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Talk:Myanmar civil war (2021–present)

Latest comment: 16 hours ago by EmeraldRange in topic The "Timeline" section is too long and simply unreadable
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Map edits (August)

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Latest comment: 2 months ago10 comments3 people in discussion

August has passed with continued resistance gains! With this month's updates I've been trying to iron out mistakes and issues with the map. Honestly, all that I've found is that PDF control in Magway-Sagaing-Mandalay is likely far too overblown in some areas and too small in others.

Nitpicks, Suggestions, and Maps:

Indisputable Edits:

Disputable Edits:

Disputable "Disputed" Towns: (The issues I've found with the many of the towns supposedly being fought over in Magway-Sagaing-Mandalay region)
No fighting in past 4 months = X: This is more about a lack of sources to back it up, as I could not find sources about the towns labeled X.
(This part is a bit low quality as I was tired making it, also some of the settlements on this list are for the Template:detailed map. I'd suggest doing research if you're skeptical about one of my claims.)

IdioticAnarchist (talk) 15:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Re: labels; I sized them differently based on my perceived "relevance". Like Indian Insurgent Groups or NDA-K being at the same size as SAC might not work. I think written out is better and can standardise so that it's all un-abbreviated and at max 3 different sizes. (gonna switch out "Karenni resistance" for Karenni IEC.
When the first version of this map was made, we kind of arbitrarily drew lines where there was joint territorial control on the Thomas Linge map. We can do a pattern but it might map the map look even messier.
Your maps are helpful! But yes, to confirm to any other readers who back-verify, I've been going off the sources mentioned. I think Sagaing was something we didn't touch mostly because it didn't show up in headlines as much.
Re: DKBA/KNA in Payathonzu I believe last month we had news about KNLA essentially controlling the area, but it's a similar situation to Myawaddy pre-KNA seizure from what I've heard. But I don't remember where I read that.
I can likely make these changes Tuesday; more to follow. Just wanted to express my thoughts if any one else tackles it in the meantime. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:51, 31 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Most of those "disputed" dots are because of clashes in the township, not necessarily the township centre. Borysk5 (talk) 10:20, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
They should still be changed though, considering its misinforming readers. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 00:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Things that I didn't change:
  • Re: Acronyms; I've left acronyms in where it would just be too long to fit otherwise, standardised everything to 14pt or 9pt font
  • Joint control IMO is more important to show when two factions who might fight otherwise have agreed to join control like in Mongyai, Tangyan and Kutkai. It's simpler/more communicative not to put joint control for groups that are working together (e.g. Singu is also TNLA to some extent, Lailenpi is AA joint to some extent). It's harder to have hard evidence of joint control in rural areas (like shown on Thomas' map for example). The joint controls are really more of a de jure question rather than a de facto overview of control. Especially since PDFs are, de facto, local units using the same name not an organised army. Even in the case for this month, the Maw Luu update would be more accurate to show ABSDF (https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/myanmar-army-launches-offensive-to-retake-maw-luu-from-resistance/) not PDF if we want to go into de jure control.
  • RCSS & SSPP definitely control more but unfortunately, user-generated content from weibo is not an RS for wikipedia. As such, I haven't changed the SSPP-RCSS control based on that map
  • Unfortunately Nathan Ruser doesn't publish those maps elsewhere as far as I can tell, user-generated content on twitter or google maps is not an RS for wikipedia. Maybe we can pressure ASPI to publish them.
  • Nyaungshwe news says 32 km from Nyaungshwe. Irresponsible reporting; it's nowhere near Inle Lake (also already represented by the PDF blob west of Inle)
  • Loihtwea already on the PNLA/PNA border
  • Some sources showing contestation in Sagaing towns: Tabayin contestation, Myinmu contestation
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
For clarity and future reference I've put the full list of changes I made below:
Other Rakhine changes were made by @Borysk5 and verified by me. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Great map as usual! There's just a few things I noticed.
  • RCSS bases along Myanmar-Thailand border not shown (shown in the SHRF source, labeled as IDP camps but stated to be controlled by RCSS)
  • AA captured Ngapali beach and other junta holdout in Thandwe
  • Isn't this map based off of user-generated content from Twitter? Thomas Van Linge, to my knowledge, doesn't post his maps in any "formal" way (I could be wrong though). If the map is based of a Twitter map created by a journalist, why cant we update it using a Twitter map created by a journalist?
  • Moebye should be disputed
  • KIA in Nam Phat Kar not shown
Like I said, great map as usual! IdioticAnarchist (talk) 03:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Ah yeah RCSS IDP control can be added
  • I thought that hold out was the naval base not the beach. Beach is taken
  • Fair point, though it was originally because there were so few maps. I can incorporate Ruser at least
  • source for Mobye?
  • Nam Phat Kar is shown as KIA control. Your imgur map is looking at Namkham, Namphat kar is further east
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 16:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
IdioticAnarchist (talk) 17:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Map updated with:
  • RCSS camps added on Wa-south border
  • AA Ngapali updated
  • Bhamo, Tabayin and Myingyan maps updated to correspond with Ruser sources
  • Mobye contested
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Additional section on junta offensive?

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Latest comment: 1 month ago8 comments4 people in discussion

I’ve noticed that the last edit included a very narrow but deep push by the junta into KNLA-controlled territory. (Specifically, it looks like the offensive is heading towards the city of Papun.) Given that this is clearly something new that isn’t a regular engagement in the war, I feel like it should be added into the timeline (if it hasn’t already). LordOfWalruses (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I thought that was already included somewhere. Truth be told the post Laukkai section is such a mess but this is what we get for all the broad analysis being hidden behind closed doors. 21:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC) EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well that sounds like a rough situation. Hopefully a section on the Papun offensive can be found/made. LordOfWalruses (talk) 03:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm quite sure that the junta already controlled this area before the edit, and the edit was just to clarify the area. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 20:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see. Any specific reason as to why the junta’s control penetrates so deep into KNLA territory like that, or is it just a coincidence? LordOfWalruses (talk) 21:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I haven't really paid too much attention to the main article, I have a feeling when the aftermath of Yagi settles, there might be new reasons to make new sections. Atm the situation in Kayah state is a bit of an question mark considering the damage the typhoon has done with massive impact to civilians. Idk, but logically, one could imagine that it too could affect any potential offensives by either side. As to the current information, I would bake it into the current sections and just make the text flow logically. However if anyone wishes to make new section for the offensives by the Tatmadaw, then there's a source here [1] with their names and other such. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 18:57, 4 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yeah that makes sense. I would appreciate more information as you listed, though that source should be taken with a pinch of salt considering how it’s an opinion piece. LordOfWalruses (talk) 00:49, 5 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The way I used it was for the names and a quote. Then stating it's an anasysis. I know wikipedia has it's source recomendations to editors, however, imo most are ok if one uses them properly for what they are. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 09:15, 5 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ https://www.irrawaddy.com/opinion/analysis/myanmar-junta-counteroffensives-failing-across-country-analysts.html

Map change

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Latest comment: 1 month ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Should we change the map to October? 38.123.109.228 (talk) 08:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Done. Borysk5 (talk) 10:07, 20 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Can you perhaps fix the river near Chipwi? It looks a bit sloppy how the KIA borders cut the river off. Also, can you please cite your sources when editing the map? Other than that, thanks for updating it. I've been taking a break for a while to focus on school and stuff, but I plan on editing the article and helping with the map again soon. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 15:30, 21 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Fixed EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 01:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The changes were sourced on the module edits. Chipwi and Tsawlaw ([1]), Pinlebu ([2]), Hsipaw ([3]), Pangwar ([4]). Borysk5 (talk) 16:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Map Edits (Recent)

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Latest comment: 11 days ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Sorry I took a long break y'all! I was focusing on school and stuff.

Nitpicks, Suggestions, and Maps:

Indisputable Edits:

Disputable Edits:

IdioticAnarchist (talk) 20:20, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Adding to this: Wa and junta contesting Tangyan
https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/wa-occupiers-recruitment-practices-alarm-locals-in-northern-shan-state-township/\ EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
More extra news: KIA capture Kangfang from NDA-K (I've also been informed that Kangfang and Ganfai is the same settlement) https://www.rfa.org/burmese/news/kia-military-kachin-11042024115806.html IdioticAnarchist (talk) 15:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Changes applied, map updated:
Additional notes to list above:
  • "Oo Ka Yit Hta" is Ukrit- change applied
  • Sources for RCSS control of Lawksawk seem to point to Kunhing, not Lawksawk- RCSS presence added near Lawksawk due to fighting attached to PNA areas
  • Kantkaw and Gant Gaw are the same (in Nawnghkio junta counterattack)
Deviations from list above:
  • I think the map we have of UWSA right now makes more sense than the Irrawaddy map- though an argument can be made for areas surrounding Tangyan now that there is contestation- though I'd want more clear sources [no change made]
  • Tanai-Ledo road already has Kia presence on map [no change needed]
  • Chipwi, etc. already KIA controlled [no change needed]
  • Pinlebu already PDF controlled [no change needed]
  • Kanzee already shown as PDF controlled, nearby villages given back to junta as per source
  • Alu already shown with KNLA presence [no change needed]
  • Hsipaw already captured [no change needed]
  • Thitpinkauk, Moeoo and Namhparmu don't seem to exist on mimu or pcodes; expanded PNA control slightly across township borders to includ nangtawng (aka Nantaung)
  • Thon-ze-pay already shown as junta control [no change needed]
Disputed edits clarification
  • KNLA split edit: Taungkalay and Tilon town given to KNLA, but tempered by road and SAC MOC in both respectively being junta control. Hkalaukno-naunglon-eindu/mountain areas south of hpa-an given to KNLA. Other villages largely match what is already shown for junta.
  • Chin Brotherhood attacking/contesting Falam- article mentions urban wards. area around updated only minimally as not mentioned otherwise.
  • there probably were junta/nda-k bases north of Pang War before but would have been captured by now
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Sorry for the extra edit, but it's quite big. Lanse ("Laching") was captured by KIA forces, the final NDA-K base in north KSR-1. Also the capture of Shing Jai isn't shown on the map. I'd say its fair to say that the KIA have completely encircled Kanpaikti. Great edits by the way! IdioticAnarchist (talk) 16:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
done. Also updated Kangfang since I missed that update you replied earlier. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 14:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
So how has the momentum of the war changed/continued overall? Depending on the answer, maybe we should add some new info in case the course of the war is changing in any meaningful way. LordOfWalruses (talk) 03:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The "Timeline" section is too long and simply unreadable

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Latest comment: 16 hours ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This is actually a common issue of all wikipedia articles covering ongoing conflicts. Every new event is added, but when they turn out to be minor and next to irrelevant to the conflict, they aren't removed or edited according to the context. In fact this section isn't even in chronological order as it is necessarily the case with a timeline. There are many sub sections about specific operations and geographic areas and the text travel back and forward in time at a dizzying pace. It is more like a dump of news articles than an informative text.

I am not a frequent Wikipedia writer either and I don't know what would I be allowed to do if I decided to summarize this text, therefore I ask the community what could and should be done here, because at least to me the issue is very visible.I personally think that ongoing/recent conflicts' articles have no reason to be so drastically different from historical ones and this is where the problem is.138.62.255.10 (talk) 09:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Every so often I end up being the one summarising, doing some splits and shortening the sections. One of the unique issues with the coverage on the Myanmar civil war is that it's harder to find analysis on how to group all the news events. I think early on we grouped it by locaiton within a broader timeframe that had overarching takeaways. However, analyses have certainly shifted to a more constantly updated regional focus.
I know analyses have not been properly incorporated into the article yet but it's certainly harder to follow now that the most recent "timeframe" has the most events and the longest timeframe. I'm personally a bit busy for a few weeks but I'd be happy to try to find those analyses and reorganise the sections- especially post 1027. For now I guess I also want to see what others think. I know a few months ago we dicussed if it would be worth spliting the entire article into a Myanmar civil war (2021-present) and a Myanmar civil war (2023-present) or if that would be misleading to the average viewer who probably isn't aware that there is a war at all. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 05:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
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