User talk:Martinevans123/Archive 16

Betty

Seems Tenebris in Latin means darkness. Weird. – Sca (talk) 17:28, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Alas we never got Pogo in the UK. "Even if posting was not the very close consensus, the discussion is getting unproductive to the level that it is better to leave it as it is and close this discussion." I can appreciate the Tone of that close. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't have much of a notion of his general demeanor. Censorious? – Sca (talk) 17:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

I've always found him a fair closer. I like to start off with unproductive discussion, so it never has to deteriorate. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:44, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Good strategy. Might be useful in diplomacy, formerly governed by projectiles – defined by Ambrose Bierce as "the final arbiter in international disputes." – Sca (talk) 20:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

President Merkin Muffley: Gentlemen! you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Speaking of int'l relations, ever seen Window to Paris? Hilarious. You can access it (with Eng subs) here, if YouTube will let you. – Sca (talk) 20:12, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Never seen that. Thanks for the link! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Let me know if it works for you. (Good to have a bottle of водка at hand while watching.) – Sca (talk) 20:29, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

All seems fine, thanks. I will try and cast it tomorrow. But I never touch the stuff, comrade, preferring the odd Amy Winehouse cocktail. [1]Martinevans123 (talk) 20:35, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, if you like the taste of Juniper berries.... – Sca (talk) 13:34, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Mpls., my old hometown. – Sca (talk) 13:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion Goodbye Babe was far superior. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:24, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Very vaguely recall that one from my HS days. I was more interested in that boy from Hibbing & Duluth. – Sca (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Hibbing & Duluth? Wasn't that one of your Minnesota department stores? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:19, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Nah, both are Up North. – Sca (talk) 14:46, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah yeah, like the girl. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

The same. – Sca (talk) 15:08, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Half an hour into re-re-re-watching "Окно в Париж." You? – Sca (talk) 15:27, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

It's very dark lol. And the subtitles won't cast, damn it! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:59, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Only in the beginning. There are many bright/funny episodes in it. But I wonder why the subs don't work for in the UK? (The Wiki article on the film is pathetically thin.) – Sca (talk) 16:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

I expect so. It looks funny. I can get Русские субтитры, but not English! So I am confined to my laptop, it seems. We'll have to have a go at Window to Paris. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:02, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Hey, I'm emailing you a fairly detailed (English!) review that you might use to guide you through the movie – which BTW is available here in its original Russian form. – Sca (talk) 17:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Guess I must have oversold Window. – Sca (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Not at all. The first 20 minutes were very good. Especially at that price! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

In that case, may the farce (фарс) be with you. I watched the last part today, a bit hard to follow. – Sca (talk) 19:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Nine years!

Martin, happy 2022, - I had no time yet for resolutions, but friendship is the motto, and you are one of my friends here, with whom I can cry and laugh. Too many are missed, but you are there! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda. Oh yes, I'm a right old Wiki Queen, I am. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC) .... except it's more like this, I guess.

Thank you for more inspirational music! How do you like what I heard to start the year, beginning at St. Sylvester? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:17, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll have to "bone up" on that hymnwriter, if you don't mind! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 3 January 2022 (UTC) ..I find one from Aegidienkirche, Braunschweig: [2]

Bone (Latin) means "good" - the video is in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Thanks for enlightening me. Shucks. Is it too late to start all over again?? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:52, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Rothbury

You nice old thing, you! Thanks, and Happy New Year DBaK (talk) 19:18, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Lol. Less of the old, you young scallywag! And to you. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Epiphany

January songs

in friendship

Happy new year, in friendship! - Epiphany seems like a good day to say so, after a Bavarian peasants' mass (sorry, on the train home, no recent pics of that - just keep watching), and two DYK, even with a pic I took. I enjoyed meetings with friends in real life, and wish you many of those. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

yesterday's snow and today's music in memory --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

2022 began happily with vacation. I uploaded images but stopped at 22 January - click on songs. 30 January means 10 years of Precious. It's also the birthday of a friend, - I'm so happy I mentioned his DYK on his 90th birthday when he was still alive. I have a great singer on DYK whom I heard, Elena Guseva, and wait for a Recent death appearance of Georg Christoph Biller whom I saw in action. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the music news, Gerda! How will we ever get used to a Good Ol' Laff after 16 wonderful years of Angular Miracle?? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

update: we have now Guseva pictured, Biller pictured better (but still not on the Main page), and one more day of my pics - I had the miracle on the Main page the other day, but she brought not as many clicks as expected, St. Martin, Moosach, - should have said that Benedict XVI began his career there, but found too late. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Short descs

I searched, and annoyingly I can't find the previous discussion. I'd like some consensus/MOS guidance on this personally so I've started a new discussion here. Popcornfud (talk) 00:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for this link. Even Twitter gets 280! Martinevans123 (talk) 10:27, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Jack Dromey

On 9 January 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Jack Dromey, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Black Kite (talk) 11:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks.Martinevans123 (talk) 12:00, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello

I want to know if the article SpaceX Starship that I write is too pro-Elon Musk or not. Since you are a regular at dealing with these people on his talk page, I think you are an expert at this. What do you think about the rocket's article? Should I tone it down? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:43, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello CactiStaccingCrane. I will try and take a look. But I am certainly not an exert on that page. I have found that the best way to "deal with those people" is to avoid them! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:16, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree as well. Anyways, thanks for your comments in advance! CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:18, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Reply on relevant talk page

I have replied to your question on the talk page regarding "randy Armcandy". Cheers! 89.8.82.25 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Stay off my talk page.

I explicitly told you not to continue posting about that on my talk page. You ignored me, so I removed your comment, and now I telling you not to post on my talk page at all, unless it is required by Wikipedia rules. Meters (talk) 23:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

You think there's a risk that crackpot conspiracy theories about the British Royal Family being Illuminati reptiles will be taken seriously? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:46, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Good old Boris

Good old Boris, must be great to be World King at last. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:06, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, whine and cheese. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

But no more late night cheese... Cringeworthy, I think it's fair to say. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Let us pray. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

More hot air than a Vicars and Tarts party? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I suppose a stinking bishop with a spotted dick could give anyone gas. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:10, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Cripes! Canapés and Bolly all round! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Crepes! --Tryptofish (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

omg, brillant. Winner of the Best Wiki-pun of 2022 so far. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

It's a meme bonanza! [3] [4] [5] --♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that last one says it all. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:33, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

And, in case he's feeling a wee bit glum, here's the lovely Nico Grey and crew with a jolly tune to cheer him up. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) OMG my granny (I would say "Of Blessed Memory" but, ah, no.) used to quote that frakkin' thing incessantly. It was not uplifting. She was not a happy woman. As poems go it is sadly lacking in daffodils. Thank you very much for sending me into a bout of PTSD. Gah. DBaK (talk) 22:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Curiously, the phrase "looking like the Wreck of the Hesperus" was one often used by my own mother, and others of her generation, to describe someone (sometimes even themselves), who was not in the best sartorial condition. You know, a bit like our own dear Prime Minister on a bad day. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:33, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Close resemblance, but only one of them makes much sense ... DBaK (talk) 22:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Now I've got PTSD from that image of Boris on a bad day – cf that other Boris, in makeup. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

It's true.[6]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:24, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

'Ere mate.... you weren't finkin' of ditchin' BoJo were ya?? Need a bit of spondulix round your manor do ya?? Wred Wragg to a Bull 123 (talk) 13:21, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Meanwhile... over in Bristol... it's the lovely Boris Pollard... Martinevans123 (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Straight up, guv.[7]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I just wanted to point out that, yes, Bill Conlon, really is a country singer from Portaferry, County Down: [8]. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:05, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

"Have you had an accident or been ambushed by a cake at your place of work?? Lawyers4U can help get you that compensation!"

I think we all owe " Parliamentary Private Cake Secretary" Conor Burns a huge vote of thanks: [9]. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:55, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

The best they could come up with was a Union Jack themed cake? How crushingly predictable. Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:42, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes indeed, quite pitiful. No Surrender! cake? They could have tried a BoJo-fied Cookie Puss or even Better than Carrie cake?? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 26 January 2022 (UTC) "He does tell exceeedigly good lies"

Whoopie porky pie cake? (Hitler's) Big Dog cake? Tory poll cake?? The list is endless. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:54, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Let's hope he reads the Sue Gray report and sacks himself. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

With a musical accompaniment. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:09, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Or at least a seaside vacation. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:11, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

tuuuuuuuunne!! Forget Lulu Lytle, Carrie should have got Jane in. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:24, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Bo-Jo: "What's that you say Sooty? Soo's written a nasty old report about me??"

Soo: "Don't worry Mr Matthew, that nice Mrs Plod has made sure we can sweep it all the under the carpet!!"

Bo-Jo: "hooray!!"

Sir Blondi Pfeffel: Cripes, Suzy! Quick, throw me that tea-tray a bit sharpish!!"

Suzy Yvette Carte-Blanche: (dressed as French maid): "Watch art, Meester Pfeffel, zey are on to you!!"

Mr Plod:* (waving tiny truncheon): "'ello, 'ello, 'ello! What's all this mularkey, then? Not so fast, Your Highness, we'd like to see you down at the station!!"

Sir Blondi Pfeffel: "Not likely, old Billy Dickington!! You won't take me alive!" (drops trousers to reveal candy striped shorts)..... etc. etc. (runs for next 3 weeks, matinées available)

(* with apologies to PC Christopher Rhone of Studland in Dorset. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:16, 29 January 2022 (UTC) )

And so the much-heralded "Sue Gray update". Hardly the earth-shattering wrecking ball we were all anticipating. And in reply that pitiful broken record performance from the despatch box..... not only did Sir Keir get accused of protecting predatory sex offender Jimmy Savile, but the entire Labour front bench get accused of being habitual drug abusers. Thank goodness for the steadfast Ian Blackford and the powerful eloquence of Caroline Lucas and so many, many more.... Martinevans123 (talk) 11:29, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

From last year: "Boris Johnson’s pathological relationship with the truth" - New Statesman, July 2021. 16:30, 4 February 2022 (UTC) "Great Leaders Through History"

Telegraph or Sunday Telegraph

Martin, I was the subject of several press articles when I joined Ros Altmann's campaign for compensation for lost pensions in 2004. The Sunday Telegraph has different editorial staff and different deadlines c.f. the daily paper. The two sections don't compete but competition is fierce between journalists in the same section. Also journalists may be personally liable to libel charges. One article took a day to write and 2 days for 'lawyering' though that was before the infamous McLibel_case changed the law. I still have a "letter before action" though I haven't shown my wife! Unbelievably the Sunday Times may have different political views to the weekly paper.

Take care JRPG (talk) 16:31, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi JRPG. That's all very interesting, and thanks for telling me. I'm just wondering why you posted that here. My quandary, over at Big Dog Daddy, was just over The Telegraph vs The Daily Telegraph. But then the source is usually just cite web anyway, which means it's just 'Telegraph'?! Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Peter Seabrook

On 19 January 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Peter Seabrook, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Jeffrey Dahmer

Semi-protected edit request : Hi, I think I have met your requests for: "These need reliable secondary sources, showing they are notable examples." on the Jeffrey Dahmer Page (Media -> Music) : Talk:Jeffrey_Dahmer

could you please have a look? thanks in advance. H8eternal (talk) 08:16, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I will try and have a look. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

ok I think I found an article that meets the demands now ( - source about Dahmer and his impact on metal music, mentioning the Slayer and the Macabre songs [we have to skip the Soulfly then]) please have a look again. thx.H8eternal (talk) 09:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I did look thanks, and I read the article. I suspect someone may ask if invisibleoranges.com is a WP:RS. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Invisible Oranges as you can see has a wiki-page of its own. so I guess it should be a WP:RS what do you think? H8eternal (talk) 10:20, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

As do the National Enquirer, the Daily Star and FrontPage Magazine. But, by all means, ask at WT:RSP. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:26, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

hi Martin I think we got things sorted with WT:RSP. they say it's allo good. have a look please at Talk:Jeffrey_Dahmer again please. thank you. H8eternal (talk) 08:46, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 6 February 2022 (UTC) p.s. are you related to H3eternal at all?

RIP Barry Cryer

The late, great Barry Cryer's Ultimate Parrot Joke:

A woman walks past a petshop and sees a magnificent parrot in the window.

She rushes inside and says, 'How much for the parrot?'

'£5,' says the shopkeeper.

'Only £5? I've got to have it,' says the woman. 'Why's it so cheap?'

'Well, I must confess, it was brought up in a brothel,' said the shopkeeper. 'And, to put it politely, it has quite an extensive vocabulary.'

'Never mind,' says the woman. 'At that price, I'll take it.'

So she takes the parrot home, puts its cage in the living room and takes the cover off.

'New place - very nice,' says the parrot.

Then the woman's two daughters walk in.

'New place, new girls - very nice,' says the parrot.

Then the woman's husband walks in, and the parrot says, 'Oh hello, Keith!'

A true giant of British comedy. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm so old, I've stopped buying green bananas.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:54, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

"Jewish scientists are reported to have discovered five new ways to disappoint their mothers." Martinevans123 (talk) 17:24, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Barry Cryer

On 29 January 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Barry Cryer, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

One of his favourites
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
An 82 year old man goes to his doctor. 'I want a complete physical examination. I'm about to get married,' says the old man. 'How old are you?' the doctor asks. 'I'm 82 and she's 24. I want a complete examination to make sure everything's working properly,' says the old man. The Doctor said, '24! Well, I'll do the examination. But it might be better if you also got a young lodger. You know, company for your wife.' 'Yes, yes, what a good idea,' says the old man. The doctor meets him again a few months later. 'Did you get married?' asks the doctor. 'How's your young bride?' 'She's pregnant,' says the old man proudly. 'And, erm, how's the lodger?' says the doctor nervously. 'She's pregnant, too,' says the old man.

100 drummers

This is my kind of zoom call.[10]. They don't seem to be aware of Glenn Branca but what the hell, its a load of fun. Ceoil (talk) 21:07, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

ps hey martin, glad to see you have survived the Chinese lab/Johnson gov plague. Ceoil (talk) 21:14, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Woooo. Very cool video. A great groove going on there. Glenn Branca a very interesting musician. Surprised that Mr. Toyah Willcox never went down that route. BIG BANDS ARE GREAT!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 30 January 2022 (UTC) p.s. Roberto Ottaviano on soprano sax... Septober Energy remains, for me, a huge and wonderful masterpiece

If only...

... Jerry Lewis had had blond hair – like the rt. hon. Herr de Pfeffel. Sca (talk) 18:43, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, Jerry was funny, not just an incompetent buffoon and serial liar. But yes, it's an amusing thought. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Jerry was not funny in the US, but he was funny in France. (Go figure.) Heaven forbid that Macron would turn into Johnson (or, for that matter, Trump). --Tryptofish (talk) 19:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I always thought Jerry was more goofy than funny. I guess Macron would be more a modern day Monsieur Hulot if he was as stupid as Johnson. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Credit where credit is due: He's has taken the word prevaricate to new depths. (See this excellent definition: "PREVARICATOR, n. A liar in the caterpillar state.") – Sca (talk) 19:35, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Was he at a party in his own flat? We have to wait for the police report to be told. He can't possibly prejudice their enquiry by telling us the simple truth. We all had to wait for the shocking "update". Now we all have to wait for the fixed penalty notices. Then we'll all have to wait for the DPP. And then we'll all have to wait for the next General Election.... Come back fields of wheat, all is forgiven. Boris, he needs a long holiday in Orkney. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Groan-worthy joke: What did Mickey Mouse hate about Minnie Mouse's personality? She was fucking goofy. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

This is doubly hard for a poor Brit. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Goofy was only singly hard. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

"I'm invited in for coffee and I give the dog a bone" etc. [11] Martinevans123 (talk) 22:17, 31 January 2022 (UTC) (Jools on keys and cigar) Martinevans123 (talk) 15:04, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Gaming

Those who can, do. – Sca (talk) 15:12, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes. And the rest of us make facetious comments at ITN Nominations. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:21, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Norma Waterson

On 2 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Norma Waterson, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 05:29, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. "When the last rose of summer pricks my finger And the hot sun chills me to the bone". (Richard Thomoson on guitar) Martinevans123 (talk) 08:32, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

February songs

frozen

Thank you! - Today is a feast day for which Bach wrote several cantatas including Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, BWV 125, which was on DYK 10 years ago and TFA 4 years ago. I'm less happy that Georg Christoph Biller had to wait days for a Main page appearance under recent deaths, and then stayed not even for a full day. It would have been so meaningful today, with the man in the cantata saying he can depart in joy and peace. - The February pic was taken in memory last year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Biller is back for a bit, - I found a merciful soul. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:28, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Jolly good. Norma Waterson is a truly wonderful album, full of song gems. She was a true folk legend. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I agree! - I like my talk today (keeping Biller a bit longer, and even explaining how it works). - I was really cross that instead of Biller's name, we had white space for several hours, - who*s served by that? - I managed to picture two more vacation days --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:53, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Today, I decorated my talk with a Bach cantata. I heard it last year when missing RexxS began, and "not letting go" was a theme. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Valentine's Day edition, with spring flowers and plenty of music --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda. Is your figure less than Greek? (Lou Levy: piano, Max Bennett: double bass, Gus Johnson: drums) Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

funny ;) - we have the church not only for you (new pic, did you notice) but also for that saint, - it's precious and features the spiral of justice --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, I remember... Gerechtigkeitsspirale. Quite remarkable. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:47, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

22 02 2022: music for you, today the German Main page has de:In Freundschaft, and you know the long story behind it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

from Ukraine

to Martin

Ukraine on my talk, choir singing in "your" church in 2009. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Did you know.... that John Hughes, who once worked at the Uskside Foundry in Newport was the founder of the village of Yuzivka in Ukraine, later renamed Donetsk! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

prayer for Ukraine (2021) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Amazing.... Mykola Lysenko and ah, look it's St. Martin, Idstein. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:35, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

that's what I meant by "your" church ;) - you get the pic when you google "Oreya choir", DYK? - When it appeared on our Main page, Yoninah was impressed and thought it was my first - those were the days. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:50, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, don't worry, I know, haha. My knowledge of Ukrainian composers has just been increased by about 500%. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

that's great! more of same with stress on Prayer for Ukraine, with a history from 1995 to 2022, - the article a work in progress, help wanted - translation of some of it would also help --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:28, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

The pic I took in 2009 is on the German MP today, with this song from 1885, and I updated my personal pics to 3 March, when a symphony concert was dedicated to the victims of the 2022 invasion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:33, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Well done, Gerda! A beautiful image. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:35, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

DYK that I took it during a service, when I was at the front for communion anyway, and only afterwards noticed the reflection in the marble? The choir came several times, and once they sang me a birthday song at the reception. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Christmas gift - just found searching for Dumka. Prayer for Ukraine will be on DYK tomorrow, finally, for the whole day. We don't take sides, they said. Really? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:49, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

BoJo

"Kremlin calls Boris Johnson’s Ukraine diplomacy efforts 'utterly confused'"

What did they expect? – Sca (talk) 13:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. And talking of professional clowns.... [12]

"British efforts to arrange a phone call between Johnson and Vladimir Putin were in flux after a previously scheduled call on Monday had to be cancelled by the British because Johnson had to answer questions from MPs about alleged Covid rule-breaking parties in Downing Street." - says it all, really. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:13, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

And there's this. – Sca (talk) 14:49, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, Tobias Ellwood sounds a bit like a character from Thomas Hardy, doesn't he. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:23, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Or maybe it's the New York syndrome coming full circle. – Sca (talk) 15:34, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

PS: I once spent a very rainy fishing trip to Canada in a tent with The Return of the Native. Never did finish it. – Sca (talk) 15:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Good spot! We'll keep the useful and intelligent one, thanks. Do you want the first one back? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:45, 2 February 2022 (UTC) p.s. Plot spoiler: Eustacia drowns herself, Wildeve drowns trying to save her, Diggory Venn saves Clym Yeobright by mistake, Clym goes mad and becomes a televangelist. So, all in all a happy ending.

Alas, the fishing trip failed to end happily. Our way back entailed 45 miles of poorly maintained logging road, which tore the muffler off my fishing buddy's Ford, and 250 mi. of highway, upon which we kept the windows open to avoid CO poisoning. For some reason my buddy and I parted ways after that. And I never read Thomas Hardy again. Thus were the changes wrought in North Ontario. – Sca (talk) 16:28, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Great song, thanks! TH deserves better than a fishy tent in North Ontario.... Martinevans123 (talk) 16:37, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

An overly moist one, too.
I didn't know TH was into happy endings. – Sca (talk) 19:16, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

That was one of the happier ones... Martinevans123 (talk) 19:26, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

DYK that Patti Smith did a cover of that great song? But long before that, she showed up with Young in this gig. (Sorry for the execrable vid quality, but I like the aural atmospherics.) – Sca (talk) 19:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I had no idea. Cool track. I wonder who were the other friends. Talking of surprising covers (really good, actually). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree (though this user wasn't a Dolly fan). Try this iteration, with quirky instrumentation. – Sca (talk) 13:44, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Gotta luvva bitta Benji Franklin. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:43, 6 February 2022 (UTC) ...and a classic track by Linda from 1974 Heart Like a Wheel ...(Andrew Gold and Kenny Edwards harmonising)

20 - 17

Oh well, some consolation. It was all going so well, and then it went a bit dicky. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:44, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Good nooz at last

Johnson allies insist 'grownups' in charge of new team at No 10

– Sca (talk) 12:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Ah good. He still looks like an overgrown schoolboy, of course. Let's hope that they sack him Martinevans123 (talk) 13:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC) ... good old Guto, great to know that Johnson is an incomplete clown

So long Sylvester

Take Me to the River with the Hi Rhythm Section (Hi 5N-2285, 1975). Martinevans123 (talk) 23:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC) ...and Back for a Taste of Your Love (Hi 45-2250, 1973)

ITN recognition for Syl Johnson

On 9 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Syl Johnson, which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 23:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. "Watch me do the stroke one time, baby" as they say in Chicago, apparently....by Jove! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:19, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Barti Ddu

Mae ff ar gyfer ffwlbart.

You'll be proud to know that your piratical predecessor Bartholomew Roberts made German Wiki's version of OTD (Was geschah am 10. Februar?). – Sca (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Those ffolks from Ffishguard can be a bit ffirey. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:36, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Please don't set ffish on ffire! --Tryptoffish (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Yn gyfan gwbl nawr, dosbarth.... mae ff ar gyfer fforiwr, ffwl a ffwlbart! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 10 February 2022 (UTC) (but there's no effin' môr-leidr... )

WTFF? Say that three times ffast. (That three times ffast.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:23, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

What you need is Wisdom, Tenacity and Focus! (and yes, I can't even say it properly once). Martinevans123 (talk) 23:31, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

That's very kind of you Sca. But I see myself as more of a Jack Sparrow with a few added leeks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

20 - 17 (again!)

Phew!! That was close... But a much bigger game than last week. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Hiya M. Phew is right. Their play was much improved over last week. I miss Gareth Griffith-Jones all the time but much more so during the tourney. He was so generous in helping me to learn the ins and outs of the sport more than a decade ago now. Best regards. MarnetteD|Talk 16:32, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

What a hero Dan Biggar was there. That drop goal came in handy! His 100th cap! Yes, no news from Gareth and am a little concerned as to his welfare. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:42, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I am as well. Even after he retired from editing I still heard from him at Xmas or New Year's and that didn't happen this December. MarnetteD|Talk 16:46, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I have dropped him a line on his talk page, but I see his email is no longer enabled. I hope you are keeping well. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:03, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Rats, that is not a good sign. I am certainly grateful to have met him - and you as well. I am hanging in there M. Here in the US the tourney started with one match a weekend on BBC America in 05 or 06. It shifted from station to station after that with most of the telecasts tape delayed. It has finally landed on the Peacock streaming service and that means I get to see all of the matches live :-) Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 17:28, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

That is a good outcome. Split across channels here in UK, which means in (only) half of the matches we get adverts. It seems the Frogs are currently pounding the Paddys 19-7 (can I get blocked for saying that?) Martinevans123 (talk) 17:39, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Most likely. Wait I think that frogs on pads is a scene in this story :-P MarnetteD|Talk 17:52, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Blimey!! Ireland have just almost equalised - 22 - 21! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

A very fluid, open and clean game. But I think France deserved their 30 - 24 win. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:55, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I concur. I think I heard one of the announcers say that a part of their team is known as the "People's front - of Judea" or something like that. It brought a chuckle to my day. MarnetteD|Talk 20:30, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

"When you're feeling in the dumps, Don't be silly chumps". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:33, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Atal yr ymddygiad hurt hwn

"Try Mr Barnard, Room 12"

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Your behavior on the Heidegger TP is really ridiculous, to publish my location and then follow my edits on other pages. I've notified the admins of this, you really need to stop this nonsense! Cornelis Dopper (talk) 18:24, 15 February 2022 (UTC) Where is that discussion exactly? I don't see anything there. What "ridiculous behavior" do you mean? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:54, 15 February 2022 (UTC) And what do you mean by accusing me of "stalking you" here?? I reverted three of your edits at Ludwig Wittgenstein as I thought they were not improvements, and I gave a clear reason in my edit summary. Martinevans123 (talk) I've seen new editors start a discussion at ANI and forget to leave the talk page notice, but never the other way round. Oh it's there now, I'll take a look.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:07, 15 February 2022 (UTC) The original IP 213.124.174.59 has edited, seemingly without much incident, with about 123 edits, since 23 December 2000 (if this was indeed the same person). They were blocked for 24 hours yesterday. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:25, 15 February 2022 (UTC) Cornelis Dopper, do you understand the concept of a WP:Watchlist? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:13, 15 February 2022 (UTC) Oi!, Trypto.... you unashamed vandal.... "You burden me with your problems By telling me more than mine..." Martinevans123 (talk) 23:29, 15 February 2022 (UTC) Oy vay! I have no shame! --Tryptofish (talk) 18:41, 16 February 2022 (UTC) Ah yes, Wiki is very big in Manchestar! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

[13]

What is it?

Re: an image for ANI. I'm wracking my memory for where to find it, but do you remember that image that people occasionally post at ANI that shows a statue of someone with his face in his hands, with the caption "Not this shit again!"? I'd post it there, but I can't remember what the file name is. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:06, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

You probably need to visit "the museums". Or is he also on someone's blacklist? But sshhhhh.... you never know who's listening (or watching), buddy. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:11, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

We think alike! (Which should worry you.) I found it! By scrolling through EEng's talk page, of course! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:13, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

And thank you so much for opening that AN/I thread. Please don't forget to inform me. At least, now it's open again, it gives plenty more folks the opportunity to close it again, in the wrong way. If it's not been spun to death before then. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:22, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

best image for ani, arbcom and such is Gerechtigkeitsspirale, see the link a bit above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oh, no, I can't, I can't! It was threesies who opened it. I just put the header on it.¹ But no matter, we're all deep in the conspiracy together. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

¹And I didn't even get that right: [14]. Sorry! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Fret ye not. AN/I in a nutshell: "Heads you win, tails I lose". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:44, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

For those playing along at home: [15]. Now maybe someone will block me, instead of EEng. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

It's great when a complete WP:SPA unknown IP newbie can turn AN/I into such a jolly bunfight with a single valueless case, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes indeed. How wonderful it is to edit here. (Honestly, since I logged on today, pretty much everything has left me facepalming. Maybe not as bad as that dude in the image, but still.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Wait, a "bunfight"? Is that like a cockfight, but turned backwards? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:36, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

As Gerda would remind you, it's like Easter has come early. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I'd say something about cocks and hot buns, but I'm far too nice to do that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

And now excuse me, buddy. 'Cause I'm cuttin' in on you: Johnny "Guitar" Watson (1962). Martinevans123 (talk) 00:18, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Another stunning classic: "Reconsider Baby", Lowell Fulson (on Checker, 1954). Martinevans123 (talk) 23:21, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Also..."Worried Life Blues" by Freddie King (1971) [16] Martinevans123 (talk) 23:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Also... his first chart single (1961) was "You've Got to Love Her with a Feeling": [17] (Remastered 2015). (Sonny Thompson on piano):

The cops took her in

Now that woman didn't need no bail

She wiggled one time for the judge

And the judge put the cops in jail. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:26, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Signature

No worries re: my signature. It is a personalised one so one part links to my userpage and the other to my talk page, but the name is still PeeJay :) – PeeJay 13:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, PeeJay. I will take care to note that in future! I'm assuming no connection with this one, or indeed this one. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Jack Smethurst

On 19 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Jack Smethurst, which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 06:38, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:34, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

RIP Derek "The Draw" Hussey

Late of The Blockheads. "RIP Bona fide Geezer". [18] Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

New footage

The Stones in their pomp Ceoil (talk) 02:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Or new to me at least. This stuff is mind bloggingly good. The swagger and haut of the Fall. Ceoil (talk) 02:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Exile on Main St. a classic, of course. Had not seen that footage before. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Rukraine

Solidarity with Ukraine

File:Stop Putler sign.jpg

Looks familiar

"Emperor Putin" -- ?? You mean Vlad the Invader?

Anyway, Graham Norton was right.[19]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:05, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

You know what they say... Proverbs 16:18: "Pride cometh before a fall. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Seems he's been telling a few fibs. Also, he seems to be a homicidal maniac. Like that other bloke with the moustache. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Bloke was the Weirdle solution a couple days ago. Of course, I immediately filed a complaint. – Sca (talk) 13:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

How very Yankee-doodle-dare you! We now have to put up with color, favor and labor!! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:31, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

But I was basing it on our beloved & infallible MOS, which provides that U.S. topics must follow U.S. English style. Clearly, you can't FAULT me for that. – Sca (talk) 14:43, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

What a very interesting dictionary! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

But he said that Russia would not invade Ukraine.[20] Oh wait a minute, he's a politician. It's a special peacekeeping and denazification mission, or something like that.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:36, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, he said it on 18 January. You can't expect a homicidal maniac to keep his word for more than a month a day, can you? But it's ok.... now he's just "targeting military installations with precision weapons". Ordinary Ukrainian civilians have nothing to worry about. Whether they are Nazis or not. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

We look forward to China's special peacekeeping mission in Taiwan.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Look familiar? "12 Prominent People Who Compared Putin To Hitler Circa 1938" Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

And this.[21]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Gary Brooker

On 24 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Gary Brooker, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 17:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

The original "Procol Harum"?

Thanks. Those were the days. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Email

I emailed you, Martin. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Tony. As I suggested in my reply, if anyone is on Linkedin, it would be very helpful to hear from them. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, that was fun...

Tryptofish has brought you a glass of whisky – because it's NOT vodka! Cheers! (Sorry, Commons has no photos of Welsh whisky.)

You sure attracted quite an admirer, didn't you? [22], [23] --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

A somewhat shorter Wikipedia career than he might have expected? I suspect that future IP and newbie edits at both Martin Heidegger and Ludwig Wittgenstein might attract more investigation. But three absurds in one single post might be a record. Ah, the joys of Spring: [24]! Martinevans123 (talk) 23:22, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, one absurd would have been enough for me. Brings a whole new meaning to tulip mania, doesn't it? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I know nothing about philosophy, apparently. I probably ought to stick to the London Underground, where I can just "mind the gap!", and stop tilting at windmills... Or just stick to something I do know about: [25]. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that if you tilted at windmills, they would have accused you of being DONKEY HOTAY!!! Anyway, I wish you some peaceful editing. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I just had a look at that discussion and began wondering, early on, whether Mr. Dopper's Dasein was authentic, meaning that he could either choose and win himself or lose and never win himself, or whether it was inauthentic, fleeing in the face of his being and forgetting that he can choose and win himself. I guess nobody can really win for losing, and things simply are what they are. So, here's some Heidegger for you all, set to a soft reggae beat with tuba bass and tadpoles. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Kool beenz, Sluzz. You put the I and I into I-and-I Degger and you put the Dat into Datsein: [26] Martinevans123 (talk) 16:33, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

"For guidance me bredrin, Is wha' ya have in dat dere bag? Him kinda get frightened An begin im be hide it beneat him rag"... etc., etc.

And who said anything about grave dancing?

He admitted to socking with IPs two weeks ago. If he'd just been indeffed back then it would have saved everyone a lot of time. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Now, now, we mustn't bite the noobs, must we. And besides Trypto wouldn't get his fun..... but yes. "All tits and teeth", as my Aunty Peggy used to say. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:35, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

With fun like that, I'll take, um, whatever is the opposite. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

And who said anything about grave dancing?? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:17, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's true that dancing can be a very grave matter. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:22, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Indeed: [27] Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

🎵 It's the most wonderful time

🎵 dyma'r amser mwyaf bendigedig o'r flwyddyn 🎵

No, not that one...

Of the year 🎵.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:36, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Dydd Gwyl Dewi Hapus a Dydd Mawrth Ynyd Hapus!! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Welsh Words To Use On Pancake Day!

[28]: "Gwahoddiad" performed by Gerard Cousins. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:03, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Pagotophobia

Classic pagotophobia may also be accompanied by Freudian "flake envy"

Did you know... that pagotophobia is the fear of ice-cream [29]?? As far as I can see, it's mentioned at Wikipedia only once, at Sucharita Tyagi:

"Tyagi made her film acting debut with a supporting role in the 2019 short film Lutf, co-starring Mona Singh and Vinay Pathak. The film, which follows the life a woman suffering from pagotophobia, or the fear of ice cream, was on released on Sony Liv on 10 October 2019, coinciding with the World Mental Health Day." Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

I won't say what Trypophobia is. But I'm pretty sure that anorexia is the fear of eating too much ice cream. Perhaps pagodophobia is the fear of pagodas. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:13, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Eat 'ur heart out, Billy Gibbons

Argghh, just like you! Always splitting hairs! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Or stewing hares. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:07, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh, you temptress, you. Nice set of jugs! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

[30]. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:21, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

"What d'ya say, fellas.... ?" Central Scrutinizer 123 (talk) 20:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC) ... gee, hope I don't get pulled up on that one...

Plath

Hi Martin, the detail about gas knocking out the neighbour isn't given in the extant ref. Thoughts? Thanks. Anna (talk) 00:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi Anna. Hope you are well. Thanks for pointing that out. I have adjusted the ref to cover the following page 104. My snippet view on Google shows: "The gas from upstairs had made its way downstairs and knocked him unconscious while he slept. He woke up late in the afternoon feeling extremely ill and disoriented. Dr. Horder saw him later and diagnoses him as having carbon monoxide poisoning." Hope that helps. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Clive Myrie

Hi Martin, I've just seen your edit reverting mine, saying "we usually reserve the infobox for notable spouses/family?" Is that the case? Because on most pages I've seen a person's spouse/children is listed regardless of whether they are "notable" or not. Samuel J Walker (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi Samuel. I just checked Template:Infobox person and it seems you are right. It seems that parents and children must be notable, but not a spouse. Please revert my edit. Many thanks for asking. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

No worries. Thank you for answering so quickly. Samuel J Walker (talk) 19:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

March songs

March songs

Listening to the charity concert mentioned here. I created the articles of the composer and the soprano. Betovi just started. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Now, you can also listen on YouTube, and more music, the piece by Anna Korsun begins after about one hour, and the voices call "Freiheit!" (freedom, instead of "Freude", joy). Music every day, pictured in songs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:42, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

St. Patrick's Day, more music and today's sunset --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda. Wonderful music, Saint Patrick's Breastplate part of the Liber Hymnorum, an 11th-century collection of hymns found in two manuscripts kept in Dublin. My dear Mum passed away on this day only three years ago. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

So about when we sang it. My mom also died in March. We had tickets for Voces8 in 2020 RMF - cancelled. Hoping for this year. Patience ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

on Bach's birthday: the places where I sang his Dona nobis pacem --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

The Prayer is on the Main page, finally + new flowers, and btw: the TFA is a young writer's first --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:17, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Bless us with freedom, bless us with wisdom,

Guide into kind world,

Bless us, oh Lord, with good fortune

For ever and evermore.

Amen. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:44, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Amen. - Could you support the ballet dancer for RD? to make him appear on the Main page with the prayer? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:26, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Added my support. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

He's "on". (His YouTube is gone ...) Thank you for all your help, including Bach's No. 1, today! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, YouTube. Very dodgy. Just can trust it. Haha. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:27, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Sunday flowers and sounds, don't miss the extraordinary marriage of the beginnings of the theme of Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, BWV 1, and Prayer for Ukraine - here! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

exquisite voice today - unofficial-looking yt Vienna 2020, you'll find it --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

David Firth revert

Hello, I advise you to look at my edit again. This link to the current deletion discussion was contained both in the AfD template and in my edit summary, perfectly in line with WP:AFDHOWTO. Please revert your edit. Thank you. Throast (talk | contribs) 18:47, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

User:cyberbot has now correctly re-added the template with a link that works. It's sometimes a good idea to at least outline the reasons for (yet another) AfD, by means of an edit summary and/or in a Talk page thread, so that other editors know why it has been suggested? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:53, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The link already worked in my initial edit. Besides, if hadn't, one should always consider improving over reverting. I don't see the necessity in adding a rationale in the edit summary because the edit summary already contains a link to the rationale. Copy-pasting it into the edit summary and/or on the talk page would obviously be overkill. Throast (talk | contribs) 18:59, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

It was redlink for me. Perhaps there is some unavoidable lag. If you are, as you say "happy to improve it", I would have thought the Talk page would be the first port of call. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:04, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The article has seen no significant improvement since it was first created in 2004 or so. Before nominating, I made sure to make a thorough BEFORE search because I actually came to improve the article initially. That being said, I felt that a deletion discussion was the most appropriate step. If sources are found, which I doubt, the discussion will be closed and the article improved. Sounds fine to me. Throast (talk | contribs) 19:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Article improvement is generally more successful as a collaborative exercise? Looking at Talk:David Firth, I see there is not one single suggestion/ invitation to try and improve the article. I'm also a little bemused that he's still deemed to be the primary subject, alongside David Firth (actor) and David Firth (statistician). Martinevans123 (talk) 19:32, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

David Firth AfD

Hello, writing you here because our back-and-forth at the AfD doesn't seem to be going anywhere. You're misunderstanding the core of my argument. The state of the actual article should never be part of one's argument at a deletion discussion and it's not part of mine. I am simply arguing that the subject does not meet WP:BIO now just as it didn't in 2008. I am not saying that the article should be deleted because its quality hasn't changed since 2008. That would be a bad AfD argument.

My rationale is clear and does not require clarification. If you don't intend to refute my thesis that the subject doesn't meet WP:BIO, which you could do simply by providing adequate sources, I don't see a reason to engage with you any further at the AfD. Throast (talk | contribs) 09:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Good luck. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Just for info- popty ping

"Let’s get the myth out of the way now. "Popty ping" is not the Welsh term for the microwave oven, sorry. A literal translation would be "the oven that goes ping", which, while being very Pythonesque, and incredibly funny, isn’t actually true. The Welsh word for microwave is "meicrodon" – "meicro" being Welsh for micro, and "don", the mutated word for ton (tohn), literally means wave. And "ffwrn" just means oven. I know. Dull, isn’t it?"

"And on the same subject, the Welsh word for jellyfish is not "pysgodyn wibli wobli" (puh-skod-in wibbly wobbly), or, in English, wibbly wobbly fish. Lord alone knows what comedian came up with that one, but it’s fairly new in the lexicon of non-existent Welsh words. For many years, the official Welsh term for the jellyfish was "cont y môr", academics have recently changed it to "sglefren fôr" (skle-vren vore = sea skater)." [31]. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

March 2022

Your edit to Jon Hiseman has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. — Diannaa (talk) 16:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me, although I don't appreciate the threat of being blocked. As usual, I tried to paraphrase as best I could. I would welcome a demonstration of how that factual sequence of events could be re-phrased. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

As you probably know, the wording of the warning comes from the template, not from me personally. We have had many discussions about copyright going back seven years, where I have advised you in a non-template individualized way, so I think by now you should know my personal thoughts on the subject. Regarding this particular violation, the content was pretty much unaltered, and had not been paraphrased much at all. How I would likely do it is to omit quite a bit of the excessive detail about the location of the town of his birth, the occupations of his parents, his mother's maiden name, etc. The musicality of the family could be stated in a more general way rather than detailed extensively. — Diannaa (talk) 16:42, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Your template is signed by you personally. I'm not sure what could be less detailed than "Woolwich, south-east London" except perhaps "Woolwich, London". I think what's in the infobox should be both mentioned and sourced in the text. I would have thought the details about his parents are all perfectly reasonable in a BIO article. Not sure how one paraphrases "flute and piano" except as "piano and flute". Phew, the lawyers can relax once more. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:51, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

If you would like to get a second opinion, please feel free to consult one of the people on this list.— Diannaa (talk) 17:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

As ever, I am grateful for your advice. This has not been "seven years" of one-way traffic, has it? For some reason all of my copyright breaches have slipped past the other 8 editors on the list. I'm sure your suggestions, on how to avoid copyvio, are most welcome. I just don't really appreciate the threat that I "will be blocked from editing." Martinevans123 (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I can offer to spank you instead. Anyway, I looked at the current version of the page alongside the Guardian obit, and it wasn't obvious to me how I could paraphrase it any further without getting silly. But if you'd like me to take another look at it as a sort of second opinion, just let me know and I'll be happy to try. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

That's very kind. I'd be happy if you could offer any alternative version of this text, avoiding all possible multi-million-dollar law suits, which is what I tried to paraphrase:

Quotation
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"John (it was Melody Maker that referred to him in 1964 as “Jon”, and he saw no reason to change it) was born in Woolwich, south-east London, to Lily (nee Spratt), who worked in the music library at the Bank of England, and Philip Hiseman, a senior lecturer in printing at Camberwell School of Arts and Crafts. Lily played the flute and piano and Philip’s family included music hall entertainers and dance band musicians." "Hiseman studied the violin and piano at Addey and Stanhope grammar school in nearby New Cross, but found that his true interest lay in the drums. He played in a school trio with Reeves on double bass and Greenslade on piano. Later he appeared in the wittily named Wes Minster Five and was a founder member of Neil Ardley and the New Jazz Orchestra."

I particularly wanted to get the explanation of his mis-naming by Melody Maker in somehow. There is, of course, much more in Spencer Leigh's obituary that could be usefully added. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:36, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The reason why it is typically me that you see is because I do the majority of the work at CopyPatrol, as you can see by the leaderboard. (Stats go back to June 2016, when we created the CopyPatrol interface.) I'm not going to apologise for the wording of the template or tell you that you won't be blocked someday if you keep violating our copyright policy. It could happen.

The current version is much better from a copyright point of view. Suggestions for further additions: If you want to add something about his musical family, you could say "He came from a musical family". If you want to add something about his musical interests, you could say "He took piano and violin lessons in grammar school, but later discovered he preferred the drums." If you could try re-writing the above passages yourself I would appreciate it; I would be happy to review your proposed edits. I have to go out now. Bye for now.— Diannaa (talk) 18:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't promise to review all your stats from 2016. But I'm sure you do more than anyone else. You need not apologise for the wording of the template. But Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars rings some very irritating and counter-productive alarm bells, don't you think? Is there really no other way of telling me you've "changed visibility of 5 revisions" on a page I've edited? That won't stop me getting blocked, any sooner or any later. Yes, "He took piano and violin lessons in grammar school, but later discovered he preferred the drums" looks fine to me. I could say, "He came from a musical family", but I think I might rather resign first. Perhaps Trypto could also review my proposed edits. You two could have a little competition. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:02, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

And as I once said previously at EEng's talk page, don't regulate the Templars, either. I've made these edits: [32], which I hope are helpful with respect to the material quoted above, and I might be able to take some more requests later. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Do I get the Heisman Trophy? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you do!! Well done!! You see, you can edit articles without triggering multi-million-dollar law suits with hard-nosed vexatious litigants like The Guardian. You also get Tonight's STAR PRIZE!!. And mercifully it means I will no longer be doing that Downfall parody video with Diannaa ranting about Fegelein's copyvio breaches. What a relief. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:28, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Of course, you could just throw away the entire article and watch this instead. You'll end up knowing about 100% more about him. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Today's war atrocity c/o Mr Putin

ДЕТИ .... the new Russian word for "please bomb here":

"Bombed Mariupol theatre sheltering a thousand people had 'children' written on ground outside".

And this is the work of Ukrainian nationalists bombing their own people??

Martinevans123 (talk) 13:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Gordon Brown backs Nuremberg-style trial for Putin. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:05, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Slow blues

The incomparable Geraint Watkins and the Mosquitoes with "Honky Tonk", at The Wheatsheaf, Tooting Bec, 2014: [33]. (slow warm-up for two and a half mins, but then mmmmm.... and free cabaret from the glass collector too) Martinevans123 (talk) 23:39, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

That's Geraint at the trusty and versatile Nord Electro 3 HP.... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:31, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Vladville

Speaking of atrocities, have you seen this? Launched (I use the word advisedly) with the Soviet national anthem, no less. And somewhere I read that the obnoxious vocalist, who unaccountably interrupted his master's voice, sang a song that included lyrics praising Lenin (depicted) & dear old Uncle Joe. – Sca (talk) 16:38, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine's first black MP Zhan Beleniuk was the first gold medal winner in Tokyo at the 2020 Summer Olympics.

Nothing surprises me now. The new smiling face of evil in the world today. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:45, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Even the Governator, now 74, took it upon himself to counter Vlad's orgy of mindless jingoism. Considering the source, it was pretty good gig. – Sca (talk) 19:24, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Well done Arnie! A sincere and important message. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:27, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

It would have been simpler to say this, though.[34]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:34, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Nice one. Think I'll get mine ordered! Will kinda match these good guys.... Martinevans123 (talk) 19:37, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Gets my vote for the subtle approach. Appreciated cosmonaut Artemyev's helpful explanation: "We had accumulated a lot of yellow material so we needed to use it." Necessity, as they say. – Sca (talk) 19:41, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

So what about our response at Wikipedia, to this return to the Middle Ages? Whatever it is, I think we should be doing more. Personally I'd like to see a Ukrainian flag flying on our Main page. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:46, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

So happens I have a genuine Soviet flag, souvenir of my Eastern Europe days. I've been looking for a good place to burn it. – Sca (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

"In 2013, the U.S. rock band Bloodhound Gang desecrated a Russian flag during a concert in Ukraine. In response, Vladimir Markin of the Investigative Committee of Russia said that his department was prepared to file criminal charges if prosecutors thought they had a case." ..... Watch this space? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:59, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Maybe a concerted Ukraine-a-thon?? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I've left a note at User talk:Jimbo Wales#2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

And today's news: "An art school in Mariupol, where about 400 people were sheltering, was attacked, the city council says".

Ukraine's deputy prime minister Olha Stefanishyna said she "absolutely believes" that acts of genocide have been committed by the Russian regime, and said that President Vladimir Putin and leaders in the Kremlin "are war criminals".

Martinevans123 (talk) 10:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

On March 20, Russia declared its cosmonauts did not arrive at the ISS wearing Ukrainian colors blue and yellow. The actual colors are and cream and green, said the head of Russian space agency Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin – termed "a strong supporter of the invasion" of Ukraine. – Sca (talk) 13:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC) ;-) —

Ah yes, fake news colours. Colours are different now in Russia. Mr Putin decides what colour words actually mean. Or is it another one of those Ukrainian flag is green things again? [35] Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Copied an email w/NYT article to you. – Sca (talk) 22:53, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Allez!!

Allez les Bleus!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

England played very well. But, at 25–13, a well deserved Grand Slam for France. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

They were impressive. Looks like they are aiming to do well in next years shindig. Enjoy the rest of your weekend! MarnetteD|Talk 22:32, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Start the week

Good morning Martin. I have just been listening to, and enjoying, Start the Week, Welsh Identities on Radio 4. The programme is repeated at 9:30 this evening and, of course, available on BBC SOUNDS.
Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 09:56, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Gareth, I will check it out. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Internet Archive Scholar vs. JSTOR

Hello, I see on your user page that you use JSTOR and I'd like to know more about your experience. By my calculations, a good 70 % of the main JSTOR content is now available for everyone at Internet Archive Scholar, with full text search provided e.g. at https://scholar.archive.org/ . The service is still in beta, but I've used it for some source-finding and it seems quite usable to me; I wonder whether that's just my experience. If you have a chance, the next time you'd be looking for a source on Google Scholar or JSTOR or similar, to perform the same search on IA scholar instead, I'd be curious to hear how it ends up. Thanks, Nemo 19:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

New Savile documentary

On Netflix this time. The D**ly M**l is suitably outraged.[36] How's about that then, guys and gals?--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:04, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

There's a very simple answer to the apoplectic outrage of the D**ly M**l brigade.... don't watch it! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:34, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, nobody is forced to watch anything on Netflix as it is subscription only. This type of outrage works best with the BBC licence fee. "How dare the BBC spend my licence fee on this?" (eg the new TV drama with Alan Partridge playing Jimmy Savile (or is it Steve Coogan?). We haven't seen this yet, possibly the autumn schedule awaits for this delight.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:33, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm looking forward to that. Let's hope Paul has learned to roll his Yorkshire R's properly. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

RIP Taylor Hawkins

Learn to Fly (1999). Brilliant song, brilliant video, brilliant flight attendant, brilliant musician. Aged 50. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Taylor Hawkins

On 26 March 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Taylor Hawkins, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:25, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Apparently, "one of these days your heart will stop and play it's final beat." Martinevans123 (talk) 16:45, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

April songs

thank you, love it, - so sad --- I made my own Ukraine banner today, and think that the two blues in "yours" don't go well together, - consider a different background? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:15, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I've just borrowed may banner from Ritchie, so I'm really entirely in his hands over that. Yours is a very musical one. Yes, it's very sad indeed. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:23, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

you could still copy his code (with attribution, naturally), and use a different colour, such as SlimVirgin's irreal green, no? - My banner was done by DanCherek, seen? It sounds great, - I couldn't believe how well the two melodies go together. Source for today's DYK nom has white for a background: [37], - something also for Sca? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:38, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

memories: two people on DYK, both connected to Oper Frankfurt, and don't miss yesterday's video of Pink Floyd given to me! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:48, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

"Hey Hey Rise Up", featuring Andriy Khlyvnyuk of Boombox. I would urge everyone to buy a copy. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:45, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Oh, in the meadow a red viburnum has bent down low

For some reason, our glorious Ukraine is in sorrow

And we'll take that red viburnum and we will raise it up

And we shall cheer for our glorious Ukraine, hey, hey

And we shall cheer for our glorious Ukraine, hey, hey.

Wikipedia:Main Page history/2022 April 13: the TFA is hard to overlook, but there are also peace prayers, a soprano and a theatre manager, - if you don't find them try here --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

moar: rich in music and memories --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

and we'll raise it up - happy Easter, and thanks for your greeting, - music in return, Hallelujah, yes, the Handel, and we could still do it after missing two years --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:08, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

dance and singing, peace doves and icecream --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

another Ukraine day today: Maks Levin DYK, expanding Kyiv Symphony Orchestra (have tickets), and creating Anthony Robin Schneider, the bass who could be heard opening the singing in Beethoven's Ninth twice on 10 March 2022, live in Frankfurt, Germany, and recorded in Auckland, New Zealand, singing "Freiheit!" (freedom) instead of "Freude" (joy), in a tradition started after the Fall of the Wall. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

... now you can listen to what I heard live yesterday: Kyiv Symphony Orchestra, Luigi Gaggero & Diana Tishchenko (violin) / Kulturpalast Dresden (25 April 2022 on YouTube (that's 25 April in Dresden, a different violinist, but the same program) - ours pictured here - dove sono as encore --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:54, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

New message from JalenFolf

Hello, Martinevans123. You have new messages at Talk:Gardeners' World.
Message added 22:14, 30 March 2022 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Jalen Folf (talk) 22:14, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for letting me know. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Getting down to it?

Forwarded a NYT article to you about "Mining the depths of Wikipedia." - Sca (talk) 12:19, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. If only I were a subscriber. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Marty, I forwarded an email from a friend containing the whole text. I'm not a subscriber either, but I could read it. – Sca (talk) 13:42, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

PS: Here's a Vlad piece you can read: "If Putin Does Back Off, It's Always Just a Pause." – Sca (talk) 13:59, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Note

You've got mail. – Sca (talk) 17:03, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. "If you get translations of Putin’s remarks, he sounds like an enraged Hitler. Ukraine is a democratic, peaceful country that is being punished just because it wants to keep its own statehood. There are people who oddly, at this late date, are apologists, trying to get us to understand Putin’s point of view. He has no legitimate point of view on this. That’s the frustration I feel when I watch some of the coverage." - Brian Bonner, veteran U.S. newspaper journalist who has given the last 14 years of his career to Ukraine. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:35, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

PS: Perhaps Lavrov deserves a place in the Hall of Infamy? -- Sca (talk) 16:07, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, he gets the special Jo Fibbs award for his unstinting work at the Putin Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda. They claimed there were no civilian bodies lying on the streets when the soldiers pulled out..... Now satellite images prove them wrong. Not quite so easy to hide things and invent pathetic lies in the year 2022. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Not only satellites. Bucha: [38] [39] – Sca (talk) 16:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Just actors, Lavrov tells us. If you look carefully, you can see them moving. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Second verse, same as the first. -- Sca (talk) 15:56, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

“And in the rearview mirror it is noticeable that the dead seem to be starting to rise even.” - Russia-1. [40] Martinevans123 (talk) 16:04, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Russia is a powder keg. The Russians aren't all gullible, and most of them must know something of their country's long history under various regimes of oppressive, sometimes murderous, autocracy. Something's gotta give some day. -- Sca (talk) 16:11, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Within the next few days might be good. Just how stupid does Putin think the Russian people are? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Zelenskiy - UN

'War crimes' – [41] [42] – Sca (talk) 18:41, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Russians blab

German BND intercepts radio traffic discussing murder of Bucha civilians. – Sca (talk) 13:13, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

"The radio traffic intercepted by the BND makes it seem as though the atrocities perpetrated on civilians in Bucha were neither random acts nor the product of individual soldiers who got out of hand. Rather, say sources familiar with the audio, the material suggests that the troops spoke of the atrocities as though they were simply discussing their everyday lives.". These are not soldiers. These are animals. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

"We are here to write an encyclopedia (and showcase it's good articles), not express moral outrage over the recent events." - I'm not sure why these have to be alternatives, except that I suspect an encyclopaedia is not supposed to have any morals. Which, in such times as this, increasingly makes me ask myself if it really is a worthwhile pursuit. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Delfina Entrecanales

On 5 April 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Delfina Entrecanales, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 02:15, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. Delfina's Farm will always be linked for me to this masterpiece. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:46, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Jimmy Saville

I mistook it for an insult directed at the IP. Dronebogus (talk) 08:52, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I see. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:37, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

We are heading for a load of wikifun over the Easter holidays as people watch the Netflix documentary. I haven't seen it, it looks okay but doesn't say much new (Prince Charles and Margaret Thatcher were keen on Savile etc etc).--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:49, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Am digging out my shell-suit and medallion, even as we speak, for a special celebration.... (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Watch out for newly acquired experts on Savile who don't know how to spell his name correctly.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:07, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

C'est vile, n'est-ce pas? Toe Curling 123 (talk) 21:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Looks like we forgot this historic anniversary. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:59, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

That is very funny. Dronebogus (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't suppose this will get used in the article.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:36, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Well maybe not in the Jimmy Savile article. How about at The Organist Entertains? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:14, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

All work and no ...

Matti Antero Kristian Fagerholm: giant of suomirock!!

Here's a distraction from the horrors of war. – Sca (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

→ And a somewhat questionable version jes' for fun. Not to mention this bizarre European anomaly. – Sca (talk) 19:01, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

All good, many thanks. Had only heard these guys before now! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:10, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Ah, the Lone Star version. Lacks the requisite punch, I'm afraid. -- Sca (talk) 22:58, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Back to reality? -- Sca (talk) 12:32, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer said he would meet Putin on Monday in Moscow. "We are militarily neutral, but (have) a clear position on the Russian war of aggression against #Ukraine," Nehammer wrote on Twitter. "It must stop! It needs humanitarian corridors, ceasefire & full investigation of war crimes." Martinevans123 (talk) 12:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Today's Vlad evaluation. -- Sca (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

'Genocide'

... says Biden. – Sca (talk) 12:40, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Sadly I think he's right.

"The Kremlin said Mr Biden's comments were an "unacceptable" effort to "distort the situation" in Ukraine. This is hardly acceptable from a president of the United States, a country that has committed well-known crimes in recent times," Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said on a conference call with reporters.". A relentless of bombardment of people's houses in Mariupol for many weeks, knowing that thousands of resident civilians will either be killed instantly or will be trapped in their cellars and starve to death.... and then to target public buildings where homeless civilians are sheltering... and to refuse ceasefires for humanitarian corridors and aid... and all just because they are Ukrainians. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:39, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Here's one Vladimir we liked and admired (unlike certain others). -- Sca (talk) 19:10, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Poor timing

So much for talismans. – Sca (talk) 12:47, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Probably a gift from Archbishop Kill'em. I imagine the guns on that ship were personally blessed by him. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:35, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Say You Don't Mind

On 19 April 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Say You Don't Mind, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Christopher Gunning apparently only got paid £15 to arrange the top-20 hit "Say You Don't Mind"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Say You Don't Mind. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Say You Don't Mind), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:03, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Here it is. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Truth-telling tycoon ...

Russian tycoon Tinkov denounces 'crazy war' in Ukraine. – Sca (talk) 12:30, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Some sense at last, from Oleg Tinkov (the 15th-richest person in Russia):

"The (Russian) generals, waking up with a hangover, realized that they had a shit army," Tinkov wrote. "And how could the army be good if everything else in the country is shit and mired in nepotism, sycophancy and servility?"

Switching to English, Tinkov wrote: "Dear 'collective West' please give Mr. Putin a clear exit to save his face and stop this massacre. Please be more rational and humanitarian." -- Martinevans123 (talk) 13:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

"The country is ... mired in nepotism, sycophancy and servility." -- Sca (talk) 13:16, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, shit. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:20, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

And here's what Russian shit looks like. -- Sca (talk) 13:59, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Brazen Balts ...

... call for end to dependence on RU energy. –- Sca (talk) 16:55, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Traditional wiki zyder press

• You've got mail. – Sca (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  "If compressed, the entire online encyclopedia would take up only twenty gigabytes." Do they take the seeds out during the compression? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

No bytes were injured during that process. – Sca (talk) 17:54, 23 April 2022 (UTC) ↓

I'll press me own, thank 'e. Beware: official 2007 video features Tony Blackburn. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Isbister Lake

Hello! Two things. Firstly, as far as I know, there's no rule against red links in disambig pages. That said, I don't really like them either unless there's a good chance an article will be published to fill the red link. Secondly, I'm in the process of creating said article and it'll be done once I get a chance to copy edit one last time. I just got ahead of myself by putting links to Isbister Lake everywhere they'll be needed. Masterhatch (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

No worries. Thanks for telling me. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

They're back ...

Soviet-era effluvia ... emerge yet again in conquered Kherson. – Sca (talk) 13:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, apparently old Vlad had his 152nd birthday on Friday. But I think young Vlad models himself more on the charming and erudite Uncle Joe. "One woman was unimpressed “What the fuck are you doing here?” she asked an enemy soldier, in an exchange filmed on a phone. “You’re occupiers! You’re are fascists! You came to my land uninvited.” She then tried to hand him a packet of seeds. “These are so sunflowers will grow when you all lie down here. From this moment you are cursed! You are a piece of shit!” Martinevans123 (talk) 13:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Anne Applebaum called Russian conduct in Ukraine "an eerily precise repeat of the NKVD and Red Army’s behaviour" in eastern Europe decades ago. – Sca (talk) 13:38, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Today's tricky 5-letter Russian Wordle:

IVANN

LENIN

STALN

PUTIN

SATAN

Something is seriously ...

... askew in the Росси́йская импе́рия. – Sca (talk) 14:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Let's hope no Russian sportsmen or women are permitted to complete anywhere in the world, and no international sports events are permitted to occur on Russian soil, as long as the war continues. It's not the fault of the unfortunate sportsman and women, of course, but rather of their deranged megalomaniac President. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:38, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

/* New subject */

Rock-a-doodle-doo!
Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) (contribs) 15:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Good day to you too Gareth! Can't decide if this is a reference to this classic or this one! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, a true classic, although it is a close call!
Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) (contribs) 15:28, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, as a birthday treat I guess you could enjoy some mashed potatoes or even some roast turkey. Failing those, I guess you could just shake a tail feather! [43] Martinevans123 (talk) 15:46, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

You are spoiling me.
Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) (contribs) 15:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

"But of course, Mr Welsh Ambassador!" Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Pink Floyd has an RFC

Pink Floyd has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. TSP (talk) 13:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Sounds groovy, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

When ye go away

[44] no reason. Ceoil (talk) 00:32, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Often the best reason. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:05, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

May songs

May songs

I have the quirky DYK today, which is rare, and I don't quite know why music for peace was deemed quirky. - I took and picked the blue-and-yellow pic last year for May. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

What? No "sausage-krautz bullshit pseudoreligious music from Herr Schlampewurtz"?? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I wonder what "Herr Schlampewurtz" would be in Russian? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:32, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

serious today --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

two songs today: Hey Hey Rise Up! (written by friends) and Glauben können wie du, sung by the person I have on DYK today, right below the other. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:58, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

today performances in Ukraine - for Ukraine - for peace, at the bottom an imaginary set of eight DYK - and more May pics--Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

today more pics, and should this woman have an article? - or only her sons? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:36, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

today Melody (not by me), and more pics --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

my choir in Idstein performed an evensong (pictured), two years and two months after the last! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Well done, choir! Hope it's good to be back. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

thank you - a strong woman singing today --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

... and another today --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Here's "Leave me, loathsome light" from Handel's Semele: Early Opera Company, Christian Curnyn conductor. Surprisingly no article yet for Brindley Sherratt. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:14, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

blue: today saw my pic of the Kyiv Symphony Orchestra on the Main page - blue light for you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Great to see that, Gerda. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

" Well there're so many sinking Now you've got to keep thinking You can make it thru these waves" Martinevans123 (talk) 21:57, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

thank you! - I like my talk today (actually mostly from 29 May - I took the title pic), enjoy the music, two related videos worth watching! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Chris Kamara

Hi!

Not sure if you know, but you recently added a claim on Chris Kamara's article that he had played for Welshpool again in 2021. Did you know the source link you provided is from 2013? I initially thought it was vandalism but you don't seem that sort of editor.

Wondering if this was just an error in the year or if I'm missing something?

Thanks! MarchOfTheGreyhounds (talk) 09:30, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, MarchOfTheGreyhounds. Well spotted; sorry that's my mistake. And you're right, I'm "Not That Kinda Girl". Martinevans123 (talk) 10:36, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Patriarchal values

EU mulls putting Putin partisan Krill on personal sanctions list. – Sca (talk) 13:23, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

"In 2012 Russian bloggers spotted a photo in which a watch worth more than $30,000 appeared airbrushed off the holy leader's wrist, but its reflection was visible on the table." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Now that's value, all right. -- Sca (talk) 14:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

"According to Forbes Patriarch Kirill’s net worth in 2006 was $4 billion." I guess the vow of poverty has somewhat passed him by. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

My sources indicate Rev. Krill's net worth has shrunk to 30 pieces of silver. -- Sca (talk) 19:23, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. And it's about time he gave them back. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Have you seen this one?

@Martinevans123, I'm guessing you also watch the 'Keir Starmer' article. What did you think of this edit, in comparison to this one which you reverted? -- DeFacto (talk). 13:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, not on my watchlist - other beer-and-curry stuff exists. But, yes equally dodgy. I trust you will revert him. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:44, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I won't be reverting, as I agree with them. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:52, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes. Something about bears and the Pope springs to mind. Oh well. Perhaps we should all write letters to Durham Police? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:55, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

PAGE MY CHERIE AMOUR song of Stevie Wonder

Made only a link to Boney M. In rubrice "covers" changed it to written in blue. See the references page.....first attempt....letters became not blue....but.....3.699 letters are deleted!!!! Do not understand anything of it!!!! Did only make a link... Cannot bring it back to how it was....."cancelling" does not appear.....MWV didn't change 3.699 points!!! Musicworldvision (talk) 23:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

You just can't trust Frank and the gang, can you. If that ever happens again feel free to self-revert. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:14, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

yes,but the self-revert possiblity did not appear in the rework list. But discovered today that someone had already the page back so good as it was. Musicworldvision (talk) 21:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Here's the article history. As with any article, it's always possible to Undo whatever is the latest edit (provided it's not an admin-protected edit). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Stephen Fry

Thank you for adjusting my edit Floaty.flamingo (talk) 04:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

No worries. But I'm not sure that one sentence deserves its own sub-section. And I'm pretty sure it's not part of his "Career". So should probably be repositioned. Cheers. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:17, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Richard Hammond

As we’ve concluded it’s a disjunct which would need a comma. Do I have to the go ahead to change this. This would be my first official change that’s actually been kept as such. This is with regards to the “Since 2016” on The Richard Hammond page. Define02 (talk) 12:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Errm, did we conclude that? I don't see any mention of "Since" at disjunct (linguistics). Maybe we should explicitly agree that first at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Introductory commas? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:00, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Catherine Tate's DOB

Hello Martinevans123. Please search and watch this Youtube video - 'catherine tate talks about her FAKE birthday'. Thank you. 2.24.14.127 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:11, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

IP 2.14, I've watched that video many times and it's been discussed on the Talk page. Sorry, but it's wholly inconclusive and is not considered to be a reliable source. Please discuss further at Talk:Catherine Tate if you feel you must. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:14, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@Martinevans123, how can not it not be reilable? She literally say's in the video that Wikipedia have her birth date wrong and that it's not the 12 May 1968 and it's actually the 5 December 1969. She say's she is 18 months older on Wikipedia. How much more evidence do you need to understand that her birth date is incorrect on Wikipedia? 2.24.14.127 (talk) 08:23, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps you could link to the exact time where she states "it's not the 12 May 1968 and it's actually the 5 December 1969"? How would you reconcile that claim with all the other good sources we have for 12 May? Thanks for not edit waring. At one stage she says "I'm 18 months older" - how do you explain that? The correct venue for any further discussion is at Talk:Catherine Tate. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:59, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@Martinevans123, In the 2018 video, Catherine herself says regarding her birthdate that "it's alway wrong on Wikipedia" and when wished happy 50th she says "It's next December, but thanks". Does that not prove to you that her birthday is in December 1969? I mean it really doesn't take a genius to work out the maths. 2.24.14.127 (talk) 2.24.14.127 (talk) 08:11, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

So here's the video, uploaded by someone called "a fan of catherine tate." It shows footage from a Good Morning Britain interview with Kate Garraway from 6 April 2018. It proves nothing. Tate's actual words are "No, it's always wrong on ...." In my opinion, it demonstrates only Tate's sarcastic humour. If you want to discuss this topic any further you can go to Talk:Catherine Tate. I mean it really doesn't take a genius to find that page. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

News that doesn't quite fit ...

Journalists pull a fast one on госпо̀дин Vlad.

Russian government sources, who spoke on condition of anomie, said the journalists involved in the incident had decided to get away from it all and move from Moscow to northern Siberia, where they would be provided with housing. – Sca (talk) 14:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

However, not with food. – Sca (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Then the biggest HOO-RAH goes to Egor Polyakov and Alexandra Miroshnikova: "Polyakov, who works as a business reporter at Lenta, said he and his colleague Alexandra Miroshnikova published more than 40 articles critical of the Kremlin and its actions in Ukraine. The articles have since been taken down, but can be accessed through a web archive tool." Yes, the bodies of the dead Russian soldiers seem to have been just abandoned. The Ukrainians, who have been going around collecting them and putting them in body bags, have said there are "too many to count". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:34, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

But there is now potentially good news. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

• I feel like this thread needs the video of Putin singing "Blueberry Hill", but I can't be arsed to find it. Softlavender (talk) 07:01, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Not sure I'd want to attend that karoke party. The Vladimir Putin article currently says: "... it is impossible to study brain disease or mental illness based on video clips alone." But I'd argue that ordering the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, in an attempt to "de-Nazify Ukraine" is ample evidence of a very fundamental and deep-seated mental illness. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Putin dying

Someone reverting your good edit at Putin page. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:56, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Apparently we can't include it as Joe Biden doesn't have dementia. Let's just hope Putin dies soon. Might even make Main page. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:54, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

De-Putinifying Russia? -- Sca (talk) 12:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• You've got mail. – Sca (talk) 13:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for that. Is it fair use? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry, donno. -- Sca (talk) 12:34, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Updating now to 18 May morning headlines here that he has had new surgery: [45] [46]. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Consider the sources. -- Sca (talk) 15:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

May 2022

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. Constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, but a recent edit of yours to the page Margaret Thatcher has an edit summary that appears to be inadequate, inaccurate, or inappropriate. The summaries are helpful to people browsing an article's history, so it is important that you use edit summaries that accurately tell other editors what you did. Feel free to use the sandbox to make test edits. "ding-dong" is not appropriate. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 01:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the welcome. But not sure I'm encouraged to stay. So I added some basic details about the new statue of Thatcher, in Grantham, and your edit summary, when you reverted it a minute later, was "completely irrelevant". That summary also appears to be "inadequate, inaccurate, or inappropriate." Martinevans123 (talk) 07:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, about the statue, not Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead, which your edit summary implied. Bearing WP:RESPONSIBLE in mind, I took your summary the wrong way, and I apologise for responding with an edit summary that could appear hostile. (Personally I've been diagnosed on the spectrum and often I react to things written literally, in the heat of the moment, and in that particular instance I took offence which I realise now you didn't intend.) ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 03:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your apology and for your explanation. One might imagine "ding-dong" to be the sound of eggs hitting a bronze statue. Although I guess they were probably rotten ones, not hard-boiled. I see the eggee egger has now been named and shamed. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Eggee? Another questionable coinage. -- Sca (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, that should of course be egger (no relation). The eggee was Maggie, aka the Iron Egg Lady... well bronze, anyway... Martinevans123 (talk) 16:47, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Surely, capitalism at its finest Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Or British humor at its most levitous. Sca (talk) 19:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Let's hope they were free range. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I suspect they were too chicken. (US humor at its least Leviticus.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

obligatory Jewish joke

Three sons of a Yiddishe Mama left their homeland, went abroad and prospered. They discussed the gifts they were able to give their ageing mother: Joseph, the first son, said, "I built a big house for our mother." Adam, the second, said, "I sent her a Mercedes with a driver." Daniel, the youngest, said, "You remember how our mother enjoys reading the Bible? Now she can't see very well. I sent her a remarkable parrot that recites the whole Bible—Mama just has to name the chapter and verse." Soon thereafter, a letter of thanks came from their mother: "Joseph," she said, "the house you built is so huge. I live only in one room, but I have to clean the whole house." "Adam," she said, "I am too old to travel. I stay most of the time at home so I rarely use the Mercedes. And that driver is a schmuck. But Daniel," she said, "the chicken was delicious!"

... "She always liked to sing along, she's always handy with a song"

Catherine Tate

Hello, I just would like to know why you reverted my edit on Catherine Tate's filmography, as her return to Doctor Who is official.

Sincerely, Ragnarok861 10:43, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello Ragnarok861. Did you see my edit summary? I had thought it was quite self-explanatory: "suggest you take this to Talk page; it's now only May 2022 and this appears to be WP:CRYSTAL". I made the same revert, with same summary, to your similar edit at Bernard Cribbins. I don't think it's appropriate to add items to Filmography tables if they don't exist. Probably best to discuss at the respective Talk pages. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Catherine Tate's return to Doctor Who is official and if you don't believe me, you can check for yourself on the official Doctor Who website (doctorwho.tv) or the official Doctor Who Twitter account. Ragnarok861 (talk) 14:45, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Tate's return to Doctor Who is not the issue. That can be fully explained in the text, with some suitable source(s). But the episodes in which she will appear do not yet exist. So they can't be added to any table of Filmography. If you need to discuss further, the appropriate venue is Talk:Catherine Tate. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh sorry, now I understand. My mistake. Ragnarok861 (talk) 06:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Loudon Wainwright III wiki page

Hi-- I am writing on Loudon Wainwright's behalf. The sentences I removed from the page are false, even though there are "citations" for some of them. The LW3 quote about "Hitting You" is taken out of context and is misleading; it is a problematic, at best, to call that situation "assault." Martha Wainwright has said inaccurate things to reporters over the years; the fact that they were published in newspapers (which are not fact-checked) does not make them true. Loudon has written detailed firsthand accounts of Kate McGarrigle's first pregnancy, "Hitting You," and other topics described in the WIKI entry in his memoir "Liner Notes."69.2.124.29 (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the information, but you will need to raise your concerns at Talk:Loudon Wainwright III, not here. And I should also point out that "writing on Loudon Wainwright's behalf" is not regraded as a WP:Reliable source. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello--

I really don't know how to do this. I'm a journalist, not a Wiki editor. Can you explain where to put this info? Would rather not get attorneys involved. 69.2.124.29 (talk) 16:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Please copy over to Talk:Loudon Wainwright III. Note: please don't even mention the possibility of a legal threat or you are likely to be blocked. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring at the article, to try and get your version in, is also a way to get quickly blocked. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:50, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Pace changer ...

Here's something to get your editorial juices flowing again. – Sca (talk) 15:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Hey, you! Don't Take My Coconuts!!... or accept the consequences. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I see you couldn't resist welching, oops, I mean walzing into that one editorially. -- Sca (talk) 17:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

"Accidentally INJURED by falling coconuts?? Don't delay! Call Saul Goodman TODAY and get EXPERT ADVICE!". Martinevans123 (talk) 18:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Who do we trust, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, or Vladimir Putin or...?

• 
  Solidairy with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, defender and champion of the free world
• 
  "PM Putin owns a small flat, two Volgas, a Lada and trailer."
• 
  Vladimir Putin, deranged dictator, international war criminal, killer of at least 2,000 Ukrainian civilians, including children
• Sergey Lavrov, serial liar, apologist for child-killer Putin
  Sergey Lavrov, serial liar, apologist for child-killer Putin
• 
  Putin issued nuclear order in response to Liz Truss comments, Kremlin says: "There were unacceptable statements about possible conflict situations and even confrontations and clashes between Nato and Russia," said Mr Peskov. "I will not name the authors of these statements, although it was the British foreign secretary."

• "We arrived here for drills...: UATV English
• "We came here because of (military) exercises. But we were lied to... ": Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
• "Many Ukrainians have been brainwashed... Neo-Nazis are treating their own population as human shields..." Mr Putin c/o Sky News

RIP Evángelos Odysséas Papathanassíou

RIP Vangelis (29 March 1943 – 17 May 2022). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:24, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

"And if you're asking me when, I'll say it starts at the end"

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	:D AmerikanKoloniser (talk) 19:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

How very kind. "What have I... what have I... what have I done to deserve this!!" etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:25, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Recent deaths

Can you plese consider Cathal Coughlan (musician) for noming at RDs. Dont know how all that works, and the article should be finished by early afternoon tomorrow, more or less. I would very much like your help. Ceoil (talk) 02:49, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Have nominated. A few sources needed in the Discography section, but otherwise looking reasonable. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:25, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Nice one, and thanks a bunch.Ceoil (talk) 09:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

No worries. Their big hit from 1987!! Martinevans123 (talk) 09:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

You might want to add a Support. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:59, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Cathal Coughlan (musician)

On 24 May 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Cathal Coughlan (musician), which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Black Kite (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Cheers dude. Look... it's Simon Dupree and the Black Kites!! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Alan White (Yes drummer)

On 27 May 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Alan White (Yes drummer), which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. —Bagumba (talk) 16:40, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. Parr for the course, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:08, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

David Canzini

As you've worked quite a bit on Boris Johnson, you might be interested in putting something together on David Canzini who was profiled this morning on BBC 4. It was pointed out that he had no Wikipedia page. There's some good background in the FT here. There's also an interesting piece in the Guardian.--Ipigott (talk) 05:54, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ipigott. I'm reluctant to edit anything connected with BoJo the Clown at the moment. And FT seems to be subs only? I might join in later if I'm feeling particularly vindictive. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:49, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I quite understand but I see Andrew Davidson has already made a start. Let's see how it goes.--Ipigott (talk) 11:19, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Improvement suggestion.

Hi, Martin.

Can you advise how and where to make improvement suggestions for Wikipedia? Basically I have an idea I'd like to put forth to add a tab or flagging option to the interface to remind regular account holders of things to do on Wiki. they may otherwise forget. Regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Cheers, Tryptofish.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:20, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Kieron. Yes, Trypto's suggestion seems a very good one. I always keep a long list of things to remember, pinned to my laptop:

1. Log on to my account.
2. Do some edits.
3. Try not to upset too many people (too much).
4. Log off. lol Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

My list is similar, but I omit #2. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I admit it. I do sometimes skip #3, you great ninny. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

My nanny called me a ninny, too. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Hey Nonny Nonny Martinevans123 (talk) 22:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Lol thanks. You know I focus largely on one article at a time, Martin. Basically I respond to suggestions from one other user to add entries or references etc. to articles, but sometimes I forget the commitment and he sends me reminders if a day or two pass by without my assisting him. I just thought some simple notification tab method would remind me. I'll add the suggestion shortly. Thanks again.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Cite to Ellmann

Martin, you are correct that Ellmann is the source; the page # is 34. Regards, Kablammo (talk) 00:16, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Kablammo, thanks for the info. I am unable to find an online edition which shows that page. If you have a copy, I suggest you add that page number. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:54, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

User:Czar has now added pages 27, 32 and 34. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:14, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

RIP Lester Keith Piggott

..in the days before Rock and Roll... "When we let, then we bet, on Lester Piggott, ten to one, we let the goldfish go!" (Georgie Fame: Hammond organ. Paul Durcan: spoken vocals) Martinevans123 (talk) 19:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Question

Why does this person's expression remind me of a yellow perch? – Sca (talk) 15:46, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The perch is much more handsome (and much more intelligent, and of much higher moral character). --Tryptoperch (talk) 20:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The perch doesn't spend its life telling lies and trying to "de-Nazify" a peace-loving neighbouring shoal of bream. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

To bream the impossible bream... To fight the unbeatable roe... --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh and the perch is almost human. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:59, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Almost? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, in North America perch of this sort are considered 'trash' fish -- hence the involuntary subliminal association with said person. Yes, you can fry them, but they're not worth the effort. -- Sca (talk) 13:10, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

You got me! --Tryptotrash (talk) 22:37, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Her Majesty

"North Korea's Kim Jong Un sends congratulations to Queen Elizabeth on Jubilee."

– Sources at Windsor report the Queen said she was "just tickled pink" by the unexpected overture from Pyongyang, which arrived by missive-bearing missile from the DPRK. – Sca (talk) 13:39, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

How very touching. I expect he wishes he could cadge a badge to show his love for Her Maj. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

June music

June songs

Thank you for all these! - Ukrainian peace music is "on" today, with the conductor! - Pentecost (on last Sunday and Monday in Germany) brought a rich harvest of great music in two church services (one with me singing in choir) and two concerts with my brother in the orchestra, - four pictures I took besides the symphonic one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

my day today, which song would you give me? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

That's an easy one: [47] .... or maybe a bit of "No Diggity" embellishment: [48]! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:21, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

perhaps the question wasn't clear? - I didn't mean which one of the titles given, but a song you'd like to sing with me? Or is it that one? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

why not? :) Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

because so far I had few doubles, but fine ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Gerda, if you really want me to sing Nun jauchzt dem Herren, alle Welt with you, then fine. [49]. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Asking my friends - in 2020 - to give me a song for my birthday was looking to meet new song, - such as Meermenschen. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Groovy. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

My song collection is especially rich, look, and the hall where I first heard DFD, Pierre Boulez and Murray Perahia. Do you find the baby deer in the meadow (last row)? .. and my friend the bass player --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

today: a song about getting through the night, after plenty of music over the weekend --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Today is a birthday. Last word in June: O fortuna! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

O Fortuna! Got a light, mate? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Note

You've got more mail. – Sca (talk) 12:28, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. "Ukraine's former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko has described Vladimir Putin as “absolutely rational, cold, cruel, black evil” and claimed he is determined to go down in Russian history alongside Stalin and Peter the Great." Nice one. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Reply from u:Lmharding

User:Lmharding has replied at my talk page to your post at User talk:Lmharding where you noted that they should retract or report their accusation, made here. Their response states that you and I "both have contradicted yourselves and hypocritically falsely claimed I was an alt while getting mad at me for just innocently asking...". It does not address their accusation at all. AukusRuckus (talk) 11:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me. Their behaviour is quite irrational and disruptive. I see a pattern emerging in all of their edits to various "LGBT rights in xxxx" articles. As I've just posted at their Talk page, they have two options:

1. To withdraw the accusation by redacting with a strike-through and clear explanation.
2. To formally report the accusation at an appropriate venue (WP:AN/I might be most suitable). Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

That would only be fair, in my view. AukusRuckus (talk) 11:25, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

It dioes address it, you take back and cross out your allegation and I'll do the same right after. You first. Lmharding (talk) 00:25, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

(As usual) it's unclear to whom you are replying. But I have made no allegation. And neither has AukusRuckus. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:48, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

AukusRuckus, I've read your summaries at your Talk page and I wholeheartedly agree. If Lmharding refuses o withdraw the accusation of sock puppetry, I also think it's justified to ask others to step in. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe. A kind of result: But then again, not much of one. This was the delightful edit summary for one of four edits they made in the effort to sweep the whole thing off my talk page.

     "removed, coordinated harassment campaign".

Some retraction, hey? And we're still at fault.

Then there's this billet-doux: "Statement retracted, now stop spamming me. 04:30, 13 June 2022" left for us on the UAE LGBT talk page. And they're now having a rampage around putting in all the stuff they've been slowed or stopped from doing for a while. Toxic behaviour.

I think I'm not leaving it at this, but I'm very disheartened and am gonna hibernate for a bit. Then I'll come back and see what damage they're doing, and what might be done then (if they haven't been tripped up some other way. We can only hope! But they're relentless, so I won't hold my breath). Thanks for getting stuck in too. AukusRuckus (talk) 10:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, not exactly any kind of apology. And, as you say, essentially still blaming us. I actually said "... by redacting with a strike-through and clear explanation." No explanation has been provided. I'd strongly recommend that you restore the background that they have deleted from your Talk page, especially that this was in response to a proposed WP:SPI of their account as well as ours. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:56, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yep, agreed. As suggested, have restored my page and directed yet another message posted there to them. Fixed a small typo in my earler post here (an unwanted pronoun had slipped in.) AukusRuckus (talk) 11:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Just looking to see if there was any response to my "June 2022" request for retraction or report at User talk:Lmharding and I see this edit by an anon IP, geolocating to Allentown, Pennsylvania. I wonder if they are in any way connected to the named account? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I see another IP from Pennsylvania, reverting one of my 2019 edits, at Talk:LGBT rights in the United Arab Emirates, here. Probably just coincidence, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:58, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

"Same-sex sexual activity is legal in the state" - is this not true of every US state and every country in the world? Well, to be fair, I don't think it is legal in every country in the world, unfortunately. That is part of the problem (both in the world and here on WP!) But you're right: legal in every state. Funny I never noticed that strange line before.

My biggest fan has branched out from their usual round of third world (+Texas) LGBT articles to LGBT rights in Queensland where they are now popping up to add "Almost never enforced" for anti-discrimination laws. I wonder how they're so well-informed about so many places, all without the benefit of trivial niceties like, ooh, I don't know ... sources? Now they're in my neck of the woods.

They also just tried to have page protection added [50] to Texas so they can't be reverted while they're in beddy-byes. Apparently they are the only ones allowed to revert others with impunity. All my nice new info and table insertion down the gurgler ... Oh well </sigh, again>. AukusRuckus (talk) 13:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, of course, thanks for clarifying. It is very one-sided and very draining of effort. I think a report to an admin board is in order. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, Martin. I'm embarrassed. That was only meant to be a (very) little joke. I hope you did not change the line back because of my poorly communicated humour. I thought you were right to remove. AukusRuckus (talk) 06:20, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

No worries. By all means remove again. It adds little. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

5 million roubles ($88,000) fine for WMF

Reuters: "LONDON, June 13 (Reuters) - The Wikimedia Foundation, which owns Wikipedia, has filed an appeal against a Moscow court decision demanding that it remove information related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, arguing that people have a right to know the facts of the war."] Martinevans123 (talk) 12:42, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Vlad explains that it's not an invasion, but rather a "special military operation" -- akin to the Special Treatment practiced by his mentors in disinformation. -- Sca (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes indeed, how lovely. And just as special as Uncle Joe's "special settlements". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

You might be interested in this pic. – Sca (talk) 17:48, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Chilling. [51] Martinevans123 (talk) 18:34, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Bruce Kent

On 15 June 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Bruce Kent, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 19:02, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for your improvements, PFHLai. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Vilnius vs. Vlad & Co.

The Lithuanian Parliament (Seimas) calls for criminal prosecution of Russia's leadership for the four-month-old Invasion of Ukraine.

Gera idėja! – Sca (talk) 13:22, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it certainly is a very Good idea! About time our dear Boris not-quite-Good-enough said the same. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:30, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Or did you mean Boris Badenov? -- Sca (talk) 13:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Not as clever, alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:40, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Kelly Jones

Hard to over-estimate what this guy and his band mean to Welsh music lovers, Welsh people in general. 25 years since Word Gets Around was released through V2. And now two sell-out gigs, to 60,000 people at the Millennium Stadium, the second broadcast live (with unbelievably good sound) on BBC Two. Just glorious. [52] Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

"We dress the same ways, only our accents change"

"I wonder if we'll meet again Talk about life since then"

Meanwhile... here's Stewart Lee on the philosophy of language, the Football Association, Roy Chubby Brown and Jimmy Carr.

... the funktabulous Cory Wong and pals.

.... Jimmy "Junior" Markham (solo from 1:50) with J. J. Cale at Cain's Ballroom, Tulsa (2004) [53]

..... Arnold Brown on encyclopedias, etc.

ITN recognition for Dom Phillips

On 23 June 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Dom Phillips, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Spencer^T•C 16:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. Glad it got posted just in time. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Capitals

Hello. With regards to your recent edit to the Premiership of Boris Johnson article, "the co-chairman of the Conservative Party" is not capitalised per MOS:JOBTITLES. Do you agree? Thanks. Andysmith248 (talk) 21:17, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello andySmith. I would not be surprised if there was an obscure and arcane MoS rule about that, although I understand that when the name comes immediately afterwards, the office title takes capitals. I was simply following what appears in the text at that article. In that particular case, Oliver Dowden gets named first, so I guess the MoS sub-rule doesn't apply and you were correct. As if it's a problem. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Neil Parish

Thank you for editing the sentence I wrote on Neil Parish's page regarding his feelings towards his colleagues. I wasn't trying to change what was written in the source and I thought what I'd written reflected it - so I appreciate you altering the sentence to amend my mistake :) 92.10.13.209 (talk) 21:58, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

No worries. Your version was perfectly fair. One always has to avoid copyright violation by just copying text. But it's often safer to stick to what the source says. I am no fan of disgraced Tory MPs, and I think Parish may have been very foolish. But I don't think he was corrupt, or a devious criminal or a twisted misogynist. I feel sorry that his 12 years in Parliament came to be wasted so quickly. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:10, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

2022 "Fake news" , War Crimes Hall of Fame and General Cretin Corner

• 
  Sub-human war criminal Vladimir Putin:
  "In a TV address on 24 February Russian President Vladimir Putin explained that the goal of invading Ukraine was "to protect the people that are subjected to abuse, genocide from the Kiev regime" and to "demilitarize and denazify Ukraine."
• 
  "Asked about separate war crime allegations on March 1, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told a conference call with reporters: "We categorically deny this." He dismissed allegations of Russian strikes on civilian targets and the use of cluster bombs and vacuum bombs as fakes."
• 
  "Vasily Nebenzya, Russia's envoy to the United Nations, insisted Moscow would present “empirical evidence” to the Security Council that its forces had not killed any civilians in Bucha and that the bodies had been “staged” as part of “hoax”.
• Kramatorsk Railway Station 8 April 2022: "At least 50 people were killed and around 100 injured.. The station was being used to evacuate civilians... At least five children were killed in the attack..." "The message in Russian "Za detei", meaning for or on behalf of the children, had been daubed on the missile in white." "Russia denies carrying out the attack".
  Kramatorsk Railway Station 8 April 2022: "At least 50 people were killed and around 100 injured.. The station was being used to evacuate civilians... At least five children were killed in the attack..."
  "The message in Russian "Za detei", meaning for or on behalf of the children, had been daubed on the missile in white."
  
  "Russia denies carrying out the attack".
• 
  Aleksandr Dvornikov: "Russian President Vladimir Putin is reportedly tapping the so-called "Butcher of Syria" to rejuvenate the Kremlin's offensive amid a string of military setbacks in Ukraine."
• 
  Russian cruiser Moskva: sunk Thursday 14 April: "The defence ministry said ammunition on the Moskva exploded in an unexplained fire and that the ship tipped over while being towed back to port."
  "The cruiser ship Moskva lost its stability when it was towed to the port because of the damage to the ship’s hull that it received during the fire from the detonation of ammunition. In stormy sea conditions, the ship sank."
• 
  22 April 2022: "Ukrainian officials say a mass grave site in a village outside the besieged southern city of Mariupol could contain as many as 9,000 bodies."
  "Russian forces accused of secret burials of Mariupol civilians in mass graves. Mayor says corpses thrown into mass grave which appears to be visible on newly released satellite images"
• 
  23 April 2022: "Missiles from a Tu-95 strategic bomber decimated Odessa on April 23, killing eight people, including three-month-old Kira and her mother, Valeria Glodan, 27. Her grandmother was also killed, and a further 18 people were injured", "Mrs Glodan's husband Yuri recorded his anguish in a Facebook post, describing how he had been out of the apartment when the missile hit. "My dear ones, the kingdom of heaven! You are in our hearts!" he wrote.
• 
  27 April 2022: Margarita Simonyan, editor of state broadcaster RT, says: “Either we lose in Ukraine or the Third World War starts ... I think World War Three is more realistic ... Knowing us, knowing our leader, Vladimir Vladimirovch Putin, the most incredible outcome that all this will end with a nuclear strike seems more probable to me than the other course of events." A male panellist then responds: "But we will go to heaven, and they will simply croak."
• 
  "Hitler also had Jewish blood", says Russia’s foreign minister: "So what if Zelensky is Jewish? The fact does not negate the Nazi elements in Ukraine. I believe that Hitler also had Jewish blood," Mr Lavrov said in an interview with an Italian television on Sunday. "Some of the worst antisemites are Jews."
• 
  Across Ukraine’s farm belt, silos are bursting with 15 million tons of corn from the autumn harvest, most of which should have been hitting world markets... A severe drop in Black Sea exports could leave as many as 13.1 million additional people undernourished... Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, claimed on a visit to Oman that Ukrainian authorities were refusing to let ships carrying wheat out of their ports and had mined the areas around ports. Ukraine said the accusations were absurd.
• 
  "Putin’s limbs are ‘shaking uncontrollably’ according to Russian spy, following recent footage of the president gripping table" Russian president Vladimir Putin has been given just three years to live by doctors, it’s claimed. A growing number of unconfirmed reports allege the 69-year-old president has cancer and that his health is deteriorating quickly.
• 
  "Britons Aiden Aslin and Shaun Pinner are sentenced to death alongside Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim". The court, which is not internationally recognised, is in the pro-Russian so-called Donetsk People's Republic. ... All three men were charged with being mercenaries ... A spokesman added that prisoners of war "shouldn't be exploited for political purposes" and pointed to the laws of war laid out in the Geneva Conventions - which confers "combatant immunity" on prisoners of war.
• 
  Sergey Lavrov, Foreign Minister of Russia said ""We didn't invade Ukraine... We declared a special military operation because we had absolutely no other way of explaining to the West that dragging Ukraine into Nato was a criminal act." When asked about the Ukrainian village of Yahidne, where "360 residents, including 74 children and five persons with disabilities, were forced by Russian armed forces to stay for 28 days in the basement of a school... 10 older people died"... Lavrov said: "It's a great pity... And very often they're being used to amplify fake news spread by the West."
• 
  Denis Pushilin, Head of the Donetsk People's Republic since 2018 said that Aiden Aslin, a British man sentenced to death by a Russian proxy court for fighting in Ukraine, would be executed saying: "They came to Ukraine to kill civilians for money. That's why I don't see any conditions for any mitigation or modification of the sentence." Aslin told his family his captors said there had been no attempt by UK officials to negotiate on his behalf.
• 
  27 June 2022: Dmytro Lunin, Governor of the Poltava region said 13 people were dead and 56 people were injured. A shopping mall in Kremenchuk with over 1,000 people inside. Vladimir Putin - murderer, terrorist, war criminal.
• 
  On 30 June 2022 Bernie Ecclestone appeared on an interview on ITV's Good Morning Britain. Co-host Kate Garraway asked if Ecclestone was "still a friend" of Vladimir Putin, to which he replied that he would "take a bullet" for him because he was a "first class person." He argued that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was just a "mistake" that all business men make.
• 
  1 July 2022: "Russia's missile attacks on residential areas in a coastal town near the Ukrainian port city of Odessa killed at least 21 people... at Serhiivka. ""The Russian side, which is once again talking about collateral damage, is inhumane and cynical," said German government spokesman Steffen Hebestreit.
• 
  On 17 July 2022 Russian Armed Forces launched a cruise missile attack on the Ukrainian city of Vinnytsia in central Ukraine, killing at least 22 people, including 3 children, and injuring at least 100 others. According to authorities Russians fired four Kalibr cruise missiles fired from a submarine in the Black Sea.

Please Don't Desert Us at Dessert

from Miss Hope Springs:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1537794414529093634/pu/vid/1280x720/i-VfWJKOmLoQuPMg.mp4

--Softlavender (talk) 00:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Oooh, ravishing! Noël Coward meets Carol Channing? Very droll, darling.... I was so unhinged I almost lost my bracket. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Indeed; apparently Hope has explained that Noel Coward wrote that for her (hence her name in the lyrics). I can't stop listening to/watching this. Would like to see/hear more from her. Softlavender (talk) 00:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Softlavender, you truly are "an oasis of guileless charm and wit". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:03, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah, so that's him! I've added him here. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 1 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. where have all the Wiki Good Times gone??

Well done old chap! Softlavender (talk) 23:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

June 2022

Your edit to Christopher Pincher has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information.
You have been warned before, I note, and clearly with this diff you simply copy/pasted from https://www.christopherpincher.com/about-chris
Please ensure this does not become a habit as you could then find your editing rights removed. Nick Moyes (talk) 22:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Subtle. Perhaps you can offer a re-write if those facts here? And you have reverted all those other copy edits that I made, afterwards, to other sections. Perhaps you can think of some paraphrases for his list of favourite authors? Or remove the quotes from "wine column"? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Nope - that's your job. And, mate: you copied the entire section verbatim from the MPs own page, and so I'm not going to discuss with you individual sentence constructions. I am however simply advising you not to breach our policy on WP:COPYVIO again. Learning how to put information in your own form of words is an essential skill to develop if you want to add content based upon copyrighted pages. If you can't do that, you might wish to consider finding something else to work on here. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I dispute that it was an exact copy. But of course we'll never know, because it's been disappeared. "His favourite authors include Evelyn Waugh, Arnold Bennett, R. L. Stevenson, John Buchan and Simon Raven." That's copyvio, yes, for which I might "find my editing rights removed"? Mate. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:24, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

What I do in such cases is sort names by alphabet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. But maybe our Tory friend purposely listed them in order of preference? Luckily we have all escaped the onslaught from Mr. Pincher's copyright lawyers over this one. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:10, 1 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. surprised he doesn't list "member of the Carlton Club".

First, I appreciate that clever link. I looked at the source, and I have another tip. He cites Evelyn Waugh.... as among his favourite authors. If you have other things from that source you'd like me to take a look at, I'd be happy to. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Did Waugh write a lot about fish? Seems he certainly knew all about the Carlton Club. However, I've been told, in no uncertain terms, that all of that stuff that our "pound shop Harvey Weinstein" reads is irrelevant. Not having much luck with Chris's personal life, am I. But then, I guess, neither is he. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, I'm half American and half human. I thought that Evelyn was a woman. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't want to appear transphobic. But I had heard that you were, in fact, born as a mermaid... Martinevans123 (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I think you may have confused Evelyn with Ethel. "Hey Tryptofish, everyone's staring at your wrasse!" --Tryptofish (talk) 18:18, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Purposely or not, the copyvio police doesn't care. Thank goodness in opera, I can always fill lists of of roles by adding the composers' names, or would have lost my editing privileges long ago. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:21, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, opera! Lately it seems we have to put up with editing mostly soap opera. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Cosima Wagner, and I thought that soap was over. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I had forgotten all about the "pound shop Harvey Weinstein": "Story said that he had been invited back to Pincher's flat, where Pincher massaged his neck and talked about his "future in the Conservative party", before changing into a bathrobe." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:17, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Finding refuge ...

Ukraine refugees flock to Germany, shun UK. – Sca (talk) 16:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Regrettably, no surprise. And as soon as they arrive, they'll be on the first plane to Rwanda. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Hoi Sin Crispy Owl

The Butterfield Diet Plan. A true classic. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:59, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Tractor porn corner

Phew, look at the size of the tyres on that! Martinevans123 (talk) 08:25, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

It can happen to anyone.[54]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:18, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

National Trust

You funny old thing you! I would be affectionately ruffling your hair and smooshing your lovely chubby cheeks if only this were real life! (Terms and conditions apply, YMMV, not necessarily legal in all jurisdictions) Cheers DBaK (talk) 16:56, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

See you down the Carlton Club, sexy. --"Pincher" Evans 123 (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely! And shall I bring my tiny tooter or would that be de trop? DBaK (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Yikes. I generally go for something with a bigger bottom end. But you can "leave your hat on" as Sir Tom might say.... Martinevans123 (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm, cheek: incapable of playing even a simple scale – welcome to my World O'Music™ DBaK (talk) 22:05, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, ok. I'm willing to consider something that was big in the boyfriend. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:13, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Assuming good faith

I really shouldn't need to remind you, but please try to assume good faith. If you think that the only reason I would remove something from Johnson's article is because I'm a Tory stooge trying to hide bad news, it's probably time to step away from editing for a while. Thanks SmartSE (talk) 13:59, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't recall describing you as "a Tory stooge trying to hide bad news." If I had said any such thing, I'd certainly want to "step away". I have assumed that you are editing in perfectly good faith, and I'd respectfully request that you extend the same courtesy to me. Entire sections of articles get "tidied away" all the time. As per WP:BRD it deserves discussion at the Talk page. Very sorry if "some of us are better at leaving our POV at the door." Or should that be congratulations? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:12, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

p.s. if you're worried that the "40 new hospitals" promise might have been a perfectly fair and reasonable manifesto pledge after all, here's a source that discusses the "Boris Johnson Brexit bus lie that the NHS would get an extra £350m a week".

All washed up... high and dry.

p.p.s. "AGF" for Johnson = "always giving fibs"...

Wow! Looks like the penny has now finally dropped!! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Pathetic grovelling to Chris Mason probably won't cut it, Boris. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I can't keep up! Going to start needing a précis of events so I don't wake up and find a whole bunch of confusing allusions on Twitter. Do you think Humpty Dumpty is about to fall? Softlavender (talk) 03:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Seriously is someone keeping score? How many is it now? Softlavender (talk) 01:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainian Melody

July songs

today: violin solo and you can listen Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

How wonderful. Thank you so much. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

You will always be Alchemilla mollis personified, to me, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:47, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

love that - yesterday I attended a unique concert - the 18th Thomaskantor after Bach conducting - and with some good luck caught him happy afterwards! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:15, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Gerda! Looks like a lovely evening. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, and I now have the complete program and a review. The program was called Salmo! - sadly not in Wiesbaden, perhaps they thought we'd not understand it means psalm! which means sing!. I had noticed that they sang Psalms 150, 100, 84 and 149. The review image shows the conductor even happier, imagine. It's detailed and all praise but sadly not going beyond Mendelssohn, while we found the late works especially impressive, listen to the 2009 Locus iste by (Welsh) Mealor. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Is that the one in Wrexham? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

"that" meaning the sacred place? Aberdeen. 500 years - forgot the word. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

You put Mealor... did you mean Maelor? choir? Thanks! Martinevans123 (talk) 10:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

You click on Locus iste, find composer Paul Mealor, and choir Tenebrae, YT at bottom, but there are others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah ok, thanks. Yes, Tenebrae are wonderful. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

So are Voces8, pictured - I have a FAC open, in case of interest --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd understand if you don't want to reply for a while, but perhaps you'd listen to some music from time to time? Voces8. I'll cherish your above comment for a long time, putting it in my blushing section. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Gerda, your posts are always welcome. I enjoy listening to music more than most other things. In fact, before to long, I might be taking that up full time. Thank you. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

nicely worded, thank you! - here you called me protective cloak in person, and what do I do? off to vacation, and then to a memorial service, back on Wednesday, take care and survive - glad that I see humour returning! remember you'r precious always --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:01, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

today: birthday music for a friend, after hiking in the Swiss Alps and a funeral with flowers on a bench and a Rilke poem --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Trying to contact you

Hi Martin, hope you’re well. Could I possibly get a Twitter DM from @stokel or an email to that username at gmail dot com, please? Would love to ask you a Q. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C8:5300:CB01:909B:B323:F1B:FACB (talk) 22:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Dear IP, no one wants to reply to random anonymous solicitations. The best way to ask a question of a Wikipedian is to ask on their talkpage; or create a wiki account, enable email correspondence, and then use the "Email this user" link in the left column of their userpages. Softlavender (talk) 01:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, don't use Twitter. As Softlavender says, you are welcome to email, of course. I am a fully paid-up Grauniad reader. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He's not gone.... but we should at least all be grateful. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:35, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Praise the (House of) Lord(s), the day may soon come when he will bore-us no longer. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, if only he could be immediately elevated into a perpetual state of rapture. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

It was so much easier in times past, when he could have been elevated to rupture. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Although one wouldn't want to see how the sausage was made. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps Graham Brady and pals will elect its first ever female chairperson. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. as you probably know, it's only thanks to Boris that the good people of Nor'n Ir'n can still enjoy the Great British Banger as part of their Olster Fray!

That must be the latest nutritive disaster to hit those unfortunate people. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:03, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Can someone please ping me when he's moved out of No 10 and someone else has moved in? I'm tired of wondering, searching, reading, re-reading, and re-re-re-reading. Softlavender (talk) 00:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

DM corner

The wonderful Brian Bilston
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"How Much I Dislike the Daily Mail" I would rather eat Quavers that are six week’s stale, blow dry the hair of Gareth Bale, listen to the songs of Jimmy Nail, than read one page of the Daily Mail. If I were bored in a waiting room in Perivale, on a twelve hour trip on British rail or a world circumnavigational sail, I would not read the Daily Mail. I would happily read the complete works of Peter Mayle, the autobiography of Dan Quayle, selected scripts from Emmerdale, but I couldn’t ever read the Daily Mail. Far better to stand outside in a storm of hail, be blown out to sea in a powerful gale then swallowed by a humpback whale than have to read the Daily Mail. Even if I were blind and it was the only thing in Braille, I still would not read the Daily Mail. [55]

The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed

"Pizza or sherry?"

Yes, I thought twice about both those points (whether to link the progs, and is/was)! Thanks for your input. PamD 12:26, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Well done Pam, for such a good and quick article creation. Kind regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:31, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

This sounds like a possible DYK candidate. Softlavender (talk) 23:32, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes.... Did you know...

• "... that the British Poet Laureate has a writing shed which contains a harmonium, a pizza oven, a daybed, books on birdspotting, a decent spread of music cassettes, and an impressive collection of sherry?" Martinevans123 (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

David Pearce

Good Afternoon,

I am enquiring why the legacy section was removed from the Wikipedia page? This is all relevant and has references.

There are other legacy sections on sportsperson on wiki. Can you please explain?

Regards 78.86.131.103 (talk) 13:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Good afternoon. I assume you are referring to the article David Pearce (boxer) and to this edit which has the edit summary "rm all the non-encyclopaedic and unreffed content that keeps creeping in, it's still a fan page packed with trivia, 'quotes', and anecdotes without references." The best place to raise your question is at Talk:David Pearce (boxer). Kind regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

An omen?

Does this 1905 editorial cartoon presage the fate of Vlad's Russia? – Sca (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, the table's not quite big enough for our Mr Putin, is it. But otherwise yes, one hopes. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

The resemblance is striking, wouldn't you say? -- Sca (talk) 18:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Putin really couldn't hold a candle to Peter the Great, could he. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Not in terms of killing forced laborers -- estimated at 30,000 to 100,000 in the building of St. Petersburg. -- Sca (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

 • You've got mail. Hope it's readable at yr end. – Sca (talk) 19:43, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, very interesting, thanks. Seem to be some parallels. A troubled land. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:35, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

 • TFA — Nothing like an extinct rodent to stir reader interest. – Sca (talk) 11:49, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

How about a soon-to-be-extinct suidae? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:50, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

He certainly can be a boar. -- Sca (talk) 13:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

No quarter

"Four-year-old Liza killed by Russian attack on Vinnytsia."

— Obviously an enemy of the people. – Sca (talk) 19:20, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

"Margarita Simonyan, editor-in-chief of the Russian state-controlled media said the individuals targeted in the attack ... were "Nazis"." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Figgers. I thought Liza looked an awful lot like a young Ilse Koch. -- Sca (talk) 19:30, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Boris Corner

Please do not open if easily offended
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
A touching personal tribute to our great leader from the wonderful Bard of Salford. "Anyone for some tasty Olster pie?" Remember.... back in 2019... "You put it in, slam it in the oven, take it out, there it is, get BREXIT done, take the country forward, unite, level up!" And now... in June 2022: "Hang on, we put too much meat in the pie. So we're passing a law that takes half the meat out. Sorry about that, everyone". Thanks, John, that's much clearer now (great track!)

And your handy Top Tips guide to those current pretenders, to the Royal Throne of Johnsonshire, in full.....

• Can you really truss her? (wardrobe by House of Grantham)
• Get already for Mr Rich man? (was actually all ready last October...)
• Is she really bad enough? (hey dude, she SUPER bad!)
• Tom Tom, the judge's son? (potential pig thief)
• Polly Morbid... (will the penny ever drop)?

King Tut

Please, please don't keep doing this, it's easy enough to source. I don't like playing the pity card, but I'm trying to get some serious work done despite my health. Doug Weller talk 11:17, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your health. Maybe you need to take a break? I don't "keep doing" anything. I'm just noting that the claim is unsourced. Thanks for adding that History News Network source, but none of Harry Von Tilzer, Jones & Hare or Sophie Tucker are named there. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:24, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I mean you aren't trying to source. HNN shows that King Tut was used that early. Tilzer is sourced, not sure why you mention him. Jones & Hare have a link to the song, but I don't care if you remove the two. And whu in Hell should I take a break from something I love and gives me a lot of support? Doug Weller talk 12:56, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not able to provide medical advice. I am wholly unware of your personal circumstances. Not sure what you mean by "Tilzer is sourced." That paragraph also says " "King Tut" became the name of products, businesses and..." Well maybe it did, but there are zero sources there supporting that claim. I've chosen not to remove the claims that are unsourced, in the hope that sources may be found. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't need medical advice and I'm out of here. Doug Weller talk 13:08, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Sounds like a winning combination. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:21, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Martin, I don't know anything about the content dispute, and don't want to, but I'm familiar with what Doug has been going through, and I'd appreciate it – seriously – if you'd cut him a little slack. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me. It's often very hard to know what other editors are facing. You have my full support, Doug. Let me know however I can help. Of course I have no issue with Doug, I'm just trying to improve Tutankhamun#Legacy, in particular the popularity of the name "King Tut". By all means add anything you can. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:49, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Sam Smith (English sculptor)

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The page Sam Smith (English sculptor) has been speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This was done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appeared to be an unambiguous copyright infringement. This page appeared to be a direct copy from http://sam-smith.org/bio/. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition has been be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

If the external website or image belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text or image — which means allowing other people to use it for any reason — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. The same holds if you are not the owner but have their permission. If you are not the owner and do not have permission, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for how you may obtain it. You might want to look at Wikipedia's copyright policy for more details, or ask a question here.

Please do not recreate the material without addressing these concerns, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If you think this page should not have been deleted for this reason, you may contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you may open a discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion Review. — Diannaa (talk) 20:31, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry if it was not clear that I was not challenging this block. I have tried to offer some explanation below, while seriously considering my position. But if the community doesn't accept that in mitigation, and the consensus is that mentoring is not possible, there not much I can do. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I have removed your Autopatrolled right

Hello Martinevans123. I have removed your Autopatrolled right, due to persistent copyright issues. — Diannaa (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:32, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

July 2022

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for violating copyright policy by copying text or images into Wikipedia from another source without evidence of permission. Please take this opportunity to ensure that you understand our copyright policy and our policies regarding how to use non-free content.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.   — Diannaa (talk) 21:07, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

So sorry to have to do this. I have blocked your account, because in spite of numerous repeated warnings and two blocks, you continue to add copyright material to Wikipedia in violation of our copyright policy. You cannot resume editing until you provide a statement describing how copyright applies to Wikipedia, show that you understand our copyright policy, and make a commitment to follow it in the future.

Note I have posted at WP:AN (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Martinevans123) to notify the community about this block. — Diannaa (talk) 21:11, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Not as sorry as me. Please forgive me if I don't send you any copyvio reports for a while. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:36, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Martin, please see this: [56]. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I just want to say that if need be I'll supervise/mentor Tryptofish in supervising/mentoring you. Nothing can go wrong then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EEng (talk • contribs) 00:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

And I volunteer to supervise you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I need all the help I can get, and EEng needs even more. (Oh wait, I'm not supposed to say anything humorous, because that will encourage Martin to kidnap someone's baby.) --Tryptofish (talk) 18:19, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Gerda. As with Trypto, I really appreciate it. Perhaps I won't give up. But "indefinitely" is quite a long time, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:10, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Please don't give up! Indefinite means undefined, no more, no less. Showing repentence and - more important - understanding for the concerns could make it short. I however, don't understand the concerns as (while I am aware that in general we have to say everything in our own words) I don't know about your particular crimes. I have seen productive editors driven away over copyvio allegations, Khazar the worst case I remember, and hope hope hope that you won't be another one. A dear friend and family member died yesterday, to put concerns in perspective. Back then, we fixed the articles Khazar had left, mostly about fighters for human rights. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda. Sorry, I'm really not sure any more. Once again, I was trying to add content too quickly. There is nothing like a post at A/N to show what other editors really think of you, so I am watching the comments there with interest. As valereee has kindly pointed out, this was a "copy-paste-edit-save" i.e. there was actually some "edit" there, where I tried to re-write the original prose and leave out all the material I could not re-write. Obviously I did not try hard enough. I find it incredibly difficult to "paraphrase" lists of facts in chronological order e.g. the galleries where Smith had exhibitions. I also attributed everything of course, probably explaining why I was blocked within five minutes. I'm not sure what percentage of my 205,768 edits have received copyvio warnings. But in this situation, it seems that all of the other edits count for nothing. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:26, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I think I understand that much. No more today, choir celebrating end of season. I try to avoid WP:Great Dismal Swamp, please understand. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

You are very wise to do so, like many, I suspect. I am very sorry to hear about your friend and family member. Yes, that puts everything into perspective. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Martin, I get it. It's tempting to think that by copy/paste/edit, we can come up with something other than copyvio. It's literally almost never true. Copyvio really can't be edited out. Copyvio even includes sentence and paragraph structure; you can't just leave out a few words, replace a few with synonyms, etc. You have to read the passage, then write a summary of what that passage says. It's literally better to just write a whole bunch of choppy straightforward sentences:

Alan Verner Smith was born in 1908 in Southhampton. His father was the captain of a steamboat. He attended boarding school in Jersey. He attended Bournemouth School of Art. He attended Westminster School of Art. He became a gallery assistant in London.

This partially explains Wikipedia's reputation for dry prose.

At some later revision, you can come in and make it prettier, or someone else will. valereee (talk) 16:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much. This is not something I have done "deliberately", just because I have assumed "an unwarranted degree of entitlement." Nor have I done it covertly, without showing my source. It's not helped by the scarcity of source material for Sam Smith. I am genuinely sorry for these breaches. Perhaps it's a shame there's not a separate block just for "adding new material" - I spend increasing amounts time warning drive-by IPs for vandalism, adding Categories, adding internal links, adding External links, etc., etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

"This partially explains Wikipedia's reputation for dry prose." Yes, and sometimes very dry and awkward. I often come across such examples in (usually neglected) articles and I always think to myself "Ah, at least there's going to be no copyvio there. That's been deliberately mangled to avoid that." But I very rarely go on to try and "make it prettier". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:23, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Another possible explanation, of course, is that the editor didn't really understand the source anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:26, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

And Gerda is 100% correct, indefinite literally only means 'until you've convinced someone that you are willing and able to try to correct the issue.' valereee (talk) 16:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Someone has already suggested I take a 6 month holiday. And it seems a WP:CCI will need to be performed. So perhaps difficult to convince anyone just yet. I thought blocks started off small and got bigger, if needed. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Blocks start out with what's necessary. In the case of something as serious as ongoing copyvio that has been brought up multiple times and hasn't been addressed, an indef is appropriate because it prevents the editor from making further problematic additions before agreeing the issue is worth addressing and agreeing to address it. Short blocks are for short-term issues such as edit-warring, with increasing blocks if the person engages repeatedly as a way to demotivate that behavior in future. The first block might be 30 hours just to stop the current edit-war. The second might be two days. The third might be a week. valereee (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Tryptofish, for your kind and practical offer of support, and so swiftly made. I am so grateful to you for being so positive. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Maybe, if you are thinking of taking some time off to reflect about this, that might be a good idea. It doesn't have to be six months, could be three. If, after some time, you feel like coming back (not necessarily that coming back is worth the aggravation), you could make a clear and sincere statement of a desire to fix things, and include in it a desire to do it under the conditions of my offer (which will still stand, assuming I continue to think that my being here is worth my own aggravation!). My impression is that this would be workable. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Some unsolicited advice: take the articles that were just deleted/flagged as copyvio and rewrite them without any copyvio and post the rewrites here. Then, assuming there's a CCI, go through your own CCI and flag/fix any additional problematic articles you find. Clean up after yourself, as it were, and they'll unlock the cell. Levivich (talk) 17:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Levivich, for making such a useful and practical proposal. I could certainly have go at that. It sounds like everyone would be a winner from that. And the interminable watchlist would be no distraction. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I think Levivich's idea is an excellent one, and one that's probably better than my own (although they could potentially be combined in some way). --Tryptofish (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

You get to review my Sandbox drafts? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. thanks - you're not allowed to thank people when you're blocked.

I could, if you agree to it. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, wait, reviewing your Sandbox drafts isn't a euphemism for something dirty, is it? Please note that the humor-impaired nitwits at ANI will see my comment as undermining the very serious nature of the problem and will encourage Martin to go on a crime spree. Yes, that's me (and not Martin) being disrespectful, and screw anyone who wants to block me for it. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

As you know, I'm not allowed any humour at the moment. By the way... last night it was about 30° here, when it's usually about 20°. And it still is. No-one needs "water cool and soapbox", do they. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Here where I am, in the colonies, it's 89°. (And we're illiterate about the metric system.) --Tryptofish (talk) 18:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I pressed the newfangled Reply button and now have no idea what I am editing. Soz man. I just wanted to say that I am fully in support of anything that gets Martin back to editing absolutely as soon as possible, like preferably yesterday. Walk of Shame anyone? I will bring popcorn.

Also, this: As you know, I'm not allowed any humour at the moment ... my word, what a gift to the satirist. I am merely going to allow myself a dignified titter, and move on rapidly. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 08:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I left some books in the cell from my recent stay, they're probably still up on the windowshelf. And don't forget to file your paperwork correctly, Levivowski. Levivich (talk) 17:47, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Ooh, backatcha, and then some. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. thanks - you're not allowed to thank people when you're blocked.

I'd like to add my name to the 'don't want you to stay blocked' list, and I'll be happy to help that come about if I can. I personally don't think you need a six month break - what would that achieve, except us all getting a bit older? - I think you need to demonstrate that you have got the message, that you accept that this stuff matters, that you have caused a lot of unnecessary work for other people who will handle the CCI, and that in future if you're not sure whether something is OK or not, you'll ask for advice before hitting the 'publish changes' button. I could write screeds about how I go about avoiding copyvio, but I'll hold off until you tell me you want to hear it. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Of course, your advice would be totally welcome. But there really is no rush from my point of view. One editor at A/N seems to be saying that I need to have "a chance to calm down." Thanks for your support and encouragement. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll put something together over the next couple of days - not much time tomorrow, I'm driving down from Scotland (where I have been avoiding the hot weather) to York, but I'll get onto it ASAP. The main thing that people are going to want to see from you in an unblock request is a clean acknowledgement that there have been problems, and a confirmation that you want to fix them.

Don't argue the toss about every comment made at ANI. Some of them might be bollocks, but there are problems that need to be fixed, and which need not to happen again. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I certainly won't "argue the toss about every comment." When you're blocked, your right of reply is largely gone. I just read some comments and thought, "wow, how long have they had such a grudge against me? Nice time to tell me". That's all. Thanks again for your fair advice. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:16, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't really think that they have been harboring a grudge against you. I don't think it's something that personal. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Many people now seem to be very keen to review all my previous content addition and to correct my mistakes, which can only be a good thing. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC) ... although I didn't realise that stuff inside double quotation marks, taken from a WP:RS, with full attribution, could be cooyvio.

To take from the book Tryptofish is a Nitwit by Jimmy Wales (Bomis Press, 2020):

"Tryptofish was born in the Atlantic Ocean, part of a spawn of 670 fry. Two very ugly fish were the parents, and the spawn happened in 1776." (in quote marks, followed by an inline cite to the book)

is a copyvio, despite the quote marks and the inline cite. But:

According to Jimmy Wales, "Tryptofish was born in the Atlantic Ocean, part of a spawn of 670 fry. Two very ugly fish were the parents, and the spawn happened in 1776." (with in-sentence attribution, the copied part in quotes, and followed by an inline cite to the book)

is not a copyvio, because it's completely clear where it came from. The difference is putting the "according to" part directly in the sentence. However, it's shoddy writing to quote it at that much length. So:

Tryptofish's parents were unattractive. Tryptofish was part of an Atlantic Ocean spawn, in 1776. There were a total of 670 fry in the spawn. (with an inline cite to the book, and no quote marks)

is the correct way to do it. Although it inevitably repeats some words and phrases from the source, it's arranged in a fashion that does not copy from the source. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC) Revised. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

There's also consideration of WP:fair use when quoting with attribution. We couldn't, for instance, put all of [57] into quotes and attribute it. In general we quote only that which illuminates in ways we can't by simply paraphrasing. valereee (talk) 18:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I honestly think I understand that. My creation of Sam Smith (English sculptor) would have been a lot quicker if I hadn't. But I imagine the consequences would have been just the same. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'd call that "attribution". Martinevans123 (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Attribution is the bare minimum required, and something that is completely unattributed is clearly a violation, but simply making an attribution can still violate copyright. (I revised the example multiple times, so please make sure you look at the most recent version.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I was replying to the first part of your comment. I had an e/c. I had thought my text was "arranged in a fashion that did not copy from the source." Evidently not. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Having seen the result of Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations#Martinevans123, it seems "This issue goes back for years." So it seems I won't be troubling you any further. So long. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:There is no deadline. Take as much time as you want. Please don't feel overwhelmed. Just take one piece at a time, and don't worry about fixing it all in a short period of time. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Martin, just take a bit of time to process. Don't react now. This can be managed, and there are obviously many folks who are offering to help. It'll look different in a few days. Whatever you do to relax -- a beer, a soak, a cuddle with the pups, a musical interlude, a deep dive into Love Island -- go do that. valereee (talk) 20:16, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

What Valereee said (...excluding the Love Island bit). No one can doubt your good faith dedication to WP. That's needed. There are issues to be sorted out, clearly. But have a breather and get back into it. DeCausa (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is so like Love Island in so many ways." - Discuss. I also need a holiday to trim down my watchlist (again) - I think 14,985 items might be too many. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:09, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Martin, I so hate to see this block. Your humorous quips area bright spot in an otherwise mundane and sometimes very dark place. I understand there are issues that need to be cleared up and I would and will help where I can as I am on something of a sabbatical from Wikipedia myself. Apparently I have a fundamental misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (I know, shocker) but an unwillingness to correct them when provided with "accurate information". The last part is the kicker. I gave an opinion, something given every day here. I still stick to my opinion but I respect consensus. I made an argument. The argument was rebutted by others who saw it differently. The statement that I am unwilling to do anything is the part I take an affront to. I would never characterize another good faith editor as having a fundamental misunderstanding of anything seeing as policies are so vague and change based on the consensus in any specific discussion. That's the beauty of Wikipedia. In many cases (not necessarily yours), you can be on the "wrong" side of a discussion on one article and argue the same point on another and be on the "right" side. I digress, take your break. Evaluate your situation. Make the corrections you feel are necessary. Come back to us and incorporate them with the help of those in the community that enjoy your contributions as well as your company. We need you here. Can you imagine how lost Tryp would be ( like a fish outta water)? But seriously, come back to "Love Island". --ARoseWolf 13:43, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah RoseWolf, I can't thank you enough... in fact, I can't "thank" you at all, because I'm blocked. I "bumped into" another long time editor, the other day, someone who I have always respected. I had not seen them around for a few months and had assumed they had retired. Felt sorry. Then I discovered why - they are currently blocked for 6 months for copyvio. Small world. I felt even more sorry. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Your "thanks" is appreciated no matter what avenue it comes by. I definitely feel sorry for the loss of countless former editors who had a great impact on the encyclopedia during their time here. I can't excuse or downplay the reasons for why they are no longer here but I can empathize. Tbh, I'm also a little jealous that some of them have been able to move on and not really think about this project. I do this when I am on an extended stay away, like for winter, but I genuinely care about the project and editors here, whether we have agreed or disagreed. That being said, perhaps one day I will just give myself a personal block and join those that have moved on, if for nothing else then personal health. My hope and wish for you is that mentorship is an option and you agree to where you can get clarity and begin to fix the issues that lead to the block. --ARoseWolf 18:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC) --edited 18:26, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

There is now a proposal at WP:AN, to change the indef block to a p-block from mainspace. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Section break

The CCI has been opened at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20220720. The 130k edits you've made to mainspace will be surveyed and then pasted onto that page, it'll look something like this, although there shouldn't be nearly as many subpages. The vast majority of the listed edits won't be copyright violations, and there will be no mass reversions of your edits. Edits that aren't copyright violations will be marked with N and nothing you added will be removed or otherwise tampered with. That means references, templates, copyedits, reverts, external links and other sorts of minor edits will be ignored. Pages with copyright issues will be marked with Y and content too close to sources will be removed/rephrased and problematic quotes will be fixed. The CCI hasn't been filled out yet because of the large edit count, but once it is a page like Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Dr. Blofeld CCI cleanup could be created, in order to coordinate a cleanup. I coordinated the Blofeld cleanup, which was a success and the CCI (which was the largest ever at the time) was finished in about a year; you have less edits, so a concentrated cleanup should go quicker. If you have any further questions about it, please ask me.

Something that might be useful are these Copypatrol reports made on edits that led to warnings: Concorde report, Church of St Thomas a Becket report, Jon Hiseman report, Sam Smith report. If you click on "iThenticate report", you can see the overlap between the edits and the source; that might make what the exact problems were clearer. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:09, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello Moneytrees. Thank you very much for your very clear explanation. And thanks also for those Copypatrol reports, which are very useful. Perhaps you could explain here how my having a p-block from mainspace, instead of an indef block, would affect me. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:47, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd then be able to make an informed decision, if it were to be offered. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:56, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, I notice in the Concorde report, that no distinction is made between free text and directly quoted speech. So is that quoted speech part of the coyvoio? Is all quoted speech potentially a copyvio? How do you tell? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

If you were p-blocked, you would be able to edit everywhere except (article) and/or Draft: space- you can still create pages in other spaces (such as rewrites in your userspace), you could comment at talk pages, the CCI, and noticeboards etc since those are in the "talk:" and "Wikipedia:" namespace. Copypatrol simply flags significant overlap in recent edits with other sources, so it sometimes picks up on things that aren't issues like larger quotes or lists, so not everything it highlights is a violation. The quotes in the Concorde edits aren't really the problem, it's more the text surrounding it- "Lord Heseltine revealed that as Minister for Development he was involved in a series of embarrassing wrangles over..." etc. The actual quotes, "That is probably right. But if you have your hands tied behind your back..." and the "next to nothing" are ok. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 22:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Moneytrees for that very useful clarification. It's a shame that a p-block is not a possibility. Even though, as someone had said at A/N, "it's shit work, firmly in the no fun zone", it might have allowed me to help clean up past mistakes and to actually learn the exact requirements for copyright compliance. I'd be happy to have my editing restricted to only doing that for a few months - or even for as long as it took. It's beginning to look like copyvio is not a binary concept, but a question of degree, that involves some kind of subjective judgement. But it 100% clear that some kinds of editing actions like copy-and-paste, even with adjustments, are just not permitted. However, I'm not sure how I would even be permitted to help "clean up" - as soon as someone spots any copyvio, it has to be immediately removed and usually revdel'ed? With no access to article space, I would not even be able to remove it. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:35, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

You being able to edit the CCI would ideally let you point out potential issues easier; as an example, commenting about any issues you know of under a listing. This can be seen at the Hongqilim CCI. Also, any cited books/other hard to access sources you still would be helpful. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:09, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

If it were to happen, you'd be able to edit your sandbox, as opposed to putting drafts on your talk page. But I need to tell you that, at this point, it has zero chance of being offered. I think it's pretty much final that the block will stay indef for now. Take as much time as feels right to you (does not have to be a specific number of months, despite some people talking about six months), and then see what you might want to ask for. No hurry. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I see. I'm not sure what the practical difference would be, apart from cluttering up the talk page a bit? I guess if I ever mistakenly posted copyvio material here, I'd get TPA removed. But if Sandbox access is equally controllable, I'd guess that access would also be allowed/ denied if I posted it there instead? Both are equally visible, except Sandboxes are not watchlist-able? But thanks for asking anyway. I had thought it might be a route for me to help clean up any of the copyvios revealed in the CCI. Perhaps it's all too cumbersome. I'm surprised that people are already deciding what should be done before the CCI has been concluded. But then I am wholly ignorant of the processes that are laid down for these circumstances, as should be quite obvious by now. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:34, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe that doesn't matter. (It would also let you communicate on other people's talk pages, and give input on article talk pages, but I didn't think that's what you were asking.) About the process, and about TPA, one thing to be aware of is that the convention about TPA is that it is specifically for asking about the sanction or appealing it or working on fixing the problem, not for general discussion. As time goes on, please be aware that some people might increasingly want to jump on you about that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Look, I'm pretty sympathetic to Martin's plight but the exchanges between the two of you make me wonder. If Martin wants to come back (which, yes, take time to think how he feels about that) it's not about what the mechanisms for what that might be. He's only going to come back if he can absolutely demonstrate he understands WP:COPYVIO. Really, don't worry about length of ban, p-blocks, mentoring etc etc. If you want to come back, only think about how you can master COPYVIO (because clearly you currently don't) and then show that you have that mastery. That's my 2 cents anyway. DeCausa (talk) 21:24, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. But I thought just adding a glib statement in a request for unblock would convince no-one, especially not those who have already made comments like "come back in 2032". I had thought folks were suggesting a mechanism whereby understanding of copyvio was actually demonstrated by proposed text. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:41, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, don't think about the mechanism for demonstrating understanding of copyvio at this point. It's too early. Ignore the siren voices. Just put all your efforts (if you want to come back) into understanding it. You don't actually need anyone else for that (IMHO). Once you've got that under your belt, you can worry about the mechanism then. DeCausa (talk) 21:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

DeCausa (not Martin), about the exchanges between us two, I'm just trying to help, and I would have thought that's OK. But you make a good point about focusing on the substance rather than on the process. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. I expressed that too harshly. DeCausa (talk) 22:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. As you can imagine, I'm a little sensitive about that today. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• Hi Martin, do you know about WP:EARWIG? You probably do since you have worked on DYK items. Anyway, I thought I'd mention it because it's a good way to check your work and prevent copyvios. Cheers mate, I hope you get out of wiki-jail soon. Softlavender (talk) 03:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Softlavender. Hope you are well. Yes, of course, I have it in my Sandbox and I have used it many times in the past (both in search mode and in compare mode), although obviously not quite enough times... As I was composing Sam Smith (English sculptor) in my sandbox, I remember thinking, "what I should really do is save this as a draft in this sandbox and run an earwig check against the website material." And then I thought, "if it is copyvio, then I'll probably have to get it rev-del'ed by an admin (as happened with Philippe Chaperon in 2019). And then I thought, "yeah I know which words are gonna be the same, anyway and some of those are just plain facts, which I can't paraphrase anyway...I'll just save it to main space and take out the suspect bits in a minute" and "oh, my god, this house is like an oven...". Not many seconds later to be distracted by something that looked more urgent on my too-big watchlist... and hey presto...I'm blocked. I think someone at A/N has called me lazy. In this case they are 100% right. And sorry if this little explanation looks just like a Government minister resignation speech, but "dems the facts". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  p.s. why is the Sandbox open to public view? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:37, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  p.p.s. thank you so much Andrew. There might be a good WP:DYK for you there! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:38, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  DYK is not much fun now that there are too many cooks. But I'm curious how you came to work on this topic as I'd not heard of this interesting chap before. Was it triggered by the Sam Smith whose death generated confusion and discussion at WP:ERRORS and ITN recently? Andrew🐉(talk) 16:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  In fact his "Bathing Huts" on last Sunday's Antiques Roadshow, where Fiona does her "Good, Better, Best" with expert Chris Yeo. It was first shown last February, and I had meant to do it then. I had heard of him in the 1990s, but I can't remember how. I was particularly interested in his automata. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  I've not watched that show since the good old days of Arthur Negus as The Repair Shop's format of restoring old junk is more to my taste. But I checked out your link and the examples were quite charming. "Sheep Shearing Man" was the star of the show and I find that we have Ron Fuller already. But Peter Markey was missing so I've made a start on him. That's just a stub but I like starting at that basic level and their meagre prose means that no-one gives you any grief about copyright. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  I must invest in more meagre prose. Thanks for finding such great sources for Sam Smith. Arthur was a real institution - but those bars on the windows were inlaid with mahogany. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• Hey Martin, I commented early in the AN thread and have been silent since. Maybe I was too harsh in recommending a six month break. I'm not going to behead a dead horse wrt copyvio as others have offered sage advice. I have high hopes you come back, head held high. Best, Jip Orlando (talk) 14:38, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• Hello again Martin, I will miss you if you remain blocked, and miss you if you are denied usertalk access or access to any non-article space. I urge you, during your wikibreak, to take this situation very very seriously. This isn't the case of a single rogue admin out to get you, and who might later be desysopped or whatever. This is many admins, and many copyvio editors, all telling a similar story. I believe that a cautionary tale can be had at the longterm journey into night of Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), who in addition to several personality deficiencies was mainly known and reported for endless years for copyvio problems he refused to address or clean up. No matter how many Wikipedians enjoy your company, your editing, and your contributions, if the issue at hand is not adequately acknowledged and addressed and remedied, restrictions and sanctions could stay. From my end, if I may: It's issues like these that have made me realize/decide that my goal on wiki is not quantity of valuable contributions but rather slow and steady and careful less-plentiful contributions that strictly adhere to Wikipedia's sometimes changeable policies and guidelines. Hope that helps. Have a great weekend, Softlavender (talk) 07:18, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
  • ^ Well said. I think that's excellent advice. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Paraphrasing

Don't know if this is any use, but I notice a commment about the difficulty of paraphrasing. I work in writing and publishing - and yep, paraphrasing can be a pig. My approach is that I never even try. I never use a source via the copy-modify-save method, and every word I write goes in through my keyboard (except if I need a quote, when I always copy-paste to be sure I don't misquote). So here's what I do. Firstly, I read a piece of source text several times until I properly understand it. I then close the text, and make a number of bullet-point notes of the key points (typed from memory, not copy-pasted). I then write some expanded text that explains those points in my own words. I can then check back for errors and omissions, and repeat the cycle however many times I need. The key point is that I never copy source text for modification, and I don't write my words while looking directly at the source text. I hope that might be of some help. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

The trouble with that approach is that you get transcription errors and it may then be hard to cite the appropriate source for each particular fact. And the more you deviate from the sources, the more likely you are to introduce subtle distortion and synthesis. Remember Gavin.collins who took the view that changing the source's text in any way was OR? "He believes that to summarize a source in your own words has a high probability of injecting original research, and this interpretation has caused him to repeatedly engage in significant verbatim copying from sources that result in copyright violations." So, damned if you do, and damned if you don't. See also Paraphrasing of copyrighted material... Andrew🐉(talk) 10:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, those are fair points, and I think it does need close attention to checking and verification afterwards. And just work on a small part at a time, for example one historical event. But yes, as you say, there are risks with whatever writing approach we take. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks both for your helpful comments. Yes, there are risks. The risk to me was that I would get blocked, and look what happened. I will be stepping back from the project for a while to reflect on things (and while the CCI is being compiled). I used to think that Wikipedia was in some way a creative enterprise. But I've rather changed my mind. At it's core, it's really not. It's essentially a duplicative process. And there's the central problem: authors and journalists (well the good ones, anyway) choose the exact words and punctuations they do for very good reason, to express exact meanings. If people are not permitted to use those exact words and punctuations, and instead have to paraphrase or re-write, it's highly likely that the meaning will be changed. Whether that change is too much might well be a subjective judgement. The other particular problem that I seem to have, is that there are often sequences of chronological events / facts in sources which I am unable to paraphrase e.g. a list of someone's favourite authors, where all we can do is change the order from the original source into strict alphabetical order - but even that, of course, might be seen as changing the meaning. Please forgive me if I do not respond to further comments for a while. I've become rather disillusioned with the whole enterprise, not just my particularly mistaken and stupid contributions to it. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

The sign-off to use in such circumstances is "Hasta la vista, baby", eh? Andrew🐉(talk) 14:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Either that or "But them's the breaks.". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, bon voyage my good friend. Take all the time you want, and make sure you find plenty of space for things that are fun for you. As I have pointed out many times to others, it's only a website. Not that important in the grand scheme of things, and so many other things are far more important. I understand that the main business here is to make articles useful for our readers, and everything else is secondary. But anyone who cannot also find it in themselves to recognize that all editors are also human beings (well, there's one fish, too), and that we should strive to enjoy one another's company, is emotionally stunted. When the time comes that you feel ready to come back, I hope that you will, and I know that you will find enough good people here who will help. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Gosh, that CCI looks like a lot work to check though. I trust the requesting admin considered the quality and duration of my two previous copyyio blocks before deciding. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

About the CCI, I'll try to help whenever you come back. Until then, I'll let the self-righteous work on it all by their lonesome selves. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Don't get too mad on my behalf at A/N, Trypto! Folks will start thinking you're as bad as me. And I certainly don't want that! We've all agreed Diannaa was only doing her job and most people agree she's incredibly hardworking and efficient, something I have never been here. She said sorry, which is more than most folks get. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, taking a bit of time off to relax and reassess things is often a good idea. Meanwhile, have one of these...

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		For many years of great contributions. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC) Boing! Thank you so much for that. It means a great deal. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

(Oh, reply tool, what are you like!? That's so boxing not clever. I was expecting that reply to fall outside the ring...)

• To all fellow editors who have offered support and advice here, and at the A/N... please imagine frantic dinging of the "thank you bell". And, if you don't follow it, many thanks anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

  Oh, Martin...😔 those of us who adore you are left with little to say or do short of offering our moral support. I'd offer more if I had more to give, but like Gerda, I too lost a family member - my middle sister died July 16th, and my mood/tolerance levels for WP have been hit and miss. I've been trying to stay focused on improving our experiences here by entertaining & proposing the potential of AI to check our articles, and lessen our work load by creating avenues for prevention. I do have a very plausible AI suggestion for you, though; it's called quillbot, it works well when used sparingly for a few sentences and very short factual paragraphs. When it's an author's opinion, it's always better to opt for inline text attribution. As you noted above, it's impossible to not copy titles, honors, proper names/locations, etc. but quillbot can help with everything else in between to avoid copyvio. Major hugs, my Wikifriend! Atsme 💬 📧 10:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Atsme. I'm so very sorry to hear about your loss. I'm not surprised that your enthusiasm for WP may have waned after such a shock for you. My deepest condolences. That quillbot looks very interesting. I wonder can it cope with the intricacies of MOS:ENGVAR. Yes I agree, it's impossible to not copy titles, honours, proper names/locations, etc. Chronological sequences of factual events are also a challenge. Warmest hugs for you too, Atsme. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Martin - Very sorry to see this, and that I missed it otherwise I would have dropped by earlier to offer support. It’s all very unfortunate, as I know your intentions were sound. And we’ve talked about the challenges of paraphrasing architectural descriptions before. Anyways, look after yourself and hope to see you back here soon. KJP1 (talk) 06:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 19

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Henry V of England, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Charenton.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 09:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

and which is it, - the first? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Who knows? I obviously don't. Thanks anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

In context, it had to be near Paris, not in the Loire, so I fixed it. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

thank you, always learning, now geography of France --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually, all I did was read that it happened while he was staying in Paris, and then I found that only one entry on the dab page was near Paris. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:01, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

CCI Notice

Hello, Martinevans123. This message is being sent to inform you that a request for a contributor copyright investigation has been filed at Contributor copyright investigations concerning your contributions to Wikipedia in relation to Wikipedia's copyrights policy. The listing can be found here. Thank you. Sennecaster (Chat) 19:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Very sorry. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:20, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Peek-a-boo, Jimbo

Dang I get startled, each time I come here & Jimbo peaks out from the left side of the screen. Anyways, hope you're doing alright. GoodDay (talk) 19:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC) ;)

Yes, it's so spooky isn't it. Almost an unhinged leer, I always think. If only I could pin him down. I am fine thanks, but embarrassed by the amount of "discussion" I have generated at A/N, without the full extent of my crimes even yet evident. Not least to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

If only you could manage it, so that Larry Sanger peaks out on the right side ;) GoodDay (talk) 20:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually, at Roxy the dog's page, where there is what looks like a fly on the screen, I was once leaving a message there when an actual housefly landed on my screen. Talk about cognitive dissonance! (Oh wait, I shouldn't be posting here, because someone at AN is actually counting the number of posts I have ever made here, because counting them is obviously a good use of time, and using it as evidence that this makes Martin a bad person. Sorry.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

As agreed, please just use the third litter bin along under Waterloo Bridge and the spondulix will keep flowing. Otherwise, you know... it's umbrella time for you, matey. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Church of St Peter and St Mary, Stowmarket

Hello Martin, hope you're doing all right, given the circumstances. I was hoping you could help me out with a source at Church of St Peter and St Mary, Stowmarket. Much of the article is sourced to "Paine, C. St Peter and St Mary's Church, Stowmarket, Official Church Guide, St Peter and St Mary's Church, Stowmarket", but I've been unable to locate a copy of the source. Do you still own a copy of it by any chance? No worries if not, I realize the article was written in 2015. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 14:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Also the church pamphlet cited at St Peter and St Paul, Checkendon - I realize this was written 2012 so may be more difficult. Again, no problem if not, it just makes things a little easier. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 14:50, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

PMC, following my reply to you at AN, I saw this. I'm glad to see you working with Martin on this. But I think this particularly illustrates what I was trying to say, about how Martin being blocked will actually make things harder for other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:33, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

How? If he were unblocked, someone else would still have to review the content against the source. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello PMC. Thanks so much for asking about those sources and those articles. I'm really not sure where those pamphlets might be by now. I will try and search. But then I'm thinking about how I could get them (or there content) to you, for a check against the article. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Depending on how many pages they are, a scan or even a reasonably hi-res camera phone photo would do in a pinch, just to have a glance and compare the wording. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry no scanner available and the quality might be a bit poor for a phone photo. I guess I could upload images to Commons. But that might be a breach of copyright? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking by email - if you email me via Wikipedia and I reply, you can attach the images to your reply. But again, no worries if you can't find them or don't have a way to take a legible picture. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:40, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

One more request if you have it, sorry - St Mary’s Church Hadleigh - Its History and Treasures, from St Mary's Church, Hadleigh. Cheers. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:46, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Any luck on these? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll keep searching... In the meantime, you might want to contact the vicarage. I'm sure they're not that expensive. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, shipping from the UK to Canada is. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, that might be an issue. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

That wouldn't be permitted at Commons. (And of course you can't upload them locally.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Gawthorpe Hall

Hi, hope you're not feeling too upset about all this. I thought I'd ask here, similar to what PMC just did: Do you have access to Dean, Richard, (1988), Gawthorpe Hall - Lancashire, National Trust, ISBN 184359188X, ISBN 978-1843591887 still? (WorldCat says the nearest copy is 5200 miles away :P) Ovinus (talk) 06:30, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ovinus. Yes, of course, my 1988 copy is sat on my book shelf. So access is a bit easier than your 5200 miles. But I'm sure the National Trust would be pleased to sell you a copy. It doesn't seem to be in their list for Northern England here. It's such a shame that revdel can't selectively remove all the "likely copyvio" and leave the intermediate, perfectly valid edits, by other editors, who might then feel a little less slighted that their contributions have been dumped out and disappeared. If you wanted to avoid any copyvio at that article you might want to have word with Lajmmoore. I always find precise, technical architectural descriptions so difficult to re-write without distorting the meaning. Kind regards.^© Martinevans123 (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Crikey - sending hugs

Currently tireless

I just popped to flag Paul Scott (novelist) but see trials and tribulations. I have no idea what went on, but ping me if you want to chat. Sorry you have got caught up in ANI and all. I would say you are the most tireless of tireless contributors and lasted many years more than me, though we joined about the same time, I think. I hope the weather is warm where you are and you enjoy the sunshine. All best wishes and condolences. Anna (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Anna. It was certainly warm last Tuesday. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

All the articles you steward are missing you. You covered so much ground! Hoping you will be back on watch sometime very soon. I hope you are getting good rain and enjoying some off-screen time. Sending best wishes and a cool glass of your drink of choice. Anna (talk) 22:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Too hasty

	Another cuppa tea
	I checked the edit stats for Bernard Cribbins today and you were at the top of the list of the 700 editors who had worked on the article, ready for this sad day. So, thanks for your strainin', heavin' and complainin'. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Cheers mate. Ah yes, a sad day, even with a cup of Wikipedia Tips. 93 is quite an age. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, a very sad day, like losing a kindly uncle. Anna (talk) 01:30, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

CCI

Copying these here, as sandbox not currently usable:

01

02

03

04

05

06 Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

If you are putting these here with the idea of starting to help, I can shoot a dozen questions at you about difficulties I am having in checking diffs, where your clarification would help. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:42, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello Sandy. Thank you for asking. Yes, that was my intention. Perhaps you could start with just one or two? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:52, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I got busy elsewhere and missed this. You frequently add summaries of various BBC Programmes (radio or TV, I guess??)-- things like who appeared on what show, when, using what songs. I don't think any of those audio recordings are now available, but my sense is that you summarized them in your own words so they don't need to be checked. If that's the case, I can start flying through and marking those with a no. Or you might pick a page of the CCI, and go through and identify the BBC Programme summaries, and post a list here so others can verify. That's a simple one to start with; thanks for helping out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:57, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sandy. I have occasionally added summaries of BBC radio and TV programmes. Some of these may well still be available on line, e.g. via BBC iPlayer. But not all editors might have access to these. Yes, I have tried to summarize them in my own words. Unless these summaries have been written down, I'm not sure from where any potential copyright can arise. I may have used many of the words used in the radio and TV programmes themselves of course and/or in the summaries already written about those programmes somewhere. These are the edits to radio and TV programmes that I can identify from CCI Page 1:

• The Fast Show (1 edit): (+1738)
• The Roaring 20's (TV series) (3 edits): (+965)(+215)(+165)
• Strictly Come Dancing (5 edits): (+947)(+272)(+185)(+177)(+173)
• Wake Up to Wogan (1 edit): (+865)
• Strictly Come Dancing (series 19) (6 edits): (+861)(+460)(+403)(+359)(+195)(+163). I'll try and have look at the other pages over the next few days. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:48, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

  Are you able to single out one or two that I might be able to actually listen to, to verify my hunch that you summarized these in your own words? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:07, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

  Or must I have BBC iPlayer to do that? I wonder if I can get that on the apple store ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:07, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

  Also, I'm referring to many that look like these: [58] [59]. Those strike me as simple statements unlikely to have copyvio, and you have a lot like them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:11, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Whatfield

Re this source, under "Licence", the website says "All data obtained from official sources is © Crown Copyright and is used under the Open Government Licence." Perhaps someone could explain if this means it can be copied into Wikipedia articles or not? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I would be very cautious about doing so. A close reading of what it says at the website is that the data from official sources is under Crown Copyright. Our page on Open Government Licence says it uses CCxBY; Wikipedia uses CCxSA. I don't know if BY is acceptable under SA (if you want to look into it, read up on our pages about Creative Commons licensing), but it is prudent to assume not. The website then goes on to say "All original material on British Listed Buildings by British Listed Buildings is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 UK: England & Wales License." So some of the material on the website is CCxBY and some is CCxSA; one has to figure out which is which. (You would also have to look up whether the UK: England & Wales part is OK at Wikipedia; I'll guess that it probably is.)

Once you have done that homework, a more important question is whether you would want to copy anything anyway. I'm pretty sure you already know that I'm going to say don't. There are some very basic things that you can copy without paraphrasing: for example, at [60], nobody should have a problem if you use the phrase "Grade II Listed Building in Ryde, Isle of Wight" to describe "The Promenade Pier".

I looked at the edit history of Whatfield and I see that the rev-deled part had to do with St. Margaret's Church. I can't view what was removed, but I see your edit summary of "not sure how this could be better paraphrased to avoid copyvio, these look like architectural facts to me". In hindsight, you needed to have paraphrased better. If it wasn't clear to you how, in the future, please ask (asking me is fine) before making the edit. I went through the website, to see what they say about the church, and they list 100 of them, and I'm clueless as to which one is the right one. So I'll arbitrarily pick this one to illustrate what I mean: [61]. So part of what I read there says: "C13 origins with C14 tower... and Welsh slate roof." It's two sentences. I just put the beginning and end here, with an ellipsis in between, because that is way too much to copy verbatim. You can look at the passage there. I'll try to paraphrase it here:

"The church is classified as C13, with a C14 tower and C17 buttresses. It is made of stone masonry with brick repairs, and has ashlar ornaments. The roof is constructed of Welsh slate."

If, for example, you wanted that part for Wikipedia, the way that I rewrote it would be fine. Copying the original would not, and one would be on thin ice, trying to argue on the basis of the licensing. In any case, you would of course have an inline citation to the source, but it's the re-wording, not the citation, that is of the most importance. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice Tryptofish. Yes, I don't think the material at that websote that falls under CCxBY and CCxSA is separately marked. Does a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 UK: England & Wales License mean the information can be reproduced only in England in Wales? I won't know exactly that I wrote about St. Margaret's Church, unless I ask for a copy, which can't be pasted into my Sandbox, as that might be copyvio. I'm not sure whether the inline citation or the rewording is the more important part of an edit. Giving a citation at least allows another editor to check if it's been reworded well enough I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:03, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

As for the England & Wales part, I'll leave that for you to research. As for where you're not sure, it is absolutely more important to rewrite. Not even close. The inline citation is for WP:V, but it's never an excuse for a copyvio. It's fine for another editor to check the source for WP:V and accuracy, or for more information, and that's why we require sourcing. But it's no good to expect another editor to check for copyvios. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello! I happened to land on your page and realized I can answer this question! You can see this page for more information. All versions of CCxBY are okay to use on Wikipedia, as long as you provide attribution in the edit summary and in an inline citation. The inline citation should look something like this: <ref>{{cite web |url = example.com |title = example title}} {{free-content attribution}}</ref>. The England/Wales license can be used anywhere, but it has been tailored specifically to England and Wales (it references things like the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999, and requires that any legal action take place in England/Wales). Luckily, that CCxSA 2.0 license can be "upgraded" to the CCxSA 3.0 license on Wikipedia, so it would not be a copyright violation as long as it was attributed properly. HouseBlaster^talk 00:29, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Under these specific circumstances, I think it would be ill-advised to test the principle. Direct copying with attribution invites criticism that the problem is continuing and the excuse is wikilawyering. Rewriting is safe. If there is a compelling reason to copy in the form of a quote, it should be attributed not only via the edit summary and an inline cite, but, additionally, by putting it in quotation marks and including language like 'according to British Listed Buildings, "quote, quote quote". ' Just because one can do something doesn't make it prudent to do it when under scrutiny. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

+1. I should have been more clear that I was answering the question, not encouraging you to do so under the circumstances. HouseBlaster^talk 23:09, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Tune

Have been blown away by this since I first heard it about 24 hours ago[62]. You can see some in the piano bar are totally into it, and other sad sacks are reading their phones, the bastards. The sound is so damn visceral; its all attack, all the time Ceoil (talk) 02:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Ceoil. Yes, it is all attack, all the time. Quite good though. Here's something a little more mellow from Brian Blade & The Fellowship Band (March 2014). Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

This is weird

I'm working on one of the articles you started (Nicholas Evans (artist))and will shortly be uploading it to draft. I can't see much justification for the copyvio report; almost all the information is available from other sources. It wouldn't have taken two minutes to find the BBC source that they said they couldn't find. Deb (talk) 15:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

un peth arall

As far as I can see, you aren't blocked on Welsh Wikipedia, and you would be welcome over there... Deb (talk) 13:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Diolch am y gwahoddiad, Deb. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:59, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

August songs

August songs

pics and thoughts on 13 August - the project is not the same without you -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

and on 15 August: "my" concert of the year (so far) is on the Main page, but not pictured, and I don't understand why - enjoy the music! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:01, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

yesterday, Tenebrae sang all-English music, very impressive, namely Requiem (Howells). completely different question: do you know anything about a setting of Psalm 35 for men's chorus by Mansel Thomas? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Alas, I do not. But there are some Psalms listed here. Here's his "Cennin Aur" ("Golden Leek")! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:07, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, perhaps that's enough for the purpose. - Off to concert, Christoph Eschenbach conducting Bruckner. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

The last week brought more outstanding concerts and bike tours (and it was Dvořák not Bruckner, sorry about that), - how is your summer? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

+ another great tour on Debussy's 160th birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the links, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:23, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

more, and one of tonight's Bach concert to follow - will write a St. Martin thinking of you ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

followed now, - you'd have loved the oboist, and the program book didn't even give her name. Ich habe genug. - Whe Graham Waterhouse was fired as teacher at a music school, he wanted to use the motif for a piece to be performed in their summer concert, but I recommended Elias, instead, Es ist genug (Mendelssohn). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

St. Martinus pictured on the Main page, and look for Stardust on my talk. The composer has no article yet, - could you find sources, perhaps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:46, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Gerda. Found Stardust by Voces8 on YT. Apparently, was commissioned especially for them. Quite stunning. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

That's good to know. The day will come for his article. Now I really heard Bruckner 7, with the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester, Jukka-Pekka Saraste stepping in for Herbert Blomstedt, - soaring. I guess you'd also have liked Jaroussky and guitarist Thibaut Garcia, everything from Dowland ("... I kiss, I die") to chansons from Brazil. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:10, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Today was that day (that I started his article). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:46, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi

Hello Martin. I'm sorry for your difficulties. If there is anything I can do to help, please just ask. John (talk) 22:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, John. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do now is to get the CCI completed. Until that happens, I think there will remain a bunch of editors (not least SandyGeorgia) who will be absolutely opposed to any sort of unblock until the enyclopedia is completely cleared of copyvio that originated with Martin, and if there is a significant understanding from Martin about how to avoid introducing copyvio in articles. I miss Martin, I think we all do, but my priorities are towards the integrity of the encyclopaedia, unfortunately. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

The ping failed but I saw it on my watchlist. I don't know how you came to single me out, as I took no position at the ANi block discussion. I made comments about how to help at the CCI, how pervasive the problems were, how to catch situations like this sooner, and how to prevent similar going forward. And I asked questions (that I don't believe were ever answered) of those supporting or offering to mentor, as those people did not seem to appreciate just how bad the situation was. I've been on the receiving end of an editor (LTA User:Mattisse and her decades worth of socks) who was offered an Arbcom-sanctioned mentorship, and saw how much damage well-meaning mentors allowed to continue--damage that affected both articles and people and processes. Perhaps it wasn't clear; my issue at the ANI was with the cluelessness of those offering to support or mentor. Wikipedia is not meant to be a site for building friendships, or continuing and protecting them, and the reasoning offered by some on the ANI seemed unrelated to the clear problems in Martinevans123 edits. Having worked on the CCI, it is hard to see what the Wikifriends were supporting. I am as concerned about the absence of valuable edits as I am about the copyvio; the latter is a policy issue, but the former makes me wonder what supporters were supporting. Maybe if someone answered that, I'd form an opinion about unblocking, but I haven't yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Sandy, it's become abundantly clear to me that I messed up very badly in that discussion, but I would have wanted to answer any questions that anyone asked me. So my failure to realize that you had asked me questions is my fault, for which I apologize. If there is something you want me to explain, please let me know and I'll try. It's not my purpose to convince you one way or the other about what you might or might not support, but I wouldn't want to leave any questions to me unanswered. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Not to worry; I would not have even raised this had I not been pinged, and I am just way too busy (both on Wikipedia and in real life) to revisit that discussion. I'm also not worried about anything in that particular past, or possible mistakes you have acknowledged several times, or needing to be convinced one way or another at this juncture. Time tends to lend clarity on matters of editor behaviors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi SandyGeorgia. Many thanks for your very thorough work ongoing at the CCI. I see that you marked this edit as "presumed, book, but already fixed". If that is a copyvio, I wonder could you suggest how it might be re-phrased? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

(Courtesy pinging SandyGeorgia) I would say that example isn't actually a big issue; might have only been in the interest of expediency. Ovinus (talk) 22:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

You are valued

Hopefully you can make your comeback...we all need you're intense high quality work. Thank you...Modernist (talk) 23:34, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I was hoping for basic. But alas Fionnaa has revealed just a very shabby fake. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC) p.s.

Amen with knobs and ribbons on. Anna (talk) 23:49, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

By me too.--Smerus (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks folks, That's really appreciated. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Martin, I hadn't realized you were blocked; it was apparently at AN, not AN/I, so I didn't see. Damn. I hope you can make a successful unblock request. Soon. Miss seeing you around. Yngvadottir (talk) 09:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Yngvadottir. Judging by some of the comments at A/N and at the CCI e.g. "... he rarely did any real writing", "come back in 10 years...", I'm really not valued here at all. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:20, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Martin, that's simply not true for many of us. People can be cruel. People can be mean. People can also have an opinion. Some like you, some don't. To those that care about you and like you being around you do have value. For those that don't you most likely wouldn't have value no mater what you did. Comments are comments. They have no bearing on your value in the slightest. Don't go down this road, please. Stick in here and stay strong. You still have those that support you. --ARoseWolf 20:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry; I genuinely had no idea. I'm a bit of a ghost here these days. But in addition to what ARoseWolf says, look at the section at the bottom. I'd love to see you post a successful unblock request soon, and I note that you have been working with Tryptofish, especially, to analyse your article additions and establish that you have an adequate understanding of copyvio. (I have worked mostly in different areas where I don't often want to add a string of names or other such specifics, but I'd add the advice that the best way to avoid overly close paraphrasing is to summarise instead of paraphrasing.) It's up to you when you feel ready to apply to be unblocked—at which point I looked for the discussion at AN and established that you are not community blocked/banned—but you're on the right path and yes, I and others care about you returning. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:02, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Martin, I suspect that you pointed to those comments as a way of venting, which you are very much entitled to do under the circumstances. But, as ARoseWolf says, those comments aren't worth the pixels they take up. Believe me, people have said similar things about me, and worse. When I was a new editor, an established administrator said that I was a stalker and a troll. I won't link to it, not wanting to dig up old dirt, but that's true. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

A/N sometimes seems to bring out the worst in people, perhaps in their relentless effort to show that they care about the project and its principles. Ah, so its true, Trypto, you were a stalker and a troll! I'm glad you can now admit it and we can all move on. [63]. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I can add more. I've recently been declared a vandal and harasser: [64], and I have no doubt that many would consider me to be an asshole. And, of course, I smell bad too. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah, tasty!!. And here's the wonderful original for those who might wanna throw some serious shapes in the local diner!! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2022 (UTC) Yes, folks I still feel like Jimmy lurking as Gene Takavic, the manager of a Cinnabon in Omaha, Nebraska.

Yes, indeed! (Now that's the Martin we all know and love!) Just remember about AN: big pixels, little dick. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Tryptofish, Stalker? I have perfectly nice trees outside my house you are free to take up residence in if you ever get the urge. Bring a coat. Troll? Depends on the color hair, I like rainbows. Do you dance? Glitter? Vandal? Well, we all know that's true. I think I read it on the internet somewhere. Harasser? Yes. please! Asshole? Meh, I swear I only called you that as a term of endearment. I won't comment on the smell. --ARoseWolf 13:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, quite famous, I think: "...leading people through the "Zone", an area in which the normal laws of physics do not apply and remnants of seemingly extraterrestrial activity lie undisturbed among its ruins. The Zone contains a place called the "Room", said to grant the wishes of anyone who steps inside. The area containing the Zone is shrouded in secrecy, sealed off by the government and surrounded by ominous hazards." Martinevans123 (talk) 17:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, that reminds me. I'm an ominous hazard too. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:21, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll seventh that, good luck on OnlyFans! InedibleHulk (talk) 07:00, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

At least you get paid over there. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:45, 15 October 2022 (UTC) ...and copyvio is less of an issue

Douglas Gretzler

Hi, Martin.

Do you think the above article should be renamed Douglas Gretzler and Willie Steelman? The two operated as a duo, and neither is more culpable than the other. Kieronoldham (talk) 22:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

(talk page watcher) Kieronoldham, under the terms of his block, Martin cannot really answer that question, except as it might apply to CCI. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't know that, Tryptofish. Hopefully he'll be back on here soon.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

No worries, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Fwiw, I don't think anything prohibits him from answering that kind of question. Ovinus (talk) 04:01, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Ovinus, I think I know what I'm talking about. Being blocked from mainspace also means not making edits by proxy there. For just answering a question, that's on the borderline, but I don't want Martin to accidentally get into trouble, especially since there are people watching who will be looking for an excuse to pile on. I've seen editors who answer questions like that get their talk page access revoked. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Tryp here. It would be best if Martin did not answer questions outside of those related to the CCI as it might be seen as editing by proxy. I certainly don't blame @Kieronoldham for asking the question and would encourage them to seek community guidance from the Teahouse or using the article talk page. --ARoseWolf 16:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I see, I didn't know that's how it worked. Thanks y'all. Ovinus (talk) 19:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

And once again, no worries. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much Ovinus for all your hard work in the CCI. With regard to "I Am" on Sanity Stomp, there seems to be some confusion on the attribution of the lyric, with two different discogs pages providing different answers. Not the best source anyway, I guess. The original poem was by John Clare? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Kieron. That's a very interesting article and a very gruesome story. Thanks very much for asking for my opinion on that; I've emailed you my view, but I haven't yet really looked at all the sources and what views they express. I'd certainly agree with ARoseWolf that the best place to ask first is at the article Talk page. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

September music

September songs

Last year, you liked this pic. 1 September: I remember the Vespro della Beata Vergine, 2 September: the last of the Rheingau Musik Festival concerts, and today we can read The Story of Mr Sommer, and follow Ruth Lapide. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the links, Gerda. Still a beautiful image. I see that Daniil Trifonov was at Rheingau this year. Here he was in 2019. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:08, 5 September 2022 (UTC) p.s. some 1971 Air for you... "A slow boat's gonna lead me where I'm bound. I'm far to travel, far across the distant seas..." (written by Moogy Klingman)

Thank you! - Today's recommended reading: Opera in Ukraine (not by me) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:04, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Today Lars Vogt. FAZ article comes with Betovi 3 video, must be on YT - too tired to check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:14, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Queen's 80th Birthday at St Paul's Cathedral, 2006

found it, - a rainbow today, and a deer yesterday (but hard to see) - Jubilate Deo --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

God bless Queen Elizabeth II. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Requiem. - We rehearsed Verdi's, will do all weekend. Lars Vogt. Mariella Mehr. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

How very fitting. I hope it goes well. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Edward Elgar Sospiri (1914), performed by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment in 2021. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Would you know what the music for Her Majesty's funeral would be? - The rehearsal went well, and the concert will be next month, with a small group of players, winds, brass piano. We 'do' strings in the Lacrimosa, humming. - The rose pic was taken on 11 Sep 2021, and this year was full of music that day, Tag des offenen Denkmals, not only singing in church and rehearsals for the Requiem, but two concerts at special places pictured, one a synagogue (pictured on its wall). Today three DYK: a piece we'll perform on Sunday, a violinist we heard in June playing the Berg Concerto, and a Youth Orchestra shaped by a conductor who recently died. Almost too much of a good thing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

James O'Donnell (organist) - for a sad reason, I'd like to improve that article, help wanted. How do we know that he composed the psalm setting (vs. conducted)? (It's on YT, but that's not a source). What else to mention? Sources please. I need a break. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:16, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, personally, I only know it was his arrangement, because Petroc gave the credit during his commentary of the laying in state here (at approx 1:06:40) "inspired by the Orthodox Kontakion for the dead." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, that's interesting. I never quoted from radio, though. In this case, I found a source saying it's his work. No idea though if written for the occasion or earlier. Nevermind, Template:Did you know nominations/James O'Donnell (organist). - If you want me to archive some of this talk I could do it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

BBC player works only in the UK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:13, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's a huge limitation for those who can't pay their £154.50 for colour TV and £52 for monochrome TV. But I guess it must reduce the global risk to Wikipedia of inadvertent copyvio. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Well done, Gerda, with James O'Donnell. That was quite a transformation. [65]. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:14, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! - the latest pics show clouds, much awaited! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I added one with strange light. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Today, we sang old music for two choirs at church, pictured, scroll to the image of the organ of the month of the Diocese of Limburg (my perspective), and if you have time, watch the video about it --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:16, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

... and today I wrote an article about music premiered today, Like as the hart. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:57, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

... and yesterday I wrote Who shall separate us? and today we enjoy Spannungen (tensions, sparks ...) - chamber music --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

travel and strings sound --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Saint Michael defeats the Dragon, from a 12th-century manuscript.

Thanks, Gerda. I must admit that "Spannungen" does sound, to my uncouth British ear, a bit like some kind of niche car servicing product. Ich entschuldige mich. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

the first meaning is voltages or tensions, of the power station they play in, but then of course more meanings, such as you want a crime story to be "spannend" - last images for September, - music to explore, a Ukrainian baritone first, and the new Casals Forum for chamber music is just wonderful. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. And Happy Michaelmas anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Bernard Cribbins

Apparently I made a copyvio edit at that artcile at 23:11 on 11 October 2021‎? Does anyone now know that that was? I'm less concerned about that edit, whatever it was, being reverted, at 02:40 on 29 July 2022‎, than about the 263 intermediate edits, by many other editors, that got taken down in the subsequent rev-del process. I guess they are all also now forever lost from the record. Was the copyvio so serious that it justified such action? I realise I run the risk of having my talk page access removed for questioning the process. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it's a perfectly reasonable question, and directly related to the CCI. I'm no expert on rev-del, but my understanding is that edits by others, that did not directly modify whatever the copyvio was, remain on the page and are not deleted. What gets deleted is the original copyvio and edits that subsequently modified it without actually removing it. Each edit made by each contributor is now admin-only for viewing, but the record is still preserved. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:36, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

On a separate but related note, I was sad to see Bernard leaving our mortal coil. My favourite song of his was "Gossip Calypso" and I'll miss him. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:51, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, a good one. I have it on good authority that you can't put a hole where a hole don't belong. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, that's a relief. I can't actually remember what I added on 11 October last year. Ideally it would be beneficial to see what I added, what the source material was and a demonstration how that could have been reworded to avoid the copyvio. But I don't suppose that's possible, as nothing can be hidden at Wikipedia (... except that material which an admin decides should be hidden?) I appreciate the efforts of editors at the CCI who have rewritten material. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:22, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Nice one, Brian Harold...

A real highlight... (3 June 2002). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Thinking about you

Miss you, Martin! Atsme 💬 📧 13:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Awww, that's so sweet, Atsme. I hope you are well.... have some tasty Nile and Bernard! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:16, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Thoughts on unblocking Martin

Firstly, I don't think I'm the right person to do this as I probably have a conflict of interest (if nothing else, my talk page is feeling pretty dull at the moment without the spice of Martin's japes and tomfoolery.

However, I notice that on ANI, a thread I started about Doug Coldwell's copyvio concerns (which have been extensively reported) in pretty much an identical manner to Martin (no, this wasn't disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point, if it was, nobody would have supported it). If the community can't see a consensus to block Doug over copyvios (which are being reported even today), then logically there must be some way of finding a consensus not to leave Martin blocked, right?

Does anyone else have any thoughts. The other option is, perhaps, to take the standard offer, but that'll require a bit of a longer wait. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:42, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

"Well actually, Sarj333, I've got a book I'd quite like to read...?." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ritchie333 I'm not sure that's a great comparison case, since Martinevans123 had been previously warned and blocked over copyright issues; Doug Coldwell hadn't, aside from the CCI opened on his old edits. Part of the opposition was based on a "this is moving too fast" feeling; another part was that the topic ban from DYK/GAN was enough for now. If an unblock is desired, something along the lines of that- a restriction of some sort or a partial block- would probably go over better. (not that I'm particularly opposed to an unblock or anything, just trying to be realistic) Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 15:34, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

It looks to me like Martin does sincerely want to get back to being active. But I think that the rest of us need to be patient, and let him go at it at his own pace. It's really up to him how to frame a request (and by policy, no one else can do it for him). It comes down in large part to making a satisfactory case that he has been trying to help with the CCI, that he understands the problem, and that he is committed to fixing it and not doing it again. I don't think an "otherstuff" argument will work. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

As previously agreed, I am quite happy to wait for the completion of the CCI. The air of desperate panic that accompanied it's opening now seems to have somewhat dissipated, to say the least. That's not say there aren't still many more edit rocks waiting to be turned over, to reveal true copyvio horrors lurking beneath. I wish I could remember which they were. Alas, I'm still not sure how I can help. I guess I could trawl through all the remaining CCI pages and try to bring to editor's attention here those which might warrant more urgent attention. But some may say that's just a waste of time. Or that I'm not permitted to help, of course. I'm not even allowed to archive (what used to be) my Talk page at the moment (although it's not entirely clear to me what the risk to the project is with that). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:40, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

This one came across my watchlist changes today. Dianaa removed as copyvio (from this website) what was largely added by this user here in 2010. It's not for me to say how many other such edits have been made, but it is being brought to light by others. Seasider53 (talk) 00:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello Seasider53. This user respectfully asks if you can suggest a re-write that avoids any copyvio. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Try using alternative words for starters, then reorganise a sentence structure. You know, things we learned at school. Seasider53 (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the clear example. Maybe you want to improve the article? I’m blocked. Maybe I need to ask a grown up. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm 66, and have been told that I'm a grown-up, and I think that Seasider53's advice is sound. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes Seasider53, Diannaa removed that material, although she did not rev-del it. No-one has edited there since 19 September. The source still works, so you might like to provide an example of how some or all of it might be re-written. Or perhaps you'd like me to have another go? I suspect that there might be better, more authoritative, sources available; if you have any suggestions, that would be very helpful. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Interesting how the alternative to not plagiarising is just asking others to write stuff instead. Seasider53 (talk) 16:30, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I've asked if you'd like me to have another go at re-writing and if you had any better sources. So there's not just one alternative, is there? I was also assuming that you're much better than me at avoiding copyright infringement and that you might welcome the opportunity to demonstrate how it's done. I think "plagiarising" is where you don't actually attribute any sources at all? As Inglewhite is also on your watchlist, I had thought we might have a shared interest in improving it. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:16, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

The way that I think of the meaning of "plagiarism" is that it is presenting content as though it were one's own original work, when it is actually someone else's. Superficially, that sounds the same as not attributing to any sources at all, but there's a distinction that I think is useful to understand. It's still plagiarism if it seems to a reasonable reader that it is one's own original wording, regardless of whether there is a source cited. For example, in a properly written WP article, there might be an inline citation at the end of a particular sentence. A reasonable reader would assume that the information in that sentence was found in the cited source, but that the way that the sentence was written was in the WP editor's own original choice of wording – not that it was copied by the editor verbatim from the source. So citing a source isn't enough, by itself, even though it's a necessary first step. Another thing worth knowing is that it is still plagiarism if it is copied from a public domain source, even if it doesn't violate a copyright, if the fact of the copying is not explicitly clear to a reasonable reader. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:41, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see. So you are essentially agreeing with Seasider53? I had realised that "citing a source isn't enough". Does Wikipedia policy make any distinction between plagiarism and copyright violation? Perhaps it's academic. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Well, as for how WP policy treats it, Wikipedia:Copyright violations says right at the top that it's a "Wikipedia policy with legal considerations", and that's about as serious as WP gets. Wikipedia:Plagiarism is a "content guideline". I'd regard it as a guideline that should also be taken seriously. And Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources and Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing are essays that help explain the policy and the guideline, and are well worth-reading. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:02, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia:Plagiarism says: "These policies mean that Wikipedians are highly vulnerable to accusations of plagiarism because we must stick closely to sources, but not too closely. Because plagiarism can occur without an intention to deceive, concerns should focus on educating the editor and cleaning up the article.. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to state that my "alternative to not plagiarising is just asking others to write stuff instead." Other editors are under no obligation to re-write anything. The easiest way to "clean up the article" is just to remove the material, with a rev-del if necessary. But policy there actually places "educating the editor" first? However, the question mark over that source seems quite pertinent. If it's not even an adequate source, there seems little point in me, or anyone else, trying to re-write it. I might benefit from the practice, or from seeing the good example, but it might still not be worth keeping in the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer educating over scolding, but that's just me. I think that there's a takeaway from the "just asking others" comment, however. There can be a perception that you need to demonstrate that you don't need to depend on others getting it right, and that perception is likely to be held against you. That's what I was trying to get at in my comment in the section below, where I talked about CCI editors liking your suggested revisions. I wasn't trying to imply that you need to get it perfect, of course. I just meant that I think editors are looking for you to show significant progress in learning how to write text that is non-copyvio, non-plagiarized, on your own. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm. How would you suggest I alter my approach with re-writes here? I was assuming it was just common courtesy to ask the removing editor for their views on my proposal. You'd prefer me to just say: "here's my best shot: take it or leave it"? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

No, not at all. You should continue to do it as you have been doing. What I'm saying is that you should try – hard – to make your rewrites as good as possible before you post them, and work towards making them better and better (with respect to copyvio compliance) over time. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Then I have no problem with that. I agree wholeheartedly. What I have a problem with is being told that I don't really care about my copyvios and that other editors just have to re-write them all for my benefit. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Well-said. WP can certainly be an unpleasant place. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

So I've now read through those policies, essays and guidelines again, and added them at the top of the page for reference. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

RIP Jean-Luc Godard

What's French for "iconoclast"?

"Art is not a reflection of reality, it is the reality of a reflection" - Jean-Luc Godard: Interviews (Conversations with Filmmakers), 1998.

"A story should have a beginning, a middle and an end, but not necessarily in that order." - Paraphrased from Cannes Film Festival, 1966.

This was one of the most extraordinary films ever made. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

RIP Eddie Butler (1957 – 2022)

A great broadcaster. To many rugby fans, he was "the voice of Wales". Often almost poetic. Even for Monty. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

T. Harri Jones

Thank you Vami IV for taking the trouble to check through some of the CCI diffs and for your recent edit here, removing something I added over 7 years ago. I must admit that I still tend to view those as basic, essential facts about Jones and I would very much appreciate any advice you could give as to how they could be included in the article without a breach of copyright. Many thanks for your help. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Done. KJP1 (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much, KJP1. And for the other swift improvements there. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@KJP1: I can tell you copied from that source because of the curly quote in Jones'. You have re-added a close paraphrase; a copyright violation. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes; I have now done this. I disagree, however, about the merits of including his grandfather's divinations. As far as I know, Jones is not notable for esoteric subjects. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:44, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Vami_IV - The curly quote comes from editing on my iPad. You could try AGF. Whether you like it or not, it is what the source says. If you think it’s a CV, go ahead and report it. KJP1 (talk) 21:48, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I apologize for the misconception, then; understand: I have usually only ever see curly quotes/apostrophes in text has been copied from another website and pasted into Wikipedia. As for what the source says, the source may say whatever it may say. It should summarized, not reproduced. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

That is what I have done. And apology accepted. KJP1 (talk) 21:56, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be a difference of opinion here. If only we had objective rules for copyvio? I don't see why "his grandfather's divinations" necessarily need to be dismissed, if (once) recorded by literaturewales.org. But that's just my opinion. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:58, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

With regards to differences of opinion, there's a line quoted in a Tom Scott YouTube video that I find inspiring, and at least somewhat relevant: "We should not adopt a bright-line standard unless we have a good one—and we do not have a good one" (Pierre N. Leval, "Toward a Fair Use Standard", Harvard Law Review, 1990). Humans are complex and so is their writing; people will disagree in good faith over what is "fair use" and what is not. The only "objective rule" is a court opinion.

Now, if someone got sued for that chunk of text, they'd probably win. It is minor. But we err on the side of caution here—our non-free content guidelines are stricter than what US law requires (not sure about UK fair dealing, but whatever)—not only to prevent lawsuits, but also to maintain quality and integrity. Problems with close paraphrasing, removed under copyright policy, are usually indicative of a content or writing problem, namely that the article or section in question is too reliant on the thoughts and details of one source. As creators of an encyclopedia our goal is to summarize sources, not to reprint often-inappropriate detail. And I would say that the "grandfather" detail is unencyclopedic, unless multiple sources repeat the claim.

TL;DR: Copyright violation or not, as writers we should not regurgitate anything but the simplest of facts. I mean simplest. "John Smith was born in 1986 to a Hungarian mother and father, who was a painter"? Don't paste, rearrange that to put the birth date elsewhere, and say "John Smith's parents are/were Hungarian." Omit the painter detail. There's much benefit to err on the side of caution, especially when learning how to write without copyright issues. That's just my opinion, and I'm not even that good of an article writer, but hopefully it gives you some perspective. Ovinus (talk) 22:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Martin - Truly sorry. I’d not intended that this become a drawn-out, painful debate. KJP1 (talk) 22:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to debate, I'd just love to see Martin unblocked soon and contributing. If there's any hint of harshness or condescension in there I apologize. Ovinus (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

A lawyer wearing his law suit. --Tryp

I appreciate your good faith comments here, Ovinus. I wonder how may dealings literaturewales.org have had with Harvard Law Review. In fact, I'd like to know how many successful copyright lawsuits have been won against Wikipedia since it started and in which jurisdictions these have happened. But perhaps this information is secret? It certainly doesn't seem to have been widely publicised. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:43, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Sued? Not many, and all the ones I know about have concerned Commons. Formal copyright takedown requests, still not that many, because Wikipedia has such severe copyright policies. Dubiously extrapolating from the 2014 report you'd expect 200 DMCA takedown requests over the English Wikipedia's life time. Informal requests, ask VRT, I don't know. Probably a lot more. Yes, Wikipedia does a lot better than Facebook, who took down 3 million pieces of content in half a year. But those guys are paid, some of them rather well. Imagine if unpaid volunteers had to remove thousands of copyright violations, and then imagine that these violations are not in irrelevant Facebook memes—removable in a click, without protest—but rather in articles viewable by the world at large, and often metastasized into other parts of an article, or even other articles. This is the burden of CCI, and why we must take copyright so seriously.

I quoted the law article not to imply that we're in severe legal jeopardy (that's somewhat of a red herring), but because I thought it made a good philosophical point. There is no mathematical formula determining whether something is a copyright violation, and we should always aim very low. Usually our writing will improve in proportion! Ovinus (talk) 14:09, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

About copyright suits against WP/WMF, I'm sure there are some that are not public, but according to List of Wikipedia controversies, there appear not to be very many. At List of Wikipedia controversies#2009, there was a successful cease-and-desist letter from the London National Portrait Gallery over Commons having images that belonged to them; these were apparently removed before it escalated to a lawsuit. And at List of Wikipedia controversies#2014, there was a failed suit against us for the ever-lovely monkey selfie. That's all I found. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:42, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, I was imagining copyvio lawsuits over the occupations of parents and the grandfather divinations of obscure Welsh poets. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll take bets that there are zero of those – so far. (Of course there can always be a first time.) --Tryptofish (talk) 18:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect sir, I am sure that there have been stranger causes for litigation. We needn't tempt fate. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:30, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I take your advice about beans. But I see it as less about “fate” and more about a financial decision by a hard-nosed copyright lawyer. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

W. H. Davies

Hi Martin! I was wondering whether you still had the book sources to W. H. Davies so that I can check. It's quite an extensive article, with several intervening edits by others, so I really don't want to stubify it. Ovinus (talk) 03:37, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ovinus. First of all, thank you again for all your work on the CCI entries. And second, thank you for actually asking, instead of applying the apparently popular dictum of "he's made a few copyvios so, in the absence of accessible sources, let's just assume everying is a copyvio." Yes, I expect I have all the book sources somewhere. I'll have a look. Sorry, but at the moment I am quite busy "in real life" (if you can still remember that... 😊) Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, of course—there's no rush at all. Sorry I didn't see the wikibreak template up there. Ovinus (talk) 18:24, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

p.s. I'm pretty sure this is not a copyvio. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Indeed! We'll see about the article as a whole. If copyright issues turn out to be too foundational, I think this might be a nice one for practicing paraphrasing and understanding copyvio (once you're feeling ready); lots of sources to draw from and summarize. Ovinus (talk) 20:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, obviously we need to turn a few pages: [66]. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I have most of the sources. We could examine those 69 diffs one at a time. Although they start over nine years ago. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:46, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Great, thanks. The issue right now is that the cited pages are rather wide for some citations. Maybe as a start you could email me page 156 of Time to Stand and Stare: A Life of W. H. Davies with Selected Poems? If you don't have that one, then maybe some pages selected between pages 9 and 20 of The Essential W. H. Davies. Ovinus (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I'll be pleased to email you that page 156 from Hooper (2004). Here are all the diffs for W. H. Davies: (+1760)(+1745)(+1537)(+1057)(+1035)(+1025)(+950)(+944)(+876)(+789)(+731)(+718)(+679)(+665)(+619)(+617)(+611)(+598)(+594)(+592)(+578)(+562)(+483)(+476)(+412)(+383)(+368)(+358)(+357)(+352)(+342)(+330)(+323)(+322)(+319)(+298)(+298)(+296)(+291)(+289)(+288)(+277)(+259)(+256)(+254)(+253)(+251)(+250)(+248)(+222)(+220)(+216)(+210)(+204)(+198)(+192)(+187)(+184)(+180)(+179)(+174)(+165)(+162)(+158)(+156)(+153)(+152)(+152)(+151)

Which one would you like to address first? Or do you want to ignore the diffs and just look at the current version? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

We can work diff by diff, or source by source. The latter makes more sense to me, but if the former would be more instructive, let me know. Ovinus (talk) 17:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

It would indeed by more instructive, thanks. And it might be possible to discount some very quickly, if they are simply adding sources or formatting, etc., like the first one. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Alright, I will strike ones which are unproblematic. Special:Diff/534201397 is first to consider—do you have access to Sitwell? Ovinus (talk) 18:07, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I have sent you a test email, as I think I'll need your email address to send you any images. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:15, 8 October 2022 (UTC) p.s. yes I have Sitwell (1943)

Thanks for your quick reply. I have sent you an image of that page 156. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:53, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

That source is paraphrased fine (content is, "Davies' health continued to decline. He died in September 1940 at the age of 69. Never a churchgoer in adult life, Davies was cremated at the Bouncer's Lane Cemetery, Cheltenham, and his remains interred there"). However, the source never explicitly says Bouncer's Lane Cemetery, or that his remains were interred there—just that he was cremated in Cheltenham. Maybe that's found on page 157?

How about Sitwell? Ovinus (talk) 19:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, Ovinus. I'll have to get back to you. Just enjoying Tony Adams' striptease on Strictly. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Errrm no, page 157 just gives more on "posthumous portraits", no mention of the Cemetery. So I'm not sure where that came from. So we'd need another source for that. Bouncer's Lane was the only crematorium for Cheltenham in 1940 and I think it still is. Might be safer to take the name out, if a source can't be found. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm guessing you'd like images of pages xxi–xxviii of Sitwell (1943). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Ye, that would be desirable. Ovinus (talk) 20:50, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

My 1963 edition (with a Preface by Daniel George) has Sitwell's Introduction on pages xxvii-xxxiv, copies of which I have now sent. But I don't think it was revised from the 1943 edition. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Appears to be paraphrased fine! The next one is quite hard because it's a whole biography, W. H. Davies – A Critical Biography. Stanford library actually has it, but I won't be able to go there any time soon. My intuition, based on the article/source size ratio, is that most of it's fine, but if you would be willing to send the page(s) corresponding to Fearing contempt from fellow tramps, he often feigned ... all of the printed sheets, I can take a look at those. Ovinus (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, feel free to add ticks and crosses. Yes, of course, I'll try and send you those. Just to let you know, I'm going away today, for about a week, where I'll have very limited internet access. Thank you so much again, Ovinus, for taking the time to help with this. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC) p.s. I don't think this is copyvio...

Enjoy your trip! Ovinus (talk) 22:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

With regards to Ms. Vinus, she is well. This paragraph is paraphrased excellently. I'm pleasantly surprised, Martin! Let's do two more, the pages corresponding to In 1907, the manuscript of The Autobiography of a Super-Tramp ... London publisher Fifield and to By this time Davies had a library of some 50 books ... without success. I'd also appreciate if you could skim through the corresponding parts (chronologically speaking) of the introduction and send me pages which contain this information (if they exist).

There is inappropriate copying from the BBC that I found. [67] says:

The Friends of Glendower have arranged a series of lectures, exhibitions, walks and other events are being held in Nailsworth and Stroud from 13 to 26 September to mark the 70th anniversary of the poet's death.

And the article said,

In 2010, the Friends of Glendower arranged lectures, exhibitions, walks and other events in Nailsworth and Stroud on 13–26 September, to mark the 70th anniversary of the poet's death.

Note how the structure, word choice, and level of detail is very similar; only the tense is changed. You can try paraphrasing that as practice, if you like. Cheers. Ovinus (talk) 20:30, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. Yes, the tense had to change as it was, when I added it, the previous year (now 12 years ago). How about:

In September 2010, to commemorate the 70 years since of Davies' death, the Friends of Glendower arranged a series of events, including walks, exhibitions and lectures, in Stroud and Nailsworth.

I'll try and send the pages for those two passages. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC) p.s. I'm reluctant to add ticks and crosses here. And of course, I'm not able to do that at the CCI page. So I'd be grateful if you could.

Don't worry, I'll cross out everything at the CCI once we're through. It's so far going better than I anticipated. As to your paraphrase, it's a reasonable start, but it's really just switching up the order of everything. We should also consider word choice and level of detail. For example, I might have done something like: In September 2010, the 70th anniversary of Davies's death, the Friends of Glendower hosted a commemoration in Nailsworth and Stroud. In this case I omitted the "lectures, exhibitions, walks" detail, and even though "70th anniversary of Davies's death" is in the original, there's not really a great way to rephrase it. YMMV. Also, pinging Tryptofish if they'd like to join. Ovinus (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm still watching here, if there are any questions for me. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:36, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Ovinus. I guess crossing out is ok. I had assumed that ticks and crosses were in some way more conclusive (although have also seen a few question marks over at CCI) and more indicative of some kind of progress. Feel free to provide Earwig scores. Yes, I also don't really see a problem with the phrase "70th anniversary of Davies's death". That looks to me like the sort of descriptive declarative clause that can't be copyrightable. I just felt compelled to try and use as few of the same words from the original sentence as possible, so that those serried ranks of BBC lawyers weren't rushing to grab their gold-plated quill pens yet again... Your suggested re-write is very inventive. But did the Friends of Glendower actually "host" anything - I thought they had just arranged those events? So Trypto, a question for you is this: could you please re-write the original sentence for us here so that it (a) avoids any possible claim of copyright violation but also (b) has the same meaning? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:45, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

OK, here is a possible rewrite, which I'm basing only on what I see here in this discussion, without looking at the page or the source:

In September 2010, the Friends of Glendower celebrated the 70th anniversary of Davies' death. They held a variety of events, including lectures, in Nailsworth and Stroud.

--Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd probably have no qualms about adding that. But you'd need to look at the source, to know you were not violating copyright. Let's see what Ovinus thinks. Perhaps someone cab do a Earwig on it. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:22, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

It's true that I didn't look at the source, but I went by what Ovinus quoted from the source. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, that's also very inventive. Perhaps now you can peek at the actual source and see how well or badly you did? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Unless Ovinus misquoted it, I don't understand why you would want me to do that? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:34, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see. His quote is 100% accurate. So, you're right, you don't need to. I was trying to be too true to real life. If we asked a series of 10 random editors if your version avoided copyright, we might get a range of opinions. Unlike my original, of course, which would no doubt get 10 thumbs down. Would we ever get a definitive answer? Not sure. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:40, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

The way I see it, there can always be a gray area in which editors would truly disagree over whether material has or has not been changed enough to avoid a copyright infringement. But the goal when editing is to always go beyond that gray area, to the point where most reasonable editors would agree that there is no problem. That's what I sought to do. As you can see, I split it up into two sentences, and I intentionally left some information out when I wrote "a variety of events, including lectures". Thus, I omitted the information that there were also exhibitions and walks, and I decided that omitting that would not matter. I recommend getting into the mindset that a sufficient rewrite will remove the risk of a copyright problem, even if it results in not quite capturing every last detail of the source. Once you get to where you can comfortably feel like there is a big enough difference between the source and the rewrite, then you can get comfortable with not worrying that random editors will act unpredictably. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Tryptofish hits the nail on the head.

Martin, have a good wiki-break, and please be of good cheer. --Tryp

That seems perfectly reasonable, although I don't quite know how one is to judge the relative merits of lectures, exhibitions and walks. I suppose the fewer facts there are, the less there is to disagree over. Let's see what Ovinus thinks. Perhaps one of you will feel comfortable enough to restore someone's version, or even a further hybrid, to the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Tryptofish hits the nail on the head as usual. There is a gray area (a fairly large one at that), but we should always strive to go beyond that area. If that means omitting some detail, so be it. With regards to Earwig: The tool is only a heuristic. A negative finding on Earwig does not preclude a copyright issue, nor does a positive finding imply an issue. (I've been thinking about more robust ways to detect close paraphrasing, particularly those instances obfuscated by word substitution, but natural language processing is not my area of expertise.)

Anyway, I'll check the pages you emailed me in the next couple of days. Also, if you're interested, and able to explain your understanding of copyright satisfactorily, I would advocate for a partial unblock. If you'd be interested, probably try to explain it to me and Trypto first. Both understanding and wording are key; for better or worse, the community isn't likely to take kindly to an explanation that isn't dead serious. Ovinus (talk) 18:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks Ovinus. By all means re-add what you consider the best version at W. H. Davies. As I said previously, I was hoping to get an opportunity to demonstrate an understanding of copyright by re-writing material that was unsatisfactory. But in most cases this is not possible as it gets rev-del'ed. I'm also unsure what a partial unblock might entail. I assume that would need to be agreed that with the blocking admin, Diannaa. As regards Earwig, I'm well aware of its limitations, but I had always assumed it was a way of moving beyond only subjective opinion. I only discovered it long after making many of the problematic CCI edits. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:44, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

With regards to pasting copyrighted content: there are options. One is to keep the quotes short; a paragraph of quoted content on talk pages, under discussion, is common practice (and for avoidance of all doubt, I can add the material and take the blame if someone calls foul). Another is to practise with public domain or freely licensed content, in which case there is no limit to our quoting. Another is to work through email, as we have been. Finally, we can work with sources that are freely available online, and refer to them as necessary. Ovinus (talk) 02:25, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. That all sounds perfectly practical. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Not on main page

As with most events in the illegal war waged by the "Bloodthirsty Scum", this story won't appear on the main page, as the Russian invasion of Ukraine is just "Ongoing": Russian attack kills 25 in civilian convoy in Ukraine. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:08, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

October music

October songs

Today is Erntedank in Germany, thanksgiving, and we celebrated our village's 650th anniversary, and had the dress rehearsal for Verdi's Requiem with an interesting band of marimba, piano, horn, bass, timpani and drum, - concert tomorrow, our national holiday. Seeing a pic I took on the Main page was also a nice harvest. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda. What an amazing picture that is. Verdi's Dies irae must be one of the most dramatic pieces ever written for an orchestra. It's just astounding. Here's a snippet of Claudio Abbado, with the Berlin Philharmonic, from 2002. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:30, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

DYK means that you take a pic on 7 July, and nominate it, and it's not taken, and you try again, and by some miracle it gets to the Main page in October. Our marimba player handled the big drum which was quite close to my position, each hit a physical sensation. Amazing that Verdi invented the music for Dies irae already as part of his first approach, Libera me, which now comes last. - Did you see our soprano? Mezzo to follow tomorrow. When they sang about Michael the lightbearer I remembered you wishing me Michaelmas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, remarkable invention. Here's Talia in Le nozze di Figaro (not sure exactly where or when that was!) Martinevans123 (talk) 20:50, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I saw that, and there's also Rejoice! from Messiah, same setting with piano, - it says 11 years ago, done by her then agency. I found nothing recent. The way she lets these high Bs float softly is just amazing. The highlight of the concert (for me, and actually even better in the dress rehearsal) was she and the mezzo singing Agnus Dei, an octave apart and nothing else. What would you suggest for a DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Apologies. I'd probably suggest: Did you know... ... that Vulfpeck's Cory Wong has the funkiest rhythm guitar outta Poughkeepsie! Still searchin' for sources, alas. "Boogie On Reggae Gerda"!! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:14, 5 October 2022 (UTC) p.s. totes funkalicious

Looking back on when I was a little Wiki headed boy, Then my only worry was for Talk page, what would be my toy?: [68] Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 5 October 2022 (UTC) (.... or yes, something about Talia Or would be very good!)

Came just to mention (late, sorry) that another church with your name was on the Main page, pictured. - Sure there will be something about the soprano, just what, that is the question. Look at Markus Becker (pianist), and you'll understand why I ask. (The noms are on the talk.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:26, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Not sure what stands out. ... she recorded a setting of Lermontov's "Three Palms" for soprano and string quartet with "heartfelt passion"?? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

They will tell me that the poem is not known by the general reader. The Verdi Requiem is, but the one and only review dealt with politics for most of the time, and gave her and the mezzo together two lines (the first actually about all four soloists), of positive but rather plain description. Frau Fluth perhaps. Verdi's Libera me is quite a scene. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

latest pics, enjoy --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

new day, another pictured DYK (but not pictured by me this time): look at power work tensions (if you translate) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:46, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda. Looks like a church to electricity! Martinevans123 (talk) 09:28, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

agree, interior the same --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:33, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

today's DYK: two facts from the two concert of this years Rheingau Musik Festival I liked best, both a cappella singing, and you helped with one, remember? If you follow the songs, you see a circus, where I performed singing, and in the end the whole tent joined for Dona nobis pacem. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:28, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the links, Gerda. UK has it's own flying circus to enthral us, just at the moment. Meanwhile.... things are rather quiet here... "He's as dead as a nail in the lamp room floor." etc., etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:44, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, as ever, for your Hand of Kindness... I think I'll just set it all down in a tear-stained letter.

moar, and how about using the green image of her for more hope? - who shall separate us --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the links Gerda. Yes I remember that piece. Here's Black Cat Moan from Don Nix. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

spa wellness: last day of BWV 56, and two great musicians who died --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the links, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

We talked about you and yt on GRuban's page (under the tree, or look for "courage"). I forgot when you had trouble for hosting videos not licensed enough, - do you remember, or should we better forget? You will enjoy Pisarenko's licensed or not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

That's a very interesting discussion. The advice at Commons seems very clear. My recollection is that the Admin concerned was very angry and annoyed (or it may have been annoyed and angry, I'm not sure) with me for pasting links to YouTube videos, that might not have have been properly licenced by the originator, at my Talk page, when most other Admins did not seem to be very bothered at all. I moderated the visibility of the links by hiding them in a hatted box. I eventually relented by removing all those I considered doubtful. I think I was blocked by that Admin for a wholly separate supposed copyright infringement, which included translated material, and which had originally been created by another blocked editor. A least I'm now much more careful about the YT links that I add to article mainspace. But the whole episode was quite a waste of time and better off forgotten. Thanks for reminding me. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:15, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

forget it then ;) - today a woman in red, cellist Ella van Poucke, with a video in the article --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:38, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, Haydn - how lovely that is, and with Orchestre Royal de Chambre de Wallonie and Vahan Mardirossian. Thanks so much. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

... followed by the new hall where she played - I always like to see my pics on the Main page, - then the mezzo of our Verdi concert, finally don't miss Hannah Pick-Goslar, - met a cat today, pictured --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

leaving the month with reformation and a cat treat --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Great picture, Gerda. Great article. Ms Lennox has a special Halloween message. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Look who's 70! ah bless...

Putin and Lukashenko discuss strategy, from David Firth. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

John Dalton

Would anyone kindly revert this edit? And possibly add a note to that editor's Talk page? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:08, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done MadGuy7023 (talk) 11:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much, MadGuy7023. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:16, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

RIP Robert Gordon

Robert Gordon (March 29, 1947 – October 18, 2022) - American neo-rockabilly singer. Here with Link Wray from Fresh Fish Special (1978): [69] Martinevans123 (talk) 17:47, 18 October 2022 (UTC) (backing vocals – the Jordanaires; bass – Rob Stoner; drums – Howie Wyeth)

A great talent. A great performing partner with the incomparable Chris Spedding. But to lighten the mood... Stewart Lee has some political nostalgia for us.... Martinevans123 (talk) 18:56, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling

I see that an IP editor has removed the video clip for "Frog and Peach" here, with the summary "This video isn't available any more". While it's true that the original video has gone, there is a possible replacement here from the Secret Policeman channel. I believe this is not in breach of copyright, so somebody might like to add it. There's also a book source here. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Martin, you probably shouldn't be using your talk page to ask other editors to make mainspace edits that are unrelated to the CCI. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Would you like me to strike out this suggestion or just delete it wholesale? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I guess you could strike it, but that's not a big deal. Mostly, just don't continue to do it, because it's technically not supposed to be done. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

You could always suggest to the blocking editor that my TPA is removed. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. I really hate sounding like a pest. Preventing the risk of TPA loss is what I was trying to do. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

You poor thing. Ever the optimist. What a truly grim place this is. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC) a shame that Grammy winner Oskar Franzén, who is the real star that video, hardly gets a mention. (guitar – Martin Renck; keyboards – Mats Karlsson; percussion – Oskar Franzén; programming – Jonas von der Burg; flute – David Wilczewski)

We have an opening at the top

We thought your résumé looked promising. Please schedule an interview at your earliest convenience at No 10. Signed, Charles Rex. Softlavender (talk) 05:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks so much for leafing through my CV. Unfortunately it looks like the position is already taken. Boris Still-not-good-enough (talk) 08:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Cwmyoy

Re: this addition (which has remained unchallenged and unchanged for nearly 14 years), the source text (Hando (1958) p.119) is this:

The chancel of Cwmyoy church is a remarkable example of a "weeping chancel". In many of our churches the axis of the chancel is out of line with the axis of the nave, for the nave represents our Lord's body and the deflected chancel His head fallen sideways in death.

At Cwmyoy not only the axis but the whole chancel slews sideways and it it seems that the builders planned it thus, for if the slant had been due to the landside it should have followed the slant of the tower.

So I would propose a re-write, similar to the text at St Martin's Church, Cwmyoy, as follows:

The Monmouthshire writer and artist Fred Hando calls it "the Church below the Landslide" and describes the church chancel as an example of a "weeping chancel", where the non-alignment of the nave and chancel axes was deliberate and was intended to represent the body of Christ in death, the nave standing for the body and the chancel standing for the head, fallen to the right.

Any comments or further suggestions? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh, this is an interesting one. Never heard of it before. Must go and have a look some time. Deb (talk) 13:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Not only does KJP1 write wonderful original prose, but he also takes great photos, like this one. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC) I'm not sure if the estate of the late Fred Hando, and/or R. H. Johns Ltd., Stationers, Printers & Account Book Manufacturers of Newport, are in any position to mount a legal battle, to recover damages from WMF for violation of copyright, but it's your duty to protect Wikipedia by adjusting those three sentences, if you can! Thanks.

You’re too kind. The church rarely looked more crooked! KJP1 (talk) 15:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Here's some Crooked Hip for you from Fusion Funk Foundation. Feel the Bass, dude! (see also Lo Greco Bros) Martinevans123 (talk) 19:59, 22 October 2022 (UTC) [70]

Death of Harry Dunn

Hello Cameron Dewe, I saw your ping at the Talk page. Sorry I am unable to post at that page at present. Yes, some road traffic deaths may be considered by society as accidental deaths, rather than being due to negligence or recklessness. But is this case Sacoolas has admitted she was criminally negligent. You claim that "The charge that Mrs Sacoolas plead guilty to was Dangerous driving causing Death." But that is not the case. The article clearly says:

"On the 20 October 2022 the Old Bailey heard and accepted Sacoolas plea of guilty (via video link) to the charge of causing the death of Harry Dunn by careless driving. (She had pleaded not guilty to the more serious offence of causing death by dangerous driving."

I believe the lesser charge of causing death by careless driving should be pipe-linked to Road Safety Act 2006. I would also suggest that the lead section should make it clear that Sacoolas' guilty plea was made (via video link) at Old Bailey (but I have already been reprimanded for making requests unrelated to my current CCI, so please just take these as observations). Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, spoke on Woman's Hour yesterday and is due to be on Broadcasting House, with Paddy O'Connell, tomorrow morning. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

My argument is that society considers deaths resulting from driving offences to be "accidental". Even though there might be a degree of negligence involved in the driving, Police did not lay charges of murder or manslaughter, only that of "causing death". How Wikipedia names an article seems to turn on the meaning of the word "Homicide", which is open to interpretation in law. English traffic law uses the term "causing death", suggesting that the law considers any road traffic death was more probably accidental than due the criminal recklessness or negligence of the driver. Although Sacoolas has plead guilty to causing Dunn's death, the wording of the law, and any charges, precludes saying she "killed" him. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd suggest that term "Homicide" is used differently on each of the Atlantic. But your argument seems perfectly fair: Sacoolas did not mean to kill Dunn, but she was the agent that brought about his death. Accidents generally have multiple contributory causes, not just a singe cause, and the term "killing" suggests an intentional purpose that does not usually apply in accidental deaths. Dunn's parents have issued a statement to say they are travelling to the US today to thank the American people and media personally. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:58, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

p.s. I notice that you have now added at the Talk page "Police still had the option of laying murder or manslaughter charges, which they didn't do." While theoretically that might have been possible, it's quite rare to bring those charges under the law of England and Wales. The CPS would almost certainly have advised against either of those in this case. There's a guide here. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:22, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Church of St Mary Magdalene, Newark-on-Trent

Hello Diannaa. Thank you for your continued work at the CCI. I noticed that you removed the piped link to Smith of Derby here with the edit summary "remove copyright content copied from https://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/newark-st-mary/hclock.php". As can be seen at the Smith article, the name Smith of Derby Group was adopted only in 1985, whereas the work at St Mary's was completed in 1971. So I had assumed the piped link was more accurate. What do you think? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:03, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That sounds like a good edit. I will change it back. Thanks for the suggestion. — Diannaa (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, Diannaa. As for the rest of that edit, yes I pretty much copied it, as I could not see any way of re-phrasing those technicalities. Perhaps you have some suggestions? I realise you are under no obligation to do so. But I'd really appreciate your ideas on that sentence. Thank you. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

How would you describe the sequence of events to a friend, if you were telling the story in person? You would be unlikely to speak in the stilted manner of the prose that was copied. I suggest that you read the source, and then put the content into your own words in plain direct English (without looking at the source documents). It helps to have multiple sources on which to draw. I see here that the Saxon bldg of Leofric's time was the first on the site, and the second was built after the Norman invasion. The crypt and four piers are all that remain of the Norman bldg. Much of what is still present on the site dates from 1220 and later. — Diannaa (talk) 22:55, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

"It has three 7-foot (2.1 m) diameter and one 9-foot (2.7 m) diameter roman gilded skeleton dials and a mechanism by Joyce of Whitchurch, dated 1898. It sounds Westminster Quarters. It was converted to electrical power, in 1971, by Smith of Derby, with direct drive on chime and strike and autowind on the going train." I didn't see much a story there, sorry. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:37, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

It appears we are talking about two different edits. I was talking about this edit. For the edit about the clock, I would simply omit the less important details, like I did here. — Diannaa (talk) 11:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it does. I provided the link in the opening paragraph above? I'd be happy to leave out "less important details". But with the words included, is that copyvio? I can't see any way of re-wording those details about the clock. It seems you can't either. Perhaps we could also discuss your second edit, with the summary "remove some presumptively; see Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20220720"? I'd be happy to copy here the original text from the source (Pask, 1995). Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:18, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

With the words included, it's copyvio in my opinion. That's why I took it out! You've been telling me for 7 years that if you can't figure out a way to re-word something that means it's okay for you to copypaste it in. That is incorrect. Trivial detail about the type of gilding on the arms of the clock is not important information to include. Technical specifications about the conversion to electric power are not important to include either. Leave it out.

Regarding the content I removed presumptively, I've already given my thoughts about how to re-word it in my previous post. The Saxon bldg of Leofric's time was the first on the site, and the second was built after the Norman invasion. The crypt and four piers are all that remain of the Norman bldg. Much of what is still present on the site dates from 1220 and later. — Diannaa (talk) 12:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I may have made that suggestion before, but I don't think I've been "telling you for 7 years." Those details might not be trivial to many readers. Still, I'm perfectly happy to leave out such technicalities. Thank you for the very clear advice. With regard to your presumptive copyvio removal, I'm surprised you don't want to see the original source text. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I haven't counted years, but I'm pretty sure Diannaa meant for a long time prior to the most recent CCI. I agree entirely with her advice, and I'd like to point to what we recently discussed about #W. H. Davies for how I approached leaving out trivial details and avoiding copyvio. If you frequently find that details that seem to you to be important to readers are putting you at odds with copyvio expectations, then I would suggest that you just adjust your perceptions of what is indispensable to include. (After all, other editors have been leaving such things out, and the wiki-sky hasn't fallen.) It also has a good example of where Ovinus posted a brief quote from the source material in a permissible way for our purposes here, and that would be a good thing for you to do preemptively when you want other editors to see the original source text, although doing that by email would of course be preferable. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I was agreeing with Diannaa? I had thought looking at an actual example, before any text had been rev-del'ed, might have been instructive. For me at least. Perhaps you think the risk to the project is too great to reproduce here one paragraph (44 words) from Brenda Pask's leaflet. I'm not sure how a brief quote would establish if a presumptive removal was justified. But editors with indefinite blocks don't get to call the shots, do they. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:05, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, IAR doesn't apply with regards to copyvio. As copyright is forbidden by real laws rather than some policy, Wikipedia cannot have any copyright-infringing clauses in its pages, lest Wikipedia's very existence becomes illegal. Wikipedia thus takes a nigh-zero tolerance policy regarding copyvios (and why this happened). As such, while it is exceedingly unlikely that Wikipedia gets taken to court for "one paragraph from Brenda Pask's leaflet", it would still be better to omit the copyvio section entirely rather than bettering the article or benefitting the reader with the info from the source.

If ever you are in doubt about whether something is a copyvio or not, it's generally always better to err on the side of caution and exclude the infringing clauses. There are guides and examples on and off Wikipedia that can help you with paraphrasing and synthesizing. And if paraphrasing seems too difficult for some sources, one might use quotations marks, add an external link, or ask for help via the Teahouse it's not just for newbies like me; they're pretty good at helping experienced editors too or by pinging Tryptofish (I think he offered to mentor you? May be misremembering). 24.207.44.76 (talk) 22:02, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Delta IP24 for your helpful advice. You seem remarkably well informed for "a newbie". Your advice is very similar to that already kindly offered by Trytpofish, valereee, Levivich, Girth Summit, Moneytrees, Boing! said Zebedee, Ovinus, Yngvadottir, KJP1 and Diannaa (and any others I have missed here). I have agreed with them all, so I agree with you. "Unfortunately"?? Yes, I am well aware that copyright is forbidden by real laws, thanks, and I'd never advocate IAR with regard to copyright. Here are the 44 words that comprise Pask's second paragraph, on page 2 of her booklet (photographic copies available on request):

"The present church is actually the third on this site. Of the Saxon church which stood in the manor of the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva, nothing remains. They had given Newark as endowment to the monks of Stow (by Lincoln)".

References

I'm not sure I would want to just add quotation marks to that passage. Perhaps as Dianna has presumed, it is prose with a "stilted manner", which I have copied. If you compare it with my version, you can seen how poor a job I did of rewriting it. But I am left wondering how I would "describe the sequence of events to a friend, if I were telling the story in person?" Not much of a story, is it. These words still seem to me to be describing basic historical facts, in a chronological sequence. Who owns these facts? These facts can only be written in a finite number of different ways in English. Once all these ways have been used up, in copyrighted published works, only those authors or publishers own can own them? Can Wikipedia be sued only by the author I have attributed? Apologies for all this meandering about semiotics and meaning; it won't help my cause, of course. But I still ponder, I'm afraid. I'd be very happy indeed if you could suggest a way of rewriting those 44 words, into a version free of copyright concerns. I'd see it as "mentoring". Or maybe I have to get someone to ask for me at the Teahouse? Thank you. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:04, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

My suggested version would be something like:

Two churches had been built previously at the same location. One was built by the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva, in the Saxon style.

I wrote that while being sufficiently confused by the stilted writing that I'm not sure I got it factually correct. I didn't particularly try to tell it like a story to a friend. I've omitted blue-linking. I'm taking the position that "the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva," is not a copyvio. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

About my opinion that "the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva," is not a copyvio in this context, I should get a second opinion on that, so I'm pinging Diannaa. Do you think my reasoning is correct in saying that? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

That is correct, Tryptofish. People's names and hereditary titles are not copyright. Neither are names of schools or places or job titles. Martinevans123, you must not have noticed that I already described the sequence of events in my own words when I said "the Saxon bldg of Leofric's time was the first on the site, and the second was built after the Norman invasion. The crypt and four piers are all that remain of the Norman bldg. Much of what is still present on the site dates from 1220 and later." This sample prose needs a little work but it's the way I would write it. I didn't really understand the sequence of events until I read the second source (this one). People who live in places other than the UK won't know when was Saxon times or which came first, Norman times or Saxon period or Gothic construction so it's best to identify them by years if you can. Or at least list them chronologically. — Diannaa (talk) 23:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for clarifying that, Diannaa. I would certainly agree with you that using multiple sources is better than using just one. I did notice that you described the sequence of events in your own words, but I was trying to determine how I could have avoided the copyright violation of that one single paragraph that you have removed. Your suggestion seems to be "The Saxon building of Leofric's time was the first on the site". I had thought my piped links to Saxon, Earl of Mercia and Lady Godiva would help the unfamiliar reader. But maybe the first of those is WP:OR? I included Godiva as she is quite a well-known person. But I guess you might think she is just "unnecessary detail", even if her name is not copyright. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:55, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, it was just a rough outline of the sequence of events, and was not intended to be the version that was used in the article, since it's missing details, wikilinks, dates, names, etc. If you could work on how you would modify it to add in the missing details, make decisions on which wikilinks to include and which details to include and how you would word the subsequent finished text, that would be helpful. — Diannaa (talk) 12:17, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I see, thanks. It seems that we all agree that what is already there, in the second paragraph, based on the NHLE listing, is perfectly adequate. I think I'd use all those wikilinks again, unless anyone could suggest better ones. Tryptofish has already suggested a possible version above and you don't seem to object to it. Perhaps IP24 would also like a say. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Trypto. I hope IP24 didn't mind you jumping in there too much. I think it was an actual Saxon church. not just in the Saxon style? That's why I pipe linked to Anglo-Saxon architecture. I had thought the endowment of the manor to the monks gave some historical context. But perhaps you think that's just unnecessary detail? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:30, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

About Saxon and about endowment, the way I wrote it is simply because I really don't understand what the source is saying. As for leaving out the endowment material, that was mostly because I didn't understand it and figured that it would be best to not attempt to capture it. A revision of what I wrote could be:

Two churches had been built previously at the same location. A Saxon church was endowed to the monks by the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva.

I still don't know whether that gets the substance of it right, but I think it works from the perspective of copyvio compliance. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I see. This source from british-history.ac.uk says this:

"This Noble Manor of Newerk was by the famous Leofric Earl of Mercia, and his most pious Lady Godiva, given with Flatburch in this County, (now Fledborough) to the Monastery of Stow near Lincolne, in the time of King Edward the Confessor, who with his Queen and Nobles was present at, (fn. 1) and consenting to the Agreement made between the said Earl and Countess, and the Bishop Wulwi, that they should have Priests there, and altogether the same Service which was in St. Paul's at London, and that the Lands they should give, should be for the Food and Rayment of the Brethren (or Friars) there."

So I assume Leofric and Godiva endowed the land at Newark, or at least it's taxes, to the monks, on which they could "have Priests there". Does this mean that the church was already established there? I suspect it does. But there seems to be some dispute, amongst commentators, as to whether Godiva actually held the manor of Newark in her own name. e.g. here:

"Godiva owned land in Ansty... Her largest holding was in Newark, Nottinghamshire. It is believed that she married twice ... In what is believed to be her second marriage, she married one of the most powerful men in the country, Leofric, Earl of Mercia and Lord of Coventry."

and in the source that Diannaa has linked to:

"In the eleventh century Lady Godiva had given the income of her manor of Newark to Stow monastery near Lincoln. After the Norman Conquest the endowment with the advowson of the church passed to the Bishop of Lincoln and in the twelfth century Robert de Chesney, Bishop of Lincoln, gave the church to the Gilbertine priory of St Katherine outside Lincoln and the latter retained control until the Reformation, providing vicars from among their own brethren. Although subject to the Bishop of Lincoln as Lord of the Manor, Newark with the rest of Nottinghamshire lay in the diocese of York and this resulted in much tension as both ecclesiastical overlords and the Prior of St Katherine’s attempted to impose their own wills on the town and church. Sometimes this resulted in violence, as in 1426, when a mob incited by representatives of the Archbishop of York, made a riot in the church, assaulting the vicar, Thomas Marshe.

"The chief benefactors of the church in mediaeval times were the wealthy wool and cloth merchants based in Newark. Not only did they provide much of the fabric and furnishings, they, together with the religious guilds also established about twenty chantries, of which only two chapels remain - the Meryng and Markham chapels to the north and south of the High Altar."

Of course none of this is mentioned by Pask. But I'm not sure how much additional detail is needed. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm going to claim a healthy admixture of ignorance and stupidity with respect to the content and sourcing matters. I think it's best if I focus here on wording and avoiding copyvio. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:22, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

So that makes two of us (although I would settle for just ignorance in this case). Not ideal when attempting a re-write to avoid copyvio, as the meaning may be subtly and unwittingly changed. When Pask says "they had given Newark", does she mean the manor, or the church, the income, or perhaps all three? That british-history.ac.uk source clearly says the manor, which must have included the church. I'm also assuming that the church existed before Godiva came along for her second marriage (neither Lady Godiva nor Leofric, Earl of Mercia tell us which year that was). I'm assuming that the exact year of the first church's construction is not known. But I see that the Leofric article says:

"In the 1050s Leofric and Godiva appear jointly as benefactors in a document granting land to the monastery of St Mary, Worcester, and the endowment of the minster at Stow St Mary, Lincolnshire."

So one might get away with adding "sometime in the 1050s"? However, I am tempted to add the british-history.ac.uk source and just change and expand to:

"Two churches had been built previously at the same location. The manor of Newark, with its Saxon church, was endowed to the monks of the Minster at Stow, Lincolnshire, by Leofric, Earl of Mercia and his wife Lady Godiva."

What do you think? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think that works very well, all around. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:29, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Good. If there are no objections, perhaps someone could add it. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

References

post-script: I see that Codby67 has correctly removed Walter Blount (soldier) as being buried at St Mary Magdalene. As this source says, he was buried at Church of St Mary de Castro, Leicester. I'd suggest his article could be clarified with a link; perhaps also the Church of St Mary de Castro article. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Merger discussion for Murder of Sarah Payne

An article that you have been involved in editing—Murder of Sarah Payne—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. GoldenBootWizard276 (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

GoldenBootWizard276, thanks for the prompt. I'd have no objection to a merge. There is no separate article for Wayne Couzens, Jeffrey Gafoor etc, etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:34, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

RIP Jerry Lee

"Great Balls Of Fire!" (1957). Oooooh.... (still) feels (so) good! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:26, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

"Great Balls of Fire": ... recorded in the Sun Studio in Memphis, Tennessee, on October 8, 1957, using three personnel: Lewis (piano/vocals), Sidney Stokes (bass), and a session drummer, Larry Linn, instead of the usual Sun backups Jimmy Van Eaton (drums) and Roland Janes (guitar)."

I guess we can thank producer Sam Phillips for that exact touch of vocal echo, which kind of makes it. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:53, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Strictly... LaVern!

"Shooo-eee, you hurt me like a bee!" (1969, Atlantic: 45-2077) Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

rateyourmusic.com here says: "Bumble Bee recorded in New York on August 17 1960 by LaVern Baker (vocals) accompanied by Jesse Stone's Orchestra comprising Haywood Henry (flute and baritone saxophone); Al Sears (tenor saxophone); Bert Keyes (piano); Ernie Hayes (organ); Mickey Baker and Carl Lynch (guitar); Abie Baker (bass); Shep Shepherd (drums); Ed Barnes, Malcolm Dodds, Winfield Scott, Nat Smith (backing vocals); Jesse Stone arranging and conducting the performance." (presumably Shepherd vibes)

November music

November songs

celebrating GW60 or: the birthday of my first subject -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Happy birthday, Graham! Here's his Toccatina Precipitando, Op. 24 (1999). Reminds me of Stackridge. It seems my own wiki pursuit has gone irretrievably Down the Drain. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

there's happiness beyond Wikipedia - just returned from vital concert of OREYA - they came with roughly a third of their normal size, but what spirit! They promised to send a program - spoken announcements only in the cold church, but the music heated us. Now off to Graham's! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:17, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

That's very true. Apologies for the ever lengthening Talk page. I'm not permitted to edit my User page, or my Sandbox or to archive anything. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

thank you - 3 concerts in 3 days can now be found together: a Ukrainian chamber choir, my cellist and composer friend's 60th birthday music (with a world premiere and that overview about his career), and Bach's ultimate statement about life and death --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:13, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

vacation pics --Gerda Arendt (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanksgiving in the U.S. - Bach said it in music for peace --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda. Yes, he certainly did. Here's Sietze de Vries bashing it out in 2015. Was it here maybe? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. When we performed it in St. Martin, the organist noticed Gabriel Dessauer in the audience, and also bashed it out ;) - It was quite an audience, with the American friends I just saw also visiting --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Opera and Advent choral music on my talk, many pics of the singing --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:40, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

That tasty Autumn Cabinet menu in full...

Entrées:

Crudités

Mains:

Rich Pickings Pie, with sumak, on a bed of freshly wilted 60p lettuce

Gove in the Hole

NHS Hunters' Chicken

--- all served with Dom Kohlrabi

Desserts:

Leaky Suzie Sticky Pudding

Scones with clever jams

To finish:

Schnapps

Coffee

I'm not much of a fan of British cuisine, but that menu looks well-crafted, so congrats on that. Here in the colonies, we seem to have narrowly escaped what could have been some exceedingly unpalatable fare. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmm... Freshly fried beggarticks, with Florida gammon... "Let's make American gravy again"!! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:17, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Savile drama "pushed back until 2024"

According to the Daily Mail (yes I know 🤮) it won't be shown until 2024, although it was originally planned for this year having completed shooting in January.[71] I've never been convinced that Alan Partridge in a blonde wig was a good idea, and it may be one of those Alan Smithee films that the BBC now wishes it hadn't bothered to make in the first place. ♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:02, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

A-ha!! Coogan seems to have got the tracksuit just right, but missing a few medalions. Written by this guy? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

November 2022

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abuse of editing privileges. In addition, your ability to edit your talk page has also been revoked.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then submit a request to the Unblock Ticket Request System.  Cabayi (talk) 11:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

In the 4 months since your account was blocked it has accumulated 150k of chit-chat and has moved into suggesting edits (aka WP:PROXYING) at #Merger discussion for Murder of Sarah Payne, #Church of St Mary Magdalene, Newark-on-Trent, #Death of Harry Dunn, #Cwmyoy... You were warned about it at #Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling, apparently to no effect. Talk page access is left for blocked users to request an unblock. As that is obviously not happening, I've revoked your WP:TPA. Cabayi (talk) 11:26, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I've got an email from Martin, essentially saying (or at least implying) that he's quit Wikipedia, except to ask Cabayi if he sought consensus to do this first? As I found out when my disabling of Athaenara's talk was challenged and reversed, "Talk page access is left for blocked users to request an unblock." is not what the policy says, which is actually, "Editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page, or when the user has engaged in serious threats, accusations, or attempts at outing that must be prevented from re-occurring." Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:24, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Just an observation but I don't see where Martin asked for anyone to edit for him (proxying). He may have given his opinion about things written on his talk page by others but it can easily be ignored. I see why Tryp warned Martin and I would most definitely caution Martin against pushing the boundaries of what is permissible. As far as asking for an unblock, we all know that would be ridiculous at this point as he has been specifically instructed not to ask for an unblock until the copyright issues have all been addressed. This is common knowledge of what is acceptable in these cases. I think Ritchie has accurately pointed out policy wording. Regardless of how much we may disagree with Martin's actions from the copyright issues to the way he responded on this talk page to queries by others, procedurally he has done nothing wrong and is not creating a disruption. --ARoseWolf 19:20, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:PROXYING prohibits other editors from editing on behalf of a banned/blocked editor. It doesn't prohibit the banned/blocked editor from making the suggestions. It's the wrong link. Anyway, of what benefit to WP is removing his talk page access? In the threads highlighted by Cabayi, his suggestions were productive for the encyclopedia, often in discussion with admins (who didn't seem to have a problem with it) and in one case was specifically in support of the CCI. There's no disruptive behaviour: just harmless "chit chat" and constructive inputs. A sad, petty and pointless thing to do. DeCausa (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

A large number of admins appear to take the view that Talk page access is left for blocked users to request an unblock, despite that not being written anywhere in policy, and as Martin has been chatting quite a bit lately so there is unfortunately always a risk that TPA might be switched off. (And I don't think consensus is required, doesn't that come under individual admin discretion?) Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:51, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I think it's more an issue that we have an admin that is calling something against policy that isn't actually against policy and presenting something as policy that isn't written in policy. We have admin's telling an editor that they will effectively block any return to Wikipedia until after the copyright investigation and cleanup is complete which is not only understandable but is actually protecting the encyclopedia from harm. Martin acknowledges that and says he is attempting to work within this block for copyright violations by reviewing the progress and discussing anything with reviewers that they may need him to. He says the investigation and cleanup has become almost stagnant which effectively makes this a permanent ban as he has been instructed to wait until the investigation and cleanup is finished before attempting an unblock request. Now we have his TPA revoked based on an admin's faulty view of proxying policy which means he cant discuss the investigation or cleanup even if he wanted to. The initial block was warranted, this block of access is not. --ARoseWolf 14:00, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I should clarify that I am not an admin myself, just giving my observations (as a talk page stalker) that the view that a blocked editor's talk page should only be used for requesting an unblock, or working towards an unblock, seems to be quite widespread among admins. But until the policy is changed or updated, I agree that removal of TPA seems unjustified in this instance.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Cabayi: Can you respond to the objections and the views that you might have acted outside normal policy? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping Ritchie333. I too got an email but I've been short of time in the last day to handle it.

Taking just the relevant clause of the policy, "Editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page", I'm of the view that the edits following the warning at #Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling were continued abuse.

I'd got about as far as deciding to ask Diannaa for an opinion on the email, but since this discussion is here... Diannaa? - Cabayi (talk) 15:33, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

As Martin indicates in his email he'd like it posted...

Martin's email

Dear Cabayi, Apologies for emailing you like this, although this does not seem to be a violation of my current block. I would be very grateful if you did not respond by revoking this ability to email other editors. If you would prefer me to email another Administrator, and request that they copy this email onto my Talk page, I would be happy to do so. I think it might have been clearer to all if the original block notice had said clearly: "Your Talk page must be used only for specifically for asking about the block or appealing it, or working on fixing the problem, not for general discussion." I am also sorry for adding material to my Talk page not related to requesting an unblock. After 206,023 edits, old habits die hard. Editors who have become fronds, over the course of 15 years, probably expect a reply to their messages of support. I was told that it would not be wise for me to request an unblock until the CCI on my edits had been completed. There is no apparent timescale for this and indeed it seems to have largely stalled and been forgotten about. I realise that is not your problem. Yes my request about the Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling article was indeed a suggestion for a proxy edit and I took that warning to heart, even though it was from a fellow editor and not Administrator. The other suggested edits, for those other articles, arose from direct discussion with other editors, mostly connected with how to avoid copyvio. Indeed the blocking editor User:Diannaa herself said this: "If you could work on how you would modify it to add in the missing details, make decisions on which wikilinks to include and which details to include and how you would word the subsequent finished text, that would be helpful." So I think your suggestion that my Talk page has accumulated "150k of chit-chat", purely because of me, seems a little unfair. As you will realise, I am no longer able to archive anything. I think we both know that if I was really interested in making "proxy edits" I would probably use more subtle methods. A request for me to remove any Talk page content deemed to be "inappropriate" would be wholly and immediately complied with. Now I can no longer even do that. I do hope you could reconsider this block of TPA. Many thanks for your time. Regards Martin.

I didn't say the chit-chat was purely down to Martin, and did consider (and discard the idea of) page protection to prevent editors steering Martin off-course. Cabayi (talk) 17:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for responding, @Cabayi. I hate unnecessary pinging but thank Ritchie for doing it in this case. It's been a long week. First, I want to say that I appreciate you immensely. Anyone that knows me knows those aren't just idle words. Your tireless efforts to benefit the community and encyclopedia as both an administrator and a member of Arbcom can not be understated. And you still find time to contribute as a fellow editor. That being said, we are all human. I disagree with the revoking of TP privileges based on principles. You stated that "Editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page" is the basis for revoking TPA. In the block notice above it states "You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abuse of editing privileges." When I click on the link for "abuse of editing privileges" it takes me to WP:DE. I want it pointed out that, to my knowledge, no one has complained that Martin's giving his solicited, not soliciting, opinion on this page was disruptive, certainly not those that were on the other end of that opinion. And this can not be construed as proxy editing because neither did Martin ask for anyone to edit for him nor could it be reasonably assumed that those editors would believe that they had no choice other than to edit in accordance with what Martin's suggested advice. His suggestions would be included in any normal evaluation that any editor is expected to take into consideration when editing in a constructive manner. That leads into my second concern. When looking at the block log for the revoking of TPA we get a second reason for this action, "Revoking TPA for soliciting WP:PROXYING." As discussed, what Martin did is not the definition of "soliciting" another editor to proxy edit for them WP:PROXYING. Therefore the reason of for the revocation is invalid as none of the edits were disruptive nor were they soliciting for a proxy edit. No offense, and I truly mean this, to you Cabayi, but if all it takes is the discretionary opinion of an administrator that a policy violation has occurred to remove talk page access rather than actually following what the letter of the policy states then we have greater issues than a copyright blocked editor giving their solicited opinion on their own user talk page. --ARoseWolf 17:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf, all admin actions are at the discretion of an admin. WP:ADMINACCT requires that the admin explains their action and is willing to discuss it. Well, here I am.

Ritchie333, thinking on Martin's email and his obvious good-intent, I'm coming around to the idea of swapping the TPA revocation for an editnotice on this page reminding editors that Martin is constrained in his use of the talk page, that Wikipedia isn't social media and that if their edits aren't about the CCI or a block appeal they should give it a miss. Your 2¢ please? Cabayi (talk) 21:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

In regards to my statements, and I am only responding because I was pinged, I am not at all saying that some discretion shouldn't be given but that discretion should always be firmly rooted in the literal interpretation of policy while also maintaining a connection with the very human side of this community, especially when specific policies are given as a direct reason for the action and especially when that action effectively results to what amounts to a community ban on a fellow Wikipedian who is trying to find a way to still be constructive and show he can learn from his very obvious mistakes. I have nothing but respect for you, our admin corps and policy and I appreciate you willingness to be here and discuss this. I appreciate your willingness to reevaluate the action. I do not plan to say anything further unless I am pinged. --ARoseWolf 21:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, ^ this, very very much. I have massive respect for all the people involved here and I do get it that everyone is trying to do the right thing for the encyclopaedia. But I was very very sad to see it come to this and I very very much hope that we can pull back from this brink: I very much like the last few comments here, which reinforce that hope. Cheers DBaK (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I strongly believe that restoring TPA for Martin would improve the good spirits on Wikipedia, and would do no harm, per Floq below. Please try, Cabayi. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:25, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• I'm not Ritchie, but if you'd value another opinion, I'd recommend restoring talk page access, and (frankly) not getting too worked up about people saying hi, etc. Martin is still a Wikipedian, and isn't banned; he's still a part of our community. Since the block has stopped the disruption - and to be clear I don't contest the actual block - I don't see removing talk page access as preventing harm to the encyclopedia. I'd like to see Martin encouraged (and advised on how) - but not forced at threat of talk page removal - to get unblocked, and help out more at the CCI. But until then, I would suggest not policing the contents of this talk page. Unless there is proxying, but I don't see discussions about the CCI case to be proxying. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abuse of editing privileges.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Cabayi (talk) 11:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Martin, I've restored your TPA. Your email shows you get it (for lack of a better way of phrasing it) and keeping the TPA block longer would be WP:POINTY. If you feel an editnotice would be helpful I'll add one. I hope your CCI stuff is resolved soon. Cabayi (talk) 11:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Cabayi. I'm glad that you've changed your mind, as it means I won't be immediately resigning from the project. I assume that outcome is also satisfactory to you. I think this interlude, over the past 2 days. was wholly unnecessary, for the reasons given above by me and seven other Talk page watchers. But I would respectfully suggest that policy around TPA might need to be clarified, so that blocked editors like myself know exactly what is and what is not permitted. I intend to continue to discuss possible improvements to those articles where I have made copyright violations, provided fellow editors think that's a sensible thing to do. I do not intend that any of my suggested re-writes are directions for "proxy" edits, to be made on my behalf by other editors. They were and still are intended to be a means of showing that I understand the importance of copyright and to demonstrate that I can add material that is not in breach of copyright. This has been a conscious decision to at least do something, instead of just sitting on my hands waiting for the CCI to complete. Other editors seem to have been supportive of this endeavour. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC) p.s. in my email to you the phrase "Editors who have become fronds" was meant to read "Editors who have become friends". Without friends Wikipedia is, in my view, a very dismal place indeed and probably a complete waste of time.

Ferntastic news. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:38, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

A-ha! But yes, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:02, 16 November 2022 (UTC) ... with fronds like these, who needs enemas...

I've just gotten caught up on this after having been traveling and off-wiki for several days. In one fish's opinion, the concern about "chit-chat" should never have been a part of the considerations in evaluating TPA (but then again, I'm biased). Floq already pointed this out, but I see no good reason to go all WP:MALVOLIO on the theory that someone who is blocked must also wear sackcloth. As noted, I previously cautioned Martin about the proxying issue, and I agree that this should be taken seriously going forward. Myself, I'm going to interject when I can, if third parties come here requesting something that would end up as proxying. However, I see that #Church of St Mary Magdalene, Newark-on-Trent was linked to as one example of where this occurred. I cannot for the life of me see how that fits. It was an effort to contribute positively to the CCI work, and seems to me to have had nothing to do with proxying about content unrelated to the CCI. If Cabayi or anyone else can explain it to me otherwise, I'm very interested, but absent an explanation, I have to regard that as not really proxying. (I agree with all the other examples cited.) I think this is important, so that mistakes by Martin, by me, or by anyone else trying to help, don't get repeated. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you missed all the fun. But we must be grateful that Cabayi changed their mind, after 2 days and 13 minutes.... else I might not be here at all. Just to be clear, WP:PROXYWP:PROXYING covers....

1. suggesting that someone makes an edit, roughly, along the lines of a suggestion?
2. suggesting a named editor makes an edit exactly as suggested?
3. a named editor making a edit exactly as instructed?
4. something else?
5. all of the above?

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

(Clearly, when I'm not here, everything goes bad.) Actually, it's WP:PROXYING. Whether suggesting or instructing doesn't matter so much as whether it's part of helping with the CCI (permitted, and a good thing to do), or about some kind of edit unrelated to the CCI. The latter is a no-no because it's tantamount to editing stuff that you've been blocked from being able to edit, sort of like taking an end-run around the intention of the block (even if the edit were otherwise an improvement). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

"Lock 'em out, I say. Work exceptional hours or you're fired!" --A long Musk. (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2022 (UTC) ??

I see. So just to provide a purely hypothetical example... if I pointed out here that an anon IP had made an edit to Dylan Thomas suggesting that John Berryman had been with Thomas when he died, but that this was wholly refuted on page 99 of Thomas (2008), would that be PROXYING for which I should be blocked? Of course, we don't yet know how many copyvio blunders I've made over at Dylan Thomas do we. Nor which may have been repaired. Do we? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:20, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying that I think it makes sense, but you should not post that. Unless DT were still alive, in which case it would probably be acceptable to warn about a BLP violation (but of course it would be strange to have content about who was with someone when they died if they were still alive). It's obvious that this gets a little silly, because it's pretty obvious that someone should revert the IP, but you will be criticized for proxying if you post about it here, so long as it's unrelated to the CCI. It's best if you don't do it, just as a practical matter. And if anyone blocks you over this, I will make it my mission to get them desysopped. But don't do it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I mean, your personal take on PROXYING looks quite reasonable, even from my perspective. A shame it's not part of Wikipedia policy. Or if it is, that's not a bit that's clearly written down? But then "at an Administrator's discretion" is written down, so we're all fine (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 23:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

If I say something, and you think it's reasonable, then we are clearly both wrong. I think everyone should be discreet. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

And I guess I can just idley gloat over all that vandalism that daily progresses down the Generation Game conveyor belt that is my relentless Watchlist. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:42, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

When I've gone through periods of being annoyed at Wikipedia, I've intentionally ignored vandalism etc on my own watchlist. It's only a website. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's my anon IP vandalism on your Talk page that I really miss. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC) p.s.. I must remember not to try a hand of five-card draw with you if ever I'm in Wisconsin

Yes, you would need that like a hole in the head. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

It's only a website – per @Tryptofish above – yes, absolutely, this! Wisdom. I feel that I need to say that, along with its close relative It's only an encyclopaedia, to myself several times every visit and I should have said it to myself many many more times between 2002 and now. Sheesh. I sometimes cannot fathom its addictive effect on me ... I am clear that I am sometimes better off logged out and baking or playing the trumpet or whateverthehell! But it's complicated. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 13:05, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. And it's also a heartache, and a lost cause and a real bitch!, etc. etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm now offering free tattoos of "It's only a website!" to anyone who wants one on their butt. Highly recommended. Actually just a trick to see other people's butts. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, has the ring of truth about it. --Norman Buttkiss (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Personally I want a tattoo that simply say's "DON'T!" (With the exclamation point.) I probably need it on top of my hand where I can see it as I type. Right now it's just a flashing sign in my brain that comes up every time I feel like typing out something that may be contentious. It also has musical notes as I see it in my mind and I sing those notes as I hit backspace. This happens a lot. I am a bit of an anomalous mystery but don't worry, most of you are shielded by a screen and therefore not subject to the full force of my colorful enigmatic life and philosophies. You should count yourself lucky. --ARoseWolf 14:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

And that would be a Rose Tattoo! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

e.g. Braunston: I made a few edits there, over 8 years ago. It's shame to see it tonight now the target for mindless silly vandalism. If I risk censure for simply mentioning this, so be it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:47, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Archiving - request for help

It seems that blocked editors are not permitted to archive any of their Talk page old threads. I imagine that this is not an issue for those who have previously set up auto-archiving. I was wondering if I am permitted to request another editor to archive on my behalf and/or to set up auto-archiving, just to make the length of this Talk page slightly less unwieldy. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

You can safely do either one, whichever you prefer. I'm reasonably sure you can still set up auto-archiving yourself, since it only requires an edit to your own talk page. Or if you identify which threads to archive, and whether they go in archive 16 or 17, someone can do that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Floquenbeam. I've always been wary of auto-archiving, from the technical point of view, but I might try and tackle that. But that kind of begs the question - if I'm allowed to set up auto-archiving, why am I prevented from doing it manually? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Because in auto-archiving, it is a bot who is editing pages besides your talk page. Manually, you're trying to edit another page besides this one. Floquenbeam (talk) 19:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that bit! I just didn't see the huge risk in being able to send stuff to my Talk page archive. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see. It's probably just because it would be too difficult, with too little payoff, to change the software so one could only edit one's talk page and that talk page's archives, but nothing else, while blocked. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, technical limitations, I guess. The same reason that editors in my position can't be given access to one article at a time. How useful that might be? But you know what they say, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going" .... (down the pub, in my case). Martinevans123 (talk) 19:43, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Anyway, I'd really appreciate it if anyone, who has about 45 seconds to spare, could archive February's threads over to this year's page Archive 16, i.e. from "Gaming" to "Well, that was fun.." (...although I'm sorry to lose those links to Syl and Norma, both sadly missed). Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:20, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Wow, thanks Floq. As it was you, it was probably less than 20 seconds! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

As a courtesy to you and with your permission I'll assist with archiving your talk page at your request unless someone else has already offered to do that on a continuous basis. --ARoseWolf 13:42, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Ah, thank you so much ARose. Please could you do March? i.e. "It's the most wonderful time" to "ITN recognition for Taylor Hawkins". Many thanks indeed. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:14, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done --ARoseWolf 18:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Much appreciated. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Dear ARoseWolf. Could you possibly archive another month, from "New message from JalenFolf" to "Pink Floyd has an RFC"? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

CCI

Thanks to all the following editors for their diligence at the CCI: Spicy, PMC, Ovinus, Ritchie333, StartGrammarTime, Drmies, Sennecaster, Moneytrees, Diannaa, SandyGeorgia, Nigel Ish, KJP1, Berrely, XOR'easter, ,The4lines, Trainsandotherthings, XtraJovial, ♠Vamí_IV†♠, /wiae, and of course anyone I have missed. Very sorry I can't help yet. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Karl Jenkins

Hi Moneytrees. Thank you again for your hard work checking and clearing up after me at the CCI. Might I attempt a re-write here of that paragraph at Karl Jenkins? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Sure, here's a non-primary source too. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 19:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. It's usually easier combining multiple sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

What was left of my addition was this:

"The Peacemakers, a choral work by Jenkins, features texts from Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., the Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela, Anne Frank and Mother Teresa, as well as words from the Bible and the Qur'an with some new text specially written by Terry Waite. On the 2012 record the London Symphony Orchestra is joined by different vocal forces including Rundfunkchor Berlin, the City of Birmingham Youth Chorus, and the 1000-strong "The Really Big Chorus" made up of members of UK choirs from across the country brought together in one day, in one studio, to contribute to two movements on the album. Guest artists include violinist Chloë Hanslip, soprano Lucy Crowe, Davy Spillane on Uilleann pipes, Indian bansuri player Ashwin Srinivasan and jazz musicians Nigel Hitchcock and Laurence Cottle."

so that could be re-written:

"Jenkins' choral work The Peacemakers, features texts from Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., the Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela, Anne Frank and Mother Teresa, as well as extracts from the Bible and the Qur'an. There is also new text specially written by former Church of England envoy Terry Waite. The 2012 record features the London Symphony Orchestra and choirs which include the Rundfunkchor from Berlin and the City of Birmingham Youth Chorus. "The Really Big Chorus", a UK choir composed of 1,000 voices from across the country, contribute to two movements and were recorded in the studio in a single day. Guest artists include jazz musicians Nigel Hitchcock and Laurence Cottle, violinist Chloë Hanslip, soprano Lucy Crowe, Davy Spillane on Uilleann pipes and Indian bansuri player Ashwin Srinivasan." The names can't be re-written, of course. I'm not sure the sequence of text, then choirs, then guest musicians should be changed? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The only bits that I think might be used from AllMusic are:

"The present work is connected in general then with The Armed Man... What the work lacks is a true narrative... Whatever Jenkins may or may not have been in the past, it has been difficult to charge him with diffuseness, but for all the sound and fury involved here, that's what happens this time around." Not too fond of their word "utterances". But some of that might be added as quote(s) by James Manheim?

Martin, the proposed rewrite is only a slight rewording of the original. It's still structurally the same sentences in the same order, which puts it firmly in the province of close paraphrasing. Content needs to be entirely in our own words to be acceptable. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I see. Then I'll try and think of some other words. Structurally it's also a lot of proper nouns? As I said, I think that particular order is quite important, as did Jenkins himself. But I suppose that has to be sacrificed in order to avoid copyvio. Any suggestions you can make would be very welcome indeed, e.g. how would you re-write "new text specially written"? Thanks for the advice. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, I think you'd be better off taking the tack of summarizing without going into every single detail, especially because this is intended for the article about Jenkins and not the song in specific. "Jenkins' choral work The Peacemakers features extracts from religious texts and works by notable humanitarians. The 2012 recording features the London Symphony Orchestra and several choirs, as well as guest vocalists and instrumentalists." summarizes the work appropriately without getting down into the weeds. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:00, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Yes, that would make things very much easier, if unremittingly bland. I guess it's a question of how one compares the significance of the record alongside the world premiere at New York City's Carnegie Hall. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

It's clearer and easier to read and has the bonus of not being a close paraphrase. I've integrated it with the article and rewritten the entire paragraph, which was also somewhat awkwardly-written. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks PMC. That certainly looks like an improvement to me. Let's hope we don't both get blocked for WP:PROXYING. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

My advice would be: (1) read the source; (2) put it to one side for a few minutes and get a cup of tea (other beverages are available); (3) write what you think it said, using your own words; (4) check back with the source, to correct any glaring errors; (5) publish your text; (6) leave it to other editors to make any further tweaks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:07, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, Guy. I will certainly try that. Publishing anything is a bit far off for me at the moment. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Dropping in to say hi!

Tryptofish has brought you some bitters with a twist! Enjoy!

Martin, I hope you're doing ok. I'm missing your work and your eyes. I hope your great sense of humour is holding up. Sending all best wishes up and west. Anna (talk) 16:24, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much. Anna. I was afraid that Cabayi's mini Blitz might have had a chilling effect here. Thankfully, my local Policy Wonkfather arrived, in the shape of Threesie, just in time. Here's a stanza, from a hymn I've just dashed off, called "Oh! for a closer walk with Jimmy":

What peaceful hours I then enjoyed!

How sweet their mem'ry still!

But they have left an aching void

The world can never fill.

... mine's a bitter (and slightly twisted), cheers. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Ah cheers, Ol' fishy. Just you wait until tomorrow....Gonna strike all the big red words, From my little black book..... Guess I'll change my name. Doctor Wu 123 (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2022 (UTC) *(blistering guitar solo by Walter Becker)

I'm not following all the drama - I'm not really on WP any more - my eyes can't take it. Cockney John from Moorgate misses you too. The WP is only one bubble of the world. Bubbles are a dangerous things in my view. Bubbles are how wars start. I have started trying to help on a botany website (no coding), with lots of old grannies. Sounds like a sweet bubble you might think, but I can assure you, it's no less pompous, warlike and viscious there. We all need to get out more, it appears. I have bought you are bitter (and slightly twisted). Cheers! (ps. Notice Jimmie isn't sliding from stage left these days, for which I am thankful.) Anna (talk) 16:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Drownin my Iranian sorrows down the fannub. That was a very long 9 minutes of extra time.

Cheers, Anna! Seems Kevin was right. Ah yes, pompous, warlike and vicious... but there are some bad points too, you know. I'm just a diary, hear what I say. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:22, 25 November 2022 (UTC) I think I went to the Lipid Islands once. Not a patch on Barry, mind you.

Beware of Lindt errors??

Pennance

Hello The4lines, thanks for your action at Pennance. Could I suggest the following re-write:

Baronet's Engine House, Pennance Consols

Pennance Mine is located on the southern slopes of Carn Marth, in the Gwennap Mining District, in an area that was worked by tinners as early as the 17th century. It was previously known as Wheal Amelia. According to Henry De la Beche, in his 1839 book Report on the Geology of Cornwall, it produced copper. This was corroborated by Robert Hunt in his 1857 report the Mineral Statistics of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Copper was produced until about 1873, in which year its output was 147 tons of medium grade ore.

I would welcome any suggestions for improvement. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:35, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Martinevans123, Hey Martin. Thanks for the rewrite, I've changed it a bit so it's less similar to the source and added it to the page. If someone wants to improve on this or has any suggestions, feel free. — Signed,The4lines |||| ^{(Talk) (Contributions)} 04:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

The4lines, thank you. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Purton, Lydney

Hello again The4lines, thanks for your action at Purton, Lydney. When I look at British Listed Buildings I see the statement: "All original material on British Listed Buildings by British Listed Buildings is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 UK: England & Wales License." Just for future reference, I wonder could you briefly summarise how I might tell if material at that site is protected by copyright or not? Many thanks for your help. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Hey Martin, that website is fine to copy from as long as it's attributed correctly. The thing is, its seems like the copied material is from this site, which is not ok to copy. I'm not sure if the website copied it or something, but that's why I had to remove it. Hope this helps. — Signed,The4lines |||| ^{(Talk) (Contributions)} 00:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm very surprised. So before I can use any material from British Listed Buildings, I have to check it's not been copied from british-history.ac.uk? BLB doesn't even mention that source. It says this:

Licence

Listed building data is obtained from three sources:

England: Historic England

Scotland: Historic Scotland

Wales: Cadw

All data obtained from official sources is © Crown Copyright and is used under the Open Government Licence.

I had assumed that the term "data" also includes descriptions. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I've done more digging and its seems like British Listed Buildings and british-history.ac.uk do not share any text. BLB is ok to copy from as long as you attribute it properly. The material I removed was from british-history.ac.uk and was copyrighted. — Signed,The4lines |||| ^{(Talk) (Contributions)} 02:23, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for explaining. But probably best not to simply copy from BLB, as their listings often appear quite dense and full of architectural terms? Could I suggest possibly something like this:

The manor farmhouse is a Grade II* listed building. It dates from 1618 and lies immediately above the Chepstow/Gloucester railway line which passes in a deep cutting at that point. It has a principal block which is parallel with the river and a deep wing which projects back to the north-east, with a small extension added in the 19th century. British Listed Buildings describes it as "an important survival, somewhat modified over the centuries".

The current text starts "Purton Manor, which stands on a cliff overlooking the Severn, dates back to the 16th century." But I'm not sure where that date comes from. Perhaps it was from british-history.ac.uk? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the date comes from british-history.ac.uk. "The low west range of the present house was probably built in the 16th century" British-history.ac.uk also says "The north-eastern ground- floor room has a moulded plaster ceiling and an overmantel bearing the date 1618" So 1618 is the earliest known date for the manor. As for your suggestion, I think the last sentence is unnecessary. But other than that, I think it's good. — Signed,The4lines |||| ^{(Talk) (Contributions)} 01:50, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for checking and adding. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:53, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

And many thanks, KJP1, for improving the refs. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:23, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Lincoln Cathedral

Hello The4lines, thanks for your action at Lincoln Cathedral. Could I suggest the following re-write:

The new organ was based on the 1885 design of Henry Willis. It was dedicated on 17 November 1898 (St Hugh's Day). Although it was intended to be the first electrically powered cathedral organ in the country, it had to be pumped manually, by soldiers of the Lincolnshire Regiment, because the power station for the city had not yet been commissioned.

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Looking at this, I think this is way too similar to the source. This is well in the range of close paraphrasing. Here's a comparison of both texts, the bolded words overlap from both texts:
The new organ, based on Willis's 1885 design, was dedicated on St Hugh's Day, 17 November 1898. It was intended to be the first British cathedral organ to be electrically powered. As Lincoln's power station had not yet entered service, however, it had to be pumped manually by soldiers of the Lincolnshire Regiment.

I don't think you fully understand that you MUST write it in your own words. This is really important Martin, especially if you want to be unblocked one day, you must show that you can write in your own words. I would follow the tips given by other editors above to make sure the text is written in your own words. — Signed,The4lines |||| ^{(Talk) (Contributions)} 03:44, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi The4lines. How would you put "St Hugh's Day", "17 November 1898" "power station" and "the Lincolnshire Regiment" in your own words? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

The source did contain valuable information, so I’ve reworded and reinserted. I hope it meets the need. Certainly, Earwig is now content, with this section, [72]. However, there remain close similarities with text on this site, [73]. It appears to be a blog and I can’t tell which came first. It’s by no means uncommon for other sites to copy from us - I’ve seen many examples with some of my own contributions! There are some hints that suggest the blog copied from here, e.g. the second sentence of the second para. of their introduction ends with “[5]”. This corresponds to the fourth sentence of the second para. of our lead where [5] is the link to Citation 5. In the blog it leads nowhere. An editor with more technical competence than me should be able to untangle it. KJP1 (talk) 07:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you KJP1. That's really very useful. I have copied your version here for reference:

This, together with other private gifts and a public subscription, allowed work to progress and on St Hugh's Day, 17 November 1898, the organ was inaugurated at a service attended by 4,700 people. Willis had intended that the organ be electrically-powered, the first organ in an English cathedral to be powered in this way. As the Brayford Wharf Power Station had not yet been completed, manual power was instead provided by infantrymen from the Lincolnshire Regiment.

I was struggling to find my own words for "Willis's 1885 design", "dedicated", "St Hugh's Day" "17 November 1898", "cathedral organ" "Lincoln's power station", "pumped manually" and "soldiers of the Lincolnshire Regiment." Martinevans123 (talk) 08:55, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

KJP1, Thanks for your rewrite, that will work perfectly. As for the blog in question, I'm almost certain that the blog copied from us. The "[5]” is a big indicator that they copied from us. I've seen that a lot with places that copy from us. Most likely, whoever was copying the page forgot to take it out. Martin, proper nouns like "St Hugh's Day" and "the Lincolnshire Regiment" don't have to be put in your own words. What I mean is you just reworded a slight bit. They were still basically the same sentences and sentience structure which puts it under close paraphrasing. — Signed,The4lines |||| ^{(Talk) (Contributions)} 00:19, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

No they don't have to be... because they can't be. As regards "sentience structure", I often find myself constrained by chronology. But thanks, anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Martin, I glance at your talk page, which is on my watchlist, from time to time to see how you're doing. And I have to be honest I'm completely shocked by this thread. I'm shocked by your text re-write at the begining of this thread and which clearly can't be used and which is exactly what you got in trouble for. It's got nothing to do with following a chronology or using the same words like St Hugh's day. You've followed the original almost exactly. Compare it with what KPJ1 wrote it's poles apart. But what I'm even more shocked by is the "Oh well" thanks anyway at the end of your last post. This thread is absolutely at the core of your problems. I have to say it, I'm afraid. I can't see you ever being unblocked until you get that. Do you really not see what you did wrong in your original text and how you could avoid doing it? DeCausa (talk) 19:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

"De", always great to have a bit of encouragement. Very sorry to hear you are shocked. No, I really was struggling to find my own words for "Willis's 1885 design", "dedicated", "St Hugh's Day" "17 November 1898", "cathedral organ" "Lincoln's power station", "pumped manually" and "soldiers of the Lincolnshire Regiment." In this case the chronology could have been swapped around a bit, although KJP1 also thought that not necessary. I'm extremely grateful for KJP1's example re-write which teaches me a good lesson. But I'm not too sure I'll benefit from more scolding, sorry. As for being unlocked, the pace of the CCI suggests that I won't actually be around if and when that ever happens. Perhaps you'd care to offer your judgment on St Mark's, Mayfair below? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Good luck and don't worry. I'm taking you off my watchlist. DeCausa (talk) 19:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

You're sure? I could send Paypal? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:24, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd also like to thank The4lines, of course, for their patience and encouragement. But I guess you won't see this. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Hello

Just a general-purpose Hello of Encouragement'n'Goodwill™. I hope that leaving it here does not break any rules. Cheers, DBaK (talk) 08:25, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks DBaK. Yes, I hope so too. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Songbird

RIP Anne Christine Perfect. For you, there'll be no more crying. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

"Crazy 'Bout You Baby": originally from Christine Perfect (1970): (Little Walter) Christine Perfect – vocals, keyboards; Top Topham, Rick Hayward – guitar; Martin Dunsford – bass guitar; Chris Harding – drums; John Bennett, Derek Wadsworth, Terry Noonan – brass arrangements.

Also.... My linter won't lint (Lazy Lester – harmonica)

December music

December songs

Today, we sang Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme twice, after a short trip to Paris with great opera and symphony, - enjoy! -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:42, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Today, we sing for a Marian feast, I learned that Yvonne Ciannella died, the soprano who impressed me in my first night at the opera, and as she died in March, sadly no Main page reverence is possible, - at least she had a good DYK, at a time when opera singers were considered interesting. I'm proud today that Christiane Hörbiger made it to that corner, and happy that we celebrate the birthday of Jean Sibelius again. Please check out Volodymyr Kozhukhar whom I nominated for it. - I heard an excellent Christmas concert yesterday, by Tenebrae, and a short excerpt of them singing "Deo gracias" is also linked from my talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:28, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Hit it, Sister! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2022 (UTC) "There's no way of escaping... it's a holiday!"

Lovely scene! - Today was a day rich in music, with two new pictures, and also rich in WP:QAI contributions on the Main page: the TFA, 2 DYK and 2 RD with members as principal editors. The church pictured there (not by me, nice snow dust and tall evergreen) comes with memories, detailed on my talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks as ever, Gerda, for your positive posts. Another contributor to my Talk page suggests to me that I might as well just get my coat. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd be left in the cold, please don't. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:21, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

New lead pic here, of yesterday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I am experienced in helping blocked editors editing, DYK? Easter egg tree was developed in a German sandbox, and I checked it out and published it here, - it went to DYK for Easter that year, and then the author was set free. - You can work in the German Wikipedia, and only copy the code to this talk to try out the links (but please don't hit "publish"). If there's no rush, it could also just sit in a sandbox until you can move it yourself. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah thanks, Gerda. That's very ingenious. I guess I could also always use my "Pwll Tywod" at cy.wiki (or any other language variant?) But for now I'm quite happy posting suggestions for re-writes here, where other editors can easily scrutinise them. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

That's fine! - Latest pics, with an opera discovery and some snow. Today my talk has a DYK that was planned for 22 November, among the recent deaths the author of Duck, Death and the Tulip, and now a choir pic of "our" concert last Sunday, likely to become next year's lead image. Enjoy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Enjoy the season, dreaming of peace! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Gerda. But remember that Wikipedia is full of risks...! Don't make unnecesary journeys!! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:04, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

can't see, asks me to confirm that I'm adult --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I can vouch for you being an adult. It's not really "adult material"! Her name is Teresa Mannion at RTE Martinevans123 (talk) 17:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda.
For you Gerda: Best wishes for a peaceful 2023. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:45, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

---

Thank you so much, Martin, I'll place it among the treasures received, on my talk. Perhaps ping others to whom you wish the same. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:00, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Today, pictured, the soprano of our choral concert of the year. More in the context: User talk:Gerda Arendt#DYK for Talia Or, in case of interest. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Today I saw little flowers blooming! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

St Mark's, Mayfair

Hello again, Moneytrees. Thank you for your edit at St Mark's, Mayfair. Could I suggest this to re-start a section on "Music":

St Mark's has musical associations with Victorian opera, with the opera oratorio singer Sir Charles Santley and also with the composer Sir Arthur Sullivan. J. W. Elliott, a former organist at the church, composed the tune "Day of Rest" for the hymn "O Jesus I Have Promised".

Notable choral musician John Williams, who was organist in the 1950s, became the first Master of Music at the Tower of London. Margaret Cobb, also organist at the church, became the first woman to play the organ at a Promenade concert in the Royal Albert Hall. Other organists have included Charles Hart (1797-1859), D. Hodsoll (1871-1926) and Thomas Grosch (1900-1982).

The church as a three-manual organ by J. W. Walker & Sons Ltd which has recently been re-commissioned. There are plans to re-develop the instrument, with the assistance of organ builders Bishop and Son. The original organ, by Rushworth and Dreaper, was moved to Holy Trinity Brompton when St Mark's became redundant.

St Mark's has held concerts by the London Russian Music School and it has also been the venue for concerts by such musicians as violinist Nicola Benedetti, and other choirs and ensembles from the locality.

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:33, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I rephrased some of these additions slightly; I rephrased and cut some extra detail that was too close to the source. "The first Master of Music at the Tower of London" is close but is basic enough to not worry about a rewrite. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks Moneytrees. Unless I am mistaken, the material you cut or rephrased, that was too close to the source, was this:

Notable choral musician John Williams, who was organist in the 1950s, became the first Master of Music at the Tower of London. Margaret Cobb, also organist at the church, became the first woman to play the organ at a Promenade concert in the Royal Albert Hall. Other organists have included Charles Hart (1797-1859), D. Hodsoll (1871-1926) and Thomas Grosch (1900-1982).

The church as a three-manual organ by J. W. Walker & Sons Ltd which has recently been re-commissioned. There are plans to re-develop the instrument, with the assistance of organ builders Bishop and Son. The original organ, by Rushworth and Dreaper, was moved to Holy Trinity Brompton when St Mark's became redundant.

I am very keen to learn how those details might have been satisfactorily re-phrased. Similarly, I was wondering how the phrase "first Master of Music at the Tower of London" might be rendered in a way that wasn't "close." Many thanks for your help with this. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

There was some overlap with this source; I removed details and phrases that I felt was unneeded; there's limited phrasing here given the bareness of the facts, but it is possible to convey the core important information. The detail about St Mark's becoming "redundant" was close to the source and was also ambiguous in its meaning to me. The big about "the other organists" wasn't copied and is fine, it's just that I'm unsure of the reliability of the source cited to it, and meant to ask you more about it; doing some research, it seems the author has published books on organists, but I am unclear on what his relationship is with the publisher, it seems potentially self published? Or am I missing something? Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 07:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Moneytrees. That's a lot clearer. If you think those were "unneeded" details, then fine. As long as your trimming is not used as an argument that "I don't really understand copyvio". I had assumed that "redundant" could mean only Redundant church, to which I should have linked. This should really be mentioned in the History section. I also had doubts about that Henshaw source, so thank you so much for looking a bit deeper. It could be a WP:SPS. I'm guessing that one or more of his books might contain these details. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

References

p.s. John Williams (1920-2002) might also deserve an article in his own right. Here are obituaries for him at The Times and The Daily Telegraph.

Request for archiving

Could anyone possibly archive another month, from "New message from JalenFolf" to "Pink Floyd has an RFC"? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I cut April to the archive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:25, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Gerda. There might be a lot more archiving to do, before too long. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

How is this: I archive it all (until here), and then you can delete here what you think is no good today's reading? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Let's just stick to one month at a time? If you could do "When ye go away" to "RIP Lester Keith Piggott" I would be very grateful. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda, for leaving me with Tractor porn corner. And "The Butterfield Diet Plan" will be a must over the holiday period. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Uley

Hi again, Moneytrees. Thank you for your edit at Uley. Could I suggest this as a replacement:

* Downham Hill, which lies just to the west, is known locally as 'Smallpox Hill' because of the smallpox isolation facility which stood on the top of the hill many years ago. It is believed to have been one of the earliest isolation hospitals in England. Masonry from the buildings remains visible at the site.

There are also remains, near the hilltop, of a tower-like dwelling constructed in 1346 during the reign of Edward III.

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

References

I tweaked this a little more and then added it. I just want to note, in an above section you say you're going to appeal after the CCI is completed-- unless I missed that being a voluntary thing on your end, you don't need to wait for it to be finished; there's a few editors who've been blocked and the unblocked while their CCI was still open. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:46, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I see, yes, thank you. You added Near the hilltop are remnants of a tower-like dwelling constructed in 1346 during the reign of Edward III. Is this version less close to the source? And the other tweaking was also to avoid violation of copyright? I'm surprised you didn't want to link to isolation facility, but I'm assuming that's not a copyvio issue. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

p.s. the first source also has "Uneven ground on the north flank of the hill is associated with medieval rabbit breeding, known as warrening." Given that we have articles on both Cuniculture and Medieval cuisine, perhaps this detail might also be usefully mentioned? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

As regards unblocking, is there anything written down as policy? Or is it wholly a matter of "Administrator discretion"? It was my firm understanding that the consensus was that I should not request an unblock until the CCI was complete. The thread #Thoughts on unblocking Martin hardly came to any clear conclusion. Very recently, at #Lincoln Cathedral above, DeCausa has suggested that I have no real understanding of copyright violation or how to avoid it. So I'm really not sure that any request from me would be welcomed. I realise that the CCI is not being done for my benefit, but "to protect the project". But I have no way of helping it or of ever making it complete. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Here's my advice about that last part, for whatever it's worth. For the time being, I'd suggest that you continue to do as you have been doing, working here on your talk page to help with the rewriting. Strictly speaking, the completion of the CCI is not necessarily the time marker for making an unblock request, although it's prudent to take your time before making a request. (Requesting too soon is likely to backfire.) What you just noted about what DeCausa said is actually a good pointer to what you should focus on now. Here's what I mean by that. As you post suggested rewrites, you should work towards where editors working on the CCI will say something like yes, that's exactly the way that I am going to put it on the page. Right now, what's happening is they are taking what you suggest, and cleaning it up further. As long as they are continuing to feel like they need to work on it some more, beyond what you have provided, editors will see that as Martin hasn't really learned the lesson completely. I suggest that you should set, as a goal for yourself, getting to where you really understand how to rewrite the content in a copyright-compliant way, on your own. When the community is satisfied that you have learned how to do that, on your own, is when the community will be happy to unblock you. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for some clarification from Moneytrees on the "clean up" on these last two. I'm sorry, but I'd never presume that editors working on the CCI would ever say something like yes, that's exactly the way that I am going to put it on the page. I'm just trying to avoid copyvio. But I appreciate your positive advice. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have said I truncated the hilltop sentence in a way I thought was more concise, no copyright issue there. I didn't notice that isolation hospital wasn't linked in the article, I've added it now along with the bit about rabbit breeding. Note the comparison between the sentence I added and the quote from the source. Tryptofish gives good advice above, my thoughts mostly mirror his. This block isn't a community ban or anything, so an individual admin can unblock you. The best case scenario for you and the CCI is you getting unblocked and then assisting in identifying and rewriting issues at the CCI. Regardless of what path you take, if you want to be unblocked you must provide reassurance and that you have a better understanding of copyright. The repeated re-writes is a viable way to make progress towards an unblock, although more time is still needed from where I'm at. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:24, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much for clarifying that, Moneytrees. I think I do already have a better understanding of copyright. Hopefully I can actually demonstrate that with practical examples here. And I would be happy to help at the CCI if unblocked. If this is a valid pathway from this block, I'm surprised it's not clearly written down somewhere. But I fully agree with you and Trypto that the best option for now is to post more re-writes here and ask appraisal from other editors. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:21, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate you, Martin. I know this entire process has been frustrating for you but I believe you will be a better editor on the other side of it. I also appreciate the ones working on the CCI. No one can ever doubt or discount your contributions to improving the encyclopedia. Trypto almost always gives amazing and accurate advice and I have come to appreciate him more over this past year. Anyway, I'll be starting my winter hibernation here soon and I just wanted to let you know that I see the improvement you are making, Martin. --ARoseWolf 14:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikibats hibernating in a R. L. Stevenson biography?

Thank you for your very kind words, ARoseWolf. Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel after all... Hibernation here?? Does that involve logging into a nice cosy article and going to sleep on the keyboard? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:13, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately it involves leaving Wikipedia for a few months. I hold off as long as I can but the winters are pretty harsh and at some point we have to conserve power as much as possible with the shorter days. I have to calculate our fuel down to the gallon. We do that towards the end of our Summer. At the same time I also calculate our dry provisions and other necessities to get us through the Winter. We don't have roads, we have trails and the limited "roads" (really just wide trails made by our equipment) we do have are located around the lake. We have two airstrips though only one is really operable at the moment and we have a float plane dock so that's the primary way we receive bulk supplies. For anything we need, and can't find in nature, outside the window of air supply we dog sled to closest community where we can get the few supplies we need. We can either pay for the supplies are trade for them with the latter being the primary way of things here. That's just a glimpse into my world outside Wikipedia --ARoseWolf 17:13, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Wow, I had no idea. How amazing. Thank you for putting Wikipedia copy-vio into some perspective. Very best wishes for the Winter. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I honestly wasn't really trying to put anything in perspective but thank you for your best wishes. And my hope is for an amazing year ahead for you, Martin. --ARoseWolf 18:28, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure you weren't, ARoseWolf, but that's what real life tends to do. Thank you so much. Your sensible and considerate comments here mean so much to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:42, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Simon McBurney

Hi again Moneytrees. I was going to try a re-write at Simon McBurney of the brief details I added 7 years ago about the production The Encounter, but the source there no longer appears to work and I am unable to find an alternative at EIF. I guess it must still have been working back in September. Perhaps this one could be used instead. I was keen to add some detail, as the production has no article. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

It's archived here. I tend to remove copied plot summaries without rewording or with minimal rewords, as I consider the summaries non-essential detail. I think it's better to write a summary only if you're familiar with/seen the play rather than copying it from a source. In general avoiding plot summaries for stuff you haven't seen is a good way on cutting down on violations. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for that archive. The words in question are these:

"McBurney tells the story of photographer Loren McIntyre, who in 1969, found himself lost amongst the remote Korubo people of the Javari Valley, on the border between Brazil and Peru."

I also thought the fact it was a World Premier was significant. And that it had greater relevance in the article as it supported the lead image in the info box and the adjacent image in the main body. I must admit I had always thought that plot summaries were "in the public domain". So, you're saying that I unless I have actually seen a play/ film/ programme myself I can't add a plot summary? Even then, if I have seen it, and I see a plot summary that looks to me 100% accurate, I can't copy it? But how can anyone else possibly know if I have seen it or not? You also seem to be saying that, in this case, it's just "non-essential detail", not a copyvio? Thanks for your help with this. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I re-added the bit about the premiere. The passage is a copyvio on the smaller end but should still be re-worded. No, film plot summaries are not in the public domain/compatible with Wikipedia's license unless otherwise specified. You'd think there'd be a site other than Wikipedia that would release them, but nope. From experience, I know that users copying plot summaries from sources for media they haven't seen is one of the more common forms of copyright violation. This is sometimes done to make the article less "bare" ensure that a newly created article is seen as "notable"; I advise editors that plot summaries don't actually contribute to notability, so one isn't always required. An article won't sink without one, which is why I consider it "non-essential". As for an article about an actor, I think it's usually more important to note them starring in/being involved with something rather than what the media was about. Of course, that can vary between cases, like if a role was important to their image and development of their career etc.

But there's obviously no way to know for sure if someone has seen something or not. Of course, you can add a plot summary based on a source synopsis, but if you're looking to avoid copyright issues, it may be best to avoid doing so. I hope that makes sense. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

That's all very clear, Moneytrees. Many thanks for that explanation. Does that mean personal plot summaries (which obviously require the editor to have seen the work) are just WP:OR... is it still necessary to provide a source and re-write the material? And thanks for adding "which premiered." It's pretty basic for "plot" though, isn't it: not even a synopsis, more just a one-sentence description? I see that the Loren McIntyre article says this:

"In 2015-2016 Complicite staged a one-person performance by Simon McBurney called The Encounter, which was based on "Amazon Beaming" Loren McIntyre's 1969 journey lost among the people of the remote Javari Valley in Brazil. It has played to sold-out audiences in London."

That might be a useful addition, as it's more about McBurney than McIntyre, although I guess you will say that the phrase "lost among the people of the remote Javari Valley in Brazil" is a copyvio? Thanks again. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Kind of? There's been long debate over plot summaries being original research, but there's no uniform consensus on the matter unless I'm missing something. So a source for some plot summary section in an article about a film isn't required, but a source should be used if you're noting an actor starred in whatever media and also provide a summary of their role/ that media. The sentence from the McIntyre article was added in this Feb 2016 ip edit, and yes that part of the sentence is copied from the source so it should be reworded. I replaced the wording with "about photographer Loren McIntyre becoming lost in the Javari Valley in Brazil and his experiences with locals", so that's that issue solved. Let me know if you have further questions. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

OK, many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Maggot (rapper)

Hi again Moneytrees. Thanks for your edit at Maggot (rapper). Could I suggest this, in place of those 21 words:

The company arranges up to 95 per cent of the value of the invoices of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) to be bought by third-party finance houses.

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Done. Note "up to 95 per cent of the value" is similar to the source but I would consider it to fall under the narrow "limited ways to say it" category. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 07:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. I'm glad we agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Holy Trinity Church, Torbryan

Hi again Moneytrees. This material has been marked as a copvio from the BBC source:

"... two of the panels, showing images of Saint Victor of Marseilles and Saint Margaret of Antioch. Another panel, damaged during the theft, bears an image of a female saint. The CCT said it feared the panels could be sold abroad."

The three proper nouns can't be re-written. So I can suggest this instead:

".. two of the panels, containing paintings of Saint Victor of Marseilles and Saint Margaret of Antioch. Another panel, with an image of a female saint, was also damaged during the theft. The CCT was concerned that the panels could be taken out of the country and sold."

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

For reference, overlap with source: "In August 2013 thieves "hacked out" two of the panels, showing images of Saint Victor of Marseilles and Saint Margaret of Antioch. Another panel, damaged during the theft, bears an image of a female saint. The CCT said it feared the panels could be sold abroad"

"In August 2013 thieves "hacked out" two panels depicting Saint Victor of Marseilles and Saint Margaret of Antioch and damaged another that depicted a female saint." I merged the two sentences to be more concise, which allows the similar phrase to be cut down even more. Your rewrite is serviceable though and "The CCT was concerned that the panels could be taken out of the country and sold" is good, no issues there. I've added it to the article. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

That's great, Moneytrees. Yes, I was aware of the overlap. Thanks for demonstrating an improvement. It's good to be more concise anyway. I had thought about adding "... recovered by the Metropolitan Police Art & Antiques Unit, after being seen, in a sale online, by a collector." from this source. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I fit this into the existing sentence and modified it a bit, no copyright issue. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much Moneytrees. I now see that the Metropolitan Police and Art and Antiques Unit can both be linked if required. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Market Drayton railway station

Hello Trainsandotherthings. Thanks for your edit at Market Drayton railway station. Can I suggest this as a re-write:

In 1994 the site was sold for supermarket redevelopment, but the Nantwich and Market Drayton Railway Society was able to dismantle some of the buildings and artefacts.

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:47, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

That seems ok to me, I've added it to the article. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, Trainsandotherthings. That was the only source I could find with the year of 1994. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

References

I'm probably just in a complaining mood today, and I'll apologize in advance to Martin for making the comment I'm about to make. But first, on an entirely happy note, I want to observe that Martin provided a suggested rewrite that was entirely accepted by the editor who implemented it (and who, if memory serves, harshly criticized Martin at the time of the block). So thanks to Trainsandotherthings for implementing the edit, and a great big "good for you!" to Martin for this demonstration of progress in the right direction!

And now, I want to point something out that I noticed while viewing the edit, and again my apologies for being a Tryptopain about this. WP makes a big deal about CC-by-SA. And the SA (share alike) is about attribution. (Notice the relationship, conceptually, between the expectation of attribution and the prohibition against plagiarism.) Sometimes, when content is merged from one page to another, we do things to acknowledge the edit history of where the merged content came from. And we've all seen content added after extensive discussion with an edit summary of "from talk". As Martin is getting the hang of this, we are going to see suggested rewrites copied and pasted from this talk page into mainspace. And copied and pasted is a bit different from "I took what you suggested here and modified it further."

I'll hasten to add that I comprehend the idea of the implementing editor taking responsibility for the edit, so no one needs to explain it to me. But taking responsibility, and taking implicit credit, are two different things. And I'm also very sure that taking credit is the farthest thing from Martin's mind right now. But, as a matter of SA and edit history, I'm going to suggest that editors watching here consider noting in their edit summaries where they got the language from. [74]. Yes, I know that's a quibble, and I'm not criticizing anybody, but I think it's worth considering as a suggestion. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Holiday greetings

Viggo Johansen: Happy Christmas (1891)

X

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year

X

Frohe Weinachten und

alles gute zur neuen Jahr!

Wesołych Świąt i

Szczęśliwego nowego roku!

Linksmų Kalėdų ir

laimingų Naujųjų Metų!

– Sca (talk) 14:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, SCA. Sorry I can't reciprocate this year. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Persevere ! -- Sca (talk) 13:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Another year gone

		Best wishes for the holidays
		Wishing you and yours the best over the holiday season, and here's hoping 2023 won't bring as much global trauma as 2020, the worse 2021[75] & fecking 2022! Ceoil (talk) 04:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, Ceoil. Sorry I can't return the compliment this year. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC) ... RIP Wilko

All best wishes for a peaceful Christmas, Martin. Here's hoping for a new year's resolution x Anna (talk) 01:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much Anna. Very best wishes. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:09, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Christmas

Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda.
Best wishes for a peaceful 2023. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:45, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

---

For you Sca, Ceoil, Tryptofish, Moneytrees, ARoseWolf, DeCausa, The4lines, DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered, KJP1, Anna Roy, Ghmyrtle, Premeditated Chaos, Floquenbeam, Pawnkingthree, Ritchie333, Ianmacm, Ovinus, Diannaa, Deb, Softlavender, InedibleHulk, Yngvadottir, Smerus, Kieronoldham, Modernist, Andrew Davidson, Atsme, GoodDay, Andrew Davidson, Boing! said Zebedee, Valereee, Sennecaster, Girth Summit, Levivich, EEng, Doug Weller, PamD, John, Nick Moyes, AukusRuckus, PFHLai, The Rambling Man, Gareth Griffith-Jones, MarnetteD, Iridescent .... and anyone else I may have forgotten (or tried to forget about). This method saves on postage. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC) aaah.... it's Geraint!

A chi hefyd. Deb (talk) 12:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Merry Christmas! [76] ♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:13, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

lol. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

A chi hefyd! Valereee (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, and Happy Everything!!! DBaK (talk) 12:58, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Martinevans123. Have a wonderful holiday season and an awesome 2023. Cheers! -- PFHLai (talk) 13:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks - all best to you!--Smerus (talk) 14:17, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Merry Christmas Martin and have a great 2023! Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:33, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Cheers Porn King, as ever! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Martin! EEng 16:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

...and to you as well Martin. GoodDay (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Enjoy yours as well. Ovinus (talk) 17:15, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Martin! And all the best to you too. (And why are all these people here clearing phlegm out of their throats? At least, that's what I assume all these guttural noises are...) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:38, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm, not sure. But makes a pleasant change from blood, yellow bile and black bile. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:52, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Martin! And Good Yule to you, and the best of years in 2023! Yngvadottir (talk) 22:54, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Cheers, Yngvadottir Hope you have a Cool Yule too. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:33, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi Martin, sorry it's belated but thanks for the holiday wishes and wishing you happy holidays as well! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:34, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much. No worries. Gives me an excuse to link this from 1972's Stealers Wheel. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:44, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Christmas!

Same to you, Martin. All the best for 2023, too.--Kieronoldham (talk) 12:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the lovely card, Keiron! Looks like a very White Christmas for you. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:33, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

You're Welcome. I'll likely never be sufficiently EEng humor trained, but heads up!. Have a good one.--Kieronoldham (talk) 18:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Oooh... haven't heard them in a while! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

They're just teenage kicks, man (0:44-1:07), anyhow.--Kieronoldham (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

"How lucky can one guy be?" Martinevans123 (talk) 18:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• I will consider this ping of good cheer from you as a special Christmas gift, Martin, and raise my glass saying a chi hefyd 🫵🏻 !! 🎄🛷🎉🎁☃️🎄🫶🏻 Atsme 💬 📧 18:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks so much, Atsme. I do you hope you are well. Very best wishes to you. Here's the wholly under-rated Shawn Phillips from 1975. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• And a Mele Kalikimaka to you, old chap! Another year without being sitebanned; I'd say that was quite optimal. Be well, old sport. Softlavender (talk) 03:36, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

  Congratulations. Have a Mele Hufanga on me. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

• Happy Christmas Martin, and all best wishes for 2023. KJP1 (talk) 09:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks, KJP1. I really appreciate your re-writes. I trust you might be able to rescue a few more. Here's a heartfelt Christmas message from Sir Ian! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

  Haven't logged in for a few days - if it's too late for a merry Christmas, I'll wish you a happy new year. Cheers Girth Summit _(blether) 13:40, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

  It's a done deal, dude. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 27 December 2022 (UTC) [77]

• Martin, what a kind gesture. Thank you! I hope you had a marvelous weekend. This is only about the fifth time I've celebrated Christmas in my entire life and one of very few holidays I have ever observed outside of the Jewish festivals we were made to observe as children. Having a daughter born into US culture kind of changes things. Our gifts this year? They may seem so small to most but for us it is an act of love. Whether it's handmade tools that will help us around the homestead or hand drawn pictures depicting our favorite events from this past year, it makes it more special to me that it is made by the giver. For my part, I made cookies and pies, blueberry and strawberry, and we took them to the few families that live "near" us. For a solid five or six days our house smelled like berries. I may have snuck a few for myself in the process (lol). Fruits and berries are in such low supply that I stashed enough from the summer in cold storage and it was a tremendous success. It takes about seven to eight hours of hard sledding, round trip, to get to most with the furthest being about ten. My two brothers, my daughters father and our trainer were so gracious to do the sledding this year so we got the pies to their respective locations before Christmas day (Hey, if Santa can do it then so can I). I wish so many blessings for you, Martin, and everyone here in this community that I have always appreciated but have grown to love deeper because I have heard your Song's. I sing for and over each of you a song of health, strength, and hope for a more peaceful and prosperous 2023. --ARoseWolf 14:09, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks so much, ARoseWolf. "In a world like this is..." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Martin. What lovely images. I hope your Christmas was smashing, everything you could wish for. Joy and peace in 2023.

Although terribly late, I'm wishing you Happy Gravy Day! from Oz, anyway. Over Christmas–New Year, I've been lucky enough to be drinking white wine in the sun –toasting you, in spirit. (Don't have the musical sophistication I often see in evidence on your talk page, but these are sentimental favourites here; a little Welsh–Australian "cultural exchange".) Very best wishes, AukusRuckus (talk) 12:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice one! Great song. And he's so good, isn't he. His voice always reminds me of this guy. (Which is quite appropriate, really.) So just "chuck another Brizzie on the Christmas barbie"... or whatever it is you Bruces say! I'll have you know I learned to make gravy, off the telly, with this guy in the 70s. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 3 January 2023 (UTC) "Hey kids, can you see what it is yet?"

I'll see if can catch the resemblance in voices, when I get a chance to listen to a bit more. Great band name: Some of it is pretty nice. Did you mean these Bruces? Don't think Sir Les ever had a Bruce ... he was, more-or-less, a 'Bruce', I think. I may need to set you some revision homework for your Oz cliché / pop culture knowledge, at this rate. (Which has been amazingly good, if somewhat 'vintage', up to this point.) Oh god, Madge, did you have to go and spoil it all with that utter dog? "Comments are turned off"! Yeah, really? I wonder why? [Cue hollow laughter/tears of fury here] AukusRuckus (talk) 04:42, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Haha. Thanks so much. A very informative link. Sorry, my Oz culture learning stopped sometimes in the 1980s. Still got a few Oz heroes, of course. (But I did see the wonderful Split Enz when they played in Newport! lol) Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Miriam! What a treasure; 'course, I have to watch her through my hands / listen to her with my ears ready to be covered, being terrified of what she'll say or do next. And she rarely disappoints. I love her, but I'm a timid sort. The wonderful Enz were really our Kiwi neighbours, but Australians are quite shameless in annexing those we want to claim, so I'll accept the implied connection–and they did work and tour from here. You're one up on me, I never saw them live.

Your knowledge of antipodean stuff is pretty top notch I'd say, and I love me some retro 80s ... although I've never heard that song. And now I've read the WP article, I guess I know why! AukusRuckus (talk) 11:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, not a patch on the ice-cream van, of course. But what's that I see over there? A 36-second sample! A breach of copyright, no doubt. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

		Happy Holidays
		Hello, I wish you the very best during the holidays. And I hope you have a very happy 2023! Bruxton (talk) 20:29, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Bruxton! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

The Christmas gift you didn't know that you wanted...

Well, probably not - but here it is anyway...! Best wishes for Christmas Day - I hope that you received few socks and less sprouts. JezGrove (talk) 20:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much Jez! You're right, I didn't know. But a fitting tribute, I feel. You know me, always in need of more socks. The last I heard, our wonderful half-baked hard BREXIT means you have to get a permit to pick them yourself in Brussels. Or maybe in Rotterdam. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:18, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Something seasonal from a guitarist with even less finger function than Tony Iommi. I might need to chop off a couple of fingers myself to improve my playing at this rate - on the bright side, it couldn't make it any worse... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LMFS0h2S7w JezGrove (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah thanks, now that is class. Stéphane Grappelli too. A gem. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:27, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Boxing Day. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)