, copy the information from Wikipedia itself,contributing to what is called circular information.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 20:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
• C - As explained by Moh8213 below, combines utility of A and B, and better than the arbitrary complexity of current system. (Summoned by bot) Robert McClenon (talk) 16:52, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
• C I don't see any other option other than C that would cover the entirety of sales and certifications. It needs to be backed up by reliable sources as mentioned above. Closing this rfc is counter productive to resolving the issues that brought this rfc to the table to begin with. I think that option is as worse as D and E. I also believe that C would address the original research issues that have been mentioned in this discussion.MraClean (talk) 17:08, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
• C is the best option. I think this list should no longer be without legendary artists like Bing Crosby. AteneaZ3 (talk) 04:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

Here's my overall opinion on the options, as there's some pros and cons to the options listed above:

• A: seems like a good option, considering that we don't have to be concerned about who's gonna update the certifications daily, but unfortunately we ain't gonna have a discrepancy between the certified sales and claimed sales, and in this way it's possible to experience a lot of inflated sales for artists in this list.
• B: you'd think that this option is good because those sales comes from trustworthy organizations who certifies records, while that's maybe true, it's certainly not the case, those certified sales would definitely not represent the total sales of the artist, so far we only have 24 countries that have a certification system (actually there's a total of 57 countries that have a certification system, but the 24 we have here are the ones who would often reach the top 20 of the global music markets), also the former do make up the majority of the global music sales, but still we won't have sales from the rest of the world.
• C: this option seems like the best of both worlds, as we gonna have a discrepancy between the verifiable certified sales and claimed sales, and it's the one I'm more leaning towards, though it does has its own flaw, which is about updating the certifications, even if there's an editor who's gonna update the certifications daily, they certainly won't do it "forever".
• D: this is perhaps the worst option out of all, just simply by using any sales number given or claimed by reliable sources, that means we gonna a fully bloated list full of incredibly inflated and unrealistic sales figures like this or this.
• E: I guess I don't have to explain about this option...

With that being said I'm leaning towards C atm but I'm not so sure so I can't decide rn. Moh8213 (talk) 13:35, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

This should be the first RfC of many regarding improving the current state of the page. I hope this results in positive change, whatever it may be. I strongly support the idea that verifiable sources should be used at any and every possibility on this project, and this article that is full of contention regarding claims and numbers should absolutely limit itself to only verifiable sources. To do anything else just creates further controversy. If we can point to the exact numbers listed by the certifying agency, there can be no argument about those numbers. FrederalBacon (talk) 16:08, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I've stated this before at List of best-selling girl groups, which suffers from even worse problems and arguments than this article, but we need to bear in mind that very few countries had certification bodies before the 1990s, and I think the USA was the only one that had official certifications before 1973. So the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, Motown artists, and many other artists whose sales were mostly before the 1970s will have a low or non-existent level of certifications in many countries, so for those people voting for C, for these artists the further back in time you go, the more it effectively becomes A anyway. Richard3120 (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: Also, relying on certifications from the RIAA is problematic. While the rest of the US music industry adopted Soundscan for sales totals in 1991, the RIAA continued to use their own data. Revealing quote from the former head of the RIAA: “We think the certification process represents an accurate sales picture and we’re comfortable with the numbers we release,” says Rosen. “Gold and platinum is a marketing tool. We see it as a promotional opportunity to get an artists’ achievements more known to the public in a way that they can better understand.” Another worthwhile read: "RIAA rules create misleading album sales; Why record sales numbers don't add up" . JSFarman (talk) 21:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: I think you should have waited a little longer before doing this RfC, while the situation is still being resolved in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Harout72 is the only one who updated the certificates weekly/daily, if he gets banned from the page or just doesn't want to update anymore the only valid options will be A and D. He hasn't been here for about four days.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 00:54, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think there is much support for a TBAN or ABAN for Harout. Sure, there are issues with the article, but the idea is to work with them, to see if they are willing to make changes. At least that's what I would support. There's issues with OR and SYNTH, but Harout defending their methodology is to be expected, given how long they have been working on the page. It's only if they fly in the face of consensus, should consensus favor a change, where it would be a problem, IMO. FrederalBacon (talk) 02:22, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't love the idea of A, but if it looked something like this, it would be more honest than trying to imply that certified sales necessarily track neatly onto actual sales. This option is upfront about the inherent difficulties in tracking sales data, and may be the most neutral way to talk about the issue. There are simply no reliable, independent sources for worldwide music sales, especially for older artists. I'm almost tempted to endorse having A and B as separate pages entirely, but that probably comes with its own issues too. Pacack (talk) 06:34, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Pacack is right here, you cannot use certified sales as a good indication of true sales for older artists. We have a source from less than 12 months ago that states ABBA's sales are 150 million, but a quick Google search will show plenty of sources that state 300 or even 400 million. And all this on certified sales of under 69 million. Motown artists are even more difficult to estimate sales for, because label boss Berry Gordy was notorious for hiding sales figures from his own artists, and didn't register the label with RIAA until 1977, so many Motown records were never certified, despite several of them estimated to be multi-platinum sales figures. Editors should be aware that before the 1990s, all claimed sales figures came straight from the record companies' shipments records, so even if they were reported in a reliable source like Billboard or The New York Times or whatever, they still aren't independent figures, they are claims directly from the record companies.
  • I would also be wary of simply quoting the highest claimed sales figure... I think a range of figures from reliable sources would be more honest. Claimed sales for the Supremes range from 20 million to 100 million, although because of the previously stated problems with Motown sales, certified sales are likely to be under 10 million... the true sales figure probably lies in the middle of that 20–100 million range. And don't forget that the current automatic certification of streaming sales is in no way comparable to the long-winded process of auditing for physical sales back in the day... certifications are hugely biased towards modern-day artists. Richard3120 (talk) 16:07, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

    I agree. Certified sales figures grow faster for newer artists, but digital download is certainly not the same as physical album purchase. And regarding the use of ranges for claimed sales figures, I also believe it is necessary, since worldwide total sales is an unknown territory, and, although it may seem the opposite, it is the right way to be more accurate, with a larger margin of error. Because stating very specific claimed sales figures (conditioned by a sum total of several figures coming from certification systems of different countries in the world, whose establishment dates are decades apart) is to fall into speculation, which is what has been happening so far with the current methodology. Salvabl (talk) 23:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

    I mostly agree with your point here, but per WP:CALC, doing basic math to add up every region's certified sales data is permissible. Pacack (talk) 03:36, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

    It is bias that is not our fault. I'm not sure why there is this intense push on this article to correct for bias and provide a "fair reporting". The only fair reporting is certified sales. The issues with the RIAA are not our fault, we can explain the issues with the biases, but to set about to create a system to avoid the "official" sales records because we don't like them is not an option. We have one place for official numbers in the US, a collective dislike for that organization doesn't mean we get to ignore it. FrederalBacon (talk) 00:52, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

    I don't disagree with your premise that we should not be correcting biases, and we should report information from reliable secondary sources whenever these sources are available. However, I disagree with your claim that certified sales are "the only fair reporting."

    To clarify, I think the concerns being brought up by myself, Richard3120, and Salbabl are that music certification agencies such as the RIAA do not claim to be sources about worldwide music sales. (Of course, per WP:CALC, we may report on the sum of various regions' certified numbers for modern artists without it being WP:SYNTH. I don't contest that point.) They are also unable to verify claims about sales data from before they were established, such as in the case of Crosby.

    Secondary sources from sources such as WP:NEWSORG that do claim to report worldwide sales data are what we should be using as the gold standard for this article based on Wikipedia's policy to rely on reliable WP:SECONDARY sources for the bulk. For example, The Guinness World Records claims that Elvis Presley is the best selling solo artist of all time. They also claim that The Beatles are the best selling group of all time, but admit that this is based on an estimate from EMI, the label of the artist.

    This tension reveals the fundamental problem we're running into. As you yourself note, per WP:RGW, Wikipedia policy is to rely on information from reliable secondary sources without attempting to correct for any biases the original sources might have. (In this case, the bias is that they are taking the primary source they're pulling from at face value, when this may not be accurate.)

    From typing all of this out, I think I've finally decided that the way I would like to see this page go moving forward is to essentially do C, but use secondary sources for "claimed" sales data and change the category to "reported" sales instead. (This is per WP:PRIMARY policy to "not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them.") Pacack (talk) 03:34, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

    I second what Pacack says - certified sales are absolutely 100% NOT the fairest means of reporting, because as I have stated, they didn't exist before the mid-1970s for most countries. If certifed sales really were a true representation of actual sales, then Drake has sold almost as many records as Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley combined, Lil Wayne has outsold Queen, Led Zeppelin and U2 worldwide, and the Andrews Sisters - whose sales are reported around the 90 million mark - would not be anywhere on this list because their certified sales are precisely zero. Same goes for Sinatra and Crosby, whose certified sales are negligible... all three of these artists sold most of their records in the era when certifications didn't exist anywhere, not even in the USA. The title of this article would need to be changed to "List of most-certified artists". Richard3120 (talk) 13:52, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

    I couldn't agree more with both of you. I think the most valuable information certified sales can provide is what percentage of the total certified sales each country represents, as that can help to see how big an artist's global reach is. But beyond that, it's unknown territory. I agree with Pacack regarding the use of WP:NEWSORG. In the case of the highest claimed sales figures (1 billion for The Beatles, Jackson and Presley), we can find them in news sources (see here for The Beatles, here for Jackson, and here for Presley). And if we talk about Jackson and Presley (something that usually generates conflict between users, though it should not be so), both have been described as "the best-selling music artist of all time", respectively. In Jackson's case by the RIAA, and in Presley's case by Guinness World Records. Neither of those two organizations has authority to certify total worldwide sales (no one really does, because as I said before, it's unknown territory) nor are they news sources. But I think that in this case, they could be added as secondary references next to the news sources references, since currently in Elvis Presley's article we can read that "Presley remains the best-selling solo music artist according to Guinness World Records" and in Michael Jackson's article we can read that "He is regarded by the RIAA as the highest-selling individual music artist of all time worldwide." In this way, the transition would be easier, with no major changes in the articles of artists like Jackson and Presley, while keeping a good uniformity without causing additional conflicts. Regarding The Beatles' claimed sales, the 1 billion figure also appears in news sources, even when it was a figure initially claimed by EMI; it is the same for the other 1 billion figures, claimed by the artists' Estates. Salvabl (talk) 16:25, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

While I agree with most of the points you guys have brought, tbh I really don't support the idea of adding a billion sales claim for all those 3 artists, while this may settle the conflicts between those 3 artists' record sales, it is a fact that one of 'em sold more than the other, and its a fact we need to accept (especially for the fans of those artists). Record sales were decent in the 50s, 60s and 70s, but they definitely weren't strong enough to push all those 3 artists to a billion records, also we have to consider that the population was a lot smaller back then, plus other than the current certified sales we have on those 3 artists, we aren't supposed to believe that they sold as much (if not even more) in the developing world than in the developed world, it just doesn't make sense whatsoever. In fact, we are already considering the Beatles' 600 million records claim as inflated, so what would justify us to use the billion sales claim for all those 3 artists? Moh8213 (talk) 18:25, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I share your concerns. Being honest, I will always think that no one has sold 1 billion records. However, it is a claimed sales figure that exists and is there, covered by news sources, and other types of sources. I don't like inflated figures, but I also don't like the lack of equal treatment of artists, and above all I really dislike the conflict between users, so all this is difficult to handle. If you ask me what I think about it (from a personal point of view, which is just that and should not have any value here) I will tell you that I think The Beatles have sold more than Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley without any doubt. One only has to look at the certified sales in Japan (the second biggest market): when the Japanese certification system was established (in 1989) The Beatles had disbanded almost two decades earlier, Presley had died 12 years earlier and Jackson was at a mid-point in his music career (he had already released the albums "Off the Wall", "Thriller" and "Bad" earlier); and the certified sales figures are 4.95M for The Beatles, 0.3M for Presley, and 4.65M for Jackson. Clearly The Beatles are on another level. However, about who is the best-selling individual music artist, I will tell you that it is an unknown for me, even though I have spent countless hours researching as much as I can about it because I would really want to know; but as I said before it is unknown territory, impossible to determine. What is clear to me is that whether it is Jackson or Presley, the difference between them is really small at present. Both artists have uncertified sales, but... who has more? We can't know either.

In Presley's case, his beginning in terms of music sales was in 1956. The U.S. certification system was established in 1958, so the time span in which sales were not properly certified is not too large. Subsequent certification systems were established in the 70s (Finland in 1971, UK and France in 1973, Germany and Canada in 1975; also Australia already had certifications), but I think that in Presley's case the only truly remarkable market for him (and where there may be millions of uncertified records before 1973) is the UK, because of cultural reasons and language. Of course there are also sales in countries like Germany and France, but these are smaller markets (more at that time than now) where the missing sales are not so remarkable. For example, Presley's certified sales in Germany are 1.2M as of today; even doubling the figure to try to compensate for pre-1975 sales would not be comparable to The Beatles' 8M or Michael Jackson's 11.275M. In terms of sales outside the US Elvis Presley is not on the same level as The Beatles, Jackson or Madonna.

If we talk about Jackson's sales that went uncertified, we have the case of Japan, where there was no certification system even when the singer had already given concerts there as part of his Bad World Tour (which started in Japan), or the case of Mexico, where the album Thriller has 2.6M certified sales by a certification system established in 1999, the question is: how many uncertified sales are in that country since the album was released until 1999? Nobody knows. And those figures in Mexico are only for one Jackson's album. However, Mexico is not a relevant market for Presley's sales, since as of today his certified sales there are only 105K. As I said before, both Jackson and Presley have missing sales, but in Presley's case we can see what is the US-rest of the world sales ratio considering data generated when certification systems already existed in the main markets of the world, and we will see that the percentage that US sales represent is really high for Presley. It is a cultural factor, since even if we look at the box office figures of the Elvis biopic (53.7% Domestic / 46.3% International) or the Michael Jackson's This Is It film (27.6% Domestic / 72.4% International), we see that the Elvis biopic has a much higher percentage in the USA than in the rest of the world, while in the case of Jackson, his documentary/film has a higher percentage in the rest of the world. For all these reasons it is very difficult to resolve the doubt of who is the best-selling individual music artist with any accuracy. We may have personal opinions, but they are just that, and we can always be wrong since they would be based on speculation due to the lack of objective data.

Because of that, and because I know that this usually causes conflicts between users, I believe that the most convenient is to equal the claimed sales figures for these two music artists. For that reason, and thinking about other possible cases I would like to propose the addition of a Rank column similar to the one we can find in the List of largest extant lizards that would allow to give the most equal treatment possible to these two artists by placing them both in the same position #2 (with one Rank column's cell spanning the two rows of both artists). For example, recently the opening lines in the Presley's article were changed so that it read the same as the Michael Jackson article. I think that's fine, and the Rank column could help to maintain that equal treatment uniformity for these two artists.

Regarding the inflated figures, if it were up to me numbers would be much lower than 1 billion, of course, but I think that currently the best we can do, in order to allow the inclusion of artists like Frank Sinatra in this List, is to add ranges. Maybe in the future, we can add more sources to support certain uncertified sales figures in each country/market and provide additional information (that's why I considered the most appropriate methodology would be an option A based on D), but for the moment, to correct the main issues (such as the absence of artists like Sinatra) option C is a good first step to simplify everything and make a smooth transition. Salvabl (talk) 13:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Salvabl: just to add to that... in the case of why ABBA's certifications are so much lower than their claimed sales, I can say from personal experience that in the 1970s and 80s when I was visiting South America as a child, the band were one of the few non-Latin acts at the time with a big presence - their albums were widely available in record stores, and were present in many households, no doubt helped by Latin-influenced songs like "Fernando" and "Chiquitita". It would not surprise me at all if they had sold 100 million records across all Latin America, but with no charts, no certification bodies and no reliable sources counting the sales, there is no way of confirming the true sales figures in the region, but they certainly will not be negligible. Richard3120 (talk) 14:43, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

ABBA's case is singular. It also makes me think of the case of Roberto Carlos, a singer active since 1951, who has sold millions of records in his home country, Brazil, but because the Brazilian certification system was established in 1990, most of his sales were not certified, and he has not been able to be included in this List so far due to the current methodology. The ABBA phenomenon in Spanish-speaking countries could also be seen in Spain, and certainly, songs with Spanish titles such as "Chiquitita" played an important role. Anyway, I have usually read claimed sales figures higher than the 150M that we can find right now on the List; we will have to check if the sources claiming them are reliable, but I think it will not be difficult to find references for claimed sales figures up to 300M (I have done a quick search and have found reliable sources claiming sales figures of 200M, see here). Salvabl (talk) 19:06, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I feel like this is all just something beyond our help. To create this page is to work with one arm tied behind your back, due to the lack of verifiable information. It's why it's contentious, it's why it's hotly debated, and it's why it's hard to come to consensus. Without verifiable information, anyone can make a claim that an artist has sold a certain amount of records. It's why I don't like C, because C becomes A for the vast majority of countries, as has been pointed out above. It's also why I'm so for B. I understand the problems, I understand the concerns with using just certified numbers. But because there are going to have problems with this list no matter which methodology, it only makes sense to go certified sales, as if we simply did that for every artist, and explained the lack of some artists on the article, there can't be any argument. The number is the number is the number. It stops Editor A from finding an article that says the Beatles sold way more than they did and using it, just to have Editor B go "That's not reliable" and remove it. Every single methodology except B will result in more conflict. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

It will be very misleading to only use certified sales, because only a handful of countries have a certification system, and it doesn't cover the total ww sales of the artist. If we solely gonna use the B option, then all newer artists will go to the top of the list, with Drake being at the very top, this gon' make readers to believe that Drake is the "best-selling artist of all time" which is far from being the case, that's simply due to certifications (thanks to streaming) are pretty much worthless nowadays, it'd make artists (especially the newer ones) easily obtain gold and multi-platinum record certifications, and that's where claimed sales come into place, by also using the claimed sales (which covers the certified sales + sales from other territories), and by adding the certified sales itself, we at least gonna have a balance between the certified sales and the claimed sales of the artist. Moh8213 (talk) 21:46, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I honestly believe B is by far and away the worst option of the five. The number may well be the number, but what that number most definitely is not is the sales, because apart from the last ten years or so, certifications have NEVER been the number of sales. Using solely certifications introduces at least three systematic biases into the list: a bias towards artists in the streaming era versus artists in the era of physical sales; a bias towards artists releasing music in the era when certifications existed versus when they didn't; and a Western-centric bias towards artists whose sales are mainly in developed countries which have had certification bodies for longer. Using B will almost certainly cause more arguments and edit warring on this page, not less – readers will rightly be baffled as to why the Beatles are now only the fourth-best selling artist despite being described as the biggest sellers in numerous sources, and Elvis Presley doesn't even make the top ten. The only way I could possibly support option B is to rename the article List of most certified music artists, because any other title would be totally misleading.

I do agree with your first point, though – there will never be a happy consensus about his article, and any option will always cause many arguments, which is why my option for this and List of best-selling girl groups has always been F – get rid of the articles altogether. I know that won't be a popular option, though... Richard3120 (talk) 22:32, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit: Using certifications creates an additional problem – the numbers on this page will be completely different from the sales numbers on the individual articles of every artist on this list. The Beatles have 289 million certified units, their article says 600 million. Drake has 404 million certified units, his article says 170 million. You wouldn't just have to watch this page, you'd have to change the figures on the articles of every major artist, and argue with editors on all those articles about why the figures have been changed. Richard3120 (talk) 22:56, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I think that you and Moh8213 have explained it perfectly. I understand FrederalBacon's concerns, but if we choose option B it would be necessary for this List to cease to be named "List of best-selling music artists", since if a methodology based on option B were implemented artists such as Frank Sinatra could not be included. And artists like Justin Bieber would be above Madonna, Elvis Presley and Michael Jackson. This would be correct only if this list were transformed into a different one named "List of most certified music artists", as Richard3120 has pointed out.

On the other hand, I believe that a methodology based on option C may provide greater uniformity with the several articles involved, as we can currently find figures in the artists/bands' articles that differ from those in this List due to the percentages requirements. Apart from that, I also find relevant what Richard3120 has stated about possible Western-centric bias towards artists. It is true that option B would cause it, but I believe this problem already exists now in the List, as there are percentage-based requirements of certified sales figures from a limited number of countries/markets. Option C will allow us to see Frank Sinatra, The Andrews Sisters, as well as Mr. Children (and perhaps Teresa Teng) and Roberto Carlos included in this list. I think this will be more accurate for a list named "List of best-selling music artists". Salvabl (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment: If we decide to keep "Certified units" in this article, then the number of artists should be trimmed down. Please note that currently there are 118 artists on this page, and believe me, nobody will give a sh1t to update and maintain all of their certifications from 23 different organizations (per my count on this page). That's a lot lot work to do, and people are just gonna care for their favorites. Per User:Moh8213, even if there's one dedicated editor updating the figures daily, they still wouldn't be here forever. Bluesatellite (talk) 01:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment: I agree. I think the list could contain artists who have sold over 200 million, either by "claim sales" or by certified sales, or even two lists including each case. I don't see the need for so many artists, too much work. There are about 20 artists who have reached that amount with "claim sales", and 12 with "certified sales", and I think that's enough.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 06:26, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment: It's been a week since @Harout72 decided to stop updating or getting involve in the list. Usually, he's very active to ensure all certified sales of each artists being updated daily, while me in the other hand make sure all "deserved artist" included on the list with the right estimation sales release by a highly regarded news organization. Harout72 and me, we never own this list. We're just editor who care with the content inside. Both of us handle the list since 2012 until last week (10 years) and because of that, you guys able to enjoy seeing your favorites artist in the list from David Bowie, Alicia Keys, Luke Bryan, Usher, Shakira, Alabama, R. Kelly, Robbie Williams, Bob Seger, Enya, Bob Marley, The Police, Aretha Franklin, Christina Aguilera, Justin Timberlake, Johnny Cash, Simon & Garfunkel, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Linkin Park, Coldplay, Lil Wayne, Maroon 5, Kanye West, Chris Brown, Flo Rida, Drake, Justin Bieber, Adele, Lady Gaga, Bruno Mars, Nicki Minaj, Ed Sheeran, Imagine Dragons, Ariana Grande, The Weeknd to Post Malone. Of course this list isn't perfect but we're able to make this list survive and quite reliable with support from many of the world's greatest news organization for 10 years. Now, with @Harout72 decided to stop. I'm not sure this list will continue to look reliable and fun enough without Harout72 and me. Whatever your choice with A or B or C or D. Politsi (talk) 08:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I tend to agree with @Bluesatellite and @Markus WikiEditor about reducing the number of listed artists. I think a plausible option for this transition is to reduce the number of listed artists to 100, as that is a usual number in lists and tops. But, of course, we can discuss about reducing more the number of artists. Apart from that, as I said before, we will see artists and bands like The Andrew Sisters included in the list, and these kind of artists/bands will not require a certified sales update as frequently as the newer ones. Anyway, I think doing a weekly update of the certified sales figures would be enough to keep the list updated. Harout72 has decided to cease his activity since 10 days ago, but if we look at the List's edit history, we can see that 3 users (TheWikiholic, Moh8213 and myself) have carried out updates of the certified sales figures. I think that it is happening what I said in my previous messages, that now there are users, some of them usually active in music-related content, who are starting to contribute to this List, whereas they hadn't done so until now probably due to Harout72's attitude. I think we have already taken a big first step away from WP:OWNERSHIP on this List, and let me tell you that the current atmosphere of discussion is really positive. We are deciding important changes, and although there are different points of view, the development of the discussion is being impeccable, while in the past any minor matter could cause a big conflict. What we have now is what should have been for a long time. @Politsi, I have never considered you to have incurred in WP:OWNERSHIP like Harout72, as your attitude in discussions has always been correct. As I have already stated in other messages, the existence of a Wikipedia article cannot depend on a single editor's activity, because then WP:OWN is evident. Likewise, it is not correct if, in an article like this, 2 users share ownership over two parts of the list (such as certified sales, and claimed sales figures). I don't think that was the case, and we only have to go to your contributions history to see it. It was not you who used ANI reports as a tool to try to prevent changes (changes not related to certified sales figures). The best way would be that any user can contribute to any part of the List. I think this is how it should be for a Wikipedia article, and that way this List will definitely be active. Salvabl (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it's harsh/unfair to trim the current 118 artists on this list, there are pretty significant artists in the 75 million club like Nirvana, Enya, Bob Marley, Tupac, just to name a few. Even if we removed some of the artists on this list, it'll still be difficult to update/maintain the list daily, it's also an incredibly time-consuming and rather "confusing" process, and that's why I'm hesitant on choosing the C option. The reason why it was smooth for Harout to update this list for all this time is because he has detailed files which includes the certified sales for all artists on this list, hence it was easy and less confusing for him to update this list, but now since Harout isn't active, idk how it's gonna turn out, I don't mind if he gonna come back and continue editing this article, but if gonna do so, then this time he has to be much more open minded towards other people's POV's. There's one solution in my mind that might solve the C option issue, and that's to bring a bot that'd automatically update the artists' certified sales every time a new certification pop up in the database, ik this may sound ridiculous, but tbh it's interesting to consider, I'm sure this solution also has it's own flaws, but in this way we won't be concerned about updating the certified sales. Moh8213 (talk) 23:13, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that there are very significant artists with 75 million claimed sales figures. It is possible, though, that after the implementation of a new methodology based on option C, some of those artists will have claimed sales figures of 100 million, for example. Anyway, I see fine to keep 75 million as the beginning of the List. Regarding the update of the certified sales figures, I know that Harout used files created by him personally (I have some of those files), but I don't think it is necessary at all (it may, even, take more time), since if something like that, outside of Wikipedia, were necessary, then it would not be appropriate to continue with it. However, the List's edit history is really useful for this purpose because, as long as we keep adding appropriate and informative edit summaries, it will be easy to track and review any changes since the last update. We (you, for example) are already handling it well now. We will be able to update more certified sales figures in the first days of September. At that time, the List will be up to date. After that, it will be easy to continue updating certified sales figures in the following weeks. Salvabl (talk) 00:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

@Salvabl are you sure you guys able to updating the certified sales of each artists consistently every day?. If we look from edit history, @Harout72 always consistently updated the list several times a day. I feel the list begin losing their soul following Harout's quit. This list is so famous and even mentioned in some article of Billboard magazine https://www.billboard.com/music/chart-beat/harry-styles-harrys-house-five-burning-questions-1235080035/ Like it or not. The current methodology, it's the best idea on how this list operate. Politsi (talk) 07:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you @Politsi:, and if Harout72 doesn't come back, I think this article should be closed or deleted. From what I see in the comments, things can get worse and those absurd claims sales (millions or even billions) can return to the article again, even after so much effort to make things as accurate as possible.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 07:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

The comments of both @Politsi and @Markus further prove just how deep-rooted the issues are on this page due to the user-generated policies and single-user maintenance. There are multiple users who update the certifications of albums and singles on a daily basis. If I was the user who maintained this list over the past decade, I would have not kept the certification list in a doc file. I would have kept it on Wikipedia in a subpage like List of best-selling music artists/The Beatles (or whatever artist listed here) to have a better idea of each artist' available certifications for all the readers. Even if harout72 is active we would have to ask him personally for each artist’s file to know whether the certification is included in this list or not… I’m doing this before in the past, but I have discovered mistakes on his list. These kinds of WP:OWNERSHIP issues should be avoided at all costs as we know that there is no WP:DEADLINE in Wikipedia.— TheWikiholic (talk) 15:46, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

No one care about the rule of Ownership or Deadline or whatever you are saying. Everyone looking for a completed and a fresh list with a new detail of certified Sales and claim sales from a very reliable source. That's how this list should be. Looking on the edit history of the list. I never see your name @TheWikiholic consistently do some effort to maintain the reliability of the list. Politsi (talk) 20:45, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Claiming that no one cares about Wikipedia's rules can be understood as encouraging their breaking. Wikipedia is a place that has rules; they play an important role, and as long as they exist they must be followed. This is not a personal blog. It's like when I proposed the addition of this reference to support The Beatles' 500M claimed sales figure and you replied that it should not be added because of the paywall. That's really only your opinion, since, as user JSFarman replied to you, according to WP:PAYWALL the reference is valid and can be added. These are Wikipedia's rules and neither you nor I can change them or break them. It should also be noted that the certified sales figures are not going to disappear from the List. Moreover, there is no situation of outdatedness (several certified sales figures have been updated today) since the user Harout72 ceased his activity. On the contrary, we only have to go to the List's edit history to see that more than one user is currently contributing to keep the certified sales figures updated. Salvabl (talk) 23:01, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment: Whatever "methodology"/"option" followed, seems there will always exits inclusion/removal of some artists. With option C, it can be perfectly added virtually every artist and their claimed sales with the minimum amount established, either 75, 100 or above. Thus, many of the artists that y'll haven't probably heard, from non-English speaking areas, will have an 'automatic inclusion'; supported by English sources, or newspaper of record/news organization of their areas. If the list still existing, I would suggest one more time, having an artist's page with their numbers (Talk:List of best-selling music artists/X example) to track their numbers. -Apoxyomenus (talk) 21:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

It is true that the number of artists included in the list will increase. That is why I had suggested the option of a minimum claimed sales figure of 100M instead of 75M. In any case, artists such as Frank Sinatra or The Andrews Sisters will not require frequent updating of their certified sales, so the dedication required to keep the List's figures updated will remain essentially unaffected.

Regarding the inclusion of non-Western artists, I think it is something positive since we are on the Wikipedia in English language (a global language) and this List should provide worldwide coverage (in part it already does). Apart from that, I don't think there are many non-Western artists to be added. For example, if we focus on the Chinese music sphere, a territory with millions of consumers, with thousands of relevant artists from different decades lacking certification systems, perhaps the only artist that could be included in the list is Teresa Teng. And, after doing a quick search, I have not yet found a reliable source claiming a high enough claimed sales figure to be included in this list. And Teresa Teng is probably the most significant individual music artist in modern Chinese music. Apart from Teng, I don't see it possible that any other Chinese artist or band could be included.

Another example are the groups that we can find in the "List of best-selling girl groups"; of all of them only 3 could be included: The Andrews Sisters, The Supremes and Spice Girls, no others. The case of groups like The Andrews Sisters is similar to that of Frank Sinatra. At the time when they sold the most records, there were no certification systems. This should not be a reason to exclude them, taking into account that this has been the reason for the establishment of percentage-based fabricated requirements that until now have benefited the artists whose careers began when certification systems only existed in the U.S. and not in other countries/markets. However, it has not affected other artists in the same way. Madonna is a good example, because although there were a greater number of markets with certification systems when her career began, her global reach is greater than other earlier artists, resulting in a situation of unequal treatment toward artists. That's why I believe that the percentage-based requirements, apart from being fabricated, are a nonsense. Salvabl (talk) 13:12, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we have to be concerned about non-Western artists, as it'll be very unlikely that they've sold at least more than 75 million records or more, let's take China and India for example, while they do have an enormous population, in fact China/India has more inhabitants than North America, Central America and South America COMBINED, yet for the longest time, both of these countries barely made the top 20 of the global music markets. In other words, China and India has pretty weak music markets, much weaker than other markets like the United States, Japan, Europe etc... and with the lack of a certification system in both countries, I don't see any reason to include artists from those regions. Moh8213 (talk) 16:06, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't be quite so confident as you about that... having spent a large part of my life in South America, I know that an artist who is popular in one country in that region is likely to be popular across the whole of Latin America, due to the shared language from Mexico to Argentina, and if their career is long I could easily see them selling tens of millions of records in total. For example, Vikki Carr is American but of Latin descent and made many records in Spanish... I know she was very popular in South America during the 1960s and 70s. It's no guarantee that she or any other Latin music artist would have reached 75 million sales, of course – I'm just saying I wouldn't dismiss the idea so easily. Richard3120 (talk) 16:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

What Moh8213 has explained is true; countries like China or India are not large music markets despite having a big population. However, I think that even if the markets are small, there can always be exceptions of some specific artists. For example, the case of Roberto Carlos comes to mind. I was in Brazil 11 years ago and I remember a woman who told me that when she was a child there were Roberto Carlos' records in every Brazilian home. This is just a personal anecdote, nothing more. But it is true that Roberto Carlos has been an active singer since 1951, nicknamed "O Rei" (in English: The King) in his home country, and that according to reliable sources he sold millions of records before Brazil established its certification system in 1990. Anyway, what I meant in my previous message is that there are not many cases like this one, where there are reliable sources available that claim a high enough claimed sales figure to be included in this List.

How much a market generates out of the total global music sales could only be determinative if the sales of a specific artist were distributed in exactly the same proportion in all those markets. The sales percentage generated by a specific country/market is a consequence of the sales of numerous artists with different degrees of global reach.

For example, a US-oriented band such as Lynyrd Skynyrd do not have the global reach of Madonna. However, their 30.2 million records sold in America do count when determining how much American market represents in comparison to the rest of the world for the music industry global sales. The deeper the analysis we carry out, the more we realize the incoherence of the current methodology.

@Apoxyomenus, sorry I almost forgot to give you my opinion about your proposal of having an artist's page with their numbers (Talk:List of best-selling music artists/X example). I think it is a good idea, and I will support its creation. Perhaps the best time for this would be after the implementation of the new methodology. I believe it is something that can be really useful and helpful for the future of the List. Salvabl (talk) 20:17, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Depends in the artist too, for example Western acts such as Kylie Minogue, Kate Bush, or Robbie Williams enjoyed success in Australia/United Kingdom, and some other countries but historically with poor stats in United States, an English-language speaking country and the biggest market. Nevertheless, Minogue alone, for example have claimed sales above 80 million, and with option C and keeping artists with 75M figures, she could be automatic added. Keep in mind, some regional acts, like a Turkish artist could sell in the past millions of their several albums in their country alone, and same goes to other artists in peculiar markets where national records outsold international releases most of the times, and some of them have minor/mid crossovers. Japan for example, while I don't know Japanese artists there exists the possibility of older ones having a lot of million records sold considering RIAJ began in the late 1980s and they have been historically a national-consumption music market; there exists even a phrase for Western acts called Big in Japan and global artists like Adele is not even one. Then, exists multilanguage acts, a bit old as Dalida with French-language markets being various countries as well (Dalida's main markets), or more recent examples such as Andrea Bocelli, Laura Pausini or Enrique Iglesias to mention few, as they have various certified units in several markets across several continents, perhaps even more than Motown artists in comparison. Those are some examples that came to my mind, but seems that the list goes and goes. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 21:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

It is true that there are cases like that, artists who are very successful in a specific region and not in others. Regarding Japan, except for some cases of limited success of some old rock bands, it was a country not very interested in "modern music" until the 70s; in the first half of the 20th century, while in the USA people listened to Sinatra, in Japan they listened to folk music and only the young audience listened "modern" music of a genre called Kayōkyoku. That genre/style had a rather slow development in a country with a music market that should have grown faster. Perhaps the only remarkable name from that earlier period, with some international fame, is Kyu Sakamoto (whose claimed sales figures are 13M, so he could not be added to the list). As I said in my previous messages, I think there are very few non-western artists that can be added. I have been researching about some Japanese artists considered "legends" in their country and have not found claimed sales figures above 75M for them (not even searching in Japanese) supported by any kind of source.

It is different with “classic” western music artists and multilanguage acts. Dalida is a really good example, there is also the case of Charles Aznavour. Anyway, I think we would not be wrong if we affirm that Aznavour has sold more records than Kenny G (who is already added in this list since years ago). Salvabl (talk) 20:48, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Linda Ronstadt really not active in the present.

It says she’s active from 1967 to the present. She retired in 2011 due to supranuclear palsy and Parkinson’s disease. She was really active from 1967 to 2011. The “List of Best-Selling Music Artists” page is uneditable to “prevent vandalism”. Eric Nelson27 (talk) 08:35, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Done TheWikiholic (talk) 03:19, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Multiple artists feature rule

I think this rule should be abolished, as it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to limit entry just to three artists, cuz first of all, who are we to judge how much an artist contributed to a song? Cuz no matter how minor their contribution were, they've got paid for it at the end of the day, and as long as they're appropriately listed as a "featured" artist on the track, then surely we should include the certification to that artist's overall certified sales. If there are no objections, then I guess it's safe to say that we'll proceed with the change. Moh8213 (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

That's a good point, especially if the track is included on participating artists' albums, which then get certified based on the track's sales and streams (if the song is a big hit it would weigh in much more than any solo tracks of the album). So, it doesn't have much sense to not include certification of the single, but include certifications of the album which features the single.--Uncleangelo (talk) 17:43, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I totally agree with the abolition of this rule. It is, as was the case with other conditions under the past methodology, something fabricated and, in this case, difficult to find sense in it. Salvabl (talk) 22:38, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

So what are we going to do in cases like the song We Are The World.—TheWikiholic (talk) 03:30, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, that's not the same case as that song is credited to a supergroup 'USA for Africa', and not to individual participating artists. On the other hand, songs that include four or five artists who are all credited should be included, because as Moh8213 mentioned, how can we really tell how much the credited artist contributed to the song? For example, 'Lady Marmalade' has vocals by four artists, yet Christina Aguilera has contributed more to that single, then to 'Moves Like Jagger' where, even though she's the only artist featured, her part is only about 20 seconds long? Also, certifications of Kanye West's 'Monster' aren't added to his total, yet the song is on his album and has contributed to the album's certifications.--Uncleangelo (talk) 20:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Good luck working out Snoop Dogg's worldwide sales as a featured artist... Richard3120 (talk) 15:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Snoop Dogg is not on the list.--Uncleangelo (talk) 15:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Moving Rihanna to Tier 2

Hi all. It's been a while. I applaud all of your work and understand this list has been the source of much contention lately. I'd like to open up some dialogue, as I haven't been around for quite some time.

I propose that we move Rihanna down to the 200-250 million group. She started in 2005, has not had any wildly successful album sales and is just postured by her certifications from streaming and singles. As an example, Eminem is an artist from 1999-2000 and he also is in the same certification range (320-340 million), yet he has actually released albums that have sold 20-25 million physical copies. My suggestion is have Rihanna at the top of Tier 2 with the claim of 230m, Eminem next with his current claim of 220m and the rest of the list remains untouched. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 06:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Let's do that. Politsi (talk) 06:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Respect your suggestion, but I disagree. After Rihanna being on that club for a long time, I don't see any purpose to move her to tier 2. There are a lot of people who have unfavourable view on singles, and they'd comment that singles can't be on the same level as albums, while that's true to a certain extent, singles (just like albums) are still considered "records", regardless of its significance, and Rihanna sold tons of singles even prior the "streaming" era. Moreover, Rihanna has always been considered the most successful artists who come out on the last 17 years, so it shouldn't be surprising that she's the only one who make it to that club. As for that Eminem comparison, yes, he did sale more albums than Rihanna, but their singles sales is pretty much at the same rate, let's not forget that Eminem also has a strong streaming-generated singles on his catalogue. There have been proposals to move Eminem to tier 1, the only problem is that we currently don't have any reliable source that explicitly states that he sold 250 million, so that's why he's still at tier 2. Moh8213 (talk) 11:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I also support the move. It seems she sold millions of downloaded songs, but there are heavily streaming generated figures, pre/post retroactively. She has now several years in the tier-1 club, but as for the context in the streaming era, I tend to believe there would be necessary at that time, a broadly discussion like it happened with Beyoncé, or Taylor Swift instead of merely move her with one/two users opinion. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 15:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I oppose the move. Rihanna's catalog isn't fully certified, unlike Eminem. And I think most of her certifications are before 2016 and they are mostly generated by song downloads. Once her solo work is recertified like Eminem in the USA it would be more than 298M units. Furthermore, moving Rihanna to tier two will also impact the current positions of artists like Taylor Swift and Beyonce. TheWikiholic (talk) 03:43, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2022

90.246.80.228 (talk) 22:03, 17 October 2022 (UTC)Sabhi Jaman is a popular youtuber

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:51, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Christina Aguilera

Hi. What level of certifications should Christina Aguilera have under the new guidelines to adding her among the 100 million records sold group? It can be supported by this source from NME magazine. Melketon (talk) 14:25, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

She must have at least 82m certified sales and the source support must come from a news organization. Politsi (talk) 10:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

abtc.ng is a content scraper, not a reliable source with editorial oversight – I am not going to mess with the table in the article, but please find a reliable source for the "Clamed sales" info about Aguilera, which is currently sourced to abtc.ng. --bonadea contributions talk 13:32, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

abtc.ng is owned by Wiggles Creatives, which is an online media publishing. It's not a prestigious news source, but still it's a legal news organization. Therefore we can use it only for temporary. How about you? can you help us to find a better source for Aguilera's 90m claim?. Politsi (talk) 03:25, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2022

In Section "250 million or more records" change table heading "Release year of first charted record" to "Release-year of first charted record".

This will match the other tables on the page. 199.27.253.151 (talk) 22:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Aoidh (talk) 08:11, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Christina Aguilera

Christina Aguilera has sold over 130 -150 million records by now sony recently updated it she's the only 2000s female artist with a DIAMOND certified single so please update Xtina sales asap!!!!!!! 190.83.130.92 (talk) 09:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Coldplay

Coldplay's single 'A Sky Full of Stars' has certified 2x Platinum, Viva la Vida has certified 3x Platinum in Germany. Esambuu (talk) 00:01, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

 Added TheWikiholic (talk) 15:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

RIAA's recent certifications of Drake

• Hotline Bling 10× plat prev 8× plat =2m units
• More Life 3×plat =3m units
• What A Time To Be Alive 2× plat prev plat =1m units
• IF YOU'RE READING THIS ITS TOO LATE 3×plat prev 2×plat =1M units
• I'm Upset 3×plat =3m units
• Thank Me Later 3× plat prev plat =2M units
• Controlla 5×plat prev 3×p =2m unit
• One Dance 10×plat. Prev 8×plat =2m
• Non stop 7×plat = 7m unit
• God's Plan 15×plat Prev 11× plat.= 4 M unit

On December 8, RIAA certified singles equal to a total of 27m units, but they only added 20m to Drake's tally, thus bringing his total from 164m to 184m. What should we do in this situation? Should we add the 27m or the 20m? TheWikiholic (talk) 09:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

@TheWikiholic: I ran the advanced search for format=Single and type=Digital here. With a little work, I parsed it to get 74 platinum singles totalling 184 million units, plus a gold single for another 0.5 million, so it's basically consistent with the 184 in the tally used to source List of highest-certified music artists in the United States#Top 50 certified music artists (digital singles). Here are the detailed results:

MM	Title
2	0 TO 100 / THE CATCH UP
1	10 BANDS
1	6 GOD
1	9
2	ALL ME
2	BACK TO BACK
1	BEHIND BARZ (BONUS)
4	BEST I EVER HAD
2	BIG RINGS
1	BLEM
1	CHILDS PLAY
5	CONTROLLA
1	CREW LOVE
1	DIAMONDS DANCING (FEAT. FUTURE)
1	DIGITAL DASH
1	DO NOT DISTURB
1	DOING IT WRONG
3	ENERGY
4	FAKE LOVE
1	FANCY
1	FEEL NO WAYS
3	FIND YOUR LOVE
1	FIRE & DESIRE
6	FOREVER
1	FREE SMOKE
1	FROM TIME
1	FURTHEST THING
15	GOD'S PLAN
1	GRAMMYS
1	GYALCHESTER
4	HEADLINES
6	HOLD ON, WE'RE GOING HOME
10	HOTLINE BLING
2	HYFR (HELLYA FUCKING RIGHT)
1	HYPE
1	I'M GOIN IN
3	I'M UPSET
5	IN MY FEELINGS
5	JUMPMAN
1	JUNGLE
2	KNOW YOURSELF
2	LEGEND
1	MAKE ME PROUD
3	MARVINS ROOM
1	ME
1	MISS ME
7	NONSTOP
10	ONE DANCE (FEAT. WIZKID & KYLA)
3	OVER
3	PASSIONFRUIT
2	POP STYLE
2	PORTLAND
1	POUND CAKE/PARIS MORTON MUSIC 2
1	PRACTICE
1	REDEMPTION
1	RIGHT HAND
1	SCHOLARSHIPS
1	SIGNS
1	SNEAKIN'
6	STARTED FROM THE BOTTOM
1	STILL HERE
1	SUCCESSFUL
1	SUMMER SIXTEEN
5	TAKE CARE
1	TEENAGE FEVER
1	THE LANGUAGE
6	THE MOTTO
3	TOO GOOD
1	TOO MUCH
1	U WITH ME?
1	UP ALL NIGHT
5	WHAT
1	WITH YOU
1	WORST BEHAVIOR

—[AlanM1 (talk)]— 18:21, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Rkellytrappedinthecloset2007.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Rihanna

Why are Rihanna's claimed sales lower than her confirmed ones? 216.164.249.213 (talk) 17:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Her confirmed sales are incorrect, she should be removed from that section, RIAA has her American record sales at 23mm. 198.53.243.2 (talk) 14:24, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Lady gaga missing certification

Someone most add the missing certification of Lady gaga. In uk gold for Love game. In Canada Platinum for Hold my hand. In France a Platinum for Million Reasons. 151.66.39.126 (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

And in Germany the songs Million Reasons and Rain on me are now certified gold — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.39.126 (talk) 08:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

The song Is that alright has been certified silver in the Uk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 19:10, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

New Gold certification for Hold my hand in Belgium. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 14:38, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Why nobody adds the missing certification? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 11:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

 Added TheWikiholic (talk) 15:34, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 11:52, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

New Gold certification for Rain on me and Million Reasons in Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

New Silver certification for Look what I Found in Uk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 22:20, 23 December 2022 (UTC) In Italy the album Born this way gained is second Platinum certification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 15:46, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add the missing certification in Germany and Italy! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.6.141 (talk) 18:50, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

@TheWikiholic: can you add the missing certification please? And the close this talk cause is a bit long? Thank you

 Done-- TheWikiholic (talk) 05:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.20.99 (talk) 12:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

The Who

Why aren't the Who included on this list? They have sold over 100 million records worldwide. I would like for someone to tell me about this. 2601:407:4100:87A0:C984:185F:AB7D:9A56 (talk) 22:15, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Rihanna

Where is Rihanna on this list? 2A02:C7C:9027:5F00:3451:25DF:DEDA:9740 (talk) 13:09, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Beyoncé's Brasilian certification

Seems like Beyoncé and her team are doing major updates in Brasil, over an estimated 2 million units. 190.80.12.168 (talk) 21:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Updated with corresponding figure.

Pro-Musica Brasil certification update for Beyoncé;

Gold: I'm That Girl, Heated, Church Girl, Cozy, Freedom, Daddy Lessons, All Night, Bigger, Find Your Way Back, Bow Down, Before I Let Go, Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing, I Been On, Listen (Homecoming Live), Rocket, Haunted, I Care, 1+1

Platinum: Alien Superstar, Black Parade, Cuff It, Hold Up, I Was Here, Ego

2× Platinum: Break My Soul, Countdown, Dance for You, End of Time, Diva, Beautiful Liar, Savage

3× Platinum: Partition, Irreplaceable

Diamond: Best Thing I Never Had, Run the World (Girls), Love on Top, If I Were A Boy, Pretty Hurts, Formation. Everm4e (talk) 07:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 January 2023

Shouldn't Taylor Swift be moved to the top sales category now that she's surpassed 250,000,000 in certified sales? Seano287 (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: See the lead. The tables are organized and sorted by "claimed sales". – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 January 2023

Mariah has over 270M claimed sales, according to her own website https://mariahcarey.com/about-us/ she has over 200M albums sold, and certified singles has over 70M. Username2323432 (talk) 19:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

It would need an independent source to confirm that - artists and record labels are notorious for inflating their own sales. Richard3120 (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:49, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Question

Why is Cliff Richard not included? Billboard has him at 260 million sales. 2603:6011:2CF0:84F0:F9C8:5684:B12A:160E (talk) 04:28, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Seems he doesn't fit these criteria. Regards, --Apoxyomenus (talk) 13:54, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Christina Aguilera

I found a better source to support Aguilera's stats at 90 million records sold from Omaha World-Herald newspaper, but I can't edit the page. Can anyone did it? Thanks. Melketon (talk) 19:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Melketon: Done!--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 19:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Hey, do you know why Kylie Minogue is not included in this list? A lot of sources mention thay she has sold 80 million records. KARANSUTTA (talk) 06:14, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 February 2023

Christina Aguilera sold over 115M-150M records please update it!!! Jordanroopnarine (talk) 19:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:11, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Should we still count RIAA's physical single sales and digital single sales separately?

Harout72 has been counting the physical and digital single sales from RIAA separately, even though RIAA began combining singles certifications for most of their new certifications. Should we continue to do that if RIAA doesn't have separate entries for both physical certifications and digital certifications?— TheWikiholic (talk) 14:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

They do have separate entries for older songs - see "Bohemian Rhapsody" [1]. Richard3120 (talk) 15:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

They do have separate entries for some songs. For example, Michael Jackson's "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" has two entries for its physical and digital certification, even though it was last certified in 2022. But "Billie Jean" only has one entry (digital) for its certifications. And it is the same case for many artists. TheWikiholic (talk) 15:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Apoxyomenus, Moh8213 Do you have the certification files of any artists? I think Harout must have closed his Mediafire account or intentionally deleted all the files. TheWikiholic (talk) 03:24, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't. I had a few, but not for long after my computer was reset. Pinging Markus WikiEditor to see if he has files. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 23:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@TheWikiholic: Unfortunately I don't have any saved on my computer either, I asked him for some but I didn't save them.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 02:37, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

I am also unable to help. I had some of those files of some artists and bands on my old PC about two years ago, but unfortunately I no longer have any of them. Salvabl (talk) 19:58, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Here is the certification file of Whitney Houston from RIAA.

• I Wanna Dance With Somebody (1M physical units and 6m digital units unit)
• I'm Your Baby Tonight (500k physical 1m digital unit)
• I Will Always Love You (4M physical and 10m digital unit)
• I'm Every Woman (500k physical and 1m digital unit)
• I Have Nothing (500k physical and 2m digital units)
• The Greatest Love of All (500k physical and 2m digital unit)
• Saving All My Love For You (500k physical and 2m digital unit)
• How Will I Know (500k physical and 2m digital unit)
• You Give Good Love (500k physical and 1m digital unit)
• So Emotional (500k physical and 1m digital unit)
• It's Not Right But It's Okay (500k physical and 1M digital unit)
• When You Believe (500k physical and 1M digital units)

These are the Whitney Houston songs that are certified for both physical sales and digital sales. And out of these only one song "So Emotional" has different entries for both physical and digital sales. It looks like RIAA has combined its database with physical and digital certifications. And it means that as of today 9.5m units of physical single certifications of Whitney Houston songs are already included in her digital singles certifications. TheWikiholic (talk) 05:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, long time no see. Yes, I do have some of the files that Harout72 gave me while he was active. Indeed he was counting the the digital and physical sales separately (which is true), but it seems that RIAA is combining the physical and digital sales in some certain songs. Moh8213 (talk) 18:31, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Can you please upload those files here? And what shall we do with Whitney's certifications of physical sales which are already combined with her latest digital certifications? I think this is going to affect the overall certifications of many artists notably Michael Jackson, Elton John, Queen, and Mariah Cary. But we can only confirm this by either checking the RIAA database or the Files of Harout72. TheWikiholic (talk) 15:54, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Tbh I don't know how I can send it here. If you're still interested, I can send it to you via e-mail. Moh8213 (talk) 11:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes please TheWikiholic (talk) 17:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Missing information

I can no longer find the section detailing the criteria for an artist to be included (the needed share of certified sales to claimed sales). Is it still 70% for newer artists? 89.23.224.5 (talk) 09:12, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Taylor Swift is ahead of Mariah Carey

Why is Taylor Swift not ahead of Mariah Carey When swift's certified sales is over 250 million, and Carey's is only 211 million?

Can someond please make that fix.

I'm not just saying that is a big swiftie, but those are officially certified units. I thought that is what the list is organized by. Chelldog (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Please, Carey has sold far more than Taylor did. Streams does not equate to sales. The most Taylor sold is probably 150 million records in absolute numbers, 200 million is inflated claim. Mariah is actually closer to 250 million record with over 80% of her total certified records are non-streams. fidelovkurt 17:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

No Iron Maiden?

Maiden have sold over 130million albums world wide how come they do not appear? Tonedeaf101 (talk) 11:21, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Shakira

The Grammy Museum has a new exhibit showcasing Shakira’s career and claiming she has sold over 125 million records. I found a source from last year which sustains this claim as well.

[2]https://www.therichest.com/rich-powerful/numbers-dont-lie-the-highest-grossing-albums-of-shakira-ranked/amp/

[3]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrA5k6iaYAAQtsw?format=jpg&name=large 2806:2F0:91E0:86F2:209D:93F6:3DD9:2ABA (talk) 03:00, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Poor sourcing, not good enough. Binksternet (talk) 04:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I came here for this. She now have good sources claiming 125M records for her.

Shakira Turns 46 today: 5 interesting facts about the Colombian singer-songwriter Sebitagermanotta (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Lady Gaga

Why is Lady Gaga only at 124 million? I’m guessing her sales have not been updated yet, aren’t her sales like 170 million now? 2600:1700:4DC0:1140:1C2:B674:97C1:2AFB (talk) 05:32, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Lady Gaga discography

It even says on this same website that her sales are at 170 million. 2600:1700:4DC0:1140:1C2:B674:97C1:2AFB (talk) 05:34, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 April 2023

The Beatles let it be single was certified gold in 2021 for the sales of 100,000 and was never added to the Beatles certified sales. Steveharleywoof (talk) 17:39, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The person who loves reading (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 April 2023 (2)

Change the Beatles French sales from 3,990 million to 4,090 million as the Let It Be single was certified gold in France in 2021, but was never added. Steveharleywoof (talk) 20:19, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. When you say "change", to you mean to add it to the article? I'm quite confused. Actualcpscm (talk) 20:58, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 April 2023 (3)

Change the Beatles french sales from 3,990 million to 4,090 million since No one ever added the gold French certification for the Let It Be single for sales of 100,000 that was certified in 2021. Did i word it better this time ?. Steveharleywoof (talk) 21:09, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The question is more so where it should be inserted. There is no mention in the article of "The Beatles' french sales", so it's unclear what you want to change and how. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:50, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Ranking by Total certified units

I do not understand why is this list not ranked by total certified units from the official websites, but its rather ranked by claimed sales from random articles, and even then, the ranking is wrong. Mbaban (talk) 00:17, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Right? I don’t understand this, many artists’ sales are not updated. Lady Gaga’s sales reference is an article that is almost 10 years old. They need to update many of the artists’ sales!! Ethangaga0604 (talk) 04:16, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Coldplay Request

Hello, can you share Coldplay's certified file? Esambuu (talk) 08:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 April 2023

Change the Beatles French certifications from 3,990 million to 4,090 million because the you forgot to include The Let It Be single which was certified Gold in 2021.for the sales of 100,000. Steveharleywoof (talk) 17:19, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: I took the time to read through the entire article, and now I understand what you were referring to. Please be aware that you should engage with other editors and try to understand their concerns, instead of just opening duplicate requests.

Regarding the request, be aware of Note B: "Certification systems have been established periodically throughout the past half century; thus, certification databases are not able to cover all sales. Some (or all) records released and sold prior to a certification system's establishment year may not be found within the available searchable certification databases." Has this change been acknowledged by the relevant French certification database? If yes, do you have a source on that certification from their website? Actualcpscm (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes i do, its the same link ive been putting. Its from the SNEP which are an organization that protect the interests of the French record industry. They've been certifying albums and singles since 1973. The link shows that the let it be song has been certified gold in 2021 for sales of 100,000. This gold certification was never added to the Beatles certifications in the list of best-selling artists Wikipedia article. Steveharleywoof (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done TheWikiholic (talk) 07:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

? US.RIAA Figures is inaccurate data

This is inaccurate data, Doesn't match the latest RiAA data.. what happens?

Wiki. RIAA 2011 - MJ 177.3 million /// REAL. RIAA 2023 - MJ 89.0 million .... What's going on?

Salvabl is doing world wiki terrorism. he is modifying the data of each language Wikipedia with completely unfounded data. Please compare the RIAA figures in the wiki document with the latest RIAA data which is really accurate.

In particular, it corrects MJ's RIAA measurements to be significantly exaggerated. MJ USA sales volume in this document is based on RIAA 2013, which is completely different from RIAA 2023 data.

Wiki. RIAA 2011 - MJ 177.3 million /// REAL. RIAA 2023 - MJ 89.0 million .... What's going on?

Apr/2023 RIAA Figures - https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=top_tallies&ttt=TAA#search_section

(talk) 08:38, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Beatles file

Can we get a file with all the Beatles certifications ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steveharleywoof (talk • contribs) 03:53, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Salvabl is World wiki Terrorist, This Wiki RIAA 2011 - MJ 177.3 m / Real RIAA 2023 - MJ 89.0 million .... What's going on?

Salvabl is World wiki Terrorist, This Wiki RIAA 2011 - MJ 177.3 m / Real RIAA 2023 - MJ 89.0 million .... What's going on?

MJ USA sales volume in this document is based on RIAA 2013, which is completely different from RIAA 2023 data.

Wiki. RIAA 2011 - MJ 177.3 million /// REAL. RIAA 2023 - MJ 89.0 million .... What's going on?

Apr/2023 RIAA Figures - https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=top_tallies&ttt=TAA#search_section 39.114.157.194 (talk) 09:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

The 89M units in the above RIAA source that you provided only show the units of albums Jackson is certified within in the USA. The 177.3M includes albums+physical singles+digital singles+video. This is why The Beatles have 217.250M instead of 183M, and Elvis has 199 650M instead of 146.M in the same sources as you provided. TheWikiholic (talk) 20:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Billy Murray

Billy Murray is a singer who is said to have sold as many as 300,000,000 records in the early 1900s. He needs to be included 2600:1015:B120:3229:813A:FD25:4CCE:E022 (talk) 03:46, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Tina Turner

Hi. I would like to ask how many certified sales should Tina have for her to claim 180 million records (or even 200 million records sales)? Thank you! Loibird90 (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Loibird90: She's far away from that claim. By 2010 she had 32,973,694 and had only few certs since then. See here: Tina Turner's claimed figure.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

How many certified sales does she have to have for her to claim 180M or 200M? Loibird90 (talk) 01:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Mariah Carey (Japan)

Update 186.205.68.114 (talk) 02:11, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

25,5M certification 186.205.68.114 (talk) 02:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Mariah Carey (Brasil)

http://www.mariah-charts.com/chartdata/Brasil.htm 186.205.68.114 (talk) 02:30, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The Wjo

Where is the Who on this List? 2601:18C:8100:E030:80B1:2FC4:4A13:39B3 (talk) 13:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Billboard verified updated sales of Shakira

Change Shakira's sales from 75M to 95M. Here's billboard's article, dated 04/24/2023, as citation: https://www.billboard.com/music/latin/shakira-billboard-latin-woman-of-the-year-1235313382/ Rudramebarak (talk) 16:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• from 85M to 95M

Rudramebarak (talk) 16:12, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

 Already done to claimed sales as stated in the context. DreamRimmer (talk) 10:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Did anyone notice the nerf they put on Céline Dion?

As more than one knows Céline Dion sold much more than the 180 million to 200 million they put her, in fact both Mariah Carey and Céline Dion exceed 230 million if you add singles and albums of each, although Céline is the second best selling albums only surpassed by Madonna and Rihanna is pure streaming and singles sales.

See Chartmasters: https://chartmasters.org/best-selling-artists-albums-and-singles-of-all-time/16/ 181.122.150.214 (talk) 03:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 May 2023

Has Pearl Jam sold enough albums to be on this list ? Goodbyestranger (talk) 19:46, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Please start a topic on the talk page so that you can have a discussion with other editors; edit requests are for requesting specific edits in the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:18, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

elton john

elton johns tally in the states has not change in an age cold heart has been cert at over two million not been counted plus with fwybr tour sales of gh and streaming of his songs must be 4 million plus 121.75.198.109 (talk) 09:02, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Why is Kylie Minogue not on this list?

She has sold 80 million records. KARANSUTTA (talk) 22:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Miley Cyrus

Why is she the only relevant female artist missing here? There are people here with 25m certified units. she has far more than that. arround 100m? can anyone fix this 2A0C:5A80:250B:5900:B9AD:4B77:CBA3:DFFF (talk) 15:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

German certs

First and foremost, I’d like to thank everyone who contributed to this article, though I noticed that BVMI has re-certified tons of old records throughout Q1 and most of Q2 2023, and it seems that some artists’ record sales in this list aren’t upgraded with the recent updated certifications provided by BVMI, if I wanted to, I’d have done those upgrades by myself but unfortunately I don’t have time. For an easy layout you can check the monthly data reports made by BVMI here. Moh8213 (talk) 17:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Lady Gaga 170 million records

The US President’s Committee on the Arts and the Humanities website now cites Lady Gaga's sales as 170 million. Her current certified total is over 163 million so this is a better estimate than the outdated 124 million one.

Cited here: https://www.imls.gov/pcah/lady-gaga and here: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/04/13/president-biden-announces-key-appointments-to-boards-and-commissions-23/

Older links with the same total: https://web.archive.org/web/20220705193602/https://www.attitude.co.uk/article/lady-gaga-became-singer-after-multiple-failed-acting-auditions/19231/ SpearsRR (talk) 23:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

And must be added the new certification in Poland and in Italy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.21.148.176 (talk) 07:17, 12 May 2023 (UTC) New certification in Germany for Love game e Always remember as this way. Both gold. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.190.216.146 (talk) 17:26, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Lady Gaga 170 million records sold should be updated. The US government is an much betteer source than most of the sources used for other artists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.85.28.146 (talk) 17:45, 2 June 2023 (UTC) Always remember as this way is now certified double Platinum in italy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.190.216.146 (talk) 14:37, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

In the uk, shallow is now 5 platinum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.190.216.146 (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Mariah Carey Japan

Update 21,750,000 Chacravartim (talk) 00:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Billy Murray needs to be added

All sources (which originate from early newspapers) say he sold at least 300 million records. Jon19939 (talk) 01:38, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Lady Gaga update

Why Gaga was not update? Even her own page says 170 million 177.39.93.176 (talk) 21:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Why is Taylor swift not ahead of Mariah carey?

It says Taylor swift has certified sales of over 250 million units, but Mariah Carey's sales is 211 million. So why is Taylor swift not ahead if Mariah Carey? Chelldog (talk) 23:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Ariana Grande update

This week Grande received a major certification update from ARIA. Is there a way to take her record sales to 100 million now? It would be great to get a feedback. Best regards. Mirrored7 (talk) 18:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Artists by reputed vs. certified sales

Should we continue to rank artists by estimated sales, or should we instead categorize them by certified sales? This is not to discredit The Beatles, but there appears to be a significant discrepancy between these two values. The certified sales seem to account for the key markets, which is especially important considering that the majority e.g. of Beatles record sales likely occurred before 2000, predating the emergence of new markets. 2A02:C7C:EC31:4200:9D09:BCDB:BCBF:DAA8 (talk) 09:30, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Where is Johnny Mathis?

His wiki page even claims in the second paragraph: Mathis is the third best-selling artist of the 20th century, selling 360 million records worldwide. 2601:648:8100:31B:6C2B:42D8:2A48:5925 (talk) 02:48, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

But somehow, worldwide, he's less famous than MJ.84.54.71.149 (talk) 03:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Julio Iglesias

According to the Guinness World Record, Julio Iglesias has sold over 250 million copies as of 2006 Source. Since certifications minimums are no longer a requirement, can this be updated? Erick (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

A follow-up, I found a source that states 150 million copies which I think is more reasonable and have updated sales. This puts him about around the same range as Frank Sinatra. Erick (talk) 22:31, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 August 2023

Add missing Police French certifications, the 1990 greatest hits was certified double Platinum for the sales of 600,000 in 1991 and Zenyatta Mondatta was re-released in 1990 on CD and was certified gold in 1991 for 100,000. The Police french certified sales should go from 3,340 million to 4,040 million. Carlyvain (talk) 04:17, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Can you please provide all the certifications of “police” that take their total certification from 3.340 million to 4.040 million with their source? It is not clear whether the above-mentioned certifications are already added or not as it is old and the file containing the added certification is not available anymore. TheWikiholic (talk) 05:41, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Mariah Carey

Carey is closing quickly the gap between her certified records and total sales claims. Is it time to move her to 250 MILLION Club? if not, what threshold should she reach to move her into that category? fidelovkurt 12:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

What are the editors' problems with Lady Gaga?

Even the smallest changes in other artists are added minus Lady Gaga's. The White House itself (which should be a more relevant source than most of those used to sustain the sales of other artists) puts it in the league of 170 million records. However, even with the frequent request of other users, sales are not updated. My question is direct to The Wikiholic, Everm4e and Apoxyomenus: if you don't like it, give the edition of the page to people who are impartial and will put your passions aside. We all know that you inflate the sales of the artists you prefer, but subtracting Lady Gaga's sales just by not liking her is not the right thing, especially when she meets all the necessary requirements.

So, one last time: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/04/13/president-biden-announces-key-appointments-to-boards-and-commissions-23/ 177.39.93.141 (talk) 16:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC) And many recent certification are not on the list. No one never add them — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.21.138.142 (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Record sales are, these days, heavily streaming-generated; that’s why artists like Katy Perry and Lady Gaga have lower claimed sales, even though their certified sales are a bit higher. TheWikiholic (talk) 07:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand when you mention the streams. However, there are some considerations you need to make:

- 170 million records sold represent Lady Gaga's so-called pure sales.

- First, because this goes against the claimed sales before streaming became standard in the music industry. In January 2016, Billboard reported that Gaga had already sold 27 million albums and 146 million singles, therefore 173 million records. Source: https://www.billboard.com/pro/lady-gaga-signs-caa/ Note that Billboard explicitly uses the term “sold” not “equivalent sales” or otherwise and that this information is 7 years old. According to the article's definitions: “Gold/Platinum certifications issued after 2016, especially on singles, are in some cases more than 50% streaming generated”. Well, we're using an earlier period.

- Second, because Lady Gaga's own team has already revealed the numbers of copies generated by streamings: 275 million in song consumption as stated in the author information section in the book “Channel Kindness: Stories of Kindness and Community” released by her in 2020 (numbers of this year). Source: https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Kindness-Stories-Community/dp/1250245583

- Third, because in a press release released last year for the Chromatica Ball Tour in London, it updated the numbers in 2022: 393 million in song consumption. Source: https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2022/march/lady-gaga-announces-two-concert-dates-at-tottenham-hotspur-stadium/

- Fourth: Lady Gaga would have more than 75% of sales with certifications.

- Last: in fact Lady Gaga's claimed sales are even greater than 170 million, so this number is reasonable. 177.39.94.215 (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Record sales for almost every act on this list are a mix of albums, singles and equivalent units generated from streams.

Lady Gaga 170 million sales sources:

V Magazine - https://vmagazine.com/article/v-celebrates-the-15th-anniversary-of-lady-gagas-debut-album-the-fame/#:~:text=With%2013%20Grammy%20awards%20under,t%20a%20certified%20pop%20icon.

Attitude magazine - https://www.attitude.co.uk/culture/film-tv/lady-gaga-became-singer-after-multiple-failed-acting-auditions-297191/

White House (dot gov) - https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/04/13/president-biden-announces-key-appointments-to-boards-and-commissions-23/

The current figure of 124 million is likely too low for her pure digital single sales alone. 170 million is more than applicable considering the sources alongside certified units within 5 million of the total. SpearsRR (talk) 20:46, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

The Doors

The single Riders on the Storm CERTIFIED DATE: 15.09.23 Gold, 400,000 RELEASE DATE: 14.11.04

Total UK: 3.040 million not 2.840 million 79.31.56.10 (talk) 06:22, 26 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.31.56.10 (talk)

The Doors

The single Riders on the Storm CERTIFIED DATE: 15.09.23 Gold, 400,000 RELEASE DATE: 14.11.04

Total UK: 3.040 million not 2.840 million 79.31.56.10 (talk) 14:22, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The Doors single

The single Riders on the Storm CERTIFIED DATE: 15.09.23 Gold, 400,000 RELEASE DATE: 14.11.04

We need to change the figure of 2,840 million to 3,040 million.

Total UK: 3.040 million not 2.840 million 79.31.56.10 (talk) 01:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 August 2023

177.39.94.215 (talk) 20:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Change Lady Gaga sales from 124 million to 170 million (please read the talk page to understand that this figures represents the pure sales, without adding streamings and note that Billboard article is from 2016)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 August 2023

ABBA, Fleetwood Mac, Genesis and Linkin Park are no longer active. 109.120.204.227 (talk) 06:22, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

missing artits

Miley Cyrus alone has more than 100M units in the US only certified. https://www.riaa.com/gold-%20platinum/?tab_active=default-award&se=miley+cyrus#search_section can anyoane please add here already? 83.37.169.40 (talk) 07:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Beyonce figures

How did Beyonce come from 100 million records sold last year to 200 million this year? Did she sold 100 million from 2022-2023? Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 18:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

<nowiki>Just randomly came across this. She is also in the wrong category, the source states nearly 200 million, which means it is below that number and should be moved to 120 - 199. Vestigium Leonis (talk) 12:42, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Beyonce's placement in the 200 million group was discussed at length. Please reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_best-selling_music_artists/Archive_45

The Rolling Stones?

200 million sales 92.19.72.28 (talk) 06:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 October 2023

George Michael sold over 120 million records in his solo career, earning a spot in the 120-190 category. Also, many sources include his Wham! record sales in his sales figures, which would bring his total sales to 150+. Southport1639 (talk) 13:51, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Read the big notice at the top of this talk page. Thanks, Seawolf35 (talk - email) 00:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Ariana Grande

I opened a page on this topic a few months ago. Unfortunately, I didn't get an answer. Grande's certified sales are over 150 million, so surely she must be eligible for over 100 million record sales? All it takes is a reliable source, so she can be included in that range? Does it have to be current too? Mirrored7 (talk) 14:52, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Madonna, 400 million?

https://people.com/madonna-is-still-biggest-selling-female-recording-artist-of-all-time-8382770 Copy Editor (talk) 19:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

According to Guinnes Record Madonna has sold 400Million Records worldwide. Jjavier1978 (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/best-selling-female-recording-artist Jjavier1978 (talk) 20:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Madonna should be at 400 million with the new Guinness — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fstar042346 (talk • contribs) 01:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Guinness is saying that Madonna "claimed that she had sold over 400 million records", not that she actually sold that much. We have much better sources citing confirmed sales plus industry-standard estimates to fill in the gaps for countries that don't report units. In this case Guinness is not reliable. See WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. The 300 million number stands. Binksternet (talk) 19:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Binksternet Would the same apply to Julio Iglesias as well just to confirm? Not arguing of course, just want to make sure. Erick (talk) 20:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Right. The award given by Guinness to Iglesias is not as reliable as certified sales figures plus industry-standard estimates. Binksternet (talk) 20:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Guy Lombardo?

I don't know much about this topic but maybe Guy Lombardo should be mentioned on this list? These two pages say he sold between 100 and 300 million records but I don't know what their sources are:

• https://www.allmusic.com/artist/guy-lombardo-mn0000546692#biography
• https://canadianmusichalloffame.ca/inductee/guy-lombardo/

CalebBill (talk) 01:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Usa

Something is absolutely wrong with the US numbers. How can musicians sold 250 million records in the us and then 1,5 million un Japan or 15 million in UK. The method to analyze the records sold in the us seems pretty flawed. Statistically, it doesn’t make sens. 2806:102E:18:37AE:D003:C21E:7490:4DBC (talk) 21:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Depeche Mode - 98 million

Hey! Here a study about Depeche Mode’s sales during their hole career. Should be added - https://chartmasters.org/depeche-mode-albums-and-songs-sales/?fbclid=IwAR3XGo0i3dm2v3tlqwn0tiVMSWfiTcW35U7enGOOgb2HIY8-31norU6amjg_aem_ASJgpwXEk10RL5Ffnqu8v0w5V51x09gF3oR2GLon5rcFHKbbuN3SrOVTRNLd_9rpzjc 2A00:F41:1890:7AFA:BC26:9D75:CB78:650F (talk) 16:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

This website includes streaming sales, while this article includes only sales from albums, video albums and singles. If the informations on ChartMasters are correct, Depache Mode would be at 75 Million. Matheushpdutra (talk) 20:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Is this correct?

For Rihanna, it says "Total certified units" = 361.8 million, and "Claimed sales" = 250 million or 230 million. Is this correct? I mean, how can claimed sales be actually less than certified sales? 2A00:23C8:7B09:FA01:AD2A:5B8D:55B7:93D6 (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes and the evidence says that she has sold 55 million records in the UK. This is nearly twice as many as claimed for the Beatles and seems ... unlikely. 90.203.124.32 (talk) 18:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Change Lady Gaga figures from 124 Million to 170 million

Matheushpdutra (talk) 19:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Just to put in discussion:

There are some considerations the editors need to make:

- 170 million records sold represent Lady Gaga's so-called pure sales.

- First, because this goes against the claimed sales before streaming became standard in the music industry. In January 2016, Billboard reported that Gaga had already sold 27 million albums and 146 million singles, therefore 173 million records. Source: https://www.billboard.com/pro/lady-gaga-signs-caa/ Note that Billboard explicitly uses the term “sold” not “equivalent sales” or otherwise and that this information is 7 years old. According to the article's definitions: “Gold/Platinum certifications issued after 2016, especially on singles, are in some cases more than 50% streaming generated”. Well, we're using an earlier period.

- Second, because Lady Gaga's own team has already revealed the numbers of copies generated by streamings: 275 million in song consumption as stated in the author information section in the book “Channel Kindness: Stories of Kindness and Community” released by her in 2020 (numbers of this year). Source: https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Kindness-Stories-Community/dp/1250245583

- Third, because in a press release released last year for the Chromatica Ball Tour in London, it updated the numbers in 2022: 393 million in song consumption. Source: https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2022/march/lady-gaga-announces-two-concert-dates-at-tottenham-hotspur-stadium/

- Fourth: Lady Gaga would have more than 75% of sales with certifications.

- Fifth : in fact Lady Gaga's claimed sales are even greater than 170 million, so this number is reasonable.

- Last: Other musicians figures are updated almost monthly, but no update was made for Gaga in years. Is there any explanation for this? By the way, her own Wiki page cites 170 Million Records. Matheushpdutra (talk) 19:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I support Lady Gaga's claim sales upgrade to 170 million as reasonable. TJ 23:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Why nobody upgraded the sales? It's clear that as listed now it is uncorrect. LilTrilly (talk) 13:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Seems like the editors just don’t like her Matheushpdutra (talk) 15:38, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Sir Cliff Ruched OBE needs to be on the list

with 300 million sales Sir Cliff Richard should be on this list. It is insulting he is not 122.150.182.114 (talk) 09:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, quite surprising to see this omission. Rwilkin (talk) 03:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 November 2023

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 21:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Which request are you referring to? Matheushpdutra (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 December 2023

Adjusting Lady Gaga's record sales figures is warranted to reflect a more accurate estimate. The current listing of 124 million records sold should be updated to 170 million records, aligning with various sources. Billboard's 2016 report indicated 27 million albums and 146 million singles, totaling 173 million records, emphasizing pure sales. Lady Gaga's team disclosed streaming numbers of 275 million in 2020 and an update to 393 million in 2022 during the Chromatica Ball Tour press release. This proposed adjustment provides a conservative and reasonable estimate, considering the music industry's shift toward streaming. For consistency, accuracy, and industry standards, the article should be updated to state Lady Gaga's record sales as ranging from 120 million to 199 million records, suggested 170 million. Matheushpdutra (talk) 23:14, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The ref note for number 5 below appears to be the White House for some reason. Please clarify the correct references for this claim.  Spintendo  04:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Eminem

Eminem deos have claimed to have 300-400 million sales so i think he was to low when is saw this list LeoDeCoster (talk) 14:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2023

Change the number of Taylor Swift certified units in Mexico from the current 640,000 units to 1.48 million units, as the current certified sales figure more than doubles the previous figure.

Taylor Swift's certifications in Mexico can be viewed on AMPROFON's official website by typing "Taylor Swift" in the artist field. https://amprofon.com.mx/es/pages/certificaciones.php

Please note that certifications in Mexico work differently from those in the US and UK, so consult the AMPROFON Wikipedia page to understand how they work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asociación_Mexicana_de_Productores_de_Fonogramas_y_Videogramas EdRomo13 (talk) 16:00, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template.  Spintendo  23:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

An Update Is Needed To The List

2. Michael Jackson 339,438,000 3. Elvis 321,822,000 4. Queen 280,974,000 5. Madonna 248,680,000 6. The Rolling Stones 244,849,000 7. Pink Floyd 238,857,000 8. Frank Sinatra 230,326,000 9. Eminem 209,430,000 10. Elton John 209,348,000

Please see link below. There have been some updates to the best selling music artist list. https://chartmasters.org/best-selling-artists-of-all-time/ Tamparuth (talk) 01:28, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Chart Masters is not a reliable source. Erick (talk) 02:26, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Madonna has sold 400M copies

According to The Guinness World Records, Madonna has already sold more tha 400 million records. [4]https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/best-selling-female-recording-artist 83.37.49.66 (talk) 14:31, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Rihanna's numbers don't make sense!

Someone needs to check the figures on Rihanna! Her certified sales seem way too high and if they are true then why is she the only artist whose claimed sales are LOWER than her certified sales? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.29.21.190 (talk) 09:02, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Streaming units I think Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 23:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Small Edits

I noticed that Nirvana's total has a slash (/) instead of a point (.) as a separator. I can't edit it so I just ask that it ba changed by someone who can. I named this as "Small Edits" so that this can be a topic for other edits as well that users like me notice but can't edit. Derfboy (talk) 21:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done @Derfboy: Next time, you should submit an edit request instead (like the one above) so that other editors will notice the suggestion more quickly. Liu1126 (talk) 00:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for both completing this and letting me know how to do it the right way. I really do appreciate it! Derfboy (talk) 04:26, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The Jackson 5 / The Jacksons

The Jackson brothers are supposed to have sold more than 100 million records, and should be somewhere in this list. 151.20.180.194 (talk) 15:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The Jackson 5 / The Jacksons

The Jackson brothers are supposed to have sold more than 100 million records, and should be somewhere in this list. 151.20.180.194 (talk) 15:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Whitney Houston

Whitney Houston has 163,9 million certified units that is 74,5% for 220 million sales claimed so can we move her numbers up? Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 23:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The recent certification of Whitney is mostly streaming generated and cant be consider as sales TheWikiholic (talk) 16:46, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Purported sale certification on Fernando covered by Cher

@Uncleangelo:
Regarding Special:Diff/1193804532
If I not wrong, that info you had added is incorrect. One of your erroneous edit was reverted Special:Diff/1193804742.
Had search BPI database so far only came with original ABBA song. Thanks. --- Cat12zu3 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The database does this sometimes, so you need to search by the date of certification (29.12.2023). Here is the link to the certification. https://www.bpi.co.uk/award/2261-6604-1 Thank you. Uncleangelo (talk) 03:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Madonna - 400 million sales

Madonna is re-certified by Guinness world records for 400 million sales. This should be updated in all Wikipedia pages. 2A02:2149:8B34:9000:ED86:BE13:3F07:F772 (talk) 07:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Lady gaga certification in Spain

Why you added Madonna and Britney certification in Spain but not Lady gaga certifications? LilTrilly (talk) 09:36, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Singles certified gold: Just dance, Born this way, Stupid love, I'll never love again, Bloody Mary, Telephone, Alejandro, Applause.

Platinum certification for Million reasons, Bad romance, Rain on me and Poker face. Song 2x platinum Always remember us this way. And Shallow became 5x platinum. LilTrilly (talk) 11:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

What is the problem? You added the Spanish certifications for other artists but not for Lady gaga — Preceding unsigned comment added by LilTrilly (talk • contribs) 11:30, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Here the sources: Shallow: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA+%2F+BRADLEY+COOPER&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=SHALLOW&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Always remember us this way: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=ALWAYS+REMEMBER+US+THIS+WAY&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Poker face: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=POKER+FACE&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Rain on me: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA+%2F+ARIANA+GRANDE&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=RAIN+ON+ME&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Bad romance: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=BAD+ROMANCE&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Million reasons: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=MILLION+REASONS&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Stupid love: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=STUPID+LOVE&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

I'll never love again: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=I%27LL+NEVER+LOVE+AGAIN+%28EXTENDED+VERSION%29&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Born this way: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=BORN+THIS+WAY&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Just dance: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA+%2F+COLBY+O%27DONIS&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=JUST+DANCE&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Bloody mary: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=BLOODY+MARY&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Telephone: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA+%2F+BEYONCE&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=TELEPHONE&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Alejandro: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=ALEJANDRO&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Applause: https://www.elportaldemusica.es/awards/index?AwardsSearch%5Bartist%5D=LADY+GAGA&AwardsSearch%5Btitle%5D=APPLAUSE&AwardsSearch%5Byear%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bweek%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Bgroup%5D=&AwardsSearch%5Baward%5D=

Now you can add to the list. LilTrilly (talk) 16:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Why nobody adds all the Spain certifications? And Lady Gaga got a new certification in Italy too. LilTrilly (talk) 15:50, 16 February 2024 (UTC)