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Scholarly article

Hi DTM, you asked for a scholarly article on the LAC. Here it is. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, hi, thank you, I will go through it properly. DTM (talk) 13:10, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Kautilya3 DiplomatTesterMan I wanted to know, Whether this Opinion piece written in the Wire can be considered as a scholarly one? How do you see ORF's work on this subject? Regards Santoshdts ^[TalkToMe] 17:45, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

It depends on the credentials of the author, Santoshdts. I don't know which ORF work you are speaking of. ORF are not particularly strong in military strategy. IDSA used to be, but it has completely lost its independence now. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Here is another very deep article. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

China confirms. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:06, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

It is good this was the first reason chosen publicly by a Chinese DTM (talk) 12:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

And this can be added to the article of course. Maybe the think thanks in China may come out with one or two more reasons later on? DTM (talk) 12:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Here in an officer's words and these two here and here for foreign perspective. This one how foreign media covers the recent confrontation. These might help. Drat8sub (talk) 00:42, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, Drat8sub; Thanks for the articles. I guess the reasoning has saturated itself or will do so soon. DTM (talk) 11:03, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I am putting all my eggs in the Kashmir basket. China has long been trying to edge itself into the "Kashmir dispute". Modi's reconfiguration of J&K has now given an opportunity to China to openly flaunt its Pakistan axis, and threaten a pincer on Kashmir. Call the reconfiguration of J&K Modi's "forward policy". India is in exactly in the same position as it was in 1962. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:05, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

The present status quo of Ladakh being an reality, giving Chinese the absolute opportunity as if they were waiting for it, think of it, since 1975 till yesterday, there was no bullet fired. Now we back to ground zero..1962. The Chinese are now well aware of India's weakness that they learnt from the Docklam standoff and as if they exactly know what they are doing. But did we? Docklam was a strategic point, and Chinese knew that very well if you want to caputure a strategic point you need to enter in multiple places including a strategic point, and that's what they did, entering through Pangong Tso and Sikkim and through diplomacy they left these two showing their willingness of cooperation but still at Galwan valley, which is a strategic point, which they need. I think India should have stirred the Indian ocean which is China's biggest weakness rather than focusing in the Himalayas only. It now wholely depends on our leadership will, now situtation demands no wrong steps. Drat8sub (talk) 14:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, we are going to hear plenty of analysis in the coming weeks and months. For the moment, I really want to know what happened to the Raki Nala area where the Chinese editors of OpenStreetMap gave themselves loads of territory 3 years ago. I think the Galwan valley was a decoy, and the real action happened here. But nobody has been able to tell us what happened there. It doesn't look like any newspeople can even get to that area. (Logging into the OSM today, I found some, presumably Chinese, drive-by editors tagging that place saying it was Galwan River. So we might guess that somebody has been telling them that Raki Nala is the Galwan River.) According to New York Times, China has occupied 250 sq km. (Neither Galwan Valley nor Pangong Fingers have that much area.)

The real "defeat" for India is in the fact that 17 injured soldiers have died before they could be hospitalised. That tells the Army and the powers that be that laying a road is just a beginning. In Aksai Chin, which is a hundred times more desolate than the Shyok valley, the Chinese have barracks, oxygen-enriched apartments, gas stations, shops and super-duper high ways. They probably don't have any hospitals yet. But they will build them now. There is a long way to go before we can even think of blocking an invasion let alone repelling one. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:14, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

By the way, I believe the "Patrol Point 14" where, I understand the deaths have occurred by people "falling off into the river", is at the Raki Nala location. Please check the geography of this place.

Patrol Point 15 is at the Jeong Nala and Patrol Point 17 is at the Galwan River. The point 16 is probably somewhere north of Galwan and no action has been reported there. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Drat8sub, you wrote, "Now we back to ground zero..1962" In what way do you mean - the deaths? I don't think we are back to ground zero. Saying that would be an oversimplification. Both China and India are very different, international community is different, etc only thing is that the location may be roughly the same. But isn't that what this is about? DTM (talk) 05:34, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, I can't find any proper Indian reports about Chinese infrastructure in Aksai Chin, all mainly relate to buidlup further east.

Kautilya3, I need to get better at using online maps for this region, I am way to slow with it all just now. I can grasp what you mean by PP14 etc but not well enough for a proper discussion as yet in relation to the localized geography. DTM (talk) 05:34, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3,DTM, you both must get through this Standing Committee report (assuming have not read this). Hope you will find it interesting. Here 1, 2 are excerpts from that report. Drat8sub (talk) 06:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Drat8sub, thanks for that report. I never knew anything about it. I will check.

I am not so sure of my theory of PP-14 any more because enough discussion has happened in the media, suggesting that the incidents took place in the Galwan valley. There are some confusing aspects like people "falling off cliffs" whereas there are no cliffs in the Galwan valley.

DiplomatTesterMan, the best way to investigate the infrastructure is to go to OpenStreetMap, zoom in to areas closely enough for the roads become visible, then use the right hand side menu where there is an arrow logo at the bottom (called "Query features"), and use the highlighter on the feature you want to query. Then it opens up an infobox for that feature which you can click. For example, here is the feature called the Galwan Highway (the top segment of it). The last segment known to OpenStreetMap is this one. We don't know if the road was extended any further because it doesn't show on the publicly available satellite maps.

OSM uses things called 'ways' (which are continuous segments) and 'relations' (which are larger features). For some roads or lines, people would have defined relations, e.g., the Aksai Chin boundary. For the Galwan Highway, there is no 'relation' yet. So you need to query each 'way' separately.

If you click the "layers" logo on the right hand menu, you get to pick four different views of the maps. I often use the "cycle map" which shows the terrain. Then you get to see the mountains etc, which would otherwise be just blank space. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the report; and thanks for the explanation related to the maps. I will go through both properly. DTM (talk) 11:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, DTM, are these thing mentioned in the article. And I don't see a map of this. Source is very reliable since from Planet labs. 1, 2, 3. Drat8sub (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I think the above thing that you were saying is about this. Drat8sub (talk) 19:30, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, what the reports say is quite mysterious. They can't block water with just bull dozers. They must have dammed the river. If they did that, then there would be a lake on the other side, which we don't see. So it is mysterious. Perhaps they are using it for short durations only and using the collected icy cold water as a weapon. "Soldiers falling into water" is more like "soldiers getting smashed with water".

Three good sources on the satellite evidence are:

• Henry Boyd, Meia Nouwens, Understanding the military build-up on the China–India border, International Institute for Strategic Studies, 18 June 2020.
• Nathan Russer, Satellite images show positions surrounding deadly China–India clash, Australian Strategic Policy Institute, 18 June 2020.
• Simon Scarr, Sanjeev Miglani, Satellite images suggest Chinese activity at India's Himalayan border before clash, Reuters, 19 June 2020.

They don't mention the water-as-a-weapon idea, but they all confirm that the water is being blocked. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:49, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, only the Reuters article is saying this. But I think the Reuters images make it clear that it is not a lake, but a "canal" that is being used to store the water. You can also see a bridge over it at one location, and a hill side has been dug out in order to create space for it. So they are storing water and releasing it in order to drown/freeze the opposing forces when they come. (That is how presumably the 17 Indian soldiers, other than the original three, died, if they weren't just beaten to death.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, is it possible in wikipedia to make a graphic map as shown in Reuters, any tool available here? because the existing map hardly shows the scenerio. And, they did blocked the water flow afterall, since the water level increases and water gets comparatively stagnant and murkier water get settle and clear water can be seen, and these Chinese just made it possible in weeks. What I see at one place there is kind of culvert bridge too constructed. And the water flow was blocked not for making any trap for Indian army but for further road , just see the point where machineries are, its almost near the trails seems end, they were increasing the road upto Shyok river, occupying the accessible plateau like flat area at the confluence of the two river, best place for a big base. And thats why the have a huge second convoy of trucks in the nearest camp. However, bodies were lifted from water whole night, which means they were in that icy water for sure. Drat8sub (talk) 02:48, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Sure, I can make an OSM location map with the majority of those locations, if you can do a write-up. Why don't you get started in your sandbox, and I will add a map?

As for the ingenuity in doing these things, the Chinese strategy of war has always been to do it without actual fighting. Their war plan would have included all these things. They didn't just happen overnight. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Drat8sub, Vinayak Bhat explains what they did [1]. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Incidentally, the precise location of the LAC in the Galwan Valley can also be a matter of considerable dispute. A Chinese editor just edited the OpenStreetMap boundary three days ago, giving China a bit more of land than it had already. But Google Maps, using the US Office of Geographer data, shows it a bit further up from the junction with the stream: 2D terrain, 3D. So the location where the Chinese tent was burnt down is on the Indian side of the LAC as per the US data. It gets very very tricky here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

The edit history of the LAC at Galwan on OpenStreetMap. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Theoretically I am following all of this. Practically will need some time. Keep at it and keeping at it. DTM (talk) 13:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I randomly adjusted a road on Pangong Tso on OSM. Who checks this? Can anyone change it back? Is this just like a Wikipedia edit but just on a map? DTM (talk) 14:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

If it is a good edit, it is unlikely to be changed. Very likely, nobody will notice. Things aren't as bad on OSM as they are on Wikipedia. So most users are trusted. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, ok I'll try to write up the whole story what happened in chronologically. But it'll take little time, atleast 30 articles describing the scenerio. Seen those map, here is fact, boundary is either mountain ridge/stratigraphic ridge/rivers, the newly changed line by the chinese editor drew the line arbitrarily through the mountain which cannot be correct. As the ridge line strated from the conflict point, where as the chinese editor drew the line without completing one mountain ridge and midway broken it while extended it to another mountain where ridge does not exist. Its a trick they are playing as in the satellite map you will see some white line can be seen, its nothing but landslide or due to intermittent flow, which the chinese editor trying to fool people by claiming it as stratigraphic ridge, where as terrain map clealy shows there is nothing exists. I never used OSM, I have to understand how this OSM works, seems like need of the moment. Drat8sub (talk) 18:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I made a map in my sandbox. If you need any more stuff added, please let me know.

As for OSM, there is nothing to it. You register an account and then off you go. But this particular edit, I have fixed already. It will probably take a day or two to show up. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Here precisely is the fix at the Galwan LAC. It is not showing up on the maps yet. Apparently it takes a while for the databases to get updated (probably helps to inhibit edit-warring).

According to India Today, it was proved during the Lt. Gen. talks that the Chinese observation post was on the Indian side of the LAC. It was then removed but later reappeared.

At the same time Freedsky moved the point in the Galwan Valley from his old point 34.7693261°N 78.2121848°E / 34.7693261; 78.2121848 (which was also wrong), to 34.7698901°N 78.2124853°E / 34.7698901; 78.2124853 on 18 June 2020. I have now moved it to 34.7688678°N 78.2127857°E / 34.7688678; 78.2127857, which corresponds to what I see on Google Maps, and is also in agreement with the ridge line on the other side of the river. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Also noting China's 1960 declared boundary so we can compare: 34°46′N 78°13′E. If you hover on any of these coord points, you get a little globe icon. Click on it, and you will get to see all these coordinates on as single map. It is part of Wikipedia magic! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

China's declared boundary now shows up at high enough a resolution. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:34, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Testing the WikiMiniAtlas for NJ9842 - 35°1′29″N 77°0′23″E DTM (talk) 11:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I just realised that all the coordinates on this page start to appear on the same mini map. DTM (talk) 11:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Depsang plains

Kautilya3, I went ahead and added Depsang to the OSM eastern Ladakh map that you had placed in the main article. One of the sources 1 I have added to the article mentioned other patrol points, but it is hard to figure out where they all are. I assume it starts from PP - 01

Bottleneck is known as Y-junction because the track coming from Burtse forks into two tracks, one going northwards along the Raki Nala to Patrolling Point-10 (PP-10) and the other south-eastward towards PP-13. These two tracks are followed by Indian patrols on foot up to PP-10, PP-11, PP-11A, PP-12 and PP-13.

DTM (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I have marked the bottleneck area on the OSM. I am afraid most of the newspapers have gotten things wrong again. Please look out for Praveen Swami columns. I can't yet tell where the "Chinese loop road" is. We need to see a satellite map for that. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

More specifically, I think the newspapers are mistaking India's own Qizil Langar post as a Chinese post. Disinformation again. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Found the "Track Junction" at 35.2324°N 77.9782°E / 35.2324; 77.9782. The Chinese loop road should be to the east of that. This location does roughly correspond to what the newspapers have been pointing at. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Gosh, this is in fact the famous "Qizil Langar". And Wikimapia has the Chinese loop road marked. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

My fault in having marked accepted this location as Qizil Langar previously. It was kind of at the edge of the US Army map NI 43-04 and I misread the location. The real Qizil Langar is to the south of it, near the origin of the Burtsa Nala. The "this location" is marked on Google Maps as "TAC HQ", and it appears that this is what Praveen Swami calls the "Track Junction". The Chinese loop road is directly opposite to that. Here is the link to the Praveen Swami article, which is relatively free of disinformation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

There is hardly any mention of "Qizil Langar" on Wikipedia or even online. What was your reason for calling it "famous". Actually there are so many map points not marked on these maps for places along the LAC, so many settlements without even a single photograph online, like the article for Darbuk–Shyok–DBO Road says Mandaltang is a village. Google maps doesn't even have it and OSM, I see no village on the various layers; the marker itself is located at a really precarious point.

This article has been done nicely - List of locations in Aksai Chin. I guess it is easier to make something like this when there are limited places to mark. I wonder if something similar could be made for List of locations along the LAC, then again LAC isn't really fixed, and that is the whole point of improving OSM in the first place. Your DBO OSM map has been shared on Twitter by the way link DTM (talk) 10:19, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

The map in Praveen Swami's article in News18 is a good one. I think this is the first map I am seeing that has multiple PPs. A wholesome birdseye view. DTM (talk) 10:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Qizil Langar has 89,000 Google hits (including weather forecasts!), probably ten times the amount you would have gotten for "Galwan River" before the present standoff. Why is it famous? (I don't know, just ran into it in many places.) Probably because it is the last halting place before DBO. The other stream near "Track Junction" (the old place marked as Qizil Langar) is probably frozen 90% of the time.

As for Mandaltang etc., apparently they aren't villages, but only campsites. Murgo is the only village in this part of Ladakh. It has a beautiful monastery, which you can google for. Thanks for sharing the tweet of the DS-DBO map. The second image on that tweet is the new bridge across the Shyok near the Galwan river. The Chewang Rinchen bridge isn't very photogenic at least to my eye. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed reply. DTM (talk) 11:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

1956 and 1960 claim lines

 Comment:@Kautilya3, DiplomatTesterMan, and Santoshdts: Bharat Karnad writes a blog about strategic affairs which is definitely worth reading. Bharat Karnad is one of India’s most well known strategic-affairs commentator; he has been quoted in almost all the books on Indian nuclear policy that I have read. (WP:TPS)— Vaibhavafro ^💬 09:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Vaibhavafro. I don't have much hopes that the Indian Army generals would listen to the brainy civilians or even retired generals. The same insularity we see among the Indian bureaucrats also pervades the Army. They only start listening when they get strung by the nose by smarter enemies. But after the crisis passes, they go back to sleep again. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:37, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you indeed Vaibhavafro. I can now connect some articles of his that I have previously read to his blog, most recently 'Is Modi ceding Indian territory to China?'. Taking a tangent, it is interesting how the blog was started in September 2011, and has continued till date. The categorization says a lot.

K3, "They only start listening when they get strung by the nose by smarter enemies. But after the crisis passes, they go back to sleep again." This reminds me of that saying about God, that we only remember God in difficult times. Though of course I am not comparing civilians to God here. DTM (talk) 07:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Interesting that the entire Raki Nala was excluded from China's 1960 claim line. But at the end of the 1962 war, they were occupying it, sort of along a north-south straight line. The LSIB 2017 (used by Google maps), for the first time, pushes out the LAC in that area, not all the way to the end of Raki Nala, but about half way out. I don't know how it happened. Perhaps the 2013 stand-off gave India some gains. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Pangong

Note the routes along Pangong

India's access to the Chang Barma valley (the valley at the middle of the lake on its northern shore) used to be via the Ane La pass in the north. An alternative route used to be the middl(the valley at the middle of the lake on its northern shore)e section of the lake, which could be presumably crossed by foot from the southern shore. Both of these were cut off by China in 1960. An excellent example of "seven inches below the head".

Then India started laboriously developing a route along the northern shore, which has never been done before because of the "fingers" jutting into the lake. So this route is now being cut off at Finger 4, another example of the same paradigm. The strategic importance of Finger 4 now becomes clear. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Incidentally this map, dated 1873, shows that the British had already given away the Chang Barma valley to China. How Nehru and co hoped to get it back is inexplicable. All the present day newspaper maps that show the LAC at Chang Barma are stupidly fanciful. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

• Try the "Wikimedia warper" on this map for a really cool overlay, that shows the difference between the original boundary and the present one. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3 Clarification needed related to your mention of "Chang Barma valley". Are you pointing to a marked or unmarked feature on the map? On the map I can only spot - "Chang Chenmo valley" and "Changlung Barma Pass" which have similar names in the location I am assuming you are referring to.

I checked out Wikimaps Warper for the first time just now. It is like tracing we use to do as kids using tracing paper. I tried some of the other rectified maps. Such a simple but powerful concept. Easy to use too.

The British seem to be making better maps of India (British India) than we did a hundred+ years ago. DTM (talk) 08:22, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Chang Barma (OpenStreetMap) is the large pronounced valley in the middle of the lake on the north. That is where India's claim line is. It ends in a huge plain jutting into the lake, and reducing the lake to a narrow water channel for about 10 miles. This plain is traditionally called Ote, now better known as "Khurnak plain" or "Khurnak region" after the Khurnak Fort situated on it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3 Ok. Got it. I have been over these places so many times in these past few days; shouldn't have missed the names or not let them register. Thanks. DTM (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

"Chang" just means north. So you find it in many names: Chang La, Changlung, Changtang etc. Changtang (or Changthang) now just means elevated grazing grounds all over Ladakh as well as Tibet.

For this particular valley, Strachey wrote its name as "Chang Parma" and Godwin-Austen spelled it as "Chang Burmah". I thought "Barma" must be a more standardised spelling, but now I am having doubts. Normally "Barma" occurs twinned with "Yogma". (There is a Changlung Barma pass and another Changlung Yogma pass. So it is some kind of a disambiguator.) We don't see that here. So I am going to change it back to "Parma". As to what "Parma" could mean see here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

There is apparently a Parma valley near Chushul. So "Chang Parma" would mean northern Parma. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

The British boundaries

When we say the "original boundary", we need to keep in mind that there were two boundaries, which are explained on the Demchok sector page. The first boundary was decided in 1847-48 by an official boundary commission consisting of Alexander Cunningham, Henry Strachey and Thomas Thomson, all of whom are highly notable explorers. The second boundary was unofficially made up by the Kashmir survey in 1860s on highly questionable grounds. Normally, surveyors don't make boundaries. They can only recommend them to the government, which is then responsible for deciding. In this case, nothing was decided. So their boundary line got printed on all the maps without any decisions having been made. (Privately, there might have been discussions between the Government of India and the Kashmir Maharajas, which we don't know about. The Kashmiris did not accept the boundaries and just kept doing whatever they always did.)

After independence, the new "Government of India", for the first time, listened to the Kashmiris and formalised the prevailing situation as a border line. India's border line is thus closer to the Cunningham-Strachey-Thomson boundary from 1847. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Gosh!!! I was inactive for last 1 week, now I realise what I've missed, someone surely pulled their sleeves and sticking to the study table with a magnifying glass for sure. Knock Knock Sherlock !!...Kautilya I think it's not me but you should write it down the whole section of Galwan. I though started but did not add it to the sandbox though. But after reading all above I think you are more into the details, I'm afraid I may miss a lot. Drat8sub (talk) 05:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

New claim on Changlung river

Here. It was added to OSM on 16 May.

detresfa's map shows that it is already under Chinese occupation. It hasn't been reported in the Press.

The new claim line appears to be at the coordinates the Chinese declared in 1960: 34° 22' N, 78° 53' E. So this could be a riposte to the Indian demand for the 1960 coordinates in the Galwan Valley.

Some background on the Changlung river: It is one of the two major tributaries of the Chang Chenmo River, the other being Kugrung, which is to the west on the Indian side of the LAC. (Recall that "Chang" means north and "lung" is something like a valley. Not a great name. But there we are.) Changlung is the communication route to the head of the Galwan Valley (Samzungling). You see it on the travel routes map above. Karam Singh, leading an Indian patrol party sometime before 1959:

"Now, look at your map, we shall be moving along river Chang Lung towards Samzungling via Kota Jilga [Keta] and Yangling [Banlong?]. Samzungling is 30 KM away and lies to the southeast of Panamic and northeast of Tegar. A fair weather road exists till Yangling which is going to be our first stop. Everybody shall carry half a seer of dry fruits for use in any emergency. This packet, however, shall be opened only under my orders. Everybody must have snow goggles with him. "Right, Merey Shero (my tigers), our next stop is going to be at Banlong about 13 K.M. from here. We go along the Chang Lung River. I do not expect any big problems on our way. It is no more than a rivulet and could be crossed at many places or just jumped over at some'.... Well before the sunset, they made to Samzungling, the source of river Galwan and a regular halting place for the caravans that had built some structures there for their stay. There was again no need to pitch up their tents here. The patrol found ready shelters to spend the night.

The other place where you see Chinese positions in defstra's map is on a tributary of Galwan called "Xicagou" (rhymes with Chicago). The 1962 Indian post was established on this tributary, close to its meeting point with Galwan. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:53, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, did any western publisher or any other publisher, publish any maxar image of Pangong Tso build up??? Please provide if you find. I don't find any. Drat8sub (talk) 15:04, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think anybody published actual photographs. The best we have is Nathan Ruser's article. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

References

So Modi surrenders

The Chinese move behind the Indian perception of the LAC in Galwan Valley, and the Indians move behind the Chinese perception of the LAC at the Galwan estuary. No word yet on the Pangong Fingers or Hot Sprints (especially Changlung).

• Deeptiman Tiwary, Sushant Singh, Krishn Kaushik, In Galwan, both sides agree: Troops step back 1.8 km, 30 soldiers each in tents, The Indian Express, 7 July 2020.
• Ajai Shukla, Signs of thaw at Galwan Valley after NSA Ajit Doval, Wang Yi talk, Business Standard, 7 July 2020.
• Brahma Chellany, China may win, without fighting, Hindustan Times, 9 July 2020.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:05, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

"Do You Remember?" Congress Digs Out PM Modi's 2013 Tweet On India-China.

I think Congress also used to be wimpy, but Modi's buckling is gigantic in comparison. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

DTM and Kautilya3 from the Business standard article (above) and HindustanTimes article, I think we need to add few lines that the current policy is not a win situation but a surrender to China's policy of 10 step forward and 6 step backward while winning 4 steps by them. But where to add, whcih section in the article??? Drat8sub (talk) 04:42, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I have added the Brahma Chellany article to the list. These columnists understand, just like we do, that a restoration of status quo ante is not possible without a military response. But that would be WP:CRYSTAL. But we should definitely point out that "disengagement" does not mean restoration of status quo ante. It just means that no further encroachments will be made, for now.

• As for the Galwan Valley, there is some good news. Taylor Fravel has pointed out that China has never claimed up to what we understand by "Galwan estuary". Rather, it appears to mean the 90-degree bend, the site of PP-14.
• But the Chinese web site he cites as authoritative, tianditu, shows the Chinese extensions of claims at the Raki Nala, Jeong Nala, Changlung estuary (Gogra), Finger 4 Pangong, and the corresponding southern shore extension. All these claims have long been present in the OpenStreetMap, with the exception of the Changlung estuary which was added in May (in the middle of the standoff). So the Chinese claims are public knowledge. But Finger 4 and Gogra the only one that has been reported in the Press.Gogra added. Kautilya3 (talk) 08:54, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
• I have long believed that the Galwan Valley encroachment was a decoy. It was the most public one, the most inflammatory one. China would have always intended to move back from here, while all the other encroachments would go unnoticed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, just seen your comment. However, I have reconstructed the section 2020 China–India skirmishes#Diplomatic response. Can you check or modify if needed. Drat8sub (talk) 07:58, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

1 & 2 maps surely showing they are claiming beyond pp14. And this map shows their claim upto Shyok river. Drat8sub (talk) 08:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen these older maps. They are hand-drawn sketch maps, which can't be taken to be precise. Fravel's latest post gives "authoritative" information.

This map of the history of 1962 war is a good one. The post numbered 14 is what we call India's "Galwan Post". It was actually on a tributary of Galwan called "Xicagou". The post 27 is also presumably on Xicagou. This was the only presence of India in the vicinity of Galwan. We don't know if there was a rear base in the Shyok Valley, but the Chinese presumably expected there to be. So they didn't come all the way to the Shyok Valley. Their claim line was only up to the 90-degree bend (or 450 metres short of that point). So they didn't need to come all the way to the Shyok Valley in any case.

In contrast, note that there were 6 posts along the Changlung river. This was a regular patrol route for the Indians. So they had to use full force to block the Indians there. The Galwan Valley, in contrast, was quite impenetrable in 1962. Even the Chinese posts are on the mountain tops surrounding it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:16, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

A quick summary of the losses is here, from Ajai Shukla. I actually watched the whole interview, which is useful to convince yourself that Shukla knows what he is talking about, but there is no particular information there. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:16, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Depsang Plains is the biggest loss, as I always believed it would be. A fringe benefit of editing OpenStreetMap is that you get to know what the Chinese will do three years down the road. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:20, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I have watched the interview, we need to re write the "atttempts of disengagement" and the "failure of status quo ante". Kautilya3, do we have any other other source on reality of Gogra and hot spring??? Drat8sub (talk) 04:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

No. But I will continue looking. If it is true that the Press is only reporting what the Government is leaking, it is understandable that nothing has appeared about Gogra and Depsang Plains. They are trying to quietly negotiate. I would let them get on. Yesterday's news, which is the most obscure statement ever, is basically saying that nothing has been agreed. No news is good news. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 06:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I guess I haven't told you guys about earthworks.stanford.edu. This is an extremely useful site as it documents the US Office of Georapher's LSIB3 database, released in 2013, overlaid on the OpenStreetMap. (I haven't found any place for the last LSIB database, which was released in 2017, and used by Google Maps). Since the OSM boundaries are constantly being changed by Chinese editors, we get to see the claims that the Chinese are making or intend to be make in future. So, funnily, all that the Indian military has to do to figure out where the Chinese will encroach in future, all they have to do is to monitor OpenStreetMap!

So, here are the OSM edit histories for the boundary at the currently disputed locations:

• Hot Springs
• Gogra
• Raki Nala and Jeong Nala (Interestingly, a Chinese editor has just deleted an Indian editor's claim here!)
• Pangong north shore
• Pangong south shore
• Dumchele (north of Demchok)

When a line is changed, the old line is marked in red, the new line in green. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

"So, funnily, all that the Indian military has to do to figure out where the Chinese will encroach in future, all they have to do is to monitor OpenStreetMap!" You have mentioned something like this before also. Chinese editors making edits in the Ladakh region of OSM, slowly shifting areas into their territory. I remember as a kid playing with toy plastic soldiers, tanks and planes. Most of the time it is very intuitive as to what is going to happen since there are very few things you can do with a line - leave it where it is, shift it forward, shift it back. Then again, a handswipe in jest or callousness was enough to spoil everything. DTM (talk) 09:51, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3 and DTM, the alarm came internally itself around March before those analyst had to go for publishing report. And their alarm was based on maps after all, I don't know when OSM thing was first changed but surely before physically changing the geography they did muddled it in black and white. This skirmish surely brought the naked truth out that how in traces are our intels on China. When I said, its back to ground zero, it because of this facts, then a whole highway build and our intelligence had nothing to offer, today they made new roads, established base, mobilished large number of soldiers & our intelligence failed to alarm. Drat8sub (talk) 01:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Drat8sub our intelligence had nothing to offer :D are you sure? Strategically, China has been a threat for a long time to India. I am sure we would have a few eyes looking in that direction? DTM (talk) 06:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

It can be either of the two, the intellegence failed us or the present govt. But, still I believe we have minuscule intels on chinese activities. Even intellengence failed when Pulwama happened, intels on Pak is strong but still it happened. So, consider this and think how much our intellegence agencies have information about chinese activities. 1, 2, 3 4drom these it seems there is some problem with our agencies. Drat8sub (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, "intelligence" is not a black-and-white thing. Information that comes in has to be processed and graded as it moves up the command ladder. Once it reaches the top (who is the top, actually? Doval?) it has to be actioned. So lots of things can go wrong between the cup and the lip.

You must have seen the films/documentaries about the hunt for Osama Bin Laden. It was touch-and-go all the way. If it was a lesser President than Obama it could have gone wrong. I remember a line from one of the movies I saw, "you want the President of the United States to put his ass on the line because you have hunch?" That is how intelligence works.

Given how Modi was trying deny what was visible to the naked eye to the whole world, I am surprised anything works at all in this government. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:01, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

For instance, let us say that there is indeed an analyst that looks after the OSI and notices the stuff happening on OpenStreetMap. If he flags it up, what weight will his superiors give to this information? I would expect, none.

What is remarkable is that, even after the standoff started, the Army did not take care to protect the Y-junction at the Raki Nala, and allowed it to be occupied by the Chinese. This ought to rank as the highest incompetence! But who is asking? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The officer said that “Chinese troops, which were part of an ongoing training exercise, were later diverted to the standoff sites on the LAC. These exercises are routine every summer and there has been a long understanding that the two armies move back to their bases after the exercise. It is an established norm, followed scrupulously for years.”

Deja vu? Wasn't it the same argument they gave for why the Kargil intrusions weren't countered? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:46, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Drat8sub, there is a chapter in The Unending Game by RAW chief V. Sood titled "Known by their failures". Vikram Sood, has said this phrase in many ways over the years - "“India’s intelligence agencies are known for their failure because we cannot boast about our achievements." (Deccan Chronicle). DTM (talk) 08:43, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Distrust but verify

• * Mike Pompeo, Communist China and the Free World’s Future, US Deartment of State, 23 July 2020.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

... distrust but verify / distrust until fully and comprehensively verified / verify and still not trust /
verify and verify / verify and then trust / verify first trust second / trust but verify sources in a pandemic...

Communist China and the Free World’s Future could be considered for a Wikipedia article. What do you think? There are more than enough sources. Some sources even give lengthy analysis. DTM (talk) 06:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, go for it DiplomatTesterMan. You have the right user name for it! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3 "You have the right user name for it!" - When I created my username in 2013/2014 it was soooooooooo random. There was a notepad lying on the table, the company was "Diplomat". "Tester" because that is what i was doing at the time, seeing what Wikipedia was. And "man" because, well, i am male. I didn't even think much about it at the time. Now the word "diplomat" does cross my mind and I sooo want to change my username sometimes, but then I've left it for now :D This is one of the reasons I actually shortened my username and prefer to use the short version. DTM (talk) 09:39, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh, shoot. I always thought of you as a tester (taster?) of the Diplomat! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:49, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Haha! But meanings can change over time even if there was no thought out meaning when it was created. So anything really goes with this name. DTM (talk) 13:23, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

also, I don't drink. aka Teetotalism DTM (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of Russia, About that Spring (song) (О той весне), I have this song in my to-do list too! DTM (talk) 13:40, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Hold on a minute. What did you mean by I have the right user name for it and then connect my username to Russian Diplomat Vodka? DTM (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2020 (UTC) @Kautilya3: DTM (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

No connection at all. Drink is completely divorced from politics, even though it might stimulate politics. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:20, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Request to make a page on MS Bhatia IPS

He is a legendary officer Jharkhand Cadre currently serving in CRPF. Jascfc (talk) 11:47, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Jascfc I went through a couple of online sources related to this. Please could you point to information that is online related to the 'legendary' aspect please. Thanks. DTM (talk) 11:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

He has also been appointed as the Managing trustee of Bharat Ke Veer Trust by the Home Ministry Jascfc (talk) 19:06, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Also for some reason links aren't getting pasted! Jascfc (talk) 19:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Send me your email id and I'll forward you the links! Jascfc (talk) 19:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Jascfc Bharat Ke Veer, that is a familiar name indeed! I remember seeing long back if a page could be made for this. Anyway email is pulakitsingh@gmail.com . (It does make little sense why you can't paste links :D, but then ok). DTM (talk) 10:20, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Well done for ICBR

Ram Ram bhai,

Kit se? Jiwe se, ke mar gya? hehehe Hope all is well with you.

Thanks for creating India-China Border Roads. I have expanded it to include all the related infrastructure revelent to the India-China geostrategic context. You may want to rename the article to "India-China border geostrategic infrastructure" and within that ICBR is one of the component, along with important railways, AGLs, etc. I will continue to expand the text, e.g.

1. Find all the roads by state and map those to 3 corresponding Indian Military sectors (Western sectors is Ladakh, Middle sector is Himachal and Uttrakhand, Eastern sector is Sikkim and Arunachal) table you have created.
2. Add a statewise count of total number of ICBR, Uttrakhand, followed by Arunachal and then Ladakh.
3. Parliamentary committe noted that there are 530+ roads being build near India-China border, among those highest numbers are under "CSG roads" (I presume "Counterterrorism Security Group to deal with insurgents in JK, Arunachal and Northeast)?, then 70+ are labelled as "GS roads" (Geostrategic) which are also called ICBRs (your article), and then there is 3rd category called "ITBF roads" (I presume these are roads going to ITBF border posts, army has separate bases/camps than ITBF).
4. I am not sure if there is ICBR Phase-2 or not. I vaguely recall I might have created a notion of Phase-2 while updating Border Roads Organisation few years ago. Need to recheck if Phase-2 exists or I misunderstood. If exists, then we need to research and add more details on it.

In addition to ICBR article you created, please see the table I have created List_of_disputed_territories_of_India#Disputed_areas and the Andaman_and_Nicobar_Command#Strategic_importance_of_ANC section I wrote (along with the table in the article). These 3 articles, including your ICBR article, summarise India's China centric geostrategic context and infra/political developmentsetc. Perhaps we could create a separte "meta article" article India's China centric geostrategic initiatives to summarise these 3 article, while still retaining the present 3 articles for capturing details. What do you think?

I did miss your presence here bhai. Take care of your physical and mental health first. No rush. Come back when you are in the mood to enjoy wikipedia, meanwhile do not force yourself. Stay safe. Cheers! 58.182.176.169 (talk) 13:57, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi DTM, Hope you are all right? I just noticed that you haven't been talking for a while, when our IP friend started alluding to it. Please take rest and we will see you when you get back! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:38, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Will be back soon. DTM (talk) 11:59, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

58.182.176.169, thanks for all the pointers. CSG would be China Study Group, as mentioned in the ICBR article too. CSG would be notable enough for its own article. GS roads or general staff roads (not the better sounding geostrategic) have been annotated in the article. The improvements to the article are quite a handful. A meta article makes sense and in a way the framework has already been laid down in ICBR. DTM (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

California nut crimes

Thank you for your work on that article! California nut crimes. Fun article. I hope you don't mind that I added a new category to it for "Thefts of food" into which I also stuck the article Great Canadian Maple Syrup Heist. I did some googling and saw that there are a couple of dozen other well-known food-theft situations :) Novellasyes (talk) 13:35, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Novellasyes, yes, I did notice the grouping you did. Thanks! One thing about the category - "Thefts of food".... to make it similar to other theft-related categories "Food theft" would be a more appropriate label. As for the other food thefts... I had sniffed around a little online too and it seems a hopeful topic :D "Fun" is the word you used! I had even checked if "food theft" or "food crime" were separate articles, which they are not, not even a proper section anywhere. DTM (talk) 09:18, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I will change it [the category name] to "Food theft". thanks!! Novellasyes (talk) 14:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

July 2020

Hello, I'm Bishonen. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Islamophobia have been undone because they did not appear constructive. Thanks. Bishonen | tålk 09:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Bishonen Are you sure about this? I made the edit carefully. DTM (talk) 10:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Bishonen the movies both express and depict.... we are 50/50 DTM (talk) 10:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I have personally seen some of the movies. (Not saying I am a source lol, just saying generally.) DTM (talk) 10:06, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, I haven't seen them, but I've read our articles about them. It seemed obvious to me that they are, well, islamophobic movies — that anti-islam is their message. I do think "depict" is misleading, because with that addition, the sentence means pretty much the opposite. If you think it's important enough, could you please start a discussion on talk, per WP:BRD? Bishonen | tålk 10:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC).

Bishonen. My Name is Khan is certainly not anti-Islamic. SRK in the movie is a Muslim who is treated in an Islamophobic way by some of the characters. The movie in itself tries to show Muslims in a good light! Let me go through the articles and the references and I will let you know in a more wikified manner. Yes, the discussion should be on the talk page.

Moved to Talk:Islamophobia

DTM (talk) 02:26, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

DYK for National Intelligence Law

On 28 July 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article National Intelligence Law, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Chinese citizens are lawfully required to spy for the state? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/National Intelligence Law. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, National Intelligence Law), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Gunjan Saxena

On 18 August 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Gunjan Saxena, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Gunjan Saxena was the first woman Indian Air Force officer to go to war? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Gunjan Saxena. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Gunjan Saxena), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Communist China and the Free World's Future

On 22 August 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Communist China and the Free World's Future, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that in a 2020 speech, U.S. secretary of state Mike Pompeo (pictured) said that Hollywood self-censors when it comes to China? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Communist China and the Free World's Future. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Communist China and the Free World's Future), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:01, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Delhi Riots 2020: The Untold Story

A book titled "Delhi Riots 2020: The Untold Story" is set to launch today. It's published by Bloomsbury and Kapil Mishra is invited to the launch event. I'm sure that'll get lots of coverage and reviews. Any plans for an article on that? Thanks, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 00:41, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

TryKid, there aren't many reviews as yet, not even an e-book. Apart from the Kapil Mishra-Bloomsbusry controversy, there isn't much in-depth coverage. Maybe at a later date, or maybe information can be picked up and used in the riots article (though I guess I won't be doing that, haven't been with that article long enough so it will end up taking me ages to add even just a line). DTM (talk) 09:44, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

annnnnnd it's gone. Bloomsbury backs down from publishing. Should have just shifted it to "fiction" section instead of denying publication: free speech and all that. Regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 12:06, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Seems like they are mimicking the covid vaccine announcements, The Wire writes:

Other publishers also raised questions on how a book could have been written, fact-checked, edited and published so quickly, given the sensitivity of the issue, the fact that the riots took place in late February this year and the police investigation, itself mired in allegations of bias, has not even been completed.

No one said this of the Shaheen Bagh books that have been published! Yes one is a riot another a protest but still!! Mention of this, the withdrawal, could still be made in the main article, 2020 Delhi riots. DTM (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Farooq Khan

Hello! Your submission of Farooq Khan at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Flibirigit (talk) 05:40, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Specifically about QPQ. Vincent^LUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 09:47, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Noted DTM (talk) 09:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Avrodh: The Siege Within

On 25 August 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Avrodh: The Siege Within, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the web series Avrodh: The Siege Within meticulously details the planning for India's retaliatory military strike following the 2016 Uri terrorist attacks? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Avrodh: The Siege Within), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of KFC Srinagar for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article KFC Srinagar is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KFC Srinagar until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Chinar(Message) 16:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Rajinder Singh (brigadier)

The article Rajinder Singh (brigadier) you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Rajinder Singh (brigadier) for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Peacemaker67 -- Peacemaker67 (talk) 07:41, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK for National Education Policy 2020

On 28 August 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article National Education Policy 2020, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that under India's new education policy, students will be allowed to combine fashion studies with physics, or baking courses with chemistry? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/National Education Policy 2020. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, National Education Policy 2020), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Jammu for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Jammu is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Jammu until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Muhandes (talk) 09:08, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Kashmir for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Kashmir is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Kashmir until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Muhandes (talk) 09:08, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Hi thank you for adding more information on Russel K Haight Adityanag2002 (talk) 06:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! DTM (talk) 05:12, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikiproject Military history coordinator election nominations open

Nominations for the upcoming project coordinator election are now open. A team of up to ten coordinators will be elected for the next year. The project coordinators are the designated points of contact for issues concerning the project, and are responsible for maintaining our internal structure and processes. They do not, however, have any authority over article content or editor conduct, or any other special powers. More information on being a coordinator is available here. If you are interested in running, please sign up here by 23:59 UTC on 14 September! Voting doesn't commence until 15 September. If you have any questions, you can contact any member of the coord team. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:04, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Farooq Khan

On 9 September 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Farooq Khan, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Farooq Khan headed the Kashmiri Special Operations Group credited with the killing of more than 2,000 militants between 1994 and 1996? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Farooq Khan. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Farooq Khan), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:03, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Onkar Singh Kalkat

On 12 September 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Onkar Singh Kalkat, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Major O. S. Kalkat stumbled upon plans of an invasion of Kashmir in 1947, but no one believed him until the invasion actually started? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Onkar Singh Kalkat. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Onkar Singh Kalkat), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Main Page § Inaccurate fact in the leading hook

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Main Page § Inaccurate fact in the leading hook. Deepak G Goswami (talk) 05:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the catch. Was a clear miss on my part. DTM (talk) 06:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Milhist coordinator election voting has commenced

G'day everyone, voting for the 2020 Wikiproject Military history coordinator tranche is now open. This is a simple approval vote; only "support" votes should be made. Project members should vote for any candidates they support by 23:59 (UTC) on 28 September 2020. Thanks from the outgoing coord team, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Your DYK nomination of Gunjan Saxena

Hiya I've reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Gunjan Saxena and left some questions for you. Cheers, Mujinga (talk) 14:11, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Kamal Rani Varun

On 3 August 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Kamal Rani Varun, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

ITN Blurb

Hello, please suggest a blurb here (you can put in the template directly) Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#Ram_Mandir,_Ayodhya. Regards. --Titodutta (talk) 10:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Titodutta, thanks for nominating this as an ITN. I will try and think of alt blurbs. Maybe you can also put a message for this on the talk page of the Ram Mandir article too? DTM (talk) 10:14, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK for California nut crimes

On 7 August 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article California nut crimes, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that one California nut job can cost up to $500,000? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/California nut crimes. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, California nut crimes), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Wug·a·po·des​ 20:33, 4 August 2020 (UTC) 00:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 11

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DYK nomination of Avrodh the Siege Within

Hello! Your submission of Avrodh the Siege Within at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Maury Markowitz (talk) 20:47, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination of National Education Policy 2020

Hello! Your submission of National Education Policy 2020 at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Flibirigit (talk) 16:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Rajinder Singh (brigadier)

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Rajinder Singh (brigadier) you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Peacemaker67 -- Peacemaker67 (talk) 04:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Dear DiplomatTesterMan, Thank you for your contributions to India-related articles. ❯❯❯Praveg A=9.8 16:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! DTM (talk) 16:44, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Help needed

Hi. The article Delhi Metropolitan Council has been nominated for copyvio. But I copied some parts of the Article from Delhi Legislative Assembly with credit and I think copying within wiki is allowed if given credit. So can you please add that to AFD or something else? Thank you. -- Manasbose ^{(talk | contribs)} 04:46, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

also the articles which the copyvio tag mentions are just copy paste of Delhi Legislative Assembly article of Wikipedia. -- Manasbose ^{(talk | contribs)} 05:07, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Manasbose, it isn't correct to copy within Wikipedia if the copy is an already introduced copyvio. But as far as I can tell the original text is not copyvio. https://www.insightsonindia.com/ link is dated 5 November 2014 while the wiki text was here on 2 Nov 2014. The second link is 2017 so less confusion there related to copyvio. An editor has said the same on the talk page

Moved to Talk:Delhi Metropolitan Council

DTM (talk) 08:11, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Battle of Namka Chu (what not to do)

Kautilya3, two questions,

1. This could do with its own article - Battle of Namka Chu. What do you think?
2. Also, the Battle of Namka Chu is a good example of what NOT to do. Are there any other clear examples like this in independent India?

DTM (talk) 07:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the Dhola Post article should have all the content on the so-called "Battle of Namka Chu". Even though it is a catchy title, there wasn't really a "battle" there. Basically the Indian positions were overrun.

Once a decision was taken to set up the Dhola Post, everything else flowed from it inexhorably. Somebody should have had the good sense to see that it was disputed territory, which should have been left for negotiation rather than military action.

The current "Black Top" adventure is a clear parallel. Nobody knows where it is, whose hands it is in, whose hands it should be in. Nothing. Total confusion prevails. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:18, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I think I disagree that the Battle of Namka Chu is an example of "what not to do".

• First of all, many people believe that India pressing its case at Namka Chu was the reason for the war. No, it wasn't. The reason for the war was that China decided a war was necessary. The Namka Chu confrontation just served as an excuse. (If India is holding Black Top today, that can also similarly serve as an excuse.)
• But India's faults were galore. The location of the Dhola Post itself was stupid. It could not be supplied easily. It could be easily dominated from Thagla Ridge. It was north of Khinzemane, which itself was being disputed. So it was certain that the Dhola Post would also be disputed. But the local commanders weren't made aware of this. (They became aware by themselves, but not because the Army had thought things through and had a strategy for what to do about it.)
• When the Chinese tried to negotiate about it locally, they were rebuffed.
• When Umrao Singh said the Operation Leghorn was infeasible, nobody listened to him. Instead he was removed and replaced by Kaul, who was totally unfit for the job (including inability to acclimatize). And Kaul wasn't given enough troops either.
• When Kaul too backed out, Nehru shelved the Operation Leghorn, but still pretended in public as if it was going ahead. So, the Chinese were sent wrong signals. They genuinely thought Nehru was asking for a war, whereas he was just showing empty bravado. (Imagine!)
• And, nobody expected the possibility that Namka Chu could blow up into a full-scale war. Nobody was prepared for it when it happened.

I would say that the local negotiations should have been allowed, and if they didn't reach a resolution (as I would expect), the matter should have been escalated to senior levels. While this was going on, a token post could have been retained at Namka Chu, but the bulk of the force could have been withdrawn to Pangchen. The real battle, if at all it had to happen, should have happened at Pangchen, not at Namka Chu. Meanwhile, the entire Tawang district should have been reinforced. In the event, even the Tawang town was left undefended in order to support Namka Chu.

But the Henderson Brooks & Bhagat report goes out of line in declaring that Dhola Post was not Indian territory. It wasn't its job to make judgements on such matters. Practically everybody in the Army is convinced, even today, that the Dhola Post was in Chinese territory. Ajai Shukla writes, "In one of the HBR's revelations, it emerges that Dhola was accidentally established on China's side of the McMahon Line." So, as if the Army's faults weren't bad enough, HBR screwed it up even more, giving ammunition to the likes of Neville Maxwell. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:18, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

...the so-called "Battle of Namka Chu". Even though it is a catchy title, there wasn't really a "battle" there. Basically the Indian positions were overrun. >> There are many sources which use the phrase/title "Battle of Namka Chu", (a simple Google search conveys the same) though "Namka Chu incident" is also there. Anything with overrun in the header may be a bit too much even if that is what happened. The suggestion to shift it to Dhola Post post makes sense for now.

Moved to Talk:Dhola Post

Operation Leghorn redirected to Sino-Indian War

Moved to Sino-Indian War

DTM (talk) 10:52, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Rating of importance for an article you created

Hello DiplomatTesterMan. I am writing to you about the Zhenhua Data Leak article you created. [2]. I have a question. How did you get the article to be rated the way it did? [3] I was thinking of adding the article to the Mass Surveillance WikiProject. However, I do not know how to get the rater to do it. Therefore i have come here to seek your help. Thank you for the help in advance! Fortliberty (talk) 09:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Add Rater script to your /common.js page. Installation and usage instructions are here User:Evad37/rater. Please note that "Code that you insert on this [/common.js] page could contain malicious content capable of compromising your account. If you import a script from another page with "importScript" or "iusc", take note that this causes you to dynamically load a remote script, which could be changed by others." Cheers. DTM (talk) 10:06, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the WikiProject. I removed the default parameter for importance. Everything else is default. Thanks. DTM (talk) 10:52, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

September 2020

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give a page a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into Bilkis. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page (the tab may be hidden in a dropdown menu for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Requests for history merge. Thank you. Captain Calm (talk) 10:53, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

You are merging to a moving target

Various Bilkis articles keep moving around! Fiddle Faddle 11:31, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Timtrent, Captain Calm, sorry about the confusion with Bilkis. I made a mess of what I was trying do and I seem to have forgotten about merge and move procedure for a moment. I guess this calls from me to trout myself (notably, the first trout)

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

DTM (talk) 13:17, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

		What a cute puppy!
		This cute puppy has been given to you for your recent moving performance. Don't forget to train it. Fiddle Faddle 15:40, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

AfD Closure

I noticed that you closed the AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bilkis Dadi today, despite being the one who created the AfD discussion. I remember that a nominator can only withdraw an AfD and close it as keep/speedy keep if all the votes there are for Keep. But, there's one delete vote at least which makes me believe that your AfD closure wasn't right. Any comments? ─ The Aafī (^talk) 17:11, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The Aafī, as you can see above, I admit I messed up my with Bilkis related activities; I rushed the closure and jumbled the page moves and merges. If you feel the AFD closure was incorrect, please restore it to an ongoing state so that it can continue according to normal procedure. I did notice the delete and the comment apart from the ayes, I shouldn't have closed it that soon. DTM (talk) 10:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Another mention

I see Ajai Shukla using your map of the Chushul sector in his talk in this debate. Congratulations again! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:37, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh ho! I missed the mention! DTM (talk) 08:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Anchal Vohra

Can you see if you can do something about the page which I created? I see that you made a quick decision on the Bilkis Dadi AfD discussion. Lots of experienced Indian journalists do not seem to be present on Wikipedia. Even Mihir Sharma's page is looking pretty thin. I can easily add content there. Just because no one is adding content to a page doesn't mean it's not there. Same with the Anchal Vohra page. That's what I feel. Even the CEO of Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation didn't have a Wikipedia page. So, I created one for him. Now, it's in Draft.

Well ... I am new here. So. AltruisticHomoSapien (talk) 21:06, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Pages in this conversation:

• Anchal Vohra > Currently an AFD nom
• Bilkis Dadi > You just mentioned this without exactly stating if anything needs to be done
• Mihir Sharma > One reference
• Draft:Mark Suzman > This has no references. Even the reference used is a primary one. Can easily be improved.

Can you see if you can do something about the page which I created?; which page are you talking about?

DTM (talk) 08:20, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Great work! AltruisticHomoSapien (talk) 21:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

"Great work"; is this related to anything specific or just generally? Either way, thanks! DTM (talk) 08:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

AltruisticHomoSapien, I have a new policy as written below. I can't accept barnstars until you let me know what it is for. No reason no barnstar. Vauge reason no barnstar. DTM (talk) 15:17, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Missing cite in North West Nuclear Weapons Research and Design Academy

The article cites "Mehrotra 2000" but no such source is listed in bibliography. Can you please add? Also, suggest installing a script to highlight such errors in the future. All you need to do is copy and paste importScript('User:Svick/HarvErrors.js'); // Backlink: [[User:Svick/HarvErrors.js]] to your common.js page. Thanks, Renata (talk) 21:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Renata A previous edit deleted the bibliography. The usage of the citation should be alright now. DTM (talk) 07:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the script suggestion. DTM (talk) 07:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Back to Depsang

I was strugglng to read the Sandhu book (which you will see cited at Depsang Plains), but eventually found a really nice summary here:

• P. J. S. Sandhu, It Is Time to Accept How Badly India Misread Chinese Intentions in 1962 – and 2020, The Wire, 21 July 2020.

This is a must-read for everybody thinking about the present conflict. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Retaliate with short, fierce and sudden fire power, [...]; the shells may cross the border but personnel should not cross the border. In today's language it would be, "shells and missiles and drones and aircraft and satellites may cross the border but personnel should not cross the border".

The question that Major Gen (retd) Sandhu asks is > Why has China suddenly tried to change the rules of the game and how should India deal with the changed narrative? If the question was asked by someone from China, I assume the question would change to > "Why has India suddenly tried to change the rules of the game and how should China deal with the changed narrative?"

I read the whole thing without noticing the date. I was surprised to see it was published in July. It sounded as if it was just written. DTM (talk) 09:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The question as to why India "changed the rules of the game" is easy to read from the tons of the newsreports and commentaries.

The date of the article is surprising in that it didn't show up on our searches till now. The Wire doesn't understand how we find information. It thinks that people read it like they read a newspaper. (I found the article only because I searched for "Red Top Hill", which apparently only Sandhu knows about. But the location of this place is still not clear.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh, the most valuable thing for me from the article was the mention that the Depsang Bulge was "straightened out", so that I didn't have to synthesize it myself. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:45, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

DYK for India–Tibet relations

On 8 October 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article India–Tibet relations, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the number of Tibetan refugees in India decreased by 44 per cent between 2011 and 2018? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/India–Tibet relations. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, India–Tibet relations), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:02, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		Thanks for maintaining the integrity of the Wikipedia. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست (talk) 19:26, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست, thank you! But why? What have I done that helps in maintaining Wikipedia's integrity? DTM (talk) 09:45, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think I can accept this until you let me know what it is for. I think I will have to make this a rule from now, no reason no barnstar. vauge reason no barnstar. DTM (talk) 15:15, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@DiplomatTesterMan: after Kautilya3 tagged you on my page, I was curious who the user was, so I looked at your contributions and found your updates on Timeline of the 2020 China–India skirmishes and Shaheen Bagh Protests very useful. But, if you are annoyed by the barnstar, I will remove it. Let me know. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست (talk) 02:39, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست No no no! No need to remove it. You've given the explanation. I'm happy that you noticed the one on Shaheen Bagh. Thanks! DTM (talk) 14:05, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

DiplomatTesterMan, got it. Again, good work. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست (talk) 23:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) He's a new editor, with an advertised user-information of Pakistani, who appears to alternate between gnomish edits on Pakistan related pages and POV edits on India-related. In terms of my interaction, at first, he was opposing me obliquely (e.g. should Kamala Harris be described as South Asian American (her senate website's language, and my position) or Indian-American (his position)) and then more directly and persistingly. Soon after I saw him handing out barnstars to various people who had either also opposed me or taken an independent position. Sometimes they are even Pakistan Merit Barnstars! Very unusual if you ask me. But you don't fit the statistic; I don't recall you opposing me, or vice versa. Anyway, here was my two cents. At the worst this could be a misguided attempt at soliciting support; at best, it could be honest appreciation, and the POV implication accidental. I'm not sure, but it bears watching. There is also the issue of devaluing indeed deflating the significance of a barnstar. Although there are no benchmarks there, and they indeed can be handed out by anonymous users, they tend to be more direct in terms of what it is they appreciate, and less profligate (he's handed out 20+ barnstars in the last two weeks). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:45, 18 October 2020 (UTC) Updated Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:53, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, thank you for the comments. While you said some points that were already on my mind, your explanation covers a broader scope. As for including barnstars into the background checks of users, I think I will lay out some brief rules/guidelines at the top of this talk page related to giving/awarding barnstars... DTM (talk) 15:21, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	My first ever barnstar to anyone goes to you for your contribution to several articles, especially for putting hard work into multiple IndoChina articles, ladakh related articles, infrastructure related articles such as India-China Border Roads and for promptly creating China's salami slicing article. Thank you! 58.182.176.169 (talk) 15:31, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much!! .... you added "and for promptly creating China's salami slicing article"... this made me laugh. Let's hope the article can survive tougher scrutiny as well and develop for the better. DTM (talk) 13:30, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Indian administered territories adjoining China administered territories

Template:Indian administered territories adjoining China administered territories has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page.  MehrajMir (talk) 14:04, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Mehrajmir13, long time no see! Where have you been all this time? As for this deletion nom, you'll get the template deleted. I would also agree to delete it. DTM (talk) 17:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Template deleted via CSD. Will do the cleanup. DTM (talk) 18:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Missing cite in Dumchele

The article cites "Bhattacharji 2012" but no such source is listed in the bibliography. Can you please add? Also, suggest installing a script to highlight such errors in the future. All you need to do is copy and paste importScript('User:Svick/HarvErrors.js'); // Backlink: [[User:Svick/HarvErrors.js]] to your common.js page. Thanks, Renata (talk) 02:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done. I took care of the citation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy Diwali 2020

Happy Diwali

Hello DiplomatTesterMan,
Hope you are doing well.
Wishing you a happy, safe, and prosperous Diwali. Stay safe. Regards. --Titodutta (talk) 18:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Titodutta, a very belated thank you!

I saw a wonderful wish this season - Wish you all a very happy Diwali, Kali Puja, New Year, Naraka Chaturdashi, Kedara Gauri Vrata, Children's Day, Lakshmi Puja, Hanuman Puja, Bandi Chhor Divas, Mahavir Nirvana Divas, and Tihar, dear India. DTM (talk) 05:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Jointness and integration in the Indian military

Hello! Your submission of Jointness and integration in the Indian military at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! SL93 (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Jointness and integration in the Indian military

Hello! Your submission of Jointness and integration in the Indian military at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Kashmir 1934

Hi DTM, hope you had a good Diwali! Glad to see you back.

I had the 1934 Jammu and Kashmir Praja Sabha election for ages in my drafts and you spurred me to get it out. There is a lot about pre-independence Kashmir that is not well-understood. (Not that post-independence Kashmir is well understood either, but at least we talk about it.)

I couldn't get the Infobox on the page to work. I wonder if you can take a look. Pinging also Arjayay and Gotitbro. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done - I think - Template:Infobox election states
"type = <!-- presidential, parliamentary, legislative, primary, or by-election --><!-- MANDATORY, and limited to the preceding five types -->"
It previously said "princely state" - not one of the five options - Arjayay (talk) 08:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, I saw a wonderful seasons wish this Diwali — Wish you all a very happy Diwali, Kali Puja, New Year, Naraka Chaturdashi, Kedara Gauri Vrata, Children's Day, Lakshmi Puja, Hanuman Puja, Bandi Chhor Divas, Mahavir Nirvana Divas, and Tihar, dear India. Glad to see you back — not fully back as yet!

I am glad you got the 1934 page out! The bibliography as usual is solid and helped me expand the election in JK page. DTM (talk) 05:31, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Yup, Tihar is all seasons rolled into one. With Biden back, there is hope! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:33, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Durrani's new book

Have you heard about Asad Durrani's new book "Honour Among Spies"? It's a "thinly disguised fiction", pretty interesting. And I think I see enough reviews on a quick Google search for a new Wikipedia article. Regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 05:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 7 December 2020. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:35, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Pls split the article

I have expanded the DG Sea Connect. Please split it into 2 articles by moving the DG_Sea_Connect#Other_RORO_in_India section to a new namespace RORO ferries in India, also copy paste the "see also" section into the new article from the existing "DG Sea Connect". Apart from that no other chanegs are needed as the sources/references used in both are mutually exclusive. Thanks in advance. 58.182.176.169 (talk) 10:37, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Hold on a minute! You know how to split articles right? DTM (talk) 13:34, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Split done! DTM (talk) 10:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Three Warfares

Hello! Your submission of Three Warfares at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 21:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Study on Hindi, Urdu, and English Wikipedia articles about the Jammu and Kashmir conflict

A short research paper on the revocation of Article 370 of the Constitution of India and other recent events in and concerning the region of Jammu and Kashmir was published in June 2020 titled -

"Wiki HUEs: Understanding Wikipedia practices through Hindi, Urdu, and English takes on evolving regional conflict" Proceedings of the 2020 International Conference on Information and Communication Technologies and Development. ICTD2020. Guayaquil, Ecuador. Authored by Molly G. Hickman, Viral Pasad, Harsh Sanghavi, Jacob Thebault-Spieker, Sang Won Lee (Computer Science, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Blacksburg, Virginia)source

Five editors were interviewed for this study — 1 from Pakistan, 1 from US, 3 from India. The report is five pages. A paragraph says

As another incident on the English Kashmir conflict page (A2), two editors made the same revision at two different times (January 22, 2019 and August 6, 2019), removing a section related to human rights violations by Indian forces against Kashmiris. On both occasions, the removal was undone by another editor within fewer than fifteen minutes [1, 2].

MarkH21, just for your information if you haven't already seen it, this quoted line refers to one of your edits. Signpost also mentioned this research study SP Recent Research August 2020 DTM (talk) 05:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Huh, very interesting! Thanks for the heads up! — MarkH₂₁^talk 08:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Jointness and integration in the Indian military

On 2 December 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Jointness and integration in the Indian military, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that inter-service cooperation was one of the most important lessons of the Bangladesh war for India? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Jointness and integration in the Indian military. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Jointness and integration in the Indian military), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Tibet

fr:Tibet_(homonymie). The French have it cased. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I should have been paying more attention during my french classes when I was young! That aside, have it cased — do you mean something related to the disambg page — Tibet (disambiguation) — or gendered? Going through the other languages es:Tíbet (desambiguación) and de:Tibet (Begriffsklärung)........ I don't quite follow? DTM (talk) 14:51, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

cased as in complete! DTM (talk) 16:26, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, fixed and perfected. That is just the index page. If you go through the individual pages, you will see the substance. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:54, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, funnily, I tried making Tibet (disambiguation) more like the French one fr:Tibet_(homonymie) — and got reverted. Now I am not going to justify my actions using the French page since that could lead to the French page being sorted out too! :D DTM (talk) 13:41, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Actually, let's see. Bkonrad —My edits which you reverted were inspired from the French version of the page. Does the French version need cleaning up too? DTM (talk) 13:46, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

And sorry for the tag over here, you can shift the discussion to the respective talk page of course. DTM (talk) 13:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I know nothing about the standards used for disambiguation on the French Wikipedia. No reason to expect them to be the same from one language to another. older ≠ wiser 15:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

China's salami slice strategy

Bhai ram ram,

This is often talked topic, but did not come across any wiki article. There is salami tactics which had one sentence which said "India accuses china of salami slice tactic". I spent few hours and expanded it significantly, added dimensions/elements/aspects/components of the strategy, and described each component with examples. Here is the result China's salami slice strategy

I have piped it to all other related articles to drive multidirectional traffic, and consequently better chances of improvement in the article. Please review/enhance, my first cut.

I think we should portion it out into a brand new article. If you agree then please go ahead and do so, in such a manner that existing piping to the existing anchored section would somehow redirect to the new article. If it is not possible, then let me know, I know of remember which places I have piped it to, perhaps nearly 10 or so. Thanks. 58.182.176.169 (talk) 15:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks bhai for portioning out. I intend to make the following enhancement:

A. Risks: 1. to perpetrator/China and 2. to victim/target nation, will use this tis lowy institute article as starting point.

B. Nation specific subsections: Aggregate info on all 7 dimensions of salamai slicing to explain how China as targeted specific nation, i.e. subsection on each nation

C. Summary table: it will have 9 columns, 1 for the country name, 7 columns for 7 dimensions of slicing, 1 for comments. Capture Y/N to demonstrate which dimension as been deployed by China against each nation (along with Y/N, in the cell I will add piped specific articles in parenthesis)

Let me know if you have other suggestions or come across some interesting source.

This seems like multi year project.

Tanks again. Hugs. 58.182.176.169 (talk) 12:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

58.182.176.169, not just a multi year project but a multi lifetime project. Even though I have portioned it out without questioning the content in any way, the content has certain "grey area" issues which I will try to chalk out on the talk page sooner or later. You asked for a "review/enhance", this is pending. DTM (talk) 13:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I have made a few changes, not sure if it is enhanching the article as you had put it. Regards. DTM (talk) 15:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Names of new ITBP K9 soldiers

ITBP Belgian Malinois pups — "By naming these little K9 soldiers with 100 per cent desi names and that too from the areas guarded by the force, the combat dogs wing of the force aims to acknowledge its own legacy and ethos" (source)

1. Ane-la (Hanle)
2. Galwan
3. Sasoma
4. Shyok
5. Chang-Chenmo
6. Chip-Chap
7. Daulat
8. Rezang
9. Rango
10. Charding
11. Imis (Hanle)
12. Yula
13. Srijap
14. Sultan-Chuksu
15. Mukhpri (Rezang La)
16. Chung-Thung
17. Khardungi (Khardung La)

Spot any redlinks which are already articles, just not linked correctly? DTM (talk) 14:14, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Sultan-Chuksu.... where are you? DTM (talk) 14:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

here! a Village in the Nubra tehsil DTM (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Need to talk to you urgently

Hi, there. This is Mohsin Kamal, a journalist based in Kashmir. I wanted to talk to you regarding something. Is it possible for you to drop a mail at mohsinkamal286@gmail.com, please.

Thanks Hoping to hear from you very soon. Mohsin Kamal (talk) 18:03, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I dropped you a mail. But I would prefer that the conversation happened here if you don't mind. DTM (talk) 07:39, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Could you please check the mail instead? I'll be grateful. Thanks Mohsin Kamal (talk) 13:38, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Incomplete DYK nomination

Hello! Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/Mental health in India at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; if you would like to continue, please link the nomination to the nominations page as described in step 3 of the nomination procedure. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with {{db-g7}}, or ask a DYK admin. Thank you. DYKHousekeepingBot (talk) 12:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for 2020 Indian farmers' protest

On 7 December 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article 2020 Indian farmers' protest, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:35, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2021!

Hello DiplomatTesterMan, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2021. Happy editing, Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:28, 25 December 2020 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Fylindfotberserk, thank you so much! This Christmas, apart from YouTube recommending some wonderful Christmas songs and unpacking and setting up our 20+ year old Christmas tree once again , I got a WhatsApp forward with Jingle Bells sung in delightful Bhojpuri; and another forward with Santa dancing to an Indianised Ed Sheeran's Shape of You in a magnificent lower resembling a dhoti/lungi/patiala and gifting us the COVID-19 vaccine! A very merry Christmas to you too and a Happy New Year... DTM (talk) 16:04, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks man and thak you for those videos . - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

Happy editing! Wishing you and your loved ones a great next year and beyond. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 03:59, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria ښه راغلاست, I always wondered what baklava was whenever I would see it among the food gift items on Wiki; so this time I clicked the link to the article. I have never had it! Something to look forward to indeed! You can't actually guess from this image as to what it is other than say a pie or pastry though the full description reminds me of Gujia (yum). Thank you for the wishes and happy editing to you too! DTM (talk) 13:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

It is very good. For me, it is for sure one of the world's best types of dessert. Give it a try. I am not sure where you live, but from the pictures you have uploaded, it seems like you have been to Delhi in India, as such, I Googled it and this website provides locations where to find the best Baklava in Delhi. Give it a try. Happy New Year! "Indulging Our Insatiable Sweet Tooth, We Found The Best Places For Baklava in Delhi" Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 16:29, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Karima Baloch

On 27 December 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Karima Baloch, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 11:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Voting for "Military Historian of the Year" and "Military history newcomer of the year" closing

G'day all, voting for the WikiProject Military history "Military Historian of the Year" and "Military history newcomer of the year" is about to close, so if you haven't already, click on the links and have your say before 23:59 (GMT) on 30 December! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:34, 28 December 2020 (UTC) for the coord team

Welcome to the 2021 WikiCup!

Happy New Year and Happy New WikiCup! The competition begins today and all article creators, expanders, improvers and reviewers are welcome to take part. If you have already signed up, your submissions page can be found here. If you have not yet signed up, you can add your name here and the judges will set up your submissions page. Any questions on the rules or on anything else should be directed to one of the judges, or posted to the WikiCup talk page. Signups will close at the end of January, and the first round will end on 26 February; the 64 highest scorers at that time will move on to round 2. We thank Vanamonde93 and Godot13, who have retired as judges, and we thank them for their past dedication. The judges for the WikiCup this year are Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs · email) and Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs · email). Good luck! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:List of locations along the Line of Actual Control

Hello, DiplomatTesterMan. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:List of locations along the Line of Actual Control, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Draft space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for article space.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion under CSD G13. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it. You may request userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available here.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 14:01, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Chinese media

Health warning. This report from BBC-Chinese comes labelled as "Complicated". I hope you can manage to read it anyway. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 04:20, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Karima Baloch

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Karima Baloch you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Z1720 -- Z1720 (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Karima Baloch

The article Karima Baloch you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Karima Baloch for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Z1720 -- Z1720 (talk) 02:22, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

GAN of Karima Baloch

Hi DTM, I placed your good article nomination of Karima Baloch on hold a couple of days ago, but haven't received a response. Are you interested in continuing this nomination? If so, please comment on the GAN at Talk:Karima Baloch/GA1. If not, please let me know so I can fail the nomination remove it from the GAN list. Let me know what you want to do. Z1720 (talk) 22:29, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Karima Baloch

The article Karima Baloch you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Karima Baloch for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Z1720 -- Z1720 (talk) 15:22, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thank You Luckylukee81 (talk) 12:51, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I will accept this barnstar, no questions asked. Thank you very much. The original barnstar is one of the coolest ones. DTM (talk) 11:45, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Template:Map of Ladakh

I am annoyed by Template:Map of Ladakh. The reason is that it appears in a maintenance list and I have no clue where the problem is coming from. The maintenance list says that it has a link to de disambiguation page Hanle but I can not find any link to that page. They are all set to Hanle (village) or unlinked. Can you help me find the naughty link? The Banner talk 22:32, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

The Banner, in this edit I have identified the "naughty link". On removing it the issue seems to sort itself out. While it was correctly linked to Hanle (village), it was still directing itself towards the disambiguation page. I assume this has something to do with the how the "link" parameter is used in the "Location map many" template. I hope this sorts out the issue raised. DTM (talk) 02:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Usually I am quite able to fix links to disambiguation pages but in this case I could not even find the culprit. The Banner talk 10:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Moral vaccum

Wikiepdia doesn't have an article on Moral vacuum? This is a wonderful five minute scene from Yes Minister:—

Bernard: Well, I was just wondering if the minister was right, actually.

Sir Humphrey: Very unlikely. What about?

Bernard : About ends and means. I mean, will I end up as a moral vacuum too?

Sir Humphrey : Oh, I hope so, Bernard. If you work hard enough.

Bernard Woolley: I actually feel rather downcast. If it's our job to carry out government policies, shouldn't we believe in them?

Sir Humphrey : Huh, what an extraordinary idea.

DTM (talk) 12:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Chip Chap post

Gurdip Singh Kler says:

The Chip Chap river Indian Army post of thirty men held at bay 500 Chinese for a whole day and at the end of fighting only four of them survived, while Chinese had more than 150 causalities.

Sandhu and co. give quite a different narrative, which we put on the Depsang Plains page. Who is right? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Kautilya3, I do not have the entire text of Kler's book, only Sandhu's, so I assume the same incident is being talked about including the same companies and battalions. Just based on these two sources, one thing is clear, there were more Chinese than Indians. Sandhu et. al. put the ratio at 10:1 while Kler put it at 16:1. The figures of the death varies largely so nothing can be said.

So this leaves us with our perceived credibility of each book. For me, Sandhu et al have foremost credibility here. However, this is not to say that Kler is not credible. That book is credible in its own right.

However on Wikipedia, according to what I have picked up of written and unwritten tendencies, a good practice would be to at least state that there are deviations in figures in a explanatory footnote. Here I don't think the deviation by Kler needs to be placed inline, also because I haven't acquired the entire book (or even that page) as yet. DTM (talk) 11:55, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

This is obviously the "red top hill" post that Sandhu and co. write about. Based on their description, I assess that it is at 35.3346°N 78.0785°E / 35.3346; 78.0785. It is a strong position. But I find it hard to believe that 30 men could hold off a battalion for a whole day. Sandhu et al. say 2 hours. Please look for corroboration for either view in other sources that you run into. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

There are examples in world history of a small number holding off a large number for a hard to believe period of time. DTM (talk) 04:49, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

References

India and the Non-Aligned Movement

Hi DiplomatTesterMan, I've removed some uncited text—including the 1980s section, which was marked uncited in March 2019—per WP:VERIFY. I also removed lots of POV text and waffle (padding, fluff), and marked "Early developments" as uincited. Other text marked uncited last month is still n the article because I considered it important for context but it should be cited at the earliest opportunity, or it may be removed at any time. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 22:16, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Baffle gab1978, thank you the copyedit! DTM (talk) 08:40, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Shiv Kunal Verma

I don't have access to the book. But the review indicates that it is an opinionated book. Try not to cite it. We have plenty of academic sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:02, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Kautilya3, yes. He outright clarifies that when he says he was raised in the same battalion that was massacred in Namka Chu. However some facts like a parliament reference are universal. DTM (talk) 08:59, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

The facts, may be. But the attributed commentary in the Reactions section is quite UNDUE. When we are dealing with an international conflict, we need to treat countries as units rather than as cats fighting among themselves. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:03, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I was about to object, until I saw the article for WWII, only nations as units indeed. DTM (talk) 13:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Pageviews article for The Signpost

DTM,

Thanks for your efforts in trying to make statistical sense from the Signpost pageviews data! I consider this one of the most useful articles of the year for me as editor-in-chief, answering the question "How can we select or solicit articles that our main readership, the community of Wikipedia editors, want to read?" It is also important to many of our readers: "Is The Signpost fulfilling its mandate of serving this community."

In short, I consider this article as akin to an annual report of The Signpost.

The short answer to your questions at User:DiplomatTesterMan/SP_outlier_table is "I don't know." I'll ping Igordebraga and HaeB who should have some ideas.This relates to questions at User:DiplomatTesterMan/SP_outlier_table] and a future article like

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-03-01/Special_report.

The long answer to your question on outliers is:

• The distribution of any data related to Wikipedia pageviews is "normally highly non-normal", i.e it's usually highly skewed to the right and non-Gausian.
• The skew to the right - some unusually big numbers or "outliers" - makes some usual statistical tools - like average (mean) - difficult to interpret.
• The cause of the skew might be:
  • some rather very good or very bad journalism!
  • Internal controversy - which was really good (or bad) for us to have brought up. We touched a nerve.
  • posting links on other platforms, which can be
    • good - an indication of quality journalism and interest by the outside world, or
    • bad - somebody is trying to manipulate our pageviews or trying to make some type of point.
• "Manipulation" might possibly be seen by looking at pageviews more than 2 months out. Are these the main source of readership?

A very short and over-simplified answer: regard anything over 16,000 pageviews on The Signpost as an outlier. Or (I suppose I have a COI) separate out the 3 possible outliers for this year for a brief examination *but* don't remove them from the overall results.

I wish I had a better answer.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:28, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for these thoughts. This is a lot. Last time just your mention of the word "outlier" opened up such an important new section in this report. I was hearing it for the first time but it made loads of sense. Thanks! DTM (talk) 04:13, 26 January 2021 (UTC)