Talk:List of unarmed African Americans killed by law enforcement officers in the United States

Rename "African American" to Black

Hi, as I mentioned in the deletion discussion, sources usually seem to refer to "Black" rather than "African American" victims when they discuss the topic of US police shooting unarmed Black people. The difference is being born in the US. Amadou Diallo was shot unarmed. He was a Black Guinean immigrant, so not African American. Wouldn't it make sense to rename this list to "Black" and include such cases? Police don't usually know the ones they shoot, so I'd imagine non-African American Black people are as concerned about these statistics as African Americans. ‎⠀Trimton⠀‎‎ 07:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment - The source you cite is more nuanced than "the difference is being born in the US", and even interviews a Jamaican-born man who says, "I have taken on this label of African American because of where I live." The first sentence of this article, itself, wikilinks to African American - which has (or had, as of the moment I'm writing this comment, at least) this to say in its WP:LEDE about the term:

The term African American generally denotes descendants of enslaved Africans who are from the United States, while some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify (themselves) or be identified (by others) as African-American.

In other words, it isn't so straightforward. Danazar (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, you're right and apologies for my unnuanced definition. It seems though that Black is the more inclusive term, and that virtually all African Americans should identify as Black? ‎⠀Trimton⠀‎‎ 18:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Is there similar list on Wikipedia?

Is there a Wikipage listing all white unarmed people who were killed by LEO? Or would the list be too long to even entertain? And is there a list of Asian, Latino, Arabian unarmed people being killed by LEO somewhere to be found on Wikipedia? Maybe they are not worth as much as black people according to Wikipedia community? 96.20.197.194 (talk) 04:41, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I created this article because there did not seem to be such a list online despite its political salience and importance, particularly since other lists were either incomplete or inaccurate and listed all Black people killed by police, both unarmed and armed. A broader list would be noteworthy and worth creating. OctaviusIII (talk) 15:08, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

They don't want a list of actual innocent people who are killed by police, regardless of race. Wikipedia pushes a very liberal narrative and any attempt to insert truth and common sense into the articles will be blocked.

How about we also have a list of black people who are killed by other black people. That is the real problem instead of pushing the narrative that police are going around just shooting black people for no reason.

If you go by actual interactions with police then unarmed white people are more likely to be shot and killed by police. Wikipedia wouldn't want people putting that truth out there though. 174.96.203.119 (talk) 15:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Well said. The fact that they use a far-left opinion site like “newsone” as a source in many of these articles further confirm their bias. Bjoh249 (talk) 03:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be worth it for you to compile and publish an article, let's say starting in 2024, of the unarmed civilians killed by law enforcement in the United States and include their racial identity. It took my wife and I about 10 hours to research, compile, and format this article in its original form; do it to it. OctaviusIII (talk) 19:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This list for African-Americans is highly relevant for #BlackLivesMatter, but what about BIPOC in general, Latinx, etc.? In general, are there reliable external sources for this data and related data for Latinx, etc.? Fookault (talk) 10:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Darren Boykin

>https://apnews.com/article/texas-lawsuits-cab807b3c8bf8f901b998ca895a53002 >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0f6sUuuPc >https://thegrio.com/2021/09/02/texas-police-arrest-video-released-boykin-family-lawsuit/ --91.54.27.221 (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Selection criteria

Hi all,

This article previously had no clear selection criteria.

I have added a slightly-altered version of the boilerplate text used on all Lists of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, which reads (for example):

This is a list of people reported killed by non-military law enforcement officers in the United States in May 2023, whether in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method. The listing documents the occurrence of a death, making no implications regarding wrongdoing or justification on the part of the person killed or officer involved. Killings are arranged by date of the incident that caused death. Different death dates, if known, are noted in the description. The table below lists 41 people.

This is a dynamic list and may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by adding missing items with reliable sources.

I'm not totally sure how this text came into being, but I believe @Primefac: (hi!) had something to do with its implementation and the standardization of those lists.

The boilerplate message I added to this article is:

This is a list of African Americans reported killed while unarmed by non-military law enforcement officers in the United States. Events are listed whether they took place in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method. The listing documents the occurrence of a death, making no implications regarding wrongdoing or justification on the part of the person killed or officer involved. Killings are arranged by date of the incident that caused death. Different death dates, if known, are noted in the description.

This is a dynamic list and may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by adding missing items with reliable sources.

Because of this boilerplate message, I have re-added previously-removed deaths by car, as I believe they qualify for inclusion according the above text.

Please discuss revisions to the selection criteria here. Wracking ^💬 00:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Philando Castile case?

How exactly are we defining "unarmed"? Philando Castile told the police he was carrying a firearm, although it's disputed whether he'd actually taken it out of his pocket when the cop decided to open fire. Muzilon (talk) 11:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• I removed Castile from the list. According to this NBC News source, he told police he was armed just prior to being shot. Exclusion from this list doesn't necessarily justify the law enforcement killing. However, to be included on such a list, it must meet the list's defined criteria. Minnemeeples (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

It sounds like a case of "suicide by cop" and there's another wki list for that. Fookault (talk) 10:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there also a wiki article dealing with white people killed by law enforcement?

And if not why the bias favouring black Americans? 2003:DA:C715:3100:F554:3342:BF86:606E (talk) 01:13, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to create one if you wish. GGOTCC (talk) 23:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The focus is on unarmed civilians, so if you have a credible external source for such statistics, by race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., do let us know. Fookault (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I created this article because there is an active political discussion in the United States regarding police use of force against unarmed people who identify as Black or African-American - hence chants like "Hands Up Don't Shoot" - and there was no centralized repository of relevant cases despite that political and cultural salience. This led to blurring of the lines of "unarmed" and "armed" cases and confusion in the political and cultural discourse. Now, there is definitely a case to be made that a list of all such incidents, regardless of race, should have such a page. It took me about 6-10 hours to compile and create this page's initial version; if you have the time to create a similar page then it would be a welcome addition to Wikipedia. Maybe take 2 hours a day for a week? A couple of weekend afternoons? OctaviusIII (talk) 15:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Without unnecessarily espousing one point of view, there is an extensive body of academic research in the humanities and social sciences, not just media hype, which tells us very plainly: that a certain level of racial bias, prejudice or flat-out racism, often results in serious bodily harm and death, for people of color, in their encounters with law enforcement. (Ruth Wilson Gilmore calls it "state-sanctioned and/or extralegal production and exploitation of group-differentiated vulnerability to premature death".)

I really recommend reading widely, especially from the great minds, philosophers and activists of our time, to learn more about what ails us, what makes our society sick, and how we can each do our bit to be part of the cure... Fookault (talk) 09:09, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

List of Police killed by African Americans

Where is that page? 2601:47:101:B480:9995:B8C6:AF0D:C02A (talk) 13:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Make it yourself if you think its that important buddy. --A Cynical Idealist (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Kathryn Johnston and Aiyana Jones

Is there any reason these two shouldn't be included?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Kathryn_Johnston https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Aiyana_Jones

Raoulduke25 (talk) 22:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Aiyana Jones is already included and Kathryn Johnston had a revolver. Hope this helps. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 00:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, thank you. That definitely makes sense. Raoulduke25 (talk) 11:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Re-ordering of tables into most-recent-first

I think it's important to have the most recent information at the top of each table, by default? Can anyone help to re-order the info manually? I've done 2024 and 2023 so far. Quite laborious - why isn't there an easy task editor widget for this? Fookault (talk) 10:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Split

This page for this list is becoming very long. WP:SIZESPLIT is recommended at 15000 words but we are at 36000+ words. Perhaps we can restructure and follow the example of List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States or Lists_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I also feel that this page should be restructured somehow, since the most recent entries (2024) are wayyy down at the bottom. Any other ideas? Fookault (talk) 11:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the Lists_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States article is a good example, with this page becoming a combination of index and statistical information across years and time: number killed, median age, etc. The other option, List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States, is a cumbersome combination of list of articles and list of lists without adding much information. OctaviusIII (talk) 19:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

That's also a great idea, to include some analysis of the list(s) contents on the page somehow...

What about a split into eras, e.g. these four?

• a list for Jim Crow period (19th century to early 20th)
• another list for Civil Rights period (pre- and post-Civil Rights, 1940s-1970s)
• pre-2000 list: eighties and nineties ("hiphop era")
• 2000s to the present day (BLM era) ?

Fookault (talk) 09:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

"Unarmed" qualifier not followed in multiple instances...remove from title.

There are dozens of entries on this page that mention the individual killed as possessing a knife, gun, or other weapon, with no information to the contrary. The page has become a de facto list of all Black individuals killed by law enforcement, not just unarmed ones. Suggest removing 'unarmed' from the title. KnnNike (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

This has already been brought up at AfD:

• Delete "unarmed" is an overused word. This is a clear example of POV pushing. Some of these indviduals have weapons on them, some of them their having weapons is disputed, and some were in the process of using things like a vehicle as a weapon when killed which makes them clearly not unarmed by any measure. Some people have even used phrases like "unarmed knife wieder" which makes no sense at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment these seem like issues that can be resolved with editing and discussion (e.g. defining what is "unarmed" and which incidents belong on the list). Deleting would be WP:BATHWATER Qwaiiplayer (talk) 13:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Exactly, let's stick to the actual WP:DEL-REASONs. ‎⠀Trimton⠀‎‎ 10:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
• Concur with above comments; if there is ambiguity or disagreement about what "unarmed" means, that is enough to impact inclusion / exclusion of a particular incident (for example), the appropriate place to resolve the ambiguity is the article's Talk page -- not a proposal for deletion. Vague undefined allegations of "POV pushing" are likewise unhelpful to this discussion. Danazar (talk) 15:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

"removing 'unarmed' from the title" makes the article non-notable and eligible for deletion. Consensus was to remove the problematic entries. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. The main relevance of the information is that the victims are 'unarmed', while the police response to armed offenders is arguably justifiable. Fookault (talk) 11:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Search for details of Leroy Martin shooting by Pond Valley PD, USA

Help will be appreciated with finding the details of the fatal shooting of Leroy Martin by Pond Valley PD, USA. The exact date, age of Leroy Martin, and precise location of Pond Valley, are unknown. The shooting is reconstructed as a case study in Jon J. Nordby's textbook, Scientific Foundations of Crime Scene Reconstruction: Introducing Method to Mayhem (entire chapter 6).

Martin was surrounded by eight officers, responding to a phone call about a "young black man walking suspiciously down the middle of the street talking to himself". After Martin ignored police instructions and kept walking, he was shot twice. An internal review of the incident declared the shooting justified. However, Nordby's reconstruction of the scene found that police claims of Martin threatening officers with a broken bottle were not corroborated by the forensic facts.

That Sunday morning, Martin was on his way home after staying over at a friend's place. At that hour, there was no traffic in the area. He was in school and an aspiring dancer, with no criminal record or prior incidents involving the police.

And finally: Leroy Martin had been totally deaf since birth. Fookault (talk) 00:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

You might find more help at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Black_Lives_Matter. This talkpage is only for discussing changes to the list. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 19:38, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Noted. I would like to include Leroy Martin in this list, but essential details (year, location) are still absent (for now)... Fookault (talk) 09:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Cocaine & enlarged heart =/= law enforcement

@Ludus56 You stated that I removed Keenan Anderson for an "uncited reason", despite me presenting a citation of an NPR article in my edit summary. The NPR article clearly states: died from the effects of an enlarged heart and cocaine use, the Los Angeles County medical examiner-coroner said.

By contrast, the outdated USA Today article you cited states: "some manner of medical emergency occurred," and Anderson was pronounced dead at the hospital. A preliminary toxicology report from police found cocaine and cannabis in Anderson's body, according to Moore. The coroner's office has not yet ruled on the cause and manner of Anderson's death.

Neither source supports addition to this article. If your issue is that NPR is not a reliable source, CBS and the LA Times have also referenced the autopsy report as stating the death was caused by an enlarged heart and cocaine use. KiharaNoukan (talk) 16:15, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• The CBS article clearly states "conducted energy device [CED] use" as contributing to the cause of death. Drmies (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No it does not. It says "Death determined hours after restraint and conducted energy device [CED] use" KiharaNoukan (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Yes it does. Full quote: "In a press release, the coroner announced that they had determined the cause of death of 31-year-old Keenan Darnell Anderson as effects of cardiomyopathy (enlarged heart) and cocaine use (death determined hours after restraint and conducted energy device [CED] use)." Drmies (talk) 16:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
      • What does "determined hours after" mean to you? Is that synonymous with caused? Why isn't it reported that way by RS? KiharaNoukan (talk) 16:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
        • Why don't you ask the coroner? Drmies (talk) 17:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
          • You're making the claim, care to back it up? How about we ask RS, and see how they present this, whether it's a reference to chronology or whether it's the cause of death? LA Times in their own words, mentions: An enlarged heart and cocaine use have been identified as the causes of death for Keenan Anderson, a 31-year-old man who died hours after being shocked multiple times with a Taser by Los Angeles police, according to a new autopsy report. Do you have a single source you can reference stating the opposite? KiharaNoukan (talk) 17:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
            • What's with the WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude? I don't need a source to state the opposite: deaths can be caused by more than one reason. But I'm not going to continue spending my time answering your specious questions, asked rudely. Drmies (talk) 17:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

              It's not "battleground attitude", and I'm not asking "specious questions, asked rudely", unless you're mixing up who said that snarky "Why don't you ask the coroner?", which doesn't exactly seem like a good faith question. It's a request for you to follow policy on WP:RS. This article is titled List of unarmed African Americans killed by law enforcement officers. No RS claim that he was killed by law enforcement officers (they don't even use the word "killed", instead saying "died"), and RS instead makes clear that the autopsy has shown the causes of death to be linked to his enlarged heart and cocaine use. KiharaNoukan (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

            It feels to me like the inclusion criteria would be conservative on this front. While Anderson died while under police custody, and a reasonable person could draw a line between the use of a CED and his death (as evidenced by this debate), there is not enough information on this subject to say it definitively. I think it's telling that the family's lawsuit against LAPD doesn't assert wrongful death, implying their lawyers don't think they have a strong enough case for that particular assertion. OctaviusIII (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

            It's really just a matter of what RS and verifiability policy is. This article is about unarmed african americans killed by police. For inclusion, a cited source should directly support that someone was: african american, killed by police, and unarmed. There is a grand total of zero (0) sourcing about him being killed by police, which is a pretty glaring miss. It's been over a week since this talk convo started (and well over a year since Anderson's death), yet no editor has been able to provide a source stating he was killed, whereas there is an abundance of sourcing stating otherwise, referencing the autopsy. I'll give this a couple more days in case Ludus or drmies or someone else is able to make a claim from reliable sourcing. KiharaNoukan (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

            I think that's fair. If evidence comes out to the contrary later on, of course, he should certainly be included. OctaviusIII (talk) 18:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'll admit that the reasoning I used was a mistake, however I stand by the fact that he was killed by the police. Medical examiners are not the be all-end all for this sort of thing, especially when many outlets say that Taser use at the minimum contributed, if not caused his death. The whole "So and so had drugs in their system" charade when it comes to deaths at the hands of police gets awfully tiresome. Ludus56 (talk) 16:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
  • You can believe whatever you want. You have a source stating that he was killed by the police that overrides the autopsy? KiharaNoukan (talk) 16:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Multiple Occurances of "Homicide" should be Clarified

My limited layman's understanding is that the term "homicide" is used in two different ways. Coroners use it to mean that a death was caused by another human, without any analysis of the rights and wrongs or legal justifications. The Justice system uses it as a court determination that the killer was morally at fault. I would say that most readers are familiar with the judicial meaning, and not the medical meaning, and therefore confusion occurs when so many cases has been "ruled homicide" and yet there's no mention of sentencing of the killer.

I believe most readers of this article will quickly realize it's a listing, and search for names or places without reading any leading explanatory text. Therefore, this cannot simply be explained once at the beginning. I'd suggest either 1) paraphrasing every mention of homicide with text to the effect of "X was determined by the coroner to have been killed by the actions of the police," or something similarly not insinuating blame, or, "X was a homicide (coroner ruling)" with "homicide (coroner ruling)" being a hot link every time to an article explaining the topic in detail. Swiss Frank (talk) 13:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The Justice system uses it as a court determination that the killer was morally at fault.

This isn't really true. Court systems follow the same definition as coroners do, meaning a killing of one person by another person. Most police killings and homicides in self-defense fall under "justified homicide", whereas other killings (murder, manslaughter (in some cases), and negligent homicide) are unjustified homicides. Saying a death was ruled homicide just means the coroner determined the officers were at fault for the decedant's death. If they are or aren't charged/clear billed, it should be mentioned in the Description column. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 12:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)